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Kelb_Panthera
2014-01-25, 02:23 PM
I was just reminded of a time someone asked what to do when their DM gave their party a staff of wishes.

My initial response was something to the effect of, "It's a trap. Find the biggest field you can, pick a random spot, and bury that sucker."

This got me to thinking, how do you all respond to your GM giving you what appears to be a free wish or wishes?

Slipperychicken
2014-01-25, 02:31 PM
I tend to roll my eyes at it. It's rarely good for games, right up there with the Deck of Many Things.

Mr. Mask
2014-01-25, 02:45 PM
"I wish for the horrible deaths of all things living and dead, with us being the last!" could be fun. Might get divine intervention.

hymer
2014-01-25, 02:53 PM
It depends on the character. My more naïve characters would try to use them to do some good in the world. Most of my characters are more pessimistic, though, and would keep the thing around and use it to resurrect fallen comrades.
I'd never of my own volition use it for anything other than replicating spells that I'd let my own players get. Using Wish to solve a problem seems boring to me. I'd rather have an adventure.

AuraTwilight
2014-01-25, 04:39 PM
It's probably, almost definitely a trap.

Still, I'd atleast use it once.

Adoendithas
2014-01-25, 05:05 PM
I would assume it to be a trap and sell it on the black market. It should earn quite a bit of money, and if it does happen to be trapped it won't hurt us.

Mono Vertigo
2014-01-25, 05:12 PM
I would assume it to be a trap and sell it on the black market. It should earn quite a bit of money, and if it does happen to be trapped it won't hurt us.

And then your archenemy or the BBEG in disguise, or just an utter and complete moron who also happens to be selfish, buys it and makes wishes that make your life miserable.
... or that's what I'd do if I were an evil GM who tried to trap you with free wishes and the party just sold the staff. :smallbiggrin:

inexorabletruth
2014-01-25, 05:21 PM
razzafrazzah… the internet ate my post. :smallmad: Harumph!

Anyway… as I was saying, I've never gotten wishes before, but I think I'd find the prospect exciting! I would expect, even hope, for an ironic twist.

After all, what is the point of being an adventurer if there isn't some world-ending catastrophe that you and only you can save the world from?


Regardless of whether or not you inadvertently caused said world-ending catastrophe. :smallredface:

Grod_The_Giant
2014-01-25, 05:57 PM
Depends a lot on the GM and how much of an old-school, "be paranoid or be dead" kind of game he runs. Best case, keep it and use it for things that won't wreck the campaign. (Resurrection? Sure. Insta-kill the BBEG? Not a chance). Worst case, start running in the opposite direction as fast as I can.

BWR
2014-01-25, 06:08 PM
I tend to roll my eyes at it. It's rarely good for games, right up there with the Deck of Many Things.

I love the DoMT. Heck, one of my characters has one and allows his family and close friends to draw from it upon reaching maturity. Sometimes bad stuff happens, but it has always ended up being a good story.
First time we encountered one, the wizard lost all his magic items, then the DM cheated a bit and had the 'soul trapped' effect transport us to Ravenloft. We had a blast.

As for wishes, it depends. In general I wouldn't have a problem with it, and I don't think any of my DMs would if we were a bit moderate in our use. Getting a +1 bonus to a stat or a lot of money or some magic item, fine. Try any shenannigans like wishing for more wishes or going for greed rather than story stuff, and I wouldn't like our chances.

In 20 odd years of playing D&D we haven't found many but they've been fine so far.
First time: We found a Ring of Wishes once. We didn't have Identify so we could only determine its effects through trial and error. The first wish gave us a meal. We then took it to be identified in a town. The guy doing it claimed it was a Create Food and Water ring that was out of charges. He offered to buy from us at a reduced price so he could recharge it. "No no, look what it can do: I wish for food" cried one of the PCs, wasting the last wish.
Second time: Found a magic dagger with one Wish charge. We saved it, and when we were going to go up against a lich, we spent an hour making what we hoped was an airtight wish to stop him. Of course, using this would ruin the DM's plans, so he ruled the Spell Turning ring also worked against the Wish, reflecting it back on me.
I can't recall how we got my PC up and running again, but I think it was rather expensice and time consuming.

Broken Crown
2014-01-25, 07:13 PM
Free wishes? No such thing.

Seriously, I usually save them for emergencies. If the DM is granting wishes in good faith, it's better to use them in the same spirit than to try shenanigans. If the DM is granting them out of sadism, you might as well wait until you're already screwed anyway.

Erik Vale
2014-01-25, 07:29 PM
Second time: Found a magic dagger with one Wish charge. We saved it, and when we were going to go up against a lich, we spent an hour making what we hoped was an airtight wish to stop him. Of course, using this would ruin the DM's plans, so he ruled the Spell Turning ring also worked against the Wish, reflecting it back on me.
I can't recall how we got my PC up and running again, but I think it was rather expensice and time consuming.

Why wouldn't spell turning effect wish?

Also, cool.

Telonius
2014-01-25, 07:50 PM
How do I react to free wishes? With complete and utter paranoia.

Another_Poet
2014-01-25, 08:04 PM
I would react with.... restraint.

Not paranoia! I find that (most) GM's only mess with Wishes when they're over-the-top. So instead of wishing "I wish I had all the money in the world" or "I wish I would live forever" I would wish, "I wish I had a +6 sword."

If you use it for reasonable, measured requests the GM will likely play along.


Anecdote:
The only time I've given out wishes as a GM it was to the two players in a short campaign who had just killed the evil ruler of the Magic Realm. Their reward was a wish apiece. One made an altruistic wish to set the realm right, the other wishes for control over a shapeshifting power I had given them earlier (originally they couldn't control when it happened). Both were reasonable and awesome, and I had no desire to screw them.

OldTrees1
2014-01-26, 01:10 AM
My reaction partially is influenced by the DM's reason for giving the wishes.


Gift to help customize characters with interesting things? Wish for an ability like a new class feature. A new on-hit effect for my attacks or The ability to do skill checks up to 30ft away or My undead are merely disabled instead of destroyed (with some exceptions).

Is is a Monkey's Paw? Get rid of it and never say the word (starts with w and rhymes with fish) again.

Will we need to cast it for the campaign? Yikes that is a warning sign

Silus
2014-01-26, 02:51 AM
Honestly? Word a wish in such extensive detail to cover nigh every way the DM could warp the wish. Often leads to DM and player annoyance, causing the wish to be bugged regardless of wording.

Rosstin
2014-01-26, 03:27 AM
I'm a bit of a roleplayer, and most of my characters tend to be fairly naive about powerful magic and artifacts (especially if they start from level 1). Unless my character was particularly well-read, I would probably assume that he or she would take the offer of free wishes at face value, and he would just wish for the thing he most desired.

I think this tends to result in fun... the DM probably introduced the wishes either as a generous offer, or in order to create good-natured hilarity, or as a trap that moves the plot forward.

I try to be the kind of player that helps the DM move the story along. Sometimes, your character SHOULD step into the trap. You can't ALWAYS be paranoid.

My latest character is a Ratfolk Merchant in PF. He's a wizard, but has been level 1 all his life, and has only just ascended to the lofty ranks of level 3 in the last week. He would probably be suspicious of a wishing artifact, but his greed would surely inspire him to try and take advantage of it. He would craft a carefully worded wish... probably something to try and increase his survivability or wealth. But no way it would be airtight.

BWR
2014-01-26, 07:00 AM
Why wouldn't spell turning effect wish?

Also, cool.

Because the wish was worded to bypass protections of any sort. We didn't specifically list Spell Turning as one of them, but most of us at the time thought the DM was a tad unfair in his ruling.

Jay R
2014-01-26, 09:49 AM
I was just reminded of a time someone asked what to do when their DM gave their party a staff of wishes.

A STAFF of wishes?

My question is this: how did it come to be ours? The last owner did not use all the wishes in it. So either he got rid of it, or he died while he had a staff of wishes.

Either way, it looks bad to own it.

HardcoreD&Dgirl
2014-01-26, 09:51 AM
I had something similar happen once. (This was 2e if it matters)

The magical King gave the party 5 magic items, one of them was the 'Seal of the King' it held 5 charges in it, and had a half page of abilities that used 0-4 charges... for 5 charges you could make a wish.

I held the seal, and had some fun with it. The charges finally got spent when in a huff I said "I wish we didn't have to muck through that swamp for a week." The DM said "5 charges spent and you are at the dungeon..."

SimonMoon6
2014-01-26, 09:58 AM
Depends on the game system.

In 1st-2nd edition, wishes are whimsically dangerous and are to be avoided except in times of great need.

In 3.x, wishes will work just as desired as long as you accept the limitations of the spell. So, with a staff of wishes, I would be like, "Fine, I'll accept having a +5 to all my ability scores."

Followed up by, "Now how much can I sell this staff for?"

Brookshw
2014-01-26, 10:39 AM
My players run from them like the dickens. Oddly though they all always draw when the deck of many things comes up.

Roncorps
2014-01-26, 11:27 AM
My players run from them like the dickens. Oddly though they all always draw when the deck of many things comes up.

They could wish for DoMT ;)

CombatOwl
2014-01-26, 11:38 AM
I was just reminded of a time someone asked what to do when their DM gave their party a staff of wishes.

My initial response was something to the effect of, "It's a trap. Find the biggest field you can, pick a random spot, and bury that sucker."

This got me to thinking, how do you all respond to your GM giving you what appears to be a free wish or wishes?

Save it for spell replication when they're really needed, or removing curses, or reviving the dead.

Terazul
2014-01-26, 01:47 PM
I was just reminded of a time someone asked what to do when their DM gave their party a staff of wishes.

My initial response was something to the effect of, "It's a trap. Find the biggest field you can, pick a random spot, and bury that sucker."

This got me to thinking, how do you all respond to your GM giving you what appears to be a free wish or wishes?

With the GMs I actually/usually play with? ...It's probably legit. Probably some sort of plot shenanigans, but the actual use of Wish would be fine. They tend to be reasonable like that.

With someone I'd never played before, or my first time playing with them? Not trusting it. If only because I see so many GMs talking about how they twist wishes even if the person using it is using one of the approved uses listed in the spell itself.

Yora
2014-01-26, 02:37 PM
Replicating spell effects seems to be the safe way to go. If you wish that a subject or object recieves the effect of spell x, there isn't really much that could be subverted because of poor wording.

Sith_Happens
2014-01-26, 04:18 PM
Depends on how many and whether they need to be used immediately.

Ring of Three Wishes? Save for emergencies.

Scroll? Even more so, as my Too Awesome to Use (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooAwesomeToUse) instincts will likely kick in full force.

Efreeti (or other Evil and/or Chaotic creature)? Magic items and/or inherent bonuses, exercise restraint on the former.

Noble djinn (or other non-Evil, non-Chaotic creature) and I trust the DM? Maybe other wishes that I think aren't much stronger than the listed ones.

Staff with more than a few charges? Ask the DM "Are you sure?" in my most ominous tone of voice possible. If they say "Yes," make note of whether that includes a grin, but either way abuse that sucker for all it's worth.

Excession
2014-01-26, 04:55 PM
"I wish this wasn't a trap."

Smorgonoffz
2014-01-26, 05:19 PM
As all of my DM had a love of twisting people wishes even if they weren't over the top examples:


1) I wish food for all of us(the party), the food rained upon the pcs
2) I wish for some gold, the gold coins fell on the pc head Hurting him

etc+


I react with complete and utter paranoia, the same as meeting a child in Sigil

Urpriest
2014-01-26, 05:20 PM
Depends on the system.

In Exalted, I try to figure out what the Malefactor's ulterior motive is. :smallbiggrin:

In general, unless they're literally omnipotent, there's no reason to fear wishes more than any other magical effect. If free magic in a setting is scary, then free wishes are scary. If not, then not.

Mr. Mask
2014-01-26, 05:33 PM
This is why whenever I have wishes available, I put interesting limits on them. Like you can't make a wish that is more or less than eight words long.

SimonMoon6
2014-01-26, 05:35 PM
"I wish this wasn't a trap."

"Okay, it *wasn't*, but it is now."

(Subjunctive case? What's that?)

Mr Beer
2014-01-26, 05:54 PM
My players would be OK with it because I'm not a cartoonishly capricious douchebag when it comes to using Wishes.

BWR
2014-01-26, 06:44 PM
"Okay, it *wasn't*, but it is now."

(Subjunctive case? What's that?)

Long live grammar.

Jay R
2014-01-26, 08:36 PM
"I wish this wasn't a trap."

DM: "The staff no longer radiates magic."

Rosstin
2014-01-26, 08:41 PM
A STAFF of wishes?

My question is this: how did it come to be ours? The last owner did not use all the wishes in it. So either he got rid of it, or he died while he had a staff of wishes.

Either way, it looks bad to own it.

Pft, exactly. Wishing artifacts make zero sense. Unless it's literally like this huge quest artifact you have to assemble from the blood of virgins and tears of saints and all that.

Slipperychicken
2014-01-26, 08:53 PM
"I wish this wasn't a trap."

Success! A nearby pitfall trap has been polymorphed into a mouse.


Pft, exactly. Wishing artifacts make zero sense. Unless it's literally like this huge quest artifact you have to assemble from the blood of virgins and tears of saints and all that.

Considering how much such an item's materials would cost, that actually sounds plausible. I'd also throw in something crazy like the still-beating heart of an elder dragon, which must have been torn from the dragon no more than 1 hour prior to the creation process. Nah that's too easy, you'd probably need the brains of like 4 demigods too.

Kelb_Panthera
2014-01-27, 02:30 AM
Considering how much such an item's materials would cost...

Since it's been brought up and I'm feeling math-y:

9*17*750=114750 for the 9th level spell

50*5000*5=1250000 for the xp component

300 for the mwk staff

300+114750+1250000=1,365,050gp market price.

Fortunately the 1.25 million for the XP isn't part of the material cost for the staff. Unfortunately the creator has to provide 250,000xp to create the bloody thing. Even gods don't have that kind of XP just laying around to burn on crafting.

Sith_Happens
2014-01-27, 02:46 AM
Unfortunately the creator has to provide 250,000xp to create the bloody thing. Even gods don't have that kind of XP just laying around to burn on crafting.

That's what Zodar are for.:smalltongue:

Kelb_Panthera
2014-01-27, 03:24 AM
That's what Zodar are for.:smalltongue:

Meh. I don't imagine many DM's are too keen on letting that particular RAW exploit fly.

Yes, technically you can use wish as a SLA or SU ability to create any magic item of arbitrary value that you care to have but houseruling it have an upper limit isn't even a little uncommon.

For example, I limit it to 50k in my games and rule that it causes a strain on the caster that extends the recharge time on the ability.

veti
2014-01-27, 04:11 PM
Honestly? Word a wish in such extensive detail to cover nigh every way the DM could warp the wish. Often leads to DM and player annoyance, causing the wish to be bugged regardless of wording.

You're joking, right? You want to get into a battle of wits with an entity (the DM) who literally gets to rewrite reality as s/he goes along?

Repeat after me: "I do not want to be in an adversarial relationship with my DM. That includes trying to make him/her look like a fool."


Depends a lot on the GM and how much of an old-school, "be paranoid or be dead" kind of game he runs. Best case, keep it and use it for things that won't wreck the campaign. (Resurrection? Sure. Insta-kill the BBEG? Not a chance). Worst case, start running in the opposite direction as fast as I can.

This is the sensible answer, IMO. It'd be my first instinct. Also, probably wrong, because why the hell would the DM give you such an obviously broken item in the first place? A Rod of Resurrection is for those emergencies. A "Staff of Wishes" sounds more like "there's a tarrasque around that corner".

Jay R
2014-01-27, 05:29 PM
A single wish, or very few wishes, that we had to perform incredible tasks to earm does not frighten me (much).

A large set of wishes dropped in our laps? It's a trap, or a test of character. (And by "test of character", I mean "trap".)

My general rule on wishes is to use them to improve an aspect of my character that appeals to the DM. I currently have a 2E thief/wizard who's been made an Earl. The DM is putting barriers to my taking time to create magic items, but not to developing the county and army. He is clearly more interested in my character as a war leader. So if I had a wish, I would use it to improve his ability as a war leader.

Pex
2014-01-27, 07:41 PM
If the DM knows the players would wreck the game with it, he has bad players. If the DM knows the players would wreck the game with and gives it to them anyway, he's a bad DM. If the DM gives it to his players for the purpose of making the PCs lives miserable, he doesn't deserve to sit in the chair.

Icewraith
2014-01-27, 07:56 PM
If you've got enough wishes... staaaaaat bonus! Make your casters happy!

Slipperychicken
2014-01-28, 12:00 PM
Fortunately the 1.25 million for the XP isn't part of the material cost for the staff. Unfortunately the creator has to provide 250,000xp to create the bloody thing. Even gods don't have that kind of XP just laying around to burn on crafting.

Can't you burn souls for 10 crafting xp each? That way, you could sacrifice 25,000 souls to fill the xp requirement (which is pretty hardcore when you think about it). Or a ****ton of ambrosia.

You could also make countless sacrifices to some dark god to score some Dark Craft XP. Maybe you could perform the sacrifices with a thayan blade so you could harvest the soul separately?

And I believe gods get a pool of craft XP which refills every so often.

Kelb_Panthera
2014-01-28, 12:27 PM
Can't you burn souls for 10 crafting xp each? That way, you could sacrifice 25,000 souls to fill the xp requirement (which is pretty hardcore when you think about it). Or a ****ton of ambrosia.

You could also make countless sacrifices to some dark god to score some Dark Craft XP. Maybe you could perform the sacrifices with a thayan blade so you could harvest the soul separately?

And I believe gods get a pool of craft XP which refills every so often.

Those are disgustingly expensive options unless you create a way to start farming ambrosia yourself or make some -seriously- good deals with lower planes denizens for getting souls. You realize that's a metropolis worth of souls, right?

D&DG says that, for crafting and spell component purposes, you should presume that gods have about 30,000xp available each week. This is, however, under the presumption that the deity is -using- those XP. As a 60th level character (usually) a deity couldn't gather up more than 60999xp to use at one time without leveling up, same as any other character of that level.

Slipperychicken
2014-01-28, 12:30 PM
You realize that's a metropolis worth of souls, right?


That seems appropriate for a staff of 50 wishes.

Kelb_Panthera
2014-01-28, 01:49 PM
That seems appropriate for a staff of 50 wishes.

Umm....... I'm pretty sure that such a staff would invoke the BoVD rules for the taint of evil wherever it was carried; an evil such as the world has never seen version.

Slipperychicken
2014-01-28, 02:48 PM
Umm....... I'm pretty sure that such a staff would invoke the BoVD rules for the taint of evil wherever it was carried; an evil such as the world has never seen version.

I know it would probably be the most evil staff ever (and its creator would surely be damned to the blackest corner of hell and get a job offer from Asmodeus to work as a carpenter), but I feel that building an item of such such power should be suitably epic.

Also, souls aren't the only way to get craft XP. One could get it via ambrosia factory or other means, but that doesn't quite have the same impact as sacrificing a metropolis' worth of souls.

Also, fun fact: this thing would take like 115 days to create (1 day per 1000gp of base price, which doesn't include XP components).

Vindcara
2014-01-28, 03:07 PM
define "free wish"
are we talking about "your walking along when you foot hits a stick, on the stick is the words "staff of 50 wishes"?"

or a: after a long and hard dungeon every member in the party gets 1 wish?

my old dm handled wishes pretty well; we were at a well that gave one wish per purson when they through in an electrum peice, 12 party members, 5 electrum peices.

pc1: *throws in a coin* "i wish for good fortune for the party"

dm: "ok all of your pockets get hevier as they fill with electrum peices"

pc2: "i wish a baby orphaned gold dragon who is willing to be my companion would apear next to me"

dm: "there is a crack of light as a baby gold dragon apears next to you"

dragon: "waaaa! what happened! i was laying down when a bolt of lightning struck my momma and now im here! waaa! *sniffle"

pc2: .... "dont worry little dragon, would you like to travel with me?"

dragon: *snifle* "ok, and i swear i will find whoever killed my mama and destroy them!"

heh. he forgot the word already orphaned:smallamused:

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-01-28, 03:48 PM
"I wish that this staff of free wishes never existed to begin with." :smalltongue:

Slipperychicken
2014-01-28, 03:53 PM
"I wish that this staff of free wishes never existed to begin with." :smalltongue:

"Congratulations. The staff did not exist at the beginning of time. It was only created afterward, and still rests in your palm now. 49 wishes left."

Dunsparce
2014-01-28, 03:57 PM
One of my D&D 3.5 groups actually got three uncorrupt wishes. We rolled a djinn lamp in a dragon horde.

Myself(a Paladin), my girlfriend(A druid) and the team ranger were the ones that got the wishes since out other members got a bunch of powerful magic items from said horde. Our DM encouraged us to be creative with them.

I wished for a mass lay on hands. I expend all of my lay on hands HP into a 15-foot radius burst centered on myself that heals for 1/2 my paladin level x charisma(which is quite a bit considering that I many magical items that make my lay on hands actually usable). It's been very helpful for after-battle healing and undead horde damaging.

My girlfriend waited until we got back to town, because she wanted to make some dragonhide armor. She wished for her armor to grant her a breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds(it was a white dragon, so it was a frost breath)

The Ranger took the cake however. He wished to be the ultimate weapon, and thus became a psuedo-warforged with an 4d6 arm cannon(That counts as a magical weapon with bonuses against favored enemies) and a bunch of new immunities plus some natural armor bonuses.

gooddragon1
2014-01-28, 03:59 PM
Wish for nautical nonsense.

Dimers
2014-01-28, 04:04 PM
Since I'm rarely in games with ass-hat GMs, I am always inclined to bite on hooks, because it makes GMs happy and I like making people happy. And a staff of wishes isn't a magic item, it's a hook. It may as well be curved and barbed and tied onto a clear thin line. The staff might as well be jutting out from the stump of a pirate's arm. Seriously. Captain WishStaff the psychic warrior, famous for using graft weapon to replace his hand with a staff of wishes.

Slipperychicken
2014-01-28, 04:11 PM
Wish for nautical nonsense.

I'm amazed I got this reference as quickly as I did.

{{scrubbed}}

Dimers
2014-01-28, 08:06 PM
Really? A paladin gets a wish, and he wishes for more Lay on Hands? Not even a create food trap or everlasting rations? Or anything that could help people after he's dead?

Yes, clearly Dunsparce is having badwrongfun and you should correct him using a necessary element of the Tippyverse, which is of course both more ethically sound in-character and more fun for everyone involved.

Dunsparce, you did fine. I appreciated reading something in this thread that WASN'T from a game of Paranoia&Dragons.

Erik Vale
2014-01-28, 08:13 PM
Yes, clearly Dunsparce is having badwrongfun and you should correct him using a necessary element of the Tippyverse, which is of course both more ethically sound in-character and more fun for everyone involved.

That, and a combined Everful Mug + Everlasting Rations set is ludicrously cheap at a whole 550...
Ok, cheap by adventurer standards.

Slipperychicken
2014-01-28, 09:14 PM
Yes, clearly Dunsparce is having badwrongfun and you should correct him using a necessary element of the Tippyverse, which is of course both more ethically sound in-character and more fun for everyone involved.

Intention is fullwise goodthinking. But the Paladins wish was duckspeakly, not wrongfun.



Dunsparce, you did fine. I appreciated reading something in this thread that WASN'T from a game of Paranoia&Dragons.

Facecrime doubleplusungood, use crimestop!!. Crimethinkers be speedwise vaporized.

OldTrees1
2014-01-29, 12:54 AM
I once gave my players 1 free wish each at character creation.

Ability to stack Thrallherd and Leadership
Their spit becomes unholy water
Arcane Thesis (Evocation spells)
Stronger wolf animal companion*

*Every 3 levels I refluffed the next lupine/great cat animal companion as a Wolf and the player got a free Wild Cohort feat to apply to the wolf.

Silus
2014-01-29, 03:06 AM
"I wish this wasn't a wish."
Or...
"I wish the powers that be (that govern how wishes are granted) would not alter this or future wishes for malicious reasons or for their own amusement, and that said wishes are granted in the way the wisher intends."

Hytheter
2014-01-29, 09:18 AM
I don't see why you'd ever just go "obvious trap, dispose immediately". That's boring. If you've got a wish, take it; chances are it's not just there for ****s and giggles.
If your DM then says "the wish doesn't go according to plan..." congratulations, you've gotten yourself a plot.
Alternately, if he says "The wish backfires and you die, no save, no resurrection TROLOLOLOL" then you pick a new DM. :P

This is why whenever I have wishes available, I put interesting limits on them. Like you can't make a wish that is more or less than eight words long.
I hope that's not the only limit...
"I wish I was God of all universes!"

Slipperychicken
2014-01-29, 10:10 AM
"I wish this wasn't a wish."

"You don't notice anything different"



"I wish the powers that be (that govern how wishes are granted) would not alter this or future wishes for malicious reasons or for their own amusement, and that said wishes are granted in the way the wisher intends."

Partial fulfillment: "This wish has only been altered out of sincere goodwil, and your future wishes shall not interfere with this one. Given your previous wishes, the powers that be are lead to believe that you intend to bring about your own destruction through poorly-worded wishes. We sincerely mean the best through your coming annihilaton, so embrace it! For life is pain and you are transient."

[Bonus extra fun wish-twisting: Replace "annihilation/destruction" with "misery" or "torment"]

Threadnaught
2014-01-29, 10:31 AM
This got me to thinking, how do you all respond to your GM giving you what appears to be a free wish or wishes?

Well my Druid already used one of their free Wishes, signing the Baatezu half of the contract. If they don't sign the Druidic half soon, the Devils are going to try to collect the soul they own. :smallamused:
The Wizard gave away their Devil stone, bringing an NPC into the contract, causing said NPC... Fine, DMPC, to become part of the major plot. He was going to join anyway, but they wrote him into it. Wizard of course, got a new Devil stone and the DMPC was given a Druid stone to use.

The Wizard is free to do whatever he wants, but the Druid is at the mercy of Baator.


They knew from the start I'd use the Wishes to screw them over somehow and if the Druid doesn't balance out the contract by the time they reach 15th level. :smallbiggrin:

Sith_Happens
2014-01-29, 10:32 AM
Intention is fullwise goodthinking. But the Paladins wish was duckspeakly, not wrongfun.

Facecrime doubleplusungood, use crimestop!!. Crimethinkers be speedwise vaporized.

I understood this, and I don't think that's a good thing.:smalleek:

Lord Raziere
2014-01-29, 10:42 AM
I'd wish for the power of at-will fireball, at-will dominate and...at-will greater teleport. in that order.

SiuiS
2014-01-29, 12:25 PM
Utterly different from everyone else's posts...

I feel sad. Free wishes have no value. If I wanted to do whatever for free without consequence, I'd play make believe, not D&D. I cheesed wishes once. It sucked the fun out of the game.

Earned wishes are great, though.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-01-29, 12:37 PM
"You don't notice anything different"

But if it wasn't a wish, then it couldn't have worked, thus it remains a wish, and thus it works, so it isn't a wish, so it doesn't work...


I hope that's not the only limit...
"I wish I was God of all universes!"
Do you really want that wish? Really?

Threadnaught
2014-01-29, 05:52 PM
I hope that's not the only limit...
"I wish I was God of all universes!"

Congratulations, you're the DM. Here's my notes, good luck keeping track of it all, I'm rolling up [severely broken character], enjoy yourself.

Kelb_Panthera
2014-01-29, 08:39 PM
I don't see why you'd ever just go "obvious trap, dispose immediately". That's boring. If you've got a wish, take it; chances are it's not just there for ****s and giggles.
If your DM then says "the wish doesn't go according to plan..." congratulations, you've gotten yourself a plot.
Alternately, if he says "The wish backfires and you die, no save, no resurrection TROLOLOLOL" then you pick a new DM. :P

If it was A wish, I wouldn't react that way. I'd still be a bit wary but I'd probably take my chances with it.

The "bury and flee" reaction was for a -staff- of wishes; 50 wishes just dropped in their laps. That's a -lot- of power and represents a -lot- of wealth; enough that unless you're pretty close to being top-dog already it's going to be -way- more trouble than its worth, especially given that all too many GM's like to twist wishes even when they're on the safe-list.

I'd be more inclined to draw heavily on a deck of many things.

Hytheter
2014-01-29, 10:15 PM
Right, I suppose that's a good point. Still, I think using the staff - preferably in quick succession - would be a lot more fun.

Congratulations, you're the DM. Here's my notes, good luck keeping track of it all, I'm rolling up [severely broken character], enjoy yourself.
Hey if becoming the DM in character isn't a win I don't know what is.
"Sorry, but as the God of All Universes I have retroactively erased [severely broken class/race/whatever] from existence. >:)"

Slipperychicken
2014-01-29, 11:07 PM
But if it wasn't a wish, then it couldn't have worked, thus it remains a wish, and thus it works, so it isn't a wish, so it doesn't work...

However it resolves, it matters little. If it wasn't a wish, nothing happens. If it was a wish, he didn't wish for anything observable, so nothing happens.

So yeah, it's not hard to figure it out.

Averis Vol
2014-01-30, 12:30 AM
I was just reminded of a time someone asked what to do when their DM gave their party a staff of wishes.

My initial response was something to the effect of, "It's a trap. Find the biggest field you can, pick a random spot, and bury that sucker."

This got me to thinking, how do you all respond to your GM giving you what appears to be a free wish or wishes?

By buffing up and assuming my combat stance, because soon the BBEG is going to come pounding through the door and wreck us with something that makes him immune to that staff.

Then we hopefully level up and prepare to find a way to defeat it.

....that was where the story was going, right?

Threadnaught
2014-01-30, 06:57 AM
Hey if becoming the DM in character isn't a win I don't know what is.

Do remember that the character making the Wish effectively ceases to exist (as a character), becoming a Deity with NI Divine Ranks.


"Sorry, but as the God of All Universes I have retroactively erased [severely broken class/race/whatever] from existence. >:)"

Well if you're erasing them from the timeline, please, feel free to change everything NPCs made with any now banned components ever did. Just so the world behaves as if they had never existed. I bet you can't maintain continuity. :smallamused:

Enjoying yourself? Is it everything you Wished for?

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-01-30, 12:52 PM
However it resolves, it matters little. If it wasn't a wish, nothing happens. If it was a wish, he didn't wish for anything observable, so nothing happens.

So yeah, it's not hard to figure it out.
It's not hard to figure out what it looks like.

But metaphysically, you've divided by zero. :smallbiggrin:

SiuiS
2014-01-30, 12:59 PM
Pft, exactly. Wishing artifacts make zero sense. Unless it's literally like this huge quest artifact you have to assemble from the blood of virgins and tears of saints and all that.

Or you're a basically competent wizard with an abstract view f the value of life.

Eternity of Torment+Masochism+Distill joy+Extract Liquid Pain+Demon (because doing bad stuff to demons is always [good]) dropped into your highly accelerated time demiplane. Infinite GP and XP for crafting only.

Or using sanctum spell + Acid Splash + scribe scroll to spend a day creating a -1st level scroll netting that scroll's creation costs in functional non-dark craft GP and XP. Requires you being the one stuck in a demiplane for almost eternity, though. Th Septarch used this as hyr meditation while pondering existence and having an existential paradox.


Since it's been brought up and I'm feeling math-y:

9*17*750=114750 for the 9th level spell

50*5000*5=1250000 for the xp component

300 for the mwk staff

300+114750+1250000=1,365,050gp market price.

Fortunately the 1.25 million for the XP isn't part of the material cost for the staff. Unfortunately the creator has to provide 250,000xp to create the bloody thing. Even gods don't have that kind of XP just laying around to burn on crafting.

Said Septarch frequently left these things lying around for fun, so maybe someone in the campaign is just an ass?

Said Septarch also created a sprawling inter dimensional tavern as a business venture and plot hook seed, which became a sentient magic item and gained divine ranks and kicked the Septarch out of the business (and tavern), though, so they're probably a bad or very, very good example of magic item abuse.


Those are disgustingly expensive options unless you create a way to start farming ambrosia yourself or make some -seriously- good deals with lower planes denizens for getting souls. You realize that's a metropolis worth of souls, right?

Oh Pshaw. That's like, attacking a city in hell with a thinaun sandstorm. Cake.


Umm....... I'm pretty sure that such a staff would invoke the BoVD rules for the taint of evil wherever it was carried; an evil such as the world has never seen version.

Not evil the likes of which has never been seen... But, yeah.

Add ambrosia for paradoxically the most exalted festering pit of evil ever.


Wish for nautical nonsense.

I... That... You...



http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/025/5/6/dragon_hugs_by_articfoxice-d5sq31i.jpg


stuff

What's a Druid stone?


I'd wish for the power of at-will fireball, at-will dominate and...at-will greater teleport. in that order.

So "I wish I was a pit fiend"?


Congratulations, you're the DM. Here's my notes, good luck keeping track of it all, I'm rolling up [severely broken character], enjoy yourself.

I've done that!


Do remember that the character making the Wish effectively ceases to exist (as a character), becoming a Deity with NI Divine Ranks.


Luckily, as the DM, it's perfectly legit to DMPC the newest over deity :D

Threadnaught
2014-01-30, 02:37 PM
What's a Druid stone?

They were both given a pair of single use Wish granting stones. One from a Druidic sect, the other, from a Pit Fiend general working in collaboration with the Druids.

Using each individual Wish, signs a contract that forces the user to preserve the world at all costs, or face all sorts of retribution. :smallamused:

The Devils are allowed to take a soul and do whatever they want with it, provided the Druids have no issue with it, and having not pledged allegience to the Druids, I don't see how they'd have a problem.

Silus
2014-01-30, 05:49 PM
It's not hard to figure out what it looks like.

But metaphysically, you've divided by zero. :smallbiggrin:

Personally, if I was DMing and someone made that wish, I'd have a whole legion of Inevitables show up demanding to know what they did.

"You broke reality little mortal."

Lord Raziere
2014-01-30, 06:59 PM
So "I wish I was a pit fiend"?


No, I wish I was a good-aligned pit fiend.

Mr Beer
2014-01-30, 07:19 PM
No, I wish I was a good-aligned pit fiend.

I can see problems with this. I'd probably allow it but they'd acquire troublesome enmities.

Benthesquid
2014-01-30, 07:41 PM
That would depend entirely on my character. Nathan Barker, Alchemist Extraordinaire, would have been tempted to use it as a shortcut for his ultimate goal of creating a Philosopher's Stone, but would have eventually remembered that the transmutations of matter necessary to create the stone are reflective of the transmutations of spirit necessary to understand it, and would have shirked away from the shortcut, and used it for something immediately useful.

Uruk, The Paranoid Barbarian, would, as in almost all situations, have announced his suspicion that it was a trap, and power attacked the staff with his Greataxe.

Cor Mak Morn, the Pathfinder Society Druid, would have kept it in store for an emergency.

Slipperychicken
2014-01-30, 09:06 PM
Personally, if I was DMing and someone made that wish, I'd have a whole legion of Inevitables show up demanding to know what they did.

"You broke reality little mortal."

If you ask me, making a logically impossible wish would be like making a programming error in Excel, or trying to run an invalid command while coding. It might spit up an error message (like #Value!, NaN, abort it because it's an infinite loop, or something like that), but that's just about the worst you can expect. Even if the error somehow screws with your own system, it's not bringing down the internet, and it sure won't make SWAT descend on your home.

Lord Raziere
2014-01-30, 11:06 PM
oh wait I got it:

"I wish the granter of this wish will instantly die if they don't give me uncorrupted godhood of everything."

AuraTwilight
2014-01-30, 11:54 PM
oh wait I got it:

"I wish the granter of this wish will instantly die if they don't give me uncorrupted godhood of everything."

Wish granted, you become the god of Everything Inc., a small-time local business general store.

Slipperychicken
2014-01-31, 12:11 AM
oh wait I got it:

"I wish the granter of this wish will instantly die if they don't give me uncorrupted godhood of everything."

"Good thing I'm immune to mortal magic such as this, otherwise, I might have been worried. Also, congratulations on becoming my new punching bag."

Hytheter
2014-01-31, 12:54 AM
They were both given a pair of single use Wish granting stones. One from a Druidic sect, the other, from a Pit Fiend general working in collaboration with the Druids.
What the hell
For some reason your post is responding to a quote from "me"
even though I'm not the one who said that thing
???

SiuiS
2014-01-31, 01:45 AM
No, I wish I was a good-aligned pit fiend.

Ah, good catch, sorry. I was presuming player sovereinty.


I can see problems with this. I'd probably allow it but they'd acquire troublesome enmities.

As with any player action, really.


What the hell
For some reason your post is responding to a quote from "me"
even though I'm not the one who said that thing
???

Editing error. Yeah, that was me, not you who said that. =)

qwertyu63
2014-01-31, 10:00 AM
If it was A wish, I wouldn't react that way. I'd still be a bit wary but I'd probably take my chances with it.

The "bury and flee" reaction was for a -staff- of wishes; 50 wishes just dropped in their laps. That's a -lot- of power and represents a -lot- of wealth; enough that unless you're pretty close to being top-dog already it's going to be -way- more trouble than its worth, especially given that all too many GM's like to twist wishes even when they're on the safe-list.

I'd be more inclined to draw heavily on a deck of many things.

Oh, hey. I remember that thread... Actually, it was worse than 50 wishes. The DM had ruled that wishes could be used to any magic item you cared to name... such as a new staff of 50 wishes. You can see where that is going.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-01-31, 10:28 AM
If you ask me, making a logically impossible wish would be like making a programming error in Excel, or trying to run an invalid command while coding. It might spit up an error message (like #Value!, NaN, abort it because it's an infinite loop, or something like that), but that's just about the worst you can expect. Even if the error somehow screws with your own system, it's not bringing down the internet, and it sure won't make SWAT descend on your home.
A programming error is like to bring a pack of angry Modrons in your face, though...

Lord Raziere
2014-01-31, 10:43 AM
Wish granted, you become the god of Everything Inc., a small-time local business general store.


"Good thing I'm immune to mortal magic such as this, otherwise, I might have been worried. Also, congratulations on becoming my new punching bag."

So you both die then? kay :smallbiggrin: :smallcool:

@ Siuis: ? how is exercising my right to become a good-aligned pit fiend not player sovereignty?

Jay R
2014-01-31, 10:51 AM
Oh, hey. I remember that thread... Actually, it was worse than 50 wishes. The DM had ruled that wishes could be used to any magic item you cared to name... such as a new staff of 50 wishes. You can see where that is going.

Either they are cursed wishes that never help, or the party has infinite powers and items, in which case, the game is over.

qwertyu63
2014-01-31, 10:58 AM
Either they are cursed wishes that never help, or the party has infinite powers and items, in which case, the game is over.

Actually, as the OP of that thread, I know how it ended. They were real no-catches wishes, the DM actually made a mistake. I wound up using the wishes to literally become a god (via replicating Pun-Pun) and retired the character.

Laughingmanlol
2014-01-31, 01:07 PM
A good wish for when you only get one is to wish for everything to be altered to such an extent that if you were omniscient, capable of considering and processing all this knowledge, omnipotent, and free of external mental influence, you would make no further changes, since that gives you the benefit of all those factors without actually having to wish for them individually.

AuraTwilight
2014-01-31, 04:10 PM
So you both die then? kay :smallbiggrin: :smallcool:

@ Siuis: ? how is exercising my right to become a good-aligned pit fiend not player sovereignty?

Not at all. In my example I pointed out you didn't define 'uncorrupted', 'god', or 'everything' in any meaningful way, and failed to account for the possibility that it could've been a literal, non-living wish-granter to begin with, like a Ring.

SlipperyChicken just went the route of the wish being granted by an immortal who has nothing to fear of wishes.

Drogorn
2014-01-31, 04:23 PM
So...how much crafting xp is this thing worth when I drain it?

Coidzor
2014-01-31, 04:24 PM
Free Wishes? They're obviously plot coupons and it's up to us to either remember what plot points need what plot coupons or hold onto them and hoard them until the appropriate plot point for the plot coupon shows up.

Edit: Unless there's a Monk or something. Then it's clear that the DM just wants us to use the Wishes to up their ability scores.

And even then, if it's a trap, what have we really lost? :smallamused:

Slipperychicken
2014-01-31, 04:46 PM
SlipperyChicken just went the route of the wish being granted by an immortal who has nothing to fear of wishes.

Yeah, I would assume most truly cosmically-relevant entities capable of making wishes happen would have the means (often via wishes) and good sense to protect himself from them (whether via contingencies, godhood, or some other defense). Or at the very worst, it might refuse to grant such a wish, assuming it was not somehow compelled to do so. Even if the entity died from the wish, it might have a Contingent True Rez or something.

For example, a Solar Angel with its ability to generate wishes might have boatloads of permanent spells (it has Permanency as an at-will SLA, preps spells as a 20th level Cleric, and has 1/day Wish) and all manner of other defenses active at all times, up to and including direct intervention from the god it serves.

A deity of sufficient divine rank can simply render himself invulnerable to Wishes through myriad means. I would interpret "I wish [target creature] to die" as a death effect, to which gods of rank 6 or higher are automatically immune.

A greater-than-deity entity like the Lady of Pain, the Serpent, a Time Dragon, or something of that ilk would probably just squish the offending mortal like a bug, if it cared enough to even mind.

Lord Raziere
2014-01-31, 07:07 PM
Not at all. In my example I pointed out you didn't define 'uncorrupted', 'god', or 'everything' in any meaningful way, and failed to account for the possibility that it could've been a literal, non-living wish-granter to begin with, like a Ring.

SlipperyChicken just went the route of the wish being granted by an immortal who has nothing to fear of wishes.

and by interpreting in another way you corrupted it. you die.

so he is not granting wishes then?

SiuiS
2014-01-31, 07:40 PM
l
@ Siuis: ? how is exercising my right to become a good-aligned pit fiend not player sovereignty?

Player sovereignty is not having to say "I become a good pit fiend" out of concern for accidentally becoming an evil one.


Free Wishes? They're obviously plot coupons and it's up to us to either remember what plot points need what plot coupons or hold onto them and hoard them until the appropriate plot point for the plot coupon shows up.

I see you as that awkward zombie comic. "Come on Marty, it's the end of the world. It's the end of the game! Use the damn wishes!"
"But we might neeeeed them, later!"
":smallfurious:



A deity of sufficient divine rank can simply render himself invulnerable to Wishes through myriad means. I would interpret "I wish [target creature] to die" as a death effect, to which gods of rank 6 or higher are automatically immune.

A greater-than-deity entity like the Lady of Pain, the Serpent, a Time Dragon, or something of that ilk would probably just squish the offending mortal like a bug, if it cared enough to even mind.

Wish specifically is not a [death] effect actually. Wish is well known for not adding on subtypes for effects. You can use wish to dominate someone who is immune to [mind affecting].

Slipperychicken
2014-01-31, 07:52 PM
Wish specifically is not a [death] effect actually. Wish is well known for not adding on subtypes for effects. You can use wish to dominate someone who is immune to [mind affecting].

Wouldn't a Wish to kill something make it duplicate an appropriate spell (which most likely has the [death] tag)? A wish to dominate something would surely make it try to replicate Dominate Person or a similar spell.

SiuiS
2014-01-31, 08:05 PM
Wouldn't a Wish to kill something make it duplicate an appropriate spell (which most likely has the [death] tag)? A wish to dominate something would surely make it try to replicate Dominate Person or a similar spell.

Yes, but it keeps it's own tags, not those of the spell it duplicates.

Limited wish gets through a huge amount of stuff for that very reason. Dominate person is [Mind-Affecting]. Limited wish to cause a domination effect identical to the dominate person spell does not have the [mind-affecting] tag.

AuraTwilight
2014-01-31, 08:28 PM
and by interpreting in another way you corrupted it. you die.

so he is not granting wishes then?

You left it up to me to interpret, there's no 'corruption' involved. What does death mean if the wish-granter is undead or a construct or a magic item? What does corruption mean, if I don't know what a term means and have to wing it? What is 'Everything'? Everything WHAT?

Remember that Wishes have a safe list, and your wish goes beyond it. In the case of a wish going off the safe list, the wish-granter is fully within their rights to only grant PART of the wish. So...yea, you're the manager of a Everything But Baloney butcher shop, and I don't even have to die from it.

If you try to outsmart and effectively omnipotent being you will lose every time.

Kelb_Panthera
2014-01-31, 09:22 PM
So...how much crafting xp is this thing worth when I drain it?

250k for the wishes, plus another 4590 for the staff itself. Total: 254,590xp, assuming you're high enough level to get it 1:1 instead of 1:2. If you're between 5th and (IIRC) 11th level as an artificer you only get half that. Either way, good luck using it before your next level up.

TuggyNE
2014-01-31, 10:15 PM
I see you as that awkward zombie comic. "Come on Marty, it's the end of the world. It's the end of the game! Use the damn wishes!"
"But we might neeeeed them, later!"
":smallfurious:

Yeah, that's always hilarious facepalm material (http://www.awkwardzombie.com/index.php?page=0&comic=072709). :smallbiggrin:

Vindcara
2014-02-01, 12:12 AM
oh! 100% evil dmnes!

pc aproches evil alter
"hello mortal i will offer you an orb of 1 wish in return for 6 seconds use of your body"
pc:"ok"
pc hears the creis of 10,000 souls as they are destroid
"here you are mortal" orb of wishing apears in pcs hands
demon takes control of pc "i wish beezlebub was stamding next to me"
beezlebub apears "thank you for freeing me mortal"

Coidzor
2014-02-01, 12:56 AM
I see you as that awkward zombie comic. "Come on Marty, it's the end of the world. It's the end of the game! Use the damn wishes!"
"But we might neeeeed them, later!"
":smallfurious:

More that it's a binary. Either you can deal with the problem yourself or you can't and that's why the wishes were included.

Urpriest
2014-02-01, 11:07 AM
oh! 100% evil dmnes!

pc aproches evil alter
"hello mortal i will offer you an orb of 1 wish in return for 6 seconds use of your body"
pc:"ok"
pc hears the creis of 10,000 souls as they are destroid
"here you are mortal" orb of wishing apears in pcs hands
demon takes control of pc "i wish beezlebub was stamding next to me"
beezlebub apears "thank you for freeing me mortal"

Eh, if Baalzebul was trapped, freeing him is probably a good idea in the long run. He's an important check on Mephistopheles.

Lord Raziere
2014-02-01, 12:50 PM
You left it up to me to interpret, there's no 'corruption' involved. What does death mean if the wish-granter is undead or a construct or a magic item? What does corruption mean, if I don't know what a term means and have to wing it? What is 'Everything'? Everything WHAT?

Remember that Wishes have a safe list, and your wish goes beyond it. In the case of a wish going off the safe list, the wish-granter is fully within their rights to only grant PART of the wish. So...yea, you're the manager of a Everything But Baloney butcher shop, and I don't even have to die from it.

If you try to outsmart and effectively omnipotent being you will lose every time.

there is nothing to interpret "god of everything" means "god of everything". death means death. corruption means corruption. what you are being is deliberately obtuse when I'm communicating perfectly clearly. you die.

I just did outsmart them. the fact that your going into meaningless semantics and pulling a rule that was never stated out of nowhere, means I did, because you cannot think of anything legitimate to counter with. :smallamused:

Marnath
2014-02-01, 01:07 PM
Eh, if Baalzebul was trapped, freeing him is probably a good idea in the long run. He's an important check on Mephistopheles.

On his own plane, maybe. Not on the Prime. You think he'll care about Hell's politics once he gets into the mortal realm?

Coidzor
2014-02-01, 01:42 PM
On his own plane, maybe. Not on the Prime. You think he'll care about Hell's politics once he gets into the mortal realm?

Everything he does is related to Hell Politick, no? :smallconfused:

*shrug* The trick is not to fear "evil DMs," but to just call them out on their bull**** for not being able to be honest about when they're done with the game and want to stop by doing **** like that.

AuraTwilight
2014-02-01, 04:39 PM
there is nothing to interpret "god of everything" means "god of everything". death means death. corruption means corruption. what you are being is deliberately obtuse when I'm communicating perfectly clearly. you die.


God of Everything isn't a clearly defined thing. 'Everything' isn't a portfolio a deity can have in D&D.

'Death' is not a clearly defined thing. What if the wish-granter is a goddamn ghost?

'Corruption' is not a clearly defined thing. Does it mean following the letter of the word, the spirit of the word? Giving you what you WANTED or giving you what you ASKED for? Or does it only apply to malicious twisting of a wish?


I just did outsmart them. the fact that your going into meaningless semantics and pulling a rule that was never stated out of nowhere, means I did, because you cannot think of anything legitimate to counter with.


Universal
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 9
Components: V, XP
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.

Even wish, however, has its limits.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).

Material Component: When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component.

XP Cost: The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

Emphasis mine. So, no, it is not a rule I made up. Wishes in D&D have strict limitations, and beyond that limitation, wishes warp inherently even if you cast the spell yourself and have no desire to twist it. At best you get a literal interpretation. The write-up in the SRD itself suggests a partial fulfillment.

If I wanted to be malicious I could do the following:

"I wish to be a god of everything and if this wish is corrupted the wish-granter will die."

Coidzor
2014-02-01, 06:22 PM
If I wanted to be malicious I could do the following:

"I wish to be a god of everything and if this wish is corrupted the wish-granter will die."

Yes, you could, because you could Rule 0 as a DM. However you'd also incur a social cost for making that call. Granted, that's the point, you can do whatever you want in game as a DM, so long as you don't write a check your ass can't cash. Or however the saying goes.

What you have put here is neither partial fulfillment nor a literal but undesirable fulfillment of the wish except in cases where one is the wish granter themselves in which case the wording would be inappropriate and non sequitur anyway.

edit: I mean, it's a really, really bad wish and all, so they clearly only made it for something hilariously inventive to be done with perverting it or they need to be smacked with a rolled up newspaper and sent through RPG player bootcamp, but two wrongs don't make a right.

At least not without some really hilarious form of death and narrative delivery at any rate...

SiuiS
2014-02-01, 06:50 PM
Everything he does is related to Hell Politick, no? :smallconfused:

*shrug* The trick is not to fear "evil DMs," but to just call them out on their bull**** for not being able to be honest about when they're done with the game and want to stop by doing **** like that.

Word.


God of Everything isn't a clearly defined thing. 'Everything' isn't a portfolio a deity can have in D&D.

It doesn't have to be. That would be 'god of the "evetrything" portfolio', and the closest literal translations are either all portfolios or the All/Supreme portfolio, which does exist in some form.


'Death' is not a clearly defined thing. What if the wish-granter is a goddamn ghost?

Death is a condition which still befalls animated objects, constructs and ghosts. Rules text definition.


'Corruption' is not a clearly defined thing. Does it mean following the letter of the word, the spirit of the word? Giving you what you WANTED or giving you what you ASKED for? Or does it only apply to malicious twisting of a wish?

Isn't it? let's see what corruption literally means.




/kəˈrəpSHən/


noun

noun: corruption; plural noun: corruptions

1.

dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery.
"the journalist who wants to expose corruption in high places"

•the action of making someone or something morally depraved or the state of being so.
"the word “addict” conjures up evil and corruption"

•archaic
decay; putrefaction.
"the potato turned black and rotten with corruption"


2.
the process by which something, typically a word or expression, is changed from its original use or meaning to one that is regarded as erroneous or debased.

synonyms: alteration, bastardization, debasement, adulteration More

Hey, look. The literal definition of corruption actually covers this. I am honestly not used to that.

So corruption is clearly defined, in that a literal interpretation must take the word at literal value, and the only applicable literal value contains all the needed information.




Emphasis mine. So, no, it is not a rule I made up. Wishes in D&D have strict limitations, and beyond that limitation, wishes warp inherently even if you cast the spell yourself and have no desire to twist it. At best you get a literal interpretation. The write-up in the SRD itself suggests a partial fulfillment.

If I wanted to be malicious I could do the following:

"I wish to be a god of everything and if this wish is corrupted the wish-granter will die."

But by the rules using a non-literal twist is cheating, and your malicious decision is also cheating. Malicious wishes don't do whatever the heck the DM wants that even vaguely fits the parameters; they take it too literally.

AuraTwilight
2014-02-01, 06:51 PM
Yea, I know. The point I'm making is it's probably something an in-universe jerkass genie, like a bound Efreeti, could do and be justified by RAW. It's not a Rule 0 thing, he's effectively making two wishes.

Not that I personally would. My more likely interpretation was one I gave several posts ago, where he becomes master of something CALLED everything. I personally believe you should always gain some sort of benefit from a Wish, no matter how unexpected or potentially dangerous it is.

Kelb_Panthera
2014-02-01, 07:28 PM
But by the rules using a non-literal twist is cheating, and your malicious decision is also cheating. Malicious wishes don't do whatever the heck the DM wants that even vaguely fits the parameters; they take it too literally.

I think he was going for partial fulfillment there. Though, ironically, he went over-literal with the phrase "partial fulfillment."

SiuiS
2014-02-01, 08:01 PM
Yea, I know. The point I'm making is it's probably something an in-universe jerkass genie, like a bound Efreeti, could do and be justified by RAW.

That's true, since you state the wish and the genie casts it for you, allowing them to specifically interpret things for you. I presumed the thread was about a scroll/staff/etc wherein you cast the spell, however, and your wording was the wish.

My preferred method of mitigating wish abuse is to not allow out of character wishes. If you can't phrase it in character, you can't get it.


I think he was going for partial fulfillment there. Though, ironically, he went over-literal with the phrase "partial fulfillment."

Ah, I totally missed that, went with his statement of literal application. Didn't note the subject break until now.

AuraTwilight
2014-02-01, 09:08 PM
That's true, since you state the wish and the genie casts it for you, allowing them to specifically interpret things for you. I presumed the thread was about a scroll/staff/etc wherein you cast the spell, however, and your wording was the wish.

Raziere specified that the person granting the wish would die if they didn't make him god of everything. That implies something like a genie.

I already pointed out that if the wish is a ring or a staff or somesuch, his wish implodes. That's why I brought up the death thing in the first place.

Jay R
2014-02-01, 10:29 PM
If I wanted to be malicious I could do the following:

"I wish to be a god of everything and if this wish is corrupted the wish-granter will die."

Wrong approach. The wish should happen - but only the first wish.

"I wish to be a god of everything and if this wish is corrupted the wish-granter will die."

Grant the first wish only. My wish-granting apparatuses (apparati? apparooteetoots?) glow purple as the wish is being spoken, and stop glowing as soon as a second clause or wish is begun.

"I wish to become a prince and win the princess's hand and defeat the evil vizier."
"I wish for a +5 broadsword and a ring of flight."

In the present case, the PC who wanted an absurd wish will become the god of everything - all epic entities, gods, demons, devils, etc. appear before him and pray for divine intervention on their behalf - demanding mutually incompatible things. If he does not deliver, they will slay him. He received the position. Power comes separately.

Reasonable wishes should be treated reasonably. If you try to break the game with a wish, I will break the wish...

... or the wisher.

SiuiS
2014-02-01, 11:15 PM
Raziere specified that the person granting the wish would die if they didn't make him god of everything. That implies something like a genie.

I already pointed out that if the wish is a ring or a staff or somesuch, his wish implodes. That's why I brought up the death thing in the first place.

Eh. That's fair, although I read that completely differently.

AuraTwilight
2014-02-02, 01:06 AM
Wrong approach. The wish should happen - but only the first wish.

"I wish to be a god of everything and if this wish is corrupted the wish-granter will die."

Grant the first wish only. My wish-granting apparatuses (apparati? apparooteetoots?) glow purple as the wish is being spoken, and stop glowing as soon as a second clause or wish is begun.

"I wish to become a prince and win the princess's hand and defeat the evil vizier."
"I wish for a +5 broadsword and a ring of flight."

In the present case, the PC who wanted an absurd wish will become the god of everything - all epic entities, gods, demons, devils, etc. appear before him and pray for divine intervention on their behalf - demanding mutually incompatible things. If he does not deliver, they will slay him. He received the position. Power comes separately.

Reasonable wishes should be treated reasonably. If you try to break the game with a wish, I will break the wish...

... or the wisher.

This works just as good. He didn't wish to be omnipotent, and people worship things as gods without those things having divine powers in D&D.

The point I was trying to make is that you can't scam a free gift from someone who can rewrite reality on a casual whim.

Jay R
2014-02-02, 12:32 PM
The point I was trying to make is that you can't scam a free gift from someone who can rewrite reality on a casual whim.

Oh, that's well said. That's very well said indeed.

Subaru Kujo
2014-02-02, 08:41 PM
Sort of brings back memories of my ADnD campaign. Had an efreet that challenged us to a game of riddles. My halfling thief got one, and I think the dwarven cleric got another one. The prize for getting a riddle right was a brass key that pretty much bound the efreet to give us a single wish. Someone screwed up the last riddle, and we lost our keys.

Now, as far as how I would have approached using it, it would have been used for bringing someone back from the dead, or having our group make a quick getaway if needed. Couldn't see the point of asking for a weapon or riches when I could come across those just fine myself.

Blightedmarsh
2014-02-03, 03:04 AM
You could always ask for something awesome. A DM will grant a wish if they think the effects are cool enough.

"I wish all living things could magic in accordance with there size and nature"
"I wish to curse all rulers/lords/wizards/gods to slowly go incurably insane"
"I wish all undead are METAL!!!!!"
"I Wish zombies to be contagious"
"I wish the great cosmic war to be celestial pirates V infernal ninjas"
"I wish the wild lands to shift and twits and change as though a dream scape"
"I wish dreams could come to life if wanted or needed or feared badly enough"
"I wish truenaming worked"
"I wish it always rains on Tuesday"
"I wish dragons were more sensible"

Jon_Dahl
2014-02-03, 03:18 AM
In 3.5, there are number of predefined ways you can use Wish. They are all safe, barring special circumstances.

I'd save the staff and use it in one of the listed ways when I'm in trouble. Most likely like this:

Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

I can't see how any DM could pervert that wish, since it's worded in RAW and not by me.

Jon_Dahl
2014-02-03, 03:24 AM
Oh by the way, is this a valid wish?
"I wish that all my other wishes are immediately reversed if my employer doesn't keep his word to me."

Background:
Your character is going to revive a balor (recreate the body followed by resurrection), but you are unsure if the balor's master will keep his word (He has promised a reward that goes far beyond the worth of the wishes).

You have three wishes and two will be used in the process.

Jay R
2014-02-03, 10:44 AM
Oh by the way, is this a valid wish?
"I wish that all my other wishes are immediately reversed if my employer doesn't keep his word to me."

Background:
Your character is going to revive a balor (recreate the body followed by resurrection), but you are unsure if the balor's master will keep his word (He has promised a reward that goes far beyond the worth of the wishes).

You have three wishes and two will be used in the process.

I work on the original idea that a wish is just a raw ninth level spell. (I only play original D&D, & AD&D 1e and 2e.) It should not be able to be more powerful than a single ninth level spell.

It therefore follows that a wish can void one wish, but it cannot void two.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-02-03, 12:59 PM
"I wish all undead are METAL!!!!!"
\m/ O.O \m/

<furious headbanging>

BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAINS!!!!!!!

<flailing wildly>

Slipperychicken
2014-02-03, 01:31 PM
"I wish all undead are METAL!!!!!"

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs11/i/2006/245/6/4/Zombies_are_Metal__Colored_by_vampirepig.jpg
http://www.heavymetalpower.com/images/horns/zombie.jpg

Also, Bards would inexplicably become necromancers of incredible power.



"I wish dreams could come to life if wanted or needed or feared badly enough"

You know that Cthulhu would be all over that campaign setting in like, five minutes.

Kelb_Panthera
2014-02-03, 04:39 PM
In 3.5, there are number of predefined ways you can use Wish. They are all safe, barring special circumstances.

I'd save the staff and use it in one of the listed ways when I'm in trouble. Most likely like this:


I can't see how any DM could pervert that wish, since it's worded in RAW and not by me.

"RAW is law" is not an attitude shared by all. Some DM's will twist a wish, regardless.

That said, this seems like a really sensible use of such a device. Too bad it eats your standard action to shift the luck of only a single roll. If it's a really important roll though.....

Jay R
2014-02-03, 05:09 PM
In 3.5, there are number of predefined ways you can use Wish. They are all safe, barring special circumstances.

I'd save the staff and use it in one of the listed ways when I'm in trouble. Most likely like this:


I can't see how any DM could pervert that wish, since it's worded in RAW and not by me.

Having never played 3.5E, I would let that wish stand as written, because it doesn't have any of the red flags that make me need to subvert a wish.

It doesn't try to break the game.
It doesn't try to break the plot.
It doesn't try to make the player permanently super-powerful.
It doesn't try to use one wish to make several effects ("I wish all Xs are Y.")

If the player plays nice with me, I will play nice with the player. If the player tries to mess up my game, I will defend it.

BWR
2014-02-03, 05:51 PM
"I wish dragons were more sensible"

Do that and you get the Dragonstar setting.

Basically, the dragons on one world woke up one day and said "Dafuq? We're super smart, super strong, powerful casters and nigh immortal; why the hell are we hanging around in dirty caves waiting for lesser beings to kill us and take our stuff?"

A few centuries later and the dragons rule the world. some 6000-7000 years alter and they have a 1000 ly diameter space empire with dragons firmly on top.

GrayGriffin
2014-02-03, 07:59 PM
In my PTU campaign, our characters have obtained most of our cool items through hard work, and the occasional loss of blood as well. However, for Christmas, our DM basically gave everyone one free gift, and allowed us to make suggestions. Everyone who had a specific idea of what they wanted got exactly what they wanted, with even more extras than they asked for. But it was a one-time thing, after all. And the requests were sensible.

Sith_Happens
2014-02-04, 12:12 AM
In my PTU campaign, our characters have obtained most of our cool items through hard work, and the occasional loss of blood as well. However, for Christmas, our DM basically gave everyone one free gift, and allowed us to make suggestions. Everyone who had a specific idea of what they wanted got exactly what they wanted, with even more extras than they asked for. But it was a one-time thing, after all. And the requests were sensible.

"I wish I knew what the rest of a Diglett looks like."

Coidzor
2014-02-04, 03:33 AM
"I wish I knew what the rest of a Diglett looks like."

That's a good way to get a bunch of SAN damage, even in systems that don't even model sanity. :smallamused:

Lord Raziere
2014-02-04, 05:10 AM
That's a good way to get a bunch of SAN damage, even in systems that don't even model sanity. :smallamused:

well we do know that they have feet from Pokemon Mystery Dungeon

what really would cause SAN loss is the rest of Dugtrio. :smallbiggrin:

Sith_Happens
2014-02-04, 06:45 AM
I still say that not only is there no "rest of a Diglett," but the hole itself is part of the Diglett. Because that's what happens when you use Seismic Toss on one in Battle Revolution.

SiuiS
2014-02-04, 06:56 AM
"RAW is law" is not an attitude shared by all. Some DM's will twist a wish, regardless.

That said, this seems like a really sensible use of such a device. Too bad it eats your standard action to shift the luck of only a single roll. If it's a really important roll though.....

Depends on how you use it. I've seen an entire "round" of multiple nested time stop delayed spell nukes wiping out an army of outsiders undone by "sigh. I wish you hadn't done that."


Do that and you get the Dragonstar setting.

Basically, the dragons on one world woke up one day and said "Dafuq? We're super smart, super strong, powerful casters and nigh immortal; why the hell are we hanging around in dirty caves waiting for lesser beings to kill us and take our stuff?"

A few centuries later and the dragons rule the world. some 6000-7000 years alter and they have a 1000 ly diameter space empire with dragons firmly on top.

Hahaha wow.


That's a good way to get a bunch of SAN damage, even in systems that don't even model sanity. :smallamused:

Legit.

Lord Raziere
2014-02-04, 10:07 AM
Do that and you get the Dragonstar setting.

Basically, the dragons on one world woke up one day and said "Dafuq? We're super smart, super strong, powerful casters and nigh immortal; why the hell are we hanging around in dirty caves waiting for lesser beings to kill us and take our stuff?"

A few centuries later and the dragons rule the world. some 6000-7000 years alter and they have a 1000 ly diameter space empire with dragons firmly on top.

....I just had an idea for a Dragonstar campaign!

its called "Dragons Rule The Universe. Badly." the title is self explanatory.

Slipperychicken
2014-02-04, 01:38 PM
Basically, the dragons on one world woke up one day and said "Dafuq? We're super smart, super strong, powerful casters and nigh immortal; why the hell are we hanging around in dirty caves waiting for lesser beings to kill us and take our stuff?"

A few centuries later and the dragons rule the world. some 6000-7000 years alter and they have a 1000 ly diameter space empire with dragons firmly on top.

That might work if dragons were all on the same side, which is unlikely given their legendary greed and pride.

BWR
2014-02-05, 07:02 AM
That might work if dragons were all on the same side, which is unlikely given their legendary greed and pride.

Which is why there was a really big nasty war between the Metallic and Chromatic dragons some 5000+ years before the founding of the Dragon Empire. A few planets and entire races of dragons were casualties. But they worked out their differences and decided that out of greedy self-interest, a continued war would result in the death of all dragons and the lesser beings taking over. So each dragon race has a House in one sector of space, subordinate to a king (gold for metallic, red for chromatic), and the head of each House takes turn acting as Emperor for the entire empire for a period of 1000 years. The metallic dagons took the first 5000 years. When the setting starts the chromatic dragons have been in charge for 60 years, with Mezzenbone (ancient veteran of all the period leading up to the founding of the empire and everything in between) as Emperor.

The Imperial Laws are fairly loose and the individual kingdoms and Houses have a great deal of autonomy. The DE is mostly to make sure dragons stay in power and aren't killed off, or start any really destructive wars - which is a problem when Mezzenbone wants to destroy everything. And I mean everything. There's plenty of intrigue, politics, backstabbing, political assassinations, political and corporate espionage, good vs evil, conquest of new worlds, alien invasions, trade between the stars, brush fires, border skirmishes, etc.


So DS can be played like a game of Shadowrun, or Traveller/Firefly, RIFTS, military, adventurer, mercenary, or just about any sort of game you want.



....I just had an idea for a Dragonstar campaign!

its called "Dragons Rule The Universe. Badly." the title is self explanatory.

Otherwise known as 'Dragonstar'.
The books make no bones about the DE being seriously flawed. It's better than all out war, but that's about it. Some places are better than others - metallic domains are generally ok, but no place is perfect.

Kelb_Panthera
2014-02-05, 07:20 PM
Depends on how you use it. I've seen an entire "round" of multiple nested time stop delayed spell nukes wiping out an army of outsiders undone by "sigh. I wish you hadn't done that."

That's more using the emulate spells function to use the time regression power.

Either way, it pushes outside of the safe list. Undo misfortune is only good for forcing a reroll. Undoing a deliberate action on the part of the target goes beyond that. Time regression is a ninth level nomad power, so it goes beyond the scope of the spell emulation feature. Simple as that.

Even by RAW that one's asking to be twisted or partially fulfilled at the DM's whim. It was nice of him to let it fly.