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Fax Celestis
2007-01-29, 09:16 PM
The Paladin
Requirements
Alignment: Lawful good.

Specifications
HD: d10

Class Skills (2 + Int, x4 at 1st level): Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion), Profession, Ride, Sense Motive

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Spells: Beginning at 1st level, a Paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the Paladin spell list. A Paladin must choose and prepare his spells in advance.

To prepare or cast a spell, a Paladin must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Paladin’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Paladin’s Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a Paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Paladin. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. When Table: The Paladin indicates that the Paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level The Paladin does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a cleric does.

A Paladin prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though he cannot lose a prepared spell to spontaneously cast a cure spell in its place. A Paladin may prepare and cast any spell on the Paladin spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Aura of Good (Ex): The power of a Paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to his Paladin level.

Lay on Hands (Su): A Paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (his own or those of others) by touch. Each day he can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to his Paladin level × his Charisma bonus. A Paladin may choose to divide his healing among multiple recipients, and he doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action. The caster level for Lay on Hands (if required) is equal to the Paladin's level.

Alternatively, a Paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The Paladin decides how many of his daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.

Mantle of Faith (Su): A Paladin receives gifts from his patron deity according to his faith. Starting at second level, and again at fourth level and every three levels thereafter, the Paladin receives blessings from his patron deity in exchange for a stricter code of conduct. In this way, the higher level a Paladin becomes, the stricter his vows are and the more trust his deity has in him. A Paladin can select any mantle of faith from the list following the class table upon leveling up. The effects of Mantles of Faith generated by multiple Paladins stack with other Mantles of different types.

Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a Paladin gains a bonus equal to his Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

Smite Evil (Su): Starting at 3rd level, once per day, a Paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. He adds his Charisma bonus (if any) to his attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per Paladin level. If the Paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.

At 5th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the Paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, to a maximum of seven times per day at 20th level.

Special Mount (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a Paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve his in his crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium Paladin) or a warpony (for a Small Paladin). See the PHB for how to handle a Paladin's mount.

Once per day, as a full-round action, a Paladin may magically call his mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the Paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the Paladin and remains for 2 hours per Paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the Paladin may release a particular mount from service.

Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect.

Should the Paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The Paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until he gains a Paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the Paladin takes a -1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.

Divine Transformation (Su): Through dedicated and exceptional service to your deity, you have gained their personal favor, which manifests as follows. At twentieth level, you gain the ability to sprout great, translucent and intangible wings at will. These grant you the ability to fly at a speed of 60 feet (good maneuverability). The wings may be white, feathered, flaming, shimmering or of any other traits that represent the nature of your deity. In addition, you gain damage reduction 10/silver and your type changes to Outsider (Native, Good). Sprouting wings is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, but you cannot fly on the same turn in which you sprout them.

Alternatively, the Paladin's mount may sprout the wings, with the same statistics.

Paladin Progression
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4
1st | +1 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Lay on Hands, Aura of Good| 0 | - | - | - | - | -
2nd | +2 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Divine Grace, Mantle of Faith | 0 | - | - | - | -
3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Smite Evil 1/day | 1 | - | - | - | -
4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Mantle of Faith | 1 | - | - | - | -
5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Smite Evil 2/day, Mount | 1 | 0 | - | - | -
6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +2 | +5 | - | 2 | 0 | - | - | -
7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Mantle of Faith | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +6 | Smite Evil 3/day | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +3 | +6 | - | 2 | 1 | 0 | - | -
10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Mantle of Faith | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | -
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Smite Evil 4/day | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +4 | +8 | - | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Mantle of Faith | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | -
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +9 | Smite Evil 5/day | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | -
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +5 | +9 | - | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Mantle of Faith | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Smite Evil 6/day | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +11 | - | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Mantle of Faith | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +12 | Smite Evil 7/day, Divine Transformation | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2[/table]

Mantles of Faith
Abstinence
The Paladin has foresworn the use of drugs, alcohol, and other similar substances. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly imbibes any drug, alcohol, or similar.

The Paladin receives immunity to various effects according to his level. At first level, he is immune to non-magical poison. At fifth level, he becomes immune to non-magical disease and receives a +1 bonus to saves to resist mind-affecting effects. At tenth level, he becomes immune to magical poison, and his bonus to resist mind-affecting effects increases to +2. At fifteenth level, he becomes immune to magical disease, and his bonus to resist mind-affecting effects increases to +3. At twentieth level, he becomes completely immune to harmful mind-affecting effects.

In addition, once per day for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier, the Paladin can provide to all allies within 5' + 5'/3 Paladin levels a sacred bonus to saves to resist mind-affecting effects equal to his Charisma modifier.

Charity
The Paladin has sworn to tithe at least 20% of all his earnings (including treasure) to charity and the church. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he fails to tithe that amount.

The Paladin receives a sacred bonus to Diplomacy checks equal to 1/2 his class level (rounded up). In addition, once per day for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier, the Paladin can use charm person (as the spell). At seventh level, this changes to charm monster. At fourteenth level, the Paladin can either perform a charm monster or a mass charm person, and can use this ability twice per day.

Conviction
The Paladin is certain of himself and his actions, so much so that his unswerving faith augments his martial prowess. The Paladin loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever questions his faith, attacks another member of his faith, or smites a non-evil (or non-chaotic, with the Justice mantle) creature.

The Paladin's attacks are considered bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At tenth level, all his attacks are also considered magical, lawful, and silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At fifteenth level, all his attacks are also considered adamantine, mithral, and holy for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At twentieth level, the Paladin ignores the first ten points of his foe's damage reduction.

Diligence
The Paladin has sworn to examine his opponents and his surroundings thoroughly. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he does not attempt every legitimate action before giving up.

The Paladin can detect evil (as the spell) at will. At fifth level, the Paladin gains Darkvision 30'. At tenth level, the Paladin gains Low-Light Vision. At fifteenth level, the Paladin gains Scent 30'. At twentieth level, the Paladin gains Blindsight 15'.

Grace
The Paladin has sworn to protect his allies, with his life should the need arise. He loses all aspects of this mantle if an ally of his within 60' falls in combat before the Paladin falls.

The Paladin, and all allies within 30', gain a sacred bonus to Reflex saves equal to 1/4 the Paladin's class level. At fifth level, the Paladin and all allies within 5' + 5'/3 class levels gain the benefits of Evasion while in light or no armor. At tenth level, the Paladin gains the benefits of Evasion in medium armor. At fifteenth level, the Paladin gains the benefits of Improved Evasion while in light or no armor. At twentieth level, the Paladin gains the benefits of Improved Evasion while in medium armor.

Honesty
The Paladin has foresworn lying, for any reason. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly makes a Bluff check for any reason other than to feint in combat, if he ever uses the Forgery skill, or if he ever lies.

The Paladin receives a sacred bonus to Sense Motive checks equal to 1/2 his class level (rounded up). In addition, once per day for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier, the Paladin can see invisibility (as the spell). At seventh level, this changes to invisibility purge. At fourteenth level, the Paladin can either perform an invisibility purge or can see as if affected by true seeing, and can use this ability twice per day.

Honor
The Paladin holds himself to honorable standards of combat set down by his god. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever feints, trips, or gains the benefits of flanking in combat.

The Paladin receives a sacred bonus to melee attack rolls equal to his Charisma modifier.

Humility
The Paladin understands that, to be truly great, one must remain humble. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever boasts or exaggerates about his accomplishments or uses social status to influence another.

The Paladin, and all allies within 30', gain a sacred bonus to Will saves equal to 1/4 the Paladin's class level. At fifth level, the Paladin also receives a sacred bonus to AC equal to his Charisma modifier.

Justice
The Paladin is an agent of justice and must uphold the law to its fullest extent. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly breaks a law or associates with lawbreakers.

The Paladin can detect chaos (as the spell) at will. At fifth level, the Paladin's smite ability can be used against chaotic creatures to equal effect. If used against a creature who is both chaotic and evil, the smite's damage is doubled and automatically confirms a threatened critical.

Mercy
The Paladin has sworn an oath to never willingly harm non-evil creatures. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever knowingly kills a non-evil creature or performs a Coup de Grace attack.

The Paladin can deal non-lethal damage with any weapon without receiving a -4 penalty. In addition, whenever he deals non-lethal damage to a target, he deals +1d6 extra non-lethal damage for each three Paladin levels and can deal non-lethal damage with a Smite Evil attack.

Patience
The Paladin has sworn an oath to never rush in without thinking and to always consider all courses of action. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever acts without considering the consequences or attacks in the first round of combat.

The Paladin only needs four hours of sleep a night. At seventh level, the Paladin does not need to eat more than one meal a week. At fourteenth level, the Paladin no longer needs to breathe. At twentieth level, the Paladin no longer needs to eat or sleep.

Peace
The Paladin holds himself to a peaceful standard in accordance with his god's wishes. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly enters into combat without trying to prevent it, or if he witnesses conflict without trying to prevent it.

The Paladin receives as a spell-like ability, usable a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier (with a caster level equal to his class level), the hold person spell. At fifth level, he may expend two uses to use hold monster. At tenth level, he may expend three uses to use mass hold person. At fifteenth level, he may expend four uses to use mass hold monster. If a creature perishes while held by any form of this spell, the Paladin loses all aspects of this mantle.

In addition, creatures around the Paladin in a 5' radius (plus 5' for every 3 Paladin levels) are affected as if by a calm emotions spell.

Perseverance
A Paladin must never falter and never sway on his chosen path. He holds himself to a resolute and stoic standard in accordance with his god's wishes. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly stands down from a fight he knows he can win, or if he gives up in the face of adversity.

All allies within a 5' radius (plus 5' for every 3 Paladin levels) gain DR 1/-, plus 1/- for every five class levels of the Paladin. In addition, once per day for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier, a Paladin can surround himself and his allies with an aura of magical resilience. This aura grants his allies SR equal to his class level plus his Charisma modifier.

Piety
A Paladin must pray to his deity, and those with the Piety Mantle of Faith must pray exceptionally. He holds himself to a standard where he must pray at least five times per day, for at least an hour per prayer session. He loses all aspects of his mantle if he goes one day without praying five times, with at least one hour of time between periods of prayer.

The Paladin receives a sacred bonus to all saving throws equal to 1/4 his class level. In addition, all allies within 5' + 5'/3 Paladin levels receive a sacred bonus to saving throws equal to the Paladin's Charisma modifier.

Prudence
A Paladin is aware of the strength of both his allies and his foes, and never places his allies into a situation where they could be greatly harmed or even slain. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly allows an ally to put themselves in great danger without first attempting to find a less dangerous solution.

The Paladin--and all allies within 5' + 5'/2 Paladin levels--receives an insight bonus to Armor Class equal to his Wisdom modifier.

Purity
A Paladin must stand against the forces of evil without becoming evil himself. He holds himself to a strict standard: do no evil, lest ye become like one of them. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly commits an evil act or associates with evil or undead creatures.

The Paladin gains the ability to turn undead as a Cleric of four levels lower than his own level does. If this would result in an effective Cleric level of 0 or less, the Paladin cannot turn undead.

Redemption
A Paladin must redeem others who do not adhere to faith as vehemently as the Paladin. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he does not forgive those who err in the name of good.

The Paladin's Lay on Hands ability gains new functions. It can remove disease (as the spell) by spending 15 points of healing, remove curse (as the spell) by spending 20 points, and create an atonement effect (as the spell) by spending 40 points. The atonement effect cannot affect the Paladin, only other creatures.

Temperance
A Paladin must display self-restraint in all their actions. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he attacks in the first round of combat.

The Paladin and all allies within 5' + 5'/2 Paladin levels receive a sacred bonus to ranged attack rolls equal to his Charisma modifier.

Valor
A Paladin must be regal and valorous to combat the forces of evil. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he attempts to coerce or influence anyone through Intimidation.

The Paladin becomes immune to fear effects. In addition, all allies within a 5' radius + 5'/2 Paladin levels receive a sacred bonus to saving throws against fear effects equal to 1/2 the Paladin's class level.

Zeal
A Paladin must always accept an honorable challenge. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever does not accept an honorable challenge or if he smites a non-evil (or non-chaotic, with the Justice mantle) creature.

The Paladin gains +1d6 sacred damage when performing smite attacks. This improves to +2d6 at 5th level, +3d6 at 10th level, +4d6 at 15th level, and +5d6 at 20th level.

Regaining Mantles of Faith
A Paladin who ceases to be lawful good or who violates the codes of conduct set down in his Mantles of Faith loses all Paladin spells and the abilities granted by the affected Mantles. He may not progress any farther in levels as a Paladin. He regains his abilities and advancement potential if he atones for his violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Kalir
2007-01-29, 09:23 PM
Pretty neat, I must admit. It'd be nice to see paladins taking the Humility vow.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-29, 09:24 PM
Hmmm. Maybe give them the option to change of their codes of conduct after atoning, if that was the cause of their fall?

Indon
2007-01-29, 09:39 PM
I like. I _really_ like. It'd be interesting to see a level 2 Paladin who could turn undead as a level -1 cleric, though. Does that mean they get to rebuke until they hit level 4? You could just tack "This code of conduct has no effect until the Paladin reaches level 5", though, to clear up any possible misconception.

I think that's the only mechanical flaw I could see in the whole thing. I presume that repeat-requirements for some codes are intentional, since some virtues are just approximate to each other.

averagejoe
2007-01-29, 09:45 PM
This is a really good idea. The only thing I don't like that's worth mentioning is that the 20th level ability almost completely obseletes the special mount. At least, as a mount.

mikeejimbo
2007-01-29, 09:55 PM
This is a really good idea. The only thing I don't like that's worth mentioning is that the 20th level ability almost completely obseletes the special mount. At least, as a mount.

The mount should get wings too! That way, it can fight along side you, even in the air.

Abardam
2007-01-29, 10:04 PM
Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a Paladin gains a bonus equal to his Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

Alternatively, a Paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The Paladin decides how many of his daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.

Mistype?

Also, I like the mantles. But how would Grace work, say in a surprise round? Say an enemy wizard pops up all of a sudden and uses Power Word Kill on someone. The paladin still loses Grace and all his spells?

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-29, 10:05 PM
That. Would be. HOT. Have a mount that's not only a mount, but a fighting buddy? Maybe even give a new list for mounts: Pegasus instead of Heavy Warhorse for example. Also, I like the work on the new mantles Fax. I'm so copy/pasting this into Word and using first chance I get. Permission?

(EDIT) GAH! ninja's. Was referring to the mount thing. Also, I agree; grace is very difficult to keep. The party scout's going to get caught eventually.

averagejoe
2007-01-29, 10:06 PM
The mount should get wings too! That way, it can fight along side you, even in the air.

It could gain the half celestial template!

mikeejimbo
2007-01-29, 10:07 PM
That. Would be. HOT. Have a mount that's not only a mount, but a fighting buddy? Maybe even give a new list for mounts: Pegasus instead of Heavy Warhorse for example. Also, I like the work on the new mantles Fax. I'm so copy/pasting this into Word and using first chance I get. Permission?

(EDIT) GAH! ninja's. Was referring to the mount thing. Also, I agree; grace is very difficult to keep. The party scout's going to get caught eventually.


It could gain the half celestial template!

Yes and yes, I concur readily!

Gralamin
2007-01-29, 10:13 PM
That. Would be. HOT. Have a mount that's not only a mount, but a fighting buddy? Maybe even give a new list for mounts: Pegasus instead of Heavy Warhorse for example. Also, I like the work on the new mantles Fax. I'm so copy/pasting this into Word and using first chance I get. Permission?

(EDIT) GAH! ninja's. Was referring to the mount thing. Also, I agree; grace is very difficult to keep. The party scout's going to get caught eventually.

Grace only is in effect if their in combat together I believe.

edit: Now Honor on the other hand, I'd say is for npcs ONLY

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-29, 10:20 PM
Bah. Just get a gryphon for a mount and save all the hubbub about the wings making the mount obsolete. :smallbiggrin:

Abardam
2007-01-29, 10:27 PM
Wait, what if the paladin were in an army? He loses Grace if anyone on his side dies?

mikeejimbo
2007-01-29, 10:34 PM
Wait, what if the paladin were in an army? He loses Grace if anyone on his side dies?

Then he doesn't take Grace. At least, I wouldn't, in the circumstances.

cferejohn
2007-01-29, 10:39 PM
I like this alot. Really I like anything that gives the more linear classes some choice as they level up.

Is a Paladin obligated to take a mantle of faith every three levels or can he decide not to?

Also, just so I'm clear, when a paladin takes a new mantle, he immediately gets all of the powers for that mantle up to his level? So a paladin who takes abstinence at 19th level, say, would be immune to magical disease/poison and have the +2 bonus to mind-effecting spells?

cferejohn
2007-01-29, 10:47 PM
Also, yeah, some of the mantles seem way either to keep than others. Unless Grace is going to give the Paladin an ability to to assume damage from others, he's going to lose this one all the time. Abstinence, on the other hand, isn't going to come up unless you've added some drugs in your campaign that give ability bonuses or something. I mean, I can't remember the last time I had a character drink something for any reason other than flavor.

Maybe the disadvantage Grace should have a range (i.e. an ally within 60' (or whatever)). Also, what counts as "falling." Being reduced to < 0 HP? Power word-sleep? Getting turned to stone? Lich's paralyzing touch? Hold person?

geez3r
2007-01-29, 10:48 PM
I really like this. Aside from the few tweaks that should be made that are mentioned above, this is done very well.

Abardam
2007-01-29, 10:51 PM
Grace would probably be very useful in a war, if it were not for that lose condition. I mean, Improved Evasion in medium armor? Take that, blasters!

mikeejimbo
2007-01-29, 11:02 PM
Also, yeah, some of the mantles seem way either to keep than others. Unless Grace is going to give the Paladin an ability to to assume damage from others, he's going to lose this one all the time. Abstinence, on the other hand, isn't going to come up unless you've added some drugs in your campaign that give ability bonuses or something. I mean, I can't remember the last time I had a character drink something for any reason other than flavor.

From the wording, it seems to include potions.

Indon
2007-01-29, 11:12 PM
Grace would probably be taken alongside things like Diligence and Temperance, and strikes me as a good setup for a low-combat campaign.

The customizability of this kind of Paladin is immense. You could easily make paladin oriented around killing big, scary demons or undead, or just as easily make one perfectly at home with rooting out wealthy criminals and taking them in for trial.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-01-29, 11:23 PM
I like this. *Yoink*

Shazzbaa
2007-01-29, 11:44 PM
It's kind of like writing your own paladin's code. Nifty. I really like the idea.

As I was reading I was thinking that some of the Mantles are things you wouldn't want to take without the rest of the PCs' consent. ^^; But then... paladins are kind of like that already, and this gives loads of options. I really don't have any problem with some Mantles being easier to keep than others -- it makes sense that some paladins are going to be more zealous, and are going to get more awesome stuff for it.

You'd really have to have a DM you get along with though. Some of the Mantles' requirements strike me as being fluffy enough to potentially become disputed.

TheOOB
2007-01-30, 12:03 AM
I like the class, thought I think you need to add an atonement for each mantle. For instance if you take the abstinence mantle, and in a moment of weakness drink alchol, you could gain it back by fasting for a long period of time. Or you could regain the humility mantle back by living as a beggar for a month, something like that. I don't like the idea of perminate ability penalties for roleplaying mistakes.

Fizban
2007-01-30, 01:18 AM
I would assume that the paladin can regain his mantles with the atonement spell just like other paladin powers? Anyway, my only suggestion is a table with short descriptions of the mantles, cause I'm lazy like that.

TheOOB
2007-01-30, 01:32 AM
I've always hated the atonement spell. Atonement is a personal thing between you and the god(ess) you worship. Just as you lose the the ability via roleplay it should be regained via roleplay.

cferejohn
2007-01-30, 06:15 AM
This could be expanded even further into Paladins with other alignments (or at least other Lawful alignments). Some of the things on here (like abstinence) aren't "good" per se, but are definitely Lawful. You could allow different mantles depending on the deity, somewhat like Cleric domains (except you get to keep picking them).

Leush
2007-01-30, 07:28 AM
So how does patience interact with a ring od sustenance?

Roderick_BR
2007-01-30, 08:37 AM
My only beefs are that most combat oriented classes usually don't have 0 level spells. I think it doesn't suit their flavor.
And the cap ability looks nice, but I still can't see a high level paladin gaining wings. I can't see them as armored angel stuff. Turning into a native outside is pretty good alreadt, seeing as he didn't get anything before. He could get something else instead of wings.
Overall, a nice take on him, without turning the paladin in a fighting machine like that variation on the WotC boards did.

Morty
2007-01-30, 08:51 AM
Hm. I like it, except of wings. More flexibility is something paladin desperately needs. But wings just don't fit.

Triaxx
2007-01-30, 09:25 AM
I mean, I can't remember the last time I had a character drink something for any reason other than flavor.

I can actually. I was running a game all the way back in 2nd Edition, and we were running the Baldur's Gate campaign on paper. After getting lost doing other things, we arrived in Nashkel, and no one knew what to do next, so we ended up in the tavern. The Paladin decided against drinking, but the fighters started buying drinks for information.

cferejohn
2007-01-30, 09:34 AM
I can actually. I was running a game all the way back in 2nd Edition, and we were running the Baldur's Gate campaign on paper. After getting lost doing other things, we arrived in Nashkel, and no one knew what to do next, so we ended up in the tavern. The Paladin decided against drinking, but the fighters started buying drinks for information.

Well, OK, I probably *could* remember it, but there's nothing that stops the Paladin from buying drinks for other people. "3 beers bartender, and a water for myself."

Of course one of the points of alcohol in medieval times was that is was much safer to drink than water, but then again, he does get immunities, so that works out.

Telonius
2007-01-30, 10:10 AM
I really like the flavor, quite a bit more than the current Paladin.

Regarding the "Honor" mantle... you might need to tighten up the wording there. Does simply being in a flanking position violate the vow? Can he attack a flanked enemy if he forgoes the -2 bonus? (And for that matter, can somebody forgo the -2 flanking bonus?) What if a rogue with Greater Invisibility is flanking the same enemy with him, but he doesn't realize it?

I'd suggest...
The Paladin holds himself to honorable standards of combat set down by his god. He loses all aspects of this mantle if, during the course of combat, he ever feints, trips, or knowingly attacks an enemy he flanks.

Abardam
2007-01-30, 10:18 AM
Can an invisible creature flank?

Telonius
2007-01-30, 10:23 AM
I would think so. Rogues with Greater Invisibility would get sneak attack dice if they hit something they're flanking.

Flanking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#flanking)rules:


When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.
When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.
Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.
Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.


Threatened Squares (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm#threatenedSquares)


You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.
Reach Weapons

Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#reachWeapons) threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more.


And, Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility)rules. Nothing in there about not threatening. So yes, I'd say that invisible creatures both threaten and provide flanking bonuses.

Golthur
2007-01-30, 10:51 AM
First, I have to say, I love the flavour. Very well done.


I like the class, thought I think you need to add an atonement for each mantle. For instance if you take the abstinence mantle, and in a moment of weakness drink alchol, you could gain it back by fasting for a long period of time. Or you could regain the humility mantle back by living as a beggar for a month, something like that. I don't like the idea of perminate ability penalties for roleplaying mistakes.

I agree. I also agree with your assessment about the atonement spell. I always hated the magic "zap away your crime" thing. You want to atone with your god? Well, then do something that shows it!


I really like the flavor, quite a bit more than the current Paladin.

Regarding the "Honor" mantle... you might need to tighten up the wording there. Does simply being in a flanking position violate the vow? Can he attack a flanked enemy if he forgoes the -2 bonus? (And for that matter, can somebody forgo the -2 flanking bonus?) What if a rogue with Greater Invisibility is flanking the same enemy with him, but he doesn't realize it?

I recall somewhere in some other honour-based fighter class (CW, maybe?) that had a similar restriction that they were able to forgo the +2 from flanking and it's good.

Abardam
2007-01-30, 11:02 AM
Ah, I see. I would think though that the flanking bonus comes from the difficulty of fighting two creatures, one on both sides of you.

Besides, the rogue would get the sneak attack dice anyway, right?

Golthur
2007-01-30, 11:14 AM
Ah, I see. I would think though that the flanking bonus comes from the difficulty of fighting two creatures, one on both sides of you.

Besides, the rogue would get the sneak attack dice anyway, right?

In a normal flank, yes this would be the case, but the paladin would (honourably) not be taking advantage of the opponent's lapse in defenses.

Letting the rogue get sneak-attack dice would be touchy on the honour side, though.

Abardam
2007-01-30, 11:45 AM
Uh, I was replying to Telonius.

Kesnit
2007-01-30, 12:00 PM
Overall, I like it. (I love Paladins.) Just a few comments, though...



Should the Paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The Paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until he gains a Paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the Paladin takes a -1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.

Does the Paladin still take the -1 if (s)he levels up in those 30 days?



Divine Transformation (Su): Through dedicated and exceptional service to your deity, you have gained their personal favor, which manifests as follows. At twentieth level, you gain the ability to sprout great, translucent and intangible wings at will. These grant you the ability to fly at a speed of 60 feet (good maneuverability). The wings may be white, feathered, flaming, shimmering or of any other traits that represent the nature of your deity. In addition, you gain damage reduction 10/silver and your type changes to Outsider (Native, Good). Sprouting wings is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, but you cannot fly on the same turn in which you sprout them.

Unlike most posters, I like the wings. :smallsmile: It's a good capstone for someone who dedicated their life to being good.



Conviction
The Paladin is certain of himself and his actions, so much so that his unswerving faith augments his martial prowess. The Paladin loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever questions his faith, attacks another member of his faith, or smites a non-evil (or non-chaotic, with the Justice mantle) creature.


Even if he smites them unknowingly? Unless the Paladin wants to take time in the middle of a battle to find out if the bandit leader is Neutral or Chaotic/Evil, he risks smiting wrongly a lot.



Diligence
The Paladin has sworn to examine his opponents and his surroundings thoroughly. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he does not attempt every legitimate action before giving up.

Who determines what is "every legitimate?" (I know the DM, but how does the PC know if they really have done everything possible?) This seems very much a judgement call, esp if the PC is inexperienced or just not thinking.



Grace
The Paladin has sworn to protect his allies, with his life should the need arise. He loses all aspects of this mantle if an ally of his falls in combat before the Paladin falls.

As others have brought up, what about Power Word Kill? Or if the party is attacked by a large number of monsters and the Paladin cannot physically reach a party member to defend them without leaving someone else at risk? Or cannot physically reach them at all, such as being grappled or held?



Honor
The Paladin holds himself to honorable standards of combat set down by his god. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever feints, trips, or gains the benefits of flanking in combat.

Can the party rogue still flank and get sneak attack dice?



Mercy
The Paladin has sworn an oath to never willingly harm non-evil creatures. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever knowingly kills a non-evil creature or performs a Coup de Grace attack.

The Paladin can deal non-lethal damage with any weapon without receiving a -4 penalty. In addition, whenever he deals non-lethal damage to a target, he deals +1d6 extra non-lethal damage for each three Paladin levels and can deal non-lethal damage with a Smite Evil attack.

Why deal non-lethal to a Smite Evil?




Piety
A Paladin must pray to his deity, and those with the Piety Mantle of Faith must pray exceptionally. He holds himself to a standard where he must pray at least five times per day, for at least an hour per prayer session. He loses all aspects of his mantle if he goes one day without praying five times, with at least one hour of time between periods of prayer.

The theme is great, but I don't know how well it would RP. The player could just say they did their prayers. Or if the DM insists the prayers be more than words, it causes a lot of downtime for the others.



Zeal
A Paladin must always accept an honorable challenge. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever does not accept an honorable challenge or if he smites a non-evil (or non-chaotic, with the Justice mantle) creature.

Is there an exception for suicidal challenges?

Sampi
2007-01-30, 12:10 PM
Great idea, but I concur with Kesnit's criticisms. Also, I would like to see a Chastity mantle. It is, after all, a classical knight vow.

Jibar
2007-01-30, 12:19 PM
edit: Now Honor on the other hand, I'd say is for npcs ONLY

See, I was dubious about Honor.
You lose it if you flank somebody? So that rogue sneaks up behinds your enemy, or a fighter accidently takes a five foot step back, and you lose it?
That needs a bit of rethinking.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-30, 12:35 PM
Hmmm. Maybe give them the option to change of their codes of conduct after atoning, if that was the cause of their fall?

Maybe. Let me think about the mechanic.


I like. I _really_ like. It'd be interesting to see a level 2 Paladin who could turn undead as a level -1 cleric, though. Does that mean they get to rebuke until they hit level 4? You could just tack "This code of conduct has no effect until the Paladin reaches level 5", though, to clear up any possible misconception.

I think that's the only mechanical flaw I could see in the whole thing. I presume that repeat-requirements for some codes are intentional, since some virtues are just approximate to each other.

That's a good point. I'll add that addendum.


The mount should get wings too! That way, it can fight along side you, even in the air.

Yes. Yes it should.


Mistype?

Also, I like the mantles. But how would Grace work, say in a surprise round? Say an enemy wizard pops up all of a sudden and uses Power Word Kill on someone. The paladin still loses Grace and all his spells?

Error indeed. Stupid copy-paste. I'll add in a radius on Grace.


Is a Paladin obligated to take a mantle of faith every three levels or can he decide not to?

Also, just so I'm clear, when a paladin takes a new mantle, he immediately gets all of the powers for that mantle up to his level? So a paladin who takes abstinence at 19th level, say, would be immune to magical disease/poison and have the +2 bonus to mind-effecting spells?

He has to, and he receives all benefits he qualifies for.


From the wording, it seems to include potions.

That was the intention.


It's kind of like writing your own paladin's code. Nifty. I really like the idea.

As I was reading I was thinking that some of the Mantles are things you wouldn't want to take without the rest of the PCs' consent. ^^; But then... paladins are kind of like that already, and this gives loads of options. I really don't have any problem with some Mantles being easier to keep than others -- it makes sense that some paladins are going to be more zealous, and are going to get more awesome stuff for it.

You'd really have to have a DM you get along with though. Some of the Mantles' requirements strike me as being fluffy enough to potentially become disputed.

Paladins are supposed to be difficult people because of a strict and rigorous code of conduct.


I like the class, thought I think you need to add an atonement for each mantle. For instance if you take the abstinence mantle, and in a moment of weakness drink alchol, you could gain it back by fasting for a long period of time. Or you could regain the humility mantle back by living as a beggar for a month, something like that. I don't like the idea of perminate ability penalties for roleplaying mistakes.

I do believe I'll do that.


This could be expanded even further into Paladins with other alignments (or at least other Lawful alignments). Some of the things on here (like abstinence) aren't "good" per se, but are definitely Lawful. You could allow different mantles depending on the deity, somewhat like Cleric domains (except you get to keep picking them).

Yes, but that's a lot of work I don't want to do without help. ;)


So how does patience interact with a ring od sustenance?

//shrug. Patience works as normal; the Ring of Sustenance means you don't have to eat. Pretty simple.


My only beefs are that most combat oriented classes usually don't have 0 level spells. I think it doesn't suit their flavor.

I always thought that having to wait for spellcasting for four levels was dumb.


I recall somewhere in some other honour-based fighter class (CW, maybe?) that had a similar restriction that they were able to forgo the +2 from flanking and it's good.

Correct. You don't have to claim the +2 bonus from flanking.


Does the Paladin still take the -1 if (s)he levels up in those 30 days?
Yes.

Even if he smites them unknowingly? Unless the Paladin wants to take time in the middle of a battle to find out if the bandit leader is Neutral or Chaotic/Evil, he risks smiting wrongly a lot.
Yes.

Who determines what is "every legitimate?" (I know the DM, but how does the PC know if they really have done everything possible?) This seems very much a judgement call, esp if the PC is inexperienced or just not thinking.
Exactly.

As others have brought up, what about Power Word Kill? Or if the party is attacked by a large number of monsters and the Paladin cannot physically reach a party member to defend them without leaving someone else at risk? Or cannot physically reach them at all, such as being grappled or held?
A radius on Grace should help.

Can the party rogue still flank and get sneak attack dice?
As long as the Paladin doesn't get the +2, that's fine. But it may violate other parts of his code, like Peace.

Why deal non-lethal to a Smite Evil?
To take them back alive, of course.

The theme is great, but I don't know how well it would RP. The player could just say they did their prayers. Or if the DM insists the prayers be more than words, it causes a lot of downtime for the others.
The assumption is that someone would roleplay it, even if its as simple as the Paladin disappearing for five hours each day.

Is there an exception for suicidal challenges?
I would file that under "dishonorable".

TheThan
2007-01-30, 02:21 PM
Oooh I like this, I think I'll yoink it if you don't mind...

*yoink*

elliott20
2007-01-30, 03:55 PM
hmm... I like this paladin. It's got enough options that you can really deck this guy out to fix the precise paladin feel you want.

I'll be reading it more closely later on.

Rierdrex
2007-01-30, 04:16 PM
Nice work, this is exactly what the paladin should have been. If you want help for the mantles for different deities and alignements, I'd be willing to help. If you're interested by my help, could you PM me so we can talk about it? Thanks, and nice work!

Abd al-Azrad
2007-01-30, 04:21 PM
That's a really neat take on the Paladin. At first glance, the idea of giving the paladin both (a) specific, combat-related restrictions chosen by the player and (b) specific, linked, rewards for those restrictions really sits well with making the class run more smoothly, especially in a combat-heavy game. I'm impressed.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-30, 05:08 PM
That's a really neat take on the Paladin. At first glance, the idea of giving the paladin both (a) specific, combat-related restrictions chosen by the player and (b) specific, linked, rewards for those restrictions really sits well with making the class run more smoothly, especially in a combat-heavy game. I'm impressed.

Abd! You've been missed! Welcome back!

In other news, thanks.

Anyone interested in helping me adapt this to paladins of differing alignments should PM me.

Geneticist
2007-01-30, 08:04 PM
One thing that I've been thinking is that this would actually work fairly well, fluff-wise, with a Monk. You could disallow VoP and have Monks gain access to these. But as for the actual class, I like it, especially the wings at 20th and the 0 level spells. Very "divine avenger" kind of feel.

blackout
2007-01-30, 08:19 PM
You forgot the Fanaticism Mantle. +17 attack bonus. :)

endersdouble
2007-01-31, 02:47 AM
Pah. TL;DR--not in the usual 13-year-old-with-ADD-meaning; it's just that class is way too long, way too complicated, and because of that, not worth using or balancing. For a Paladin Done Right, see page 8 of Tome of Battle. If you want, impose a bit more of RP restrictions (I personally wouldn't bother) and give some sort of ability as a reward--I'd suggest good Ref/Will saves (Divine Graces gives way too much MAD.) There. You're done.

TheOOB
2007-01-31, 02:54 AM
You discredit the class but you don't really explain your motive for doing so. The class isn't all that complex, certainly not more so then a monk or druid, and the crusader doesn't capture the flavor of the paladin much at all.

averagejoe
2007-01-31, 02:57 AM
It isn't complicated at all. He basically just has a buncha extra special bonus feats. I mean, I guess you have to read some of them, and that might take a little while.

Fizban
2007-01-31, 03:05 AM
Hm. I like it, except of wings. More flexibility is something paladin desperately needs. But wings just don't fit.
Wings always fit.

I'd be more concerened about it all happening at 20th, but then gradual flight abilities are just annoying, so it's probably better this way.

Also: holy crap Abd's back! (I actually noticed he was gone before this, points for me!)

Marius
2007-01-31, 01:18 PM
I like it a LOT, very good take on the paladin.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-31, 01:38 PM
I have begun the brainstorming process (with some outside help) for making this Paladin into a multiple alignment Paladin.

As of right now, it appears like the best course of action is to divide mantles into four groups: "Good Mantles", "Evil Mantles", "Lawful Mantles", and "Chaotic Mantles".

This would, of course, mean dividing the current Mantles between Good and Lawful.

elliott20
2007-01-31, 01:48 PM
I always thought that dividing the mantles by the Ultima system of conduct to be a good one. But this is not a bad idea either.

In essence, you can just take the mantles you have, and create their diametric opposite, I guess.

But then you would have some very strange results like, "must attack first at ALL times" or some such, which might result in some pretty chaotic stupid characters.

I think the best course of action here would be to create mantles that emphasizes less on morals and more on power, control and efficiency.

Deus Mortus
2007-01-31, 01:51 PM
I want to create an lawfull evil version of the paladin class, is it alright if I use this as a starting point?

Fax Celestis
2007-01-31, 02:03 PM
I want to create an lawfull evil version of the paladin class, is it alright if I use this as a starting point?

You can, but do note that I'm currently working on making this Paladin into multi aligned (LG/CG/LE/CE).

Deus Mortus
2007-01-31, 02:26 PM
I'm busy building up a gameworld where the paladin is a prc for a priest, so I'm going to change some things around anyway, I mostly like the mantle idear.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-31, 02:30 PM
I'm busy building up a gameworld where the paladin is a prc for a priest, so I'm going to change some things around anyway, I mostly like the mantle idear.

Go right ahead then.

barawn
2007-01-31, 04:16 PM
Honesty
The Paladin has foresworn lying, for any reason. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly makes a Bluff check for any reason other than to feint in combat, if he ever uses the Forgery skill, or if he ever lies.


What's the point of excluding just 'feint in combat'? There are a few other uses for Bluff in combat - Fade Into Violence, distraction to hide - so it seems that it would either make sense to just say "no Bluff checks, period" or "no Bluff checks outside of combat actions (e.g. feint, causing a distraction)".

Personally, I'd put "Bluff checks in combat" as part of "honor". Kicking a stone and running away and hiding doesn't seem very Honorable to me. Neither does cowering like a little girl so that they attack your friend. Of course, they don't seem very honest, either, so, who knows.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-31, 04:21 PM
That may be altered.

Telonius
2007-01-31, 04:24 PM
You can, but do note that I'm currently working on making this Paladin into multi aligned (LG/CG/LE/CE).

Hm. Well, one thing I can immediately think of is to alter the text to make it so the Paladin must take at least one alignment component of its deity; the paladin's other alignment component must be either good or lawful. You could make some other Mantles of Faith (like Deceit, Dishonor, Slaughter, Greed, etc.) only available for evil-aligned paladins. Some of the Mantles could be for any alignment (such as Conviction).

Quellian-dyrae
2007-01-31, 04:25 PM
Awesome idea. Some of the mantles, though, might need revision. I would remove the add ability bonus to stat abilities (except Cha to saves). I think one of the most easily exploitable power plays is one that allows you to add another ability score to a stat; even substituting ability scores can be quite powerful when used properly. This becomes especially critical when the stat bonus can also apply to allies.

Also, you may want to make sure that no stat can be boosted more than once. In particular, I'm looking at the stacking potential of Humility and Prudence.

I am unsure of Charity...20% of your wealth basically means 20% of your magic items, which is a stiff price for a Diplomacy boost and some Charm powers. I would suggest rewording Grace so that the paladin loses it if it flees a battle before all allies have retreated to safety, otherwise you are basing the paladin failing its oath on something it really has no control over.

Temperence seems a little odd, since ranged weapons are most useful in the first round of combat.

I hope these suggestions are useful.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-31, 04:33 PM
Awesome idea. Some of the mantles, though, might need revision. I would remove the add ability bonus to stat abilities (except Cha to saves). I think one of the most easily exploitable power plays is one that allows you to add another ability score to a stat; even substituting ability scores can be quite powerful when used properly. This becomes especially critical when the stat bonus can also apply to allies.

Also, you may want to make sure that no stat can be boosted more than once. In particular, I'm looking at the stacking potential of Humility and Prudence.

As sacred bonuses, benefits provided by different mantles do not stack. Humility and Prudence are a unique circumstance, and that may deserve alteration.


I am unsure of Charity...20% of your wealth basically means 20% of your magic items, which is a stiff price for a Diplomacy boost and some Charm powers. I would suggest rewording Grace so that the paladin loses it if it flees a battle before all allies have retreated to safety, otherwise you are basing the paladin failing its oath on something it really has no control over.

Diplomacy is one of the best skills out there. Further, charm SLAs are nothing to laugh at. Also, these mantles are supposed to be difficult to maintain, not easy.


Temperence seems a little odd, since ranged weapons are most useful in the first round of combat.

See last comment re: difficulty.

I don't mean to be short (and in fact appreciate your commentary); I am merely providing the rationale I used when creating this.

Quellian-dyrae
2007-01-31, 05:13 PM
Yeah I see your theories. It will probably work fine in most cases, where players are choosing their mantles based on how they want the paladin's vows to work (I really love how you did that, by the way). I was mainly talking about a strict stat-for-stat, power playing perspective. That's why the stat boosts worry me, not so because of stacking (I think the only potential stacks I see, aside from Prudence and Humility, are to saving throws anyway), but just because they let you add another ability modifier to a stat. As a power player, I'd take Honor and Humility as my first mantles in a heartbeat. As for Charity...use the gold you're saving to buy an item that gives you +10 to Diplomacy and another one that lets you cast Mass Charm Person 2/day ::grin::.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-31, 05:55 PM
Yeah I see your theories. It will probably work fine in most cases, where players are choosing their mantles based on how they want the paladin's vows to work (I really love how you did that, by the way). I was mainly talking about a strict stat-for-stat, power playing perspective. That's why the stat boosts worry me, not so because of stacking (I think the only potential stacks I see, aside from Prudence and Humility, are to saving throws anyway), but just because they let you add another ability modifier to a stat. As a power player, I'd take Honor and Humility as my first mantles in a heartbeat. As for Charity...use the gold you're saving to buy an item that gives you +10 to Diplomacy and another one that lets you cast Mass Charm Person 2/day ::grin::.

Even with that being the case, you'd still have a case of MAD. A Paladin under this system needs STR to be effective in combat, CON for resiliency, WIS for spells and some mantles, and CHA for turning and some mantles. Most classes are two-stat dependent: Barbarian (Str-Con), Sorceror (Int-Cha), and Rogue (Dex-Int), for instance. Other classes are single-stat dependent: Wizard (Int). The only other four-stat dependent class in Core is the Monk (with Str-Dex-Con-Wis). Branching out of Core, you also get the Duskblade (Str-Dex-Con-Int), the Spellthief (Dex-Int-Cha), and the Spirit Shaman (Int-Wis-Cha), just to name a few.

Quellian-dyrae
2007-01-31, 06:28 PM
I dunno. My experience is that adding ability scores to stats is very powerful. It's one of my favorite power playing tactics, leastwise. I suppose the overall effect probably won't be too much more dire than a fighter with all the weapon feats (including the PH2 ones), they just always leap out as one of the more exploitable abilities in the game. Maybe it's just me.

One way or another, I would suggest looking over the ones where the allies get the bonuses too. I mean, I'll be the first to say that D&D could use a few more abilities for aiding and, in particular, defending your allies, but at the same time I can't help but imagine a Temperance/Humility paladin with a maxed out Cha standing beside an archery style ranger with a maxed out Dex.

Shazzbaa
2007-01-31, 07:51 PM
One way or another, I would suggest looking over the ones where the allies get the bonuses too. I mean, I'll be the first to say that D&D could use a few more abilities for aiding and, in particular, defending your allies, but at the same time I can't help but imagine a Temperance/Humility paladin with a maxed out Cha standing beside an archery style ranger with a maxed out Dex.

I rather think these are good things. If the ranger's getting a massive boost from the Paladin's Temperance, then the rest of the party isn't going to complain every battle when the paladin hangs back for a round.

I find it interesting that, while most people try to ease up on the paladin's restrictions, this version's actually striving to keep it strict without making the paladin impossible to play (or, impossible to play without the rest of your party hating you). I'd actually be interested to see this variant in action.

Proven_Paradox
2007-02-01, 11:37 AM
I really, really like this varient, and I'll be introducing it to my players as soon as I can get a computer to help me run my games again. I'm especially glad that you liked the capstone that Eigth and I worked one (though I still like the name "Ascendance" better, but whatever you want to call it).

I never really got the idea of the special mount for paladins. While we're customising the paladin and giving them more options, perhaps we could consider taking the automatic special mount away and making it a feature granted by a mantle? This paladin, when played right, it already going to be really really powerful, especially next to other core melee classes, and I don't think this would be a particularly big blow to them power wise. Maybe they could get spellcasting buffs if that really bothered you.

elliott20
2007-02-01, 02:05 PM
I actually like this variant enough that if I get to run a game or participae in one I'm gonna try to work this in somehow.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 03:18 PM
I would direct everyone's attention to v2.0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1936789).