Two or four legs dragon?

[Zen]

I'm having a major dilema about how to do dragons in my homebrew world.

I always considered four legged dragons as true dragons and Dragos with two legs as wyvens.

However after listening to the explanations about the appearance of dragons in Skyrim and in the Song of ice and fire. They do make more sense with two legs.

So what is your guys opinion about it?

[Erberor]

There are merits to both sides of it. I personally like four legs for the largest, most powerful breeds of dragon, whereas two legs tends to give an air of agility and speed. It all depends on what you want the dragons to look like, and not all of them have to be the same.

[Knaight]

It depends on the source material. There are a lot of different fictional depictions of dragons, wyverns, etc - particularly dragons. You've got highly intelligent flying and swimming serpents connected to the ocean, you've got miserable lizards spitting acid, so on and so forth. With that taken into account, the whole "true dragon" concept doesn't really make sense as a universal, and it comes down to a by setting-as-played-by-group preference.

[almightycoma]

I'm a four legs or no legs kinda guy myself. Two legs makes them feel to much like scaly birds to me. I like'em lizardy(four legs) or snakey(none). May also depend on environment. I like legless ones for underground/water areas, and four legged for all others

[Zaydos]

I'm typically a 4 legs and wings person myself, but I dabble in wyverns, linnorms (snakes with front claws), wingless, and pure snake myself. Dragons come in a wide variety of shapes and varieties in legend and see no reason to limit myself to one. In a single world I'll do different things based upon where I see dragons (wyverns show up if I want them to have evolved from real world animals, for example).

Also Skyrim dragons aren't scaly birds they're scaly bats how they crawl around on their front limb and hip structure, typically wyverns are presented as fully bipedal on the land.

I would like to hear this explanation for why Skyrim and SoIaF went with a bat body design over the traditional dragon.

[Allnightmask]

Monster Hunter had cemented the idea of wyverns having two legs in my mind. But, the psuedo-wyverns were an interesting change up I didn't dislike. I still find myself going off those designations in my mind, with wyverns and anything super interesting is a dragon.:smallbiggrin:

[BWR]

4 legs, 2 wings. That's the only way I can accept my dragons. Everything else just seem wrong, though Easter dragons with 4 legs but no wings work. I know there is a lot of variation in literature and that's fine, but ever since I saw Jeff Easly's Red Dragon, dragons needed six limbs.

[Morph Bark]

I'm a four legs or no legs kinda guy myself. Two legs makes them feel to much like scaly birds to me. I like'em lizardy(four legs) or snakey(none). May also depend on environment. I like legless ones for underground/water areas, and four legged for all others

Well, considering that from an evolutionary point of view dragons would've likely evolved from dinosaurs, 'scaly birds', while inaccurate, does point out some relationship. :smallwink:

Though dragons in depictions are much more like theropods than ornithopods, iirc.

[Zombimode]

They do make more sense with two legs.

Uhm, why would you say that?


I like the 6-limbed dragon much better that the 4-limbed. Having "hand"-like appendages increases their image as creatures of power and dominance.
4-limbed dragons, that is 2 legs and 2 wings, appear much more animalistic.

Its a style difference. I like my dragon as intelligent and powerful creature of myth instead of just dangerous animals.

[cobaltstarfire]

I generally prefer 4 legged with 2 wings, as 2 legged with 2 wings more often than not just looks really awkward and doesn't fit my internal image of dragons as creatures that definitely are not awkward. For me if a dragon has 4 limbs, then that means that it lacks wings.

Seeing as whenever dragons are involved it typically involves a place that is not earth and often involves magic, I don't really subscribe to the ideal that they must be tetrapods.

But if you want to look for biological reasons, look no further than Pern, where the typical body plan of everything natural to Pern has 6 limbs. (or in the case of tunnel snakes, 2....). Thus allowing for the engineered dragons to be your typical 4 legs with 2 wings set up.

But that's just me, dragons are fictional critters with as many different body plans and such as there are combinations of animal parts, so it could be anything really and I probably won't pass judgement.

[Amechra]

People, please.

4 wings, 2 legs, or GTFO.

More seriously... am I going to have to post my dragon building system? (It can also be used to make Necromorphs, for that matter.)

[Tragak]

I used to think that 2-legged, 4-limbed "wyvern" dragons looked less intimidating than 4-legged, 6-limbed "true" dragons…

And then I took a "Desolation of Smaug" to the face :smallbiggrin:

[Zombimode]

I used to think that 2-legged, 4-limbed "wyvern" dragons looked less intimidating than 4-legged, 6-limbed "true" dragons…

And then I took a "Desolation of Smaug" to the face :smallbiggrin:

Sure, Smaug in the movie is intimidating... but now imagine if he had 6 limbs instead of 4 *blowout*

[Zen]

Thanks for the opinion of you guys.

In the end I decided to insert everything.

In my new setting the Ouroboros are primordial serpents and the common ancestor for Dragons (four legs and two wings) who are smart. Drakes that share the common ancestors with dragons but are less intelligent and more animalistic like the "Song of ice and fire" and "dark souls" ones (kind of like monkeys compared to us in humans) and wyvens are feral and violent animals and look like skyrim dragons with two legs and wings that also work as forelegs. Also there will be lake serpents that look like asian dragons.

This way I can do everything. Thank you guys again.

[inuyasha]

I was reading in a 3rd party book which brought up an interesting thing on this topic, what if metallic dragons could walk the earth like giants, up on two legs, but the evil chromatic ones were forced to walk like animals, on four legs?

[D-naras]

I was reading in a 3rd party book which brought up an interesting thing on this topic, what if metallic dragons could walk the earth like giants, up on two legs, but the evil chromatic ones were forced to walk like animals, on four legs?

What would be the point in that? From a philosophical standpoint, animals can't be evil, but humanoids can. I like my dragons to look like Breath of Fire 3 dragons. That is, anything from winged, tailed humanoids to giant floating snakes, to huge turtle like beings, to tyrannosaures with wings, to glowing super humans.

[YossarianLives]

Personally I've always preferred four legs. But it really comes down to the DMs preference.

[Morph Bark]

What would be the point in that? From a philosophical standpoint, animals can't be evil, but humanoids can.

That highly depends on which philosophical theory you adhere to. Some theories have everything as inherently good, others as inherently evil, others have animals as amoral creatures. The only thing they tend to share is the idea that humans can choose, force themselves against their inherent nautre, if there is one. Dragons, in the case they are intelligent, would probably stick to that same idea.

[Knaight]

I was reading in a 3rd party book which brought up an interesting thing on this topic, what if metallic dragons could walk the earth like giants, up on two legs, but the evil chromatic ones were forced to walk like animals, on four legs?

Going from two legs to close to humanoid seems like a really odd visual - largely because humanoids are basically quadrupeds that got twisted at a skeletal level. Take a look at birds, for example - you've got two legs, but the spine is at a very different angle, you've got a very different mass distribution, and the whole thing is much better suited to having wings.

[toapat]

certain aspects of each type of dragon provide different strengths,

6 Limb dragons (arms, legs, wings) are more lordly creatures, better with magic

4 Limb Dragons (wings, legs) come in 2 varieties, Batlike (typical/skyrim) and Bird like (Song of Fire and Ice/A game of Thrones HBO) are "more" realistic, but oftentimes better predators then the kind depicted in the Monster Manual.

either way you should moreso think of how you want the dragons to influence the world then just pick up on visuals. if you want them to be common predators, design them in a way that makes them easy to envision how they hunt, want them to be world ruling tyrants, make them look majestic and terrible

[Debihuman]

I think dragon with 4 legs have more gravitas than those with 2.

Debby

[Lappy9001]

I used to feel that four-legged 'true dragons' held a sense of power that two-legged ones did not. Then came Skyrim and dinosaur class I took, so now trying to imagine the muscle and bone structure of a four-legged winged dragon just makes my head hurt.

But I do agree that it's probably a good idea to just use them all, because linnorms are awesome :smallcool:

[Balyano]

Why not have all.

legless sea serpents - and make them the biggest

wingless two legged lindworms - maybe you can ride them

two legged winged wyverns

maybe two legged four winged wyverns - with the smaller front wings aiding in maneuverability

four legged no winged dragons - chinese perhaps or built like postosuchus or have both kinds

four legged two winged dragons

and maybe a two winged no limbed serpent about the size of a monkey, let the tail be prehensile, hang upside down from trees

[Amechra]

Here are some body-types that I brainstormed for a something:

NOTE: In the setting that I developed these for, Dragons look like long-necked six-limbed geckos who varied between horse sized and house sized and have heads closer to that of a komodo dragon. They also were hyper-intelligent and lived on the Moon, and can fly through SPAAAAACE. So, maybe a grain of salt?

Fire Dragons' second pair of legs have shifted forward and formed the classic batlike wings. So, kinda like classic dragons, except they breath thermite.

Earth Dragons have no wings, but their front legs have adapted to be more like mole claws; excellent for digging. They also have aligator scutes in place of the finer scales of other dragon types.

Air Dragons' front two pairs of legs have adapted into wings, with the first pair supplying lift and the second pair helping with stearing. Their wings are more birdlike, if birds had hollow, poisonous feathers.

Water Dragons don't have distinct legs anymore; their legs have fused into massive "water wings", like a manta ray. They also have long, whip-like tails with a venemous stinger on the end.

Wood Dragons look like the "base" dragon, except they have plants growing all over their bodies, due to basically sweating fertilizer.

Metal Dragons look like Earth Dragons, except they are naturally magnetic, and so accrete vicious metal barbs and blades all over.
----------------------------------------------
But yeah, body plan wise, you can have fun with dragons. I do like having 6-limbs as much as the next guy, but then you have to think... do additional heads count as limbs? How about additional tails?

A neat idea for a Dragon: four legs, but 3 long, thin, prehensile tails.

[ShadowFireLance]

People, please.

4 wings, 2 legs, or GTFO.

More seriously... am I going to have to post my dragon building system? (It can also be used to make Necromorphs, for that matter.)

Dragon Necromorphs.

Post. Now.

[Amechra]

It has to be translated from my notes (yes, translated; part of the damn things are in Esperanto, for some reason.)

[Tragak]

It has to be translated from my notes (yes, translated; part of the damn things are in Esperanto, for some reason.) :smallconfused: …What.

[ShadowFireLance]

It has to be translated from my notes (yes, translated; part of the damn things are in Esperanto, for some reason.)

Why are you wasting valuable time posting instead of translating?

[Amechra]

I dunno how it happened; it is something that happens, though.

As for why I'm posting instead of translating... I'm doing both!

[sktarq]

I'm much more a two legged Drake type myself. I used to four legs = dragon anything else = dragonkin. but over time I changed. Mostly because of the number of times I was able to hunt and/or cripple because of this structure. Also issues with force calculations and lift came up during an aeronautical engineering course...In short now days I look at a four legged dragon and mostly see engineering and physics problems. That said there is a great image in the Rules Cylcopedia of a red dragon with four legs breathing fire onto a fighter w/ shield (I think in the equipment section) which works very well and to me is still the baseline image from which I modify to create all dragons mentally-however the forelegs are significantly smaller than the hind legs so that may have a lot to do with it.

[The Oni]

It depends on what you're trying to evoke. Four-legged dragons tend to imply enormous power and earthly domination. Two-legged wyvernlikes invoke speed, fury and predatory impulse. Coiling Eastern style dragons invoke ancient power and patient dignity.

[Tzim]

My first exposure to dragons in film was as a child with the movie, "Dragonslayer". The dragon in the film was of the two-legged bat-like variety and that image, through the rose-colored glasses of nostalgia, really stuck with me. I'd have to say the bat-like variety is probably my favorite.

[VoxRationis]

I find that the two-legged kind seems more animalistic, largely due to how it's more like something that could actually come about (not once in the history of our world has a six-limbed vertebrate evolved; exceptions are due to teratogen exposure rather than genetic change). The four limbs gives it a regal tone, like a proud cat, rather than an ungainly bat or an enormous bird. I can see a four-legged dragon moving methodically or lazily, with all its power and arrogance behind it, more readily than I can see a two-legged dragon doing so. Furthermore, a large flying creature wouldn't be able to handle very much excess weight; realistically, if it did start with six limbs, it wouldn't keep them for long.
That said, I like four-legged dragons. I would actually posit that the idea of the dragon type as in D&D, where two-legged and four-legged closely related, is polyphyletic; the difficulty of evolving a third pair of limbs suggests that the six-limbed dragon is actually most closely related to griffons, hippogriffs, and pegasi, whose similarities to horses, lions, and eagles are due to convergent evolution.