It's alive! IT'S ALIVE!!!! (30,000 year old virus revived)

[Brother Oni]

So a 30,000 year old amoeba hunting virus has been successfully thawed out and is active again (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-26387276) (Official paper:Thirty-thousand-year-old distant relative of giant icosahedral DNA viruses with a pandoravirus morphology (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/02/26/1320670111)).

The article mentions worries about reviving smallpox again, which would be my major concern, but I'm wondering: what else is down there, in the deep dark depths of Siberia?

[Adlan]

So a 30,000 year old amoeba hunting virus has been successfully thawed out and is active again (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-26387276) (Official paper:Thirty-thousand-year-old distant relative of giant icosahedral DNA viruses with a pandoravirus morphology (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/02/26/1320670111)).

The article mentions worries about reviving smallpox again, which would be my major concern, but I'm wondering: what else is down there, in the deep dark depths of Siberia?

With any luck, more Neanderthal's, if we're really lucky, a few different individuals or fragments of individuals, with some complete(ish) genomes would be really cool.

[noparlpf]

So a 30,000 year old amoeba hunting virus has been successfully thawed out and is active again (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-26387276) (Official paper:Thirty-thousand-year-old distant relative of giant icosahedral DNA viruses with a pandoravirus morphology (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/02/26/1320670111)).

I heard about that. That thing is bloody huge for a virus. Kind of wonder if my Microbio prof. heard about it/will mention it in class tomorrow.


The article mentions worries about reviving smallpox again, which would be my major concern, but I'm wondering: what else is down there, in the deep dark depths of Siberia?

Some Lovecraftian horrors, no doubt.

[Arkhosia]

Amazingly diverse and adaptable Bubonic plague strain?

[Bulldog Psion]

Ia! Cthulhu!!!

[Arkhosia]

A giant bomb activated by hitting it with digging equipment.

[GoblinArchmage]

what else is down there, in the deep dark depths of Siberia?

-Somewhere with better living conditions than Sochi.

-Carmen Sandiego, chilling with Waldo, maybe drinking some fine Russian Vodka.

-A caveman living with a little girl who can coat her body in a diamond shield.

[Hattish Thing]

What else could be buried in the ice... Hmm.... I wonder...

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSw8OqhqGc59h16w8g3X0CclO16XHdXd SR8KHfwk-UX07VHWPph

[Asta Kask]

Jimmy Hoffa?

[Brother Oni]

Amazingly diverse and adaptable Bubonic plague strain?

Well an old strain of Y.Pestis that is highly lethal but is extremely susceptible to antibiotics.

[noparlpf]

Yeah, anything that old would have no idea how to react to modern antibiotics.

[Tebryn]

Amazingly diverse and adaptable Bubonic plague strain?

Possible but the Bubonic Plague wasn't a virus. It's still out and wandering about, there's at least two to three reports annually from Arizona and New Mexico.

[noparlpf]

Possible but the Bubonic Plague wasn't a virus. It's still out and wandering about, there's at least two to three reports annually from Arizona and New Mexico.

It is possible (albeit much less likely) that some frozen bacteria avoided lysis by ice crystal formation and could be revived.

[Brother Oni]

It is possible (albeit much less likely) that some frozen bacteria avoided lysis by ice crystal formation and could be revived.

This would be more likely something that can form an endospore or other similar structure to survive extreme conditions, so something like B.anthracis (anthrax).

Y.Pestis doesn't form endospores and thus has limited survival outside a host. As previously mentioned, the main worries are viruses since they're much harder to damage with extreme conditions.

[noparlpf]

Yeah, that makes sense. I don't know about Y. pestis, I was just saying it might be possible for some sort of bacteria to survive freezing.

By the way, it occurs to me to point out that technically the virus in the OP isn't "alive". It's a virus. :smalltongue:

[Asta Kask]

It's a borderline case. The boundary between life and non-life is fuzzy.

[Adlan]

It's a borderline case. The boundary between life and non-life is fuzzy.

I'm of the opinion that there is no line, it's all just chemistry.*


*why yes, I'm a chemist, why do you ask :smallsmile:

[noparlpf]

I'm of the opinion that there is no line, it's all just chemistry.*


*why yes, I'm a chemist, why do you ask :smallsmile:

But a virus is chemistry that can't happen on its own. Ergo, not properly life.

(I like the chemistry of biology but I can't finish a chem degree because I failed P-Chem II. Nobody told me I needed Calc III and Linear Algebra. So I'm just minoring in Chem instead of doing a double major.)

[Brother Oni]

But a virus is chemistry that can't happen on its own. Ergo, not properly life.

By that measure, that excludes pretty much all obligate parasites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obligate_parasite), since they need a host to continue their chemistry.

[noparlpf]

By that measure, that excludes pretty much all obligate parasites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obligate_parasite), since they need a host to continue their chemistry.

Obligate parasites other than viruses are a tough one to justify when you say viruses aren't life because they can't reproduce on their own. Basically, even obligate parasites have their own reproductive machinery, even if they need to feed on/live inside of another organism. Viruses lack even reproductive machinery.

[Asta Kask]

There are hepatitis viruses that can only replicate if there's another virus in the cell. I think Hep D requires a Hep C infection.

[noparlpf]

There are hepatitis viruses that can only replicate if there's another virus in the cell. I think Hep D requires a Hep C infection.

Yeah, those are called satellite viruses if I remember right. They piggyback along with the primary virus's capsid because they don't encode their own capsid.

[HisHolyAngel]

Amazingly diverse and adaptable Bubonic plague strain?

Ugh... Not even funny. I'm way too first world to live an era where the plague exists. (and I realize all this sounds really pretentious because you guys don't know me in real life with my sassy, 'I'm better than you' charm, but just roll with me)
I also just don't ever get sick. This winter, I got the first cold bad enough to make me miss stuff since I was in preschool. Got eye infections because of it too.

[Serpentine]

Oooooooo, a "do viruses count as life" debate!

http://media.giphy.com/media/BSHOAbAnAY240/giphy.gif

I was just thinking about starting one of these the other day, coincidentally.

[factotum]

Oooooooo, a "do viruses count as life" debate!

According to what I learned in biology, no, they don't, because they can't reproduce without the assistance of a host organism.

[hamishspence]

There's plants that can no longer reproduce without the assistance of people - due to how much domestication has changed them.

And mules are usually considered alive despite being usually unable to reproduce.

[Serpentine]

According to what I learned in biology, no, they don't, because they can't reproduce without the assistance of a host organism.
Last I heard, it was still being debated even by the people who devote their lives to knowing this stuff. So compared with a lot of these sorts of arguments, this is a pretty legit subject for a debate. Like, a proper one.
*returns to popcorn*

[Asta Kask]

Defining life is very difficult - according to many definitions fire is alive (it can reproduce, it has a metabolism oxidizing substrates, etc.) Is it necessary? We have things that are definitely alive - like porpoises. Then we have things which are definitely not alive - like rocks. Then there are things were people have different opinions, like viruses. If by the end of the day we reach consensus about viruses, placing them in either camp (very unlikely) - have we really learned anything?

[noparlpf]

There's plants that can no longer reproduce without the assistance of people - due to how much domestication has changed them.

And mules are usually considered alive despite being usually unable to reproduce.

Macroscopic organisms are different. Their cells obviously reproduce on their own; how else could they grow? And they still have all the machinery for reproduction on both a microscopic and macroscopic level.

[Randomguy]

I'm adding my 2 cents into the virus debate:

In my bio class a few years back, I've seen a video about researchers reconstructing a virus genome a few years back. They put it in an environment similar to that of a cell (with cytoplasm but no organelles or nucleus) and it started reproducing. I've also heard that the genome for another giant virus was partially sequenced, and they found genes for reproduction implying this type of virus could, at some point, reproduce on its own.

Let's see if I can dig out some sources:
This (http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/07_02/polio_create.shtml) is the thing I saw the video about in bio class, and it talks about them building the virus from scratch but not reproducing outside of cells.
The wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckard_Wimmer) on the researcher has this quote:

Many investigators have since used this strategy involving a cell “juice” void of the barrier of a cellular membrane, of nuclei or of mitochondria, for the study of key steps in poliovirus translation and genome replication.

So virus can replicate in cell juice..

So I'd argue that virus do count as life, they just can't reproduce outside of their favoured environment, in the same way as some bacteria can't. I'm not using the best sources, though.

Either way, Viruses are interesting.

[noparlpf]

Their cell juice has to include at least transcription machinery and ribosomes, though, because viruses don't have those.

[Asta Kask]

Wimmer seems to treat viruses as some hybrid, semi-alive entities, which I think is fair. Sometimes things don't fit into neat boxes and viruses may be among those things.

[Slipperychicken]

Sometimes things don't fit into neat boxes and viruses may be among those things.

Everything fits in boxes. You just need to make a new box sometimes.

[Brother Oni]

Everything fits in boxes. You just need to make a new box sometimes.

While I agree that granularity of boxes is possible, when you have three boxes marked 'Alive', 'Not Alive' and 'Maybe Alive', it raises questions of the usefulness of those boxes.

[Targ Collective]

Defining life/notlife is limited. We need a third term, to encapsualte the middle of the debate, Viruslife.

[Socksy]

While I agree that granularity of boxes is possible, when you have three boxes marked 'Alive', 'Not Alive' and 'Maybe Alive', it raises questions of the usefulness of those boxes.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Schrodingers_cat.svg/1995px-Schrodingers_cat.svg.png

In seriousness, though- we haven't cured the common cold, so why do people think antibiotics will work on any other virus?

[Brother Oni]

In seriousness, though- we haven't cured the common cold, so why do people think antibiotics will work on any other virus?

There's a whole host of reasons for this, from lack of education (people don't know that antibiotics won't affect viruses), expectation (people expect to get better when they visit a doctor and instructions of 'it'll get better in a few days' aren't taken well, in some cases violently), being unable to differentiate between medicines (antibiotics and anti-virals are both commonly available in oral dosage forms), good doctors' unwillingness to over-prescribe to keep resistance down in the wild, lack of technical/economic/political feasibilty for a pharma company to pursue a cure or any number of other reasons.

TLDR: People are stupid.

[YossarianLives]

Maybe they'll find captain America next.

[Slipperychicken]

There's a whole host of reasons for this, from lack of education (people don't know that antibiotics won't affect viruses), expectation (people expect to get better when they visit a doctor and instructions of 'it'll get better in a few days' aren't taken well, in some cases violently), being unable to differentiate between medicines (antibiotics and anti-virals are both commonly available in oral dosage forms), good doctors' unwillingness to over-prescribe to keep resistance down in the wild, lack of technical/economic/political feasibilty for a pharma company to pursue a cure or any number of other reasons.

TLDR: People are stupid.

Well, if you don't like human error, you'd probably be pleased to hear about all the advances in diagnostic programs. There are machines which can diagnose and prescribe treatments with a lower error rate than human doctors (symptoms, medical history, and other factors go in, treatment recommendations come out). All you'd need to do is tell the machines to over-prescribe when appropriate. It's not like they can refuse.

And it's not like laypeople actually need to understand how or why these things work: they just need to truthfully answer the doctor's questions and do what he says.

[Brother Oni]

And it's not like laypeople actually need to understand how or why these things work: they just need to truthfully answer the doctor's questions and do what he says.

Except that the people who are unlikely to comply with a doctor's instructions are also the most likely to refuse to do what a machine tells them to do.

I also wasn't complaining about incorrect diagnosis or prescription, I was complaining about patient compliance and expectation management.

[georgie_leech]

Except that the people who are unlikely to comply with a doctor's instructions are also the most likely to refuse to do what a machine tells them to do.

I also wasn't complaining about incorrect diagnosis or prescription, I was complaining about patient compliance and expectation management.

This. There are a lot of people who go to the doctor and expect to be prescribed something when medication won't help, like when it's a problem with diet/lifestyle/will go away in a week on its own.

[MPG]

It's unfortunate but true we, North Americans at least, live in a society of treatment rather than prevention. We expect the magical medical men to fix all our problems with a pill or elixir of unknown origin.
But I digress . . .
Back on the original topic
I read the article and some of the research paper a few weeks ago and it's both pretty cool and kinda scary that these things "survived".
I like the oxymoron of saying giant virus, though.

[Brother Oni]

I like the oxymoron of saying giant virus, though.

I don't think 'giant virus' is an oxymoron though - there's nothing in the phrase name that implies small unlike, say, giant pygmy hippo.

[MPG]

:smallconfused: I'm fairly sure virus implies small.
They are the physically smallest group of microorganism, unless you want to include prions which I'm not getting into here, which by definition are very very small.

But either way, I find the idea of a viral partial that is as big as a typical cocciod bacteria to be interesting.

[Sith_Happens]

according to many definitions fire is alive

That would explain California.:smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

We expect the magical medical men to fix all our problems with a pill or elixir of unknown origin.

To be fair, their media portrayal is pretty much the same as alchemists, only with labcoats instead of robes. Also, they usually can fix our problems with some chemical or other.

[Brother Oni]

:smallconfused: I'm fairly sure virus implies small.
They are the physically smallest group of microorganism, unless you want to include prions which I'm not getting into here, which by definition are very very small.

I think it's just a language interpretation difference between us. English technically isn't my first language, so I sometimes don't have the same associations with words that a native speaker would.

[georgie_leech]

I think it's just a language interpretation difference between us. English technically isn't my first language, so I sometimes don't have the same associations with words that a native speaker would.

It's not strictly an oxymoron, you're right about that, because virus or viral aren't usually used to describe things in the same way, say, shrimp is. Microscopic would be the word used. Besides, "giant" is a relative term; the Dwemer of The Elder Scrolls fame may have been dwarfed by giants, but they were still about as tall as the rest of the elves.

[Slipperychicken]

It's not strictly an oxymoron, you're right about that, because virus or viral aren't usually used to describe things in the same way, say, shrimp is. Microscopic would be the word used. Besides, "giant" is a relative term; the Dwemer of The Elder Scrolls fame may have been dwarfed by giants, but they were still about as tall as the rest of the elves.

Basically this: "Giant virus" works, if you mean "Giant, in relation to other viruses".

[Arbane]

what else is down there, in the deep dark depths of Siberia?

If we're very, VERY unlucky:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QJsgeaQxj_E/TzM88EzOzfI/AAAAAAAAIBA/_3ylS-ZyhN0/s640/TheThing-ice+saucer+matte.png