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View Full Version : The How-It-Should-Be Paladin, v2.0



Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 03:16 PM
This Paladin class incorporates most suggestions from the first How-It-Should-Be Paladin and opens the class to different alignments. Thanks to TheOOB for his creation of the Evil mantles.

The Paladin
Requirements
Alignment: Lawful Good, Lawful Evil, Chaotic Good, or Chaotic Evil

Note: Lawful Good Paladins are called Paladins; Lawful Evil are called Tyrants; Chaotic Good are called Rebels; Chaotic Evil are called Reavers. This class refers to all types as "Paladin" for ease of use.

Specifications
HD: d10

Skills: A paladin chooses two skill sets. 2 + Int skill points per level, x4 at first level.

Prowess: A paladin gains six points of prowess per level.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Spells: Beginning at 1st level, a Paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the Paladin spell list. A Paladin must choose and prepare his spells in advance. A lawful good or chaotic good Paladin uses the spell list provided in the PHB, while a lawful evil or chaotic evil Paladin uses the spell list for Blackguards provided in the DMG. Paladins of either alignment may cast any orison off of the Cleric spell list, as long as it does not conflict with their alignment.

To prepare or cast a spell, a Paladin must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Paladin’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Paladin’s Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a Paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Paladin. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. When Table: The Paladin indicates that the Paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level. The Paladin does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a cleric does.

A Paladin prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though he cannot lose a prepared spell to spontaneously cast a cure spell in its place. A Paladin may prepare and cast any spell on the Paladin spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Aura (Ex): The power of a Paladin’s aura of good (if good) or evil (if evil) is equal to his Paladin level. See the detect good and detect evil spells for details.

Lay on Hands (Su): A good Paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (his own or those of others) by touch. Each day he can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to his Paladin level × his Charisma bonus. A Paladin may choose to divide his healing among multiple recipients, and he doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action. The caster level for Lay on Hands (if required) is equal to the Paladin's level.

Alternatively, a good Paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The Paladin decides how many of his daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.

An evil Paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal his own wounds by touch. Each day he can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to his Paladin level x his Charisma bonus. A Paladin may choose to divide his healing among multiple uses, and he doesn't have to use it all at once. Using Lay on Hands is a standard action. The Caster level for Lay on Hands (if required) is equal to the Paladin's level.

Alternatively, an evil Paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to living creatures. Using Lay on Hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The Paladin decides how many of his daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching a creature.

Mantle of Faith (Su): A Paladin receives gifts from his patron deity according to his faith. Starting at second level, again at fourth level, and then again every three levels thereafter, the Paladin receives blessings from his patron deity in exchange for a stricter code of conduct. In this way, the higher level a Paladin becomes, the stricter his vows are and the more trust his deity has in him. A Paladin can select any Mantle of Faith from the lists following the class table upon leveling up, as long as they match the Paladin's current alignment. Effects of Mantles of Faith generated by multiple Paladins stack with other Mantles of different types. If a Paladin ceases to be of an alignment in accordance with his Mantles, he loses access to them until he regains an appropriate alignment.

Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a Paladin gains a bonus equal to his Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

Smite (Su): Starting at 3rd level, once per day, a good Paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. He adds his Charisma bonus (if any) to his attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per Paladin level. If the Paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.

An evil Paladin instead smites good, following the rules above.

At 5th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the Paladin may smite one additional time per day, to a maximum of seven times per day at 20th level.

Transformation (Su): Through dedicated and exceptional service to your deity, you have gained their personal favor, which manifests as follows. At twentieth level, you gain the ability to sprout great, translucent and intangible wings at will. These grant you the ability to fly at a speed of 60 feet (good maneuverability). The wings may be white, feathered, flaming, bat-like, or any other traits that represent the nature of your deity. In addition, you gain damage reduction 10/silver and your type changes to Outsider (Native). You also gain subtypes in accordance with your alignment: Good for good Paladins, Evil for evil ones. Sprouting wings is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, but you cannot fly on the same turn in which you sprout them.

Alternatively, the Paladin's mount (if applicable) may sprout wings with the same statistics.

Paladin Progression
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4
1st | +1 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Lay on Hands, Aura of Good | 0 | - | - | - | - | -
2nd | +2 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Divine Grace, Mantle of Faith | 0 | - | - | - | -
3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Smite 1/day | 1 | - | - | - | -
4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Mantle of Faith | 1 | - | - | - | -
5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Smite 2/day | 1 | 0 | - | - | -
6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +2 | +5 | - | 2 | 0 | - | - | -
7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Mantle of Faith | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +6 | Smite 3/day | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +3 | +6 | - | 2 | 1 | 0 | - | -
10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Mantle of Faith | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | -
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Smite 4/day | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +4 | +8 | - | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Mantle of Faith | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | -
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +9 | Smite 5/day | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | -
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +5 | +9 | - | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Mantle of Faith | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Smite 6/day | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1

18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +11 | - | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Mantle of Faith | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +12 | Smite 7/day, Divine Transformation | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 [/table]

Mantles of Faith
Good Mantles
Abstinence
The Paladin has foresworn the use of drugs, alcohol, potions, and other similar substances. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly imbibes any drug, alcohol, or similar.

The Paladin receives immunity to various effects according to his level. At first level, he is immune to non-magical poison. At fifth level, he becomes immune to non-magical disease and receives a +1 bonus to saves to resist mind-affecting effects. At tenth level, he becomes immune to magical poison, and his bonus to resist mind-affecting effects increases to +2. At fifteenth level, he becomes immune to magical disease, and his bonus to resist mind-affecting effects increases to +3. At twentieth level, he becomes completely immune to harmful mind-affecting effects.

In addition, once per day for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier, the Paladin can provide to all allies within 5' + 5'/3 Paladin levels a sacred bonus to saves to resist mind-affecting effects equal to his Charisma modifier.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Abstinence mantle can atone by fasting for one week's time.

Charity
The Paladin has sworn to tithe at least 20% of all his earnings (including treasure) to charity and the church. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he fails to tithe that amount.

The Paladin receives a sacred bonus to Diplomacy checks equal to 1/2 his class level (rounded up). In addition, once per day for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier, the Paladin can use charm person (as the spell). At seventh level, this changes to charm monster. At fourteenth level, the Paladin can either perform a charm monster or a mass charm person, and can use this ability twice per day.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Charity mantle can atone by giving away at least 50% of his assets.

Grace
The Paladin has sworn to protect his allies, with his life should the need arise. He loses all aspects of this mantle if an ally of his within 60' falls in combat before the Paladin falls.

The Paladin, and all allies within 30', gain a sacred bonus to Reflex saves equal to 1/4 the Paladin's class level. At fifth level, the Paladin--and all allies within 5' + 5'/3 class levels, gain the benefits of Evasion while in light or no armor. At tenth level, the Paladin gains the benefits of Evasion in medium armor. At fifteenth level, the Paladin gains the benefits of Improved Evasion while in light or no armor. At twentieth level, the Paladin gains the benefits of Improved Evasion while in medium armor.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Grace mantle can atone by either finding the means to return his fallen comrades to life or providing them with proper and honorable burials.

Humility
The Paladin understands that, to be truly great, one must remain humble. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever boasts or exaggerates about his accomplishments or uses social status to influence another.

The Paladin, and all allies within 30', gain a sacred bonus to Will saves equal to 1/4 the Paladin's class level. At fifth level, the Paladin also receives a sacred bonus to AC equal to his Charisma modifier.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Humility mantle can atone by offering his services to a person of no significant social status for one month.

Mercy
The Paladin has sworn an oath to never willingly harm non-evil creatures. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever knowingly kills a non-evil creature or performs a Coup de Grace attack.

The Paladin can deal non-lethal damage with any weapon without receiving a -4 penalty. In addition, whenever he deals non-lethal damage to a target, he deals +1d6 extra non-lethal damage for each three Paladin levels and can deal non-lethal damage with a Smite attack.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Mercy mantle can atone by offering his services to a hospital or other medical organization for one month.

Peace
The Paladin holds himself to a peaceful standard in accordance with his god's wishes. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly enters into combat without trying to prevent it, or if he witnesses conflict without trying to prevent it.

The Paladin receives as a spell-like ability, usable a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier (with a caster level equal to his class level), the hold person spell. At fifth level, he may expend two uses to use hold monster. At tenth level, he may expend three uses to use mass hold person. At fifteenth level, he may expend four uses to use mass hold monster. If a creature perishes while held by any form of this spell, the Paladin loses all aspects of this mantle.

In addition, creatures around the Paladin in a 5' radius (plus 5' for every 3 Paladin levels) are affected as if by a calm emotions spell.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Peace mantle can atone by preventing a major conflict (such as a battle or gang war).

Prudence
A Paladin is aware of the strength of both his allies and his foes, and never places his allies into a situation where they could be greatly harmed or even slain. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly allows allies to put themselves in great danger without first attempting to find a less dangerous solution.

The Paladin--and all allies within 5' + 5'/2 Paladin levels--receives an insight bonus to Armor Class equal to his Wisdom modifier.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Prudence mantle can atone by spending a week in solitary meditation and reflection.

Purity
A Paladin must stand against the forces of evil without becoming evil himself. He holds himself to a strict standard: do no evil, lest ye become like one of them. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly commits an evil act or associates with evil or undead creatures.

The Paladin gains the ability to turn undead as a Cleric of four levels lower than his own level does. If this would result in an effective Cleric level of 0 or less, the Paladin cannot turn undead.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Purity mantle can atone by seeking out and destroying a group of undead of difficulty equal to his CR or higher.

Redemption
A Paladin must redeem others who do not adhere to faith as vehemently as the Paladin. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he does not forgive those who err in the name of good.

The Paladin's Lay on Hands ability gains new functions. It can remove disease (as the spell) by spending 15 points of healing, remove curse (as the spell) by spending 20 points, and create an atonement effect (as the spell) by spending 40 points. The atonement effect cannot affect the Paladin, only other creatures.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Redemption mantle can atone by seeking out and obtaining a full pardon for a wrongly accused criminal.

Temperance
A Paladin must display self-restraint in all their actions. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he attacks in the first round of combat.

The Paladin and all allies within 5' + 5'/2 Paladin levels receive a sacred bonus to ranged attack rolls equal to his Charisma modifier.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Temperance mantle can atone by not acting for ten rounds of combat.

Valor
A Paladin must be regal and valorous to combat the forces of evil. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he attempts to coerce or influence anyone through Intimidation.

The Paladin becomes immune to fear effects. In addition, all allies within a 5' radius + 5'/2 Paladin levels receive a sacred bonus to saving throws against fear effects equal to 1/2 the Paladin's class level.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Valor mantle can atone by offering his services to a local temple for a period of at least 1 week.

Lawful Mantles
Alliance
The Paladin has contracted a subordinate creature to further his cause. He loses all aspects of this mantle if his mount dies.

The Paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve his in his crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium Paladin) or a warpony (for a Small Paladin). See the PHB for how to handle a Paladin's mount.

Once per day, as a full-round action, a Paladin may magically call his mount from the extrapalanar realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the Paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the Paladin and remains for 2 hours per Paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the Paladin may release a particular mount from service.

Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a Conjuration (Calling) effect.

Should the Paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The Paladin takes a -1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls for a period of 30 days.

Atonement: The Paladin must seek a course of resurrection for the deceased creature.

Conviction
The Paladin is certain of himself and his actions, so much so that his unswerving faith augments his martial prowess. The Paladin loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever questions his faith, attacks another member of his faith, or smites a creature that is unaffected by the smite attack.

The Paladin's attacks are considered bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At tenth level, all his attacks are also considered magical, lawful, and silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At fifteenth level, all his attack are also considered adamantine, mithral, and holy (or evil, depending on your alignment) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At twentieth level, the Paladin ignores the first ten points of his foe's damage reduction.

Atonement Method: In order to atone for violating the conviction mantle, a Paladin must take on a dangerous quest from a powerful figure of their faith and complete the quest without promise of compensation.

Diligence
The Paladin has sworn to examine his opponents and his surroundings thoroughly. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he does not attempt every legitimate action before giving up.

The Paladin can detect evil or detect good (as the spell, and detecting alignment opposite to his own) at will. At fifth level, the Paladin gains Darkvision 30'. At tenth level, the Paladin gains Low-Light Vision. At fifteenth level, the Paladin gains Scent 30'. At twentieth level, the Paladin gains Blindsight 15'.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Diligence mantle can atone by willingly subjecting himself to blindness (temporary or permanent) for at least a day.

Honesty
The Paladin has foresworn lying, for any reason. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly makes a Bluff check for any reason other than to feint in combat, if he ever uses the Forgery skill, or if he ever lies.

The Paladin receives a sacred bonus to Sense Motive checks equal to 1/2 his class level (rounded up). In addition, once per day for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier, the Paladin can see invisibility (as the spell). At seventh level, this changes to invisibility purge. At fourteenth level, the Paladin can either perform an invisibility purge or can see as if affected by true seeing, and can use this ability twice per day.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who breaks the Honesty mantle can atone by declaring what he is and who he worships in the middle of a medium sized or larger city of an average alignment that he does not share.

Honor
The Paladin holds himself to honorable standards of combat set down by his god. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever feints, trips, or gains the benefits of flanking in combat.

The Paladin receives a sacred bonus to melee attack rolls equal to his Charisma modifier.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Honor mantle can atone by offering his services to a judge or similar ruling authority for a month.

Justice
The Paladin is an agent of justice and must uphold the law to its fullest extent. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly breaks a law or associates with lawbreakers.

The Paladin can detect chaos (as the spell) at will. At fifth level, the Paladin's smite ability can be used against chaotic creatures to equal effect. If used against a creature who is both chaotic and of the appropriate alignment for the Paladin's smite ability, the smite's damage is doubled and automatically confirms a threatened critical.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Justice mantle must seek out and bring to justice a lawbreaker in a public form in order to atone.

Patience
The Paladin has sworn an oath to never rush in without thinking and to always consider all courses of action. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever acts without considering the consequences or attacks in the first round of combat.

The Paladin only needs four hours of sleep a night. At seventh level, the Paladin does not need to eat more than one meal a week. At fourteenth level, the Paladin no longer needs to breathe. At twentieth level, the Paladin no longer needs to eat or sleep.

Atonement Method: In order to atone for violating the Patience mantle, the Paladin must spend the first 5 rounds of combat analyzing the situation and taking no actions.

Perseverance
A Paladin must never falter and never sway on his chosen path. He holds himself to a resolute and stoic standard in accordance with his god's wishes. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly stands down from a fight he knows he can win, or if he gives up in the face of adversity.

All allies within a 5' radius (plus 5' for every 3 Paladin levels) gain DR 1/-, plus 1/- for every five class levels of the Paladin. In addition, once per day for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier, a Paladin can surround himself and his allies with an aura of magical resilience. This aura grants his allies SR equal to his class level plus his Charisma modifier.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Perseverance mantle must complete a nearly impossible task (cutting down a great tree with a dagger, translating a huge ancient text, etc.) over the course of several days. During that time the Paladin can perform no other actions except those needed to survive.

Piety
A Paladin must pray to his deity, and those with the Piety Mantle of Faith must pray exceptionally. He holds himself to a standard where he must pray at least five times per day, for at least an hour per prayer session. He loses all aspects of his mantle if he goes one day without praying five times, with at least one hour of time between periods of prayer.

The Paladin receives an axiomatic bonus to all saving throws equal to 1/4 his class level. In addition, all allies within 5' + 5'/3 Paladin levels receive an axiomatic bonus to saving throws equal to the Paladin's Charisma modifier.

Atonement Method: In order to atone for violating a Piety mantle, a Paladin must spend a week in intense prayer, during which time they make take no other actions except what is needed to survive (eating, sleeping, breathing, etc.).

Zeal
A Paladin must always accept an honorable challenge. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever does not accept an honorable challenge or if he smites a creature that is unaffected by the smite attack.

The Paladin gains +1d6 axiomatic damage when performing smite attacks. This improves to +2d6 at 5th level, +3d6 at 10th level, +4d6 at 15th level, and +5d6 at 20th level.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Zeal mantle can atone by challenging another warrior of at least equal power to them to a fair duel.

Evil Mantles
Audacity
A Paladin must never show any fear. They lose all benefits of this mantle if they ever allow someone to Intimidate them or prevent them from doing/force them to do something through threats or display of arms.

The Paladin becomes immune to fear effects. In addition, all allies within a 5' radius + 5'/2 Paladin levels receive a profane bonus to saving throws against fear effects equal to 1/2 the Paladin's class level.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Audacity mantle can atone by defeating a creature of CR higher than his ECL in single combat.

Authority
A Paladin is always right, and those who do not agree with him usually end up dead. He loses the benefits of this mantle if he takes orders from anyone other then a servant of his deity.

The Paladin gains the ability to rebuke undead as a Cleric of four levels lower than his own level does. If this would result in an effective Cleric level of 0 or less, the Paladin cannot rebuke undead.

Atonement Method: In order to atone for violating the Authority mantle, a Paladin must slaughter the one whom he took orders from.

Conflict
The Paladin thrives on conflict, and loses all benefit of this mantle if they fail to try and escalates a conflict into violence.

The Paladin receives as a spell-like ability, usable a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier (with a caster level equal to his class level), the rage spell. At fifth level, he may expend two uses to use heroism. At tenth level, he may expend three uses to use mass heroism. At fifteenth level, he may expend four uses to use greater shout.

Atonement Method: In order to atone for violating the conflict mantle the Paladin must single-handedly cause a great conflict involving at least a dozen people--other than himself.

Deceit
The lengths that a Paladin will go to protect himself knows no bounds. You lose all benefits of this mantle if you ever put yourself in direct danger without first trying to a safer alternative (of course, putting allies in danger is fine, especially if it gets you out of danger).

The Paladin--and all allies within 5' + 5'/2 Paladin levels--receives an insight bonus to Armor Class equal to his Wisdom modifier.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Deceit mantle must spend at least a day making at least 5 elaborate contingency plans to protect himself in dangerous situations and must enact at least 3 of those plans to atone.

Discretion
A Paladin must protect themselves and not rush into combat. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he takes damage in the first round of combat.

The Paladin and all allies within 5' + 5'/2 Paladin levels receive a profane bonus to ranged attack rolls equal to his Charisma modifier.

Atonement Method: A Paladin may atone for violating the Discretion mantle by not taking damage for 10 consecutive rounds of combat.

Extravagance
A Paladin will only ingest things he perceives as worthy of him. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he consumes less than two meals a day worth less than 10gp a piece.

The Paladin receives immunity to various effects according to his level. At first level, he is immune to non-magical poison. At fifth level, he becomes immune to non-magical disease and receives a +1 bonus to saves to resist mind-affecting effects. At tenth level, he becomes immune to magical poison, and his bonus to resist mind-affecting effects increases to +2. At fifteenth level, he becomes immune to magical disease, and his bonus to resist mind-affecting effects increases to +3. At twentieth level, he becomes completely immune to harmful mind-affecting effects.

In addition, once per day for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier, the Paladin can provide to all allies within 5' + 5'/3 Paladin levels a profane bonus to saves to resist mind-affecting effects equal to his Charisma modifier.

Atonement Method: In order to atone for breaking the Extravagance mantle, the Paladin must ingest something rare and of unparalleled value, such as the heart of a great wyrm dragon, or wine fermented by elves for 4,000 years.

Greed
The Paladin is overcome by greed and must spend at least 20% of all earnings (including treasure) on valuables or art objects which have no value as adventuring equipment (or alternatively the Paladin could just hoard all the gold). The Paladin loses all benefit of this mantle if they fail to buy this amount, or if they use this treasure to buy any adventuring equipment.

The Paladin receives a profane bonus to Diplomacy checks equal to 1/2 his class level (rounded up). In addition, once per day for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier, the Paladin can use charm person (as the spell). At seventh level, this changes to charm monster. At fourteenth level, the Paladin can either perform a charm monster or a mass charm person, and can use this ability twice per day.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Greed mantle can atone by acquiring treasure equal to 30% of his current assets.

Merciless
Mercy is a tool of the weak to protect the weak. The Paladin loses all benefits of this mantle if they ever purposefully deal non-lethal damage with an attack, or lets one of their enemies live through combat without hunting them down and killing them.

The Paladin gains a +1 to all attack and damage rolls vs. an opponent they hit in the previous round of combat. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 10th level, +4 at 15th level, and +5 at 20th level.

Atonement Method: In order to atone for violating the Merciless mantle a Paladin must show their lack of mercy by publicly execute someone for some minor slight (bumping into them, speaking to them with disrespect, etc.).

Pride
A Paladin is superior to all around them, and does not take slights easily. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever allows someone to insult him without replying in kind, or if he shows reverence (bowing, saluting, kneeling) to anyone other then an agent of his deity.

The Paladin, and all allies within 30', gain a profane bonus to Will saves equal to 1/4 the Paladin's class level. At fifth level, the Paladin also receives a profane bonus to AC equal to his Charisma modifier.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Pride mantle must publicly belittle a powerful figure (such as a king, emperor, or god) while surrounded by followers of said figure.

Survival
A Paladin's survival takes precedence over the survival of all others. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever aids an ally (whether through healing, beneficial spells, or the aid another action) when he himself is not at full hp.

The Paladin, and all allies within 30', gain a profane bonus to Reflex saves equal to 1/4 the Paladin's class level. At fifth level, the Paladin and all allies within 5' + 5'/3 class levels gain the benefits of Evasion while in light or no armor. At tenth level, the Paladin gains the benefits of Evasion in medium armor. At fifteenth level, the Paladin gains the benefits of Improved Evasion while in light or no armor. At twentieth level, the Paladin gains the benefits of Improved Evasion while in medium armor.

Atonement Method: A Paladin atones for violating the Survival mantle only when the ally they aided to break the mantle dies (the mantle is not broken again if the ally is resurrected in one way or another: the ally only need die, not stay dead).

Vengeance
A Paladin does not take lightly to those who oppose him. He loses all benefit of this mantle if he refuses to kill a member of an opposing faith given the opportunity.

The Paladin's Lay on Hands ability gains new functions. He can use contagion (as the spell) by spending 15 points of healing, bestow curse (as the spell) by spending 20 points, and create a slay living effect (as the spell) by spending 40 points. The save DC for these abilities is equal to 10 + 1/2 Paladin level + Cha mod.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Vengeance mantle can atone by killing another creature with his Lay on Hands ability.

Chaotic Mantles
Anarchy
The Paladin has taken a vow to resist authority and promote the freedom of the individual. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he submits to someone on the grounds of their authority.

The Paladin--and all allies within 5'+5'/2 Paladin levels--roll two dice per die when determining damage and select the higher die.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who has violated the Anarchy mantle can atone by overthrowing an authoritative group.

Bravado
The Paladin is certain of himself and his actions, and will not back down to others' authority. More often, his powerful self-assurance sways others to his cause. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he fails an Intimidate check, becomes frightened, shaken, or panicked, or smites a creature that is unaffected by his smite attack.

The Paladin adds Intimidate to his class skills and receives an anarchic bonus to Intimidate checks equal to 1/2 his class level (rounded up). At fifth level, the Paladin's smite ability can be used against lawful creatures to equal effect. If used against a creature who is both lawful and of the appropriate alignment for the Paladin's smite ability, the smite's damage is doubled and automatically confirms a threatened critical.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who has violated the Bravado mantle can atone by defeating a creature of higher CR than his ECL in single combat.

Communion
The Paladin has sworn a sacred vow of union with a creature of great import to his cause. A Paladin loses all aspects of this mantle if his mount dies.

The Paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve his in his crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium Paladin) or a warpony (for a Small Paladin). See the PHB for how to handle a Paladin's mount.

Once per day, as a full-round action, a Paladin may magically call his mount from the extraplanar realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the Paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the Paladin and remains for 2 hours per Paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the Paladin may release a particular mount from service.

Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a Conjuration (Calling) effect.

Should the Paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The Paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until he gains a Paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the Paladin takes a -1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.

Atonement: The Paladin must seek a course of resurrection for the deceased creature.

Discord
The Paladin is dedicated to sowing chaos and discord in his wake. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever tells the whole truth or rolls a natural 1 on a Bluff check.

The Paladin adds Bluff to his class skills and receives a sacred bonus to Bluff checks equal to 1/2 his class level (rounded up). In addition, the Paladin can spend 20 points of his Lay on Hands ability to inflict a confusion effect (as the spell) to a creature he touches.

Atonement Method: The Paladin must succeed on a Bluff check with a natural 20.


Entropy
The Paladin becomes a living force of the eventual destruction of all things. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever leaves a combative foe alive.

The Paladin emenates an aura of entropy. All opponents within 10' + 5'/2 Paladin levels receive a -1 penalty to Armor Class, attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. This increases to -2 at fifth level, -3 at tenth level, -4 at fifteenth level, and -5 at twentieth level.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Entropy mantle can atone by pursuing and slaying the foe that caused him to violate the mantle.

Freedom
The Paladin commits himself to freeing all creatures from magical constraints across the planes. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever uses magic to arrest or command another creature.

The Paladin receives as a spell-like ability, usable a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier (with a caster level equal to his class level), the dispel magic spell. At fifth level, he may expend two uses to use freedom of movement. At tenth level, he may expend three uses to use break enchantment. At fifteenth level, he may expend four uses to use freedom. If a creature perishes while held by any form of this spell, the Paladin loses all aspects of this mantle.

Atonement Method: To atone for violating the Freedom mantle, the Paladin must free a group of imprisoned people from captors with a combined CR of the Paladin's level or greater.

Liberty
The Paladin is committed to freeing all creatures from needless rules and regulations. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he does not fight for justice and equality among all beings, or if he prejudices against another being.

The Paladin receives a sacred bonus to Diplomacy checks equal to 1/2 his class level (rounded up). In addition, once per day for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier, the Paladin can use charm person (as the spell). At seventh level, this changes to charm monster. At fourteenth level, the Paladin can either perform a charm monster or a mass charm person, and can use this ability twice per day.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Liberty mantle can atone by successfully overthrowing a corrupt leadership organization.

Luck
The Paladin receives the blessing of his deity in the form of lucky breaks. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever rolls a 1 on a d20 roll without using a reroll.

The Paladin can reroll a number of d20 rolls per day equal to his Charisma modifier.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Luck mantle can atone by rolling a natural 20 and voluntarily reducing it to a 1.

Triumph
The Paladin is certain of his inevitable victory, so much so that his unswerving faith augments his martial prowess. The Paladin loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever stands down from an opponent, attacks another member of his faith, or smites a creature that is unaffected by the smite attack.

The Paladin's attacks are considered bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At tenth level, all his attacks are also considered magical, chaotic, and silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At fifteenth level, all his attacks are also considered adamantine, mithral, and holy (or evil, depending on your alignment) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At twentieth level, the Paladin ignores the first ten points of his foe's damage reduction.

Atonement Method: In order to atone for violating the Triumph mantle, a Paladin must take on a dangerous quest of their own devising and complete the quest.

Vision
The Paladin receives the blessing of his deity in the form of extra-sensory perception. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he is rendered blind, deaf, or mute.

The Paladin can detect law (as the spell) at will. At fifth level, the Paladin gains Darkvision 30'. At tenth level, the Paladin gains Low-Light Vision. At fifteenth level, the Paladin gains Scent 30'. At twentieth level, the Paladin gains the ability to cast moment of prescience (as the spell) once per day.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Vison mantle can atone by curing the ailments of at least ten people.

Regaining Mantles of Faith
A Paladin who ceases to be of proper alignment for his Mantles of Faith or who violates the codes of conduct set down in his Mantles of Faith loses all Paladin spells and the abilities granted by the affected Mantles. He may not progress any farther in levels as a Paladin. He regains his abilities and advancement potential if he atones for his violations as appropriate.

Conversely, upon leveling up, a Paladin may trade Mantles of Faith that he no longer meets the alignment restrictions for on a one-for-one basis, though this should be worked out with the DM.

Metamantle Feats

Surge of Faith
Requirements: Two Mantles of Faith

Benefit: Once per day, you may sacrifice a prepared divine spell to augment one of your Mantles of Faith. Your effective Paladin level for one Mantle of Faith increases by an amount equal to the level of the sacrificed spell. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier plus your Charisma modifier (minimum 1).

Special: You may take this feat up to three times. Each time, it adds one daily use.

Surge of Glory
Requirements: Two Mantles of Faith

Benefit: Once per day, you may sacrifice a prepared divine spell to augment one of your Mantles of Faith. All numeric effects for one Mantle of Faith increase by an amount equal to the level of the sacrificed spell. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier plus your Charisma modifier (minimum 1).

Special: You may take this feat up to three times. Each time, it adds one daily use.

Surge of Grandeur
Requirements: Two Mantles of Faith

Benefit: Once per day, you may sacrifice a prepared divine spell to augment one of your Mantles of Faith. The effective radius for one Mantle of Faith increases by an amount equal to the level of the sacrificed spell times 5'. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier plus your Charisma modifier (minimum 1).

Special: You may take this feat up to three times. Each time, it adds one daily use.

elliott20
2007-02-01, 03:47 PM
Yoinkage!!

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 03:51 PM
Yoinkage!!

Go right ahead.

Legoman
2007-02-01, 03:53 PM
Paladins don't normally have Orisons, is there a list of those that are applicable?

Otherwise, this is a lot to take in, but is awesome. Well done.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 03:54 PM
Paladins don't normally have Orisons, is there a list of those that are applicable?

Otherwise, this is a lot to take in, but is awesome. Well done.

Ooh, good point.

Morty
2007-02-01, 03:57 PM
Hmm, good attempt on making Chaotic and Evil mantles. I like it. But still, I don't think that wings is good idea.

Khantalas
2007-02-01, 04:01 PM
Uh, funny thing. Chaotic and Lawful mantles both have the ability to summon a mount. That, I get. But, they both mention fighting against evil. Not only that, but the lawful mount is summoned from celestial planes and the chaotic mount is summoned from fiendish planes.

Were those overlooked, or intentional?

Baron Corm
2007-02-01, 04:09 PM
hmm... seven mantles. i get improved evasion, ac equal to cha, immunity to mind affecting effects, +5 to all saving throws, ignore most if not all damage reduction, an attack bonus equal to cha, 5/- damage reduction, and 10/silver damage reduction. plus two good saves and a spell list.

the improved evasion plus the rest means you really won't worry about failing saving throws, you get almost full barbarian damage reduction and then some, and focusing on CHA over strength will make your damage a little lower but your armor will be a lot better, your saving throws will be a lot better, you can heal a lot more, and ignoring damage reduction means you'll do more than your other melee friends anyway. and if you're evil you can deal a huge amount of damage to any living creature as well. on a smite you add your CHA again, aka you will hit anything.

personally i would grant two mantles, or specify the ones i listed and maybe others as greater mantles and allow two of those or four of the lesser ones.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 04:22 PM
hmm... seven mantles. i get improved evasion, ac equal to cha, immunity to mind affecting effects, +5 to all saving throws, ignore most if not all damage reduction, an attack bonus equal to cha, 5/- damage reduction, and 10/silver damage reduction. plus two good saves and a spell list.

Of course, with those selections, you can't do any of the following: allow an ally to die near you; drink potions or alcohol; must pray several times a day; cannot boast about your accomplishments; cannot stand down; cannot perform a variety of useful combat tactics; or smite an incorrect creature.

As for the mount thing: Yeah, that's an error, but I'm not sure how to fix it.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-02-01, 04:26 PM
CG Paladins?!

SCORE.
Daddy likes.

Shazzbaa
2007-02-01, 04:31 PM
Darnit, Fax! You came out with the new version just as I had finished doing this:

Abstinence
--no drugs, alcohol, or similar (including potions)

1st -- immune to poison
5th -- immune to mundane disease, +1 to resist mind-affecting effects
10th -- immune to magical poison, +2 to resist mind-affecting effects
15th -- immune to magical disease, +3 to resist mind-affecting effects
20th -- immune to harmful mind-affecting effects
-- (1/day): +1 CHA mod (sacred bonus) to resist mind-affecting affects to all allies within 5+5'/3 paladin levels.

Charity
--tithe 20% of all earnings/treasure

-- (sacred bonus) +1/2 class lvl (round up) to Diplomacy checks
-- (1/day) Charm Person as spell for rounds = CHA mod
7th -- Charm Person becomes Charm Monster
14th -- (2/day) either Charm monster or Mass Charm Person

Conviction
--never question faith, attack member of faith, or smite non-evil (non-chaotic) creature.

--attacks considered Bludg., Slash., and Pierc., for overcoming DR
10th -- attacks also considered Magical, Lawful, and Silver for overcoming DR
15th -- attacks also considered Admantine, Mithral, and Holy for overcoming DR
20th -- ingore first ten points of foe's DR

Diligence
--examine everything thoroughly, attempt every legitimate action before giving up.

--Detect Evil as spell, at will
5th -- Darkvision 30'
10th -- low-light vision
15th -- Scent 30'
20th -- Blindsight 15'

Grace
--protect allies, no ally w/in 60' falls before paladin

--paladin & allies w/in 30' gain (sacred bonus) +1/4 paladin class lvl to Reflex
5th -- paladin & allies w/in 5' +5'/3 class lvl gain Evasion (while light/no armour)
10th -- paladin gains Evasion (while medium armour)
15th -- paladin gains Improved Evasion (while light/no armour)
20th -- paladin gains Improved Evasion (while medium armour)

Honesty
--no lying, no Bluff check (except for Feint), no Forgery use

--(sacred bonus) +1/2 class lvl (round up) to Sense Motive
--(1/day) See Invisibility for rounds =CHA mod
7th -- See Invisibility becomes Invisibility Purge
14th -- (2/day) either Invisibility Purge or see w/ True Seeing

Honor
--no trip, feint, or flanking benefit

--(sacred bonus) +CHA mod to melee attack rolls

Humility
--humble, no boasting or exaggeration, never use social status to influence others

--paladin & allies w/in 30' gain (sacred bonus) +1/4 paladin class lvl to Will
5th -- (sacred bonus) +CHA mod to AC

Justice
--uphold law, never break law or associate w/ lawbreakers

--detect Chaos as spell, at will
5th -- Smite also works against Chaotic creatures; against CE creatures, Smite does double damage and automatically confirms a threatened critical

Mercy
--never knowingly kill non-evil creature or perform Coup de Grace

--non-lethal damage w/out penalty
--deals +1d6 extra non-lethal damage for every 3 paladin lvl
--Smite Evil can do non-lethal

Patience
--never attack rashly, never attack 1st combat round

--needs only 4 hours of sleep a night
7th -- only 1 meal a week
14th -- no need to breathe
20th -- no need to eat or sleep

Peace
--never enter combat w/out trying to prevent it or witness combat w/out trying to prevent it

--Hold Person as a SLA, (CHA mod/day); caster lvl= class lvl
5th -- expend 2 uses to Hold Monster
10th -- expend 3 uses to Mass Hold Person
15th -- expend 4 uses to Mass Hold Monster
**IF a creature perishes while held under any form of this, paladin loses aspects of this mantle**

Perseverance
--must be resolute; must not stand down from a beatable fight, must not give up

--allies w/in 5' +5'/3 paladin lvl radius gain DR 1/-, + 1/- for every 5 paladin class lvl
--(1/day) for rounds =CHA mod, magical aura grants paladin & allies SR = class level +CHA mod

Piety
--must pray 5x a day, 1 hr per session, at least 1 hr between periods of prayer

--(sacred bonus) +1/4 class lvl to all Saving Throws
--allies w/in 5' +5'/3 paladin lvl gain +paladin's CHA mod (sacred bonus) to all saving throws

Prudence
--never willingly allow an ally to put themselves in great danger w/out attempting a less dangerous situation first

--paladin & allies w/in 5' +5'/2 paladin lvl gain +paladin's WIS mod (insight bonus) to AC

Purity
--never willingly commit evil act or associate w/ evil or undead creatures

--gain ability to turn undead as a cleric 4 lvl lower than his own lvl. (unless this would result in a cleric lvl of 0 or less)

Redemption
--forgive those who err in the name of good

Lay on hands gains new abilites:
--Remove Disease for 15 pts healing
--Remove Curse as spell for 20 pts healing
--Atonement as spell for 40 points (cannot affect the paladin)

Temperance
--can't attack in the first combat round

--paladin & allies w/in 5' +5'/2 paladin lvl gain +paladin's CHA mod (sacred bonus) to ranged attack rolls

Valor
--can't coerce or influence through intimidation

--immune to fear effects
--allies w/in 5' + 5'/2 paladin lvl gain +1/2 paladin's class lvl (sacred bonus) to fear effects

Zeal
--must accept any honorable challenge, never smite non-evil (or non-chaotic w/ Justice) creature

-- +1d6 sacred damage when using Smite
5th -- improves to 2d6
10th -- improves to 3d6
15th --improves to 4d6
20th --improves to 5d6

....for easy digestion, 'cause I have a hard time analysing that much stuff in paragraphs.

Um, so, now I suppose I'll go through and see if you changed anything, but this took me a long time so I don't know if I'll get to the new ones right away. ^^;

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 04:34 PM
Darnit, Fax! You came out with the new version just as I had finished doing this:

Abstinence
--no drugs, alcohol, or similar (including potions)

1st -- immune to poison
5th -- immune to mundane disease, +1 to resist mind-affecting effects
10th -- immune to magical poison, +2 to resist mind-affecting effects
15th -- immune to magical disease, +3 to resist mind-affecting effects
20th -- immune to harmful mind-affecting effects
-- (1/day): +1 CHA mod (sacred bonus) to resist mind-affecting affects to all allies within 5+5'/3 paladin levels.

Charity
--tithe 20% of all earnings/treasure

-- (sacred bonus) +1/2 class lvl (round up) to Diplomacy checks
-- (1/day) Charm Person as spell for rounds = CHA mod
7th -- Charm Person becomes Charm Monster
14th -- (2/day) either Charm monster or Mass Charm Person

Conviction
--never question faith, attack member of faith, or smite non-evil (non-chaotic) creature.

--attacks considered Bludg., Slash., and Pierc., for overcoming DR
10th -- attacks also considered Magical, Lawful, and Silver for overcoming DR
15th -- attacks also considered Admantine, Mithral, and Holy for overcoming DR
20th -- ingore first ten points of foe's DR

Diligence
--examine everything thoroughly, attempt every legitimate action before giving up.

--Detect Evil as spell, at will
5th -- Darkvision 30'
10th -- low-light vision
15th -- Scent 30'
20th -- Blindsight 15'

Grace
--protect allies, no ally w/in 60' falls before paladin

--paladin & allies w/in 30' gain (sacred bonus) +1/4 paladin class lvl to Reflex
5th -- paladin & allies w/in 5' +5'/3 class lvl gain Evasion (while light/no armour)
10th -- paladin gains Evasion (while medium armour)
15th -- paladin gains Improved Evasion (while light/no armour)
20th -- paladin gains Improved Evasion (while medium armour)

Honesty
--no lying, no Bluff check (except for Feint), no Forgery use

--(sacred bonus) +1/2 class lvl (round up) to Sense Motive
--(1/day) See Invisibility for rounds =CHA mod
7th -- See Invisibility becomes Invisibility Purge
14th -- (2/day) either Invisibility Purge or see w/ True Seeing

Honor
--no trip, feint, or flanking benefit

--(sacred bonus) +CHA mod to melee attack rolls

Humility
--humble, no boasting or exaggeration, never use social status to influence others

--paladin & allies w/in 30' gain (sacred bonus) +1/4 paladin class lvl to Will
5th -- (sacred bonus) +CHA mod to AC

Justice
--uphold law, never break law or associate w/ lawbreakers

--detect Chaos as spell, at will
5th -- Smite also works against Chaotic creatures; against CE creatures, Smite does double damage and automatically confirms a threatened critical

Mercy
--never knowingly kill non-evil creature or perform Coup de Grace

--non-lethal damage w/out penalty
--deals +1d6 extra non-lethal damage for every 3 paladin lvl
--Smite Evil can do non-lethal

Patience
--never attack rashly, never attack 1st combat round

--needs only 4 hours of sleep a night
7th -- only 1 meal a week
14th -- no need to breathe
20th -- no need to eat or sleep

Peace
--never enter combat w/out trying to prevent it or witness combat w/out trying to prevent it

--Hold Person as a SLA, (CHA mod/day); caster lvl= class lvl
5th -- expend 2 uses to Hold Monster
10th -- expend 3 uses to Mass Hold Person
15th -- expend 4 uses to Mass Hold Monster
**IF a creature perishes while held under any form of this, paladin loses aspects of this mantle**

Perseverance
--must be resolute; must not stand down from a beatable fight, must not give up

--allies w/in 5' +5'/3 paladin lvl radius gain DR 1/-, + 1/- for every 5 paladin class lvl
--(1/day) for rounds =CHA mod, magical aura grants paladin & allies SR = class level +CHA mod

Piety
--must pray 5x a day, 1 hr per session, at least 1 hr between periods of prayer

--(sacred bonus) +1/4 class lvl to all Saving Throws
--allies w/in 5' +5'/3 paladin lvl gain +paladin's CHA mod (sacred bonus) to all saving throws

Prudence
--never willingly allow an ally to put themselves in great danger w/out attempting a less dangerous situation first

--paladin & allies w/in 5' +5'/2 paladin lvl gain +paladin's WIS mod (insight bonus) to AC

Purity
--never willingly commit evil act or associate w/ evil or undead creatures

--gain ability to turn undead as a cleric 4 lvl lower than his own lvl. (unless this would result in a cleric lvl of 0 or less)

Redemption
--forgive those who err in the name of good

Lay on hands gains new abilites:
--Remove Disease for 15 pts healing
--Remove Curse as spell for 20 pts healing
--Atonement as spell for 40 points (cannot affect the paladin)

Temperance
--can't attack in the first combat round

--paladin & allies w/in 5' +5'/2 paladin lvl gain +paladin's CHA mod (sacred bonus) to ranged attack rolls

Valor
--can't coerce or influence through intimidation

--immune to fear effects
--allies w/in 5' + 5'/2 paladin lvl gain +1/2 paladin's class lvl (sacred bonus) to fear effects

Zeal
--must accept any honorable challenge, never smite non-evil (or non-chaotic w/ Justice) creature

-- +1d6 sacred damage when using Smite
5th -- improves to 2d6
10th -- improves to 3d6
15th --improves to 4d6
20th --improves to 5d6

....for easy digestion, 'cause I have a hard time analysing that much stuff in paragraphs.

Um, so, now I suppose I'll go through and see if you changed anything, but this took me a long time so I don't know if I'll get to the new ones right away. ^^;

The old ones remained widely unchanged. The new ones, however, are...well, new. If you want, I'll mock together a basic interpretation.

EDIT: OMG I JUST REALIZED THAT THE SPOILER BOX IS A DIFFERENT COLOR THAN THE GENERIC TEXT BOX WTF.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-01, 05:22 PM
Diligence should allow Evil Paladins to detect good rather than evil, no? Also the Lawful and Chaotic mounts should be called from "celestial or infernal" and "arboreal (?) or abyssal" realms, repectively.

Nice concept, by the way.

Indon
2007-02-01, 05:27 PM
This is even _better_ than the first version, and that's a feat with a BAB requirement of at least +10.

I'm seriously contemplating replacing the standard Paladin class with this version for all campaigns I run in the future.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 05:29 PM
Diligence should allow Evil Paladins to detect good rather than evil, no? Also the Lawful and Chaotic mounts should be called from "celestial or infernal" and "arboreal (?) or abyssal" realms, repectively.

Nice concept, by the way.

Altered Diligence to read "alignment opposite to their own". Alliance/Communion now read "extraplanar", therefore letting the Paladin decide for himself.

And Indon? Thank you.

Proven_Paradox
2007-02-01, 05:41 PM
Okay, I do like the new version, but I have a few criticisms from scanning over it semi-quick.

First off: Extravagance is too difficult to keep. I think you should make it so that instead of choosing a single type of extravagant food, you should make the condiion something like "The paladin may never spend less than X gp for a meal, and may never miss a meal." I think 10 would be a good amount; that makes a daily upkeep of 30 gp, which can get draining after a while.

Next: Fearlessness seems out of place in evil. Perhaps you could give it a different name? The effects aren't the problem, it's just that fearlessness seems like a bad name for an evil mantle.

Freedom's atonement: Why not make it something like "To atone for violating the tenats of the Freedom mantle, the paladin must free a group of imprisoned people from captors with a combined CR of the paladin's level or greater." Destroying an artifact just seems like it wouldn't fit.


Last thing: I propose new names for the paladin depending on thier alignment, kind of like one uses a different name for spellcasters depending on thier specialty school (evoker, divener, ect.)

Lawful Good: Crusader
Lawful Evil: Tyrant
Chaotic Good: Rebel
Chaotic Evil: Reaver

Or something along those lines. Just so people don't immediately think "Lawful Good" when they hear paladin.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 05:53 PM
First off: Extravagance is too difficult to keep. I think you should make it so that instead of choosing a single type of extravagant food, you should make the condiion something like "The paladin may never spend less than X gp for a meal, and may never miss a meal." I think 10 would be a good amount; that makes a daily upkeep of 30 gp, which can get draining after a while.
Good call. I'll change that.


Next: Fearlessness seems out of place in evil. Perhaps you could give it a different name? The effects aren't the problem, it's just that fearlessness seems like a bad name for an evil mantle.

Audacity?


Freedom's atonement: Why not make it something like "To atone for violating the tenats of the Freedom mantle, the paladin must free a group of imprisoned people from captors with a combined CR of the paladin's level or greater." Destroying an artifact just seems like it wouldn't fit.

Also good.



Last thing: I propose new names for the paladin depending on thier alignment, kind of like one uses a different name for spellcasters depending on thier specialty school (evoker, divener, ect.)

Lawful Good: Crusader
Lawful Evil: Tyrant
Chaotic Good: Rebel
Chaotic Evil: Reaver

Or something along those lines. Just so people don't immediately think "Lawful Good" when they hear paladin.

Hm. Okay.

Indon
2007-02-01, 05:56 PM
Audacity?


I'd use 'Grimness'. It's a good word.

And if we call non-LG paladins something else, then we're _encouraging_ people to think "Lawful Good" when they hear "Paladin"...

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 05:59 PM
I'd use 'Grimness'. It's a good word.

Perhaps "Stoicism"?

Khantalas
2007-02-01, 06:03 PM
Hey, here's an idiotic idea. We should have neutral paladins. With neutral mantles.

And the Book of Neurotic Balance.

Legoman
2007-02-01, 06:14 PM
Good call. I'll change that.



Audacity?



Also good.




Hm. Okay.

ToB already has a class called Crusader, stick with LG as Paladin.

Mauril Everleaf
2007-02-01, 06:14 PM
Why is that dumb? People can be just as devoted to balance as they are to good or evil. Mind you I don't think I could stomach the idea of a Chaotic Neutral Paladin.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 06:16 PM
Why is that dumb? People can be just as devoted to balance as they are to good or evil. Mind you I don't think I could stomach the idea of a Chaotic Neutral Paladin.

Right. Devoted neutral people are called "Druids".

Mewtarthio
2007-02-01, 06:17 PM
Say, would it be a good idea if the paladins were required to complete a task with a requirement similar to that of atonment (but probably less harsh) in order to take the Mantle in the first place?

Mauril Everleaf
2007-02-01, 06:20 PM
Right. Devoted neutral people are called "Druids".
But they aren't paladins. Devoted evils are called Blackguards. But you are making a paladin of evil, so why not of Lawful Neutral. Militantly maintaining the balance, but not giving a care for the forest.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 06:21 PM
Mmmmmmaybe.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-01, 06:32 PM
Very nice. I like how the powers now can suit any kind of paladin's flavor.
I noticed they are mostly about alignment extremes: Lawful Good, Lawful Evil, Chaotic Good, Chaotic Evil. You could make one for True Neutral too.

Caelestion
2007-02-01, 06:43 PM
Outstanding Fax! *duly copied to Word document for easy digest later*

Eighth_Seraph
2007-02-01, 07:13 PM
Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Humility mantle can atone by offering his services to a great leader for one month.
That's...not very humbling. How about offering his services to a lowly woodsman as a servant in his cottage?

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 07:14 PM
Mantle Cheat Sheet:
Good Mantles
Abstinence
-no alcohol, potions, drugs, etc.
+gradual immunity to poison, disease, mind-affecting effects
+aura: Cha to Will saves

Charity
-tithe 20%
+bonus to diplomacy, charm SLAs

Humility
-no exaggeration, no social influence
+aura bonus to will saves
+Cha to AC

Mercy
-no killing non-evil or coup de grace
+nonlethal without penalty
+extra nonlethal, nonlethal smite

Peace
-must prevent conflict
+hold SLAs
+calm emotions aura

Prudence
-must attempt to find safe solution
+Wis to AC aura

Purity
-cannot associate with evil
+turning

Redemption
-must forgive
+new Lay on Hands features

Temperance
-cannot attack in first round
+Cha to ranged attacks

Valor
-cannot intimidate
+immune to fear
+aura of fear resist

Lawful Mantles
Alliance
-must protect mount
+gain mount

Conviction
-cannot question faith, smite unsmitable creatures
+overcome various DRs

Diligence
-must attempt multiple courses of action
+gain detect and sense improvements

Honesty
-no feinting, forgery, lying
+Sense Motive bonus
+vision SLAs

Honor
-no feinting, tripping, flanking
+Cha to melee attacks

Justice
-cannot associate with lawbreakers, break a law
+detect chaos, smite chaotic

Patience
-cannot act in first round of combat
+lose need to sleep, eat, breathe

Perseverance
-cannot give up
+DR/SR aura

Piety
-pray daily
+bonus to saves
+Cha to saves aura

Zeal
-cannot stand down, no smiting unsmitable
+extra smiting damage

Evil Mantles
Audacity
-cannot be intimidated or threatened
+immune to fear
+fear resistance aura

Authority
-cannot take orders
+rebuke undead

Conflict
-must promote violence
+rage/heroism SLAs

Deceit
-must prevent direct threats
+Wis to AC aura

Discretion
-cannot take damage in first round
+Cha to ranged attacks

Extravagance
-must eat richly
+immune to disease, poison, mind-affecting effects
+resist mind-affecting aura

Greed
-spend 20% of earnings
+diplomacy bonus
+Charm SLAs

Merciless
-cannot deal nonlethal, must kill opponents
+bonus vs. previously damaged enemies

Pride
-cannot display submission
+will save aura
+Cha to AC

Survival
-cannot aid allies when damaged
+Reflex/Evasion aura

Vengeance
-must kill foes
+new Lay on Hands powers

Chaotic Mantles
Anarchy
-must not submit to authority
+double rolling for damage

Bravado
-cannot become afraid, smite unsmitable
+add Intimidate, bonus to indimidate
+smite lawful

Communion
-must protect mount
+gain mount

Discord
-cannot tell whole truth, roll 1 on bluff
+add bluff, new Lay on Hands power

Entropy
-must kill foes
+debilitating aura

Freedom
-cannot arrest or command
+dispel/freedom SLAs

Liberty
-fight for justice, cannot prejudice
+diplomacy bonus
+charm SLAs

Luck
-cannot roll nat 1
+reroll Cha rolls/day

Triumph
-cannot stand down, smite unsmitable
+overcome DR

Vision
-cannot lose senses
+detect law, senses, SLA

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 07:15 PM
That's...not very humbling. How about offering his services to a lowly woodsman as a servant in his cottage?

Good call.

Talyn
2007-02-01, 07:50 PM
Some of the Evil mantles worry me, especially the ones that require you turning on our teammates. A Tyrant (or Enforcer, if one is the type who prefers to follow rather than to lead) might be willing to put himself at risk for more vulnerable teammates should that be a tactical advantage.
Survival, in particular, but Pride and Authority as well, would make an evil anti-paladin a bit too much of a hindrance for an evil group to take.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-02-01, 08:25 PM
Deceit
The lengths that a Paladin will go to protect himself knows no bounds. You lose all benefits of this mantle if you ever put yourself in direct danger without first trying to a safer alternative (of course, putting allies in danger is fine, especially if it gets you out of danger).

The Paladin--and all allies within 5' + 5'/2 Paladin levels--receives an insight bonus to Armor Class equal to his Wisdom modifier.
The monk has been given yet another reason to cry herself to sleep at night. Honestly, I'm not sure how poor Ember can still walk in the condition her toes are in.

Proven_Paradox
2007-02-01, 08:46 PM
I like the idea of paladins being the epitome of the extreme alignments. The most lawful, the most chaotic, the most... uh... good? goodest? Damn you, English language, for not having the word I seek here!

My point is, I don't like the idea of neutral anything paladins/mantles. If you wanna try it, go ahead, but I think I'd point people trying to be true neutral to the druid, as Fax mentioned before.

Another thing that was brought up was the fact that evil mantles tend to discourage team play... A tyrant/enforcer (another good name for 'em) will have access to the law mantles, and there are several in there that are a little better for a team situation. A reaver isn't SUPPOSED to be a good team player, acording to the description for chaotic evil. So yeah, I'd say the tyrants/enforcers have enough to work with. I've already got a campaign in my head where the BBEG is a reaver, and they are uniquely suited to that roll.

Also, I just noticed. It appears there is no chaotic mantle that grants law smiting, but Justice in the lawful mantles grants smite chaos. WHY?

Caelestion
2007-02-01, 09:17 PM
Just a thought, but the Evil mantles shouldn't grant sacred bonuses. Those should be profane bonuses.

Icewalker
2007-02-01, 09:45 PM
I love it, the old paladin never seemed cool enough.

the Mercy mantle shouldn't let the Paladin allow others to perform Coup de Graces either, if it is within his power to try to stop them from doing so.

Question on the evil mantle, Authority. What exactly qualifies as an order? If your PC can come up with a way to justify his own reasons for doing so, then it doesn't count? What if someone orders you to do something or he will kill you, does obeying count as following an order?

Shazzbaa
2007-02-01, 10:32 PM
Finally read all the mantles. Most of all, I'm just AMAZED at your creativity and ability to make all of the fluff fit so well. I mean, while reading the Evil mantles, I could actually imagine an evil paladin upholding these ideals, and the benefits that came with them make sense (I briefly questioned Greed's relevance, but then realised that I could easily see a paladin who felt that gold was not to be wasted, for gold is power, power over men, and such power should be kept and weilded...)

So, yeah, wow, Fax. These are awesome. ::applause::

The only thing I'm a little weird about is some of the Chaos mantles.

I mean, you've got stuff like this:

The Paladin has taken a vow to resist authority and promote the freedom of the individual.[...]
The Paladin commits himself to freeing all creatures from magical constraints across the planes.[...]
The Paladin is committed to freeing all creatures from needless rules and regulations.[...]

But then the wording of some of these really doesn't fit with that ideal. Like...

Bravado
The Paladin is certain of himself and his actions, and seeks to coerce others into his fold--with force, if necessary. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he fails an Intimidate check, becomes frightened, shaken, or panicked, or smites a creature that is unaffected by his smite attack.

The name "Bravado" has gotten across to me a meaning that fits very well; a Paladin who is totally sure of himself and won't stand down to anyone, won't let anyone ("the man") push him around, etc. Very Chaotic and Paladin-y at the same time, and works well with the ability to smite Lawful creatures. But the flavour text here doesn't fit at all with the Chaotic ideal, IMO. Could you possibly reword this to be more about the "standing up to the man" and powerful self-assurance aspects and less about forceful coercion? I mean, they'd essentially be used the same way, just the latter strikes me in a very LE way.

One more nitpick:


Communion
The Paladin has contracted a subordinate creature to further his cause.
Why does the Lawful mantle's "Alliance" ability have flavour text that make them sound like equals or near it, while the Chaotic one sounds like he conscripted a servant? I see that it's not got any sacred vows and whatnot involved, which makes sense when compared to the lawful version, but taken on its own it sounds a little weird.

I also wonder what's Chaotic about "Vision," but as they're all just deities' gifts I can totally overlook it not necessarily fitting a theme. :smallwink:

Sorry, one other question:

Conflict
The Paladin thrives on conflict, and loses all benefit of this mantle if they fail to try and escalates a conflict into violence.

The wording on this one confuses me a little; is it supposed to be that if a paladin doesn't try and make a conflict end in a fight, they lose the mantle?

Other than my random whining about a select few flavour texts, this is amazing and makes me gleeful. So much of this is so well-done in terms of concept. Now, I can't critique balance, but I'm sure as anything going to show this to every gamer friend I have.

To those who do know about balance -- what's your vote? How would this class balance in comparison to other core classes?

Proven_Paradox
2007-02-01, 11:06 PM
Well, as far as balance goes, it loses a lot of the powers that the original paladin got, but gives them the option of getting them back and then some, plus a tone of versatility, as well as the ability to write one's own code, an advantage the core paladin lacks. I'd say this is way stronger than most of the core non-primary-spellcaster combat classes. However, I also think all of the core non-primary-spellcaster class could use a boost (and I started giving them that in my balancing tweak thread I started earlier) so I don't think that's a bad thing. From what I've heard, the new standard for melee classes are found in the Tome of Battle, a book I do not have access to, so I can't say with those.

I'm somewhat new to the whole "is this homebrew balanced" question, but that's what it looks like to me all the same.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 11:26 PM
The monk has been given yet another reason to cry herself to sleep at night. Honestly, I'm not sure how poor Ember can still walk in the condition her toes are in.

The monk is rather used to it now, I'm sure, what with the Ninja, the Swordsage...


Also, I just noticed. It appears there is no chaotic mantle that grants law smiting, but Justice in the lawful mantles grants smite chaos. WHY?

Bravado lets you smite lawful.


Just a thought, but the Evil mantles shouldn't grant sacred bonuses. Those should be profane bonuses.

Aren't they? I thought I got them all. I'll fix that later.


the Mercy mantle shouldn't let the Paladin allow others to perform Coup de Graces either, if it is within his power to try to stop them from doing so.

Question on the evil mantle, Authority. What exactly qualifies as an order? If your PC can come up with a way to justify his own reasons for doing so, then it doesn't count? What if someone orders you to do something or he will kill you, does obeying count as following an order?

Probably not. And justifications for Authority should be based on merit.


Finally read all the mantles. Most of all, I'm just AMAZED at your creativity and ability to make all of the fluff fit so well. I mean, while reading the Evil mantles, I could actually imagine an evil paladin upholding these ideals, and the benefits that came with them make sense (I briefly questioned Greed's relevance, but then realised that I could easily see a paladin who felt that gold was not to be wasted, for gold is power, power over men, and such power should be kept and weilded...)

So, yeah, wow, Fax. These are awesome. ::applause::
Thanks.


The only thing I'm a little weird about is some of the Chaos mantles.

[...]

The name "Bravado" has gotten across to me a meaning that fits very well; a Paladin who is totally sure of himself and won't stand down to anyone, won't let anyone ("the man") push him around, etc. Very Chaotic and Paladin-y at the same time, and works well with the ability to smite Lawful creatures. But the flavour text here doesn't fit at all with the Chaotic ideal, IMO. Could you possibly reword this to be more about the "standing up to the man" and powerful self-assurance aspects and less about forceful coercion? I mean, they'd essentially be used the same way, just the latter strikes me in a very LE way.
I do have brainfreeze occasionally. How would you word it?


One more nitpick: why does the Lawful mantle's "Alliance" ability have flavour text that make them sound like equals or near it, while the Chaotic one sounds like he conscripted a servant? I see that it's not got any sacred vows and whatnot involved, which makes sense when compared to the lawful version, but taken on its own it sounds a little weird.

It does. Maybe I'll swap them.


I also wonder what's Chaotic about "Vision," but as they're all just deities' gifts I can totally overlook it not necessarily fitting a theme. :smallwink:

It just fit. And I wanted a tenth Chaotic mantle.


Sorry, one other question:

The wording on this one confuses me a little; is it supposed to be that if a paladin doesn't try and make a conflict end in a fight, they lose the mantle?

Yes.


Well, as far as balance goes, it loses a lot of the powers that the original paladin got, but gives them the option of getting them back and then some, plus a tone of versatility, as well as the ability to write one's own code, an advantage the core paladin lacks. I'd say this is way stronger than most of the core non-primary-spellcaster combat classes. However, I also think all of the core non-primary-spellcaster class could use a boost (and I started giving them that in my balancing tweak thread I started earlier) so I don't think that's a bad thing. From what I've heard, the new standard for melee classes are found in the Tome of Battle, a book I do not have access to, so I can't say with those.

The ToB classes are more powerful by themselves than this class. This Paladin is designed to be a team-player (well, at least the good/lawful ones are), and is therefore more effective when with more people.

TheOOB
2007-02-02, 12:25 AM
Some of the Evil mantles worry me, especially the ones that require you turning on our teammates. A Tyrant (or Enforcer, if one is the type who prefers to follow rather than to lead) might be willing to put himself at risk for more vulnerable teammates should that be a tactical advantage.
Survival, in particular, but Pride and Authority as well, would make an evil anti-paladin a bit too much of a hindrance for an evil group to take.

Well, a mortal scion of all that is evil isn't a very nice person to be around, no matter how evil you are. Heck a good party often times has troubles dealing with their paladin. An evil person is defined as being willing to harm others for person gain, so it makes sense that a someone who is totally evil would be willing to harm pretty much anyone.

Several of the evil mantles are very selfish, survival in paticular, but few of them make you unable to work in a group, except mayby Authority, but a paladin wis the Authority mantle isn't likely to travel in a group of people who don't follow his orders, he'd probally rather fight alongside unquestioning undead servants gained through his turn undead ability.

Basically, if you have to be a nice guy and work together with your group, don't be the mortal icon of all that is evil.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-02, 12:48 AM
Reading the mantle's resume, I'm amazed on how you not even made it workable and reasonable, you managed to add all the typical paladin stuff, including pre-3.0 stuff. Awesome.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-02, 12:51 AM
Some of the Evil mantles worry me, especially the ones that require you turning on our teammates. A Tyrant (or Enforcer, if one is the type who prefers to follow rather than to lead) might be willing to put himself at risk for more vulnerable teammates should that be a tactical advantage.
Survival, in particular, but Pride and Authority as well, would make an evil anti-paladin a bit too much of a hindrance for an evil group to take.
Well, they are evil, duh :smalltongue:

Seriously, yes, the evil mantles are for paladins (for a more general name, we could just call them knights or something) that really are in there for the evil stuff.
A Lawful Evil paladin would be manipulative. He would be loyal, but trying to revert the results to benefit himself.
A Chaotic Evil would be simple the kind of warrior that strikes first, cheats, do anything to save himself, even if at the cost of the companions.

The Chaotic Good would be the typical "rebel against the evil empire" thing, with the Lawful Good being our everyday paladin, only with new powers.

Neek
2007-02-02, 09:42 AM
Well, a good Paladin is still hard to work with. If you play a staunch, uptight keeper of Divine Justice, you can be as a hindrance (always stopping the party from raiding dead bodies, screaming into a room while the rogue attempts to sneak attack--because sneaking is bad--selling out a party member to the church because they're "evil"). So an evil Paladin would be just as difficult unless you made it worth his while.

Mind you, I think evil == selfish, good == altruistic. So perhaps that's a good basis for my comparison. Overall, this remapping of the Paladin fits well; beforehand, Paladins were one-dimensional creatures built off a retarded priest/fighter build with an ill-defined "ethos" as a balancing point. The new Paladin is much more customizable (a benefit that Fighters always had, and something the Ranger sort of got in 3.5)--so, I can't say it's too bad.

I'm not a judge for balancing issues, I'd have to see a concept like this in play...

Shazzbaa
2007-02-02, 09:52 AM
I do have brainfreeze occasionally. How would you word it?

Hrrrmmm... I'll try. Maybe... "The Paladin is certain of himself and his actions, and will not back down to others' authority. More often, his powerful self-assurance sways others to his cause. He loses all aspects of this mantle..."
Something like that? Not sure. Does that fit to you?

Matthew
2007-02-02, 04:35 PM
I can never understand why Paladin's don't get access to Swim, Climb and Jump as Class Skills.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-02, 04:50 PM
I can never understand why Paladin's don't get access to Swim, Climb and Jump as Class Skills.

Because they only get 2+int.

Mauril Everleaf
2007-02-02, 05:05 PM
Doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to use them, just makes it less likely that they will choose it. They are (according to old edition tradition) a fighter sub-class, so they should get most of the general fighter skills.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-02, 05:08 PM
Doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to use them, just makes it less likely that they will choose it. They are (according to old edition tradition) a fighter sub-class, so they should get most of the general fighter skills.

True enough. I'll add that in.

Golthur
2007-02-02, 05:11 PM
I can never understand why Paladin's don't get access to Swim, Climb and Jump as Class Skills.

Because swimming, climbing, and jumping is what squires are for. :tongue:

MandibleBones
2007-02-02, 05:15 PM
...

I may have to play a Paladin again now. Drat. :)

Matthew
2007-02-02, 05:23 PM
Because swimming, climbing, and jumping is what squires are for. :tongue:

*laughs* What about Squires who are Paladins?


Doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to use them, just makes it less likely that they will choose it. They are (according to old edition tradition) a fighter sub-class, so they should get most of the general fighter skills.

Exactly. Though, for completeness, it's worth noting they started as a Sub Class of Fighter (First Edition), then became a Sub Class of Cavalier (Unearthed Arcana), then a Sub Class of Warrior (Second Edition) before finally becoming their own Class (Third Edition).

Yogi
2007-02-02, 11:57 PM
Nitpick.

The triumph mantle says: "At tenth level, all his attacks are also considered magical, lawful, and silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction."

Do you mean chaotic instead?

TheOOB
2007-02-03, 12:09 AM
Nitpick.

The triumph mantle says: "At tenth level, all his attacks are also considered magical, lawful, and silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction."

Do you mean chaotic instead?

I'd imagine, though it wouldn't be the only case of a creature having strange aspects of overcoming damage reduction. Case in point, a Rakshasa's natural attacks count as good and piercing for the purposes of overcoming DR, but not evil.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-02-03, 12:33 AM
Well, in case you're interested, Fax, I'm playing one of these right now in a new (and my first) local game.
I'll let you know how he plays!

TheOOB
2007-02-03, 01:27 AM
Well, in case you're interested, Fax, I'm playing one of these right now in a new (and my first) local game.
I'll let you know how he plays!

What alignment/mantles are you using, just curious.

MeklorIlavator
2007-02-03, 09:11 AM
Wow, this makes me want to play paladin again. I think it is pretty good, but for abstenince(the mantle that forbids potions), do oils count? Just wondering because you technically don't injest them?

Also, would you think about doing a Ranger rewrite? Or do you think that the ranger doesn't need it?

Edit: If the only way to atone for your animal dying is to resserectit, and if you lose the mantle if it dies, how can you lose the penalties associated with the animal dying by leveling up? You say if you lose a mantel, you cannot level up.

Green Bean
2007-02-03, 09:23 AM
This is awesome! I really like the way that you made the paladin more fighter-like (in that you can have alot of different ways to play them).

Fax Celestis
2007-02-03, 03:15 PM
Wow, this makes me want to play paladin again. I think it is pretty good, but for abstenince(the mantle that forbids potions), do oils count? Just wondering because you technically don't injest them?

Also, would you think about doing a Ranger rewrite? Or do you think that the ranger doesn't need it?

Edit: If the only way to atone for your animal dying is to resserectit, and if you lose the mantle if it dies, how can you lose the penalties associated with the animal dying by leveling up? You say if you lose a mantel, you cannot level up.

Oils do not count for you are not ingesting them.

I'd consider a Ranger rewrite. I'm currently working on a Sorceror rebuild and a wizard-into-eight-classes rebuild (with Were-Sandwich).

The mount text was largely copy-paste. I'll edit it a bit.

Last_resort_33
2007-02-03, 05:10 PM
I know that there is a bit more that needs to be done, but I can update that as and when. so that I could give it to my DM in an easy format, I have formatted it into the familiar WOTC way and grabbed some pics from the internet... if anyone is interested in having this in a PDF file file then the like is:

http://pedrick.franks.org.uk/RevisedPaladin2_0.pdf

ExHunterEmerald
2007-02-04, 05:17 AM
What alignment/mantles are you using, just curious.

So far a (VERY) Chaotic Good type.
Current mantles are Valor and Prudence.

PaladinBoy
2007-02-04, 10:05 PM
Wow. This new paladin is devastating.

While I do like paladins, I get the feeling that this is a little too powerful. From what I can see, the detect evil, special mount, turn undead, divine health, aura of courage, and remove disease abilities have been removed. These are replaced by the mantle of faith abilities, more frequent smiting, and divine transformation.

I did notice (I only looked at the Good mantles) that many of the removed abilities can be replaced with mantle abilities. And many of the mantle abilities can do even more. As written, it seems that this paladin will beat the crud out of an unchanged paladin.

The restrictions don't seem to help much. Sure, they limit what you can do, but what if you don't mind the limitations? For example, the Humility mantle:

The Paladin understands that, to be truly great, one must remain humble. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever boasts or exaggerates about his accomplishments or uses social status to influence another.
That's just a roleplaying restriction. I don't like to boast anyway, so I lose effectively nothing. How about the Mercy mantle?

The Paladin has sworn an oath to never willingly harm non-evil creatures. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever knowingly kills a non-evil creature or performs a Coup de Grace attack.
I'd never do that anyway. And Purity?

A Paladin must stand against the forces of evil without becoming evil himself. He holds himself to a strict standard: do no evil, lest ye become like one of them. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly commits an evil act or associates with evil or undead creatures.
Same as above.

This just seems way too powerful.

Just as a side note, Fax, have you ever seen the Book of Exalted Deeds? Several feats in that book seem similiar to the mantles-the Good ones, at least.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-04, 10:38 PM
Purity's mantle is just the most oft-maligned part of the code: Sure, it's a roleplaying restriction, but it's a really big one at that. Just look at all the paladin debates out there to see why "you cannot perform a single evil act or assosciate with a single evil creature" is such a nasty restriction. Also note that this should be interpreted even more harshly than the normal paladin restrictions, since you willingly accept the mantle.

Mercy is a bit softer, though, as nothing prevents you from knocking the guy unconscious, tying him up, and then sitting back and watching the Rogue slit his throat. There should be a clause in there that requires you to ensure that your companions do not harm disabled or surrendering opponents.

Humility is mostly roleplaying, but the clause about using "social status" to influence others is a bit more murky. As far as I can tell, it really prevents you from being the party face and also forbids you from accepting anything offered to you on the basis of your palidinhood alone (fair and honest payment is fine, but no "I am a paladin, so this is how you must act" or maybe even "Oh great and noble paladin, accept this tribute"). More roleplaying-related than crunch-related, though. This should be cleared up some.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-02-04, 10:42 PM
Er, smiting ends up being the same. Seven times per day, as the core paladin. Also, the Divine Transformation ability is really just something the myself and Proven_Paradox cooked up for the core paladin as a capstone, and it is quite balanced at that level, I assure you. Furthermore, it is true that a good deal of the restrictions are role-playing restrictions, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
That's just a roleplaying restriction. I don't like to boast anyway, so I lose effectively nothing.That's 'cause you're special. same for your comment on Mercy. It really does help to be able to kill the Chaotic Neutral sorcerer that knows Disintegrate and took both Still Spell and Silent Spell, rather than tie him up and hope he doesn't turn you into a pile of dust when it's your watch. Furthermore, Purity means no Assassin in the party as well as great tension with the party's necromancer wizard. Humility could effectively mean no scaring your opponents into thinking you're stronger than you are, and possibly attracting bandits who see what a 'wimp' the paladin is, because he refuses to accept any praise and helps housewives clean up around the house.

Roleplaying restriction are often the most powerful kinds. If used correctly.

(EDIT) D'oh! Ninja'd by Mewtarthio. Bah, serves as reinforcement.

Proven_Paradox
2007-02-04, 11:40 PM
Yes, this paladin is stronger than the core version. Probably a LOT stronger than the core version. But I say core Paladin was way too weak. I say that about pretty much all of the core melee classes. I was under the impression that Fax was trying to go with a Tome of Battle power level. Though I haven't seen this book myself, I see statements all over the boards that the classes in there are a lot more powerful than the core classes, in a good way. According to Fax, this paladin isn't even quite as strong as they are.


My point is, yes, this paladin is stronger than the original. But is that really a bad thing?



Back to the actual critiques, you might want to mention something about eating at least 2/3 meals a day for the Extravagance mantle. Otherwise, you'll see paladins negating that with rings of sustenance or any other ways to not have to eat that often. I personally don't think evil paladins who take that mantle should be allowed to do that.

And I'm not sure how I missed the law smiting in Bravado. Oh well. *Facepalm*

Shazzbaa
2007-02-04, 11:52 PM
Oo, oo, I just noticed another little thing.

"Conviction" and its counterpart, "Triumph," appear to have weapons count as being "holy" at 15th level... however, they are Lawful and Chaotic mantles, respectively. If you're a LE Tyrant Paladin, does your weapon still count as holy if you take "Conviction?"

Grey Paladin
2007-02-05, 10:05 AM
What about true neutral paladins? (think 2E druid True Neutral)

pal·a·din (pāl'ə-dĭn)
An heroic paragon and defender of a noble cause
These words caused me to wonder why Paladins were always viewed as virtues made flesh when they are in fact a certain belief manifested, given the subjectivity of alignment a Chaotic Evil paladin, unlike a blackguard, would believe that he is in fact serving a noble cause and making the world a better place, Thus zealots of all alignments fit to the description and Paladins of the same alignment may even oppose each other because their view of the alignment may be extremely different.
That means that a nearly endless variety of Paladins is possible given the number of ideals in existence, and that Paladins can be of each and every alignment.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 10:55 AM
What about true neutral paladins? (think 2E druid True Neutral)

pal·a·din (pāl'ə-dĭn)
An heroic paragon and defender of a noble cause
These words caused me to wonder why Paladins were always viewed as virtues made flesh when they are in fact a certain belief manifested, given the subjectivity of alignment a Chaotic Evil paladin, unlike a blackguard, would believe that he is in fact serving a noble cause and making the world a better place, Thus zealots of all alignments fit to the description and Paladins of the same alignment may even oppose each other because their view of the alignment may be extremely different.
That means that a nearly endless variety of Paladins is possible given the number of ideals in existence, and that Paladins can be of each and every alignment.

Making this paladin neutral would be far, far too difficult. Sorry.


Oo, oo, I just noticed another little thing.

"Conviction" and its counterpart, "Triumph," appear to have weapons count as being "holy" at 15th level... however, they are Lawful and Chaotic mantles, respectively. If you're a LE Tyrant Paladin, does your weapon still count as holy if you take "Conviction?"

Fixing.


Yes, this paladin is stronger than the core version. Probably a LOT stronger than the core version. But I say core Paladin was way too weak. I say that about pretty much all of the core melee classes. I was under the impression that Fax was trying to go with a Tome of Battle power level. Though I haven't seen this book myself, I see statements all over the boards that the classes in there are a lot more powerful than the core classes, in a good way. According to Fax, this paladin isn't even quite as strong as they are.


My point is, yes, this paladin is stronger than the original. But is that really a bad thing?



Back to the actual critiques, you might want to mention something about eating at least 2/3 meals a day for the Extravagance mantle. Otherwise, you'll see paladins negating that with rings of sustenance or any other ways to not have to eat that often. I personally don't think evil paladins who take that mantle should be allowed to do that.

And I'm not sure how I missed the law smiting in Bravado. Oh well. *Facepalm*

Pretty much on the nose. And I'll fix Extravagance.

Last_resort_33
2007-02-05, 11:15 AM
I think that a set of Balance mantles would be great... A person dedicated to keeping everything balanced... hates overzealous do-gooders but won't stand for evil... and the same with law and chaos... In fact I had a character based on that very premise before... she had a holy anarchic weapon in one hand and an evil axiomatic weapon in the other.

Edit: simud... Do we have anyone who would be willing to try to come up with some neutral mantles, so Fax only has to look over them instead of create them from scratch

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 12:19 PM
I think that a set of Balance mantles would be great... A person dedicated to keeping everything balanced... hates overzealous do-gooders but won't stand for evil... and the same with law and chaos... In fact I had a character based on that very premise before... she had a holy anarchic weapon in one hand and an evil axiomatic weapon in the other.

Edit: simud... Do we have anyone who would be willing to try to come up with some neutral mantles, so Fax only has to look over them instead of create them from scratch

The problem isn't so much coming up with them as making the class "feel right". After all, how can one be a crusader for all things balanced and even? Wouldn't your zeal make you...unbalanced?

I suppose a True Neutral version, with access only to Neutral mantles may be possible, but I don't see it fitting with the rest of the class.

Grey Paladin
2007-02-05, 12:24 PM
What my post was aiming to point out that limiting paladins by alignments at all is silly, as two paladins of the same alignment may very well oppose each other, and that there is no reason for no neutral zealots.

Instead you could simply offer many mantras and not categorize them by alignment, this way each Paladin will, in essence, write his own code, thus making paladins what they should be.


ninja-edit:
And neutral Paladins are easy

Neutral X: X alone, no regards to Y
True Neutral: 2E Druids, The most famous example is that if a 2E druid would observe a conflict, he would go around, help the losing side in a conflict, then once that side begins winning, help the other side, in other words, True Neutral paladins would take Balance to the extreme

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 12:38 PM
True Neutral: 2E Druids, The most famous example is that if a 2E druid would observe a conflict, he would go around, help the losing side in a conflict, then once that side begins winning, help the other side, in other words, True Neutral paladins would take Balance to the extreme

And it was utterly ridiculous then too. It makes for a completely unplayable character, since you might turn on your party at any moment to help the losing side.

I'm afraid that, if you're looking for neutral, you'll have to wait for the Ranger rewrite.

Grey Paladin
2007-02-05, 12:48 PM
Can't you say the same about a chaotic evil paladin that belives all others should obey him? using extremes (err, within extremes) solves little, I am just saying there is very little difference.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 01:25 PM
Can't you say the same about a chaotic evil paladin that belives all others should obey him? using extremes (err, within extremes) solves little, I am just saying there is very little difference.

The Chaotic Evil Paladin, in this case, is a crusader for destruction, entropy, and slaughter. He has a conviction and faith in what he is doing, and believes it to be the best thing for this world.

Trust me, I had a hard time justifying making this as open as it is; the first draft was LG-only.

Grey Paladin
2007-02-05, 02:46 PM
I still fail to see the difference, you have just stated some facts that have no impact on the discussion.

Mauril Everleaf
2007-02-05, 02:51 PM
Well if you remove the idea that a paladin is a righteous warrior for his deity (which is still how I see them) you can maybe see this working. I've taken the stuff for an LG pally and discarded the rest.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 03:02 PM
I still fail to see the difference, you have just stated some facts that have no impact on the discussion.

Um, no I haven't. Here's the bottom-line: there are no neutral Paladins because Paladins uphold an ideal (those ideals being LG, CG, LE, or CE, respectively), and being neutral isn't idyllic enough. See also: flavor text for the Incarnate class.

Also:
pal·a·din (pāl'ə-dĭn): A heroic paragon and defender of a noble cause.

The key word here is "paragon" (par·a·gon (ˈpærəˌgɒn, -gən): a model or pattern of excellence or of a particular excellence). And since we are dealing with alignments that are not LG, "heroic" and "noble" are replaceable with more appropriate terms. The Paladin, in these terms, is an example to his followers, regardless of alignment, of a higher faith that is hard to adhere to. Being partially neutral or wholly neutral is not exemplary, it is ordinary. Paladins should be anything but ordinary.

Khantalas
2007-02-05, 03:05 PM
See also: flavor text for the Incarnate class.

Of course, Soulborn would be much closer. Do they have such fluff text?

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 03:08 PM
Of course, Soulborn would be much closer. Do they have such fluff text?

I may be mixing them up. I only got MoI yesterday. ;)

Shazzbaa
2007-02-05, 03:57 PM
Re: neutral paladin
(gotta put my 2cp in)

Here's the thing: the corner alignments work well because you can mix and match all of them, any which way, and get a very extreme alignment that it is easy to imagine someone zealously upholding. Neutral?... not so much.

I can possibly see a LN paladin, but it has been pointed out to me that a knight would work just as well for this.
CN? No. NG? Certainly not. NE? Doubtful. TN? Maybe.

Honestly, the only things you could (in my mind) conceivably get out of this are LN and TN. The defenders of the balance already exist in druids, and the defenders of honour and law already exist in knights. It would be... superfluous to make a mantle for Neutrality, to me.

Matthew
2007-02-05, 04:00 PM
I have to admit, I am rather attached to the Alignment descriptor for Paladins. Paladins of Evil, Chaos and Neutrality just don't do it for me.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 04:02 PM
I have to admit, I am rather attached to the Alignment descriptor for Paladins. Paladins of Evil, Chaos and Neutrality just don't do it for me.

Well, I hope you take the Lawful and Good mantles and give them a shot.

Matthew
2007-02-05, 04:08 PM
I do like what you have done, Fax. I might convert my Paladin Character to see how he fares, when I get a chance (Hell, he started out in Second Edition, so it wouldn't be the first time...).

Grey Paladin
2007-02-05, 05:41 PM
First of all, I forgot to tell you you did an excellent job.

Secondly, the idea that the corner alignments are any more extreme then the others is completely wrong, you have brought your example of WotC claiming so in one source, perhaps this is just the translation but my 3.0 PH says that an alignment with a neutral descriptor represents the second alignment standing alone without anything else, thus Neutral Good can also be called Pure Good, to me, this seems far more extreme then Lawful good and all the other so called "extreme" alignments when in fact the corner alignments are the true compromises between a pair of alignments.

And according to my PH True Neutral is the rarest alignment.

Thirdly, even in the Light-grey and Dark-grey universe of D&D alignment still mostly depends on your perspective, thus any paladin can hold any cause and see it as noble following the definition of something that deserves to be done for the "greater good".

Heroic
1.Also, he·ro·i·cal. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a hero or heroine.

2.suitable to the character of a hero in size or concept; daring; noble: a heroic ambition.

3.having or displaying the character or attributes of a hero; extraordinarily bold, altruistic, determined, etc.: a heroic explorer.

4.having or involving recourse to boldness, daring, or extreme measures: Heroic measures were taken to save his life.

5.dealing with or describing the deeds, attributes, etc., of heroes, as in literature.

6.of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the heroes of antiquity: heroic mythology.

7.larger than life-size: a statue of heroic proportions


Sounds like everything Paladin to me.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 05:54 PM
First of all, I forgot to tell you you did an excellent job.

Secondly, the idea that the corner alignments are any more extreme then the others is completely wrong, you have brought your example of WotC claiming so in one source, perhaps this is just the translation but my 3.0 PH says that an alignment with a neutral descriptor represents the second alignment standing alone without anything else, thus Neutral Good can also be called Pure Good, to me, this seems far more extreme then Lawful good and all the other so called "extreme" alignments when in fact the corner alignments are the true compromises between a pair of alignments.

And according to my PH True Neutral is the rarest alignment.

Thirdly, even in the Light-grey and Dark-grey universe of D&D alignment still mostly depends on your perspective, thus any paladin can hold any cause and see it as noble following the definition of something that deserves to be done for the "greater good".

Heroic
1.Also, he·ro·i·cal. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a hero or heroine.

2.suitable to the character of a hero in size or concept; daring; noble: a heroic ambition.

3.having or displaying the character or attributes of a hero; extraordinarily bold, altruistic, determined, etc.: a heroic explorer.

4.having or involving recourse to boldness, daring, or extreme measures: Heroic measures were taken to save his life.

5.dealing with or describing the deeds, attributes, etc., of heroes, as in literature.

6.of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the heroes of antiquity: heroic mythology.

7.larger than life-size: a statue of heroic proportions


Sounds like everything Paladin to me.

It does indeed sound that way. However, in order for the Paladin to be able to follow an extreme code of conduct (as per the Mantles), he has to represent more than a single virtue. That's the fluff argument anyway.

The crunch argument is this: It would be inordinately difficult to revamp the entire class to work with a neutral alignment. Neutral mantles would require balance with all four of the other mantle types and would be far more readily accessible. They would also probably introduce redundancy and/or nonaccess to certain things. For instance: with Alliance being Chaotic and Communion being Lawful, how would a NG Paladin obtain a mount? I could make a neutral mount mantle, but that would introduce the capability of a paladin with two mounts, which is redundant and ridiculous. There are many many examples of this throughout the Mantle system here.

Furthermore, how would one handle some of the special features of the Paladin that currently rely on alignment, such as the smite attack of a neutral paladin? Or the Lay on Hands? What about turning/rebuking undead: does a LN Paladin turn, rebuke, neither, or both? Or what spells does a CN Paladin have access to? As it is now, it's simple: #G Paladins get Paladin spells, while #E Paladins get Blackguard spells.

To be perfectly frank: it'd be a mechanical nightmare, I'm happy with this how it is (except for fine-tuning of existing features and/or introduction of new mantles in existing types).

Grey Paladin
2007-02-05, 06:02 PM
Personally I find mounts to be ridiculous as is so I am happy when paladins lose that silly ability =P

secondly, if the only thing that truly stops this from happening is it being a mechanical nightmare, would you mind if I gave it a try?

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 06:08 PM
Personally I find mounts to be ridiculous as is so I am happy when paladins lose that silly ability =P

secondly, if the only thing that truly stops this from happening is it being a mechanical nightmare, would you mind if I gave it a try?

Go right ahead.

cferejohn
2007-02-05, 07:15 PM
Another problem with "neutral" imho, is that the "neutral" in "Lawful Neutral" means something substantially different than the neutral in "Neutral Good" (and in point of fact probably something different than the one in "Chaotic Neutral").

And as for the roleplaying restrictions not being "hard" enough, that depends alot on the sort of campaign you are in/DM you have. Some DMs are going to be constantly looking to put the Paladin in tricky moral positions. Do you work with the Duke's morally questionable mercenaries to take down the evil necromancer? What do you do with the good dragon that can't understand that by eating local cows and sheep, he is depriving pesants of their livelyhood? Also, realize that Purity means you can never kill an animal. A hungy owlbear is terrorrizing the populace? You're going to have to relocate it, cuz you can't kill it (and yeah, knocking it out and letting the Rogue kill it is definitely an alignment violation).

Otoh, some campaigns are more straight-forward "there's the evil, let's go kill it" dungeon-crawl/hack-and-slashy sorts of things. Nothing wrong with that; I enjoy those sorts of games too, but it's true that this Paladin is natrually going to be more powerful when he doesn't have to make tough moral choices as often; of course, that's true with the PH Paladin too...

Shazzbaa
2007-02-05, 07:21 PM
my 3.0 PH says that an alignment with a neutral descriptor represents the second alignment standing alone without anything else, thus Neutral Good can also be called Pure Good, to me, this seems far more extreme then Lawful good and all the other so called "extreme" alignments when in fact the corner alignments are the true compromises between a pair of alignments.

Ehhh... if you wanna be Pure Good, just be LG or CG and take all of your mantles from the "Good" section. That would give you the feeling of "Pure Good" a lot more than a "Balance" mantle would, IMO.

That's actually one of my favourite parts of this paladin -- you can prioritise your alignment. Mostly because I've had this redemption/mercy-themed paladin in the back of my mind for a while, and this would make her very, very possible, by prioritising Good over Law.

Mauril Everleaf
2007-02-06, 10:04 AM
Not to get into an alignment battle, but I change the way alignment is done, just a bit, with major and minor alignments. You can be Major Lawful Minor Good or Minor Lawful Major Good for a traditional paladin, emphasizing Law or Good respectively. These mantles do a good job of that, too. If you want a paladin of law then take all the Law Mantles, a pally of Good then take the Good Mantles, etc.

Grey Paladin
2007-02-06, 10:35 AM
Both of you are presenting your views of the alignment system with no evidence or examples, back your words up if we are to have a discussion.

Thing is, a neutral good paladin is actually more like "good-nothing" paladin, the neutrality of a neutral good paladin doesn't appears by him seeking balance, it manifests by the paladin caring of good alone, with no regards to Law and Chaos.

the same goes for all other alignments, beside True Neutral, that would be the only, aham, truly neutral paladin out of them all.

And given the fact that True Neutral is the rarest alignment, True Neutral paladins would be the rarest of them all as well.

And I take it that you have never played a Druid in 2E if you think that being True Neutral carries no hard moral decisions- there are two types of True Neutral, they who care for absolutely nothing (and cannot become paladins) and they who care for everything equally and strive to preserve balance- they who are more often then not Paladins or Druids

You must understand that often enough being truly neutral does not represents you not caring about good or evil, but you understanding that they are both needed for the world to function! You could very well be extremely like the Classical Paladin, but would have to make tough decisions that do not always seem "good", for the GREATER good- Balance.

Will you wipe out all vile beasts in a certain forest simply because they raided the village nearby, knowing full well that the they did that because the villagers expanded too far and killed all their natural prey?

Will you slaughter everyone in a small village simply because the death of one of them will cure the disease that inflicted the nearby city?

What about helping to research a spell that destroys, say, every single orc in existence?

While this dilemmas may also apply to other Paladins, each of them will act upon it differently, fitting their own agendas, True Neutral Paladins will always act upon the option that is for the better of the world as a whole, as an eco system (see Gaia theory), be it good or evil.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-06, 11:46 AM
The problem I'm having is that the character you're describing doesn't feel like a paladin to me. It feels like a druid, or a ranger maybe. Yes, paladins have hard moral decisions all the time. Yes, paladins do great things. But honestly? I don't think that their moral code should be one-sided (NG, CN, NE, LN, TN).

Matthew
2007-02-06, 12:29 PM
Also, there is a 3.x version of Neutrality, which rather than "cares for nothing" or "cares for everything equally" is simply undecided, not good enough to be good, not bad enough to be bad.

Golthur
2007-02-06, 12:33 PM
Also, there is a 3.x version of Neutrality, which rather than "cares for nothing" or "cares for everything equally" is simply undecided, not good enough to be good, not bad enough to be bad.
Even in old-school AD&D (at least in my group), this was the difference between "neutral" and "true neutral". Neutral was undecided/ambivalent/amoral, and true neutral actively sought balance.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-02-06, 01:14 PM
I always saw balance as a perfectly viable cause for a paladin--not making the status quo or letting things stay the same, but preventing the unhinging of everything.
For a neutral or good campaign, most of the unbalancing stuff would be in the form of aberrations or no-goodnik megalomaniacs. Taking them out to restore things or prevent them from ever being knocked askew in the first place is a good way to introduce a neutral pally.
For an evil campaign, maybe the forces of good have unbalanced things--the line between light and dark has been pushed too far one way, and needs to be brought back.
And, as usual, this is all just my opinion. Cheers!

Fax Celestis
2007-02-06, 03:22 PM
I always saw balance as a perfectly viable cause for a paladin--not making the status quo or letting things stay the same, but preventing the unhinging of everything.
For a neutral or good campaign, most of the unbalancing stuff would be in the form of aberrations or no-goodnik megalomaniacs. Taking them out to restore things or prevent them from ever being knocked askew in the first place is a good way to introduce a neutral pally.
For an evil campaign, maybe the forces of good have unbalanced things--the line between light and dark has been pushed too far one way, and needs to be brought back.
And, as usual, this is all just my opinion. Cheers!

Oh, trust me, I don't see anything wrong with that kind of Paladin. I just don't see it fitting with this particular Paladin mechanic.

Shazzbaa
2007-02-06, 03:27 PM
Thing is, a neutral good paladin is actually more like "good-nothing" paladin, the neutrality of a neutral good paladin doesn't appears by him seeking balance, it manifests by the paladin caring of good alone, with no regards to Law and Chaos.

I believe we are in agreement here (as far as Good-nothing goes). But honestly, if you like this idea, you can achieve the same effect by varianting this re-write in your own game to allow NG paladins, and taking all Good mantles. Same for any other alignment, excepting TN, which you'd have to do some work to achieve.


And I take it that you have never played a Druid in 2E if you think that being True Neutral carries no hard moral decisions- there are two types of True Neutral, they who care for absolutely nothing (and cannot become paladins) and they who care for everything equally and strive to preserve balance- they who are more often then not Paladins or Druids.
In terms of the game as it currently stands, they're not ever paladins. Because paladins, without a variant or rewrite, only come in one flavour: Lawful Anal Good.

Anyway, it's not that people aren't understanding the concept of true neutral, it's that those who are against it don't think true neutral fits the "feel" of a paladin. At this point, the debate about all these neutral paladins are mostly a flavour argument -- not necessarily something that needs examples or references. It's not that "paladins can't be Neutral for reasons X, Y, and Z," ....it's more of a response of "that doesn't feel right." I think the issue here is that the flavour of a paladin is different to you than it is to others.

If it feels right to you, you're certainly free to have neutral paladins in your own game; but it's just not much use to argue over flavour.

illithid13
2007-02-06, 03:45 PM
In reguards to the definition of "Paladin," the words "heroic" and "noble" are very, very, very subjective. In any extream alingment, upholding the core character trates are seen by the zelot as "heroic" and "noble." (sorry if this has already been brought up, didn't have/take the time to read everything throughly.)

Nice work on the writeup there Fax. If ever I get time to play a game again, I might try this one.

Rama_Lei
2007-02-06, 03:57 PM
For the Temperance mantle, can the paladin take no offensive actions, or no actions at all?

KingRexII
2007-02-06, 04:06 PM
Fax -- just wanted you to know that I'll be giving this a test run (with a CG werewolf, nonetheless -- alignment issues of lycanthropy have been relaxed), funny enough in Rama_Lei's campaign.

Also, nitpick:



Mantle of Faith (Su): A Paladin receives gifts from his patron deity according to his faith. Starting at second level and every three levels thereafter, the Paladin receives blessings from his patron deity in exchange for a stricter code of conduct.

(emphasis mine)

According to the table, a paladin gets a new mantle at 2, 4, 7, 10, etc... I'll be going by text, not the table, but just wondering which one you really want.

For any mantle that says a paladin gets a bonus at 1/4 his paladin level, is that a minimum of one? At level 2 when you pick up your first mantle, would Humility grant a +1 or a +0 sacred bonus to Will saves?

Fax Celestis
2007-02-06, 04:09 PM
According to the table, a paladin gets a new mantle at 2, 4, 7, 10, etc... I'll be going by text, not the table, but just wondering which one you really want.

The table is actually correct. I have altered the text to reflect this.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-06, 04:25 PM
For the Temperance mantle, can the paladin take no offensive actions, or no actions at all?

Cannot attack. He can do other things, though.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-06, 04:32 PM
Added Metamantle feats.

KingRexII
2007-02-06, 04:36 PM
Ah, edited my post after you answered. I'll repeat my question:

For any mantle that says a paladin gets a bonus at 1/4 his paladin level, is that a minimum of one? At level 2 when you pick up your first mantle, would Humility grant a +1 or a +0 sacred bonus to Will saves?

Fax Celestis
2007-02-06, 04:39 PM
Round down, to a minimum 1.

TheOOB
2007-02-07, 02:02 AM
The concept of a neutral paladin is quite frankly silly, personally I don't even think chaotic paladins make much sense, but thats a debate for another day.

A Paladin is a holy warrior who devotes themself completly and holy to a cause. Paladins are characterised by their extream zeal and resolve, being completely unwilling to go agienst their cause and code of conduct even if doing so would be more efficient.

The problum is "Neutrality" doesn't create a strong enough cause within itself for a paladin to follow with that kind of faith and zeal. The most common "neutral" cause that most people mention is "balance", but contrary to popular belief balance is not a neutral concept, the concept of "balance" has no alignment. If you bring about "balance" by helping the downtrodden and bring though who would take advantage of them to justice, you are most likely good. If you bring about balance by maintaing some kind of status quo, even if that means aiding evil beings sometimes, you are evil (anyone who purposefully aids the forces of evil, or hinders the forces of good agienst evil is evil, even if they also help the forces of good at different times.)

Inevitably, all "neutral" paladins would experiance alignment shift to good or evil, and eventually to law or chaos, extream faith and furvor has no room for neutral middle ground...unless your a druid.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-02-07, 05:52 PM
If we continue on this stream then this poor horse will have nothing left to send to the glue factory. However, when arguments about alignment break out, it's a safe bet that mechanical issues are all straightened out. Nice job, Fax.

KingRexII
2007-02-08, 11:03 AM
Question: With MoF: Anarchy, does that apply to any kind of damage die? Melee, ranged, spell damage, ability damage, SA damage? Thanks for the clarification.

EDIT: Great job on the re-write!

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 11:51 AM
Question: With MoF: Anarchy, does that apply to any kind of damage die? Melee, ranged, spell damage, ability damage, SA damage? Thanks for the clarification.

EDIT: Great job on the re-write!

Any damage die that comes from a source within the radius qualifies.

geez3r
2007-02-09, 06:04 PM
Incredibly well done. Two-thumbs up, and before now, I wasn't a fan of paladins, I didn't hate them, but I didn't like them. I may very well have to stat out a paladin now.

Jamin
2007-02-12, 06:06 PM
The DR for the transformation thing is sliver but I was wondering if a chaotic paladin would have cold iron instead .

Proven_Paradox
2007-02-12, 07:09 PM
Oh yeah! I started on that ability assuming a default lawful good alignment. The published class feature that I modeled that after is the Favored Soul's capstone, which (I think) has chaotic characters getting DR/Cold Iron, and neutral ones getting to choose between the two. J-man's right, you might want to add something like that in.

Copacetic
2007-02-19, 10:43 AM
Very good. Lots of flayer. I like the Idea about paladins with wings. Brilliant!

Eighth_Seraph
2007-02-19, 11:00 AM
This is probably a result of the link I made to this, but please try to note the date of the last post before posting something on a linked thread, Frigs. This is borderline threadomancy, but no harm done, really.

Matthew
2007-02-19, 01:40 PM
Is it? I thought the Rules of Posting indicated a one and a half month duration before Threadomancy kicks in. It's only been six days since this was last posted in.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-19, 01:59 PM
Is it? I thought the Rules of Posting indicated a one and a half month duration before Threadomancy kicks in. It's only been six days since this was last posted in.

45 days or three pages.

Matthew
2007-02-19, 02:27 PM
Really? It says Three pages and 45 days in the Rules of Posting. Am I missing something?

Eighth_Seraph
2007-02-19, 02:40 PM
There's a set time frame? Oh, I generally consider it a dead thread once it hits the third page, and this was on the fourth. Not that it really matters. Again, no harm done.

belboz
2007-02-22, 03:03 AM
While I'm not sure a TN Paladin would make much sense, NG, NE, LN, and CN paladins all do (at least to me). Note that all you have to do for NG and NE is limit mantle choice to one, rather than two, categories, and all you have to do for LN and CN is the following:

-Drop Aura (or house-rule spells that detect Chaos and/or Law)
-Allow them to pick (at character creation) what energy they channel
-Have them smite chaos/law instead of good/evil

Duke Malagigi
2007-03-19, 09:31 PM
I'm of the opinion that the term "paladin" should be reserved for those of Lawful alignment. The word paladin comes from the Italian word paladino, which its self comes from the Latin word palatinus, meaning palace official (read as noble man/elite palace guard/court official). Examples of evil paladins could include Palpatine's Imperial Guard. Link (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paladin) to the definitions of the word paladin.

Fredderf
2007-03-20, 03:26 PM
Some of those mantles are awful powerful...
This is too much I think. Dull down some of the benifits. This is making the fighter cry.

Edit: Also the wings ability negates the usefulness of the steed.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-20, 03:47 PM
Some of those mantles are awful powerful...
This is too much I think. Dull down some of the benifits. This is making the fighter cry.

Edit: Also the wings ability negates the usefulness of the steed.

The power level of this is approximate to the classes presented in Tome of Battle and Magic of Incarnum, not to the core melee classes (which are very weak).

Also, it specifies in the ability that you or your mount gains the wings.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-20, 04:16 PM
whats that? oh its just the sound of the rules straining under the weight of yet another broken alternate palidian build...hope it holds. sarcasm aside, using non-core class's to rebuild a core class is probably not the best idea in the whole world. I would go into whats wrong with this class but i dont think i have that much time, just at a look change the spell back to how it used to be, they arnt a primary spell casting class, remove the mantles and give them something....normal?

Fax Celestis
2007-03-20, 04:47 PM
whats that? oh its just the sound of the rules straining under the weight of yet another broken alternate palidian build...hope it holds. sarcasm aside, using non-core class's to rebuild a core class is probably not the best idea in the whole world. I would go into whats wrong with this class but i dont think i have that much time, just at a look change the spell back to how it used to be, they arnt a primary spell casting class, remove the mantles and give them something....normal?

The reason this is powered according to the ToB is that those martial classes are capable of competing with full-casters, whereas the martial classes that are presented in the PHB are not. This class is capable of competing with full-casters. Further, it is effective as a team player and has a very rigorous (albeit evolving) Code of Conduct, the violation of which removes the powers of the class.

And what gives you the idea that this Paladin is any sort of primary caster? It's not. Giving a class 0th level spells or giving them access from level 1 does not a primary caster make. A primary caster has spells that are his core mechanic. This Paladin's core mechanic is not his spells; it is instead his Mantles.

Further, if you examine this class carefully, you will find that he not only gets less spells in total than a regular paladin, but he also obtains access to iconic Paladin abilities (with the correct mantles) at a later-than-normal progression.

This Paladin, while more versatile, is more balanced and less frontloaded than the one presented in the PHB, and is also worth taking past level 5, as you have actual class features.

I would suggest careful examination before branding something as "overpowered" next time.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-03-20, 05:23 PM
As hesitant as I might be to balance things against the ToB (since I dislike it viscerally, for some reason) this is indeed a better build for Paladins; the dead level problem is largely solved, it increases mid-level viability...and it allows greater customization, which is something I think all classes should strive for.

I particularly like the concept of a 'scaling' version of the code of conduct and the reduced spellcasting.

All in all, this is an improvement, which is what matters- although I'm hoping to see a 'Fighter as it should have been' with those evolving feats you were working on earlier at some point, so we can keep things core.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-20, 05:56 PM
As hesitant as I might be to balance things against the ToB (since I dislike it viscerally, for some reason) this is indeed a better build for Paladins; the dead level problem is largely solved, it increases mid-level viability...and it allows greater customization, which is something I think all classes should strive for.

I particularly like the concept of a 'scaling' version of the code of conduct and the reduced spellcasting.

All in all, this is an improvement, which is what matters- although I'm hoping to see a 'Fighter as it should have been' with those evolving feats you were working on earlier at some point, so we can keep things core.

I actually am brainstorming a How-It-Should-Be Sorceror and Ranger right now (sorceror skeleton (http://corporation.walagata.com/fax/wiki/index.php/Sorceror)), but am kinda stuck at the moment. Assistance would be nice, but not begged.

As for the "dead level" problem, I like to think that this Paladin completely solves it, as the only "dead" levels it has are those where you'd gain feats.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-20, 05:59 PM
i read enough of the class to gather an opinon. All your points are valid but just becuase it isnt front loaded and "gains abilities at later levels" dosnt mean its balanced or better then the core.

My problem is that it should not be able to go toe to toe with a caster...thats not their point. They are martial class's while the class's in ToB are "martial" class's, none of which can stand up to a fighter without their powers, just like a caster without his spells is just a dude in a dress. Making a class powerful to be equal with a caster when its obviously a melee class is silly and usless

Eighth_Seraph
2007-03-20, 06:12 PM
i read enough of the class to gather an opinon....Wow. You managed to discredit yourself before even making an argument.

Anyway, the whole point of remaking melee classes is to make them on the same level as the casters, since some players were sick of running into an encounter only to gaze at disintegrated piles of ash and a few survivors frozen in place for them to coup de grace.
none of which can stand up to a fighter without their powers, just like a caster without his spells is just a dude in a dress.Think about what you just wrote. No class can stand up to any other class without whatever it is that they depend on. An unarmed, unarmored fighter won't be taking anything close to his own CR down anytime soon, much the same as a rogue against a golem, a wizard in an antimagic field or an unarmed and mute bard.

Every class (except maybe monks) depends on something, without which they really don't have much to fall back on in combat, and simply because a class is a melee class does not mean that it has to be weak. Please post again when you have something to contribute, Cabal.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-20, 06:25 PM
i still don't understand how people think the fighter or any other melee clas is weak, sure they are when compared to wizards or clerics at their optimal effectivness. Yes taking a class's abilities make them weak but that is the most effective way to kill a PC. If the party is a heavy magic party you hit them with an Anti-Magic field and pray to god they dont have a dysjunction coming up on the next turn.
But like most other players, which i am assume like them you started in 3.0, you don't see the tactics of removing a players strengths. my argument is simple, don't compare a core class with class's that are not supported, save the book they first appear in, by any other written material. Then again arguing in a forum where many dont even play the game seems a little silly to me now...

Fax Celestis
2007-03-20, 06:29 PM
I've been playing since 1e and homebrewing since 2e. I do know what I'm doing.

Again, the problem this takes care of is that an optimized PHB Paladin cannot compete with even a poorly thrown together Wizard, Sorceror, Druid, or Cleric. This gives the Paladin something to do other than play meatshield/Coup-de-Gracer.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-20, 06:32 PM
the problem isnt the paladin, its the druid and cleric...who have been super powered due to no one wanting to play a heal stick, so instead of being creative, the designers just threw them a ton of special powers, left it at that, and when some one did say something they just made erreta which did nothing but unbalance them more.
And the edition comment was not for you, it was for 8th

Fax Celestis
2007-03-20, 06:36 PM
Despite using alternative builds for the Druid and Cleric (the Cloistered Cleric and the PHB-II Shapechange variant), they still dominate. The problem in the the Wiz/Sor/Dru/Clr case is not their class features (witness: Sorcerors and Clerics have almost none), but instead their casting ability. In their cases, it is not their class features, but their spells that are the issue.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-20, 06:42 PM
i would hardly call a sorcerer overpowered, or even balanced. The Cleric has spells as powerful as arcane magic, domains and their powers, heavy armor, d8 HD, full acces to simple and martial weapons...combine those and thats a problem. i agree the class system is an issue but remaking all other class's isnt the way to go about it, make the overpowered class's weaker

Fax Celestis
2007-03-20, 07:00 PM
i would hardly call a sorcerer overpowered, or even balanced. The Cleric has spells as powerful as arcane magic, domains and their powers, heavy armor, d8 HD, full acces to simple and martial weapons...combine those and thats a problem. i agree the class system is an issue but remaking all other class's isnt the way to go about it, make the overpowered class's weaker

Weakening (or strengthening) a class is very difficult while remaining within the bounds of the original. I plan on doing How-It-Should-Be's for all the core classes (and some of those that aren't, like Duskblade and Spellthief), and balancing them all against each other.

PS: The sorceror is the most balanced of the full casters.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-20, 08:16 PM
i would disagree, i don't think any one class is over balanced, i think the material for it is, like the PrC's and player options, just get rid of the extra feats for the wizard and its fine....cleric needs a little help as does druid but none of them are uber powerful, people just think they are do to the Char Op boards

Eighth_Seraph
2007-03-20, 08:27 PM
...it seems you've struck a nerve, Cabal, though I must say that I still disagree with your argument. In any case, the how-it-should be's got off on a good start, and I'm anticipating the Druid re-write greatly, however many millenia of contemplation in that null-time dimension Fax has locked away under the kitchen sink that may take.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-20, 08:52 PM
...null-time dimension Fax has locked away under the kitchen sink that may take.

AKA: Insomnia.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-20, 09:50 PM
ive been married for 20 years, i know how to get under peoples skin...my wife taught me

Artemician
2007-03-21, 07:36 AM
Cabal, despite your assertions to the contrary, Full casters ARE overpowered. It is hardly a problem of how optimized they are, or how smart the fighter plays. If the caster has any degree of competence, the fighter won't have a chance.

As is, the class imbalance is severely annoying some people. While there have been ideas to reduce the power level of the full casters, they are still significantly more powerful than non-casters. To further reduce them in power would require a significant rewrite of the spellcasting rules/spells, which people are loath to do because of the time/effort involved. It is far easier to improve the non-caster types, ala ToB.

Even if the power level were not in question, the Core Paladin has always struck me as a badly thrown-together character class, with inconsistencies and strange rule clauses. This Paladin more accurately conveys the Flavour of a "Holy Warrior", and in addition can do much more things.

And that is why it is nifty.

Sornas
2007-03-21, 09:36 AM
Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Perseverance mantle must complete a nearly impossible task (cutting down a great tree with a Herring, translating a huge ancient text, etc.) over the course of several days. During that time the Paladin can perform no other actions except those needed to survive.


Fixed it for ya. :smallbiggrin:

I have to say, this is great. ^_^ I always liked paladins for the idea of having class features tailored to an alignment, but the way they were written was just too constrictive from a fluff standpoint, and too boring from a mechanics standpoint.

This method fixes both those problems, allowing Paladins to have different alignments (and actually be *gasp* DIFFERENT from the differently-sligned paladins), allowing them to pick their own code of conduct, and be able to contribute in more and interesting ways other than a few boring spells, Lay on hands jokes, and hitting those people with a pointy stick.

I think I may yoink this for my student group here on campus. ^^

Artemician
2007-03-23, 11:23 PM
A quick question: The caster level of a Paladin-as-it-should-be is equal to his Paladin level right?
Or is it equal to half his caster level?

Fax Celestis
2007-03-24, 11:16 AM
A quick question: The caster level of a Paladin-as-it-should-be is equal to his Paladin level right?
Or is it equal to half his caster level?

It is "equal to."

Kioran
2007-03-24, 12:32 PM
I think Cabal is right about the correct approach to balancing: increasing power accros the board will get you nowhere, at least in my opinion. The only thing it does, reliably, is threatening game worlds and the narrative, same as Epic level.

I acknowledge that Fax has a different opinion on this, but if you think hard about the amount of power attained by Pcs using these third-party power level classes it strikes me as obscene, making PCs not only remarkable individuals, but demi-gods within a few levels. They become beings which cannot even be harmed by very powerful mundane means. It hurt the feeling of the game pretty bad if you aks me
This is, esentially, the problem with spellcasters - they eliminate mundane logistics by being able to eliminate the need for supplies, foodstuffs and labour. At a certain Point they fight, forage, build better, even outperforming others at mental work. The Characters are not only tremendously powerful, they do not even need the support of NPCs and are capable of wiping out entire cities or building them at will. In other words they are able to shape the world almost at will after attaining that level of power(which is a little below epic level), and since they are almost immortal, there´s pretty little the world, or even other PCs, could really do if it came head-to-head.

Powergamers number on argument(I used it myself a few times and only later realized it´s stupidity), which many here like to employ as well is:

"Not all, in fact very few, ever abuse their powers or potential to that extent. We can give them the power because they won´t use it to break the world."

*Nurt* congratulations, the candidate has just succesfully screwed himself.

Any power, as long as it´s available will be used and abused in any fashion imaginable sooner or later. And once the Genie is out of the bottle, it won´t go back in - It´s like introducing firearms - those will not, ever, became permanently lost, no technology will. Eventually someone will rediscover them. So you should always expect anything you enter into your campaign setting to have maximum impact. Entering more powerful PC-classes, even if they only parallell the power of classes in other "departments" will uninevitably tip the balance of power even more towards PCs, weakening the influence their surroundings have on them.
Let me just finish this one with a little qoute some of you might be familiar with:

"Herr, die Not ist groß!
Die ich rief, die Geister
werd ich nun nicht los!"

Fax Celestis
2007-03-24, 01:16 PM
I acknowledge that Fax has a different opinion on this, but if you think hard about the amount of power attained by Pcs using these third-party power level classes it strikes me as obscene, making PCs not only remarkable individuals, but demi-gods within a few levels. They become beings which cannot even be harmed by very powerful mundane means. It hurt the feeling of the game pretty bad if you aks me

Kioran: Tome of Battle (which this is balance to) is not a third-party book. It is an official, WotC supplement, and makes fighter types actually useful while not increasing the overall power level of casters.


Any power, as long as it´s available will be used and abused in any fashion imaginable sooner or later. And once the Genie is out of the bottle, it won´t go back in - It´s like introducing firearms - those will not, ever, became permanently lost, no technology will. Eventually someone will rediscover them. So you should always expect anything you enter into your campaign setting to have maximum impact. Entering more powerful PC-classes, even if they only parallell the power of classes in other "departments" will uninevitably tip the balance of power even more towards PCs, weakening the influence their surroundings have on them.

Two points: first, "introducing more power" with severe limitations as presented here is hardly the same as introducing a gamebreaking spell or feat. Most of the mantles presented have very difficult or awkward requirements to keep, and those that do not don't provide as powerful an effect as those that do.

Second, the fundamental answer to powergaming is to return in kind. If your players run Pun-Pun, CoDzilla, and Batman, the best answer is to make their abilities less useful in combats. Is your wizard one-shotting everything with ability damage? Send in things that are immune to ability damage. Is your Cleric a better fighter than the Fighter? Get rid of Persistant Metamagic and/or Divine Power, or smack him with a violation of his god's wishes.

In fact, the best answer to a powergaming party is to send equally powergamed NPCs at them. Class levels added to templated monsters is always a doozy, particularly if you use the party's tricks against them.

Power creep happens, and there's really nothing to be done about it.

Kioran
2007-03-24, 02:49 PM
Kioran: Tome of Battle (which this is balance to) is not a third-party book. It is an official, WotC supplement, and makes fighter types actually useful while not increasing the overall power level of casters.

My bad. Okay, so it´s an official supplement - that doesn´t change the fact that I diapprove of the method (enhancing martial Characters Power to a level comparable with spellcasters). While it doesn´t hand out cookies across the board, it increases PC-Power over NPC Power and, as a second, counteract one of the few drawbacks of spellcasters - having few HP, which hurts a lot on the lower lvls, where these things are still important.
In the Past, any party who wanted to survive the first few adventures had to use character classes which become weaker with progression, fighters(or classes derivative thereof) to protect the casters. While this sucked for the martial characters involved, it actually weakened the over all power of the party, which is a good thing. Till somewhere around lvl 6 or 7 most srcane casters are not suited to cloe encounters, and clerics are, without their share of buffs, weaker than other expert characters( especially monks), a drawback which becomes obsolete only later when they have a higher daily allotment of spells.
I´m aware there have been and are methods to circumvent these, but removing another stumbling block isn´t that great

btw: I mostly play mundane, non spell-casting characters.



Two points: first, "introducing more power" with severe limitations as presented here is hardly the same as introducing a gamebreaking spell or feat. Most of the mantles presented have very difficult or awkward requirements to keep, and those that do not don't provide as powerful an effect as those that do.

Second, the fundamental answer to powergaming is to return in kind. If your players run Pun-Pun, CoDzilla, and Batman, the best answer is to make their abilities less useful in combats. Is your wizard one-shotting everything with ability damage? Send in things that are immune to ability damage. Is your Cleric a better fighter than the Fighter? Get rid of Persistant Metamagic and/or Divine Power, or smack him with a violation of his god's wishes.

In fact, the best answer to a powergaming party is to send equally powergamed NPCs at them. Class levels added to templated monsters is always a doozy, particularly if you use the party's tricks against them.

Power creep happens, and there's really nothing to be done about it.

Yeah, but that method would only amount in pitting PCs against Pseudo-PCs. While this has proven very effective (In a recent session of mine, a single CR 5 Ogre Barbarian(lvl1) had our party, which in the previous session, while being short two Characters, one KIA one absent, slaughtered 22 ordinary troglodyte adepts and warriors), it nonetheless squanders rare ressources - such enemies would realistically be far and far between.
If you fight the PCs in an arms race, you would, if you consider the ramifications of your actions, lay waste to broad strechtes of the world, robbing them of their extraordinary individuals. If ordinary opponents are to easily overmatched, you would have to bring out the big guns for every tavern brawl or minor skirmish, lest the characters get bored by esay encounters.
Same goes for your epic level campaigns - these wars and feuds might wreak severe havoc in some stretches of land which could easily take decades to rebuild. Any realistic world could take only so much of this, there is no limitless supply of enemies and battlegrounds. Middle Earth was, for example, devastated after the Events in LotR, definitely in no shape for a rematch of the same order of magnitude.
That´s why every ounce of PC power shortens the lifespan of your campaign setting, with only very RP-heavy or totally RP-less play as alternative to acknowledging the "strain".
Core-SRD is powerful enough as it is, I wouldn´t want, as a GM, to introduce more power.

Oh, and as a Question, is anybody familiar with german or german RP-Systems, specifically DSA (das schwarze Auge)? It has a good example of a setting strained to it´s limits to accomodate exalted lvl campaigns, in other words campaigns for characters whose powers supersede the built in control mechanisms of the game, requiring earthshaking powers to slow them down.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-24, 03:00 PM
Yeah, but that method would only amount in pitting PCs against Pseudo-PCs. While this has proven very effective (In a recent session of mine, a single CR 5 Ogre Barbarian(lvl1) had our party, which in the previous session, while being short two Characters, one KIA one absent, slaughtered 22 ordinary troglodyte adepts and warriors), it nonetheless squanders rare ressources - such enemies would realistically be far and far between.
If you fight the PCs in an arms race, you would, if you consider the ramifications of your actions, lay waste to broad strechtes of the world, robbing them of their extraordinary individuals. If ordinary opponents are to easily overmatched, you would have to bring out the big guns for every tavern brawl or minor skirmish, lest the characters get bored by esay encounters.
Same goes for your epic level campaigns - these wars and feuds might wreak severe havoc in some stretches of land which could easily take decades to rebuild. Any realistic world could take only so much of this, there is no limitless supply of enemies and battlegrounds. Middle Earth was, for example, devastated after the Events in LotR, definitely in no shape for a rematch of the same order of magnitude.
That´s why every ounce of PC power shortens the lifespan of your campaign setting, with only very RP-heavy or totally RP-less play as alternative to acknowledging the "strain".
Core-SRD is powerful enough as it is, I wouldn´t want, as a GM, to introduce more power.

If that's the case, you DM very differently than I do. The way I see it, racial hit dice and such represent natural ability, while class levels represent training. My players rarely fight anything that doesn't have any class levels, and the assumption is that (nearly) everyone has them.

Morty
2007-03-24, 03:08 PM
As much as I like that Paladin fix, I'd have to agree with Kioran, nerfing down spellcasters is much better- even if harder- way to balance things out than to pump up meleers to their level- that's why I don't like the idea behind the ToB. Sure, core meleers may use some power-up, but ceratinly not to the spellcasters' level. That fix is very good though, as it gives paladins more flexibility.

belboz
2007-03-24, 11:17 PM
In some deep sense, of course, it doesn't matter, in terms of balance, whether you buff up the martial classes or nerf the spellcasters, with one exception--you have to make sure the CR system works with the power level you've ended up with, or you have to change it.

Even "works" is kind of vague here...since, for example, whether a party will really use up 20% of its resources defeating a particular encounter has as much to do with the combat skills of the players, the combat skills of the DM, the degrees to which everyone involved is willing to use/allow cheese, and whether and to what extent the DM is pulling punches as it does to do with what class features, feats, etc. are available.

One thing that, is think, is almost incontrovertably better about this Paladin than the original is that its class features are well spread-out over 20 levels. Maybe they should be made weaker (and full casters should be comparably nerfed); maybe not. But consistently growing power is FAR better than a class with 5 great levels and a whole lot of nothing (unless it's a five-level PrC).

flawed.Perfection
2007-03-26, 02:47 AM
I'm not going to continue the balance issue, though I really don't see anything really unbalanced here. I mean, let's be honest; the Core paladin was a puddle of dirt. It had some nice abilities in the first 4 levels and then you gained some minor spellcasting and that's it.

I do agree with buffing up the core melee classes, if only to make them more interesting. This is a class I would much rather play than the core paladin, looking at the abilities and options. Same goes for some fighter and ranger alterations I have seen going around. They just provide interesting abilities, nice specialization possibilities and are more fun to play then the meagre core classes.

Duke Malagigi
2007-03-26, 02:40 PM
What would you think of the addition of paladin variants based on different fighting styles, such as unarmored or lightly armored swashbuckling paladins? Mabye even paladins with a focus on ranged weapons such as firearms?

flawed.Perfection
2007-03-27, 03:55 AM
That's pushing it... I mean more in the variation between a fanatic zealot Paladin and a passionate, fighting-for-the-weak paladin. And a paladin can already focus on ranged, using feats; it's not something typical for Paladins, so specialization in it's level-progress: not really that good an idea...

Kioran
2007-03-27, 07:42 AM
What would you think of the addition of paladin variants based on different fighting styles, such as unarmored or lightly armored swashbuckling paladins? Mabye even paladins with a focus on ranged weapons such as firearms?

I thought that´s what the fighter class is for? You have tons of Feats which you can use to specialize in any desired direction of fighting or fighting style, plus a number of feats gained through ordinary progression.
Most things people desire to have can easily be achieved by using existing classes, core classes at that, multiclassing or liberally interpreting these classes (like, for example, Miyazaki Miko, who has a "social class" different from her core class).
The only real, and important problem addressed is the "front loaded" aspect, and Fax was right addressing that one. You do not, however, need a paladin class more versatile than the fighter, versatility in all things martial is his Job. other martial classes are still specialists.

Morty
2007-03-28, 01:10 PM
Just curious: did anyone attempt to build a standard Lawful Good fall-when-kill-innocent paladin using this variant?
Also, there shouldn't be "Aura of Good" in the stat block since this paladin can be of Evil alignment.

belboz
2007-03-28, 02:56 PM
I think the following mantles will more or less duplicate standard Paladin powers: Purity, Redemption, Valor, Alliance, Diligence (a paladin can gain two more mantles in addition to these, which are a bonus that go beyond a standard paladin's powers). This gives the following Paladinic code:

-Never commit an evil act
-Never willingly associate with evil or the undead
-Always forgive those whose intentions were good
-Never use intimidation
-Protect your mount
-Never give up until all options are truly exhausted

I think the first line covers "don't kill the innocent." In general, it's not a bog-standard paladinic code (there are a lot of unforgiving paladins out there, and a lot who are happy to intimidate the evil; by contrast, a lot of paladinic codes have rules about honorable combat and lying, which the above does not--always being honorable in combat and never lying gains the paladin an extra attack bonus and a sense motive bonus, respectively), but it's not too wildly off.

In the other direction, the Paladin's code laid out in the SRD is, essentially, Purity, Justice (sort of), Honor (sort of--although the SRD is more concerned with poison and is not concerned with CDG/flanking/etc), Honesty, Perseverence (sort of; there's no mantle that really covers "punishing those who threaten innocents"), and Charity (sort of, although my guess is that few DMs interpret "help the needy" as running to 20% of the Paladin's treasure). This gives the following mantle abilities:

-Turn undead
-Diplomacy bonus
-Charm ability
-Sense motive bonus
-Divination abilities
-Attack bonuses
-Detect Chaos
-Smite Chaos
-DR/SR for allies

Plus one mantle left over; probably Alliance (which gives a mount for, effectively, free, plus the opportunity cost of taking the mantle).

Theodoxus
2007-04-08, 11:44 PM
I really think the Ranger should be recrafted around this concept. Basically you have 'Fighter' who can specialize in combat really specifically or broadly and is unrestricted by alignment; the the 'Paladin' who can fashion himself utilizing the mantles and probably taking direction from his god, and is limited to the four extreme alignments.

This leaves Ranger - who is basically the hybrid fighter/druid to the Paladin's hybrid fighter/cleric. As such, the Ranger should be relegated to only the 5 neutral alignments and have a similar theme (though 'mantle' doesn't fit the nature of the beast.) Heh, could just use 'natures'... have five natures to choose from 'neutral, good, evil, lawful, chaotic' with multiple traits in each that represent animal aspects or somesuch... Perhaps make them more like the talent trees from the upcoming Saga Edition of SWRPG.... With prereqs and escalating / branching abilities.

With the two classes together, you've completely covered the divine aspect of the fighter archetype. unfortunately, I have no idea where that puts the poor barbarian - but I never understood that class anyway, other than some extra speed an hps. Meh.

Theo

Morty
2007-04-09, 03:07 PM
I really think the Ranger should be recrafted around this concept. Basically you have 'Fighter' who can specialize in combat really specifically or broadly and is unrestricted by alignment; the the 'Paladin' who can fashion himself utilizing the mantles and probably taking direction from his god, and is limited to the four extreme alignments.

This leaves Ranger - who is basically the hybrid fighter/druid to the Paladin's hybrid fighter/cleric. As such, the Ranger should be relegated to only the 5 neutral alignments and have a similar theme (though 'mantle' doesn't fit the nature of the beast.) Heh, could just use 'natures'... have five natures to choose from 'neutral, good, evil, lawful, chaotic' with multiple traits in each that represent animal aspects or somesuch... Perhaps make them more like the talent trees from the upcoming Saga Edition of SWRPG.... With prereqs and escalating / branching abilities.

With the two classes together, you've completely covered the divine aspect of the fighter archetype. unfortunately, I have no idea where that puts the poor barbarian - but I never understood that class anyway, other than some extra speed an hps. Meh.

Theo

No. Let's not make rangers "nature paladins". Maybe it's just me, but rangers can really exist without making them tree-huggin' almost-druid hippies. And what's not understandable in barbarian?

Theodoxus
2007-04-09, 04:20 PM
Of course they can, but we call them Scouts.

Rangers are tree-huggin' hippies, who are the avenging (as opposed to defending druids) avatars of the trees. I didn't write them that way, TSR did, and the stereotype has stuck.

As for the Barbi - they were truly the last bastion for the lowly d12, and now with Knights and Warblades, they aren't even that. Conan holdout? seriously, I don't know. Rangers can do everything better than a barbi except take hits. If it weren't for Rage, which has caused more death to barbarians in my games than it ever helped - they'd be second class lightly armored fighters.

Seriously, they bring very little to the table that can't be more readily handled by any other melee class. If you're not lawful, taking a 1 level dip for the extra speed is great - provided you don't want to wear heavy armor. As a complete class, they're lacking - what's not not to understand?

Morty
2007-04-09, 04:49 PM
Of course they can, but we call them Scouts.

Rangers are tree-huggin' hippies, who are the avenging (as opposed to defending druids) avatars of the trees. I didn't write them that way, TSR did, and the stereotype has stuck.
Um. You do realize that if you design Ranger class properly, Ranger can be scout or tree-huggin' hippie? In fact, I don't see any problem with that in Core D&D.


As for the Barbi - they were truly the last bastion for the lowly d12, and now with Knights and Warblades, they aren't even that. Conan holdout? seriously, I don't know. Rangers can do everything better than a barbi except take hits. If it weren't for Rage, which has caused more death to barbarians in my games than it ever helped - they'd be second class lightly armored fighters.

Seriously, they bring very little to the table that can't be more readily handled by any other melee class. If you're not lawful, taking a 1 level dip for the extra speed is great - provided you don't want to wear heavy armor. As a complete class, they're lacking - what's not not to understand?

This makes no sense. Rage is Barbarians' main class feature, and it makes them at least on par with other melee classes, and is what makes barbarians different, along with other minor class features. I can't really see how Rage can casue death to Barbarian. And I can't really see Ranger fighting in melee better than Barbarian.

fireinthedust
2007-04-10, 06:12 AM
two things:

1) I'm finding players for a game where this is the paladin used. Would anyone want to playtest it? Good varients only, 4th level to start. Age of Portals, in the Finding Players section. Go for your life!

2) What about mantles for domains other than alignment? Like for "fire paladins" or whatever. Heck, a set of mantles for thralls of particular patrons, or beholder cults, would be fun.

MuteVampire
2007-04-10, 08:39 PM
I always thought the Barbarian was supposed to be the guy who doesn't bother trying to avoid hits, but (and I think you'll agree) for the purpose of being the guy best suited to take on things that easily ignore high AC, his damage reduction is nothing shy of pitiable. no matter the level, the DR barbs get is nothing shy of pitiful for that level. Double it and it's still fairly sad. Barbs as a class would make more sense if their DR was significantly higher, and/or they came with some way to get around spells.


I think the feel the class designers were shooting for with the barb is "tank" his hit points are generally staggering (especially if your GM is like mine and maximizes all hit points for everyone) and his ability to take a hit, when it does come, is generally higher than others (especially with the bonus HPs from Rage)

It could be argued that with a general power buff (level 1 barb ability, Rage hit points are lost first, [so when rage fades you don't die if you have the HP bonus-10 health left when it's over] better DR, some degree of SR possibly, [though that's out of the general feel for the class]) and perhaps some minor tweaking beyond this would balance out this under-powered class, though I leave it to people who have forgotten more about the rules than i'll ever know to figure out how bad a set of ideas these are

The only reason for adding on the barb power for better raging is there are spells and other means to get rage, but nobody does it like the master. Yes, anyone can have the Rage spell cast on them, but if they get the crap beat ou of them, they're going to be hurting somethin fierce afterwords. A barbarian, not so much

Theodoxus
2007-04-11, 01:50 PM
IMO, DR would be better served if it reduced from each source of damage... Get hit with a flaming greatax under the influence of Power Attack with 15 STR, and you'd get (1d12-DR) [axe] + (1d6-DR) [flaming] + (2x Power Attack bonus-DR) + (2-DR) [Str bonus]. So a 7th level barbi, with 1 point if DR against a 7th level fighter would take (0-11)+(0-5)+13+1 [average is 22 points] VS ((1-12)+(1-6)+14+2) - 1) [average is 25 points].

Not a huge difference, but it would help some. If it was likewise applied vs magical attacks, that'd help - and would be more in character than straight Spell Resistance would be. To really help the poor Barbi out - all the DR would be applied to each die of damage. Makes the highest level barbarians unhurtable by magic missile, and pretty much able to take a lot of damage spells at ground zero - but there are still plenty of things out there that would stop them cold.

A caveat might be they only have their DR when they aren't held, stunned, unconscious, etc. A cleric could Hold Person them and then minions could beat the barbi down.

Meh.

Still don't understand the reason for the class. Give fighters a Raging Talent tree and get rid of the goofy thing.

Khoran
2007-04-11, 06:02 PM
First off, let me say that I love this change to the Paladin class. I like that it is open to more alignments then LG and that the class has a very customizable feel. Quick questions on it though, if you don't mind.

First is just on the compatability between two of the mantles, specifically Freedom and Liberty. Does using the Charm granted by Liberty (or any charm spell.) conflict with the Freedom Mantle? I would just like a ruling on this.

Thanks for your time and thank you for designing this class. I'm planning to offer this option to my players when I next GM, assuming you don't mind.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-11, 06:35 PM
I would say that since charm person alters how they feel towards you but does not control them that it does not violate the Freedom mantle.

Feel free to use it. Let me know how it goes if you do.

Spikes01k
2007-04-11, 09:15 PM
Seams overpowered! No base class has Full BAB, D10 HD, spells however small they are, and TWO good saves!!

Fax Celestis
2007-04-11, 11:45 PM
Seams overpowered! No base class has Full BAB, D10 HD, spells however small they are, and TWO good saves!!

The Ranger has full BAB, more skills, casting, and a d8. The Paladin as presented in the PHB has full BAB, one good save, a d10, Divine Grace, as well as casting. The Duskblade (PHB-II) has full BAB, two good saves, a d8, and better casting. The Hexblade (CWar) has full BAB, two good saves, a d8, and better casting.

There are others.

Wizard of the Coat
2007-04-16, 08:16 AM
I love the way it makes the paladin a playable class all the way up till 20th level. I also however feel it is overpowered, even when compared to the tome of battle classes, and I will briefly try and explain why this is. Quite a few of the abilities use social role playing restrictions as a means of balancing in game mechanical bonuses. This should not a balancing factor as that implies that all characters should be given these bonuses if they behaved in that manner. Being more focussed to these is an explaination, but still I believe it is unfair using a roleplaying restriction as a means of granting more power. ((note: I'm not saying they should not have these restrictions or should lose the powers, merely that it should not be used as an explaination for making the powers stronger)). Therefore non game mechanical restrictions should hardly be used for balancing abilities.

As most also have in-game mechanical penalties I believe this has been sufficiently taken into account. Yet when I view the kind of restrictions given and compare them to the bonuses it seems rather unbalanced yet again. For example the HONOR ability grants CHA to attack rolls and restricts flanking and tripping and such.

Tripping is mostly good for gaining a temporary bonus due to them being prone, yet forces you to waste an attack that otherwise could have cause damage. The bonus for the trip is +4 at most, which the honor ability offsets completely with a charisma bonus (which is easily +4 or higher for any paladin). So it's no penalty at all as there no longer is a need to trip an opponent to get this bonus.

Flanking only grants a +2 bonus and allows sneak attacks. Sneak attacks are not available to the paladin and the +2 is easily offset with the continues +4 or more bonus again again making it not a restriction, yet more of a continuous bonus. This would mostly be a restriction upon the paladins allies who could not take advantage of the flanks and thus effectively is taking from the allies to give to the paladin.

Tome of battle maneuvers are useful only a handfull of times per combat and not continuously granting +4 or more to hit and most of them are little more powerful then a smite attack, except for the very high level ones). ((general note on tome of battle: it seems the most that these classes have is re usability of fancy maneuvers each combat rather then set amounts of times each day; which is easy enough to build into core classes and should be build in to be honest))

To make it more balanced is to make the bonuses granted scale more with level and not given instantly as currently the amount of bonuses given by a single mantle could be used by most core classes to fill up all levels, even most tome of battle classes would be able to use two to fill up their level based benifits and the rest to ofset their martial maneuvers and these classes don't have 2 good saves, a host of additional class abilities smite/divine grace etc... and some limited spellcasting.

fireinthedust
2007-04-16, 08:37 AM
I don't know if i agree with that, Wiz. In-character restrictions are under-valued by some goups that don't rp as much as others; but number retrictions also depend on the DM to enforce it.

As it stands with the standard Paladin, their code is only an issue if the DM enforces certain aspects or challenges. example: the badguys have a gem, they're uber powerful so the PCs can fight them BUT the paladin isn't allowed to steal. that's an RP challenge.

Granted, tripping and flanking might not come up in a kick-in-the-door encounter with orcs or standard monsters BUT what if the PCs are not allowed to kill a foe (like a CG Titan who's charmed by a cursed Helm), and have no chance to grapple him. Let's say they also don't have immobilization magic. The Paladin, who's the tank of the party, is the only one who could trip the Target, but isn't allowed to. Meanwhile the rest of the party is worried about getting stomped or exploded.

I think style of play definitely alters what is powerful and what isn't. raw kick-in-the-door play maybe yes, raw RP maybe no.

A class that gets loads of extra attacks of op, or doesn't incur them easily, might be useless if the DM doesnt use that rule. Ditto spell resistance if the DM uses only tank badguys.

although that's just my 2cp (adventures should be tailored to PCs, right?), and for all I know it's an abomination of a class ;)
Maybe 2 good saves are a bit much;

FAX: would you consider giving them the monk progression for saves? Or something?

Wizard of the Coat
2007-04-16, 09:09 AM
I don't know if i agree with that, Wiz. In-character restrictions are under-valued by some goups that don't rp as much as others; but number retrictions also depend on the DM to enforce it.

As it stands with the standard Paladin, their code is only an issue if the DM enforces certain aspects or challenges. example: the badguys have a gem, they're uber powerful so the PCs can fight them BUT the paladin isn't allowed to steal. that's an RP challenge.

Granted, tripping and flanking might not come up in a kick-in-the-door encounter with orcs or standard monsters BUT what if the PCs are not allowed to kill a foe (like a CG Titan who's charmed by a cursed Helm), and have no chance to grapple him. Let's say they also don't have immobilization magic. The Paladin, who's the tank of the party, is the only one who could trip the Target, but isn't allowed to. Meanwhile the rest of the party is worried about getting stomped or exploded.

I think style of play definitely alters what is powerful and what isn't. raw kick-in-the-door play maybe yes, raw RP maybe no.

A class that gets loads of extra attacks of op, or doesn't incur them easily, might be useless if the DM doesnt use that rule. Ditto spell resistance if the DM uses only tank badguys.

although that's just my 2cp (adventures should be tailored to PCs, right?), and for all I know it's an abomination of a class ;)
Maybe 2 good saves are a bit much;

FAX: would you consider giving them the monk progression for saves? Or something?

As with all things it is the DM which can make things interesting or chalenging. I've frequently played spellcasters in a number of RL games and I've never noticed them being any better as often RP was the awnser.
Still though I'm a firm believer that the game should be balanced in a non rp sense to ensure that in a straight fight each character has a chance to do something on roughly the same level as another. (mind you if I GM I usually restrict players to generic classes or use a classless system, so I may not be the best to argue what core classes should look like)

Aditionally I believe that rp should be encouraged only through rp benifits and hard coded mechanical things. If you are honorable and humble, the people will love you and your gods might bless you (independent on class). If you are vicious and cruel however, but manage to portrait the same honorable face cause your're that good a roleplayer then you too reap the benifits (though few roleplayers are good enough to deceive the gods themselves).

Also it might be a problem when facing the specific example laid down by you, but in any other fight he'd reign right over the fighter and even in that fight he could probably just deal non lethal damage to knock down the beasty (once more the -4 penalty isd ofset by charisma).

I'm not saying this is all bad, but there should be some "uses per day/uses per combat" restrictions upon these abilities to balance them.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-16, 10:16 AM
FAX: would you consider giving them the monk progression for saves? Or something?

No. Their saves are good as-is. You want better saves, take the Mantle that gives Cha-to-Saves.


Aditionally I believe that rp should be encouraged only through rp benifits and hard coded mechanical things. If you are honorable and humble, the people will love you and your gods might bless you (independent on class). If you are vicious and cruel however, but manage to portrait the same honorable face cause your're that good a roleplayer then you too reap the benifits (though few roleplayers are good enough to deceive the gods themselves).

It is indeed possible to be honorable and humble without this class, but this is the only one I've seen that provides mechanical benefits for restrictions on action. It is those mechanical benefits that make this Paladin a worthwhile endeavor, and make it usable in a party setting.

The core fighter-types are weak--incredibly weak, so much so that I prefer not to use them. As such, I balance everything I create towards the Tome of Battle classes as they are much more balanced with full casters than anything else out there. Yes, if you put this class into a regular game its going to be powerful. But remember, this Paladin has a number of weaknesses: first is its evolving code; second is its dependence on melee; third is its dependence on four attributes (Str, Con, Wis, Cha), five if you take particular Mantles.

Namillus
2007-04-19, 10:35 AM
Okay, so I'm new here, but I'm not one for introduction threads.

Decided to make my first post here, since I love this variant on the official Paladin.

However, I appear to have discovered a small error in the table: Namely, it is simply impossible for any character to get 0 level bonus spells (There's nothing on the key ability table), and therefore this version of the Paladin is spell-less for at least two levels. Is this, in fact, a misprint, or deliberate?

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I presume the Purity Mantle would qualify a Lawful Good Paladin under these rules for entry into the Gray Guard PrC? If so, how does the Sacrament of Trust ability work concerning the Mantles? Admittedly, if you possess the Justice Mantle it might be a waste of time...

Fax Celestis
2007-04-19, 11:13 AM
Okay, so I'm new here, but I'm not one for introduction threads.

Decided to make my first post here, since I love this variant on the official Paladin.

However, I appear to have discovered a small error in the table: Namely, it is simply impossible for any character to get 0 level bonus spells (There's nothing on the key ability table), and therefore this version of the Paladin is spell-less for at least two levels. Is this, in fact, a misprint, or deliberate?

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I presume the Purity Mantle would qualify a Lawful Good Paladin under these rules for entry into the Gray Guard PrC? If so, how does the Sacrament of Trust ability work concerning the Mantles? Admittedly, if you possess the Justice Mantle it might be a waste of time...

It is deliberate. The regular Paladin doesn't get spells for more levels than that, and doesn't get cantrips!

The Purity mantle would qualify one for the Gray Guard. Sacrament of Trust-Mantle interaction should be merely a greater allowance in the fluff-resolutions of the mantles.

Namillus
2007-04-19, 11:25 AM
Shouldn't the table read "-" for Orisons at first and second level, then? As it is, it implies that a Paladin should receive bonus Orisons where the rules state this is impossible. Just a thought. ^.^;

Fax Celestis
2007-04-19, 11:26 AM
Shouldn't the table read "-" for Orisons at first and second level, then? As it is, it implies that a Paladin should receive bonus Orisons where the rules state this is impossible. Just a thought. ^.^;

Yeah, probably.

Devils_Advocate
2007-04-20, 09:18 PM
I would say that since charm person alters how they feel towards you but does not control them that it does not violate the Freedom mantle.
... How is altering how someone feels not controlling them? Maybe it's not "commanding", which is what the Freedom Mantle specifically forbids, but it's certainly controlling.

And while someone might not object to their new feelings towards you after being charmed, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't have objected to being charmed before you charmed them, had they been given a chance to object. It's rather like how a deceased person's lack of objection to being dead doesn't mean that they wouldn't have objected to being killed when they were alive, if given a chance.

Note too the similarity between the arguments

"Well, you only have limited conrol over your own emotions anyway. You can already naturally feel things that you don't want to feel, so there's no additional harm done by me forcing you to feel something you don't want to"

and

"Well, you only have limited conrol over how long you live anyway. You can already die when you don't want to, so me killing you now doesn't worsen the situation."

Which isn't to say that charming someone is as Evil as killing him, only that it's just as coercive. Indeed, I should think it not even as Evil as striking him. Sure, charming alters his mind, presumably without his consent, but the latter forces the sensory experience of pain into his mind, also presumably without his consent, and getting hit in the face is generally less pleasant than making a new friend. Of course, after the spell wore off, whether he'd be any less upset about being charmed than he would have been about being punched would be a different matter. No doubt it would depend upon the individual in question.

In any case, charming people without their prior consent definitely wouldn't be a preferred problem-solving method for a champion of Good any more than violence would. Even moreso for a champion of Chaotic Good.

P.S. It would really be a good idea to come up with less generic names than "Rebel" and "Tyrant". Unless you're assuming that the names you're giving the subclasses will actually used by characters in-game, in which case, replace "a good idea" with "absurd not" in the previous sentence. :smalltongue:

MeklorIlavator
2007-04-20, 10:19 PM
I think the idea is that Charm is essentially diplomacy made easy, and therefore is no more evil in this case than the paladin using diplomacy. This isn't to say that if he abuses his powers he won't get in trouble, but that used in a non abusive manner the ability isn't too offensive.

And regarding the names, I think that the generic names are used because the classes themselves are so varied, and so that the players can come up with names themselves. I don't think anyone will call themselves the "Paladin:subclass rebel". The current names are place holders so that it is easier to refer to each of the paladins.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-20, 11:22 PM
I think the idea is that Charm is essentially diplomacy made easy, and therefore is no more evil in this case than the paladin using diplomacy. This isn't to say that if he abuses his powers he won't get in trouble, but that used in a non abusive manner the ability isn't too offensive.

And regarding the names, I think that the generic names are used because the classes themselves are so varied, and so that the players can come up with names themselves. I don't think anyone will call themselves the "Paladin:subclass rebel". The current names are place holders so that it is easier to refer to each of the paladins.

Exactly. On both counts.

Valairn
2007-04-30, 10:19 AM
I was recently struck with an idea on this thing. Instead of having a single capstone, have like 1 or 2 capstones per alignment that they could potentially choose from when they hit level 20. Might be a lot of work for one level, but really when someone takes a single class to level 20, options are never a bad thing.

Also, some people like the flavor of a more "earthy" paladin. Growing wings irks some, not me, I like shiny Tyrael wings.

Morty
2007-04-30, 10:44 AM
Yep, lack of wings is ceratinly good idea.

Wardog
2007-04-30, 06:23 PM
First, I'd just like to say:

This looks really neat: lots of interesting ideas, and for the most part nicely balanced. Looks like a lot of work went in to it, too. Well done!


However, there are a couple of things that seem a little odd/off to me, as well as a couple of alternative name suggestions:




Grace
The Paladin has sworn to protect his allies, with his life should the need arise. He loses all aspects of this mantle if an ally of his within 60' falls in combat before the Paladin falls.

Maybe rename this "sacrifice"?

Mercy
The Paladin has sworn an oath to never willingly harm non-evil creatures. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever knowingly kills a non-evil creature or performs a Coup de Grace attack.[/quote]

Does this include animals and vermin? Will the paladin fall if he swats a fly? Or kills a dangerous animal in defence of himself or others?

Maybe it should be changed to exclude animals and vermin (and anything else with int<3). On the other hand, perhaps a Merciful paladin should be expected to atleast make an attempt to spare even evil people. (E.g. he must spare any enemy that surrenders or begs for mercy, and should offer the chance to surrender where possible).

Peace
The Paladin holds himself to a peaceful standard in accordance with his god's wishes. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly enters into combat without trying to prevent it, or if he witnesses conflict without trying to prevent it.[/quote]

Does this "conflict" just mean combat, or does it include other forms of conflic (arguments etc)? And does it include conflict where both parties are involved willingly (e.g. a boxing match?)



Valor
A Paladin must be regal and valorous to combat the forces of evil. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he attempts to coerce or influence anyone through Intimidation.

This seems slightly inconsistent. Valor means courage, heroism, etc. Regal means like a king. One doesn't imply the other, and neither have any obvious negative relationship to intimidation.

If you want a "Valor" mantle, then the requirements could be to never flee from danger when the odds are in your favour, and never to flee - regardless of the odds - if doing so would leave others in danger.

Alternatively, a mantle that required the paladin to forgo intimidation could be "Diplomacy", although that would probably require different benefits as well.

Honor
The Paladin holds himself to honorable standards of combat set down by his god. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever feints, trips, or gains the benefits of flanking in combat.


No feints seems a bit harsh to me. A feint is just moving your weapon in such a way as to make it harder for your opponent to predict what you are doing. I don't think anyone would reasonably consider it to be dishonourable. Maybe this should be replaced with prohibitions on coup-de-grace, dirty fighting (both the feat and any behaviour that could be considered dirty fighting), and requiring the paladin to always announce his presence before a fight. Possibly also to always (or at least to attept to) ensure his opponent has a fighting chance.

Discretion
A Paladin must protect themselves and not rush into combat. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he takes damage in the first round of combat.

"Discretion" sounds too positive a word for an Evil mantle. I'm not sure what would be better though. Maybe change this to "Cowardice", keep the same bonus, and make the paladin lose the bonus if he ever deliberately warns his victim before he makes an attack.

Liberty
The Paladin is committed to freeing all creatures from needless rules and regulations. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he does not fight for justice and equality among all beings, or if he prejudices against another being.



Oh, and just to be nit-picky: technically, tithe means a 10% tax.
Charity
The Paladin has sworn to tithe at least 20% of all his earnings (including treasure) to charity and the church. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he fails to tithe that amount.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-30, 06:39 PM
Maybe rename this "sacrifice"?
Nah. I think Grace works better.


Does this include animals and vermin? Will the paladin fall if he swats a fly? Or kills a dangerous animal in defence of himself or others?

Maybe it should be changed to exclude animals and vermin (and anything else with int<3). On the other hand, perhaps a Merciful paladin should be expected to atleast make an attempt to spare even evil people. (E.g. he must spare any enemy that surrenders or begs for mercy, and should offer the chance to surrender where possible).

It probably shouldn't include unintelligent creatures.


Does this "conflict" just mean combat, or does it include other forms of conflic (arguments etc)? And does it include conflict where both parties are involved willingly (e.g. a boxing match?)
Any conflict, regardless of who, when, or how.


This seems slightly inconsistent. Valor means courage, heroism, etc. Regal means like a king. One doesn't imply the other, and neither have any obvious negative relationship to intimidation.

If you want a "Valor" mantle, then the requirements could be to never flee from danger when the odds are in your favour, and never to flee - regardless of the odds - if doing so would leave others in danger.

Alternatively, a mantle that required the paladin to forgo intimidation could be "Diplomacy", although that would probably require different benefits as well.

It may be slightly inconsistent, but it is the image I want to portray with that particular mantle.


No feints seems a bit harsh to me. A feint is just moving your weapon in such a way as to make it harder for your opponent to predict what you are doing. I don't think anyone would reasonably consider it to be dishonourable. Maybe this should be replaced with prohibitions on coup-de-grace, dirty fighting (both the feat and any behaviour that could be considered dirty fighting), and requiring the paladin to always announce his presence before a fight. Possibly also to always (or at least to attept to) ensure his opponent has a fighting chance.

"Feint" in this case means the combat action of using a Bluff check to feint your foe so he is flat-footed.


"Discretion" sounds too positive a word for an Evil mantle. I'm not sure what would be better though. Maybe change this to "Cowardice", keep the same bonus, and make the paladin lose the bonus if he ever deliberately warns his victim before he makes an attack.

"Discretion" can still be an ideal for the evil. A thief is discreet, as is an assassin.


Oh, and just to be nit-picky: technically, tithe means a 10% tax.

I know, but the point is made.

Magnor Criol
2007-05-01, 05:22 AM
All of my comments center, as most people's, on the Mantles. Just a few details which in general are more fluff-based than not; overall I think this an awesome redux of the class.
Also, apologies if these have been mentioned before. I don't have the time at the moment to sift through the other pages of this thread (technically, I don't have the time now to post this, but...)


Conviction, Zeal, Bravado - losing these mantles upon a failed smite attack seems, themewise, a bad match. Those behaviors and traits are all about, basically, acting first and asking questions later, so smiting a creature that they honestly believed was a certain alignment, even if they were wrong, shouldn't count against them. It's about believing and acting in what you believe in, not about discerning where someone stands and giving them a chance to back out.
Think of Miko, actually: She tried Smite Evil on Roy because she honestly thought he was evil, based on circumstances. Her conviction or zeal led her to act on the conclusion, without taking the time to sit down and ask first. (Bravado would produce a similar result, but Miko didn't have bravado.)
Perhaps if it were changed to a loss of the mantle if the paladin consciously fails to smite an appropriate creature in battle when they have smite attempts remaining, or something along those lines; in that case, the paladin would have decided not to act on their beliefs, in some ways questioning them. Something where a paladin willfully decides to forestay from punishing what they view as a wrong choice in alignment, rather than punishing them for acting on conclusions drawn thanks to their beliefs.

Patience, Preserverance - I think that them suddenly not needing to breathe is a bit of an odd thing; it stands out somehow. But, that's just me, and it fits with the other abilities granted.
The effects gained from Patience seem to be a bit more appropriate under the mantle Preserverance (if you can last longer with out sleep, you're preservering, etc.) But then, I don't know where you'd stick what you currently have under Preserverance, and I like those bonuses.

Discretion - This has already been covered just above, but still. Just the word's feel..."Discretion is the better part of Valor," and with Valor being a good mantle...Perhaps "Self-Preservation"? Except that's similar language-wise to Survival. Not sure, and it can definitely work fine here, it's simply a matter of the connotation a word carries with it.

Anarchy - I'd define 'authority' a little better. What of a chaotic paladin who defers to a more experienced adventurer on the authority of his greater experience? Any time you submit, you recognize that somehow, they have authority over you in some way. "Authority due to law" or something, since I assume that's what you're getting at.
This is also an exceedingly powerful granted ability, isn't it? Essentially, the paladin and all his chums in the area get a risk-less reroll for all damage rolls, they just roll both at the same time instead of spreading them out. But I guess since it's just damage rolls, it's not as much of a deal as it initially sounds.


Also, I think it'd be interesting if the atonements were tinted a little to the alignment they're for; specifically, I'm thinking that for the chaotic mantles, it'd be interesting if some of the atonements had little to nothing to do with their mantles, or if they required some sort of roll to determine. The other alignments already do that already to some extent, it's mostly chaotic mantles that'd need the tweaking if you wanted to do this. I'm not sure if it's feasible, but it certainly would be interesting.

The questions I raised are just fluffs and minor mechanics; as-is the class is excellent themewise and shipshape mechanically. I love the way it's been worked into a class that both punishes and rewards for character behavior, something a paladin really needs to do because of its nature, and I also love how with the mantles the paladin really becomes a party-picker-upper.



Any conflict, regardless of who, when, or how.

I think that something like a boxing match would be less a conflict and more of a competition. Both parties are willing and enjoying themselves, or at least they both volunteered, etc. (Of course, someone forced into a boxing match or something would be a different situation.) Does the mantle allow for a differentiation between conflict and competition like this?

Beren One-Hand
2007-05-02, 10:27 PM
Very Nicely Done!

Just a few more minor changes in the mantle text that I noticed.
The Freedom mantle still includes the phrase: "If a creature perishes while held by any form of this spell, the Paladin loses all aspects of this mantle."

Also the attonement for the mount mantles seems a bit harsh. If your mount dies you're fallen until you gather enough gold to buy a True Resurection or can mount a planar expedition in hopes to find a specific dead horse lying around?!
You might want to remove the clause about the mount dissapearing when it dies to make it reasonable that you can atone for its death.

Valairn
2007-05-03, 01:13 AM
Its my understanding, that failing to qualify for a mantle only affects that particular mantle, excluding alignment changes.

Lord Tataraus
2007-05-15, 12:19 PM
Wow, good job! I haven't read through everything, but I was wondering if you could clear this up. For all of the abilities that effect allies in a radius, does the paladin benefit from the ability as well?

Fax Celestis
2007-05-15, 12:41 PM
Wow, good job! I haven't read through everything, but I was wondering if you could clear this up. For all of the abilities that effect allies in a radius, does the paladin benefit from the ability as well?

Yes, they do.

Dryad
2007-05-18, 11:24 PM
I cannot agree with the chaotic mantles. Being chaotic means you completely ignore codes of conduct all the time. It doesn't mean you break them in order to be true to your code of conduct.
For example: A king proposes something. You know he is right in his proposal, that it is wisest to do. You agree with him. Yet; you rebel against his discussion because your code of conduct tells you to.
That's not chaotic; that's lawful. Lawful is all about following codes of conduct, or, in the case of lawful evil, abusing the rules for your own betterment, over the backs of most people.

So you cannot have a chaotic mantle; a true chaotic character will look at a situation, and do whatever suits that situation in order to achieve her goals. And if that means breaking the rules, well, you just do so. So a chaotic character would constantly break the codes to her chaotic mantles.

A lawful Neutral Paladin, by the way, makes perfect sense. You follow your code; the code is all that matters. If that code is a code of good, you'll follow it. Not because it's Good, but because it's the Code.
Most truly devoted people could be called Lawful Neutral. Not devoted to the Good Cause, but devoted to the Ideology. You could compare it to christianity. The message of Jesus was: Love the other as you do yourself. Most Christians aren't exactly good, and the devoted ones sometimes fall in the category of Evil, but they are all devoted to a christian Code of Conduct.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-18, 11:30 PM
I cannot agree with the chaotic mantles. Being chaotic means you completely ignore codes of conduct all the time. It doesn't mean you break them in order to be true to your code of conduct.
For example: A king proposes something. You know he is right in his proposal, that it is wisest to do. You agree with him. Yet; you rebel against his discussion because your code of conduct tells you to.
That's not chaotic; that's lawful. Lawful is all about following codes of conduct, or, in the case of lawful evil, abusing the rules for your own betterment, over the backs of most people.

So you cannot have a chaotic mantle; a true chaotic character will look at a situation, and do whatever suits that situation in order to achieve her goals. And if that means breaking the rules, well, you just do so. So a chaotic character would constantly break the codes to her chaotic mantles.

A lawful Neutral Paladin, by the way, makes perfect sense. You follow your code; the code is all that matters. If that code is a code of good, you'll follow it. Not because it's Good, but because it's the Code.
Most truly devoted people could be called Lawful Neutral. Not devoted to the Good Cause, but devoted to the Ideology. You could compare it to christianity. The message of Jesus was: Love the other as you do yourself. Most Christians aren't exactly good, and the devoted ones sometimes fall in the category of Evil, but they are all devoted to a christian Code of Conduct.


"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

Nothing about that says "I must break all rules". What it does say is that chaotic characters tend toward freedom, flexibility, recklessness, etc.

Dryad
2007-05-19, 05:55 AM
He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever tells the whole truth or rolls a natural 1 on a Bluff check.

He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever leaves a defeated foe alive

He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever uses magic to arrest or control someone.
Just to put some examples down. It's clearly a code of conduct, and a chaotic character doesn't decide on code of conduct, but on the situation itself. Because of the freedom. If she ever decides it is wisest to submit to authority in a certain situation, this should not be a problem with her losing her mantle, since she is a free character, and can decide what is better in given situations.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-20, 12:04 PM
Just to put some examples down. It's clearly a code of conduct, and a chaotic character doesn't decide on code of conduct, but on the situation itself. Because of the freedom. If she ever decides it is wisest to submit to authority in a certain situation, this should not be a problem with her losing her mantle, since she is a free character, and can decide what is better in given situations.

Er, as I said before, Chaotic != unable to follow a code of conduct. Chaotic means "free spririted." One can be Chaotic and still follow a moral guideline.

Dryad
2007-05-20, 08:28 PM
Hmmm.. Monster in the village, tearing it down.. The only way I can take it out is: Grab my wand of imprisonment, and fire it at the creature!
Whoops; there goes my mantle. But what the hell; I'm chaotic...

So yeah; I've defeated my foe, and I had to, because my foe was, with her actions, threatening society. I don't particularly hate her, and she really deserves a chance.
Whoops; there goes my mantle. Oh, well, I'm chaotic, so why should I care?

I really had to tell the group everything about the situation before we enter said dungeon. If I don't do something silly like tell them I am purple, I'm going to lose my mantle. Because my code of conduct tells me I HAVE to lie to them.
But hey; I'm chaotic, and these codes really hold me back. So goodbye to them.

See what I mean? As a chaotic character, I wouldn't give a damn about abovementioned codes; I'd do what would seem to be right in the situation. Morale guideline; yes. Of course. But these aren't moral; they're codes. And if a code isn't practical to a chaotic character, she dismisses them.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-20, 10:11 PM
Hmmm.. Monster in the village, tearing it down.. The only way I can take it out is: Grab my wand of imprisonment, and fire it at the creature!
Whoops; there goes my mantle. But what the hell; I'm chaotic...

So yeah; I've defeated my foe, and I had to, because my foe was, with her actions, threatening society. I don't particularly hate her, and she really deserves a chance.
Whoops; there goes my mantle. Oh, well, I'm chaotic, so why should I care?

I really had to tell the group everything about the situation before we enter said dungeon. If I don't do something silly like tell them I am purple, I'm going to lose my mantle. Because my code of conduct tells me I HAVE to lie to them.
But hey; I'm chaotic, and these codes really hold me back. So goodbye to them.

See what I mean? As a chaotic character, I wouldn't give a damn about abovementioned codes; I'd do what would seem to be right in the situation. Morale guideline; yes. Of course. But these aren't moral; they're codes. And if a code isn't practical to a chaotic character, she dismisses them.

...and by dismissing them foregoes the gift from her deity. I really don't see what's so hard about this.

Karma Guard
2007-05-21, 01:48 AM
Hmmm.. Monster in the village, tearing it down.. The only way I can take it out is: Grab my wand of imprisonment, and fire it at the creature!
Whoops; there goes my mantle. But what the hell; I'm chaotic...

But if you have that mantle, you're not going to have a Wand of Imprisonment in the first place. Because it doesn't match the ideal of your god, or you just don't think that stuff is cool. But if you just happen to have one and you really do believe it's the best course of action, then you'll take the loss of the mantle and...atone! Because Paladins can do that.


So yeah; I've defeated my foe, and I had to, because my foe was, with her actions, threatening society. I don't particularly hate her, and she really deserves a chance.
Whoops; there goes my mantle. Oh, well, I'm chaotic, so why should I care?

But if you've promised a god to behave in a certain manner, then you need to follow the guidelines, or else you're a bad follower who doesn't deserve the power that comes with it. And if you're an Ethos Paladin and don't like the consequences? Don't take it. :V!


See what I mean? As a chaotic character, I wouldn't give a damn about above mentioned codes; I'd do what would seem to be right in the situation. Morale guideline; yes. Of course. But these aren't moral; they're codes. And if a code isn't practical to a chaotic character, she dismisses them.

That's your interpretation of a Chaotic person. The ones who take those mantles will behave in a way that conforms to those mantles' rules either because they're already like that (Ethos Paladins), or because they believe in that Deity's way of doing stuff. You conform to that deity's ideal of Chaotic Whatever, or you don't get the prizes.

It's not that difficult, dude.

Dryad
2007-05-21, 05:04 AM
See; conforming to that deity's ethos just like that, in order to gain the mantles... That's lawful, in my book, gal.
I've played many chaotic good characters. I've had one chaotic character who never asked for a reward, because if she did so, she'd done it for her reward, and that would ruin her deed. That was a lawful aspect of that character, true, and has been broken once or twice, when a reward came in handy in order to get another thing done. (I asked for an orphanage as a reward.) She didn't care about rules, see. She only cared about doing to right thing; make people happy.
Granted, she addressed kings with 'Oi, you!'
Point is: She did have ethics, but no moral codes. There was right, and there was wrong, and that was it. If I'd play a chaotic-mantled paladin, I'd not have any mantles, because I'd break them all the time. To her, any rule would simply be a hindrance.

Reinboom
2007-05-21, 07:36 AM
Discord
The Paladin is dedicated to sowing chaos and discord in his wake. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever tells the whole truth or rolls a natural 1 on a Bluff check.

The Paladin adds Bluff to his class skills and receives a sacred bonus to Bluff checks equal to 1/2 his class level (rounded up). In addition, the Paladin can spend 20 points of his Lay on Hands ability to inflict a confusion effect (as the spell) to a creature he touches.

Atonement Method: The Paladin must succeed on a Bluff check with a natural 20.


I had to reread through this.. however, this loss and atonement seams strange to me.
You can roll a natural 1 on a bluff and still pass it, for example.
Also, actively trying to bluff NPCs rapidly after you lose the mantle by complete chance = quick atonement. This mantle wouldn't be off for very long at all.
So, after lying to the king's face about there not being any more treasures found, and the king believing you, but due to your natural 1 (which... the king believed you, I didn't think dice was actually apparent -in game-, only the effects of them -- er -- sans fatespinner). You abruptly lose your mantle, even though you where following your god's wishes. Strange.
Well... looks like I have to go ramble on to the king's fool of I going through glorious battles that I never actually went through until one of them accidentally triggers me getting my mantle back. (ie: roll a natural 20)

For the codes.. an enforcement of freedom of bindings feels more neutral on the law vs chaos axis to me. an extreme enforcement of these freedoms would be more chaotic, but still must be emphasized for the right reasons.

With that, I believe the chaotic should still follow a 'code', although should be a bit more loose. Paladins, to me, unlike most characters don't just fall under an alignment, they enforce that alignment. They make that alignment into their own walking nature, mortal representations of the gods for which they exalt.

Raven T.
2007-05-21, 11:58 AM
First, I would like to say that this is a nice change. It does, however, raise a couple questions:

First, Prudence and Triumph. It seems like these can work together in a "If it's too strong, don't fight it...but if we CAN win, we should give the enemy no quarter." My interpretation of this comes from the idea that "standing down the attack" can only happen if you attack in the first place. If the outcome is questionable, wait until it's not.

Secondly, Luck. You lose your power if you don't reroll a Natural 1. What happens if you are extremely unlucky as a roller and expend your daily uses of rerolling? Do you lose your power just because the dice are being mean on a particular night? What if the DM decides to keep you from resting within a dungeon? It doesn't seem totally fair.

I eagerly look forward to when I can actually be able to start buying books so I can try this out.

Wardog
2007-05-23, 11:34 AM
Just to put some examples down. It's clearly a code of conduct, and a chaotic character doesn't decide on code of conduct, but on the situation itself. Because of the freedom. If she ever decides it is wisest to submit to authority in a certain situation, this should not be a problem with her losing her mantle, since she is a free character, and can decide what is better in given situations.

Isn't that what a Neutral character would do though - making decisions based on the circumstances rather than caring about "rules"?

IMO, in a LG society, LG and NG characters would be pretty hard to distinguish by their actions alone. Similarly, NG and CG characters would be hard to distiguish if they were in a LE society.

You wouldn't be able to determin their alignments without involving them in a deep philosophical/political/religious debate.


So anyway, what I'm saying is that - by my understanding of the alignments - Chaotic doesn't simply mean they adapt to circumstance, it means they actively dislike rules and regulations and being expected to work to a plan.

Although that doesn't mean they must always disobey all rules (that would be Chaotic Stupid). And if someone is CG, they would still have a code of conduct to follow - namely "be/do good, don't be/do evil".

IMO, if someone has absolutely no code of conduct at all, they would be CN or CE. (I say CE, because while being Good obliges you to care for others, Evil doesn't oblige you to harm others, but if your erratic, codeless actions caused lots of harm, and you didn't care about it, you would be Evil nonetheless).

Dryad
2007-05-23, 09:46 PM
No...
A NG character cares more for good than for laws, but will follow the regulations more often than not. A chaotic character simply doesn't care for regulations, codes of conduct, honour, or any, and will break them compulsory. Because chaotic characters simply don't think about them. CG characters do think of the well-being of others first and foremost, but will simply not comply to any expectations knowingly. Because they really aren't very aware of them, simply because they choose not to.
Acting to the well-being of others is not the same as abiding to a code of conduct, code of honour, or promises be kept.
For example: Lawful good character meets goodly king. King commands her to go on a quest. *Bows* My liege, I will do as you ask of me.
Neutral good character. *Stands* Allright, milord.
Chaotic character: *glares* Where's your manners, mate?

Fax Celestis
2007-05-23, 09:58 PM
No...
A NG character cares more for good than for laws, but will follow the regulations more often than not. A chaotic character simply doesn't care for regulations, codes of conduct, honour, or any, and will break them compulsory. Because chaotic characters simply don't think about them. CG characters do think of the well-being of others first and foremost, but will simply not comply to any expectations knowingly. Because they really aren't very aware of them, simply because they choose not to.
Acting to the well-being of others is not the same as abiding to a code of conduct, code of honour, or promises be kept.


What you are describing is commonly known as "chaotic stupid."

EDIT: Let me clarify.

A chaotic character does not play by society's rules, granted, but there is absolutely no reason they can't follow their own rules (particularly if they go against socially accepted norms).

Drager
2007-06-19, 04:08 PM
Mind if I pinch this?

Poppatomus
2007-06-19, 04:32 PM
What you are describing is commonly known as "chaotic stupid."

EDIT: Let me clarify.

A chaotic character does not play by society's rules, granted, but there is absolutely no reason they can't follow their own rules (particularly if they go against socially accepted norms).

I've always understood it as a counterpart to the description of chaotic evil. as the PhB says, if I remember correctly, chaotic evil is "the worst alignment" because it opposes not only life, but the order on which life depends.

To me, chaotic characters embody that same ideal (without the destroying life bit). They aren't just absent a law book, they oppose the existence of law books. They believe that good and freedom flourish in the absence of law, and, given the choice, would tear up the code books and smash the tablets of law.

They can follow their own rules, in the sense that their behavior is not "random," but they don't believe it's even possible to create some framework to describe what the "right" action is in each instance and They violently reject the idea that anyone else shoudl be bound by such a code made by someone else.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-19, 05:17 PM
Mind if I pinch this?

Go right ahead.


I've always understood it as a counterpart to the description of chaotic evil. as the PhB says, if I remember correctly, chaotic evil is "the worst alignment" because it opposes not only life, but the order on which life depends.

To me, chaotic characters embody that same ideal (without the destroying life bit). They aren't just absent a law book, they oppose the existence of law books. They believe that good and freedom flourish in the absence of law, and, given the choice, would tear up the code books and smash the tablets of law.

They can follow their own rules, in the sense that their behavior is not "random," but they don't believe it's even possible to create some framework to describe what the "right" action is in each instance and They violently reject the idea that anyone else shoudl be bound by such a code made by someone else.

Your interpretation is only partially true. From the SRD:


Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.

...

"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

"Resentment towards authority" doesn't equal "Kill all law books"; it means that the character may or may not folllow laws, depending on convenience. However, a personal code of conduct, particularly one that emphasizes freedom and flexibility--especially one that emphasizes bringing those ideals to others, such as the code presented here--is not beyond them. A chaotic paladin under this system "[helps] people to express themselves fully and [helps] society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them."

Poppatomus
2007-06-19, 05:30 PM
Go right ahead.
"Resentment towards authority" doesn't equal "Kill all law books"; it means that the character may or may not folllow laws, depending on convenience. However, a personal code of conduct, particularly one that emphasizes freedom and flexibility--especially one that emphasizes bringing those ideals to others, such as the code presented here--is not beyond them. A chaotic paladin under this system "[helps] people to express themselves fully and [helps] society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them."

We agree completely. I overstated my case and you've presented what I was trying to say more clearly than I did. thanks

Fax Celestis
2007-06-19, 05:30 PM
Ah. Well, good then.

mauslin
2007-06-19, 07:00 PM
Any conflict, regardless of who, when, or how.


Just to be really anal, what about a friendly game of chess? Arguably, that is a form of conflict.

I think any sane DM wouldn't count not stopping a chess game as a violation of the mantle.

Also, what if stopping a conflict would logically lead to greater conflict?

i.e. Two gangs decide to settle a conflict via a duel between thier leaders. If the duel is stopped, both sides will call foul play and full-scale gang warfare will result.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-19, 07:05 PM
Just to be really anal, what about a friendly game of chess? Arguably, that is a form of conflict.

I think any sane DM wouldn't count not stopping a chess game as a violation of the mantle.

Also, what if stopping a conflict would logically lead to greater conflict?

i.e. Two gangs decide to settle a conflict via a duel between thier leaders. If the duel is stopped, both sides will call foul play and full-scale gang warfare will result.

You bring up a good point. DM Fiat plays a large part in determining what is and what isn't a violation of a mantle.

Still, the paladin should, in the case of the gangs, attempt to prevent any conflict and resolve the issues peaceably.

mauslin
2007-06-19, 07:11 PM
Secondly, Luck. You lose your power if you don't reroll a Natural 1. What happens if you are extremely unlucky as a roller and expend your daily uses of rerolling? Do you lose your power just because the dice are being mean on a particular night? What if the DM decides to keep you from resting within a dungeon? It doesn't seem totally fair.


Umm, to me this makes perfect sense, and is actually really cool. It's the bloody Luck mantle! Of course you should lose it for being unlucky.

IMO the point of this mantle is that it's basically unreliable, just like luck itself. Accepting the will of fickle Lady Luck as part of your code of conduct means not just accepting her when she's nice, but when she's nasty too.

I'm actually really impressed by this mantle's design.

Aris Katsaris
2007-06-20, 01:14 AM
Accepting the will of fickle Lady Luck as part of your code of conduct means not just accepting her when she's nice, but when she's nasty too.

To quote Phoebe from Friends (after she won a coin-toss she was convinced she'd lose because "the coins hated her"):

"The coins have finally forgiven me!"

psychoticbarber
2007-06-20, 10:12 PM
I don't really have anything to add, but I would like to say that I think this is a brilliant Paladin re-work and I will be bugging future DMs to let me use it.

*Yoinkage!*

TheOOB
2007-06-20, 11:03 PM
Really, i think this class serves as a good guideline on how all base classes should be designed, not so much because it has a modular, player driver code of conduct (which is, IMO, much better then a unchanged code handed down from the high spooky wizards of the coast.), but the idea of modular class abilities that change and grow as you gain power, making each character truely unique. Given several classes have ability choice built in (rogues have special abilities, clerics have domains, and so on) but those choices are usually fairly minor. On the other hand, this class the choices are the majory portion of your build. Sure all paladins have a few things they all share(smites, lay on hands, divine spells), but a CE paladin is nothing like a LG paladin, heck two LG paladins can be completely different.

Plus, this class is also fairly balanced. Sure a good cleric or wizard will still wipe the floor with a HiSB Pali(not that those classes are "balanced" by any stretch of the imagination), but this class can stand up tall and fight beside a warblade or a psion, not overshadowing them, yet not being overshadowed themselves (assuming you don't go out of your way to pick a horrible mantle combination.)

On a completely different note, this has to be one of the longest running threads on the board, it was made like 4 months ago and still (semi) active.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-21, 10:48 AM
On a completely different note, this has to be one of the longest running threads on the board, it was made like 4 months ago and still (semi) active.

And that's not even counting the v1.0 thread.

Cray
2007-07-24, 01:59 AM
Paladin Progression
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4
1st | +1 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Lay on Hands, Aura of Good | 0 | - | - | - | - | -
2nd | +2 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Divine Grace, Mantle of Faith | 0 | - | - | - | -
3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Smite 1/day | 1 | - | - | - | -
4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Mantle of Faith | 1 | - | - | - | -
5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Smite 2/day | 1 | 0 | - | - | -
6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +2 | +5 | - | 2 | 0 | - | - | -
7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Mantle of Faith | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +6 | Smite 3/day | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +3 | +6 | - | 2 | 1 | 0 | - | -
10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Mantle of Faith | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | -
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Smite 4/day | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +4 | +8 | - | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Mantle of Faith | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | -
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +9 | Smite 5/day | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | -
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +5 | +9 | - | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Mantle of Faith | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Smite 6/day | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +11 | - | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Mantle of Faith | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +12 | Smite 7/day, Divine Transformation | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 [/table]


Ah, sorry, if this has been asked befor, but... the Paladins spell list doesnt have any lvl 0 spells...

Fax Celestis
2007-07-24, 11:41 AM
The Paladin's spell list is expanded by this class to include all Cleric 0th level spells.

Beren One-Hand
2007-07-24, 05:35 PM
One little nitpick about that is that the paladin now has some spells with two different spell levels, since some of the 0-level cleric spells were pulled for 1st-level paladin spells.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-24, 05:59 PM
In that case, use the lower spell level.

Fusecase
2007-07-24, 10:47 PM
Hello, I bring three things to this thread.
First, fantastic job on the design and fluff of this overhaul, keep up the admirable work.

Second, lets say a paladin has taken the piety mantle. How I read it says that they must pray for an hour, five times a day. This would take nine hours out of the 14-16 hours that are available.
Am I wrong in assuming that the paladin may pray while fighting, eating (Using written prayers), donning clothes/armor, bathing, etc. so they can have enough time devoted to communicating to their god?

Third, does the aforementioned piety mantle give the paladin twice their charisma along with one fourth of their level to all saving throws including divine grace?

ImpFireball
2007-07-30, 09:37 PM
I think the chaotic good paladin should have a sort of mercy kill mantle. In that they kill a creature that is suffering. Reason for that, is at least they follow up with being good. Because not all rebels have to be chaotic good. A good guy actually believes in what he's doing politically in the bigger picture, whereas another supposed rebel leader might be insighting violence in order to confront a rival that he's got a blood feud with.

Don't know how it'd help mechanically, but it'd follow RP guidelines.

Armond
2007-10-18, 06:45 PM
Dunno if it was mentioned, but evil paladins should heal undead by touch - it doesn't say so.

Also, Freedom has an extra sentence:
"The Paladin receives as a spell-like ability, usable a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier (with a caster level equal to his class level), the dispel magic spell. At fifth level, he may expend two uses to use freedom of movement. At tenth level, he may expend three uses to use break enchantment. At fifteenth level, he may expend four uses to use freedom. If a creature perishes while held by any form of this spell, the Paladin loses all aspects of this mantle."

Metamantal feats: Perhaps say sacrifice a prepared Paladin spell?

EDIT: My apologies, didn't notice the date...

Armond
2007-11-07, 01:49 AM
Just realized - this class can multiclass freely. Old paladin can't. Was that intentional?

fireinthedust
2007-11-07, 09:23 AM
I think the chaotic good paladin should have a sort of mercy kill mantle. In that they kill a creature that is suffering. Reason for that, is at least they follow up with being good. Because not all rebels have to be chaotic good. A good guy actually believes in what he's doing politically in the bigger picture, whereas another supposed rebel leader might be insighting violence in order to confront a rival that he's got a blood feud with.

Don't know how it'd help mechanically, but it'd follow RP guidelines.

Wait, so you're saying that Chaotic Good characters automatically believe in Euthanasia? Some might justify it, but I think a paladin mantle would have to be the essence (generally) of the alignment in DnD terms. Like, freedom from bonds, okay. Smiting evil, okay. healings spells, I get.
That and be something a champion of _____ would use in their task. "go ye, paladin, find sickly peasants and slay them rather than go about fighting dragons". Not very Paladiny.

also, why waste a class ability slot, feat or spell with it? Really, any character can already do that with a stick or board-with-a-nail. Also, I mean, what level mantle would you chuck so the Paladin could do this? The one where he turns hostile undead, or the one where he heals wounded allies? DnD would never need Euthanasia, thanks to healing spells, and it will never, ever come up in a normal dungeon.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-07, 11:21 AM
Just realized - this class can multiclass freely. Old paladin can't. Was that intentional?

Yes. Multiclassing restrictions are vile abominations unto the LORD.

*ahem*

I mean, yeah, they suck. Screw them.

Frosty
2008-09-27, 02:38 AM
Query: In the original post I did not see anything about the Paladin's caster level. I hope it's not something dumb like the old Paladin's 1/2 class levels.

Fax Celestis
2008-09-27, 03:46 AM
Query: In the original post I did not see anything about the Paladin's caster level. I hope it's not something dumb like the old Paladin's 1/2 class levels.

Caster level = paladin level.

Rockphed
2008-09-27, 05:17 AM
Honesty
The Paladin has foresworn lying, for any reason. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly makes a Bluff check for any reason other than to feint in combat, if he ever uses the Forgery skill, or if he ever lies.

The Paladin receives a sacred bonus to Sense Motive checks equal to 1/2 his class level (rounded up). In addition, once per day for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier, the Paladin can see invisibility (as the spell). At seventh level, this changes to invisibility purge. At fourteenth level, the Paladin can either perform an invisibility purge or can see as if affected by true seeing, and can use this ability twice per day.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who breaks the Honesty mantle can atone by declaring what he is and who he worships in the middle of a medium sized or larger city of an average alignment that he does not share.

I don't know if anybody already mentioned this, but this perfectly honest paladin will be unable to check if things are forged. Forgery is its own counter-skill, so if he ever checks if something is forged, he will lose the benefits of his honesty.

Otherwise, I love your redoing of the class. I think I will yoink it for Tears of Blood, though it will probably be mutilated by the time we get done with it:smallamused:

Frosty
2008-09-27, 02:40 PM
I just read over the Evil Mantles and...they really, really make it hard to play a paladin. A lot of it just feels contrived and not how I picture an evil paladin at all. Evil paladins will be losing their mantles left and right in most campaigns,and nobody would EVER have one in their adventuring party.

Fax Celestis
2008-09-27, 02:54 PM
I just read over the Evil Mantles and...they really, really make it hard to play a paladin. A lot of it just feels contrived and not how I picture an evil paladin at all. Evil paladins will be losing their mantles left and right in most campaigns,and nobody would EVER have one in their adventuring party.

Um, a Tyrant or Reaver is going to be an paragon of coercion, hatred, and dominance. Of course they're not going to play well with others. Honestly the Evil mantles are not so much intended to be used by PCs but instead by NPCs.

Furthermore, a Tyrant (LE) or Reaver (CE) will each still have a whole other suite of mantles to choose from (lawful and chaotic, respectively), which would make them more playable as a PC even if the intent is for them to not be PC-oriented.

Fundamentally, it comes down to this: evil people do not play well with others. Epitomizing evil should epitomize that concept.

Frosty
2008-10-20, 10:42 PM
Say, what is the Code of Conduct of a Paladin with no Mantles (such as a level 1 Paladin?) The standard paladin can't bluff. Can this new Paladin Bluff if Lawful Good? And if I don't take the appropriate Mantle, I can associate with evil creatures?

afroakuma
2008-10-20, 10:49 PM
That is some wacky thread necromancy there, Frosty.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-20, 11:43 PM
Say, what is the Code of Conduct of a Paladin with no Mantles (such as a level 1 Paladin?) The standard paladin can't bluff. Can this new Paladin Bluff if Lawful Good? And if I don't take the appropriate Mantle, I can associate with evil creatures?

L1 Paladins are "paladins in training" and therefore have no code of conduct. As for your other two questions, most certainly.

blackspeeker
2008-12-30, 12:36 AM
Something that has always bothered me, why is it that a paladin can't apply smite damage to ranged attacks. Is there a reason for this, is it dishonorable, it just always struck me as odd that it was only melee attacks that could do smiting damage.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-30, 01:23 PM
Something that has always bothered me, why is it that a paladin can't apply smite damage to ranged attacks. Is there a reason for this, is it dishonorable, it just always struck me as odd that it was only melee attacks that could do smiting damage.

It's a balance issue. Ranged smites make for some very powerful ranged damage, if applied properly.

fireinthedust
2008-12-30, 10:35 PM
I don't know: power attack for a fighter is pretty huge (barbarian, etc.). I had one guy with a spiked chain and a by-the-book rpga build take out a pile of fire giants and two dragons in one shot each.
His build idea is that at a certain level AC is insignificant, with str and magic and feats bonuses overcoming it; so the bonus to damage becomes the big factor. This is entirely melee/adjacent squares.

basically I don't see smite as a big issue by comparison, especially ranged: no power attack on top of the smite, as in melee. So the damage is negligible, and could only help a ranged character with needed bonuses.

Correct me if I'm wrong, please? (not an expert, just saying) :)

DoomHat
2009-01-28, 02:19 AM
Some dude totally just dared me to point out that the main problem with the Chaotic Mantels is that they seem to have been created as halfhearted juxtapositions of Lawful Mantels. CHAOS shouldn’t really be (or be able to be) contrasted to anything except maybe itself.
If you’re going to throw Entropy in there you should also have Propagation. You fall if you pass up the chance to aid the planting of seeds or breeding of creatures.
The fall condition for Bravado should be something along the lines of 'refusing an honorable challenge'.
As is, this just is paints chaos as little more then railing against authority.

Renegade Paladin
2009-01-28, 08:39 AM
The standard paladin can't bluff.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/incorrect4dr.jpg

In point of fact, the default paladin can bluff all he wants; he just can't lie. The two are very different things.

Kalir
2009-01-28, 01:56 PM
Yeah, I'm the guy who put DoomHat up to this.

I don't have a problem with the mechanical abilities for the mantles, although the flavor for some stacks up a bit, and some are just confusing.


Anarchy - Fine on it's own, not really necessary with Freedom/Liberty. If changed, replace with Irreverence: the paladin cannot show respect for people/events of great importance, and regains the mantle by openly reacting in the wrong way in a crowd when being told significant news (for example, laughing when informed of the noble king's death, or screaming in terror when his long-lost heir is found).
Bravado - Fine, although a bit confusing if compared to Triumph
Communion - Fine flavor-wise, but the description says the paladin can't summon their mount for thirty days if it dies, and also that they lose the mantle if the creature dies, but they need to resurrect it if the creature dies... what?
Discord - S'okay, but failure condition should be changed to match Bravado: i.e. fails a Bluff check
Entropy - Fine by me
Freedom - Fine on it's own, not really necessary with Anarchy/Liberty. If changed, replace with Wandering: the paladin can't spend more than a day in a settled area, and regains the mantle by traveling the world for a week.
Liberty - Fine on it's own, not really necessary with Anarchy/Freedom. If changed, replace with Personality: the paladin must convince at least two people a day of his or her brilliant plans/beliefs, and regains the mantle by starting a successful ruse to trick a crowd out of their gold (I'm thinking televangelist/pyramid scheme/traveling medicine show here).
Luck - Fine
Triumph - Fine, although a bit confusing if compared to Bravado
Vision - Like you said, not really chaos-themed at all. Change it to Skepticism: the paladin cannot believe the lies of others or fall into a trap, and regains it by successfully dispelling a widely-held but incorrect belief, or destroying the trap that caused them to break the mantle.


This is just a stab in the dark for how I'd fix the flavor of the chaotic mantles, but if you've got any ideas for anything else, it's your paladin fix, not mine.

Shades of Gray
2009-02-01, 01:33 AM
The Mantle of Abstinence:

It says that at level one, you are immune to nonmagical poisons. Can't you only take a mantle after level 2?

Belobog
2009-02-05, 03:50 AM
First of, excellent design here. The class is function and elegant and something I can tell I would enjoy playing, something I had given up on with 3.5 as it is. Being that Paladin is one of my favorite classes, though, I suppose I'm biased. :smallwink:

Second, the Purity Mantle seems weak in comparison to its siblings. Turning at level minus four wasn't a great feature then, and with all the new features, it looks even more so. Perhaps full turning would be more appropriate? I know that's stepping on the Cleric's toes, but in the case of Paladin mantles, Purity is optional, and it just doesn't seem as worth it as its brothers and sisters.

The spell levels bug me, but that's one of the mechanics of 3.5 that I never got, whether I looked at Ranger or Paladin or anything else without full casting; why don't you receive 5th level spells if you have half caster level? Wouldn't getting to level 18 (CL 9) put you into 5th level spells?

DrakebloodIV
2009-02-07, 01:16 AM
Congrats on another amazing homebrew, two nitpicks though...

One, Alliance and Communion should have (in my opinion) some form of scaling for level gain included and some way to relieve an aged or crippled mount from service.

Two, can the greed mantle still be used to buy an estate/ establish a kingdom/ be invested into something? It just seems a tad vague.

EDIT-Metamantle feat hypothetical question. If Eddie the Paladin has Wis 12 and a metamantle feat and is a high enough level to cast a level 5 spell (but his wis is too low) could he use that unexpended spell slot for a metamantle feat?

Highwarlord
2009-02-07, 01:53 AM
Without the "Skill Sets" variant, would this Paladin simply use the regular Paladin's skills?

Adumbration
2009-02-07, 06:07 AM
Just a little nitpick: the zero 0 level spells at the first levels are unnecessary, since a high ability score does not effect 0 level spells. Thus you can cast 0th level spells only at 3rd level and up, and so it is a bit misleading to leave a 0 there.

Indeed.
2009-03-10, 03:52 PM
For the Purity mantle, do you turn as a Cleric of four levels below your Paladin level or your character level?

On that matter-Why four as opposed to the PHB's three?

Navigator
2009-08-07, 11:39 AM
I really, really, really like this. This is the only Paladin variant I've ever seen that I've liked. The Mantles of Faith are constructed in such a way so that the class is easily extensible, which is easily its more important feature.

If you changed anything, I would reword some of the fluff to be a little less strict so it's easier to adapt to specific settings.

imp_fireball
2009-10-04, 05:08 AM
This is really good, but the only problem with this is that it kinda ties the paladin to serving a deity, which is hard for roleplaying.

I can imagine paladins as being a warrior that would be recruited for a crusade, evil ones especially, but specific mantles (while awesome) prevent an evil paladin from serving say, 99% of people that want to employ them and instead are basically directly answering to their deity.

What if it is a world where their are not that many deities or where deities don't influence the world at all? What if most of the conflict is caused by stubborn, human lords (which would make more sense, because if deities were causing all the problems, how could any one mortal genus survive for more then a thousand years?)?

I proposed a variant to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6150272) to allow for broader roleplaying with the paladin.

One of the paladins is the Zealot, which is basically what Fax has prescribed for the paladin, and the other is the Vessel, who essentially answers to mortal masters instead but still has a faith which may or may not come packaged with a deity that may or may not actually exist in the world.

The Vessel seems more plausible in a war torn racial conflict universe while the Zealot could apply to the black and white deity stand-off trope.

Just my two cents.


If you’re going to throw Entropy in there you should also have Propagation. You fall if you pass up the chance to aid the planting of seeds or breeding of creatures.

That's a good idea, though I don't know if it would ever so slightly transform the paladin into a micro druid (I stress micro) with what are likely nature spells (of course, the reference to creating life could be stressed and apply to divine goodness rather then neutral nature).

Also, lawful should get a neutering mantle (pet populations must be controlled! Or at least deny healing spells or whatever mechanically beyond the power to neuter animals - since like euthanasia, it can be done with a stick and a nail).

fireinthedust
2009-10-12, 11:53 PM
I was wondering: have you considered this class for Paizo? I hear they're doing a holy warrior varient, but this is a great 3e class and it'd be great to have it in print.


Has anyone tried playing it for you recently?

Myshlaevsky
2009-12-15, 07:19 PM
I recently had cause to look through the mantles and there was some discussion on the IRC concerning one or two.

Honor
The Paladin holds himself to honorable standards of combat set down by his god. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever feints, trips, or gains the benefits of flanking in combat.

The Paladin receives a sacred bonus to melee attack rolls equal to his Charisma modifier.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Honor mantle can atone by offering his services to a judge or similar ruling authority for a month.

As I'm reading it you can lose the mantle simply by the actions of other people - if another PC in the party moves into a flanking position. Can you choose not to gain the bonus and so not lose the mantle?

Temperance

A Paladin must display self-restraint in all their actions. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he attacks in the first round of combat.

The Paladin and all allies within 5' + 5'/2 Paladin levels receive a sacred bonus to ranged attack rolls equal to his Charisma modifier.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Temperance mantle can atone by not acting for ten rounds of combat.

It came up that missing the first-round attack in a system with relatively short combats is quite a penalty. I'm assuming combats in d20r are intended to be longer, but possibly this mantle could run off of the paladin choosing to act last in the combat instead? The atonement method is also pretty harsh.

Piety

A Paladin must pray to his deity, and those with the Piety Mantle of Faith must pray exceptionally. He holds himself to a standard where he must pray at least five times per day, for at least an hour per prayer session. He loses all aspects of his mantle if he goes one day without praying five times, with at least one hour of time between periods of prayer.

The Paladin receives an axiomatic bonus to all saving throws equal to 1/4 his class level. In addition, all allies within 5' + 5'/3 Paladin levels receive an axiomatic bonus to saving throws equal to the Paladin's Charisma modifier.

Atonement Method: In order to atone for violating a Piety mantle, a Paladin must spend a week in intense prayer, during which time they make take no other actions except what is needed to survive (eating, sleeping, breathing, etc.).

Praying for five hours a day, each an hour apart seems like something that's going to cause quite a bit of discord and be broken up fairly often in some D&D games.

Zeal

A Paladin must always accept an honorable challenge. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever does not accept an honorable challenge or if he smites a creature that is unaffected by the smite attack.

The Paladin gains +1d6 axiomatic damage when performing smite attacks. This improves to +2d6 at 5th level, +3d6 at 10th level, +4d6 at 15th level, and +5d6 at 20th level.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Zeal mantle can atone by challenging another warrior of at least equal power to them to a fair duel.

I don't like the idea of losing the mantle by smiting wrongly, but this one should be fairly easy to regain for a PC in a party. What about losing it if you smite a target which is the opposite to that of your intended smite attack?

Discretion
A Paladin must protect themselves and not rush into combat. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he takes damage in the first round of combat.

The Paladin and all allies within 5' + 5'/2 Paladin levels receive a profane bonus to ranged attack rolls equal to his Charisma modifier.

Atonement Method: A Paladin may atone for violating the Discretion mantle by not taking damage for 10 consecutive rounds of combat.

The same as goes for Temperance, really. I actually prefer this one but it seems as though whether you keep or lose this mantle is entirely out of your hands.

Survival

A Paladin's survival takes precedence over the survival of all others. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever aids an ally (whether through healing, beneficial spells, or the aid another action) when he himself is not at full hp.

The Paladin, and all allies within 30', gain a profane bonus to Reflex saves equal to 1/4 the Paladin's class level. At fifth level, the Paladin and all allies within 5' + 5'/3 class levels gain the benefits of Evasion while in light or no armor. At tenth level, the Paladin gains the benefits of Evasion in medium armor. At fifteenth level, the Paladin gains the benefits of Improved Evasion while in light or no armor. At twentieth level, the Paladin gains the benefits of Improved Evasion while in medium armor.

Atonement Method: A Paladin atones for violating the Survival mantle only when the ally they aided to break the mantle dies (the mantle is not broken again if the ally is resurrected in one way or another: the ally only need die, not stay dead).

No real issue with this one, but I think it'd be better if it was aiding an ally when the paladin is not at greater HP (whether a specific target like twice the HP or just greater). HP disparity produces a problem with this idea, though.

Discord
The Paladin is dedicated to sowing chaos and discord in his wake. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever tells the whole truth or rolls a natural 1 on a Bluff check.

The Paladin adds Bluff to his class skills and receives a sacred bonus to Bluff checks equal to 1/2 his class level (rounded up). In addition, the Paladin can spend 20 points of his Lay on Hands ability to inflict a confusion effect (as the spell) to a creature he touches.

Atonement Method: The Paladin must succeed on a Bluff check with a natural 20.

I would just remove the condition that you lose the mantle for rolling a natural 1 from this mantle. It seems fine without it.

Tavar
2009-12-15, 07:30 PM
As I'm reading it you can lose the mantle simply by the actions of other people - if another PC in the party moves into a flanking position. Can you choose not to gain the bonus and so not lose the mantle?

I believe the Knight class explicitly states you can choose not to gain the bonus. It would be a good idea to spell it out, though.

It came up that missing the first-round attack in a system with relatively short combats is quite a penalty. I'm assuming combats in d20r are intended to be longer, but possibly this mantle could run off of the paladin choosing to act last in the combat instead? The atonement method is also pretty harsh.

The same as goes for Temperance, really. I actually prefer this one but it seems as though whether you keep or lose this mantle is entirely out of your hands.

He's not missing the first full attack: he can't attack during the first round. Depending on the build, there's alot of things he could do, and if it's the surprise round, even better. Still, I agree that the mantle's weak compared to others. Perhaps giving a bonus to attack and damage?


Praying for five hours a day, each an hour apart seems like something that's going to cause quite a bit of discord and be broken up fairly often in some D&D games.

Yeah, this could probably be toned down.


No real issue with this one, but I think it'd be better if it was aiding an ally when the paladin is not at greater HP (whether a specific target like twice the HP or just greater). HP disparity produces a problem with this idea, though.
How about changing it to if he's at less than 3/4. Still pretty restrictive, but not stupidly so.


I would just remove the condition that you lose the mantle for rolling a natural 1 from this mantle. It seems fine without it.
Agreed.