TWF Greatsword Fighter

[jjpickar]

I'm working on a fighter with monkey grip, twf, and over sized twf, feats so he can use two large longswords (basically greatswords). But I'm trying to figure out what to enchant my swords with and what other feats I should get. Any suggestions?

I know I'm taking a -4 penalty to attack. This character is supposed to look cool not be a total cheese monster. So if any of you power gamers out there want to tell me that this build is unfeasible, don't bother. I already know.:smallwink:

[Bears With Lasers]

...why do you want to make a character with two giant swords?

[jjpickar]

I was bored and trying to think of useful characters is NOT my strong point.:smallbiggrin: Also, I was trying to think of something to do with monkey grip. It doesn't appear to do anything useful so of course I have to use somehow.

Oh, I also was wondering if being a Tempest would help at all.

Edit: As I said, it looks cool.

[Bears With Lasers]

I think you mean it looks "silly" at best or, more likely, "ridiculous". Not "cool".

[jjpickar]

Why are you posting on this thread if you're just trying to make fun of the idea?:smallconfused: I was hoping for someone to help me out.

[Piccamo]

You could make some sort of charge monkey. Go 4 levels into Psychic Warrior if you can so you can use Psionic Lion's Charge, 5 levels of Druid grant you Lion's Charge and some other useful casting, but no bonus feats, and 8 levels of ranger grant you the same. If you do make a charge monkey, Valorous weapons are the way to go so you get extra damage on a charge.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

One of the people in my campaign has done exactly this. TWF, OTWF, monkey grip and the use of two large longswords. He has gone down the path of weapon focus, specialization, melee weapon mastery and things like that and he does pretty well actually. Check them out in the PHB2.

Edit: Yes, as with below posts, make sure you have a source of extra damage. My example player has flaming collision weapons and he rocks.

[Wehrkind]

Make the swords brilliant energy so they look like light sabres.

Anything you can do to get rid of some of that terrible penalty to hit would be good too. Permanant wraith strike or something?

Edit: OH OH!! Even better! tie a chain between them! Lightsaber chucks yo!
(Totally worth the exotic weapon feat)

[Indon]

I would get weapons with effects like Flaming and Frost, and maybe toss in some of the on-crit ones like thundering.

Because extra damage dice per-swing is solid for 2-weapon fighting, and it would look really cool for a weapon to have a huge burst of energy every time it crit.

[Zincorium]

I'm working on a fighter with monkey grip, twf, and over sized twf, feats so he can use two large longswords (basically greatswords). But I'm trying to figure out what to enchant my swords with and what other feats I should get. Any suggestions?

I know I'm taking a -4 penalty to attack. This character is supposed to look cool not be a total cheese monster. So if any of you power gamers out there want to tell me that this build is unfeasible, don't bother. I already know.:smallwink:

First off, read the description of monkey grip. You can't use it with offhand weapons. Period. So no wielding two large longswords without going into epic feats.

Second, you're taking a -4 penalty and spending a minimum of 4 feats to do less damage than a two handed fighter on anything except a full attack.

[jjpickar]

Love the lightsaberchucks.:smalltongue: Awww a rules lawyer posted to ruin our fun. I wish I had a summon pun-pun IX spell right about now.

Are there other feats that lower twf penalties?

[Archon-Blade]

well, not to burst your bubble, but I have seen the build made several times.
It's one of my friend's favorite "crazy NPC" builds: Half-dragon fighter/barbarian with two mercurial Greatswords.

Basicly as you can tell, AC and attack bonus are you big problems. As for extra feats try and take anything that will make those two problems less severe (eg. dodge, two-weapon defense, weapon focus etc.) As I have indicated earlier, if your trying simply to up your damage, mercurial Greatswords are a easy way to up it by a whole dice (of course that's another feat). One of the things to realize is that the build is best for tearing through lots of lower level enemies. So power-attack, cleave and great cleave just make the character more effective at it.

As for equipment, I've normally seen the build with magical breastplate and a barbarian level for fast-movement; oh and big swords. Can't forget the big magical swords. While you may be tempted to jump towards adding energy damage to your swords as soon as possible to up average damage, don't get carried away, you're going to need the attack bonus that the extra enchancement bonus could provide. Not so say that many people will disagree with your +1 flaming mercurial greatsword, but I would be very wary to put more than one non-enchancement bonus per every 4 "+'s" on the weapon. (so that +1 flameburst, undead bane, ghost touch greatsword is probbly a bad idea.) As for the rest of your equipment... STR bonus! get a belt of giant's Strength or at least gauntlets of ogre power as soon as possible (well before you get a set of +2 weapons). other than that I would suggest getting your standard ring of protection, cloak of resistance, ring of lucky dodge (or some other non-deflection AC bonus ring) and an amulet of natural armor. If your really want to be broken, get a weapon with a +1 and use activated "true strike". But any DM that allows that weapon should be dragged behind the chemical shed and shot (a +21 to rolls that ignores concealment for only 4000 gp!). Other than that equip him as you would any other tank/ damage sponge.

I hope that helped some.

I've personally never played this build, but have fun. Good luck with it.

[jjpickar]

Thanks Archon-Blade (no bubbles were burst in the making of this thread).

[Zincorium]

Love the lightsaberchucks.:smalltongue: Awww a rules lawyer posted to ruin our fun. I wish I had a summon pun-pun IX spell right about now.

Are there other feats that lower twf penalties?

Not really, it's usually a better bet to seek bonuses to offset them instead, but the Tempest PrC can pretty much eliminate them. Unfortunately, it adds even more feat requirements to an already feat heavy build, so it might not be the best choice.

[PinkysBrain]

Why are you posting on this thread if you're just trying to make fun of the idea?:smallconfused:
People will have to play with you, it might look cool on your character sheet ... but at some point the reality of the fact that being cool does not equate well with the inability to hit the broadside of a barn will start eating away at the verisimilitude of the game.

[jjpickar]

Then I'm glad that you were here to crush my one little dream.:smallfrown: :smalltongue: Just kidding. I'm doing this build for fun. I'm not actually planning to play as it. I might use it as an evil villain though.

[Arceliar]

...why do you want to make a character with two giant swords?

Why wouldn't he?

Remember that 2 weapon fighting requires a lot of dex...so normally it's not as useful to a fighter as, say, a rouge with many sneak attacks. I did find that a fighter/dragon shaman with weapon spec (bastard sword), oversized two weapon fighting, and slashing flurry creates a fairly high damage melee fighter. Especially when every few rounds has a random Quickened breath weapon (gotta love metabreath feats).

As far as Fighter goes, remember that as greatswords are not a light weapon, you can still significantly benefit from power attack while twf. Also note that, if you wan't to get REALLY specific on wording (which you should not, it ruins the game) then you can get 2x the damage on each sword, since Power attack says so "If you attack with a two-handed weapon" and never specifically states the two-handed weapon has to be used in two hands >.>

[jjpickar]

Hmmmm So your saying that this build is actually feasible? Hooray!:smallbiggrin: Maybe I will use it. That is, if my DM doesn't smite me for it first.:smallwink:

[Bears With Lasers]

Why are you posting on this thread if you're just trying to make fun of the idea?:smallconfused: I was hoping for someone to help me out.


For the same reason I'd do it if someone said "Hey, guys, I want to jump off a bridge. What's the best way to do it?"

I think it's a bad idea.


Edit: it won't be a high-damage character. Weapon Spec and Greater Weapon Spec won't change that.
You will miss. A lot.
Great Cleave is always a bad idea, but it's an even worse idea when each hit only does a little damage.
It won't be greatswords. a Large longsword is not the same thing as a greatsword, mechanically.
You won't be able to have a Large longsword (or normal greatsword) in your off hand.

[Arceliar]

For the same reason I'd do it if someone said "Hey, guys, I want to jump off a bridge. What's the best way to do it?"

I think it's a bad idea.

There's a difference between I want to and I am going to. I'd rather give information but discourage it's use than withhold the information to begin with, it's more fun that way.

Funny, if off topic, story.. my cousin's friends all jumped off a bridge. He did too..and shattered his jaw. I'm serious..and a little ashamed that we must share chromosomes..

[PinkysBrain]

Longswords are not two handed weapons. As for slashing fury, that would end up with -9 to hit in this case ...

If I wanted to optimize wielding two really big weapons I'd go for a ruby knight vindicator ... get dual strike, and use it together with quickened true strike (somehow) and eventually the nightmare blade maneuvers.

[Obtree]

You've played too much Diablo2...

[Norsesmithy]

I jump off bridges all the time, I always check to make sure I will land in more than 7 feet of water though. It is really fun, we do it while canoeing on the Namakogan river in Wisconsin.

However, if their wasn't water to catch me, it would still be less painful than trying to dual weild large longswords, I had thought that this thread was about using a Greatsword and Armor Spikes to TWF.

I think you should try to TWF Spiked Chain and Armor Spikes.

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

Hitting won't be your friend with this class. I tried to get a TWF character to work with tempest levels, and I still missed a lot- and I was using two regular sized swords.

Maybe have fun with this character? Make him a complete showoff, to the point of being ridiculous?

[kenjigoku]

I'm working on a fighter with monkey grip, twf, and over sized twf, feats so he can use two large longswords (basically greatswords). But I'm trying to figure out what to enchant my swords with and what other feats I should get. Any suggestions?

I know I'm taking a -4 penalty to attack. This character is supposed to look cool not be a total cheese monster. So if any of you power gamers out there want to tell me that this build is unfeasible, don't bother. I already know.:smallwink:

You can't use Oversized TWF it only applies to ONE HANDED WEAPONS which a great sword equivalent does not meet!

[Wehrkind]

You should talk your DM into letting you enchant your swords such that when you miss, they cast fireball. Then just get rings of fire resistance, and you are set.

You could call them "Flaming Foils of Frustrated Fire."

[Daracaex]

Cause, you know, missing then having an exploding ball of fire blast the person you missed and you into oblivion would be a very intelligent thing to do.[/sarcasm]

Just kidding! I'm not trying to be mean, but I think your concept went a little ascue.

EDIT: Ok, nevermind. I missed the part about the fire resistance rings.

[Wehrkind]

Yea, those are definitely key to the plan. Self immolation is typically a sub-par solution to accuracy issues :)
Since you are going to be missing a lot more than actually hitting anything, keying the ability to "on hit" like most of the bonuses doesn't really work :)

[Cybren]

No but self-immolation is a ticket to getting a juicy snack.
http://www.alessonislearned.com/cmx/lesson006.jpg

[Roderick_BR]

If you use 3.0, you can use Monkey Grip. It'll be murder on your to-hit.
In 3.5, you can use large size long swords for the same effect with Monkey Grip, I think.

[Darkshade]

this build is way easier in gestahlt.
i imagine any build is way easier in gestahlt
but this one really turns around and rocks in gestahlt.
fighter 20 up one side
ranger 5/ Dervish 10 / Tempest 5 up the other
course thats for scimitars... or large scimitars conceivably.
then again...
Scout 20 one side
Ranger 1/ fighter 4/ Dervish 10/ Tempest 5 up the other
thats when you want to really really be cheap

[Wehrkind]

No but self-immolation is a ticket to getting a juicy snack.
http://www.alessonislearned.com/cmx/lesson006.jpg

Wow... that is both gigglishious (yes, it deserves a new word) and highly confusing. Very nice.

[Yuki Akuma]

Wow, there's... a lot of misconceptions in this thread. I wish I had that picture...

MONKEY GRIP DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!


Monkey Grip does not allow you to wield a greatsword one-handed. It allows you to wield a Large-sized weapon as easily as if it were Medium-sized (that is, if you're playing a human!), albeit at a -2 penalty.

The sword in your on-hand (as it only works with your on-hand) would be longsword (or a bastard sword, if you want to waste another feat), and would therefore be a one-handed weapon. The 'best' you can do is a medium-sized bastard sword in your off-hand, a large-sized bastard sword in your right, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword). If you want to look like a total idiot.

So only 1:1 Power Attack.

And it would be better to just Power Attack for -4 than to Monkey Grip and Power Attack for -2.

Now take levels in Tempest, and get those swords enhanced to +2 weapons. Congratulations; you have a slightly higher damage output, at the cost of four feats, ~five PrC levels and 16,000 gp!

[Wehrkind]

You know... I was kidding before, but can you enchant something to have an effect when you miss?

[Zincorium]

this build is way easier in gestahlt.
i imagine any build is way easier in gestahlt
but this one really turns around and rocks in gestahlt.
fighter 20 up one side
ranger 5/ Dervish 10 / Tempest 5 up the other
course thats for scimitars... or large scimitars conceivably.
then again...
Scout 20 one side
Ranger 1/ fighter 4/ Dervish 10/ Tempest 5 up the other
thats when you want to really really be cheap

Well, I have to congratulate you for completely both missing the point of gestalt and wasting it's potential as well as not solving the real drawbacks of the build with the first build you suggested.

The 2nd one could work fairly well in the skillmonkey/tank role, but when you've got a Wizard 20//cleric 5/Geomancer 10/Heirophant 5 (for example) on spellcaster duty, you're going to get outshined, period.

Back to the OP, y'know what I would do? Play a half-ogre, drop the monkey grip silliness, get oversized TWF and go otherwise normally through the TWF tree.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

yah, I agree with my compatriots here; Go with dual bastard swords. there is no need for the atrocious Monkey Grip, and... hell you have 2 weapons that are a curseword.

[clericwithnogod]

Didn''t see it mentioned, but Sun Blades are nice for getting the effect of dual-wielding two big swords if you want to get that "look" for your character.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#sunBlade

[Darrin]

Back to the OP, y'know what I would do? Play a half-ogre, drop the monkey grip silliness, get oversized TWF and go otherwise normally through the TWF tree.

Naw, I think we're all missing the holy grail here: combining TWF with THF. How about:

Thri-Kreen. Four arms, TWF w/ two greatswords. Add the PA/IBR/ST combo. Add the Two-Headed template so each pair of arms gets a full-attack. Or... um... hmm. I guess two-headed would remove the need for the TWF tree, although you could add armor spikes for the offhand attacks.

[Indon]

Didn''t see it mentioned, but Sun Blades are nice for getting the effect of dual-wielding two big swords if you want to get that "look" for your character.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#sunBlade

Or better yet, get Monkey Grip and wield two Large Sun Blades!

[Yakk]

So, Oversized TWF, TWF chain.

Two Large Sun Blade Swords.

Sun Blades can be treated as short swords (a Tiny weapon).

Large Short Swords are Small Sized and can be wielded as one hand weapons without using any feats.

It is upped one size category, so you get -2 to hit.

You can wield Small Weapons with oversized TWF in your off hand.

Each does 2d8 damage (average 9) at -4 to hit, so average of 18 damage.

Each -1 power attack boosts each weapon by +1.

A Greatsword with -4 power attack does 7 + 8 = 15 damage.

In effect, you have burnt 2 feats + 1 every 5 levels to gain:
+3 damage per iterative attack
Far less damage when not making a full attack.
Double +magic damage bonus's.
Double bonus damage dice on full attack.
More expensive weapons.

As a note, your weapons are double-sized Bastard swords. Bastard swords start out at about 4 to 5 feet in length, each size boost doubles it, so that's 8 to 10 feet long. Large enough?

Your goal is to now boost your character's accuracy through any means possible.

It isn't nearly as bad as it could be. Your biggest flaws are:
1> You need mobility
2> You have issues hitting high-AC targets.
3> Your weapons are ridiculously specific.

[Darrin]

Or better yet, get Monkey Grip and wield two Large Sun Blades!

Actually, I think a Large Sun Blade would be the equivalent of a one-handed weapon (short swords are light melee weapons). So I don't think you'd need Monkey Grip, although I think Oversize TWF might help there. Now, reading the 3.5 Monkey Grip description actually causes my brain to hemmorage in a non-Euclidian way, so I'm not sure if it would work with two Huge Sun Blades (huge short sword = two-handed weapon for medium wielder). Probably not.

[SpiderBrigade]

I should point out, that for all intents and purposes, a greatsword is identical to a Large longsword.* So if you're hell-bent on dual-wielding greatswords, it would have the same effect if you Monkey-Gripped a pair of Large longswords. And that's legal, AFAIK.

It's still suboptimal, though. But that might not be the point.

*Longsword: M: 1d8 L: 2d6, all 19-20 x2
.Greatsword: M: 2d6 L: 3d6, all 19-20 x2

[Yuki Akuma]

Actually, I think a Large Sun Blade would be the equivalent of a one-handed weapon (short swords are light melee weapons). So I don't think you'd need Monkey Grip, although I think Oversize TWF might help there. Now, reading the 3.5 Monkey Grip description actually causes my brain to hemmorage in a non-Euclidian way, so I'm not sure if it would work with two Huge Sun Blades (huge short sword = two-handed weapon for medium wielder). Probably not.

MONKET GRIP DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY! (Why oh why can't I find that picture?)

*ahem* A large Sun Blade is a light weapon. If you do not have Monkey Grip, you wield it as a one-handed weapon, but it is still a light weapon.

[Darrin]

I should point out, that for all intents and purposes, a greatsword is identical to a Large longsword.

Yes, noted, but SRD/RAW doesn't acknowledge weapon size equivalency. It *should*, but I think WotC got Improved Rules Evasion a couple levels back.

[SpiderBrigade]

Why does it matter if that equivalency is noted, or not? If the goal is to use two really big swords, large longswords fit that bill. Does it really matter that it doesn't say "Greatsword" on your char. sheet?

[Charity]

Is there a way to get reach with TWF?
Just curious really, obviously if one was to have a large character, but for medium size.

[Yakk]

No. A large longsword is not a greatsword.

A large longsword won't have the right grip or balance for a medium sized characte. Hence if you use a large longsword as a medium sized character, you take a -2 penalty on your to-hit rolls. Without monkey grip, you can only use it two handed. With monkey grip, you can use it one handed.

A greatsword is balanced for a medium sized character using it in two hands. While it does the same damage as a large longsword, it is not the same weapon. A medium sized character using a greatsword in two hands does not take a -2 to hit penalty. A medium sized character using a greatsword with monkey grip -- well, monkey grip does nothing.

A large creature using a greatsword in one hand also takes a -2 penalty to hit with it, because that greatsword is balanced and designed to be used by a medium sized creature in one hand. If the large creature uses the greatsword in two hands, he still takes a -2 penalty, because his hands don't fit right and the weapon is balanced wrong.

[Yakk]

Is there a way to get reach with TWF?
Just curious really, obviously if one was to have a large character, but for medium size.

A small spiked chain with oversized two weapon fighting is a reach weapon that can be offhanded by a medium sized character.

-2 to hit, 1d6 damage.

The same trick works with most reach weapons I believe. A small glave is -2 to hit and 1d8 damage, and doesn't take special feats.

[Darrin]

Why does it matter if that equivalency is noted, or not? If the goal is to use two really big swords, large longswords fit that bill. Does it really matter that it doesn't say "Greatsword" on your char. sheet?

I'm not sure how many DMs here are super-strict about RAW, but when people ask for advice or rules help, it's generally helpful to point out explicitly what's officially kosher and what's a houserule. It might also help you "sell" an optimized build to a DM if you're able to inform him up-front on which judgement calls he/she has to make.

And there are some situations where a small or large version of a weapon isn't an identical match to another medium-sized weapon... usually regarding weight, which might be an issue if your DM likes to be anal about encumbrance. A small-sized greatsword has the identical damage and critical to a medium-sized bastard sword, but the weight is 4 lbs instead of 6 lbs.

So if you say weapons with similar stats are equivalent, then you're also saying a medium-sized character specializing in bastard swords can shave 2 to 4 lbs off his carrying weight. Yes, a truly world-shaking scenario of horrifying proportions, to be sure, but every little fraction or minor bonus here and there could add up to a broken loophole down the road.

Another trick to squeeze a few GPs out of chargen: Take the explorer's outfit as your free clothing (worth 10GP). Trade it back for 4 GP, 9 SP and a peasant's outfit (weighs less, too!). Buy the rest of your starting equip with that.

[clericwithnogod]

So, does walking around with 2 stupidly big Sun Blades in an ineffective way make you a better roleplayer than someone that walks around being stupidly big from Righteous Might in an effective way? :amused:

[elliott20]

yeah, I would just go TWF, Monkey Grip, Large Long Swords.

you're leading hand is still taking a -4 to hit to begin with, but hey, you got your large blade wielding guy now.

[Yuki Akuma]

yeah, I would just go TWF, Monkey Grip, Large Long Swords.

you're leading hand is still taking a -4 to hit to begin with, but hey, you got your large blade wielding guy now.

-6, unless you also have Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (the penalty for not wielding a light weapon in your off-hand applies to both weapons).

[clericwithnogod]

The thought of a guy wielding two 10' long bastard swords in a 5' hallway (or when squeezing into half his normally sized space at -4) fills me with an evil joy.

[elliott20]

don't worry, said joy will quickly be dashed when you start whiffing

[Matthew]

-6, unless you also have Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (the penalty for not wielding a light weapon in your off-hand applies to both weapons).

I thought Monkey Grip cancelled the -2 for Large Weapons? If he has Oversized Two Weapon Fighting as well as Two Weapon Fighting and Monkey Grip, he should have only a -2 / -2 Penalty, shouldn't he?

[SpiderBrigade]

No. A large longsword is not a greatsword.

A large longsword won't have the right grip or balance for a medium sized characte. Hence if you use a large longsword as a medium sized character, you take a -2 penalty on your to-hit rolls. Without monkey grip, you can only use it two handed. With monkey grip, you can use it one handed.

A greatsword is balanced for a medium sized character using it in two hands. While it does the same damage as a large longsword, it is not the same weapon. A medium sized character using a greatsword in two hands does not take a -2 to hit penalty. A medium sized character using a greatsword with monkey grip -- well, monkey grip does nothing.

A large creature using a greatsword in one hand also takes a -2 penalty to hit with it, because that greatsword is balanced and designed to be used by a medium sized creature in one hand. If the large creature uses the greatsword in two hands, he still takes a -2 penalty, because his hands don't fit right and the weapon is balanced wrong.
Right. I'm not saying "ohh, you can just swap longswords and greatswords at will." What I"m saying is, statwise, they do the same thing. So if you're, for instance, trying to dual-wield greatswords (which you CANNOT DO, because they are two-handed weapons, period) you can get the same damage/crit range from a Large longsword. Yes, you will have to deal with penalties from TWF and etc. Yes you will have to take monkey grip. But you can get the flavor you want, which is using two big honking swords.


I'm not sure how many DMs here are super-strict about RAW, but when people ask for advice or rules help, it's generally helpful to point out explicitly what's officially kosher and what's a houserule. It might also help you "sell" an optimized build to a DM if you're able to inform him up-front on which judgement calls he/she has to make.
Again, I'm NOT saying that they're the same weapon. I'm not asking any DMs to let a character somehow count a Greatsword as a large longsword. All I'm saying is this: the weapons are almost identical statwise, except there's certain things you can do with a Large longsword that you can't with a greatsword. SO if you're trying to DO those things (monkey grip, etc) just use a longsword and you're not losing anything by not using a greatsword.

So if you say weapons with similar stats are equivalent, then you're also saying a medium-sized character specializing in bastard swords can shave 2 to 4 lbs off his carrying weight. Yes, a truly world-shaking scenario of horrifying proportions, to be sure, but every little fraction or minor bonus here and there could add up to a broken loophole down the road. Again, I never said they should be somehow "counted as the same weapon." I agree with you that that would be bad, for lots and lots of reasons. What I'm saying is, "If you can't do it with a greatsword, maybe you CAN do it with a Large Longsword."

Okay, I think I've repeated myself enough for now :smallwink:

[Thomas]

I thought Monkey Grip cancelled the -2 for Large Weapons? If he has Oversized Two Weapon Fighting as well as Two Weapon Fighting and Monkey Grip, he should have only a -2 / -2 Penalty, shouldn't he?

Monkey Grip reduces the penalty from -4 to -2.

[clericwithnogod]

don't worry, said joy will quickly be dashed when you start whiffing

Who cares about whiffing on something like that? It's the mental picture that Escher would have a hard time conjuring of how the heck you're doing it that's fun.

[Yuki Akuma]

I thought Monkey Grip cancelled the -2 for Large Weapons? If he has Oversized Two Weapon Fighting as well as Two Weapon Fighting and Monkey Grip, he should have only a -2 / -2 Penalty, shouldn't he?

Monkey Grip doesn't do a thing about the penalty. It just lets you use an oversized weapon the way it's intended to be wielded (so you can wield a Large light weapon in your off-hand to reduce the penalties for Two-Weapon Fighting, or you can wield a Large greatsword, which you can't normally do at all).

A character using a Large longsowrd in two hands without Monkey Grip takes the same to-hit penalty as a character using the same longsword in just one hand with Monkey Grip.

(*reads his DMG some more* Oh shi-)

[elliott20]

Who cares about whiffing on something like that? It's the mental picture that Escher would have a hard time conjuring of how the heck you're doing it that's fun.
Yeah, that's what I thought right after, but then I also started to imagine the guy try to swing said swords in a tight corridor. Now I'm chuckling inside.

[Zincorium]

A small spiked chain with oversized two weapon fighting is a reach weapon that can be offhanded by a medium sized character.

-2 to hit, 1d6 damage.

The same trick works with most reach weapons I believe. A small glave is -2 to hit and 1d8 damage, and doesn't take special feats.

Kusari-Gama, from the DMG. Light weapon, decent damage, and has the same reach property as the spiked chain without the -2 and questionable rules application.

[Arceliar]

Don't forget whips... 1 handed weapon and 15ft reach >.> though totally useless on anything except maybe a nude kobold.

[Zincorium]

Don't forget whips... 1 handed weapon and 15ft reach >.> though totally useless on anything except maybe a nude kobold.

1 handed vs. light weapon: Kusari gama wins for TWF
damage: Kusari gama wins (1d3 against nonarmored against 1d6)
Proficiency: same (unless you're a bard)
Reach: Whip wins, but...
Actually threatening it's reach area: Kusari gama wins

[Flawless]

As has been stated before you simply can't use monkey grip with your off-hand. A medium sized bastardsword is the best you can do with your off-hand.

You could do yourself a favour and just play a half giant. With over-sized twf and the exotic wp you could easily wield two large bastardswords at -2/-2 while still being medium sized. The tempest PrC would eliminate the penalties after four levels and three feats (dodge, mobility, spring attack).

[PinkysBrain]

A medium sized bastardsword is the best you can do with your off-hand.
A large sized sun blade works as well (for a medium character).

[Matthew]

As has been stated before you simply can't use monkey grip with your off-hand. A medium sized bastardsword is the best you can do with your off-hand.

Wait a second, why not?

[PinkysBrain]

Wait a second, why not?Cause the feat says so.

[Matthew]

Oh yeah, I never noticed that clause before. Such a bad Feat.

[Wehrkind]

Oh yeah, I never noticed that clause before. Such a bad Feat.

Understatement of the week.
If we could figure out how to anthropomorphize (not to be confused with valmorphanize) the feat, we should make a little flash animation of it performing "Bad" by Michael Jackson to link to every time someone brings it up in a thread. Just in case they were not certain.

[jjpickar]

The trick to playing this character is twofold: First have your DM look at your build and decide that it isn't like your trying to break the game or anything and ignore the monkey grip clause. Second avoid hallways that aren't at least 15' wide. Voila! Big sword guy!:smallbiggrin:

[Wehrkind]

Plus side, with properly designed sheaths the swords could double as stilts.

[Matthew]

Understatement of the week.

Hey, I thought it was an awful Feat, both mechanically and conceptually, before that clause was brought to my attention.

[Yakk]

Note that you don't need monkey grip to do this.

One-size-upped Sun blades work perfectly fine in the offhand with oversized TWF. They can be wielded as short swords, which when you up them one size are one-handed weapons.

With monkey grip you can wield two-sized-upped sun blades in your main hand I think...

[Zincorium]

With monkey grip you can wield two-sized-upped sun blades in your main hand I think...

Er...what? I dunno about your game, but my DM frowns heavily on me wielding more than one weapon in a single hand. And since monkey grip doesn't apply to your off-hand, you're still wielding a large one and a medium one if you meant in either hand.

[Rigeld2]

Er...what? I dunno about your game, but my DM frowns heavily on me wielding more than one weapon in a single hand. And since monkey grip doesn't apply to your off-hand, you're still wielding a large one and a medium one if you meant in either hand.

He meant a Sun Blade with two size increases.

[TimeWizard]

Why settle for large longswords when you could go with...

*looks left and right*

EWP: Fullblade

Not that you heard it from me...

[Flawless]

Note that you don't need monkey grip to do this.

One-size-upped Sun blades work perfectly fine in the offhand with oversized TWF. They can be wielded as short swords, which when you up them one size are one-handed weapons.

With monkey grip you can wield two-sized-upped sun blades in your main hand I think...

No, it doesn't work that way. A sun-blade one size-category larger can either be wieled as a large bastard sword or as a large short sword which is not the same as a medium-sized longsword. So to use a large sun-blade you'd still need monkey grip which you can only use with your main-hand.
So no two large sun-blades and defenitely not even one huge sun-blade which equals either a huge short sword or bastard sword and thus is not useable by a medium-sized charakter.

[Thomas]

Eh? You don't need Monkey Grip to wield a Large shortsword. It just reduces the effort. You can, by default, wield a Large shortsword as a one-handed weapon (not a light weapon) at -2 to hit. A Huge shortsword is a two-handed weapon at -4 to hit. Monkey Grip would let you wield the Large shortsword as a light weapon, but wouldn't help at all with Huge weapons.

Monkey Grip with a Large shortsword is worse than just wielding a Large shortsword in your main hand; with Monkey Grip, you can't use Power Attack with it! How about that?

[Flawless]

You're right. lol ;)

[Yuki Akuma]

Note that you don't need monkey grip to do this.

One-size-upped Sun blades work perfectly fine in the offhand with oversized TWF. They can be wielded as short swords, which when you up them one size are one-handed weapons.

With monkey grip you can wield two-sized-upped sun blades in your main hand I think...

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l150/jtoppan/morbo.jpg
MONKEY GRIP DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

(I found the picture. *glee*)

[Yakk]

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l150/jtoppan/morbo.jpg
MONKEY GRIP DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

(I found the picture. *glee*)

Are you disagreeing with all or part of my post?

Which part of my post are you disagreeing with?

I am uncertain if the wording of monkey grip does anything at all to two-size-upped items. Possibly not, but I don't have a copy of the text.

[Zincorium]

I am uncertain if the wording of monkey grip does anything at all to two-size-upped items. Possibly not, but I don't have a copy of the text.

The wording specifically says 'one size larger'. Which means, strictly speaking, that the feat cannot be used, period, with weapons that don't qualify by virtue of being anything other than a single size category larger. Also, it would be a really, really good idea to get a copy of the relevant rules before making claims about how they work.

[Yuki Akuma]

In 3.0, Monkey Grip would have allowed you to wield a greatsword (basically the same as a Huge short sword) as a one-handed weapon. This is no longer true for 3.5, although many, many people seem to think it is.

Monkey Grip does nothing for weapons two sized categories larger than you. It only works with weapons one size category larger.

[Bears With Lasers]

Also, it would be a really, really good idea to get a copy of the relevant rules before making claims about how they work.


Are you freakin' kidding me? This is THE INTERNET! It's FOR spouting uninformed opinions! (Also, porn.)

[Thomas]

I still think it's hilarious that Monkey Grip actually makes Large light weapons worse than they'd be if you didn't have Monkey Grip.

[Bears With Lasers]

It doesn't. You might be thinking of 3.0 weapon size categories.

[Thomas]

A Large shortsword is usable, by default, as a one-handed weapon at a -2 penalty. With Monkey Grip, you use it as a light weapon, at a -2 penalty. The difference? No Power Attack.

[Yakk]

A Large shortsword is usable, by default, as a one-handed weapon at a -2 penalty. With Monkey Grip, you use it as a light weapon, at a -2 penalty. The difference? No Power Attack.

And weapon finess, and off-handable without additional penalties.

[NEO|Phyte]

And weapon finess, and off-handable without additional penalties.
You can only finesse weapons built for your size, and monkeygrip can't be used on the off-hand

[Yakk]

You can only finesse weapons built for your size, and monkeygrip can't be used on the off-hand

Good point on the monkey grip not working on the offhand.

Citation for the weapon finess?

[NEO|Phyte]

Citation for the weapon finess?
From the feat itself:

Benefit

With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

[Leon]

Hmmmm So your saying that this build is actually feasible? Hooray!:smallbiggrin: Maybe I will use it. That is, if my DM doesn't smite me for it first.:smallwink:

Anything is feasible, wether its practical is another matter - to many people will decry a Build idea becuase its not "optimised" to its fullest potential

If i was to build a Large sword TWF type i'd opt put for the simpler means of EWP: Bastard Sword

[Rigeld2]

Anything is feasible, wether its practical is another matter - to many people will decry a Build idea becuase its not "optimised" to its fullest potential

Theres a difference between not optomized to its fullest potential and foolishly weak. Monkey Grip is foolishly weak. TWF is not optomized to its fullest potential. Combining them is foolishly optomizing to your weakest potential.