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Teapot Salty
2014-02-09, 10:45 PM
Hey guys. Me and a couple friends have been toying with the idea of a dragon campaign. The three of us all plan to be chromatic, with one being black, one blue and myself torn between either red or green. We will all be young (between wyrmling and young adult anyway) And I was wondering what you guys thought of it, which of the two dragons I should be, and also ideas as to what the ambition for the campaign could possibly be. (seriously, wasn't the only time a bunch of chromes decided to be together was the dragonlance?)

Red Fel
2014-02-09, 10:58 PM
If you're playing traditional Chromatics, that means you're all going to be Evil.

Keep this thought in mind: Evil campaigns are hard.

How mature are your players? How willing are they to put aside the mentality of "It's what my character would do" in favor of table cohesion? How able are they to avoid being selfish, backstabbing jerks for fun and profit? Tell me, have you ever played Munchkin?

If your players are immature, or capable of exceptional degrees of backstabbery, an Evil campaign will be extremely difficult and trying. A Dragon campaign will be a slaughter. And not the fun kind.

All that aside...

Let's assume for the moment that your friends are mature, capable roleplayers who care about table cohesion and everyone having a good time.

First, Dragons are naturally territorial creatures. You'd need a pretty good reason to be adventuring together. Perhaps a divine mandate from Tiamat. Or perhaps Dragons are endangered, and only by banding together can you survive. Point is, you're not going to get along well unless you have to. So keep that in mind.

Second, what's your individual goal? Dragons tend to be fairly nuanced in their play; some like simply to conquer, terrify, and accumulate wealth and power; others have actual, specific ambitions, such as acquiring particular things or pursuing specific aims. You'd want a goal that meshes, but does not conflict, with those of your colleagues.

To be honest, despite my natural gift for Evil, I can't think of a reason why such different creatures would work together. One is a beast of darkness, who lives to corrupt and befoul. Another is a demon of the skies, a free spirit who takes pleasure in the slow death of those ensnared by its illusions. Another is a savage forest predator, stalking the undergrowth before crushing its prey beneath the branches. And one just wants to set the world on fire. I can't imagine how they would have aligning goals.

As an aside, I would go with Green over Red. I happen to like Lawful Evil, and I think its abilities - particularly the water-related ones - would synergize with Black and Blue better.

Mr. Mask
2014-02-09, 11:24 PM
Depends on how you want to play it. Do you want to play it DnD style, wandering around with some skill checks, followed by arena fights?

Teapot Salty
2014-02-09, 11:27 PM
If you're playing traditional Chromatics, that means you're all going to be Evil.

Keep this thought in mind: Evil campaigns are hard.

How mature are your players? How willing are they to put aside the mentality of "It's what my character would do" in favor of table cohesion? How able are they to avoid being selfish, backstabbing jerks for fun and profit? Tell me, have you ever played Munchkin?

If your players are immature, or capable of exceptional degrees of backstabbery, an Evil campaign will be extremely difficult and trying. A Dragon campaign will be a slaughter. And not the fun kind.

All that aside...

Let's assume for the moment that your friends are mature, capable roleplayers who care about table cohesion and everyone having a good time.

First, Dragons are naturally territorial creatures. You'd need a pretty good reason to be adventuring together. Perhaps a divine mandate from Tiamat. Or perhaps Dragons are endangered, and only by banding together can you survive. Point is, you're not going to get along well unless you have to. So keep that in mind.

Second, what's your individual goal? Dragons tend to be fairly nuanced in their play; some like simply to conquer, terrify, and accumulate wealth and power; others have actual, specific ambitions, such as acquiring particular things or pursuing specific aims. You'd want a goal that meshes, but does not conflict, with those of your colleagues.

To be honest, despite my natural gift for Evil, I can't think of a reason why such different creatures would work together. One is a beast of darkness, who lives to corrupt and befoul. Another is a demon of the skies, a free spirit who takes pleasure in the slow death of those ensnared by its illusions. Another is a savage forest predator, stalking the undergrowth before crushing its prey beneath the branches. And one just wants to set the world on fire. I can't imagine how they would have aligning goals.

As an aside, I would go with Green over Red. I happen to like Lawful Evil, and I think its abilities - particularly the water-related ones - would synergize with Black and Blue better.
That's really helpful, thank you. All the people who plan to play are mature enough not to "kill all the things 'cause I evil", and they roleplay properly. And your right, red would be a lot harder to do because of it's chaotic nature. I like the idea of conquest, but it feels to cliche, the idea of dragons being endangered though. You've given me lots to think about.

Rhynn
2014-02-09, 11:43 PM
You should probably answer a pretty basic question first...

What does the campaign consist of doing?

For instance, Council of Wyrms never really seemed to provide a very good answer for that, and playing it was a pain as a result.

Teapot Salty
2014-02-10, 12:26 AM
You should probably answer a pretty basic question first...

What does the campaign consist of doing?
Honestly, it's so new in its baby phase I have no idea, I'm not sure if it's even going to happen, it's just a cool idea.

Tragak
2014-02-10, 10:46 AM
And your right, red would be a lot harder to do because of it's chaotic nature. Not necessarily. The Joker might be the poster child of Chaotic Evil, and Lex Luthor Lawful Evil, but the Joker and Lex Luthor are better with each other than they are with others of their own world-views.

Blue and Green Dragons value formality, while Black, White, and Red Dragons value informality.

Chaotic doesn't have to mean "crazy," "random," or "thoughtless," it could just mean that personal loyalty trumps impersonal loyalty.

More specifically:

Black Dragons are Chaotics who tend to care primarily about violence for the sake of treasure (Evil Haley)

Blue Dragons are Lawfuls who tend to care primarily about violence for the sake of noble stature (Evil Roy/Durkon)

Red and Green Dragons tend to care about violence for it's own sake, with Chaotic Reds focusing on the thrill of the hunt (Belkar) and Lawful Greens focusing on the honor of duels and warfare (Evil(er) Miko)

Teapot Salty
2014-02-10, 11:28 AM
Not necessarily. The Joker might be the poster child of Chaotic Evil, and Lex Luthor Lawful Evil, but the Joker and Lex Luthor are better with each other than they are with others of their own world-views.

Blue and Green Dragons value formality, while Black, White, and Red Dragons value informality.

Chaotic doesn't have to mean "crazy," "random," or "thoughtless," it could just mean that personal loyalty trumps impersonal loyalty.

More specifically:

Black Dragons are Chaotics who tend to care primarily about violence for the sake of treasure (Evil Haley)

Blue Dragons are Lawfuls who tend to care primarily about violence for the sake of noble stature (Evil Roy/Durkon)

Red and Green Dragons tend to care about violence for it's own sake, with Chaotic Reds focusing on the thrill of the hunt (Belkar) and Lawful Greens focusing on the honor of duels and warfare (Evil(er) Miko)
Good point. Although the campaign will probably either be: the dragons are going extinct, which wouldn't be that bad for a red, or the kingdom/village didn't give us tribute, let's kill em, which I don't think a red would do as well as a green. (Although I suppose an excuse to burn down a town would be nice for it, but still.)

Tragak
2014-02-10, 11:45 AM
the campaign will probably either be: the dragons are going extinct, which wouldn't be that bad for a red Are ALL dragons going extinct, or just the Chromatics?

If there is a war between Tiamat and Bahamut, and Tiamat is losing, then perhaps your party might be trying to make enough of an impression that the Arch-Devils and the Demon Princes will help them against Bahamut?


or the kingdom/village didn't give us tribute, let's kill em, which I don't think a red would do as well as a green. (Although I suppose an excuse to burn down a town would be nice for it, but still.) Why not both? :smalltongue:

Blue: "Either you give Black the treasure he wants, or he and I will allow Red/Green to kill all of you, just as soon as he comes back from the last crater that told us No."

If you go with Red, then you would probably want to kill the city before they can raise their army; if you go with Green, then you would probably want to let the city raise an army and then show that you can kill them anyway.

Red Fel
2014-02-10, 11:46 AM
My advice would be two-fold:

1. Remember how to Evil. Evil, as I mentioned (and as you say your friends are aware) does not mean murder for kicks and giggles. It doesn't mean stabbing friends in the back on a whim. Evil can be respectful. Evil can be friendly. Evil can know honor, and restraint, and even brotherhood. What matters is that while you may be warm towards your friends, you will gladly sacrifice, eat, and torture the feeble, fetid masses that crawl like insects over the surface of a planet that is rightfully yours, but soon they'll learn, they'll learn what fear and respect- oh, sorry. I was there again. The point is, you can play these characters heroically, as long as you remember that they're irredeemably evil monsters with no regard for human life.

2. Remember how to Dragon. There's actually a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=329364) on this specific topic, with a lot of good advice. Remember that Dragons are not humans, in any respect. Morally, ethically, intellectually, physically, they are alien in every sense. Remember that Dragons don't think like humans do, and don't think of them like humans. Think of your Dragons as what they are - massive, long-lived predators, primal forces of nature and darkness, tooth and claw and wing and flame made flesh, born to hold dominion over all the mortal races. They need not constantly engage their enemies, for time is their friend; yet should engagement be merited, it can be ended with swift brutality, or the slow game of cat-and-mouse that reminds these vermin just how infinitesimally small and insignificant they- and there I was again. Right. You get the point. Dragons are primal, primordial beings, incarnate forces of the darkest parts of nature. Don't think of them like people with scales and wings; think of them like storms made into flesh, earthquakes given life, typhoons given will and thought.

And enjoy.

Grim Portent
2014-02-10, 12:01 PM
Campaign suggestion: The leader of the most powerful ruler in the land made an alliance with an ancient and powerful metallic dragon to bring about the end of the rampaging chromatic breeds. Armies of knights, dragon riders, archers and adventurers waged a decades long war to drive out the evil dragons.

A group of dragons of each chromatic breed banded together to safeguard the last clutch of eggs they each had. They raised these eggs in secrecy in the forgotten corners of the world to avoid discovery. To ensure the alliance they shared their eggs among one another to be raised as part of the same nests.

The players are the grown dragons of one of these clutches. After the death of their 'mother' at the hands of a metallic dragon they decided to disregard her warnings and go out into the world. Upon learning of the near-genocide that has shattered their kind they determine to get revenge, one metallic dragon at a time.

Teapot Salty
2014-02-10, 12:32 PM
Are ALL dragons going extinct, or just the Chromatics?

If there is a war between Tiamat and Bahamut, and Tiamat is losing, then perhaps your party might be trying to make enough of an impression that the Arch-Devils and the Demon Princes will help them against Bahamut?

Why not both? :smalltongue:

Blue: "Either you give Black the treasure he wants, or he and I will allow Red/Green to kill all of you, just as soon as he comes back from the last crater that told us No."

If you go with Red, then you would probably want to kill the city before they can raise their army; if you go with Green, then you would probably want to let the city raise an army and then show that you can kill them anyway.
Dude, both, awesome.

Teapot Salty
2014-02-10, 12:34 PM
My advice would be two-fold:

1. Remember how to Evil. Evil, as I mentioned (and as you say your friends are aware) does not mean murder for kicks and giggles. It doesn't mean stabbing friends in the back on a whim. Evil can be respectful. Evil can be friendly. Evil can know honor, and restraint, and even brotherhood. What matters is that while you may be warm towards your friends, you will gladly sacrifice, eat, and torture the feeble, fetid masses that crawl like insects over the surface of a planet that is rightfully yours, but soon they'll learn, they'll learn what fear and respect- oh, sorry. I was there again. The point is, you can play these characters heroically, as long as you remember that they're irredeemably evil monsters with no regard for human life.

2. Remember how to Dragon. There's actually a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=329364) on this specific topic, with a lot of good advice. Remember that Dragons are not humans, in any respect. Morally, ethically, intellectually, physically, they are alien in every sense. Remember that Dragons don't think like humans do, and don't think of them like humans. Think of your Dragons as what they are - massive, long-lived predators, primal forces of nature and darkness, tooth and claw and wing and flame made flesh, born to hold dominion over all the mortal races. They need not constantly engage their enemies, for time is their friend; yet should engagement be merited, it can be ended with swift brutality, or the slow game of cat-and-mouse that reminds these vermin just how infinitesimally small and insignificant they- and there I was again. Right. You get the point. Dragons are primal, primordial beings, incarnate forces of the darkest parts of nature. Don't think of them like people with scales and wings; think of them like storms made into flesh, earthquakes given life, typhoons given will and thought.

And enjoy.
Are you a poet? dude, that was beautiful.

Teapot Salty
2014-02-10, 12:36 PM
Campaign suggestion: The leader of the most powerful ruler in the land made an alliance with an ancient and powerful metallic dragon to bring about the end of the rampaging chromatic breeds. Armies of knights, dragon riders, archers and adventurers waged a decades long war to drive out the evil dragons.

A group of dragons of each chromatic breed banded together to safeguard the last clutch of eggs they each had. They raised these eggs in secrecy in the forgotten corners of the world to avoid discovery. To ensure the alliance they shared their eggs among one another to be raised as part of the same nests.

The players are the grown dragons of one of these clutches. After the death of their 'mother' at the hands of a metallic dragon they decided to disregard her warnings and go out into the world. Upon learning of the near-genocide that has shattered their kind they determine to get revenge, one metallic dragon at a time.
That sounds like a tasty, meaty campaign. I'll definitely bring that up to the guys.

Red Fel
2014-02-10, 01:18 PM
Are you a poet? dude, that was beautiful.

A poet? Hardly. Unless you consider Evil to be poetry. In that case, I am akin to the Bard himself, weaving an epic edda of blood and terror, plying the threads of plot through the weave of verse to create a nightmarish tapestry of word and rhythm, a horrific cacophonous tempest of lyric and rhyme, the sort of-

... I was doing it again, wasn't I?

No, I'm not a poet. Just an evilologist.

Evilology is a thing now.

Also, to keep this post relevant to the topic: Dragons.

Tragak
2014-02-10, 08:13 PM
Campaign suggestion: The leader of the most powerful ruler in the land made an alliance with an ancient and powerful metallic dragon to bring about the end of the rampaging chromatic breeds. Armies of knights, dragon riders, archers and adventurers waged a decades long war to drive out the evil dragons.

A group of dragons of each chromatic breed banded together to safeguard the last clutch of eggs they each had. They raised these eggs in secrecy in the forgotten corners of the world to avoid discovery. To ensure the alliance they shared their eggs among one another to be raised as part of the same nests.

The players are the grown dragons of one of these clutches. After the death of their 'mother' at the hands of a metallic dragon they decided to disregard her warnings and go out into the world. Upon learning of the near-genocide that has shattered their kind they determine to get revenge, one metallic dragon at a time. That is amazing. I hadn't thought of nearly that much detail in my version.

On that note, since it already sounds like we're suggesting a "heroic" inversion of the Genocide Backfire trope - much like Redcloak and the Paladins - maybe you could go all the way with that?

1) the ancient dragon and the ruler of the land each hear of a prophecy that 3 Chromatic dragons, each from a different species, will discover a powerful ritual that Tiamat can use to kill Bahamut

2) they form an alliance to wipe out all Chromatic Dragons before that can happen, but - of course - leave survivors; survivors who are now furious, terrified, and motivated enough to find the ritual that the extermination was supposed to prevent in the first place

3) the party believe themselves to be the Chosen Ones of the prophecy, and search out the ritual so that their goddess can bring their races back from the brink

4) even if the party turn out not to be the Chosen Ones that they believed themselves to be, they could still be determined to find and protect the real Ones

Grim Portent
2014-02-10, 08:52 PM
Pleased to see people like my suggestion. Personally from a player perspective if I was playing in my own suggestion I'd be a red dragon with a mutual annihilation perspective of the whole thing. My primary goal would be to bring each metallic dragon to it's knees and watch it beg like a mortal for my mercy. I would then craft items from their bodies and souls to further my hunt for bloody revenge and not stop in my quest until the dragon who started the whole thing is dead and devoured, the kings allied with him clutched in my talons and their world in ashes in my wake.

Appropriate art:
http://wallpaperuser.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/dragon-with-fire-breath-wallpaper-1024x640.jpg

Teapot Salty
2014-02-10, 10:33 PM
Pleased to see people like my suggestion. Personally from a player perspective if I was playing in my own suggestion I'd be a red dragon with a mutual annihilation perspective of the whole thing. My primary goal would be to bring each metallic dragon to it's knees and watch it beg like a mortal for my mercy. I would then craft items from their bodies and souls to further my hunt for bloody revenge and not stop in my quest until the dragon who started the whole thing is dead and devoured, the kings allied with him clutched in my talons and their world in ashes in my wake.

Appropriate art:
http://wallpaperuser.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/dragon-with-fire-breath-wallpaper-1024x640.jpg
How many poets are on this forum? I'm not sure whether to laugh, cry or run like hell.

Red Fel
2014-02-10, 10:41 PM
How many poets are on this forum? I'm not sure whether to laugh, cry or run like hell.

Why choose?

Teapot Salty
2014-02-10, 10:44 PM
Why choose? Maybe I won't.

The Oni
2014-02-11, 05:34 AM
But yes, as has been mentioned previously, dragons aren't "like people, only bigger and scalier." It isn't sufficient to *merely* genocide your enemies. You must break them, so that they understand their foolishness with perfect clarity. They must learn the price of crossing you. And THEN, assuming you can't make any further use of them, THEN you are free to crush them into the dust they ultimately are worth.

Your can revel in their human weakness. Terrify them such that they crush and trample eachother to get away from you. So that they sacrifice thousands in an attempt to strike a critical blow against you. Force them into a siege and watch them eat each other. Decieve them. Give them hope only to crush it. Play the simple-minded lizard destroyer only to crush them with superior tactics, or play the tidy general only to join the fray when they think they've broken your line.

When they understand that fighting you is akin to mounting a charge against the sea or the storm itself, the weak-hearted will break and follow you as living gods. They will become your church, a shrine to their own annihilation. And then, only then, have you won.

Grim Portent
2014-02-11, 08:59 AM
I feel that it's best to consider the dragons in terms of their racial tendencies:

Blue dragons are the most subtle, I could easily see them playing the long game and infiltrating their enemies. Making them rely on them over a long period of time, subtly sabotaging their efforts and blaming it on others. Once the enemy is in suitable disarray a simple spell or burst of breath could serve as the decapitating blow that triggers a civil war. There are few things more pleasant than to watch a foe tear himself apart from within.

Black dragons are the cruelest, the most readily inclined to terror tactics and horror. They are the kind I could see rallying hosts of evil to their banner and pillaging the countryside. Demoralizing those who come to stop them with the desecrated bodies of the men, women and children slain in the rampages, the once pleasant villages rendered into acid scarred ruins and corpse riddled swamp. An enemy who has given up, not just on victory but on happiness, life and hope, that is an enemy truly defeated.

Red, ah the red, arrogant, proud and wrathful. The only true way to defeat a foe is to strike fast and strike last. Kill his warriors, his allies and his servants. Start with the weakest, flit in like a hawk, the shadow of your wings the only warning, the ashes left behind the only sign of your presence. Break, burn and belittle your foe. Tear asunder his walls and leave his world wreathed in flames.

White dragons, poor short sided children that they are still have potential. Short tempered, driven by a need to devour and kill, predators in the purest sense. Though not as cunning as the others each is still a mighty being, capable of destroying armies and rallying barbarous hordes to their call. Castles plundered, cities in ruin and thousands consumed to feed the wrath of their slayer and his unceasing hunger.

Greens, stealth and shadows, very cloak and dagger. Assassinate, decapitate. Strike fast and unseen from the shadows. Hit and run, lure your enemies, trap and trick them. Kill them inch by painful inch. You are better than them, so why grant them a quick end?

Red Fel
2014-02-11, 09:53 AM
I feel that it's best to consider the dragons in terms of their racial tendencies:

This, I think, is an exceptionally good point. It's not just that dragons are completely different from humans; they're also substantially different from each other. They're not simply related species - they are markedly distinct races with different mindsets and tendencies.

I think Grim highlights it very nicely: Blues are deceivers, Blacks are corruptors, Reds are destroyers, Greens are predators, and Whites are failures.

And yet, that also causes them to clash. For example, the Red may want to reshape the terrain around him, turn it into a blasted hellscape, as a warning to those who might approach. The Green would take offense to this; the forests are his home and his weapon. The Black has a natural tendency to ruin everything he touches (see his Corrupt Water ability). The Blue, while he lives in the desert, dwells in the cool caves below, relishing the fact that he controls the underground sources of water (and, by extension, life) for the pitiful weaklings above; the Blue would not appreciate the Black coming in to ruin his fun, while the Black would be annoyed with the Blue's slow, torturous methods.

And they'd all pick on the White, which is probably why he secludes himself in the coldest mountains. Alone, and unloved.

Tragak
2014-02-11, 10:03 AM
There is certainly that. Teapot, are you and the group also looking for ideas on the group dynamic?

Grim Portent
2014-02-11, 10:06 AM
I could see them working together, they each have strengths that con compliment the others weaknesses, and together they become a force far more powerful than they are individually.

The Red wants to hunt and burn, to do so safely he needs a homebase to retreat to. The Green wants to ambush, why not do ambush those who come looking for the Red? The Black wants to taint, why not taint the now defenseless remains of the villages attacked by Red and then ambushed by Green? Blue can infiltrate the mortals and influence them to attack the others piecemeal, emphasis on meal. White can... Uh... I guess he can join Red on his rampages, they have much the same style in the long run and without ice and snow Whites advantages aren't really applicable.

Marnath
2014-02-11, 01:37 PM
What about Brown dragons, from Faerun? Flightless but they're pretty nasty opponents too, and they live in the same sorts of areas the Blues do.

Mnemnosyne
2014-02-11, 05:11 PM
One of my biggest questions on how to handle a dragon campaign is managing the passage of time. Part of what makes a dragon campaign seem cool to me is observing the little dragons growing to be great wyrms, but that takes over a thousand years. So it presents a curious problem in the sense of handling the campaign world and actions over such a long stretch of time, one that I haven't quite figured out how to solve.

Rhynn
2014-02-11, 05:17 PM
So it presents a curious problem in the sense of handling the campaign world and actions over such a long stretch of time, one that I haven't quite figured out how to solve.

I don't recall Council of Wyrms having a decent answer here... I think you were just supposed to do time-skips where you abstract out the PC dragons' activities, or where they sleep for ages.

sktarq
2014-02-11, 06:00 PM
I guess one of the first things to think about is how the social order your characters fit into is going to work.
Do your dragons talk to other dragons, perhaps get quests from them in order to get advice, magical loot, etc? Or do they mostly interact with non-dragons? perhaps basically as prey and targets of manipulation. If you are playing the endangered dragon motif the last would have to dominate but that may well cull some very interesting dragon to dragon RP opportunities.

Also group cohesion. This can be very tough in evil parties to do ad hoc. One of the key elements of evil is the willingness to place your goals over the well being of others. However with a bit of planning and maturity things can work out smoothly. On of the easiest is a shared goal larger than themselves. With dragons this goal could well be VERY long term too which adds a nice touch. The founding of a temple to Tiamat perhaps, either bringing down or converting a nation to dragon/Tiamat worship. The later Including scouting said nation, perhaps isolating certain stabilizing influences, founding cults as lots of adventure hooks and each could have their own reasons for wanting to bring it down-from Pride, to revenge, a particular crown jewel, to the fact that it would rhyme with their name once their conquered it and they like that notion. Also Temple or target nation placement could aid bringing together odd colours of dragon. Semi-deserts that bleed into forests either like the California Sierras leading into the Nevada Desert for example-Toss in a slow moving river and presto.

Also the Draconicon would be a significant resource. For mentality, dragonic sociability etc. Also Dragon PrC's that may well be useful.