PDA

View Full Version : What do we want from a fighter fix?



XionUnborn01
2014-01-28, 12:29 AM
So there's been plenty of fighter fixes and more pop up every day. Some fixes involve new sub-systems that, while not bad in and of themselves, bring baggage that I don't feel is necessary to make the fighter a viable class. Part of this is because I feel that fighters should be simple enough to work as a starter class but have enough options to work in higher optimization scenarios and I think that bringing in a sub-system may be a step above what newer players are willing or ready to learn.

I want to list some things that I believe are needed in a fighter class and I would like some input from the playground. My goal is to try and create a class that is simple and straight forward while functioning well in most situations.


More skillpoints.
I think that most everyone agrees that they need more.

Expanded Skill list.
Spot, Listen, and more all need to be added.

Out of combat abilities.
This coincides with skills partially. Fighters need to be able to at least contribute to strategy and diplomacy sessions.

Leadership.
They need to be able to turn peasants into armies or at least support the party.

Combat Options.
They need to be able to do more that just hit something. Debuffs, Battlefield Control, Crowd Control, they should be able to make a difference to the entire map.


I'm sure you guys know more things missing from the class. I'm not looking to compete with tier 1 or 2, but I would like to sit somewhere in tier 3. Hopefully we can work together and create something that fulfills everyone's expectations, or at least find a compromise.

XionUnborn01
2014-01-28, 01:13 AM
Current Class Table, as of Feb. 21st 2014.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Commander's Tongue, Bonus Feat, Powerful Presence

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Bonus Feat, Powerful Speech, Spell Reflection, Dowsing Sense

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Commander's Tongue, Bitter Experience, Quick Thinking, Mettle, Calloused Warrior

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Bonus Feat, Warband's Knowledge, [Freedom of Movement Line 1], Weapon's Mastery (+1)

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Commander's Tongue, Insightful Dodge, Combat Awareness (10ft), Veteran's Sight (15%), Spell Reflection

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Bonus Feat, Evasion, Calloused Warrior, Powerful Speech, Distracting Defender, Dowsing Sense

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Commander's Tongue, [Freedom of Movement Line 2], Wary Disbelief, Prime Target

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Bonus Feat, Quick Command, Veteran's Sight (30%), Weapon's Mastery (+1)

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Commander's Tongue, Combat Awareness (20ft), Calloused Warrior, Spell Reflection

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Bonus Feat, [Freedom of Movement Line 3], Salvo of Strikes, Powerful Speech

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Commander's Tongue, Veteran's Sight (45%), Legendary Strike

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Bonus Feat, Weapon's Mastery (+2), Calloused Warrior, Wary Eyes, Dowsing Sense

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Commander's Tongue, [Freedom of Movement Line 4], Combat Awareness (30ft), Gleaned Knowledge, Distracting Defender

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Bonus Feat, Veteran's Sight (60%), Powerful Speech, Spell Reflection

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Commander's Tongue, Calloused Warrior, Salvo of Strikes

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|Bonus Feat, [Freedom of Movement Line 5], Weapon's Mastery (+2)

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Commander's Tongue, Combat Awareness (40ft), Veteran's Sight (75%)

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Bonus Feat, Calloused Warrior, Powerful Speech, Wary Eyes

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Commander's Tongue, [Freedom of Movement Line 6], Legendary Strike

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus Feat, Veteran's Sight (All Miss Chance), Weapon's Mastery (+3), Salvo of Strikes, Ageless Veteran, Distracting Defender

[/table]





Commander's Tongue: At 1st level and every two levels thereafter, the fighter learns a new language. This can be any language other than secret languages.

Bonus Feat: Same as PHB

Powerful Presence: 1st level, A fighter may add his Strength modifier to his Intimidate checks whenever the target can see him.

Quick Thinking: 3rd level A Fighter gains his Int bonus on his Initiative checks in addition to his dex.

Bitter Experience (Ex): 3rd level A Fighter may use their class level in place of their ranks for the purposes of all Listen, Spot, and Sense Motive checks.

Warband's Knowledge: At 4th level, A fighter gains a +4 bonus on Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (history), and Knowledge (Geography).

Quick Command: At 8th level The fighter's allies all gain a bonus to initiative equal to his Int modifier if they are within 20 feet.

Insightful Dodge: At 5th level, A fighter gains his Int bonus to AC when he's not flatfooted or helpless.

Powerful Speech: At 2nd level, takes only half the penalty to intimidate for each size category smaller than the target he is. At 6th level, a demoralized opponent is demoralized for 1d4 extra rounds and you can demoralize an opponent from 15ft away. At 10th level you can demoralize as a move action and you no longer take penalties due to being smaller than your target. At 14th level, a fighter can intimidate targets immune to fear and the target's attitude no longer shifts to unfriendly or hostile after being intimidated. At 18th level a fighter can demoralize as a swift action and can use it from up to 30ft away.

Freedom of Movement Line: A scaling list of features that eventually ad up to freedom of movement. (Possibly make it so that it can negate FoM on an opponent if they're grappling them?)

Veteran's Sight: At 5th level a Fighter reduces the miss chance from any source, including blindness, darkness or etherealness (assuming he can damage an ethereal creature) by 15%. So a fighter attacking a displacer beast would have only a 35% miss chance. This increases by 15% at 8th, 11th, 14th, and 17th level until, at 20th level, all miss chances are negated.
All allies within 15 feet of the fighter gain half the benefit of this feature (rounded down) as the fighter directs and assists them.

Wary Disbelief: At 7th level A fighter gains a +5 bonus on saving throws against illusions and furthermore, may make a saving throw without interacting with an illusion provided it is withing 10ft per point of Int modifier.

Mettle: 3rd level As Hexblade.

Evasion: 6th level As Rogue, though it functions in all types of armor.

Combat Awareness: Blindsense 10ft at 5th level, 20ft at 9th, 30ft at 13th, 40ft at 17th.

Weapon Mastery: At 4th level you choose any +1 special weapon ability. This applies to every weapon you wield as long as it could normally be applied to that type of weapon. At 8th level you may choose another +1 ability, at 12th and 16th level level you may choose any +2 ability, at 20th level you may choose any +4 ability. With any of these, you may choose to split up the abilities into lower level ones, for instance, at 16th level you may instead choose to get two +1 enchantments.

Calloused Warrior: A fighter's seen enough fighting in his time that he eventually becomes accustomed to certain tricks.
3rd level you gain immunity to fear and sleep effects.
6th level you gain immunity to paralysis and poisons.
9th level you gain immunity to all disease and petrification and you always know who targeted you with an spell, spell like ability, or other effect whether or not you succeeded the saving throw.
12th level you gain immunity to polymorph effects though you may be subject to a beneficial effect if you specifically allow it.
15th level you gain immunity to death effects.
18th level you gain immunity to mind effecting spells and if you are targeted with one, you may turn it back on it's caster causing them to lose their next turn if they fail a Wil save DC 10+HD+Int.

Salvo of Strikes: : At 10th level a fighter may use a full round action to unleash a barrage of attacks. He may attack a number of times equal to his iterative attacks granted from his BAB plus additional attacks equal to his Int modifier all extra attacks are at his highest BAB. He may move between each attack if he wishes but no more than twice his land speed total for the turn. A fighter is fatigued for 1d10 minutes afterwards. At 15th level, he may instead may make extra attacks equal to twice Int modifier. A fighter is now fatigued for 1d8 minutes afterwards instead. At 20th level, he may make extra attacks equal to three times his Int Modifier. A fighter is now fatigued for 1d4 minutes afterwards instead.

Ageless Veteran: At 20th level a fighter becomes immune to aging, magically or otherwise, he has no maximum age and incurs no further aging penalties but retains the bonuses he would gain. He is counted as an outsider whenever it would be beneficial to him and he gains Damage Reduction equal to his Strength score overcome by weapons with descriptors of both the fighter's alignment (a neutral alignment on either/both axis allows them to choose the type that overcomes their DR). A fighter also gains a Frightful Presence out to 30 feet.

Legendary Strike: At 11th level, A fighter that strikes a creature with 8HD less than him with a melee attack can choose to either slay the creature outright or knock it unconscious. If he chooses to slay the creature, it gets a Fort Save DC 10+Fighter's Level+Str Modifier. If he succeeds he is Nauseated for Str modifier rounds. If the Fighter chooses to knock the creature unconscious, it must make a Wil Save DC 10+1/2Fighter's Level+Str Modifier. If he succeeds, he is dazed for Str Modifier rounds. This can only be used once per round. At 19th level, they can use this ability on any creature with 4hd less than them.

Prime Target: At 7th level, At the start of every encounter, any enemy present with Int 3 or more must make a Will Save DC 10+1/2Fighter's Level+Str. Any enemy that fails must attack the fighter to the best of it's ability, without taking obvious unsafe action. For example, a creature would not charge through a group of enemies just to get to the fighter on the other side, but it would ignore closer opponents if the fighter is reachable. This ability lasts for 1d4 rounds, after which the target must save again. If the target is demoralized by the fighter, this ability lasts as long as the demoralization plus 1d4 rounds.

Spell Reflection: At 2nd level, the fighter gains a +2 bonus to AC against spells and spell like abilities. At 5th level, if an enemy misses you with a spell or spell like ability, you can use an immediate action to reflect it back at them. The spell or ability attacks the original caster (who makes a new attack roll using the same modifier as the original attack).If it hits, the caster is subject to the normal effect of the spell or ability, though it's caster level is reduced by 4. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your Int modifier+1 (minimum 1). At 9th level, the effect no longer has it's caster level reduced and at 14th level, it's caster level is increased by 4.

Wary Eyes: At 12th level, a fighter counts as always taking 10 on spot for anything within 30 feet. At 18th level, this increases to 60 feet.

Gleaned Knowledge: At 13th level, a fighter is treated as having 1 rank in any knowledge skill he hasn't invested ranks into.

Distracting Defender: At 6th level, a fighter is treated as one size category bigger for the purposes of determining if he blocks line of sight or line of effect. At 13th level, a fighter is treated as two size categories bigger, and at 20th level he is treated is three sizes bigger.

Dowsing Sense: At 2nd level, a fighter is constantly under the effect of the Know Direction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/knowDirection.htm) spell. At 6th level a fighter can use Locate Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/locateObject.htm) Int modifier times/day. At 12th level, a fighter can use Find The Path (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findThePath.htm) Int modifier times/day. These are spell-like abilities.

Magic Warp: 16th level This ability functions as Antimagic Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) with the following exceptions; Any ability created by the fighter is not subject to the field, the fighter can lower the field as an immediate action but must spend a move action to re-activate it, and once/round the fighter can designate one target to be immune to the field for that round. The fighter can use this ability a number of times per day equal to their Int modifier. This is a Spell-like ability.


Okay, some big abilities added. This class is really starting to shape into something that I like. Please give feedback!

Jergmo
2014-01-28, 05:08 AM
I've never seen a fighter actually use Intimidate. Isn't that... wrong, somehow? Even with feats that rely on the skill, it's sub-standard.

It would be good to see AoE Intimidate effects. Just as a bard or marshal has increasing buffs, the fighter could have an increasing Intimidate debuff. For example, "at level X, the penalty increases from -2 to -4", the line offering additional options like reducing it to a Move action. Or a free action, like how certain finesse-based classes can work their way to feint as a free action.

The DMG itself contains a variant rule for skills applying different ability modifiers, a common one being Intimidate = Strength.

Amechra
2014-01-28, 05:41 AM
There is an ACF for fighters that makes them really good at intimidating people; they can use it to adjust people's opinion of them much faster than normal, and it lasts weeks.

When it comes to Fighter class features, a good idea is to step back from the concrete, hard rules of fighting, and look at what fighting means, both to the Fighter and to people watching.

Give them class features to cow their enemies and endear their allies through fighting; let them ignore compulsions to harm their allies, laugh off paralysis, and grapple mountains.

Seriously, a chain of class features that builds up to a permanent (Ex) Freedom of Movement, with maybe some thematic drawbacks, wouldn't be remiss. Let them Geas themselves, devoting themselves to a task doggedly.

Because when the going gets tough, the tough get going!

For less over-the-top class features, they should be able to wear medium armor or lighter as PJs. Actually, you know what?

Bitter Experience (Ex): A Fighter may use their class level in place of their ranks for the purposes of all Listen, Spot, and Sense Motive checks.

There. That's their Bardic Knowledge equivalent.

Alent
2014-01-28, 05:59 AM
This probably sounds like heresy, but would it be unfair to give the fighter good will saves?

Seconded on skills and freedom of movement. I was actually wondering earlier if there was a skill trick that would emulate freedom of movement?

Amechra
2014-01-28, 06:10 AM
Chassis really doesn't factor into balance much; you could give the Fighter d12 HD, all Good saves, Good BAB, and 4 + Int skills without making them much stronger than they are now.

Alent
2014-01-28, 06:32 AM
That... actually helps quite a bit for my own homebrew. I'd already gone D12 and 5 + int skills, and was worried about amping the chassis too far.

Ziegander
2014-01-28, 07:28 AM
If the Barbarian is the straight up, raw physical power class (pure Str/Dex/Con savagery), then the Fighter is the warrior who fights smarter not harder (Str/Dex/Con with Int focus), the Ranger is the warrior who fights with cunning and intuition (Str/Dex/Con with Wis focus), and the Paladin fights with conviction and glorious purpose (Str/Dex/Con with Cha focus).

So, I'd want the Fighter to have some abilities that allow him to leverage his smarts on the battlefield, and for more than just Int mod to X stat abilities.

Yitzi
2014-01-28, 07:31 AM
So there's been plenty of fighter fixes and more pop up every day. Some fixes involve new sub-systems that, while not bad in and of themselves, bring baggage that I don't feel is necessary to make the fighter a viable class. Part of this is because I feel that fighters should be simple enough to work as a starter class but have enough options to work in higher optimization scenarios and I think that bringing in a sub-system may be a step above what newer players are willing or ready to learn.

I want to list some things that I believe are needed in a fighter class and I would like some input from the playground. My goal is to try and create a class that is simple and straight forward while functioning well in most situations.


More skillpoints.
I think that most everyone agrees that they need more.

Expanded Skill list.
Spot, Listen, and more all need to be added.

Out of combat abilities.
This coincides with skills partially. Fighters need to be able to at least contribute to strategy and diplomacy sessions.

Leadership.
They need to be able to turn peasants into armies or at least support the party.

Combat Options.
They need to be able to do more that just hit something. Debuffs, Battlefield Control, Crowd Control, they should be able to make a difference to the entire map.

All those things are simply means to get what people are really looking for, which is:
-The ability to contribute to every encounter, not just combat ones. Which might mean replacing the fighter with a class named more appropriately to its new role.
-The ability to be effective in more than one way with a single build, giving the player options during play.

HammeredWharf
2014-01-28, 08:27 AM
I based my fix (which you can also find in this section) around these core principles:

1. The fighter is a highly trained, professional soldier. Her abilities should reflect that.
2. The fighter is a capable leader. She should be able to distinguish friend from foe (via Knowledge: Nobility), attend to strategy meetings (via Knowledge: Geography) and know the details of many historical battles (via Knowledge: History).
3. The fighter is a guard. She should have Spot and Listen as class skills.
4. Fighter is a smart soldier, with a variety of special attacks at her disposal. She should benefit from Intelligence.
5. The fighter is a class, so there should be something interesting and/or unique about her.
6. Finally, the fighter shouldn't stumble around the battlefield, getting AoO:d constantly.

Personally, I'd prefer a fix without Leadership, as it complicates what is, at its core, a very simple class.

Grinner
2014-01-28, 09:23 AM
There's so many ways to go about doing this.

The biggest question is how much of a fighting chance do you want them to have against full casters. Do you want abilities on par with the heroes of yore, or are you shooting for something more realistic? Really, the question is largely setting dependent; Gilgamesh probably isn't a good fit for places like Middle-Earth or Westros. Conversely, the power/number of casters should probably scale in direct proportion to the power of non-casters, but I suspect that's beyond the scope of this discussion.

I agree that fighters should probably get more skills and expanded usage of them, though then some might argue over why other classes can't make use of these abilities...

Then there's discussion over whether the fighter should be a master of arms or a leader of men...I'm given to siding on the former approach, as the "leader of men" archetype is already encompassed by the marshal.

I'll also toss out the idea of using some kind of at-will casting mechanic*, not dissimilar to that of the warlock. The idea has been contested in other threads, so I'll go ahead and summarize the issues people take with it. Some will argue that certain techniques are not always viable in the heat of combat, and therefore an at-will casting mechanic for fighters is not realistic. Others will then respond that they should not be artificially denied the ability to use these techniques. And the argument will proceed back and forth in this fashion till all involved become bored and wash their hands of the subject altogether.

Because it's so abstract, there's a number of ways to interpret combat in D&D, so the arguments and counterarguments for and against this mechanic are rather subjective. Personally, I'd say that while the at-will casting and daily casting mechanics may not make perfect sense from either perspective, this is a game we're talking about. It will always be, at some level, unrealistic. There's little point in wasting a perfectly good idea.

*Casting may not be the right word...Think of it more as supernatural skill.


So, I'd want the Fighter to have some abilities that allow him to leverage his smarts on the battlefield, and for more than just Int mod to X stat abilities.

Like Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering)? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html)

Ziegander
2014-01-28, 09:56 AM
Like Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering)? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html)

Hahaha! Exactly like that.



Spellcaster's Sanctum
Better Spellcasting for a Better World

http://rjdent.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/sanctuary.jpg%3Fw%3D450%26h%3D271

Welcome to my ground-up rewrite of all magic and spellcasting mechanics in D&D. Some of what you will find here will seem familiar to a few of you. That's because the mechanics for a lot of what I'm going to collect here have been ideas percolating in my head for years now. Some of you may remember my first Spellcaster's Sanctum project that I started but abandoned nearly 10 years ago! This will be a much more complete, polished, and useable product.

We will start with the Basics (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/basicsRacesDescription.htm) rules in the SRD and work our way then to the Magic Overview (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/magicOverview.htm) rules, adding, subtracting, and rewriting wherever necessary. After that I will work on the spells themselves. Finally, after all the general groundwork has been laid, I will get to the class designs. Bear with me. This is going to be a staggering amount of material to work through.

It should be assumed that, if I do not list a general rule as being modified or removed, then that rule remains in effect, working in tandem with the changes/omissions outlined below.


The Basics
Starting with modifier types, we're going to get rid of tons of them. The only types of modifiers that spells use are Enhancement (Arcane only), Sacred/Profane (Divine only), and Morale. And that's it. So that cuts out Competence, Deflection, Insight, Luck, and Resistance modifiers as things people need to worry about.

Now, on to ability scores. The biggest change here is that a character's Charisma modifier is added to each roll of a Magic Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1óthat is, a character always gains at least 1 magic point each time he or she advances in level). This implies that characters have Magic Dice that work similarly to Hit Dice, and that spells cost MP to cast. And with that, I believe we're done here.


Magic Overview
Concentration
While performing any action that requires your full attention you must make a Concentration check to concentrate on your work. Such actions include casting a spell, maintaining an ongoing spell, or using a skill or other ability that would provoke an attack of opportunity. The base check DC is 15, and unless distracted or in peril, you may Take 10 on this check. The base DC of this check may be increased for a variety of reasons.

If the Concentration check succeeds, you may continue with the action as normal. If the check fails, the action automatically fails and is wasted. If you were in the process of casting a spell, the action is lost, but magic points are not expended. If you were concentrating on an active spell, the spell abruptly ends. A skill use also fails, and in some cases a failed skill check may have additional consequences.


Distraction and/or peril can increase the DC from anywhere between +2 to +20 as determined by the DM. Concentrating in combat, for example, is a +4 modifier, concentrating while threatened a +6 modifier, and concentrating while grappled a +10 modifier.
A creature may attempt to concentrate on more than one thing at a time. For each action a creature concentrates on beyond the first, the DC to maintain concentration on all actions increases by 5.
The base DC to concentrate on a spell increases by twice the spell's level (17 for 1st level spells, 19 for 2nd level, 21 for 3rd level, etc).
Each time a creature is dealt damage, if that creature is performing an action which requires their full attention they must make a Concentration check. The DC for that check increases by the amount of damage dealt. If the creature is dealt damage more than once in a round the increased DC to concentrate on its actions stacks.
A creature that fails a saving throw, falls unconscious, or dies in the middle of concentrating on an action, or actions, automatically fails to concentrate on that action.

Caster Level
Caster level is replaced, in all cases, with Character level. This makes multiclassing between casters and non-casters a breeze.

Spell Resistance
Some creatures have the Spell Resistance special ability. In order to successfully cast a spell against such a creature, the spellcaster must make a special check (1d20 + Ĺ character level + casting ability modifier) versus a DC of 10 + Ĺ the creature's total HD + the creature's Charisma modifier (a negative Charisma modifier can actually lower the DC).

Creatures with Spell Resistance may also attempt to ignore the effects of other spells by making a similar check (1d20 + Ĺ its total HD + its Charisma modifier) versus a DC of 10 + Ĺ the caster's character level + the caster's casting ability modifier). To do so, the creature must touch or be physically affected the spell in some way. A creature may only attempt to ignore the effects of a spell once and only on its first interaction.

A creature that successfully ignores an ongoing spell that they interact with or a spell that targets them directly does not suffer damage, conditions, or impediment from the spell. A Fireball does not burn them, though it may burn others and may still start fires. An Entangle does not grasp at them, even if it keeps others from moving. A Wall of Force does not prevent them from crossing. And so on.

Indirect effects of a spell or spells that directly target other creatures or objects can not be ignored with this ability. Neither a Wizard's Mage Armor spell, nor the fires started by a Fireball spell can be ignored through Spell Resistance. Likewise, a cavern that has been sealed shut by magic is not a spell to be interacted with, and therefore cannot be ignored through Spell Resistance.

REMEMBER, creatures are free to allow any spells they wish to automatically beat their Spell Resistance and that they are not required to attempt to ignore any spells that they do not wish to.

Spell Failure
Arcane Spell Failure no longer exists. Armor does not affect a character's ability to cast spells (though it may help to protect a character from hostile ones cast at them; see below).

Bonus Types
The three bonus types utilized by spells (Enhancement, Sacred/Profane, and Morale) never stack with each other; only the highest bonus applies, even when different spells apply different types of bonus to the same statistic

Bonuses may "stack" with penalties of any type, working against each other to reduce the results of either (for example, a creature with a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and a -6 profane penalty to Strength suffers only a -2 penalty to Strength).


Spell Descriptions
Every spell description gives the name of the spell at the top in big bold letters, the spell school associated with the spell under that in italics (along with any special spell descriptors it has), as well as the Level, Components, Casting Time, Range, Target or Effect, and Duration entries. Many harmful spells also have the Saving Throw entry.


Expeditious Retreat
Transmutation
Level: 1st
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action (or 1 swift action, see text)
Range: Personal or Touch
Target: You or creature touched
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Duration: 1 round/level [C]

This spell increases the subject's movement speed by 30 feet whenever that creature uses its movement to move away, and only away, from all Hostile creatures (This adjustment is treated as an enhancement bonus). As with any effect that increases speed, this spell also affects the subject's jumping distance (see the Jump skill).

If you are the target of this spell, then you may cast it as a swift action rather than a standard action.

Level
This entry lists the spell's level. In order to cast a spell your character level must be at least equal to [(spell level ◊ 2) - 1].

Components
This entry lists the components required to cast the spell, if any. Most spells require Verbal (V), or Somatic (S) components. Many spells also require an Implement (I) component, and sometimes require an additional Material (M) component. In order to cast a spell you must be capable of supplying all of the required components; if you are unable to supply even one of the spell's requirements you simply cannot cast the spell.

Casting Time
This entry lists the type of action require to cast the spell, be it swift, move, standard, full-round, or immediate. There are no spells with a casting time longer than 1 full-round action.

Range
This entry lists the Range at which the spell can be cast. A spell's Range entry also determines the length of a Blast Effect (see below). A spell's range may be expressed in any of the following ways: Personal (0ft), Touch, Close (10ft), Medium (50ft), or Long (100ft). Close and Medium range spells have five range increments that work similarly to the range increments of ranged weapons. For every range increment the spell is cast to beyond the first, the spellcaster suffers a -2 penalty to caster level. Long range spells have ten such increments. The effects of a Personal Range spell cannot leave your space and generally affect your person (though there are exceptions). In order to affect a creature with a spell that has a Range of Touch you must either touch an adjacent willing creature, or succeed on a melee touch attack against an unwilling creature.

Target or Effect
This entry lists either the spell's target(s) or the spell's effect (if it has no direct target). The Target entry can include You, 1 Creature, 1 Creature per level, Creature Touched, etc. The Effect entry is for spells that produce a specific magical effect, such as a Blast or Burst, or other unique effects (such as with Fog Cloud or Mage's Sword). Unique effects are explained in further detail as given.

A Blast is a cone-shaped area, while a Burst is an emanation area. These Effects affect all creatures inside the area. While a spell's Range determines the length of a Blast Effect, it serves a reference for the maximum distance to which a Burst effect may be centered. A Burst Effect's radius is always listed in the Effect entry. A Personal Range Burst Effect is always centered on the caster.

Duration
This entry lists the spell's duration and may be a Fixed duration (such as 1 round, 1 encounter, or 24 hours), a non-Fixed duration (such as 1 round/level), Instantaneous, or Permanent. Instantaneous spells take effect the instant the spell is cast and then the magic is gone, though the consequences might be long-lasting. Permanent spells establish lasting magical effects independent of caster concentration which may be suppressed or dispelled by outside sources.

REMEMBER, all spells with a non-Fixed duration are marked with the [C] notation, a reminder that the caster must succeed on a Concentration check at least once each round/minute/hour of the spell's duration in order to maintain the effect.

Saving Throw
This entry lists the saving throw required to shrug off the spell's effects, if any. Some spells do not allow saving throws. Most spells list the saving throw as Fortitude, Reflex, or Will negates, meaning that a successful saving throw ends the spell's effect on that creature, but some saving throws list it as Fortitude, Reflex, or Will Partial, meaning that a successful saving throw only reduces the spell's effect on that creature.

XionUnborn01
2014-01-28, 01:51 PM
I've never seen a fighter actually use Intimidate. Isn't that... wrong, somehow? Even with feats that rely on the skill, it's sub-standard.

It would be good to see AoE Intimidate effects. Just as a bard or marshal has increasing buffs, the fighter could have an increasing Intimidate debuff. For example, "at level X, the penalty increases from -2 to -4", the line offering additional options like reducing it to a Move action. Or a free action, like how certain finesse-based classes can work their way to feint as a free action.

The DMG itself contains a variant rule for skills applying different ability modifiers, a common one being Intimidate = Strength.

You're right, Intimidate does feel like it would fit into someone that's fighting on the front lines and I've always liked the skill. We'll have to find some way to incorporate it into a full class progression. Keying off strength is a great start.


There is an ACF for fighters that makes them really good at intimidating people; they can use it to adjust people's opinion of them much faster than normal, and it lasts weeks.

When it comes to Fighter class features, a good idea is to step back from the concrete, hard rules of fighting, and look at what fighting means, both to the Fighter and to people watching.

Give them class features to cow their enemies and endear their allies through fighting; let them ignore compulsions to harm their allies, laugh off paralysis, and grapple mountains.

Seriously, a chain of class features that builds up to a permanent (Ex) Freedom of Movement, with maybe some thematic drawbacks, wouldn't be remiss. Let them Geas themselves, devoting themselves to a task doggedly.

Because when the going gets tough, the tough get going!

For less over-the-top class features, they should be able to wear medium armor or lighter as PJs. Actually, you know what?

Bitter Experience (Ex): A Fighter may use their class level in place of their ranks for the purposes of all Listen, Spot, and Sense Motive checks.

There. That's their Bardic Knowledge equivalent.

Wow, I had never thought of putting FoM on a fighter but now that you mention it, I'd be hard pressed not to fit it in somewhere. I had written up an ability that scales up increasing max dex and decreasing ACP while also allowing them to sleep in armor without being fatigued, I think it's only fair that if half your defense is coming from armor then you should wear it constantly. I think an aura of fear immunity is a really popular addition and I'd gladly add one in. Bitter Experience is actually almost exactly what I was thinking, it's different from Bardic Knowledge but still will impact the game. Would it be too much to add in the ability to take 10 do you think?


This probably sounds like heresy, but would it be unfair to give the fighter good will saves?

Seconded on skills and freedom of movement. I was actually wondering earlier if there was a skill trick that would emulate freedom of movement?

I have often fought between a good reflex or a good will save, and I've always come back to a good reflex over will. All good saves is the monk's thing and i'm content letting them have that for now unless other people push for all three good.


If the Barbarian is the straight up, raw physical power class (pure Str/Dex/Con savagery), then the Fighter is the warrior who fights smarter not harder (Str/Dex/Con with Int focus), the Ranger is the warrior who fights with cunning and intuition (Str/Dex/Con with Wis focus), and the Paladin fights with conviction and glorious purpose (Str/Dex/Con with Cha focus).

So, I'd want the Fighter to have some abilities that allow him to leverage his smarts on the battlefield, and for more than just Int mod to X stat abilities.

Yes, exactly. I've always thought that the fighter should make use of intelligence. That's part of the reason I think a big help is giving them knowledge skills as class skills. Finding openings in defenses, guiding allies' attacks, so many things can come from utilizing his Int score. I posted a fix a while ago on here and that was one thing that I tried to convey was using Int more, but I have to admit that the fix itself was pretty average.


I based my fix (which you can also find in this section) around these core principles:

1. The fighter is a highly trained, professional soldier. Her abilities should reflect that.
2. The fighter is a capable leader. She should be able to distinguish friend from foe (via Knowledge: Nobility), attend to strategy meetings (via Knowledge: Geography) and know the details of many historical battles (via Knowledge: History).
3. The fighter is a guard. She should have Spot and Listen as class skills.
4. Fighter is a smart soldier, with a variety of special attacks at her disposal. She should benefit from Intelligence.
5. The fighter is a class, so there should be something interesting and/or unique about her.
6. Finally, the fighter shouldn't stumble around the battlefield, getting AoO:d constantly.

Personally, I'd prefer a fix without Leadership, as it complicates what is, at its core, a very simple class.

When I said leadership, I didn't mean the feat if that's what you're thinking. I never use that feat because if one person gets it, everyone wants it and I feel it makes the game a lot more annoying. Your fix is part of the reason I decided to post this. I saw the list you put up of what you wanted from a fighter and I was curious what everyone else thought was essential.


There's so many ways to go about doing this.

The biggest question is how much of a fighting chance do you want them to have against full casters. Do you want abilities on par with the heroes of yore, or are you shooting for something more realistic? Really, the question is largely setting dependent; Gilgamesh probably isn't a good fit for places like Middle-Earth or Westros. Conversely, the power/number of casters should probably scale in direct proportion to the power of non-casters, but I suspect that's beyond the scope of this discussion.

I agree that fighters should probably get more skills and expanded usage of them, though then some might argue over why other classes can't make use of these abilities...

Then there's discussion over whether the fighter should be a master of arms or a leader of men...I'm given to siding on the former approach, as the "leader of men" archetype is already encompassed by the marshal.

I'll also toss out the idea of using some kind of at-will casting mechanic*, not dissimilar to that of the warlock. The idea has been contested in other threads, so I'll go ahead and summarize the issues people take with it. Some will argue that certain techniques are not always viable in the heat of combat, and therefore an at-will casting mechanic for fighters is not realistic. Others will then respond that they should not be artificially denied the ability to use these techniques. And the argument will proceed back and forth in this fashion till all involved become bored and wash their hands of the subject altogether.

Because it's so abstract, there's a number of ways to interpret combat in D&D, so the arguments and counterarguments for and against this mechanic are rather subjective. Personally, I'd say that while the at-will casting and daily casting mechanics may not make perfect sense from either perspective, this is a game we're talking about. It will always be, at some level, unrealistic. There's little point in wasting a perfectly good idea.

*Casting may not be the right word...Think of it more as supernatural skill.

One question that I've always had a hard time answering is how I want them to stack up against casters. My group generally makes casters play well with others and even if a caster solves the problem right away, no one gets upset because we know that we'll get the chance next time. But I would like them to be able to stand a chance but I think the highest I would want to go would be the top of tier 3, brushing into tier 2 maybe higher than that and I think that it would be too over the top for my tastes.

The fighter being a leader of mean was more so just being able to support his allies, not necessarily bringing an army around. Though I would like him to be a master of arms of course, I think that's a generally accepted archetype for the class.

This casting mechanic you're talking about could be interesting. I'd be willing to give it a look if you were able to come up with a few examples so I had a better idea.




Does anyone have any comments about the expanded skill list? Anything need to be added/removed?

Realms of Chaos
2014-01-28, 02:20 PM
The ability to contribute to every encounter, not just combat ones.

Could someone actually explain this to me? I mean, it makes a bit of sense on the surface but I've never really understood this to any great degree.

Outside of combat encounters, D&D does not do "contributing". Seriously, 99% of non-combat difficulties are solved by the actions of just one character.

Think about it. If there's a trap in your way, the rogue takes care of it and everybody else just sits back. If you need to follow tracks, nobody but the ranger needs to do anything. Need to talk to someone? The bard can do it better than you so don't bother.

Mind you, there are some caveats to this:

You might get lucky when someone else fails
You may be able to use the aid another action or have a buff.
Any form of group movement through skills (such as stealth or infiltration with the disguise skill) needs everyone to participate.


Yes, magic includes a ton of redundancy that means they can bypass traps or find creatures or control people better than specialists. Even so, giving the fighter a similar capability to participate in all situations seems like a horrid waste as 99% of such abilities would only be relevant if the fighter were the best in the party at doing that task.

Considering that 1) combat is pretty much the only real place where characters can meaningfully cooperate, 2) that combat is considered to take up most of D&D, and 3) that far too many non-combat "obstacles" can be bypassed with a single skill check or spell (or else involve role-playing or problem-solving where mechanical abilities wouldn't help much), why on earth does every single class need to do something in each encounter?

The Mormegil
2014-01-28, 02:50 PM
Could someone actually explain this to me? I mean, it makes a bit of sense on the surface but I've never really understood this to any great degree.

Outside of combat encounters, D&D does not do "contributing". Seriously, 99% of non-combat difficulties are solved by the actions of just one character.

Think about it. If there's a trap in your way, the rogue takes care of it and everybody else just sits back. If you need to follow tracks, nobody but the ranger needs to do anything. Need to talk to someone? The bard can do it better than you so don't bother.

Mind you, there are some caveats to this:

You might get lucky when someone else fails
You may be able to use the aid another action or have a buff.
Any form of group movement through skills (such as stealth or infiltration with the disguise skill) needs everyone to participate.


Yes, magic includes a ton of redundancy that means they can bypass traps or find creatures or control people better than specialists. Even so, giving the fighter a similar capability to participate in all situations seems like a horrid waste as 99% of such abilities would only be relevant if the fighter were the best in the party at doing that task.

Considering that 1) combat is pretty much the only real place where characters can meaningfully cooperate, 2) that combat is considered to take up most of D&D, and 3) that far too many non-combat "obstacles" can be bypassed with a single skill check or spell (or else involve role-playing or problem-solving where mechanical abilities wouldn't help much), why on earth does every single class need to do something in each encounter?

You are using the wrong definition of encounter. Think of it as "scenario".

D&D has been established as having basically one scenario: the dungeon. However, most people and most groups don't actually do dungeon crawls anymore, quite possibly because every single media that is not D&D does other stuff and most of the time what you do in your game comes from exposure to other media.

Here's a few scenarios that are likely to be used (although I doubt every group uses every single one of these in a single campaign... YMMV):
1) The large-scale war.
2) The court intrigue.
3) The city investigation.
4) The chase in the wilderness.
5) The theft mission.
6) The escort mission.
7) Figure out the McGuffin.
8) Figure out the puzzle.
9) Track down the McGuffin.
10) Travel through wilderness.

Think about it. Each of these can take a lot of time, it can basically be an entire adventure in and of itself (well, apart from the puzzle usually). What does a Fighter do in these situations? He sits in a corner and waits for combat to happen to him. Wizards, rogues, bards, rangers... each of these have stuff they are able to do, that they excel at. Each of the single tasks you highlighted - those a single guy in the group performs - is but a piece for the resolution of the scenario. There is cooperation to solve the scenario, and each character has a chance to shine. Except the fighter, he's dumb and likes swords.

This view is also the root for much of the animosity against wizards. There's spells that kill many of those scenarios, and a wizard has access to all of them if he so chooses. Those spells not only are the best choice for an action, but they also overcome the need for cooperation and bypass much interaction, leaving the rest of the group in the same situation a Fighter is naturally in.

HammeredWharf
2014-01-28, 03:23 PM
I have often fought between a good reflex or a good will save, and I've always come back to a good reflex over will. All good saves is the monk's thing and i'm content letting them have that for now unless other people push for all three good.

I'm for a good Will save. Fighters aren't fluffed to be particularly dexterous and tend to wear heavy armor. On the other hand, they are supposedly THE trained and disciplined soldiers, so a good Will save seems to make sense. Besides, I never understood the logic behind grizzled warriors being scaredy-cats compared to nerdy bookworms.

There's also the fact that having a good Will save is much better than having good Ref. A failed Will save can kill you instantly, disable you for the entire encounter you or turn you against your party. On the other hand, a failed Ref save will most likely just result in you taking slightly more damage.



When I said leadership, I didn't mean the feat if that's what you're thinking. I never use that feat because if one person gets it, everyone wants it and I feel it makes the game a lot more annoying. Your fix is part of the reason I decided to post this. I saw the list you put up of what you wanted from a fighter and I was curious what everyone else thought was essential.

Ah, ok. In that case, I agree.

Mighty_Chicken
2014-01-28, 04:25 PM
Another thing I like about the fighter that is not in OP: it is a simple, general, almost unflavored class. It's the most archetypical of the classes, along with the rogue. Even the cleric already limits flavor a little; while other classes like bards and paladins have almost all flavor done and there is not much to add.

So, following Ziegander's comment on the Fighter's skillfulness, I think the fighter should have the option to choose between minor class abilities.

It would work like this: the fighter has 6+Int mod skill points per level and a delicious class skill list.

Instead of spending all those points in skills (because some fighters aren't skilled, but mere gritty warriors!), a fighter can invest up to 4 skill points/level (and maybe up to 16 at first level?) in the following abilities:

Good Will save: grants +1 bonus to the base save for every 4 skill points invested. Cannot make the base save bigger than the Fort save given by the Fighter class.

Good Reflex save: (same as above)

Uncanny dodge: can be bought investing a total of 6 skill points. Minimum level to start having an effect: Fighter 3.

Rage 1/day: can be bought investing a total of 10 skill points. Additional uses cost 5 skill points (can't have more rage daily uses than a barbarian of same level)

Stance: (I'm not good with ToB...)

Immunity to fear: Investment of 10 skill points, can be broken by character 4 levels higher.

Aura of Courage: Prerequisite: LG alignment, Immunity to fear. Investment of 10 skill points, works just like the Paladin ability.

Bitter experience: 1 rank in Listen, Spot and Sense Motive for every 2 skill points invested.

And so on. I think that with a well thought list of optional abilities it would be a fun and simple fix.

XionUnborn01
2014-01-28, 05:23 PM
I'm for a good Will save. Fighters aren't fluffed to be particularly dexterous and tend to wear heavy armor. On the other hand, they are supposedly THE trained and disciplined soldiers, so a good Will save seems to make sense. Besides, I never understood the logic behind grizzled warriors being scaredy-cats compared to nerdy bookworms.

There's also the fact that having a good Will save is much better than having good Ref. A failed Will save can kill you instantly, disable you for the entire encounter you or turn you against your party. On the other hand, a failed Ref save will most likely just result in you taking slightly more damage.

You know, I was thinking from an in character perspective for the good reflex, here's my reasoning; I've always seen fighters as being mobile/agile in combat. Not like a martial arts movie but something along the lines of many stereotypical medieval fights with the fighters dodging arrows/explosions/rocks. In character I always thought of it as less like rogue-space and more like tactical duck and cover. Having said that, you make a good argument for having a good will save from the meta view. Failing a will save can instantly take you out of the encounter or even campaign while a reflex save rarely can do that (at least from what I can think of off the top of my head). If there's no real argument from anyone against it, I'd be all for giving them good will over reflex.


Another thing I like about the fighter that is not in OP: it is a simple, general, almost unflavored class. It's the most archetypical of the classes, along with the rogue. Even the cleric already limits flavor a little; while other classes like bards and paladins have almost all flavor done and there is not much to add.

So, following Ziegander's comment on the Fighter's skillfulness, I think the fighter should have the option to choose between minor class abilities.

It would work like this: the fighter has 6+Int mod skill points per level and a delicious class skill list.

Instead of spending all those points in skills (because some fighters aren't skilled, but mere gritty warriors!), a fighter can invest up to 4 skill points/level (and maybe up to 16 at first level?) in the following abilities:

Good Will save: grants +1 bonus to the base save for every 4 skill points invested. Cannot make the base save bigger than the Fort save given by the Fighter class.

Good Reflex save: (same as above)

Uncanny dodge: can be bought investing a total of 6 skill points. Minimum level to start having an effect: Fighter 3.

Rage 1/day: can be bought investing a total of 10 skill points. Additional uses cost 5 skill points (can't have more rage daily uses than a barbarian of same level)

Stance: (I'm not good with ToB...)

Immunity to fear: Investment of 10 skill points, can be broken by character 4 levels higher.

Aura of Courage: Prerequisite: LG alignment, Immunity to fear. Investment of 10 skill points, works just like the Paladin ability.

Bitter experience: 1 rank in Listen, Spot and Sense Motive for every 2 skill points invested.

And so on. I think that with a well thought list of optional abilities it would be a fun and simple fix.

This is an interesting idea, but I think that this would be better implemented like a daily choice. You have x points/ level and you allot them daily into what you want that day. Going up against undead today? maybe invest in some fear immunity and so on.

HammeredWharf
2014-01-28, 06:01 PM
You know, I was thinking from an in character perspective for the good reflex, here's my reasoning; I've always seen fighters as being mobile/agile in combat. Not like a martial arts movie but something along the lines of many stereotypical medieval fights with the fighters dodging arrows/explosions/rocks. In character I always thought of it as less like rogue-space and more like tactical duck and cover.

Maybe he could do that via shield abilities? Duck and cover is already uhh... covered by Tower Shield's special ability, but too difficult to use in its vanilla form. On the other hand, given the fighter's already-modular nature it wouldn't be weird to let him choose his second good save. Of course, from the optimization standpoint Will would be the better choice.

XionUnborn01
2014-01-28, 06:15 PM
Maybe he could do that via shield abilities? Duck and cover is already uhh... covered by Tower Shield's special ability, but too difficult to use in its vanilla form. On the other hand, given the fighter's already-modular nature it wouldn't be weird to let him choose his second good save. Of course, from the optimization standpoint Will would be the better choice.

What if we gave the class good fort and will saves and then added the ability to use con or str in place of dex for reflex saves? That should increase the save's value by a lot without having to give a bigger base.

XionUnborn01
2014-01-28, 06:16 PM
Oh, Update for anyone who missed it! I added in some of the proposed ideas at the top of the thread so we have a working list to go from. Please let me know if i missed any!

Alent
2014-01-28, 06:21 PM
I have often fought between a good reflex or a good will save, and I've always come back to a good reflex over will. All good saves is the monk's thing and i'm content letting them have that for now unless other people push for all three good.

I don't want all good saves, just Fort and Will, not because it's the monk's thing but because I think it has the wrong flavor. I don't see Fighter as being amazingly catlike. Were he made so, you would need to make Rogue a fighter variant/ACF. I like the idea of melding Rogue and Fighter, it would shatter all the iconic dynamics. (Even if they don't work, THAT'S the fantasy that brought us here anyway, isn't it?)

What I do see the fighter as is a strongwilled, disciplined, tough as nails leader that fights with his head and escapes from situations with his wit. So the will save seems like a good step, maybe something to let him boost his will save with knowledge checks. (a class feature? a skill trick?)

On that note, I love how almost everyone here agrees on fighter using int in combat- is it the Giant's influence with Roy's character? Or is it Warblade? Or is it inferred when juxtaposing against Barbarian?

Edit: I had to go AFK while writing and didn't do a preview check for swordsages.


What if we gave the class good fort and will saves and then added the ability to use con or str in place of dex for reflex saves? That should increase the save's value by a lot without having to give a bigger base.

I did int to reflex at 2nd level. I also borrowed inspiration from someone else's fix and added a "shield evasion" feature. (eg: you have evasion as long as you're using a shield) The idea was enhancing sword and board without making him all rogue catlike.

XionUnborn01
2014-01-28, 06:27 PM
I don't want all good saves, just Fort and Will, not because it's the monk's thing but because I think it has the wrong flavor. I don't see Fighter as being amazingly catlike. Were he made so, you would need to make Rogue a fighter variant/ACF. I like the idea of melding Rogue and Fighter, it would shatter all the iconic dynamics. (Even if they don't work, THAT'S the fantasy that brought us here anyway, isn't it?)

What I do see the fighter as is a strongwilled, disciplined, tough as nails leader that fights with his head and escapes from situations with his wit. So the will save seems like a good step, maybe something to let him boost his will save with knowledge checks. (a class feature? a skill trick?)

On that note, I love how almost everyone here agrees on fighter using int in combat- is it the Giant's influence with Roy's character? Or is it Warblade? Or is it inferred when juxtaposing against Barbarian?

I was just stating that I didn't want all three saves good to get that out of the way in case anyone was going to suggest it. If you look at my above post I threw out the idea of using strength or con instead of dex for reflex saves.

And I really only go on the forums here so I don't know what roy's character is and I'm not well versed in ToB, I've just always felt that a fighter should be treated more as like a general and not a grunt. He should be making plans and strategies. Many iconic fighter type characters show an above normal intelligence and are really good at making plans. You can't survive on the front lines without some smarts unless you're insane (fighter vs barb).

Darkweave31
2014-01-28, 08:30 PM
This thread has inspired me to quickly make up my own fighter homebrew fix. Going with the intelligent warrior theme I actually ended up mixing in a few factotum-like abilities, including tactic (inspiration) points that the fighter can use on certain abilities. This represents their ability to adapt their tactics to any combat situation and use them to win the day.

Another thing that I am working in is about the one thing I actually liked about 4e, the defender's marking mechanic which made them more appealing targets than the squishy mage.

As for the bonus feats I'm giving the fighter the ability to change them with 1 hour of training. I believe I've seen it on these boards in some form or another before.

Also creating some new fighter only feats that increase in power depending on the number of fighter feats the character has as well as new feats to augment the class abilities in different ways depending on how you want to build your fighter (ranged, melee, intimidating, leader, etc).

I will post the link when it's up on the boards.

Mighty_Chicken
2014-01-28, 09:38 PM
This is an interesting idea, but I think that this would be better implemented like a daily choice. You have x points/ level and you allot them daily into what you want that day. Going up against undead today? maybe invest in some fear immunity and so on.

Sure, if many fighter fixes nowadays have (absolute or limited) feat versatility, why not have (absolute or limited) "skill point investment" versatility?

The simple way would be: X% of the skill points the fighter chose to invest are not allocated in any specific ability. He allocates those points with an hour of training or concentration.

The cooler way (IMO) would be: he fighter can invest how many skill points he wants (up to 4/level) in this Versatile Fighter ability. Every day (or every time he spends an hour training) he can allocate the points invested in this ability in other abilities, but with a 50% bigger cost.

He could also, in an emergency, allocate points in an ability as a full round action, but with a 100% bigger cost instead of 50%. How does that sound?

It's as modular as it gets, because the player can also choose how much versatile her fighter is. Maybe the fighter is 100% versatile, maybe he's an old dog completely unable to use the Versatile ability (ie, has no points invested in Versatile Fighter).

Good idea adding the current ideas in OP!


What I do see the fighter as is a strongwilled, disciplined, tough as nails leader that fights with his head and escapes from situations with his wit. So the will save seems like a good step, maybe something to let him boost his will save with knowledge checks. (a class feature? a skill trick?)

I think this should be a possibility; but every time we give the fighter class any ability that is not specifically tied to hitting things, we're making it less general.

But I also love how almost everyone likes an intelligent fighter! This too, though, should be an option, if possible.


I did int to reflex at 2nd level. I also borrowed inspiration from someone else's fix and added a "shield evasion" feature. (eg: you have evasion as long as you're using a shield) The idea was enhancing sword and board without making him all rogue catlike.

Those are great solutions for sword and board.

Amechra
2014-01-28, 09:44 PM
Well, here's the thing: you can give them "general" abilities without losing their generic nature. It's just rather hard.

Mighty_Chicken
2014-01-28, 10:42 PM
Or, keep them modular. Feats are modular. Things to be done with skill points are modular. ACFs are modular. And so on.

Often in these forums when the fixed Fighter gets some raw power abilities, those are general and do not impose any kind of flavor. Next thing to do is leaving ACFs in the side notes. This is a kind of presentation that helps to keep the class' identity as an archetype.

On skills: I already said the fighter's skill list should be delicious; but it should be modular too. However, that's another thing to leave to the side notes.

Alent
2014-01-28, 10:45 PM
Well, here's the thing: you can give them "general" abilities without losing their generic nature. It's just rather hard.

I believe what he's looking for is "Desired traits" rather than "exact implementation". Which is fairly reasonable, given many fixes feel kinda stab in the dark, emphasize a single trait, or paint with too thin a brush.

Edit: Warbladed.

Vath_The_Spooky
2014-01-29, 01:21 AM
Reading this has given me the clarity I needed to give the Fighter fix justice as part of my personal endeavor to balance out all of DND for my players. With that in mind, here are some things that have been crystalizing for me:

So the Fighter as it exists has no real class features, just feats, and like the tier list says "Good feats are good, but they can be taken by any other character." And "They are generally inferior to Class features".

Another problem of the fighter is lack of versatility and options.

I think the best solution is rather than overhauling the class, I'd think about overhauling it's features. In this case Feats.

I'd like to collect every Bonus Fighter Feat there is and organize them into trees. Then fix the rotten trees (Weapon Focus, Disarming, Flanking Feats), expand on the trees(take the tricks higher than 10th level), Make some new ones focusing on Skill manipulation (including things like imperious Command) and make the whole thing scale based solely on Fighter Level, so that these extra feat based tricks would be their domain only.

In addition, giving them some versatility through a new Feat based Class Feature inspired by the Thinking man Fighter. Since Barbarians are purely physical, Paladins draw off Charisma and Rangers off Wisdom, I agree that it makes great sense to give fighters some Int bonus.

Tactical Practice: Once each day a Fighter may unlearn a number of Fighter Bonus Feats (whether they were taken as Bonus feats earned from class levels or taken as general feats) equal to his Intelligence Bonus, but no greater than 1+1 per 4 fighter levels. In their Place the fighter may immediately learn any fighter bonus feats for which he meats prerequisites. To use this ability the Fighter must practice and prepare for the day ahead, require an hour of exercises.

Tactical Necessity: Starting at 7th Level the Fighter can Use his Tactical Practice as a Full round action, and can use it twice per day.

Tactical Urgency: Starting at 13th level the Fighter can use his Tactical Practice as a Move Action, and the ability can now be used three times per day.

Tactical Perfection: At 19th level the FIghter can switch his tactics on the fly. He can use Tactical Practice as a Swift Action and may use the ability 5 times per day.

Darkweave31
2014-01-29, 01:51 AM
As promised, a link to the fighter fix that I just posted is HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328173)

Hopefully it is an elegant solution to a class with very general flavor.

XionUnborn01
2014-01-29, 02:56 AM
Sure, if many fighter fixes nowadays have (absolute or limited) feat versatility, why not have (absolute or limited) "skill point investment" versatility?

The simple way would be: X% of the skill points the fighter chose to invest are not allocated in any specific ability. He allocates those points with an hour of training or concentration.

The cooler way (IMO) would be: he fighter can invest how many skill points he wants (up to 4/level) in this Versatile Fighter ability. Every day (or every time he spends an hour training) he can allocate the points invested in this ability in other abilities, but with a 50% bigger cost.

He could also, in an emergency, allocate points in an ability as a full round action, but with a 100% bigger cost instead of 50%. How does that sound?

It's as modular as it gets, because the player can also choose how much versatile her fighter is. Maybe the fighter is 100% versatile, maybe he's an old dog completely unable to use the Versatile ability (ie, has no points invested in Versatile Fighter).

So, just to make sure I'm following what you're saying. (i'm just pulling random numbers out for the record)

So at level 1 you have 36 skillpoints and invest all but 16 (if we're allowing x4 investment @1st level). You choose to invest 10 points into the rage ability, gaining it 1/day. leaving you with 6 points which you choose to invest into "Versatile Training". You're going into a dungeon known for traps and decide to up your Reflex save that morning, it costs 4 points normally so you use your 6 remaining and gain a +1 reflex.


If that's how it's going to work I think I'm behind it if we can work out a good list and come up with a way to use points that you can't use, if you have an extra point or 2 left that you can't use I think we should allow it to be put into something simple like AC or something.

Mighty_Chicken
2014-01-29, 12:46 PM
So at level 1 you have 24 skillpoints and invest 8 in skills and 16 in fighter abilities (if we're allowing x4 investment @1st level). You choose to invest 10 points into the rage ability, gaining it 1/day. leaving you with 6 points which you choose to invest into "Versatile Training". You're going into a dungeon known for traps and decide to up your Reflex save that morning, it costs 4 points normally so you use your 6 remaining and gain a +1 reflex.


Aside from the couple of things I corrected, that's precisely what I meant :)

I think that things like a CA bonus should be expensive. Generally, a +1 bonus to CA is worth a feat (dodge, shield specialization, etc). A feat is worth about 5 skill points (Open Minded). So a +1 bonus to CA should cost at least 4 or 5 points.

But there's more: these investing skill points make the fighter very adaptable, even if she's not using Versatile Training. This adaptability is an advantage in itself; should the fighter pay a bigger price because of it?

Maybe she shouldn't in fighter-specific abilities (for example, many stances and maneuvers could be adapted). Maybe she should pay even less in some cases (for example, doesn't it make sense that a fighter pays only "half" a feat - 2 skill points - to become proficient with an Exotic Weapon?).

Other cases should be taxed - when the fighter is stepping just a little over other classes' toes. For example, I don't think good Will and Reflex saves are stepping on anyone else's toes, but minor magical abilities, sneak attack and rage are. So those abilities should cost a little more than they worth.

Concerning left over points, I think they're should be used for legit cases of abilities that are genuinely fighter-specific. For example, small bonuses in maneuvers. +1 bonus in a specific maneuver per skill point does not feel wrong to me, since a Improved [Maneuver] costs only a feat and provides much more than the numerical bonus. Additionally, it fits the flavor of a "weapon master" as a glove.

So in your example, if your fighter doesn't know what to invest in his left over 2 or 3 points, he could always invest it in a maneuver.

Nest time I post, I want to show you this great idea from this Brazilian D20 system, Tormenta RPG. It's a kind of Tome of Battle for dummies: stances are learned at the rate of 2 for a feat, and the feat that grants maneuvers also grant "energy points". So if I bought the maneuver feat 3 times, I know 6 maneuvers and 6 energy points (each maneuver has a different energy cost). I replenish all my energy points by spending a full round action.

Simpler than ToB and just as elegant.

XionUnborn01
2014-01-29, 01:05 PM
I think that a big thing is making sure that we're not punishing the fighter for being versatile because that would defeat the purpose of the class. Adaptability and versatility should be some of their best features in my opinion.

I think the first thing we need to do is decide on a list of features they can use this for and then work on creating a good point system for it. I agree that they shouldn't step all over another class, but I want to avoid making them feel like they're wasting points if they try to implement a feature from another class.

XionUnborn01
2014-01-29, 01:28 PM
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Commander's Tongue, Bonus Feat, Powerful Presence

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Bonus Feat, [Expanded Intimidate 1]

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Commander's Tongue, Bitter Experience, Quick Thinking

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Bonus Feat, Warband's Knowledge, [Freedom of Movement Line 1]

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Commander's Tongue, Insightful Dodge

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Bonus Feat, [Expanded Intimidate 2]

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Commander's Tongue, [Freedom of Movement Line 2]

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Bonus Feat, Quick Command

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Commander's Tongue

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Bonus Feat, [Expanded Intimidate 3], [Freedom of Movement Line 3]

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Commander's Tongue

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Bonus Feat

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Commander's Tongue, [Freedom of Movement Line 4]

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Bonus Feat, [Expanded Intimidate 4]

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Commander's Tongue

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|Bonus Feat, [Freedom of Movement Line 5]

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Commander's Tongue

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Bonus Feat

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Commander's Tongue, [Expanded Intimidate 5], [Freedom of Movement Line 6]

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus Feat

[/table]




Commander's Tongue: At 1st level and every two levels thereafter, the fighter learns a new language. This can be any language other than secret languages.

Bonus Feat: Same as PHB

Powerful Presence: A fighter may add his Strength modifier to his Intimidate checks whenever the target can see him.

Quick Thinking: A Fighter gains his Int bonus on his Initiative checks in addition to his dex.

Bitter Experience (Ex): A Fighter may use their class level in place of their ranks for the purposes of all Listen, Spot, and Sense Motive checks

Warband's Knowledge: A fighter gains a +4 bonus on Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (history), and Knowledge (Geography).

Quick Command: The fighter's allies all gain a bonus to initiative equal to his Int modifier if they are within (20?)feet.

Insightful Dodge: A fighter gains his Int bonus to AC when he's not flatfooted or helpless.

Expanded Intimidate: This is a place holder and by no means official. That's just where I felt might be good benchmarks for the expanded uses of intimidate.

Freedom of Movement Line: A scaling list of features that eventually ad up to freedom of movement. (Possibly make is to that it can negate FoM on an opponent if they're grappling them?)

I wanted to throw up a table of the class with some of the ideas implemented so we had a working point from where to go. This is obviously fare from finished but I think it gives something to work off of.

I threw in a few basic boost abilities so let me know how you feel about them, I think they're simple enough to be implemented.

Darkweave31
2014-01-29, 01:39 PM
The problem with giving the fighter class features that buff intimidate is that, IMO, not all fighters are big, intimidating, bruisers... This gets back to the fighter as generic warrior idea. I feel like a fighter-only feat tree would be an excellent way to give fighters expanded usage of intimidate without defining the class by it.

Like-wise not all fighters are leaders, but a fighter-only feat tree would work to give the player the option to make the lead-from-the-front-lines warrior.

Amechra
2014-01-29, 02:15 PM
If people want feats written up, I offer up my expertise.

However, Fighters still need to get some class features; otherwise, Warblades, Swashbucklers, and Ninjas are poachin' his territory.

Bergor Terraf
2014-01-29, 04:24 PM
How about giving the fighter the ability to substract points from his Attack, Damage or Armor to gain a equivalent bonus to one of the other?

It would show his ability to read the ebb and flow of a battle and adapt to it, knowing when to hold back, find an oppening or go for broke.

You could even improve the ability by giving a similar bonus, but smaller, bonus to allies when you use it (maybe a number of time per battle or day per int mod?).

Mighty_Chicken
2014-01-29, 04:33 PM
Xion, I can't evaluate the power level of the fix you just posted. But, just to use myself as an example of how people's expectations are different regarding fighters, the only class features that fit what I think of a a fighter are bonus feats, bitter experience and insightful dodge. Even insightful dodge contradicts 30-50% of 2E era fighters who were brutes who used all mental stats as dumps. And even Freedom of Movement, which feels very satisfyingly fighter-y, contradicts an even more common fighter archetype, the slow, powerful warrior, regardless of his intelligence.

What I see in your class is, for example, how my fighter could be after I traded a lot of fighter abilities for ACFs.

The original list of class features, however, should be more... bland? I think that straight damage dealing abilities or abilities that grant extra attacks or actions are pretty safe in this sense. Neither an attack, a damage value or an action have a concrete narrative meaning, while an "aura" bonus has the concrete narrative meaning that the fighter is leading or organizing others, for example.

I also think bonuses to maneuvers are also "bland" enough to be in the "core fighter" class features. Is that just me? Is there an archetype of fighter who is not good with at least some maneuvers?


I agree that they shouldn't step all over another class, but I want to avoid making them feel like they're wasting points if they try to implement a feature from another class.

Well, it really shouldn't feel like a waste. But a fighter shouldn't be a better Barbarian than a Barbarian.

A class feature is better than a feat because it's unique; I think if we're breaking the rule, we should pay a price. But we'll only really know once we (hopefully) have more work done.


If people want feats written up, I offer up my expertise.

However, Fighters still need to get some class features; otherwise, Warblades, Swashbucklers, and Ninjas are poachin' his territory.

Yay! But aren't Fighter level restrictions enough?

Some feat fixes have additional benefits when fighters take them, what do you think of it?

Mighty_Chicken
2014-01-29, 04:34 PM
How about giving the fighter the ability to substract points from his Attack, Damage or Armor to gain a equivalent bonus to one of the other?

I just want to point that this seems an example of a pretty "general" fighter feature. This is a compliment.

Jon_Dahl
2014-01-29, 04:42 PM
There's one thing that has always baffled me about fighter.

It's the fighter feats, better known as the Fighter Bonus Feats.

Looking at the fighter class, it takes less than 5 seconds to see that the class is based on feats. Some of those feats are exclusive to the fighter class.

That's all right, but the feat trees are modest. Arguably the biggest highlight which is exclusively reserved to fighters is the Greater Weapon Specialization. After that it's hard (not impossible!) to find worthwhile feats. However, the casters will receive lots of nice things after the 13th level.

So let's expand the feat trees, shall we? Let's put something between the Greater Weapon Specialization and Epic Weapon Specialization that makes it worthwhile to at least try to catch up with the casters. I'm not saying that this will make the fighter equal with casters, but expanding the pitiful fighter feat trees would be something that could fix the fighter a bit without changing it too much.

Wizards potentially receive Wish at the 17th level. What if we just invent a next step beyond the Greater Weapon Specialization and assign it to be available for all the 17th-level fighters? Something like +3 damage? (Well, woohoo!)

Yay/nay?

Alent
2014-01-29, 04:56 PM
How about giving the fighter the ability to substract points from his Attack, Damage or Armor to gain a equivalent bonus to one of the other?

It would show his ability to read the ebb and flow of a battle and adapt to it, knowing when to hold back, find an oppening or go for broke.

You could even improve the ability by giving a similar bonus, but smaller, bonus to allies when you use it (maybe a number of time per battle or day per int mod?).

You mean like the Power Attack or Shock Trooper feats?

Seems like too much bookkeeping with room for fidgety bits to me. "What's your AC ~THIS~ turn. Uh huh. What're you giving up for that?" I may just be biased due to dyscalculia, tho.

Back onto freedom of movement for a bit. I keep trying to figure out ways to make this into a skill check because I want to spread the same feature across the mundane classes in my upcoming campaign, rather than make it "just fighter". The foundation is already there in the Escape Artist skill, but the list is limited. Possibly give the fighter a class level bonus to escape artist checks made to escape spell effects, and improve/change the way Escape Artist works?

XionUnborn01
2014-01-29, 05:54 PM
The problem with giving the fighter class features that buff intimidate is that, IMO, not all fighters are big, intimidating, bruisers... This gets back to the fighter as generic warrior idea. I feel like a fighter-only feat tree would be an excellent way to give fighters expanded usage of intimidate without defining the class by it.

The reason I think intimidate works well for a fighter is not only based off of their bruiser tenancies but more on their prowess. He's just got a look that shows you he know's what he's doing in a fight and that makes him a little more intimidating. I'm not against feat trees but I think that if we're going to build 10 feat trees for a fighter, why don't we just make them into archetypes that you gain as you level in the class? If they don't want intimidate they can get X other bonuses for something, just build some ACFs after the initial class is done but we have to start somewhere or else we're just talking, not creating.


If people want feats written up, I offer up my expertise.

However, Fighters still need to get some class features; otherwise, Warblades, Swashbucklers, and Ninjas are poachin' his territory.

I think everyone would appreciate some new feats written up, especially based on our more intelligence based fighter. I agree that we need to create some class features that are worthwhile.


How about giving the fighter the ability to substract points from his Attack, Damage or Armor to gain a equivalent bonus to one of the other?

It would show his ability to read the ebb and flow of a battle and adapt to it, knowing when to hold back, find an oppening or go for broke.

You could even improve the ability by giving a similar bonus, but smaller, bonus to allies when you use it (maybe a number of time per battle or day per int mod?).


You mean like the Power Attack or Shock Trooper feats?

Seems like too much bookkeeping with room for fidgety bits to me. "What's your AC ~THIS~ turn. Uh huh. What're you giving up for that?" I may just be biased due to dyscalculia, tho.

Back onto freedom of movement for a bit. I keep trying to figure out ways to make this into a skill check because I want to spread the same feature across the mundane classes in my upcoming campaign, rather than make it "just fighter". The foundation is already there in the Escape Artist skill, but the list is limited. Possibly give the fighter a class level bonus to escape artist checks made to escape spell effects, and improve/change the way Escape Artist works?

If we created the features in a well done way, I think that it could be interesting and fun, though we need to make sure we're not just cloning power attack/shock trooper.

What if we implemented something similar to the Unstoppable and Unmovable class abilities of the Legendary Dreadnought from the ELH? Show that he's adept at controlling his positioning on the field.


Xion, I can't evaluate the power level of the fix you just posted. But, just to use myself as an example of how people's expectations are different regarding fighters, the only class features that fit what I think of a a fighter are bonus feats, bitter experience and insightful dodge. Even insightful dodge contradicts 30-50% of 2E era fighters who were brutes who used all mental stats as dumps. And even Freedom of Movement, which feels very satisfyingly fighter-y, contradicts an even more common fighter archetype, the slow, powerful warrior, regardless of his intelligence.

What I see in your class is, for example, how my fighter could be after I traded a lot of fighter abilities for ACFs.

The original list of class features, however, should be more... bland? I think that straight damage dealing abilities or abilities that grant extra attacks or actions are pretty safe in this sense. Neither an attack, a damage value or an action have a concrete narrative meaning, while an "aura" bonus has the concrete narrative meaning that the fighter is leading or organizing others, for example.

I also think bonuses to maneuvers are also "bland" enough to be in the "core fighter" class features. Is that just me? Is there an archetype of fighter who is not good with at least some maneuvers?

I have a few points. First, while I understand that not everyone agrees 100% on what a fighter should be, I think most people have agreed that the old warriors that dumped mental stats is not what a fighter should be. The class I posted wasn't for evaluation but so that everyone that was contributing had at least some idea where that class was at in terms of abilities.

I think one of the biggest mistakes we can make is adding abilities that just add numbers to the attacks or damage. Melee can do damage well enough, we need more options other than just more damage or more attack. I honestly think that if we try to make a 'bland' fighter we'll end up with a class that's no more powerful that the PHB fighter because if we cut out everything with flavor we're left with nothing.

Bonuses to combat maneuvers are totally manageable because those are checks that can be made often and aren't just another 'I attack'.



A barbarian assaults, a rogue sneaks, a paladin smites, a ranger watches but a fighter? A fighter thinks and perfects combat.

Bergor Terraf
2014-01-29, 06:07 PM
So let's expand the feat trees, shall we?


The way I see it, if we make more trees, or make them bigger, we end up having to specialize in one tree to the detriment of the others or dabble in a few, never getting the higher abilities.

I would like the fighter to have something unique apart from feats. Every other class has a little something that only it (or a small group) can do : rogue sneak attack, barbarian rage, etc. Fighter has feats, but EVERYONE has feats. Maybe it's time he got something to call his own.

As for creating fighter-only feats, if only the fighter can take them, why not go all the way, stop calling them feats and make them modular class features? :smallamused:

Quick exemple : Make several ability chains, call them Style or something. At first level, choose 1 "Core" Style and 2-3 "secondary" Styles. The fighter gains the first step in the chains, two first for the core. At regular intervals, he gains access the one more step. Daily, he can swap one or more secondary style (never core) for another more usefull that day.

Hope my humble opinion and ideas help :smallbiggrin:

Yitzi
2014-01-29, 09:22 PM
Could someone actually explain this to me? I mean, it makes a bit of sense on the surface but I've never really understood this to any great degree.

Outside of combat encounters, D&D does not do "contributing". Seriously, 99% of non-combat difficulties are solved by the actions of just one character.

I think you've hit on an important point here; the reason fighters are considered underpowered isn't that they're ineffective, but rather that there's never any time when everybody else is ineffective and they can get the spotlight to themselves...

Vath_The_Spooky
2014-01-30, 01:46 AM
The way I see it, if we make more trees, or make them bigger, we end up having to specialize in one tree to the detriment of the others or dabble in a few, never getting the higher abilities.

I would like the fighter to have something unique apart from feats. Every other class has a little something that only it (or a small group) can do : rogue sneak attack, barbarian rage, etc. Fighter has feats, but EVERYONE has feats. Maybe it's time he got something to call his own.

As for creating fighter-only feats, if only the fighter can take them, why not go all the way, stop calling them feats and make them modular class features? :smallamused:

Quick exemple : Make several ability chains, call them Style or something. At first level, choose 1 "Core" Style and 2-3 "secondary" Styles. The fighter gains the first step in the chains, two first for the core. At regular intervals, he gains access the one more step. Daily, he can swap one or more secondary style (never core) for another more usefull that day.

Hope my humble opinion and ideas help :smallbiggrin:

Modular class features are essnetially what fighter level dependent scaling would provide, with the practical upshot of not having to place them in the fighter build, balance them out, and list them all under fighter.

With Fighter feats scaling according to Fighter only benefits it shows that anybody could learn this trick, since it is purely mundane, but that only a fighter has the dedication and expertise to make the ability shine. and that is his unique shtick, superfying feats.

And by making the entry feat of chains scale, this provides a balance in the breadth versus depth. A fighter who focuses on a feat tree gets all of that chains advanced features. A fighter who takes many entry feats gains many scaling abilities giving him a powerful breadth and wide range of effective options. That's how I'm focusing on my feat rewrite.

Here are my planned feat Chains so far:

Weapon Chain: The basic weapon focus line leading up to Supremacy. Many needing a slight rewrite to be more versatile.

Shield Chain: expanding options for shield use such as granting adjacent allies bonuses, getting evasion, and making tanking a worthwhile endeavor.

Maneuver Chains: These all begin with Combat Expertise (which i'm thinking of changing up a bit so that its bonus applies towards opposed checks for special combat options, and a different feat called Combat Defense takes on the +AC thing.) Each will also be expanded on so that they offer more options at high level.

Tripping Chain: Make this into the Battlefield control Fighter tree, with abilities to entangle foes, change positioning, and impair movement modes of all types.
Sunder Chain: Make this chain a destroyer type, giving bonuses against damage reduction, and make them able to change the battlefield through intelligent destruction. And include a feat which makes salvaging broken magic items easier so that this won't be destroying party treasure.
Disarm Chain: Make this chain essentially about Debuffing, via removal of the foes magic items, and eventually redirection of attacks, with a subfocus on evasion.
Bullrush Chain: Yes move this under Combat expertise, because of its new effect. Also merge with trample. And Dungeon Crasher. The bullrush fighter can move anywhere on the battle field easily and through foes, and should also be able to apply their expertise of charging and barreling through against traps and slowing effects.

Skill Chains: Note give fighters 4+int skillpoints, this represents how they adapt ulterior skills to their combat skill, and vice versa.

Intimidate: This chain lets a fighter's strength do the intimidation, and will also include the classic Imperious command. Evntually this fighter should have some EX fear effects all on his own and be able to use a reputation to break through social encounters.
Jump Style: Think Dragoons... Using spears the Jump Style fighter can hop about the battlefield without provoking,a dn leap upon opponents for extra damage and effects. Jump to avoid attack premptively, and jump higher and farther than should be possible.
Diplomacy Style: This fighter is the more leader type, who can apply that leadership to grant others inspiration and bonuses, and coordinate their movements. This Fighter has some overlap with the marshal for sure, but remains more martially oriented compared to the complete leadership they show.
Ride Style: The Classic Mounted Fighter type. It makes sense to classify it under the Skills since it is so Ride dependent.
I'm open to any other ideas here


Style Chains: Partly drawn from style feats and some other stuff.

Whirlwind Style: Remove the Requirements of Whirlwind attack, as they make no sense. Instead have this chain of Cleave, Greater Cleave, and Mighty Cleave lead up to Whirlwind attack and even later a sweeping strikes ability to hit multiple squares with every attack. For the Fighter who wants to AOE.
Mage-Slayer Style: Making use of the anti mage feats and expanding this chain to grant unique options such as targeted displel with a strike, and some spell reflection. because we've all seen them reflect spells off swords in the movies.
Complete Warrior Feat Chains: I still need to go through these but picking the more flavorful Style feats and making whole chains of feats based off them with useful and versatile effects would be nice.
Edit: Nearly forgot Two Weapon Fighter Feats: Include a prerequisite clause that lets a fighter access these without such a high Dex score, condense the primary feats down so that other feats can be added to this chain which grant it tricks.


Others to come. as they figure out.

Jon_Dahl
2014-01-30, 02:58 AM
With Fighter feats scaling according to Fighter only benefits it shows that anybody could learn this trick, since it is purely mundane, but that only a fighter has the dedication and expertise to make the ability shine. and that is his unique shtick, superfying feats.

I think this is a WONDERFUL idea! It has precedence too: The Stunning Fist feat. It works differently for monks than others.
All fighter feats, every single one, should be like this. All should have a paragraph explaining how it scales for fighters.

IMO you hit the jackpot with this one.

A couple of examples:

Weapon Focus [General]

Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites

Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit

You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special

You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats. He must have Weapon Focus with a weapon to gain the Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.

Special

A fighter who selects this feat gains +1 cumulative bonus to hit per every five levels in fighter class.



Weapon Specialization [General]

Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You deal extra damage when using this weapon.
Prerequisites

Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th.
Benefit

You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Special

You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter may select Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats.

A fighter who selects this feat gains +1 cumulative bonus to damage per every six levels in fighter class beyond fourth.

Grinner
2014-01-30, 08:03 AM
With Fighter feats scaling according to Fighter only benefits it shows that anybody could learn this trick, since it is purely mundane, but that only a fighter has the dedication and expertise to make the ability shine. and that is his unique shtick, superfying feats.

Sort of like caster levels, but for Fighters?

Darkweave31
2014-01-30, 08:34 AM
Here's how I handled them in my fix. Basically the feats require fighter levels, and scale depending on how many fighter feats you have. So yes, characters that only dip fighter could take them, but the fighter will always get the far greater benefit due to the sheer amount of feats they'd have

Championís Focus
Prerequisites: Fighter level 1, proficiency in selected weapon
Benefit: Select a weapon in which you are proficient. You gain +1 to attack with that weapon for each fighter feat you possess.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. A fighter may select Champion's Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Championís Specialization
Prerequisites: Fighter level 4, Champion's focus in selected weapon
Benefits: Select a weapon in which you are proficient. You gain +2 damage with that weapon for each fighter feat you possess.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. A fighter may select Champion's Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Championís Defense
Prerequisites: Fighter level 2
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus AC for each fighter feat you possess. If you are wielding a shield, this bonus also applies to reflex saves.
Special: This counts as the dodge feat for the purpose of prerequisites. A fighter may select Champion's Defense as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Championís Reflexes
Prerequisites: Fighter level 2
Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your dexterity modifier plus the number of fighter feats you have. With this feat you may make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Special: This counts as combat reflexes for the purpose of prerequisites. A fighter may select Champion's Reflexes as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Composer99
2014-01-30, 09:29 AM
With respect to weapon focus/weapon specialization, one thing I think is a good idea for those feats, at least as they apply to fighters, is to make them apply to a selected group of weapons, instead of a single weapon.

If you wanted another way to make them stand out, the feats could provide basic and advanced "weapon tricks" for some or all weapons. I believe there is a thread dedicated to crafting such special abilities. You could make these either a generic part of the feat or a fighter-only (or full-BAB-only) part.

Edit: I would say that, given the expansion of weapon specialization as above, it could be opened up to any character (make it BAB +4 or better pre-req instead of 4 fighter levels), with fighters still benefitting more.

More Edit: Here is the "weapon trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14990588)" thread I was thinking of.

NotScaryBats
2014-01-30, 11:34 AM
A Fighter gets to add her Class Levels in Fighter to Combat Manuever rolls like Tripping and Disarming.

A Fighter adds half her Class Levels in Fighter to AC as a Deflection bonus.

A Fighter adds 1/3 her Class Levels in Fighter to Attack and Damage Rolls.

At level 5, 10, 15, 20, Fighter can choose a Magic Weapon Special Property. She can add it to any weapon she wields. Maybe at level 5, she chooses Keen. Whenever she holds a weapon, it counts as Keen.

Fighter can meditate, train, drink booze, sharpen her sword, whatever X times a day (Con Mod?) to regain her own hit points.

Keep extra feats, open them up with stuff like Track for more out of combat versatility.

Vath_The_Spooky
2014-01-30, 02:45 PM
A Fighter gets to add her Class Levels in Fighter to Combat Manuever rolls like Tripping and Disarming.

A Fighter adds half her Class Levels in Fighter to AC as a Deflection bonus.

A Fighter adds 1/3 her Class Levels in Fighter to Attack and Damage Rolls.



This is a common misconception about fighter fixes. The fighter doesn't need much bigger numbers. They can already hit things well, and do damage well. the kind of boost you suggest here does nothing but make the dice irrelevant except for 1s and threats.

Fighter's don't need bigger numbers, they need more choices for what to do with those numbers.


At level 5, 10, 15, 20, Fighter can choose a Magic Weapon Special Property. She can add it to any weapon she wields. Maybe at level 5, she chooses Keen. Whenever she holds a weapon, it counts as Keen.


I've thought about this in the past but it scuffs against the flavor of the fighter being purely martial with no internal supernatural powers. And getting keen is easy enough in martial sense with Improved citical. Maybe there should be more feats like it though, feats which mimic the effects of certain weapon properties without being in and of themselves magical. Come to think of it, Combat Expertise (or as I call it, Combat Defense) functions very similarly to the Defending enchantment.


Fighter can meditate, train, drink booze, sharpen her sword, whatever X times a day (Con Mod?) to regain her own hit points.


Meditation is more the monk thing, and sharpening sword would recover HP how? Training would also tire you out not recover.

As for the booze thing, maybe a feat that lets you chug booze for temp hp, but not real hp.



Keep extra feats, open them up with stuff like Track for more out of combat versatility.

Track falls on the Ranger's toes, and My hope is to give the Fighter more unique things for just him to give. Especially since last I checked Survival isn't a class skill, a choice I actually support for flavor reasons.

NotScaryBats
2014-01-30, 03:41 PM
That's interesting. I disagree with you, but here's why:

"This is a common misconception about fighter fixes. The fighter doesn't need much bigger numbers. They can already hit things well, and do damage well. the kind of boost you suggest here does nothing but make the dice irrelevant except for 1s and threats.

Fighter's don't need bigger numbers, they need more choices for what to do with those numbers."

A Fighter should have bigger numbers, because they currently don't have any class features that make them much better at fighting. Unless you specialize, you can't grapple, trip, or sunder. If you add +5 to those checks at level 5, you won't necessarily be awesome at it, but you'll likely be better than your comrades, which is my point.

Getting free deflection and to hit and damage allow you to spend your WBL elsewhere, opening up either noncombat items for utility or more specialization in your feat and enchantment choices, while giving a slight boost to your Touch AC which Fighters need.

In other words, more choices of things to do with those numbers.

"I've thought about this in the past but it scuffs against the flavor of the fighter being purely martial with no internal supernatural powers. And getting keen is easy enough in martial sense with Improved citical. Maybe there should be more feats like it though, feats which mimic the effects of certain weapon properties without being in and of themselves magical. Come to think of it, Combat Expertise (or as I call it, Combat Defense) functions very similarly to the Defending enchantment."

This not only allows you to spend your WBL elsewhere, but feats elsewhere as well. If explicitly magical enchantments bother you, either disallow them or choose different ones. Also, being a Master of Arms is impossible if all of your feats require you to choose a certain weapon. If you're a sword user and you pick up an axe? Suddenly, all of your training is useless.

"Meditation is more the monk thing, and sharpening sword would recover HP how? Training would also tire you out not recover.

As for the booze thing, maybe a feat that lets you chug booze for temp hp, but not real hp."

Make Fighters more self-sufficient by being able to out of combat heal themselves. However you wanna fluff it, but being a Fighting Person really should allow you to be moderately self-sufficient. If you want to give them Heal (the skill) and require them to bandage themselves up, then that's fine too.

"Track falls on the Ranger's toes, and My hope is to give the Fighter more unique things for just him to give. Especially since last I checked Survival isn't a class skill, a choice I actually support for flavor reasons."

There are so many classes that walk on each other's toes... If you want to lead people, there's Bard or Marshal, if you want wilderness, Druid or Ranger... There's honestly nothing you can do out of combat that no one else can do. If you don't want Survival (A mercenary who can't hack it in the woods? A guard who doesn't know how to hunt? I don't understand this logic) then that's one thing, but the idea is to allow for non-combat feat choices to further broaden your horizons in the direction you want to take the character.

In essence, I feel the modularity of the Fighter is a strong point, so by hard-baking in the combat stuff (Fighters should be good at Fighting) you can allow the Skills and Feats and Bonus Feats to go towards whatever the player wants.

There are lots of feats in the game, a lot of them are cool but just suboptimal, I don't think making more of them that are better is necessarily the answer, since if you want Fighter Only Stuff, just make it a Class Feature rather than a Fighter Only Feat.

Bergor Terraf
2014-01-30, 04:00 PM
There are lots of feats in the game, a lot of them are cool but just suboptimal, I don't think making more of them that are better is necessarily the answer, since if you want Fighter Only Stuff, just make it a Class Feature rather than a Fighter Only Feat.

We think alike. For me, feats should be something you add to complement your abilities. Something general everybody can take. More specialisation should come from the class ability themselves.

Seerow
2014-01-30, 04:33 PM
We think alike. For me, feats should be something you add to complement your abilities. Something general everybody can take. More specialisation should come from the class ability themselves.

Feats in general shouldn't be abilities.

The problem is that the Fighter makes it so feats need to be abilities.


I much prefer the idea of a system where you have a universal resource everyone dips into for the small passive benefits that represent most of the feats in the game, while mundane characters get a separate set of abilities that are made up of the more active feats and new active capabilities.

CaDzilla
2014-01-30, 04:48 PM
Fighters are skilled warriors, so they need more skill points. They also are proficient with weapons, so they should probably have use magic device and use psionic device.

Figgin of Chaos
2014-01-30, 09:31 PM
Abilities that function differently depending on what kind of weapon the fighter is wielding.

The idea is, any barbarian or paladin or what have you can pick up a martial weapon, potentially even specializing in one. But only a fighter can use a weapon to its full potential, elevating its use to an art form.

Note that that should apply to all weapons, not just a given one or subset. A high-level fighter should have fighter-exclusive abilities for swords, maces, one-handed weapons, two-handed weapons, etc. A fighter might specialize further into a favored type of weapon, but would still be uniquely effective with all weapons.

drew2u
2014-01-31, 09:13 AM
Personally I think the Fighter class should sort of be the base "starter" class for new players. The first couple of levels should be relatively easy to understand and there shouldn't be so many choices of abilities that it essentially becomes another monk/druid/spellcaster with /per-day abilities.

I don't care how "factotum did it!" as it's not a Core class, nor do I care about whatever that splat-book that has stances/whatever in it. Balance the class against the other Core classes and call it good.

The Fighter shouldn't necessarily be a "simple" class, mind you, but it shouldn't turn into a melee version of spellcaster, either.

Seerow
2014-01-31, 10:35 AM
Except skill points are specifically about non-combat abilities (Bluff excepted for feinting, and Tumble for certain other stuff). Being better at combat doesn't translate into a general skill bonus.

Jump? Climb? Swim? Balance? Knowledges? Concentration? Intimidate? Ride? UMD? This is in addition to Bluff and Tumble you already mentioned.

Seriously, half the skills in the game are usable in combat. And even ignoring that, the Fighter shouldn't be restricted to only things that are in-combat useful, even if its name is Fighter, everyone needs to be able to contribute in other situations. (Unless you go the route Realms of Chaos did and say "Nobody except the fighter should be useful in combat", which I don't think most people want)

Composer99
2014-01-31, 11:46 AM
Personally I think the Fighter class should sort of be the base "starter" class for new players. The first couple of levels should be relatively easy to understand and there shouldn't be so many choices of abilities that it essentially becomes another monk/druid/spellcaster with /per-day abilities.

I don't care how "factotum did it!" as it's not a Core class, nor do I care about whatever that splat-book that has stances/whatever in it. Balance the class against the other Core classes and call it good.

The Fighter shouldn't necessarily be a "simple" class, mind you, but it shouldn't turn into a melee version of spellcaster, either.

The Wizard is quite possibly the second-simplest class in the game. The class features are: some bonus feats, a familiar, and spellcasting.

The complexity of the class (and its power) comes from the spells.


In addition, far better IMO to have a "starter set" with simpler rules and stripped-down classes (or spell lists) all around, instead of saddling a core class with the role of "newb trainer".

drew2u
2014-01-31, 12:17 PM
The complexity of the class (and its power) comes from the spells.

Which is my point. In my own opinion, I see the fighter getting things such as endurance, quickdraw, (I had a list somewhere around here...) as class abilities without needing to spend feats to get them.
As I see it, Almost every other class has per-day abilities (Barbarian:Rage, Spellcasters:Spells, Paladin:Smite, Monk:Ki pool, etc) so by the end of the day, options for surviving encounters are limited. I see the Fighter as being the stalwart sentry that - while not a constant on-guard character - can react to fights instantaneously and won't be hampered by such things as running out of per-day abilities or sleeping-in-armor-penalties.
Sure, in my idea, a Fighter may not be as showy as a raging Barbarian or an Evoker or a Bearshaping Druid, but the fighter has stamina and staying power.
(but again, it's all IMO)

ddude987
2014-01-31, 01:19 PM
What a Fighter "fix" needs to be is options. The wizard, as simple as it is, wins because options. Having more combat capability, while nice, isn't really what the fighter needs. Of course, this depends on your opinion of a fighter. My opinion is that casting should be superior to martial, but I grew up reading Dragonlance.

Some things that would be nice, but not make a big difference would be:
-more class skills
-at least 4 skill points per level
-one more good save, be it Ref or Will, depends on the choice of flavor there

Some nice new class features:
-A way to defeat miss chance
-A way to ignore crowd control/save or suck/save or die
-A way to defeat traps
-Flight

and that's really just the beginning. In my opinion, you can't really make a fighter better than a wizard while sticking to flavor, so why not go all out and give it everything you can think of and then some.

Seerow
2014-01-31, 02:32 PM
"Being good at weapons" and "being good at skills usable in combat" are not the same thing. And half of those you listed are corner cases anyway.

Who says the Fighter should only be good at weapons? The Fighter is good at fighting, which should at minimum include those skills that come up while fighting.

Seriously, what is up with people who insist that the fighter needs to suck? I don't get it.

Erberor
2014-01-31, 03:50 PM
The big problem with fixing a fighter properly is that you inevitably end up defining the fighter's role. The task of making a class generic enough to fit any theme or concept is exactly the sort of thing that results in the fighter we see in the Player's Handbook.

The best solution is probably to create different classes to represent different archetypes of the fighter. That way you don't end up having your fighter being Captain Fighter McWarrior the Generic.

PairO'Dice Lost
2014-01-31, 04:01 PM
The big problem with fixing a fighter properly is that you inevitably end up defining the fighter's role.

Not necessarily. The wizard can be an illusionist, a summoner, a necromancer, a pyromancer, a gish, Gandalf, and many many other concepts...but its class features consist of a familiar, bonus feats, and spells. The warblade is less generic, given its Int focus and the disciplines it has access to, but you can still make many concepts with one and giving it access to the non-magical disciplines it can't already access would enable more concepts without drastically changing its concept at all.

You can make a generic fighter who can fill multiple roles by making the basic chassis of the fighter generic and writing up enough feats/talents/maneuvers/whatever to support all the roles you want to support. If there are things that the fighter must have to fill a given role (so you don't want to make them a feat/maneuver/etc. because it would be a trap not to take it), either fold those things into the basic combat system or make a separate list of "you must have at least one of these to function" powers to go with its list of "you can take whatever you want and be fine" powers.

Dragonexx
2014-01-31, 10:55 PM
Fighters get all good saves, 6+int skills with every skill save UMD and ways to bypass for the casters "win buttons." (I.E. force effects, blasphemy, invisibility, illusions)

Also things that let them affect the plot. For example, I was in a thread on the gaming den where someone suggested the idea of letting the fighter cure an affliction like disease or curses by killing it. Something like causing a level appropriate fiend to appear and then killing that, causing the affliction to vanish.

XionUnborn01
2014-01-31, 11:59 PM
I would like the fighter to have something unique apart from feats. Every other class has a little something that only it (or a small group) can do : rogue sneak attack, barbarian rage, etc. Fighter has feats, but EVERYONE has feats. Maybe it's time he got something to call his own.

Quick exemple : Make several ability chains, call them Style or something. At first level, choose 1 "Core" Style and 2-3 "secondary" Styles. The fighter gains the first step in the chains, two first for the core. At regular intervals, he gains access the one more step. Daily, he can swap one or more secondary style (never core) for another more usefull that day.

I like the idea of this. what about making styles that require you to have certain feats to begin with? That way when you've switched out for a different style you don't just 'forget' how to grapple for instance. Either way I like this idea.


Modular class features are essentially what fighter level dependent scaling would provide, with the practical upshot of not having to place them in the fighter build, balance them out, and list them all under fighter.

With Fighter feats scaling according to Fighter only benefits it shows that anybody could learn this trick, since it is purely mundane, but that only a fighter has the dedication and expertise to make the ability shine. and that is his unique shtick, superfying feats.

And by making the entry feat of chains scale, this provides a balance in the breadth versus depth. A fighter who focuses on a feat tree gets all of that chains advanced features. A fighter who takes many entry feats gains many scaling abilities giving him a powerful breadth and wide range of effective options. That's how I'm focusing on my feat rewrite.

Here are my planned feat Chains so far: (awesome chains, removed for length.)

I really like how this looks and it ties in with Bergor's 'styles' idea.


I think this is a WONDERFUL idea! It has precedence too: The Stunning Fist feat. It works differently for monks than others.
All fighter feats, every single one, should be like this. All should have a paragraph explaining how it scales for fighters.

IMO you hit the jackpot with this one.

A couple of examples:

Weapon Focus [General]

Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites

Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit

You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special

You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats. He must have Weapon Focus with a weapon to gain the Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.

Special

A fighter who selects this feat gains +1 cumulative bonus to hit per every five levels in fighter class.



Weapon Specialization [General]

Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You deal extra damage when using this weapon.
Prerequisites

Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th.
Benefit

You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Special

You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter may select Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats.

A fighter who selects this feat gains +1 cumulative bonus to damage per every six levels in fighter class beyond fourth.


These are a good start though I'd prefer new abilities instead of more numbers.


Here's how I handled them in my fix. Basically the feats require fighter levels, and scale depending on how many fighter feats you have. So yes, characters that only dip fighter could take them, but the fighter will always get the far greater benefit due to the sheer amount of feats they'd have

Championís Focus
Prerequisites: Fighter level 1, proficiency in selected weapon
Benefit: Select a weapon in which you are proficient. You gain +1 to attack with that weapon for each fighter feat you possess.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. A fighter may select Champion's Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Championís Specialization
Prerequisites: Fighter level 4, Champion's focus in selected weapon
Benefits: Select a weapon in which you are proficient. You gain +2 damage with that weapon for each fighter feat you possess.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. A fighter may select Champion's Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Championís Defense
Prerequisites: Fighter level 2
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus AC for each fighter feat you possess. If you are wielding a shield, this bonus also applies to reflex saves.
Special: This counts as the dodge feat for the purpose of prerequisites. A fighter may select Champion's Defense as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Championís Reflexes
Prerequisites: Fighter level 2
Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your dexterity modifier plus the number of fighter feats you have. With this feat you may make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Special: This counts as combat reflexes for the purpose of prerequisites. A fighter may select Champion's Reflexes as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Ooh, this is interesting. making them like the vile/abyssal/other feats that scale off of each other. This is an idea that we should run with I think.


With respect to weapon focus/weapon specialization, one thing I think is a good idea for those feats, at least as they apply to fighters, is to make them apply to a selected group of weapons, instead of a single weapon.

If you wanted another way to make them stand out, the feats could provide basic and advanced "weapon tricks" for some or all weapons. I believe there is a thread dedicated to crafting such special abilities. You could make these either a generic part of the feat or a fighter-only (or full-BAB-only) part.

Edit: I would say that, given the expansion of weapon specialization as above, it could be opened up to any character (make it BAB +4 or better pre-req instead of 4 fighter levels), with fighters still benefitting more.

More Edit: Here is the "weapon trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14990588)" thread I was thinking of.

I contacted the OP of that thread. Hopefully he's going to okay us using it as abilities. I'm REALLY excited about using them.

XionUnborn01
2014-02-01, 12:05 AM
Abilities that function differently depending on what kind of weapon the fighter is wielding.

The idea is, any barbarian or paladin or what have you can pick up a martial weapon, potentially even specializing in one. But only a fighter can use a weapon to its full potential, elevating its use to an art form.

Note that that should apply to all weapons, not just a given one or subset. A high-level fighter should have fighter-exclusive abilities for swords, maces, one-handed weapons, two-handed weapons, etc. A fighter might specialize further into a favored type of weapon, but would still be uniquely effective with all weapons.

So something along the monk's natural weapon enhancements it gets but better and something the fighter applies to all weapons he wields? I can get behind that.


Personally I think the Fighter class should sort of be the base "starter" class for new players. The first couple of levels should be relatively easy to understand and there shouldn't be so many choices of abilities that it essentially becomes another monk/druid/spellcaster with /per-day abilities.

I don't care how "factotum did it!" as it's not a Core class, nor do I care about whatever that splat-book that has stances/whatever in it. Balance the class against the other Core classes and call it good.

The Fighter shouldn't necessarily be a "simple" class, mind you, but it shouldn't turn into a melee version of spellcaster, either.

I agree with you to a certain extent. I want the final class be simple enough that someone playing the first time can pick it up and go with relative ease while it has enough options and power to be usable alongside mid level tier 1s

XionUnborn01
2014-02-01, 12:15 AM
Some nice new class features:
-A way to defeat miss chance
-A way to ignore crowd control/save or suck/save or die
-A way to defeat traps
-Flight

and that's really just the beginning. In my opinion, you can't really make a fighter better than a wizard while sticking to flavor, so why not go all out and give it everything you can think of and then some.

Flight is always a sticking point. I can never think of a good way to implement it without wuxia air walking or just 'you can fly, because reasons.' Otherwise good points!


The big problem with fixing a fighter properly is that you inevitably end up defining the fighter's role. The task of making a class generic enough to fit any theme or concept is exactly the sort of thing that results in the fighter we see in the Player's Handbook.

The best solution is probably to create different classes to represent different archetypes of the fighter. That way you don't end up having your fighter being Captain Fighter McWarrior the Generic.

I think the key is to create enough options that can be changed daily/hourly/whatever to let the fighter be a 'master of everything' when he needs to be while implementing some static features that benefit everyone.


Fighters get all good saves, 6+int skills with every skill save UMD and ways to bypass for the casters "win buttons." (I.E. force effects, blasphemy, invisibility, illusions)

Also things that let them affect the plot. For example, I was in a thread on the gaming den where someone suggested the idea of letting the fighter cure an affliction like disease or curses by killing it. Something like causing a level appropriate fiend to appear and then killing that, causing the affliction to vanish.

The invisibility/illusion we may need to make sure to include something for. Killing the disease sounds like an awesome concept but I just fear having to create a new fiend for nearly every CR just for afflictions. Still an awesome image though.

You think you can give my family the mumps?! HAVE AT THEE, OH MIGHTY MUMPS CAUSING DEMON!

Ziegander
2014-02-01, 01:15 AM
What is this out-of-combat you speak of? Give me the "Fight Anything" class feature which lets me do battle with concepts and traps and poisons and mind-affecting abilities. Why should I solve a mystery when I can slay it more easily? Why should I teleport when I can deal lethal damage to distance? Fight Anything! It's the wave of the future!

XionUnborn01
2014-02-01, 02:15 AM
There's a volcano? I attack it to fix everything!
What? I catch on fire when I get close? I'll attack the fire to heal myself! What? I hurt myself when I attack the flame? I'll attack my sword with my sword to stop it from hurting!
What? My sword gets hurt when I attack it with itself? I'll attack it's itself with itself to make itself not hurt!

Ziegander
2014-02-01, 08:15 AM
I am strongly considering writing the Fight Anything Fighter, you understand.

XionUnborn01
2014-02-01, 12:05 PM
I think someone made something along those lines before in an attempt to make a tier 1 fighter. I'll see if i can find it. I seem to remember it punching a hole in the universe to use gate or something.

Ziegander
2014-02-01, 01:47 PM
I already know how I'm going to do it too. I'll start with substituting attacks for skill checks and give the Fighter special effects on a critical hit dependent on class level. Stuff like fighting disease follows naturally from "Heal attacks." Other stuff will include self-resurrection through fighting Death. In all cases though, the idea is that, since the Fighter is best at fighting, he has the ability to turn all non-combat encounters into combat encounters and "solve" them through his martial prowess.

Hadrian_Emrys
2014-02-01, 05:23 PM
I already know how I'm going to do it too. I'll start with substituting attacks for skill checks and give the Fighter special effects on a critical hit dependent on class level. Stuff like fighting disease follows naturally from "Heal attacks." Other stuff will include self-resurrection through fighting Death. In all cases though, the idea is that, since the Fighter is best at fighting, he has the ability to turn all non-combat encounters into combat encounters and "solve" them through his martial prowess.


http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/1/19821/694167-armstrong.jpg

"This Diplomacy check technique has been passed down through the Armstrong family for generations!"

The Mormegil
2014-02-01, 05:30 PM
I think someone made something along those lines before in an attempt to make a tier 1 fighter. I'll see if i can find it. I seem to remember it punching a hole in the universe to use gate or something.

Chassis: d12, full BAB, all high saves.

Skills: 4+Int. Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Linguistics, Perception (Wis) Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str) and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Fighter Feats: As normal for a fighter.

Magic Resistance: You gain a bonus on saves against magic: +2 at level 1, +3 at level 5 and +1 every five levels thereafter, caps at +6 at level 20.

Antimagic Training: A fighter is good at fighting against spellcasters.
You gain the ability to smell magic at level 1. By spending a standard action, you gain the benefits of detect magic for one round (except you're smelling). The effect ends immediately afterwards, so you cannot get more than the presence of magic auras out of it.
At level 4 you gain resistance equal to half your class level to fire, cold and lightning.
At level 7 every time he readies an action to disrupt a spellcast he deals double damage with the attack.
At level 10 he can spend one minute to memorize counters to various spells, gaining the benefits of spell immunity. As normal, he can only be subject to one spell immunity effect at a time.
At level 13, you can spend a standard action to make a melee attack. If you hit, the target of the melee attack is subject to greater dispel magic.
At level 16 he benefits from greater spell immunity rather than spell immunity.
At level 19, every time he passes a save against a spell, he can return the spell as if he was under the effect of a spell turning.

Master of Improvisation: A fighter is so good at fighting with everything, he can cause some magical effects. Each of these can be used up to three times per day. Caster level is class level, DC is based on Intelligence.
At level 2, a fighter with access to at least a liter of oil or other lubrificant can cause an effect equivalent to grease.
At level 5, a fighter with access to chalk, sand, flour or similar substances can spread it around to reveal and blind creatures, as per glitterdust.
At level 8, provided he has something broad and light to move about, he can muster a wind wall.
At level 11, he can move so quickly he does a shunpo. I mean, dimension door.
At level 14, he can stomp the ground and create a stone wall.
At level 17, he is so skilled he can look into the future, gaining a moment of prescience.
At level 20, he can punch through reality and create a gate.

Tenacity: A fighter is tough as nails. You progressively gain immunity to certain conditions.
At level 3, you are immune to paralysis and sleep.
At level 6, you are immune to poison and diseases.
At level 9, you are immune to fear.
At level 12, you are immune to disintegration and polymorph. You can be subject to harmless polymorph effects if you specifically allow the spell to take place.
At level 15, you are immune to death effects.
At level 18, you are immune to illusions and mind-affecting spells, as if under a permanent mind blank.







There. I had fun. Probably tier 2, maybe 3 but the antimage stuff is pretty good when paired with a strong fighter class (pun!) and decent battlefield control thanks to his SLAs. With the obvious exception of gate being ridiculously broken even at level 20, but it's there mostly because you said it.

XionUnborn01
2014-02-02, 01:38 AM
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Commander's Tongue, Bonus Feat, Powerful Presence

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Bonus Feat, [Expanded Intimidate 1]

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Commander's Tongue, Bitter Experience, Quick Thinking, Mettle, Calloused Warrior

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Bonus Feat, Warband's Knowledge, [Freedom of Movement Line 1], Weapon's Mastery (+1)

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Commander's Tongue, Insightful Dodge, Combat Awareness (10ft), Veteran's Sight (15%)

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Bonus Feat, [Expanded Intimidate 2], Evasion, Calloused Warrior

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Commander's Tongue, [Freedom of Movement Line 2], Wary Disbelief

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Bonus Feat, Quick Command, Veteran's Sight (30%), Weapon's Mastery (+1)

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Commander's Tongue, Combat Awareness (20ft), Calloused Warrior

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Bonus Feat, [Expanded Intimidate 3], [Freedom of Movement Line 3]

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Commander's Tongue, Veteran's Sight (45%)

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Bonus Feat, Weapon's Mastery (+2), Calloused Warrior

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Commander's Tongue, [Freedom of Movement Line 4], Combat Awareness (30ft)

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Bonus Feat, [Expanded Intimidate 4], Veteran's Sight (60%)

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Commander's Tongue, Calloused Warrior

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|Bonus Feat, [Freedom of Movement Line 5], Weapon's Mastery (+2)

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Commander's Tongue, Combat Awareness (40ft), Veteran's Sight (75%)

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Bonus Feat, Calloused Warrior

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Commander's Tongue, [Expanded Intimidate 5], [Freedom of Movement Line 6]

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus Feat, Veteran's Sight (All Miss Chance), Weapon's Mastery (+3)

[/table]





Commander's Tongue: At 1st level and every two levels thereafter, the fighter learns a new language. This can be any language other than secret languages.

Bonus Feat: Same as PHB

Powerful Presence: A fighter may add his Strength modifier to his Intimidate checks whenever the target can see him.

Quick Thinking: A Fighter gains his Int bonus on his Initiative checks in addition to his dex.

Bitter Experience (Ex): A Fighter may use their class level in place of their ranks for the purposes of all Listen, Spot, and Sense Motive checks

Warband's Knowledge: A fighter gains a +4 bonus on Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (history), and Knowledge (Geography).

Quick Command: The fighter's allies all gain a bonus to initiative equal to his Int modifier if they are within (20?)feet.

Insightful Dodge: A fighter gains his Int bonus to AC when he's not flatfooted or helpless.

Expanded Intimidate: This is a place holder and by no means official. That's just where I felt might be good benchmarks for the expanded uses of intimidate.

Freedom of Movement Line: A scaling list of features that eventually ad up to freedom of movement. (Possibly make is to that it can negate FoM on an opponent if they're grappling them?)

New Class Features

Veteran's Sight: At 5th level a Fighter reduces the miss chance from any source, including blindness, darkness or etherealness (assuming he can damage an ethereal creature) by 15%. So a fighter attacking a displacer beast would have only a 35% miss chance. This increases by 15% at 8th, 11th, 14th, and 17th level until, at 20th level, all miss chances are negated.
All allies within 15 feet of the fighter gain half the benefit of this feature (rounded down) as the fighter directs and assists them.

Wary Disbelief: A fighter gains a +5 bonus on saving throws against illusions and furthermore, may make a saving throw without interacting with an illusion provided it is withing 10ft per point of Int modifier.

Mettle: As Hexblade. (3rd level? Not sure about placement.)

Evasion: As Rogue, though it functions in all types of armor. (6th level? Again, not sure of the placement.)

Combat Awareness: Blindsense 10ft at 5th level, 20ft at 9th, 30ft at 13th, 40ft at 17th.

Weapon Mastery: At 4th level you choose any +1 special weapon ability. This applies to every weapon you wield as long as it could normally be applied to that type of weapon. At 8th level you may choose another +1 ability, at 12th and 16th level level you may choose any +2 ability, at 20th level you may choose any +4 ability. With any of these, you may choose to split up the abilities into lower level ones, for instance, at 16th level you may instead choose to get two +1 enchantments. (While I'm not always a big fan of this, I think if it's fluffed well as an embodiment of the fighting spirit or some such thing it can be implemented well. This is the one ability that I expect to cause the most unhappiness but we'll see.)

Calloused Warrior: A fighter's seen enough fighting in his time that he eventually becomes accustomed to certain tricks.
3rd level you gain immunity to fear and sleep effects.
6th level you gain immunity to paralysis and poisons.
9th level you gain immunity to all disease and petrification and you always know who targeted you with an spell, spell like ability, or other effect whether or not you succeeded the saving throw.
12th level you gain immunity to polymorph effects though you may be subject to a beneficial effect if you specifically allow it.
15th level you gain immunity to death effects.
18th level you gain immunity to mind effecting spells and if you are targeted with one, you may turn it back on it's caster causing them to lose their next turn if they fail a Wil save DC 10+HD+Int.


So, I created some new abilities based on some ideas that had been thrown into the thread. I still would like to work out a simple system for the fighter to use be it 'styles' or based off skill points or whatever. Something that the fighter can have all to himself.

I'm also scrapping the idea list in the second post to have that be the running version of the fighter's table/features. That way new posters have an idea of what they're getting in to.

NotScaryBats
2014-02-02, 10:39 PM
Here's why I think the "Weapon's Mastery" thing is a good idea:

1:) it's already a thing in the game to choose from, so you aren't making a whole bunch of new feats, maneuvers, etc

2:) it can cover a lot of bases if you let the Fighter adjust them

3:) it opens up WBL for other things

4:) maybe you'll see cool enchantments that are too niche to actually use ever, like Dessicating.

I would allow the Fighter to switch her enchantments whenever she first draws a weapon for the day or as a Swift Action Int mod times a day. That way, you can counter a lot of those classic Fighter-killer monsters, while giving that versatility that pushes things up a tier or two.

An Allip at level 4? Okay, I hit it with my Ghost Touch Greatsword. Then, a Troll comes out? Okay, got my Flaming Greatsword.

A flying enemy? Maybe I now have a Throwing Returning Greatsword. Maybe I'll draw my Bane Dragonhunter Composite Longbow.

XionUnborn01
2014-02-03, 02:16 AM
Here's why I think the "Weapon's Mastery" thing is a good idea:

1:) it's already a thing in the game to choose from, so you aren't making a whole bunch of new feats, maneuvers, etc

2:) it can cover a lot of bases if you let the Fighter adjust them

3:) it opens up WBL for other things

4:) maybe you'll see cool enchantments that are too niche to actually use ever, like Dessicating.

I would allow the Fighter to switch her enchantments whenever she first draws a weapon for the day or as a Swift Action Int mod times a day. That way, you can counter a lot of those classic Fighter-killer monsters, while giving that versatility that pushes things up a tier or two.

An Allip at level 4? Okay, I hit it with my Ghost Touch Greatsword. Then, a Troll comes out? Okay, got my Flaming Greatsword.

A flying enemy? Maybe I now have a Throwing Returning Greatsword. Maybe I'll draw my Bane Dragonhunter Composite Longbow.

I'm open to make it changeable though here's why I originally went with it being a one time choice; I want this fluffed something like a manifestation of his inner fighting spirit or something along those lines so I saw it being something he naturally unlocks not so much consciously chooses in character. I'm not against changing it I just want to hear some input before deciding.

EDIT: What if we allow them to choose different abilities for different types of weapons? So a ranged weapon would be different from a thrown weapon would be different from a one handed would be different from a two handed and so on. That way they can have a ranged weapon optimized for flying enemies and a two hander for bigger ground enemies.

jedipotter
2014-02-03, 03:20 PM
I'm sure you guys know more things missing from the class. I'm not looking to compete with tier 1 or 2, but I would like to sit somewhere in tier 3. Hopefully we can work together and create something that fulfills everyone's expectations, or at least find a compromise.

Don't forget high level abilities. Most of the list is low level ones with just improvements at higher levels.

I'd say that each level should have an attack ability, a defense ability and a miscellaneous ability.

Wardog
2014-02-03, 04:20 PM
Back in 2nd Edition, the warriors (fighter, ranger and paladin) were the only classes that could get more than one attack per round, and the fighter could get more than the other two.

Would it be worth trying to bring back some of that idea?

Maybe give the fighter some abilities or feat trees that grant extra attacks, or allow extra attacks in certain situations, or reduce/negate the penalty on itterative attacks?

Its not a massively spectacular change, and it is essentially a "more numbers" ability, which some people weren't particularly keen on, but it is a distinct "fighters do this better than anyone" thing.

XionUnborn01
2014-02-03, 11:21 PM
Don't forget high level abilities. Most of the list is low level ones with just improvements at higher levels.

I'd say that each level should have an attack ability, a defense ability and a miscellaneous ability.

I'm hoping for help with the higher level abilities from the posters here. I have a hard time gauging exactly what level an ability should be placed at. I think that three abilities per level would just be an overwhelmingly long list of abilities to keep track of.


Back in 2nd Edition, the warriors (fighter, ranger and paladin) were the only classes that could get more than one attack per round, and the fighter could get more than the other two.

Would it be worth trying to bring back some of that idea?

Maybe give the fighter some abilities or feat trees that grant extra attacks, or allow extra attacks in certain situations, or reduce/negate the penalty on itterative attacks?

Its not a massively spectacular change, and it is essentially a "more numbers" ability, which some people weren't particularly keen on, but it is a distinct "fighters do this better than anyone" thing.

At our table we don't use the common change of all iteratives being made at -5 (20/15/15/15) but I could see implementing it for only the fighter to show his capability. I could see a high level ability that allows something like a flurry of attacks, giving them like 3 full attacks in one round that they can move between each set of attacks and making them like dazed or something the next round or giving an attack penalty for a couple rounds.

XionUnborn01
2014-02-05, 01:38 AM
Added a capstone and an ability to make big groups of attacks.

XionUnborn01
2014-02-05, 11:30 PM
One thing that's a common theme is giving the fighter abilities to fight mages. here's a list of a few thoughts I had in no particular order.

All defensive casting within his reach has it's DC doubled and then later tripled.

All casting automatically provokes an attack of opportunity from a fighter.

A parry ability that works on lines/rays/ranged touch spells as well as melee and ranged attacks.

Every active spell or spell like ability on the target gives the fighter a +2 attack and damage.

Every crit has a chance to dispel the target or a spell on the target.

Doorhandle
2014-02-06, 02:20 AM
I already know how I'm going to do it too. I'll start with substituting attacks for skill checks and give the Fighter special effects on a critical hit dependent on class level. Stuff like fighting disease follows naturally from "Heal attacks." Other stuff will include self-resurrection through fighting Death. In all cases though, the idea is that, since the Fighter is best at fighting, he has the ability to turn all non-combat encounters into combat encounters and "solve" them through his martial prowess.

... THIS NEEDS A MTYHOS CLASS. RIGHT NOW. HURRY IT UP. YESSSSSSSS.


...On a related note, I think fighters should be able to interact more with spells, (such as deflecting them off their swords), and should be among the best art combat manuvers (such as doing normal damage every time they use one?)

ddude987
2014-02-06, 08:27 PM
... THIS NEEDS A MTYHOS CLASS. RIGHT NOW. HURRY IT UP. YESSSSSSSS.


...On a related note, I think fighters should be able to interact more with spells, (such as deflecting them off their swords), and should be among the best art combat manuvers (such as doing normal damage every time they use one?)

Mythos as in from magic the gathering right?

Also, I agree, give fighters spell reflection or a similar ability.

XionUnborn01
2014-02-19, 02:57 PM
A Few new ability ideas I had:

Legendary Strike: A fighter that strikes a creature with 8HD less than him with a melee attack can choose to either slay the creature outright or knock it unconscious. If he chooses to slay the creature, it gets a Fort Save DC 10+Fighter's Level+Str Modifier. If he succeeds he is Nauseated for Str modifier rounds. If the Fighter chooses to knock the creature unconscious, it must make a Wil Save DC 10+Fighter's Level+Str Modifier. If he succeeds, he is dazed for Str Modifier rounds.

This is more of a flavor ability, but also a way for a fighter to take low level goons captive if he can catch him. I'm open to an expanded use for closer HD opponents.

Prime Target: At the start of every encounter, any enemy present with Int 3 or more must make a Wisdom check DC 10+Fighter's Level. Any enemy that fails must attack the fighter to the best of it's ability, without taking obvious unsafe action. For example, a creature would not charge through a group of enemies just to get to the fighter on the other side, but it would ignore closer opponents if the fighter is reachable.

Kind of a psuedo-aggro drawing ability. I'm not sure if I'm happy with how it turned out, but hopefully you get the idea.

Spellwarp: The fighter can use attacks of opportunity to deflect any ray, target, or area effect spell targeted at the fighter. He must use one of his AoOs for the round (plus one additional AoO for every 3 spell levels?). He makes an attack roll at his highest BAB against The (caster level+spell level of?) the spell if his attack succeeds he cancels out the spell if it's an area spell, and a targeted or ray spell is dispelled unless the fighter beats the DC by 10 or more(?) in that case he may instead reflect it back at the caster, treating it as though he were the original target.

Spellwarp is not well worded right now and the numbers are pretty random. The idea is giving the fighter defense against spells, I think it works okay.

ddude987
2014-02-19, 04:35 PM
A Few new ability ideas I had:

Legendary Strike: A fighter that strikes a creature with 8HD less than him with a melee attack can choose to either slay the creature outright or knock it unconscious. If he chooses to slay the creature, it gets a Fort Save DC 10+Fighter's Level+Str Modifier. If he succeeds he is Nauseated for Str modifier rounds. If the Fighter chooses to knock the creature unconscious, it must make a Wil Save DC 10+Fighter's Level+Str Modifier. If he succeeds, he is dazed for Str Modifier rounds.

This is more of a flavor ability, but also a way for a fighter to take low level goons captive if he can catch him. I'm open to an expanded use for closer HD opponents.

Or maybe a feat to improve it to say 4HD lower.



Prime Target: At the start of every encounter, any enemy present with Int 3 or more must make a Wisdom check DC 10+Fighter's Level. Any enemy that fails must attack the fighter to the best of it's ability, without taking obvious unsafe action. For example, a creature would not charge through a group of enemies just to get to the fighter on the other side, but it would ignore closer opponents if the fighter is reachable.

Kind of a psuedo-aggro drawing ability. I'm not sure if I'm happy with how it turned out, but hopefully you get the idea.
Should be a Will save.



Spellwarp: The fighter can use attacks of opportunity to deflect any ray, target, or area effect spell targeted at the fighter. He must use one of his AoOs for the round (plus one additional AoO for every 3 spell levels?). He makes an attack roll at his highest BAB against The (caster level+spell level of?) the spell if his attack succeeds he cancels out the spell if it's an area spell, and a targeted or ray spell is dispelled unless the fighter beats the DC by 10 or more(?) in that case he may instead reflect it back at the caster, treating it as though he were the original target.

Spellwarp is not well worded right now and the numbers are pretty random. The idea is giving the fighter defense against spells, I think it works okay.

Seems pretty effective. I don't think you need the plus one addition AoO/3 levels bit. The fighter can always take combat reflexes. Or maybe make this an immediate action instead? Just a thought, as fighters don't really get to maximize action economy with swift action stuff.

XionUnborn01
2014-02-20, 01:02 AM
Or maybe a feat to improve it to say 4HD lower.

That would work well I think, let them specialize in hostage taking type stuff if they want.
What do you think of the DCs and statuses and whatnot?


Should be a Will save.

I had debated it being a Will save or not, so I'm cool with changing it if that's the consensus. What do you think of the wording? Is it clear enough?


Seems pretty effective. I don't think you need the plus one addition AoO/3 levels bit. The fighter can always take combat reflexes. Or maybe make this an immediate action instead? Just a thought, as fighters don't really get to maximize action economy with swift action stuff.

Okay, I wasn't sure if it would be too powerful without expending extra AoOs, but I'm totally fine with it being an immediate action now that you bring it up. That way it's once/round so keep it somewhat in check. Is the wording clear enough and make enough sense?

Thanks for the feedback by the way.

XionUnborn01
2014-02-20, 01:43 AM
Had a sudden streak of ideas for abilities. Here they are in no particular order and without a lot of extra thought besides what my initial musings.

Overpowering Strike: 1/enemy/encounter (or something like that). They deal D6 extra damage equal to their Int modifier(?) and all damage from this attack is treated as sonic damage. The target makes a Fort save with a DC equal to damage dealt. Failure results in the target being knocked 10ft/5 points of failure, minimum 10ft max 10ft/fighter level. The target decides which direction the target is moved as long as it is away from the fighter, and this movement does provoke AoO's.

This is just some BFC while also giving access to a rarely used energy type.

Experienced Diplomacy: +5 bonus on sense motive checks during social interaction, increasing to +10. Also counts as always actively taking 10 on spot.

A small out of combat utility ability, not really too much to say other than it needs a different name.

Gleaned Knowledge: Treated as having 1 rank in all knowledge skills they haven't invested skill points in.

This is just a way to show that a fighter by necessity must know a little about everything.

Distracting Defender: A fighter is treated is one size category larger for the purposes determining if he blocks line of sight or line of effect.

This is a way for the fighter to defend rear line PCs, getting in the way and what not.

Dowsing Sense: A fighter can use locate object a number of times per day equal to his Int modifier (minimum 1) as a spell like ability.

This is the only overtly magic ability that I think the fighter will have. There are a lot of fighter types in media that seem to have some sort of low level divination ability. I'm not super tied to this ability so if the flavor doesn't sit well, i'm okay with losing it.

Spellbreaker: As a standard action, the fighter can attack anybody with a magical barrier or magically created object (usually an abjuration or conjuration effect like mage armor or shield). They roll damage as normal but instead of the target taking damage, the spell effects instead must make Wil saves against a DC equal to the damage rolled. All spells that fail the save are dispelled, starting with the lowest level. A fighter can dispel a number of spell levels up to half of his character level each round.

So this...this is probably horribly written but the idea is any spell that makes anything 'physical' on the target is attacked and broken giving the fighter a way to wear down a caster's defenses. I'm not sure how to word this well enough to actually make it a feature.


So that's that, please let me know what you think of the abilities and I'm hoping for feedback about how to improve them or, if need be, reasons they shouldn't be implemented.

ddude987
2014-02-20, 04:32 PM
A Few new ability ideas I had:

Legendary Strike: A fighter that strikes a creature with 8HD less than him with a melee attack can choose to either slay the creature outright or knock it unconscious. If he chooses to slay the creature, it gets a Fort Save DC 10+Fighter's Level+Str Modifier. If he succeeds he is Nauseated for Str modifier rounds. If the Fighter chooses to knock the creature unconscious, it must make a Wil Save DC 10+1/2Fighter's Level+Str Modifier. If he succeeds, he is dazed for Str Modifier rounds.

This is more of a flavor ability, but also a way for a fighter to take low level goons captive if he can catch him. I'm open to an expanded use for closer HD opponents.

Prime Target: At the start of every encounter, any enemy present with Int 3 or more must make a WisdomWill Save check DC 10+1/2Fighter's Level+Str(Or another stat). Any enemy that fails must attack the fighter to the best of it's ability, without taking obvious unsafe action. For example, a creature would not charge through a group of enemies just to get to the fighter on the other side, but it would ignore closer opponents if the fighter is reachable.

Kind of a psuedo-aggro drawing ability. I'm not sure if I'm happy with how it turned out, but hopefully you get the idea.

Spellwarp: The fighter can use attacks of opportunity to deflect any ray, target, or area effect spell (IIRC, aoe don't target) targeted at the fighter. He must use one of his AoOs for the round (plus one additional AoO for every 3 spell levels?). He makes an attack roll at his highest BAB against The (caster level+spell level of?) the spell if his attack succeeds he cancels out the spell if it's an area spell, and a targeted or ray spell is dispelled unless the fighter beats the DC by 10 or more(?) in that case he may instead reflect it back at the caster, treating it as though he were the original target.

Spellwarp is not well worded right now and the numbers are pretty random. The idea is giving the fighter defense against spells, I think it works okay.

Changes noted in bold. I tried figuring out better wording for Spellwarp, but I couldn't, so I suggest just using the Spell Reflection acf from complete mage.

Benefit: You gain the supernatural ability to reflect magical attacks back on their caster. If an enemy misses with a spell or spell-like ability aimed at you, you can use an immediate action to redirect the effect back at its originator. The spell or ability attacks the original caster (who makes a new attack roll using the same modifier as the original attack).If it hits, the caster is subject to the normal effect of the spell or ability.

For example, if a 3rd-level wizard missed you with a scorching ray, you could use an immediate action to redirect the ray back to the wizard. The wizard would immediately make a new ranged attack roll (using the same modifier) against his own touch AC; if the attack succeeds, the scorching ray deals its normal damage to the wizard.

This effect applies only to spells and spell-like abilities that require an attack roll. Other spells and spell-like abilities that affect a target aren't subject to this reflection.

If a single spell or ability misses you more than once at the same time (such as scorching ray cast by a high-level caster), you can redirect each portion of the spell that missed. Using the example above, if you were missed by two of the three rays from an 11th-level wizard's scorching ray spell, you could redirect only those two rays (but not the one that hit).

You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Dex modifier (minimum 1/day).

XionUnborn01
2014-02-20, 10:02 PM
Yes! I had completely forgotten about that ACF. Since it's gained at rogue 2, scout 5, and ranger 9, What about making it a scaling ability?

2nd level they gain a +2 AC against spells and SLAs, 5th level they gain the ability to negate the spells or SLAs aimed at you but with only a 40% chance to reflect it, then 9th level you gain the full ability? And instead of Dex, what about using Con or Str to fuel daily uses?


And thanks so much for fixing the errors in the abilities. Now it's down to determining appropriate levels and I'll add them to the chart.

XionUnborn01
2014-02-22, 12:58 AM
Okay! Big update! I Added a bunch of abilities into the class and revamped some of the older ones. Let me know what you think of the changes and I of course welcome feedback.

I'm really starting to see this class shaping into the smart, strong, and quietly intimidating warrior that I think it should be.

XionUnborn01
2014-02-23, 10:04 AM
For anyone interested, I've posted this class pretty much as it stands right now. I'd love for you guys to take a look and give some feed back in -this thread- (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333027).

Thanks Guys!