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View Full Version : Player Help I am a God.......well maybe!



Guanase
2014-02-23, 01:26 AM
So my DM has sent us on a quest to find as many villagers as we can. We are being chased by the BBEG and his goal is to kill all of the villagers and towns people as she can to become a God. I have talked all members of my party to gather them all in one general location in the largest city. I already got a focusing crystal i'm also setting up traps in all the buildings in the town. I told my team that they will be used against the BBEG. So far we've gathered 25,000 people to the town. They are all placed in the Town square. I have placed large canisters of oil The streets will be filled with the oil. I will then raise focusing crystal and light the oil on fire. By the time I do this we should have around 35,000 people in the square. I read somewhere that doing this can get you to ascend so behind my teams back I'm going to become a God. I don't even think the DM knows this is possible hell I don't even know if this will work. Any one have any advice or can any one confirm this.

Living_Dead_Guy
2014-02-23, 01:35 AM
Well if this is the BBEG's own tactic to become a god then it should work for you as well. Just remember that killing the party will mean the end of the campaign, this may leave the other players and DM...... unhappy. If you don't kill the players then you will start to overshadow the other players, you might end up having to reroll.

In my own campaigns however I wouldn't allow it. A first level psychopath could pay low level wizards (through a contract that guarantees them lets say 80% of the income generated) to create the largest known carnival, set up bombs, then play the ring master. Once everyone is gathered you give them a smile and boom your a god.

Guanase
2014-02-23, 01:38 AM
My plan is to Reroll a cleric under my god. Also I will not be killing my party and the god I create will be neutral.

Guanase
2014-02-23, 02:09 AM
That's understandable at level 1 not allowing it but we are in the late teens. The DM is been dragging this campaign on for a long time I'm actually more or less looking for a way to end. It has been fun but it should of came to an end a long time ago. And if anything will have a homebrew deity to use.

Mordokai
2014-02-23, 02:45 AM
My plan is to Reroll a cleric under my god. Also I will not be killing my party and the god I create will be neutral.

I have no idea if your idea would work, I'll leave that to clarify to forumers more savvy than myself.

But how in the blackest depths of Gehenna can you become a neutral god by performing a mass murder of innocents?

Guanase
2014-02-23, 02:54 AM
Because it's not like I'm completely bad. Yeah it's a screwed up way to ascend but it's my only option to stop the BBEG and surprise my group at the same time sacrifice many for the peace of all. That's fairly neutral in my eyes.

The Oni
2014-02-23, 03:09 AM
So you'll become Desperatio, the God of Limit Breaks, 11th Hour Super Powers and The Ends Justifying The Means. Your holy symbol will be a big red button with a nuclear launch symbol. Your clerics will probably be some of the scariest clergy in all of existence, called upon in times of great need and shunned at every other time ever.

Guanase
2014-02-23, 03:12 AM
I'd like that very much

Thrudd
2014-02-23, 03:17 AM
I think you will end up being an evil deity who is in denial. The credo of your followers is "No, really, I'm neutral!". The clerics all wear grey to prove it.
The holy book of Neutral lays out tenets which establish the neutrality of murdering innocents in the pursuit of power, as long as "you're not really that bad of a guy".

The Oni
2014-02-23, 03:19 AM
You're welcome. Your "heralds" should all be monstrously destructive creatures, so dangerous that they'd only be unleashed in case of even more imminent destruction. In fact, if the DM allows this ascension, you should request that the Tarrasque be your herald, since he's generally considered the equivalent of Godzilla in D&D settings.

And yeah, a general philosophy of being "above good and evil" might fit well for this hypothetical apotheosis. Your church should actually reject or at least sort of disdain the alignment system, despite the fact that many of your clerics have a tendency to ping south of neutral.

Khedrac
2014-02-23, 03:21 AM
How certain are you that the BBEG is just killing loads of people to become a god? It seems far too simple if that is all it is.

I would predict that there is a good chance that the DM will rule (and may already have in place) that the BBEG has done/is doing lots of rituals etc. to gather the power of all the sacrificed people to fuel his/her/its ascension.

If this is the case then, at best you will just become a mass-murderer, and at worst you will help fuel the BBEG's ascension.

What you are suggestion actually had a historical RL parallel - Cargo Cults. Some of the natives of more remote pacific islands saw strangers come in and set up cleared strips of land with the result that flying things brought gifts from the heavens, so they tried setting up replicating them to see if they could attract more gifts. Needless to say, transport plans don't land on runways without a lot more planning than that...
It sounds to me like you are effectively trying to replicate what the BBEG is doing without knowing what is actually happening - just what the visible part are.

Guanase
2014-02-23, 03:38 AM
I'm almost positively sure this is what the DM is doing. I'm sort of the one that pushed towards the bad guy ascending. It was not my intention to do this at first but as I have gotten bored playing this campaign I intend to end it soon my group agrees it's run it's natural course. And as I stated before you have to campaign ends will have a New DEity for homebrew. Also I'm really liking the whole chaotic neutral properties of this new god I'm going to be.

Mordokai
2014-02-23, 03:39 AM
Because it's not like I'm completely bad. Yeah it's a screwed up way to ascend but it's my only option to stop the BBEG and surprise my group at the same time sacrifice many for the peace of all. That's fairly neutral in my eyes.

The lesser of two evils is still evil. In this case, very much so.

Your character can delude him/herself that it's not evil. In fact, I can totally see that happening. Hell, it's hell of an interesting concept to explore.

But I seriously hope that you, the player, doesn't really believe that. Because if you do, is there any wonder humanity is as screwed as we are?

Guanase
2014-02-23, 03:45 AM
Throughout history's thousands of people of been sacrificed for the greater good no more different than what I'm doing on this character except I become a god for doing it. If I become a God who rallies more towards helping people neutrally that I'm not An evil god. I sacrificed 35,000 people to become a god and stop another person from essentially becoming a God and enslaving the entire world. I understand that I would be more towards chaotic neutral. Also as previously stated the fact that as a deity above good and evil would make more sense also. As a person in RLI realized that this would be an evil act. But only because it would be viewed is a perception of humans as we are. Think of the millions of people who will be saved because of the act.

Mordokai
2014-02-23, 03:49 AM
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

That's all I have to say on the subject. And with that, I rescind myself from the further debate, less we go off topic even further.

Brookshw
2014-02-23, 05:22 AM
Personally I'm with the Evil crowd. Also skeptical it'll work, I can't think of any rules justification for it.

Something else to mention, you're doing this behind the parties back. Be careful with that.

AuraTwilight
2014-02-23, 05:54 AM
Generally, not being the bad guy means having the moral high ground. That means not doing exactly what the bad guy is doing in order to win an arms race.

You are probably intended by your GM to either stop the ascension from taking place at all, or to exploit some sort of weakness that will undermine the omnipotence they're after.

I highly doubt becoming a God via genocide is the only way your GM intends for you to win, and if there is another way, you should probably pursue it for the sake of your own character's safety and the fun of your other players.

Doorhandle
2014-02-23, 06:40 AM
So my DM has sent us on a quest to find as many villagers as we can. We are being chased by the BBEG and his goal is to kill all of the villagers and towns people as she can to become a God. I have talked all members of my party to gather them all in one general location in the largest city. I already got a focusing crystal i'm also setting up traps in all the buildings in the town. I told my team that they will be used against the BBEG. So far we've gathered 25,000 people to the town. They are all placed in the Town square. I have placed large canisters of oil The streets will be filled with the oil. I will then raise focusing crystal and light the oil on fire. By the time I do this we should have around 35,000 people in the square. I read somewhere that doing this can get you to ascend so behind my teams back I'm going to become a God. I don't even think the DM knows this is possible hell I don't even know if this will work. Any one have any advice or can any one confirm this.

Hmmm... I'm worried about the plot twist where committing this massacre doesn't actually make you a god at all, and the BBEG is just a delusional fanatic.

Still go for it though. Would make a great story. :smallbiggrin:

Mastikator
2014-02-23, 07:59 AM
[snip] so behind my teams back I'm going to become a God. I don't even think the DM knows this is possible hell I don't even know if this will work. Any one have any advice or can any one confirm this.

The person you have to ask if the DM, not anyone here. Only the DM can decide (yes decide) if this would work.

Though if I was your DM I'd let your character go down in history as a genocidal monster.

Mnemnosyne
2014-02-23, 08:29 AM
Just so you know, there is absolutely no RAW way to become a god to my knowledge. The rules simply do not cover it, it happens only via DM fiat and Plot Magic. Therefore, if you're trying to surprise your DM with this, it has a decent chance of him just looking at you weird and it just doesn't work, or has effects completely different to what you intend.

TriForce
2014-02-23, 09:33 AM
The lesser of two evils is still evil. In this case, very much so.

Your character can delude him/herself that it's not evil. In fact, I can totally see that happening. Hell, it's hell of an interesting concept to explore.

But I seriously hope that you, the player, doesn't really believe that. Because if you do, is there any wonder humanity is as screwed as we are?

im in full agreement here.

sacrifising 35000 unwilling lives for ANY reason is evil. its literally impossible to become a good or neutral god if THATS the way of ascension used, no matter why you do it, no matter what you plan on doing as a god, the lives and souls of the ones you murdered for your own power (yes, you are doing this for yourself, since its not even a last resort, and you tricked the people into thinking you were going to save them) make it impossible for the resulting god to be anything less then Evil

Red Fel
2014-02-23, 10:14 AM
Going to agree with several points.

1. A mass sacrifice of innocents is indisputably Evil by most RPG terms, regardless of the reason. If your character does become a god, it will be an Evil god.

2. That's assuming this works. You keep assuming that "all the BBEG is doing is killing lots of people, so it should work for me too." We have no evidence that the BBEG hasn't done something else, like possess a mystic relic that harnesses the souls of those sacrificed in his name, or anoint himself in profane oils that draw in the recently deceased, or coat his weapons and armor with a metal that magnifies the despairs of the dying, or something. If you haven't followed the same steps, you have no expectation of success.

3. Even if it should work, the DM has the ability to say that it doesn't, for any number of reasons. Apotheosis is an undefined quantity in many games, and within the DM's discretion to grant. So all that work could still be for nothing.

As a rule, a plan that states "I'm going to kill a whole big bunch of people and that will fix everything ever" is (1) Evil, and (2) poorly thought out. Your DM is unlikely to grant your request unless you do it in a particularly epic and awesome way, and frankly, your description suggests your method will be to simply say, "Now I light a bonfire and the people all die and I become a god." And as a DM, I would laugh, and respond, "No, you become wanted by every government on the continent for unjustifiable mass-murder. Asmodeus can't wait to meet you in person. He has some very special things he wants to do to you."

Lord Torath
2014-02-24, 12:16 PM
I'm almost positively sure this is what the DM is doing. I'm sort of the one that pushed towards the bad guy ascending. It was not my intention to do this at first but as I have gotten bored playing this campaign I intend to end it soon my group agrees it's run it's natural course. And as I stated before you have to campaign ends will have a New DEity for homebrew. Also I'm really liking the whole chaotic neutral properties of this new god I'm going to be.My first recommendation would be to talk to the DM about feeling bored, before you try to trash his campaign.

Also, is there a semi-colon between "...end it soon" and "my group agrees..."? Or should it be "...end it as soon as my group agrees..." Or something else entirely? Either way, I'd suggest communication with the DM (and the rest of the group) before you start breaking things.

It sounds like the DM is building up to the finale anyway. Can you tough it out a bit longer?

Plus, see everyone else's posts about this being undeniably evil.

Drogorn
2014-02-24, 01:37 PM
I like it, but you'll need to discuss it with the GM. Your character could become the neutral evil god of Desperate Measures with Fire, Destruction, and Trickery as his domains.

Or something similar.

Dorian Gray
2014-02-24, 09:16 PM
I must ask- is there any other way you could potentially stop the BBEG? Like, say, shoving several feet of enchanted carbonized steel through his skull? I've been told that that's the accepted method. What I'm trying to say is, if there is any, any, any! other option, going through with what you're planning is Evil. Furthermore, killing a bunch of people to stop someone from killing an equal number of people is... also Evil. Honestly, why can't you just have the people flee into the countryside?
What I'm trying to say, is that while it could be awesome for you to go through this, there is No. Possible. Way. that you would be Chaotic Neutral. You might be Lawful Evil ("I considered the possible outcomes, and made an appropriate trade-off"), Neutral Evil ("I did what I had to, no matter how terrible it was"), or Chaotic Evil ("I solve problems... my way!"), but never anything anywhere close to Neutral on the Good-Evil axis.

Trickquestion
2014-02-24, 11:15 PM
Dude, you're playing Sarevok. You're evil, and I'm not entirely sure your mass sacrifice plan is fully based in reality. Just saying.

rmnimoc
2014-02-25, 12:52 AM
I'm pretty sure your BBEG has a bit more to the plan than just killing them. That being said however....

I advocate killing them. I understand this sounds horrible, and if I were in the situation I probably couldn't live with myself afterwords, but you have to do what you have to do. I strongly suggest if you do go do this, you die with them. Make it your last effort to save the world, and you very well might be a martyr, not a murderer.

Also leave all of your WBL to a bard so he can spin your tale in the best possible light. You may not be a god, but you just might be a saint.

(Please note that under no circumstances am I suggesting or advocating such a solution in real life. If such a solution does occur in real life, I strongly suggest contacting your local authorities and/or Chuck Norris.)

Edit: I also agree that you should discuss this with the DM beforehand.

tahu88810
2014-02-25, 12:55 AM
You should definitely privately discuss this with your DM beforehand.
Like without a doubt. 100% you should discuss this beforehand.

GoblinArchmage
2014-02-25, 01:21 AM
Throughout history's thousands of people of been sacrificed for the greater good no more different than what I'm doing on this character except I become a god for doing it. If I become a God who rallies more towards helping people neutrally that I'm not An evil god. I sacrificed 35,000 people to become a god and stop another person from essentially becoming a God and enslaving the entire world. I understand that I would be more towards chaotic neutral. Also as previously stated the fact that as a deity above good and evil would make more sense also. As a person in RLI realized that this would be an evil act. But only because it would be viewed is a perception of humans as we are. Think of the millions of people who will be saved because of the act.

"Genocide is totally acceptable if it is for the greater good! I'm not evil; I'm a good guy, just like all of the mass murderers throughout history."

rmnimoc
2014-02-25, 01:35 AM
"Genocide is totally acceptable if it is for the greater good! I'm not a psychopath; I'm a good guy, just like all of the mass murderers throughout history."

That is totally not fair. It's more like:

"These townspeople will die one way or the other, this way may be horribly inhumane and painful, but by doing this I can potentially save the world. Also, knowing what I know of BBEGs, death by fire is probably a step up from how they would have gone."

You seem to be implying that those people are totally safe until he kills them, when in reality it is totally possible that the PCs will die, and the poor peasants will have their soul torn out and eaten or whatever it takes to accend. Also, you seem to forget the fact that if the BBEG kills them all, he gets to be a god. I'm pretty sure BBEG will kill far more than 35,000 people if he becomes a god.

I'm not saying it isn't horribly evil, but Knight Templars (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar), Necessary Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NecessarilyEvil), Totalitarian Utilitarian (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TotalitarianUtilitarian), and "I did what I had to do (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IDidWhatIHadToDo)" are tropes for a reason.

Edit: I meant ascend, not accend, but the unintentional typo is too fitting to remove.

Mastikator
2014-02-25, 01:45 AM
Thing is, if it's even remotely possible to stop the BBEG without murdering 35 thousand people then it's no longer a necessary evil, then it's a story about two competing villains.
There's never just one way to solve a problem.

rmnimoc
2014-02-25, 02:40 AM
Thing is, if it's even remotely possible to stop the BBEG without murdering 35 thousand people then it's no longer a necessary evil, then it's a story about two competing villains.
There's never just one way to solve a problem.

Let me clarify my views on this a bit.
I'm going off the assumption that there is a 50% chance of failure (that is the rough failure rate of such last stands in games I've been a part of).
I'm also assuming the BBEG will be responsible for a minimum of 235,000 deaths should be accomplish his goal (That one is more or less a random number (including the initial 35,000)). I'm also assuming a 25% failure rate of the OP's plan (that killing the 35,000 does absolutely no good). The formula I'm using is the expected value formula.

E[Lives saved by standing and fighting and not doing what the OP has planned]=(-235,000*.50)+(235,000*.50)=0 expected value.

E[Lives saved by Op's plan]=(-235,000*.25)+(200,000*.75)=91,250 expected value.
0 vs 91250
The OP's plan has an expected value of 91,250 more lives saved than the party standing and fighting (assuming a 50% failure rate on the last stand and a 25% failure rate of his plan).
On average, the OP's plan will save more lives than the parties plan (even without him becoming a god and possibly doing good to make up for it).

In my mind, that means that using the OP's plan is superior to not using it, though that may change depending on the lives endangered and the chances of success.

Note: For some reason I can't help but feel like I messed up that formula somehow, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
Fixed, I accidentally had some numbers swapped.

Gavran
2014-02-25, 03:46 AM
Your assumptions are completely baseless, though? That's sort of a problem. I'm a bit utilitarian myself, and I could agree with killing 35,000 to save 35,001. But that's not the information we have. In fact, all probabilities point toward this being less likely to be the optimal solution. Since massacre doesn't usually grant divinity. It's practically a given that the BBEG has some kind of ritual or artifact that's part of the process.

That said, this isn't real life anyway. Do it because it's the most interesting narrative. Either your DM will have planned it, and there you go, he'll think it was a cool idea and go along with it and there you go, or your character will fail and it'll be the most memorable tragedy your gaming group has ever had. Do it. :)

Avigor
2014-02-25, 04:07 AM
So you'll become Desperatio, the God of Limit Breaks, 11th Hour Super Powers and The Ends Justifying The Means. Your holy symbol will be a big red button with a nuclear launch symbol. Your clerics will probably be some of the scariest clergy in all of existence, called upon in times of great need and shunned at every other time ever.

The god of the Godzilla Threshold... I like that...

Even if I'll agree with the doubters that this is what the OP will become.

rmnimoc
2014-02-25, 04:17 AM
My assumptions aren't baseless (so the number evil god guy kills kind of is, but everything else has a base of some sort).

If a ritual is part of the process, then guess what? You just foiled his plans. And the artifact thing was thrown into the 25% chance the killing was in vain.
Also, I explicitly didn't factor in any actions the God-Player would take after the fact if he actually got divinity, or even whether or not the OP would get divinity.

As I said, those numbers are the assumptions in my head. I'm willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt here, and assuming he has at least a basic idea of what he is doing when he said he would be neutral, and assuming it balances out.



I was also doing that as a counter-point to
Thing is, if it's even remotely possible to stop the BBEG without murdering 35 thousand people then it's no longer a necessary evil, then it's a story about two competing villains.
There's never just one way to solve a problem.

Showing that even if there are instances where it would still be a necessary evil.

Gavran
2014-02-25, 04:31 AM
Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. By "baseless" I didn't mean you didn't put thought into them, I mean there is no data to reliably base them on. The 235k you grant is baseless, but really you're being generous there. The BBEG's intentions are clearly quite bad. I refer to the 50% and 25%. We know nothing of the party or BBEG's combat prowess or of his vulnerabilities. It is entirely plausible that he could be stopped by simple combat. It is entirely plausible that his ritual/artifact doesn't actually require he does the killing himself, merely that he is there to reap the benefits. It is entirely plausible that he has to trick someone else into doing it to prove his worth to some evil god who will then grant him ascension. This is way too important a decision to make without more data, and there are absolutely ways to get more data. You don't blindly sacrifice 35k, you do it when you're sure it's the best option. You or I can assign fuzzy probabilities but you don't make important decisions based on fuzzy probabilities.

rmnimoc
2014-02-25, 04:45 AM
Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. By "baseless" I didn't mean you didn't put thought into them, I mean there is no data to reliably base them on. The 235k you grant is baseless, but really you're being generous there. The BBEG's intentions are clearly quite bad. I refer to the 50% and 25%. We know nothing of the party or BBEG's combat prowess or of his vulnerabilities. It is entirely plausible that he could be stopped by simple combat. It is entirely plausible that his ritual/artifact doesn't actually require he does the killing himself, merely that he is there to reap the benefits. It is entirely plausible that he has to trick someone else into doing it to prove his worth to some evil god who will then grant him ascension. This is way too important a decision to make without more data, and there are absolutely ways to get more data. You don't blindly sacrifice 35k, you do it when you're sure it's the best option. You or I can assign fuzzy probabilities but you don't make important decisions based on fuzzy probabilities.

I made my assumptions based on my own experiences and sessions, and how the OP made it sound in his posts. It is entirely possible that the BBEG's ascension requires him to trick someone into killing them, just as it is entirely possible the artifact doesn't require him to kill them. I'm not going to suggest gambling the fate of the earth on the unlikely (in my mind) chances that this is the case. I agree that such things shouldn't be based on fuzzy probabilities, but fuzzy probablilities are all we have in this situation. Plus, this is all based off the little data I have, if the OP cares to clarify a bit more, that suggestion may change. Until more data becomes apparent/relevant though, my suggestion stands.

Dorian Gray
2014-02-25, 05:14 PM
Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. By "baseless" I didn't mean you didn't put thought into them, I mean there is no data to reliably base them on. The 235k you grant is baseless, but really you're being generous there. The BBEG's intentions are clearly quite bad. I refer to the 50% and 25%. We know nothing of the party or BBEG's combat prowess or of his vulnerabilities. It is entirely plausible that he could be stopped by simple combat. It is entirely plausible that his ritual/artifact doesn't actually require he does the killing himself, merely that he is there to reap the benefits. It is entirely plausible that he has to trick someone else into doing it to prove his worth to some evil god who will then grant him ascension. This is way too important a decision to make without more data, and there are absolutely ways to get more data. You don't blindly sacrifice 35k, you do it when you're sure it's the best option. You or I can assign fuzzy probabilities but you don't make important decisions based on fuzzy probabilities.

Also, given that the OP felt that he needed to gather everyone together and kill them in one big group to ascend, why couldn't he just foil the BBEG by, say, telling everyone to run in different directions? Gathering together 35,000 people, in the wilderness, without any modern technology, when they are trying to avoid notice is nigh-impossible.
In any case, even if you stop the extremely evil BBEG, you're still the guy who killed the population of Lichtenstein to become a god. That's the sort of thing which causes permanently tainted soil, ever-present dark clouds, and a barren landscape. Killing a bunch of people to become a god isn't in any splatbooks, but the Book of Vile Darkness does have information on permanent effects of evil, and mass killings and the birth of less-than-good gods are both classified as

DARKNESS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN BEFORE
Regardless of your motives, killing everyone in George Town qualifies as more evil than letting an evil god walk on the material plane.

MonochromeTiger
2014-02-25, 06:16 PM
Also, given that the OP felt that he needed to gather everyone together and kill them in one big group to ascend, why couldn't he just foil the BBEG by, say, telling everyone to run in different directions? Gathering together 35,000 people, in the wilderness, without any modern technology, when they are trying to avoid notice is nigh-impossible.
In any case, even if you stop the extremely evil BBEG, you're still the guy who killed the population of Lichtenstein to become a god. That's the sort of thing which causes permanently tainted soil, ever-present dark clouds, and a barren landscape. Killing a bunch of people to become a god isn't in any splatbooks, but the Book of Vile Darkness does have information on permanent effects of evil, and mass killings and the birth of less-than-good gods are both classified as

not to mention the fact that if all the BBEG really needs to ascend is to kill a certain number of people and you just killed all of them in the local area they could simply go to the next nearest large populated area leaving you to take any potential blame for a ritual you didn't check into or research beforehand.

the first post said they were killing everyone they can not gathering them all up to kill at once, if you follow that then they don't need to kill all the targets at the same time and that throws the entire means of becoming a deity into question. if the BBEG isn't worried about killing them all at once then there's a reason for that, if there's a reason for that then it's almost certainly an artifact or ritual the players didn't find out about otherwise every sufficiently powerful creature that goes on a killing spree would be a god.

the most absurd thing about this is it's being thrown in as somehow being the only good way to stop the threat when if you look at the evidence given it will, at best, inconvenience them for a brief time while they find somewhere else to massacre people or at worst feed right into whatever unseen magic they're using to actually become a deity off of this, the players would get more result with less risk by either moving people away from the BBEG's path or simply fighting the BBEG and being done with it.



Regardless of your motives, killing everyone in George Town qualifies as more evil than letting an evil god walk on the material plane.

this is even more true in settings with multiple gods, your BBEG just became a god by killing a bunch of people? congratulations they're now a deity with no worshipers of their own yet trying to play on the same level as a bunch of deities they just angered with their power grab/massacre who have been around MUCH longer.

and the "the townspeople will die anyway" excuse? really? I mean I love playing evil and I can tell when there's faulty logic in an attempt to call something neutral. yes they'll die anyway, likely of old age if you just kill the BBEG, or disease, or even monsters aside from the BBEG, every single one of them is likely to die at some point but to actively say that justifies killing them all now so you can get a power boost for a fight and then spend your time basking in the result of that power boost as a god while everyone you just killed gets nothing? that is some weak rationalizing.

rmnimoc
2014-02-25, 07:21 PM
1. not to mention the fact that if all the BBEG really needs to ascend is to kill a certain number of people and you just killed all of them in the local area they could simply go to the next nearest large populated area leaving you to take any potential blame for a ritual you didn't check into or research beforehand.

the first post said they were killing everyone they can not gathering them all up to kill at once, if you follow that then they don't need to kill all the targets at the same time and that throws the entire means of becoming a deity into question. if the BBEG isn't worried about killing them all at once then there's a reason for that, if there's a reason for that then it's almost certainly an artifact or ritual the players didn't find out about otherwise every sufficiently powerful creature that goes on a killing spree would be a god.

the most absurd thing about this is it's being thrown in as somehow being the only good way to stop the threat when if you look at the evidence given it will, at best, inconvenience them for a brief time while they find somewhere else to massacre people or at worst feed right into whatever unseen magic they're using to actually become a deity off of this, the players would get more result with less risk by either moving people away from the BBEG's path or simply fighting the BBEG and being done with it.



2. this is even more true in settings with multiple gods, your BBEG just became a god by killing a bunch of people? congratulations they're now a deity with no worshipers of their own yet trying to play on the same level as a bunch of deities they just angered with their power grab/massacre who have been around MUCH longer.

3. and the "the townspeople will die anyway" excuse? really? I mean I love playing evil and I can tell when there's faulty logic in an attempt to call something neutral. yes they'll die anyway, likely of old age if you just kill the BBEG, or disease, or even monsters aside from the BBEG, every single one of them is likely to die at some point but to actively say that justifies killing them all now so you can get a power boost for a fight and then spend your time basking in the result of that power boost as a god while everyone you just killed gets nothing? that is some weak rationalizing.

1. The OP seems to think it will stop him, and I'm willing to put some measure of faith in the fact the OP might know more about his campaign than us.

2. Do you happen to know the exact setting the OP is using, and the divine politics of the setting? It is entirely possible that adding this extra evil god will leave everything FUBAR. We don't even know who/what the other gods (however many there are) are, much less that they can effortlessly stop the new guy.

3. Yeah. Really. But if you actually paid attention to it I wasn't talking about dying in a week, or a month, or a year. I'm talking about them dying now, and their deaths potentially taking the world with them. To be fair though, the OP is totally capable of rezzing them if he becomes a god*, and I never said it was a totally great arguement. I was saying it was just a better way to phrase the OPs "Throughout history's thousands of people of been sacrificed for the greater good no more different than what I'm doing on this character except I become a god for doing it. If I become a God who rallies more towards helping people neutrally that I'm not An evil god. I sacrificed 35,000 people to become a god and stop another person from essentially becoming a God and enslaving the entire world. I understand that I would be more towards chaotic neutral. Also as previously stated the fact that as a deity above good and evil would make more sense also. As a person in RLI realized that this would be an evil act. But only because it would be viewed is a perception of humans as we are. Think of the millions of people who will be saved because of the act. " than "Genocide is totally acceptable if it is for the greater good! I'm not evil; I'm a good guy, just like all of the mass murderers throughout history.".


*At some point is the possible future yet to be determined.

Vindcara
2014-02-25, 07:26 PM
I already got a focusing crystal i'm also setting up traps in all the buildings in the town.

what is this "focusing crystal"? is it just another way to kill the people or does it actually do something els?

now what most of the others are saying is probably true, you would probably be very hard pressed to convince your dm your god would be neutral. however if your god does end up evil you could have him act/pretend/beleave that he is actually neutral. if the god and that gods church says that it is neutral then even if it acts very evil you could still end up with a neutral cleric of said church.

next you have to ask yourself what kind of dm do you have? if your dm is very easy going and you think he will find it funny then i would say just dont tell him just for the hilarity of it. otherwise you should make sure you talk to your dm about it, he may be very upset if you derail his campaign that much, he may also love the idea and plot with you:smallwink:

MonochromeTiger
2014-02-25, 08:09 PM
1. The OP seems to think it will stop him, and I'm willing to put some measure of faith in the fact the OP might know more about his campaign than us.

the OP also said they don't know if it will work or if the DM will even allow it and that they haven't asked to be sure or consulted with their group, two things that would give some indication of if it's even valid or if he is overreaching. and overreaching is a distinct possibility when you don't bother checking with a DM before trying something that isn't in the rules and hasn't been proven as possible for you.

I have no doubt they know more about the campaign than us but they've also made it clear they don't have all the details behind the BBEG's plan and are just attempting something that looks like it will work.



2. Do you happen to know the exact setting the OP is using, and the divine politics of the setting? It is entirely possible that adding this extra evil god will leave everything FUBAR. We don't even know who/what the other gods (however many there are) are, much less that they can effortlessly stop the new guy.

ok, turning that back around on you, do you happen to know the exact setting the OP is using and the divine politics of the setting? it is entirely possible that the worst that happens is evil alignments get another lesser god to worship, meanwhile killing the townspeople themselves GUARANTEES that no matter how it all winds up there's that many more people in the body count.



3. Yeah. Really. But if you actually paid attention to it I wasn't talking about dying in a week, or a month, or a year. I'm talking about them dying now, and their deaths potentially taking the world with them.

which doesn't happen if the party actually bothers to kill the BBEG before they go in and kill the people oh so kindly corralled in a townsquare by the OP's group. you're basing the defense of the actions as somehow neutral on the basis that no matter what the players do all those people will die, either by the BBEG killing them or by this power grab by the OP's character. meanwhile if they deal with the threat instead of trying to steal its goal suddenly there's no BBEG to kill the helpless people..amazing.



To be fair though, the OP is totally capable of rezzing them if he becomes a god*, and I never said it was a totally great arguement. I was saying it was just a better way to phrase the OPs "Throughout history's thousands of people of been sacrificed for the greater good no more different than what I'm doing on this character except I become a god for doing it. If I become a God who rallies more towards helping people neutrally that I'm not An evil god. I sacrificed 35,000 people to become a god and stop another person from essentially becoming a God and enslaving the entire world. I understand that I would be more towards chaotic neutral. Also as previously stated the fact that as a deity above good and evil would make more sense also. As a person in RLI realized that this would be an evil act. But only because it would be viewed is a perception of humans as we are. Think of the millions of people who will be saved because of the act. " than "Genocide is totally acceptable if it is for the greater good! I'm not evil; I'm a good guy, just like all of the mass murderers throughout history.".


*At some point is the possible future yet to be determined.

and I understand that, the issue is that even when the attempt is made it STILL sounds like a "greater good" justification by a mass murderer. it's still killing thousands in an exceedingly risky attempt to steal potential godhood from someone else who's trying to kill those exact same thousands. it's still saying the ends justify the means when the means aren't even guaranteed to REACH the ends. it's personally assuring the death of thousands in the hope it does something more than delay an enemy's rise to power and the slim almost abysmal chance that you can turn around and say "oh hey guys sorry about that I'm now going to bring every person I killed back to life, also you get a complimentary bouquet of 'sorry I killed you, it seemed like a good idea at the time' flowers".

veti
2014-02-25, 11:05 PM
How certain are you that the BBEG is just killing loads of people to become a god? It seems far too simple if that is all it is.

Yeah, this. I'm reminded of Mayor Wilkins in 'Buffy'. Spoiler, just in case there's someone out there who's just starting to watch Season 3 for the first time:
His 'ascension' involves eating large numbers of innocents - but that is only the last stage in a very long-running process. You can't just do that bit and shortcut all the rest.

Add to that "you don't know if the DM will allow it". I think the DM will just stare at you incredulously, and/or laugh hysterically when you tell him what you were trying to accomplish with this mass murder. Then, if you're really, really lucky, some arch-fiend will be so impressed that they'll appear and offer you a deal of some sort that involves you becoming a Balor or similar. But that's as close as you're going to get to godhood this way.

geeky_monkey
2014-02-26, 07:09 AM
So my DM has sent us on a quest to find as many villagers as we can. We are being chased by the BBEG and his goal is to kill all of the villagers and towns people as she can to become a God. I have talked all members of my party to gather them all in one general location in the largest city. I already got a focusing crystal i'm also setting up traps in all the buildings in the town. I told my team that they will be used against the BBEG. So far we've gathered 25,000 people to the town. They are all placed in the Town square. I have placed large canisters of oil The streets will be filled with the oil. I will then raise focusing crystal and light the oil on fire. By the time I do this we should have around 35,000 people in the square. I read somewhere that doing this can get you to ascend so behind my teams back I'm going to become a God. I don't even think the DM knows this is possible hell I don't even know if this will work. Any one have any advice or can any one confirm this.

I can't speak for your DM if this were my table derailing a campaign and killing all your fellow PC on a whim would probably get you kicked from the game.

Killing 35000 innocent people and hoping that this somehow makes you a god, based on a rule you 'read somewhere', isn't a plan. It's the actions of a murderhobo on steroids.

Aedilred
2014-03-01, 05:07 PM
Because it's not like I'm completely bad. Yeah it's a screwed up way to ascend but it's my only option to stop the BBEG and surprise my group at the same time
This troubles me. "Stop the BBEG" and "surprise my group" are not ethical equals. (Well, I mean, probably not). Surprising your group is not a sufficiently valid goal to justify mass murder on the good-evil axis. It is fundamentally value-neutral, depending entirely on the way in which you surprise them. Surprising them by killing thousands of innocent people is manifestly not a good, nor even a neutral, thing to do. That you profit as a result doesn't make things any better; rather, it makes it more self-interested, not less.

On the subject of becoming a god yourself, I would check that it's at least got a chance of working first and you haven't just missed most of the process (or indeed playing into the BBEG's hands). But in any case presumably the group has another plan to stop the BBEG, right? Since you haven't told them about this plan and stopping him is what the group is working towards? If so, you have an alternative, and therefore you lose your justification to murder everyone. If it were genuinely the only way to stop him, then that would have a chance at justifying the killings, although I'd suggest that almost any other option no matter how unlikely to succeed would be preferable. It's better to try and fail to do the right thing than succeed in doing the wrong, at least in alignment terms.

Let's put this in non-fantasy, non-supernatural terms and see how it looks. You discover, somehow, that a local criminal is attempting to gain financing from an international crime syndicate. With this money, he will make life a nightmare for lots of people all over the world. In order to convince the group to follow him, he has to kill the mayor and his family. Before he can do this, you drive over to the mayor's house, murder him and his family, then call the crime syndicate yourself and demand the money yourself.

Not only is that not a "good" thing to do, I think it's arguably the worst thing you could have done under the circumstances.

Note that I'm not necessarily saying that you, the player, shouldn't do it, because this isn't real life, there aren't serious consequences, and it would be entertaining. I just want to make sure you - in real life - are not deluding yourself about this not being an evil thing to do, and are not seriously expecting for that not to be reflected in any changes to your alignment etc. in the event that it works.

SixWingedAsura
2014-03-01, 09:10 PM
You're welcome. Your "heralds" should all be monstrously destructive creatures, so dangerous that they'd only be unleashed in case of even more imminent destruction. In fact, if the DM allows this ascension, you should request that the Tarrasque be your herald, since he's generally considered the equivalent of Godzilla in D&D settings.

And yeah, a general philosophy of being "above good and evil" might fit well for this hypothetical apotheosis. Your church should actually reject or at least sort of disdain the alignment system, despite the fact that many of your clerics have a tendency to ping south of neutral.

No, no, he needs Mogaru, the Final King, the Godzilla expy from Beastiary 4. (Pathfinder)

Seto
2014-03-02, 12:43 PM
Yeah, this. I'm reminded of Mayor Wilkins in 'Buffy'. Spoiler, just in case there's someone out there who's just starting to watch Season 3 for the first time:
His 'ascension' involves eating large numbers of innocents - but that is only the last stage in a very long-running process. You can't just do that bit and shortcut all the rest.


Actually, his Ascension involves making pacts with demons to provide them with food and lodgment for 100 years, eating lots of demony-spidery-things and completing rituals such as the one that made him impervious to harm, but the "large number of innocents" weren't any part of his ascension : he just gathered them because he knew that he'd be hungry... afterwards.

But sorry, I'm just nitpicking :smallbiggrin:

mikeejimbo
2014-03-04, 12:55 PM
Just so you know, there is absolutely no RAW way to become a god to my knowledge. The rules simply do not cover it, it happens only via DM fiat and Plot Magic. Therefore, if you're trying to surprise your DM with this, it has a decent chance of him just looking at you weird and it just doesn't work, or has effects completely different to what you intend.


Really? I see a lot of people in this thread saying that it's likely not going work. I suppose that's likely, and the DM could have just about anything happen. But I for ruining an already ending campaign? If this happened in my group, the DM might just let it happen. The rest of the group would love how awesome it was, and then the god might even become the BBEG of the next game.

Note though that it would be an evil character doing it.

Morbis Meh
2014-03-04, 01:27 PM
Personally if I was the DM, I would have the BBEG 'leak' this little tidbit just in case a PC's tried to do it himself so he could get the satisfaction that genocide was commited and pin it all on the 'good guys' thus starting his iron clad rule as the benevelant king who avenged the death of thousands of innocents :smallbiggrin:

ScubaGoomba
2014-03-04, 02:01 PM
That's understandable at level 1 not allowing it but we are in the late teens. The DM is been dragging this campaign on for a long time I'm actually more or less looking for a way to end. It has been fun but it should of came to an end a long time ago. And if anything will have a homebrew deity to use.

I think this is the crux of the situation that people have missed. If you think the game has gone on long enough, then tell the DM and talk to the other players. These games aren't one of one-upping your friends and, what this sounds like, is that you want to be able to "win" D&D.

And of COURSE this is an Evil act. A neutral character wouldn't justify his actions as "yeah, I killed tens of thousands of people, but now I'm a god!" And you should never aspire to be neutral. Neutral is boring. (http://noobtheloser.tumblr.com/post/72701852645/true-or-false-true-neutral-is-the-most-boring)

Madeiner
2014-03-04, 02:15 PM
Apart from the evil/not evil thing...

You are trying to derail the story that is being told, without telling the DM or the other players.

You trying to become a god can be a nice character hook, but not if you are the only one aware of it.
The DM NEEDS to know about your plan so that you can work with him if he think it's okay. Then if he wants to allow it, he can better prepare for it. If he doesnt allow it, well, it wouldnt have worked anyway if you did this in secret.
You also said the result would be that the DM has a new homebrew god to work with -- what if he doesnt want it?

This is a cooperation game, you should seek cooperation, not sabotaging DM's plans...

MY reaction if i was your DM and you pulled something like that? Session stops right there in order to process things. Your character is now an NPC. You are scolded for doing something like that, both derailing a story and wasting an opportunity to make a nice scene if only you talked about this beforehand.

Lord Torath
2014-03-04, 02:39 PM
So my DM has sent us on a quest to find as many villagers as we can. We are being chased by the BBEG and his goal is to kill all of the villagers and towns people as she can to become a God. I have talked all members of my party to gather them all in one general location in the largest city. I already got a focusing crystal i'm also setting up traps in all the buildings in the town. I told my team that they will be used against the BBEG. So far we've gathered 25,000 people to the town. They are all placed in the Town square. I have placed large canisters of oil The streets will be filled with the oil. I will then raise focusing crystal and light the oil on fire. By the time I do this we should have around 35,000 people in the square. I read somewhere that doing this can get you to ascend so behind my teams back I'm going to become a God. I don't even think the DM knows this is possible hell I don't even know if this will work. Any one have any advice or can any one confirm this.It's been two weeks now. Do you have any updates for us?