Base Prestige classes (Arcane Trickster)

[Jormengand]

Part of my base prestige classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=332782) project.


The Arcane Trickster
LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial 0lvl1st2nd3rd4th5th6th

1st+0+0+2+2Ranged Legerdemain 1/Day41—————

2nd+1+0+3+3Sneak Attack 1d642—————

3rd+1+1+3+3Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/day, Evasion431————

4th+2+1+4+4Sneak Attack 2d6442————

5th+2+1+4+4Light Steps, Ranged Legerdemain 2/Day443————

6th+3+2+5+5Sneak Attack 3d64431———

7th+3+2+5+5Impromptu Sneak Attack 2/day4442———

8th+4+2+6+6Sneak Attack 4d64443———

9th+4+3+6+6Telekinetic Grab 1/day, Ranged Legerdemain 3/Day44431——

10th+5+3+7+7Illusory double, Sneak Attack 5d644442——

11th+5+3+7+7Impromptu Sneak Attack 3/day44443——

12th+6/+1+4+8+8Sneak Attack 6d6444431—

13th+6/+1+4+8+8Telekinetic Grab 2/day, Ranged Legerdemain 4/Day444442—

14th+7/+2+4+9+9Sneak Attack 7d6444443—

15th+7/+2+5+9+9Impromptu Sneak Attack 4/day4444431

16th+8/+3+5+10+10Sneak Attack 8d64444441

17th+8/+3+5+10+10Telekinetic Grab 3/day, Ranged Legerdemain 5/Day4444442

18th+9/+4+6+11+11Sneak Attack 9d64444443

19th+9/+4+6+11+11Impromptu Sneak Attack 5/day4444444

20th+10/+5+6+12+12Retroactive Illusion, Sneak Attack 10d64444444



Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d4

Class Skills:
The arcane trickster’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Arcane Tricksters are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Arcane Tricksters are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Spellcasting:
An arcane trickster casts arcane spells, and knows all the spells on the arcane trickster spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, an arcane trickster must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an arcane trickster's spell is 10 + the spell level + the arcane trickster's intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, an arcane trickster can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Arcane Trickster. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

As noted above, an arcane trickster need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.

Ranged Legerdemain (Su)
An arcane trickster can perform one of the following class skills at a range of 30 feet: Disable Device, Open Lock, or Sleight of Hand. Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5, and an arcane trickster cannot take 10 on this check. Any object to be manipulated must weigh 5 pounds or less.

An arcane trickster can use ranged legerdemain once per day initially, and once more every four levels after first. He can only use Ranged Legerdemain if he has at least 1 rank in the skill being used.

Sneak Attack (Ex)
This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and so on). If an arcane trickster gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

Evasion (Ex)
At 3rd level and higher, an arcane trickster can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the arcane trickster is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless arcane trickster does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Impromptu Sneak Attack (Ex)
Beginning at 3rd level, once per day an arcane trickster can declare one melee or ranged attack he makes to be a sneak attack (the target can be no more than 30 feet distant if the impromptu sneak attack is a ranged attack). The target of an impromptu sneak attack loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, but only against that attack. The power can be used against any target, but creatures that are not subject to critical hits take no extra damage (though they still lose any Dexterity bonus to AC against the attack).

Every fourth level after third, the arcane trickster can use this ability once more per day.

Light Steps (Ex)
At 6th level, an arcane trickster learns to move while barely touching the surface underneath him. As a full-round action, he can move up to twice his speed, ignoring difficult terrain. While moving in this way, any surface will support him, no matter how much he weighs. This allows him to move across water, lava, or even the thinnest tree branches. He must end his move on a surface that can support her normally. He cannot move across air in this way, nor can he walk up walls or other vertical surfaces. When moving in this way, he does not take damage from surfaces or hazards that react to being touched, such as lava or caltrops, nor does he need to make Acrobatics checks to avoid falling on slippery or rough surfaces. Finally, when using light steps, the ninja ignores any mechanical traps that use a location-based trigger.

Telekinetic grab (Su)
Once per day at ninth level, and once more every four levels thereafter, the Arcane Trickster may make a telekinetic grab on an object, creature or piece of terrain within 60 feet, so long as he has a hand free. This allows him to do multiple things, but each expends one of his uses per day:

Grab creature: The arcane trickster may grab a single creature as a standard action. This creature must take an opposed strength and dexterity check against the arcane trickster's intelligence and dexterity check (add the two ability score modifiers together). The target cannot add their dexterity modifier if they are denied their dexterity modifier to AC.

If they fail, the arcane trickster can drag them up to 30 feet towards him, and they fall prone. Or, the arcane trickster can pull himself towards the target, moving instantly into the creature's square and making a free bull rush or grapple attempt with a +10 bonus for moving so quickly and getting the jump on the creature. The arcane trickster may also move part of the way towards them in a straight line instead.

Grab item: The arcane trickster may, as a standard action, make a disarm attempt on any held object, or simply target an unattended object, so long as the object weighs no more than 10 lbs/level. The arcane trickster is treated as using a 2-handed weapon for the disarm attempt, and uses his intelligence and caster level instead of his strength and base attack bonus. If the disarm attempt is successful or unnecessary, the object goes to the arcane trickster's hand.

Grab location: As an immediate action, the arcane trickster may grab a static location, such as a cliff face or large object, and go towards that location in a straight line. He may "Overshoot" the location by up to 10 feet, thus actually allowing him to get on top of a cliff through this, but he may also land in any square up to the one with the location in.

Illusory Double (Su): At tenth level, the arcane trickster can use tricks of the light, mind tricks, smoke and mirrors to create an illusory double. This takes a full-round action, and if he does so while someone's looking, it is immediately obvious who is real and who is an illusion. The illusory double cannot actually affect anyone or anything, and must remain within 60 feet of the arcane trickster.

The illusion is a perfect double - if you cut it, it bleeds, and if you set it on fire, it burns. It appeals correctly to all senses, even creating the illusion of heat. If you throw something at the illusion, it appears to get stuck in the illusion while the real item flies straight through. The only way to find out which is real and which is fake is to touch them - even true seeing is ineffective. The illusion can't be dispelled, as it is not a spell, but sometimes winks out in an anti-magic field like a summoned creature.

The illusion can theoretically be wounded, paralysed, petrified, or even killed. Therefore, it is necessary to track the illusion's hit points and condition separately - they start the same as the arcane trickster's. The double can also use the arcane trickster's telekinetic grab ability and non-damaging spells a number of times equal to the number of uses the arcane trickster had left. If the arcane trickster or the illusion falls unconscious or dies, the illusion vanishes.

The arcane trickster may dismiss the double as a free action.

Retroactive illusion (Su): At twentieth level, the arcane trickster need not choose which of him and his illusion is real - both are real, and both are the illusion. At any time when a person would find out which was real and which was fake, the arcane trickster must then make that decision.

Arcane Trickster Spell List

0lvl

Detect Magic
Know Direction
Mage Hand
Light
Message
Prestidigitation

1st

Comprehend Languages
Detect Secret Doors
Identify
Disguise Self
Nystul’s Magic Aura
Animate Rope
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Grease
Undetectable Alignment
Stand
Bibgy's Tripping Hand
Golem Strike
Instant Locksmith
Instant Search
Sniper’s Shot
Grave Strike

2nd

Arcane Lock
Glitterdust
Detect Thoughts
Locate Object
See Invisibility
Darkness
Invisibility
Mirror Image
Misdirection
Ghoul Touch
Alter Self
Knock
Levitate
Rope Trick
Spider Climb
Animal Messenger
Cat’s Grace
Deflect
Cloud of Knives
Bigby's Warding Hand
Celerity, Lesser
Spymaster’s Coin
Wraithstrike

3rd

Explosive Runes
Nondetection
Phantom Steed
Arcane Sight
Suggestion
Displacement
Invisibility Sphere
Vampiric Touch
Haste
Gaseous Form
Illusory Script
Secret Page
Melf's Unicorn Arrow
Alter Fortune
Bibgy's Disrupting Hand
Siphon
Disobedience

4th

Dimensional Anchor
Fire Trap
Dimension Door
Detect Scrying
Arcane Eye
Invisibility, Greater
Mirror Image, Greater
Celerity
Freedom of Movement
Leomund’s Secure Shelter
Zone of Silence
Spell Theft
Melf's Slumber Arrows
Otiluke's Suppressing Field
Anticipate Teleportation

5th

Dispel Magic, Greater
Break Enchantment
Leomund’s Secret Chest
Rary’s Telepathic Bond
Symbol of Sleep
Bigby’s Interposing Hand
Sending
False Vision
Persistent Image
Passwall
Telekinesis
Etherealness, swift
Scry Location
Shadow Form
Evacuation Rune

6th

Antimagic Field
Legend Lore
True Seeing
Symbol of Persuasion
Bigby’s Forceful Hand
Contingency
Mislead
Permanent Image
Programmed Image
Veil
Scrying, Greater
Charm Monster, Mass
Hindsight
Celerity, Greater

[ngilop]

Question: Is this class supposed to replace the rogue? IF so then ignore half of what I am about to say.

The same scale of sneak attack dice combined with impromptu sneak attack and 6th level spells makes this class a bit too much

Now you’ve gone and made a rogue a completely useless choice of a class. You got just as good or maybe better skills points ( since this is an int based class) better offense, not only can you give yourself dozens of way to get your sneak attack off now (swift invisibility springs to mind), but now you can sneak attack with some crazy awesome spells. Not to mention the sweet defenses you get with the duskblade spell list.

Why did you pick the duskblade list? (disregarding the fact that duskblades only get 5th level max and your arcane trickster gets 6th)The duskblade list is much more oriented towards fighting and in your face blast and damage dealing. While the name of this class is arcane trickster.. Id think the Beguiler spell list would be better or ya know just the wizard/sorcerer spell list.
I do not feel the duskblade spell list is in keeping with the theme of an arcane trickster, and no where as close as the beguiler list would be.

The 10th level ability is waay too much, If an illusion actually has hit points and one must keep track of actual conditions, use class abilities like telekinetic grab OR the fact that it is allowed to cast spells. let alone that it ignores true seeing a spell that counters illusions and comes online at 11th level, it ceases to be an illusion is in that semi-real state, which I think is a bit too much. the only way somebody is going to know which is the illusion is they literally have to kill it. SO in effect at 10th level you’ve allowed the arcane trickster to have 2 lives because the illusion has to be taken care of somehow before anyone knows which is the real on

SO a arcane trickster at 10th level now gets 2 lives a free quicken spell every round, and his 'illusion' ignore an anti-illusion spell that comes online at a later level,


My final verdict If this is meant to replace the rogue, switch the spell list out from dusckblade to beguiler to better fit the theme, or just wizard/sorcerer spells so at least he can get 6th level spells.

The way you have illusionary double written as is makes an amazing capstone, move it to 20th level unless you plan on several weakening the ability.

if this is meant to be played along side the rogue then you have your work cut out for you in regards to not making the rogue completely unnecessary against the arcane trickster

[Jormengand]

Question: Is this class supposed to replace the rogue? IF so then ignore half of what I am about to say.

No, it's supposed to replace the Arcane Trickster, only be a base class.


The same scale of sneak attack dice combined with impromptu sneak attack and 6th level spells makes this class a bit too much

Perhaps, but the BaB means you can't get off anything as like as good a full-attack action.


Now you’ve gone and made a rogue a completely useless choice of a class. You got just as good or maybe better skills points ( since this is an int based class) better offense, not only can you give yourself dozens of way to get your sneak attack off now (swift invisibility springs to mind), but now you can sneak attack with some crazy awesome spells. Not to mention the sweet defenses you get with the duskblade spell list.

Hit points, skill points, BaB, Trapfinding, Evasion, Trap Sense, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge and your choice of five special abilities are not "Completely useless."


Why did you pick the duskblade list? (disregarding the fact that duskblades only get 5th level max and your arcane trickster gets 6th)The duskblade list is much more oriented towards fighting and in your face blast and damage dealing. While the name of this class is arcane trickster.. Id think the Beguiler spell list would be better or ya know just the wizard/sorcerer spell list.
I do not feel the duskblade spell list is in keeping with the theme of an arcane trickster, and no where as close as the beguiler list would be.

Beguiler is probably better, I guess.


The 10th level ability is waay too much, If an illusion actually has hit points and one must keep track of actual conditions, use class abilities like telekinetic grab OR the fact that it is allowed to cast spells.

"The illusory double cannot actually affect anyone or anything, and must remain within 60 feet of the arcane trickster."

It can't interact with the real world. Retroactive Illusion, the capstone, is more (but still not quite) like what you're thinking of.


let alone that it ignores true seeing a spell that counters illusions and comes online at 11th level, it ceases to be an illusion is in that semi-real state, which I think is a bit too much. the only way somebody is going to know which is the illusion is they literally have to kill it.

"The only way to find out which is real and which is fake is to touch them"

"If the arcane trickster or the illusion falls unconscious or dies, the illusion vanishes."


SO in effect at 10th level you’ve allowed the arcane trickster to have 2 lives because the illusion has to be taken care of somehow before anyone knows which is the real on

If the Arcane Trickster really doesn't want to attack anyone, disable traps or, you know, do anything, yeah...


SO a arcane trickster at 10th level now gets 2 lives a free quicken spell every round, and his 'illusion' ignore an anti-illusion spell that comes online at a later level,

Apart from the illusion ignoring True Seeing (PF Ninjas can do a greater invisibility on THEMSELVES that does this as a capstone), this is wrong.



My final verdict If this is meant to replace the rogue, switch the spell list out from dusckblade to beguiler to better fit the theme, or just wizard/sorcerer spells so at least he can get 6th level spells.

The way you have illusionary double written as is makes an amazing capstone, move it to 20th level unless you plan on several weakening the ability.

if this is meant to be played along side the rogue then you have your work cut out for you in regards to not making the rogue completely unnecessary against the arcane trickster

This is essentially entirely from reading the class wrong. Sorry, but it just doesn't work like that.

[ngilop]

The double can also use the arcane trickster's telekinetic grab ability and non-damaging spells a number of times equal to the number of uses the arcane trickster had left.

You say right here the illsuion can cast spells and use telekentic grab, so yeah it can disbale trap or at least 'disable' traps or cas spells, (fyi damage spells are the weakest type of spells so that limit is in no way hindering)

and a lot of the rogue abilities you list are easily replicated with spells, that unfortunately are in the under lvl 3 realm for the most part

and apthfidner shafted all non casting classes for capstones, but the ninja has an actual limit on the number of times they cna use theri capstone your illusion doubel has unlimited number of uses ( well not unlimted but i do not want todo the match to see how many 6 second periods there are in a day)

[Jormengand]

You say right here the illsuion can cast spells and use telekentic grab, so yeah it can disbale trap or at least 'disable' traps or cas spells, (fyi damage spells are the weakest type of spells so that limit is in no way hindering)
Yes, I do. I also say that it cannot actually affect the real world - it can use telekinetic grab to move itself, but it cannot actually affect the real world. It can cast spells, and the text clarifies that it cannot use damaging spells because it cannot affect the real world, but whatever spell it uses, it cannot affect the real world because the text says "The illusory double cannot actually affect anyone or anything."


and a lot of the rogue abilities you list are easily replicated with spells, that unfortunately are in the under lvl 3 realm for the most part
Yeah, and wizards, clerics, and druids can easily make any other class obsolete. First-level kobold psions, similarly, can make any other class obsolete.

Seriously, even if we're in the realms of low-OP, the Cleric can mimic the high hit points, BaB and strength of the Fighter with one spell.

We're talking about D&D 3.5, here. Casting classes can make non-casting classes obsolete if they really, really want to. I'm relying on the player not to be a jerk.


and apthfidner shafted all non casting classes for capstones, but the ninja has an actual limit on the number of times they cna use theri capstone your illusion doubel has unlimited number of uses ( well not unlimted but i do not want todo the match to see how many 6 second periods there are in a day)

Yeah, but the illusory double doesn't actually, y'know, do anything. Invisible ninjas can do things.

[Surrealialis]

Hi,

Jormengand. I looked up your base prestige class thread and wondered if you'd done a Master of many forms or Shifter from level 1 (Most likely not, since you're on Arcane trickster. While I love the druid class, my main love came from the idea that I could get to MoMF. And, besides the MoMF being very powerful, I didn't much care about superpower clerics/wizards/druids. So I made a 1-20 Shapeshifting based class called the Skinshifter, (and have recently been trying to make it 4e). Let me know what you think. PS. I'll make my own thread, but thought if you liked it you could make it part of your project. Also, How'd you make such a nice table? I couldn't so distilled the info as best I could

Skinshifter:
Prereq's:
Race: changeling, shifter,
Constitution 13+, Wis 13+

Game rule information
Abilities:
Constitution is important for the skinshifter as it not only determines his health and defenses but also determines the number of times he can use his skinshifting abilities and the strength of his forms.
Wisdom is equally important. It determines what kind of forms the shifter can take and also the abilities of the new form that he is able to take. Charisma and intelligence are also highly valued by a skinshifter for disguises and subterfuge. The Skinshifter is naturally curious and can find use for a variety of skills.
Alignment: any Chaotic

Hit die: d8

Class skills: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Monsters)

Skill points: (4+Int)*4.
4 + Int
Skinshifters are proficient with all natural weapons of the forms they choose or obtain through spell-like abilities. They are also proficient with simple weapons and small shields.

This Skinshifter has a BAB progression exactly the same as the base Monk class and their saves progress similarly but start at 1 instead of 2 -> therefore ending at +11 (level 20) instead of +12 for Will Reflex and Con

Level Special
1 SkinShift, Animal shape – small forms,
2 Spell-like abilities, Life force
3 Humanoid Shape, medium forms
4 Shifter's speech
5 Bonus Feat
6 Large Forms, Fast Shaping
7 Evershifting form, Tiny forms
8 Bonus Feat
9 Assume EX abilities
10 Immediate Shifting, Huge
11 Bonus Feat
12 Assume SU abilities
13 Improved Life Force,
14 Bonus Feat
15 Strengthened Form
16 Gargantuan
17 Bonus Feat
18 Bodily Manipulation
19 Fey Immortality
20 Bonus Feat, Colossal.


Skin Shift (ex): This ability depends on the race entering into the class.

Changeling: A changeling skin shifter gains a +2 bonus to Charisma due to his ability to alter his appearance. His skin hardens and grants him a +4 bonus to his natural armor. His ability to alter his physical appearance gives him camouflage (permanent) and he gains a +10 bonus to all hide checks. A changeling skin shifter adds the following to his class Skills: Disguise, bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, sense motive, gather information.

Shifter: The Shifter adds the extra shifter trait feat for free and gains the bonus to ability score for that trait as well. In addition the shifter has gained such a mastery over his lycanthropic heritage that his traits are now considered to be permanently applied. A changeling shifter adds Climb, Balance, Jump, Survival, Swim and Tumble to his class skills

A Skinshifter's shape ability (SU) is a supernatural ability, not a magical ability. Therefore it is not affected by dispel magic. It functions similiar to the Wild shape class ability except as noted here. The Shifter retains his own his own constitution score. Equipment does not magically meld, change shape or change size. It will break or become damaged if not removed before shifting. 'Wild' typed magical items do change shape along with the character. The shifter can change shapes a number of times equal to his Constitution modifier + his skinshifter character level. The shapes last for 1hr/level or until the shifter reverts to his natural form.

Life Force: A 2nd level shifter adds half again his constitution bonus (rounded down) to his hit points per level. This does not increase retroactively. (Example, for the second level of SS and every CL thereafter the SS will gain this bonus to hit points/level)
Spell-like abilities: Gains a total number of spell like ability usages equal to his wisdom modifier + his skinshifter level. His Caster level is equal to his wisdom score - 10. He can use the abilities while in a shape other than his natural shape. Each ability is useable as a move-action or standard action. They do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Spell like abilities are as follows:
Level 2: camouflage, claws of the bear, climb walls (self only), Longstrider
Level 3: Bite of the Wererat (humanoid), Body of the sun, Barkskin (self), Tree Shape
5: Bite of the Werewolf (humanoid), Spiderskin (self only), Meld into stone, Meld into wood
7: Bite of the Wereboar (humanoid), Essence of the Raptor, Gaseous Form
9: Bite of the Weretiger (humanoid), Stoneskin, Water's flow
11: Bite of the Werebear (humanoid), Wreath of Air (As gaseous form but fly speed of 100ft (perfect), no AoOp's)
Shifter's speech: A shifter can talk and communicate normally in any form.
Fast Shaping: A Skinshifter can transform as a move action.
Evershifting Form; The skinshifter can use his shape change abilities without returning to his natural shape.
Assume EX Abilities: The Skinshifter gains all the extraordinary abilities of a shape he assumes.
Immediate Shifting: A skinshifter can use his shape abilities as a free action, once per round, even if it is not his turn.
Assume SU Abilities: The Skinshifter gains all the supernatural abilities of a shape he assumes.
Improved Life Force: The shifter now adds double his constitution modifier to his hit point total for all consecutive levels. This replaces the bonus granted from Life Force.
Strengthened Form: The Shifter can add his wisdom modifier to his Hit Die when determining forms for his shape abilities.
Bodily manipulation: the skinshifter can replace either his dexterity or strength score with his constitution score at will, but only in his natural form.
Fey immortality: The skinshifter's type becomes fey, he no longer receives penalties for aging and does not die of old age.

Bonus Feats:

Choose at each point, 1 from the expanding list. These can only be taken as bonus feats.

LVL 5: Monstrous Humanoid and Magical Beast
LVL 8: Giant and Fey
LVL 11: Aberrations and Constructs
LVL 14: Plants and Elementals
LVL 17: Dragons and Outsiders
LVL 20: Any of the Above

[Blue_C.]

Yeah, but the illusory double doesn't actually, y'know, do anything. Invisible ninjas can do things.

I'm curious what it's doing there in that case. Is it meant to create flanking opportunities, since an enemy won't know which one is the real threat without actually touching the copy? Is it a sponge for attacks? I'm just curious as to your reasoning behind this ability.

[Krinmar]

First of all, i really like the idea of Base Prestige classes!
But i think in this case Arcane Trickster should have evasion or some magical analog (like oracle PrC).
I know in requirements Arcane Trickster dont have evasion as prerequisites, but you feel it in the air...
About spells:
I think better use Warmage/Beguiler spellcasting with list of spells from CAd, CSc, CM and lot of spells form Beguiler spell list...
Trickster means to be a versatile - have a lot of tricky and cheap ways of solution. Sorcerer spellcasting (IMHO) for Arcane Trickster is not so good.
If all i wrote higher will be counted... it will balance 1/2 BAB...:smallredface:
And what about casting in armor (light and others)?
I read twice but didnt find about it...:smalleek:

[Jormengand]

I'm curious what it's doing there in that case. Is it meant to create flanking opportunities, since an enemy won't know which one is the real threat without actually touching the copy? Is it a sponge for attacks? I'm just curious as to your reasoning behind this ability.

It's there for the same reason that any other illusion in existence is there. Apply imagination.


First of all, i really like the idea of Base Prestige classes!
But i think in this case Arcane Trickster should have evasion or some magical analog (like oracle PrC).
I know in requirements Arcane Trickster dont have evasion as prerequisites, but you feel it in the air...
About spells:
I think better use Warmage/Beguiler spellcasting with list of spells from CAd, CSc, CM and lot of spells form Beguiler spell list...
Trickster means to be a versatile - have a lot of tricky and cheap ways of solution. Sorcerer spellcasting (IMHO) for Arcane Trickster is not so good.
If all i wrote higher will be counted... it will balance 1/2 BAB...:smallredface:
And what about casting in armor (light and others)?
I read twice but didnt find about it...:smalleek:

I guess I could give it evasion, but... I dunno. I guess it fits with my idea of the class, so why not?

It... uh, has beguiler spellcasting.

And arcane tricksters cannot, and never could, cast while wearing armour.

[Blue_C.]

It's there for the same reason that any other illusion in existence is there. Apply imagination.

Since I can't actually read your mind, asking you what you were thinking is pretty much the only way to find out how you intended it to be used. I can indeed break the campaign with this ability just fine on my own, but to actually give feedback I would have liked to have known the direction you were going.

Your description of the ability is internally inconsistent. It can't actually affect anything, but it creates noise and heat? It can use some of the Arcane Trickster's abilities, but those abilities have no affect?

Aside from that weirdness, it's illusion-but-not status creates some odd rules calls. You say an alchemist fire that "hit" the copy would fly straight through, possibly to hit someone just behind the copy. Would they realize that something was up, or would they too continue to perceive the copy as real, even as they themselves were on fire? I assume that the Arcane trickster firing into a melee where his copy was wouldn't take the normal penalties for firing into melee, and his enemies would, but would his allies? Does any of that change at 20th level?

It sounds like you're creating a halfway state between a figment and a shadow conjuration, but in my opinion it would be a lot less complicated to simply pick one for the ability, or even pick one that applies at 10th and one that applied at 20th. As a supernatural ability, it would retain the inability to be dispelled either way.

Also, I assume only one can be in existence at once? You don't say that specifically, but the way you have Retroactive Illusion written makes that appear to be the case.

[Jormengand]

Your description of the ability is internally inconsistent. It can't actually affect anything, but it creates noise and heat? It can use some of the Arcane Trickster's abilities, but those abilities have no affect?

Yes, it creates noise and heat, or at least the illusion thereof, which doesn't affect anything. It can use some of the AT's abilities to move itself, but can't hurt anyone.


Aside from that weirdness, it's illusion-but-not status creates some odd rules calls. You say an alchemist fire that "hit" the copy would fly straight through, possibly to hit someone just behind the copy. Would they realize that something was up, or would they too continue to perceive the copy as real, even as they themselves were on fire?
The item disappears. It does not stop burning people. The item simply disappears.


I assume that the Arcane trickster firing into a melee where his copy was wouldn't take the normal penalties for firing into melee, and his enemies would, but would his allies? Does any of that change at 20th level?
People who know it's an illusion don't, people who don't do.



It sounds like you're creating a halfway state between a figment and a shadow conjuration, but in my opinion it would be a lot less complicated to simply pick one for the ability, or even pick one that applies at 10th and one that applied at 20th. As a supernatural ability, it would retain the inability to be dispelled either way.
I suppose.


Also, I assume only one can be in existence at once? You don't say that specifically, but the way you have Retroactive Illusion written makes that appear to be the case.

The arcane trickster may create "An illusory double." He may not create "Illusory doubles" or "Up to three illusory doubles."

[Krinmar]

I guess I could give it evasion, but... I dunno. I guess it fits with my idea of the class, so why not?

It... uh, has beguiler spellcasting.

And arcane tricksters cannot, and never could, cast while wearing armour.

You may give Evasion later then Rogue - 6-8lvl I think.:smallredface:
Em-m-m in your tables he has sorcerer/bardish spellcasting system - limited known spell, but I suggest you to pick Warmage/Beguiler spellcasting system - list of spell he instantly knows with very roguish theme, like Instant Locksmith, Instant Search, Graves Strike, Nerveskitter etc.
Your Arcane Trickster has light armor proficiency but he cant cast while wearing armor... does it missprint or...?:smallconfused:

[Jormengand]

You may give Evasion later then Rogue - 6-8lvl I think.:smallredface:

Em-m-m in your tables he has sorcerer/bardish spellcasting system - limited known spell, but I suggest you to pick Warmage/Beguiler spellcasting system - list of spell he instantly knows with very roguish theme, like Instant Locksmith, Instant Search, Graves Strike, Nerveskitter etc.

Your Arcane Trickster has light armor proficiency but he cant cast while wearing armor... does it missprint or...?:smallconfused:
I gave it to him at third, because third was looking a little lonely.

Ohh, I thought you were talking about the actual spell list. Well, I don't really want to have to write a complete new list just so they can know all the spells from it, but if there's any list that would work for that... well, I don't know.

Yeah, he's proficient in the same things as rogues. He still takes ASF for his light armour.

[Krinmar]

I gave it to him at third, because third was looking a little lonely.

Ohh, I thought you were talking about the actual spell list. Well, I don't really want to have to write a complete new list just so they can know all the spells from it, but if there's any list that would work for that... well, I don't know.

Yeah, he's proficient in the same things as rogues. He still takes ASF for his light armour.

If u want, I can make a list of possible spells for him...:smallredface:

[Jormengand]

If u want, I can make a list of possible spells for him...:smallredface:

That'd be good, sure. But remember that this is kinda meant to be a core prestige class, so if you'd be so kind as to make him playable in core, that'd be nice.

[Krinmar]

That'd be good, sure. But remember that this is kinda meant to be a core prestige class, so if you'd be so kind as to make him playable in core, that'd be nice.

Look this:smallredface:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-Ug59-1saqOTkdESEJVTE1pS3M/edit?usp=sharing

[Jormengand]

Look this:smallredface:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-Ug59-1saqOTkdESEJVTE1pS3M/edit?usp=sharing

Perfect, thanks.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I may get some flak for this, but I really feel as though this deserves Trapfinding. I know that would cause it to trample on the rogue's feet a little more, but I am confident that the better BAB, better HD, and UMD as a class skill will offer a solid alternative (well, also among the unique rogue assets and the massive skill point gap).

Two things on the spell list: first off, what is Melf's Unicorn Arrow; secondly the Bigby's X Hand really feel out of place because they are very obtuse/flashy spells on what is mostly a very stealthy/roguey looking list.

[Krinmar]

I may get some flak for this, but I really feel as though this deserves Trapfinding. I know that would cause it to trample on the rogue's feet a little more, but I am confident that the better BAB, better HD, and UMD as a class skill will offer a solid alternative (well, also among the unique rogue assets and the massive skill point gap).

Two things on the spell list: first off, what is Melf's Unicorn Arrow; secondly the Bigby's X Hand really feel out of place because they are very obtuse/flashy spells on what is mostly a very stealthy/roguey looking list.

I've picked Melf's Unicorn Arrow and Bigby's X Hand because they continue the idea of Telekinetical Tricks that Jormengand started.
It's "Force" answer of Arcane Trickster in battle. It's not Mailman's orbs, and not Batman's crowd control spells - It's elegant force manupulations, sometimes a little silly, sometimes very useful, sometimes very crucial.
Also "Force" spells mostly are almost invisible, so it's look like a "trick"...:smallbiggrin: