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Gamebird
2007-01-26, 01:22 PM
I was planning on implementing the following for my next campaign:

Crafts and Professions
The practitioner of a Craft or Profession will count as having a related Knowledge at five ranks lower than their Craft/Profession score. If this puts them below 0 Knowledge ranks, then they are treated as well learned. This provides them only the information related to their Craft/Profession and does not allow them to make Knowledge checks – even Knowledge checks related to their area of expertise. For example, a stonemason with 8 ranks of Craft: Stonemason would be treated as having Knowledge: Architecture & Engineering ranks 1-4 as they related to working stone or using it in construction. Similarly, they would be treated as having Knowledge: Nature ranks 1-4 in regards to identifying types of rock, stone formations or locating good quality stone.

(To put this in context, I have a written out form for what a person gets as automatic knowledge of the game world, for every 5 ranks of Knowledge. These are the things they know without a roll.)

Or maybe I'll use it this campaign, not sure. I ran this by one player, who said that it should work the other way - having Knowledges, a more restricted skill, should grant you Crafts, a less restricted skill. I had done it the other way around for two reasons:
1) I know lots of well educated people who can't do field work. A history professor doesn't necessarily know his way around an archeological dig or how to construct an ancient viking longboat. An engineer doesn't necessarily know how to build a house. A theologian doesn't necessarily know how to sew raimants. A biologist doesn't necessarily know how to plow a field.

On the other hand, I don't know anyone skilled in a Craft who doesn't know something about the theoretical groundwork of their profession. A ditch digger will know how deep a hole can be before becoming unstable. Someone whose job is to remove and clean artifacts from archeological digs will know something of their history. Someone who builds houses for a living will know a bit about architecture. Someone who sews raimants will know about the garb for priests. A farmer knows something of biology.

2) Knowing a particular Craft well (5 or more ranks) seems easy enough for me to link with a single Knowledge and then restrict it within that Knowledge. However, how do I determine which Crafts are linked to a particular Knowledge? They are very broad. Is an architect skilled in building houses, shoring up mines, digging ditches, cutting stone, working wood, painting murels? My way linked one Craft with one Knowledge. Doing it the other way around links each Knowledge with potentially dozens of Crafts.


What do you think?

Golthur
2007-01-26, 01:29 PM
I do something very similar to this (it's kind of eerie, actually). I let them substitute one skill for the other in appropriate circumstances, with a -5 penalty.

So, someone with Profession (Herbalist) could make Knowledge (Nature) checks having to do with plants at a -5 penalty, or vice versa.

Gamebird
2007-01-26, 01:32 PM
But would you think it was good to do it in reverse, letting someone with Knowledge: Nature make Herbalist (and animal husbandry, farming, etc.) checks at a -5 penalty?

Golthur
2007-01-26, 01:39 PM
But would you think it was good to do it in reverse, letting someone with Knowledge: Nature make Herbalist (and animal husbandry, farming, etc.) checks at a -5 penalty?
Sure. You might increase the penalty going back the other way, to represent the general nature of the knowledge.

So,
Profession -> Knowledge (specific to general) = -5.
Knowledge -> Profession (general to specific) = -8? -10?

That might work a bit better.

oriong
2007-01-26, 01:40 PM
Honestly in almost all those cases I would simply allow them to roll against their craft skill, probably using the DCs from the knowledge skill as an example. I don't see that the example uses are so useful or helpful that they require penalizing the character, and there is no reason why a skilled craftsman's knowledge in that area shouldn't be great.

Gamebird
2007-01-26, 02:01 PM
So you're saying no penalty at all, just restrict the rolls to things that naturally fall within their Craft or Profession.

And I guess I'll extrapolate that you also mean no rolls the other way - that is, if you have Knowledge: Nature at 10 ranks, that doesn't give you any benefit in Profession: Farmer?

oriong
2007-01-26, 02:09 PM
I would say that sort of thing might be more appropraitely handled with Synergy bonuses.

But then again, it's profession and craft skills. I don't think there's any way to break the game by giving PCs easier access to them : P

Kantolin
2007-01-26, 02:09 PM
Actually, I think a -5 is about right.

That means the booky guy knows that, in theory, you do this and that and this to make an ancient-hawaiian style boat. If asked to do it, he could go do a bit more research and possibly come back with decent step-by-step materials.

But really, he's not infallible, and is unlikely to achieve the level of mastery someone who simply makes the boats for a living can do.

Although actually... 4 ranks + (say) 1 int means he has about an even shot of taking twenty and making a difficult object.

So, on the realism scale, it worksish the other way around. Maybe a slightly higher penalty.

On the more mechanical scale, I'd just let people use their Profession(Chef) skills to effect any 'Craft(Food)' checks they make directly. Profession, Craft, and Knowledge tend to get little use anyway. Making it have a penalty may be nice in some cases, but I'd really just leave it evened out. Of course, that does require some DM Fiat (or a long list) about which crafts effects which knowledge, and vice versa, but hey... perhaps on a more case-by-case?

...gee, I'm not sure if that helped anything. Oh well, I tried. ^_^

silvermesh
2007-01-26, 02:12 PM
On the other hand, I don't know anyone skilled in a Craft who doesn't know something about the theoretical groundwork of their profession. A ditch digger will know how deep a hole can be before becoming unstable. Someone whose job is to remove and clean artifacts from archeological digs will know something of their history. Someone who builds houses for a living will know a bit about architecture. Someone who sews raimants will know about the garb for priests. A farmer knows something of biology.

I don't think that knowledge of how something works and being able to make them work necessarily go hand in hand. Human beings have been building structures for various reasons for many thousands of years, but we haven't really even STARTED to understand architecture until much more recently. You can say the egyptians knew their architecture when you look at the great pyramids, but you can also see a few failed pyramids if you travel around enough, not to mention there were probably quite a few that failed so miserably that we can't even find the remnants. It's true in this day and age that someone who works in a particular field knows how it works, and has a good knowledge of his field, but this is due to the fact that knowledge is so close at hand in our modern world. I'd grant a synnergy bonus to the knowledge check if it were related to the crafters craft, but not a scaling "fake skill". a builder knows how to build, he would know the basics of putting nails in boards, building walls, roofs, etc, but he wouldn't have any architectural knowledge insofar as designing buildings, contemplating arch design, etc. these are things that the architect on site tends to, a character with quite a few knowledge ranks under his belt.

it should be noted that craft skill and profession skill are two entirely different things. Profession implies a much broader skillset, one that might include a lot more "extra knowledge", but I still wouldn't give phantom ranks in a skill, just a higher synnergy bonus.

Gamebird
2007-01-26, 04:01 PM
The reasons why this is coming up in my game currently ...

The dwarf cleric has 10 or 11 ranks in Craft: Stonemason. He wants to build a temple to his god. Does he need to hire an architect, or can he do it all by himself?

The bard has 15 ranks of Knowledge: Architecture & Engineering, but no ranks in any Craft or Profession (other than some artistic stuff like calligraphy and book-binding). He wants to play the recently acquired Lyre of Building to do things like build roads, stone walls, wooden houses and the aforementioned temple. He wants to use it to help with plowing land, scattering seed, cutting down trees, processing lumber and building bridges. I have ruled that things constructed by the lyre are constructed with the skill of the person playing, which is how the Fabricate spell works (which is the spell the lyre is made with). What level of skill does his playing create? Is it more efficient to put the lyre in the hands of someone with less Perform, but more Craft, for certain tasks?

The party wizard has a number of different Knowledges and the spell Fabricate. He has recently leveled up, acquired lands that he's settling and new skill ranks to distribute. To maximize the use of his spell, what skills should he learn?

Golthur
2007-01-26, 04:13 PM
Well, thinking about it more, Knowledge skills are generally more valuable than Profession, so I'd give Profession the edge here. Also, one Knowledge may correspond to multiple Profession skills, whereas Profession usually only corresponds to one Knowledge.

I'd go with -5 for Profession->matching Knowledge, and -10 for Knowledge->matching Profession. But, I'd certainly let both of them do it.

In RL, I often find myself in the Knowledge->Profession situation, and I can competently reason out things about specific fields based on general knowledge, with enough time. However, I do find I don't know all the special "tricks" that someone with specific training in that area does know.

Not that RL has much to do with D&D... :wink:

Gamebird
2007-01-26, 04:51 PM
In RL, I often find myself in the Knowledge->Profession situation, and I can competently reason out things about specific fields based on general knowledge, with enough time. However, I do find I don't know all the special "tricks" that someone with specific training in that area does know.

While I agree with that, the problem comes in actually implementing. Theoretical knowledge doesn't translate well to practical application. In reality, at least.

Golthur
2007-01-26, 04:57 PM
While I agree with that, the problem comes in actually implementing. Theoretical knowledge doesn't translate well to practical application. In reality, at least.
That's what the -10 penalty is for :smile:

Like I said, I can do it competently in the right fields (ones where my general knowledge is high enough to compensate for my lack of specific skill), but certainly not all.

I'd have no problem with someone with 15 ranks in a Knowledge skill being able to act as competently as a professional with 5 ranks (a 2nd level Expert, really - a level I'd use for an apprentice more than anything; certainly not a journeyman).

Matthew
2007-01-26, 06:47 PM
I would be inclined to follow a synergy pattern, rather than a penalty, so that for every five points (or whatever) of one, a +1 Bonus would be granted to the other. To me, someone with Craft does not necessarily have Knowledge, but he may have taken ranks in Knowledge to help with his Craft and vice versa.

Caelestion
2007-01-26, 06:57 PM
The bard and the cleric could simply cooperate to make an impressive cathedral, you know :)
That said, I once had a mid-level wizard who had ranks in Craft: Interior Design so that he could crank out his fabricate spell and get his stronghold on the cheap!

Fhaolan
2007-01-26, 07:17 PM
The reasons why this is coming up in my game currently ...


Most of these examples are what I would call 'related knowledge'. I'd probably use a +2 synergy bonus since that's part of the existing rules and has precident. The -5 penalty is also a good idea, but I'd use the synergy bonus instead. Of course, I'm thinking of messing with the synergy bonuses in my games, which changes things. 5 ranks = +2 synergy, 10 ranks = +4 synergy, or something like that. I just think that epic synergy of 25 ranks = +4 is too little, too late for my tastes.

Anyway, there are a few of those examples that I don't think would get synergy bonuses. The one with the lyre of building doing plowing and seeding. Architecture & Engineering I don't think would synergize with this kind of farming. But that's just my opinion.

Matthew
2007-01-26, 07:19 PM
Heh, I call "SNAP", Fhaolan!

Darkshade
2007-01-26, 08:58 PM
The reasons why this is coming up in my game currently ...

The dwarf cleric has 10 or 11 ranks in Craft: Stonemason. He wants to build a temple to his god. Does he need to hire an architect, or can he do it all by himself?

The bard has 15 ranks of Knowledge: Architecture & Engineering, but no ranks in any Craft or Profession (other than some artistic stuff like calligraphy and book-binding). He wants to play the recently acquired Lyre of Building to do things like build roads, stone walls, wooden houses and the aforementioned temple. He wants to use it to help with plowing land, scattering seed, cutting down trees, processing lumber and building bridges. I have ruled that things constructed by the lyre are constructed with the skill of the person playing, which is how the Fabricate spell works (which is the spell the lyre is made with). What level of skill does his playing create? Is it more efficient to put the lyre in the hands of someone with less Perform, but more Craft, for certain tasks?

The party wizard has a number of different Knowledges and the spell Fabricate. He has recently leveled up, acquired lands that he's settling and new skill ranks to distribute. To maximize the use of his spell, what skills should he learn?


mwuahahaha I love the lyre of building, it has so many many uses, i used it so effectively in fact that i managed to get it banned from the campaign world lol
anyway the lyre in 3.5 just has a sort of automatic profession skill, the player need not have any profession, technically he doesnt need knowledge architecture either, but if he does have it then he would be able to do incredible things with the lyre, knowledge architecture and engineering lets you draw up a diagram of what your building either a written one or a mental one, and if you play the lyre its magic will create that diagram, only like with real buildings and such. The lyre knows how to do the work, you just tell it what you want.

Fhaolan
2007-01-26, 10:37 PM
Heh, I call "SNAP", Fhaolan!

*grin* I conceed the snap! :)

I take too long typing stuff out. I have to stop being so distracted by my job while I'm reading this forum at work. ;)