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Tempestfury
2014-03-08, 12:21 PM
Vow of Poverty. One of the most renown feats in all of D&D I would say. Appearing in the Book of Exalted Deeds, it allows people to give up expensive items in exchange for numerous benefits in replace of these items.

Unfortunately, it's plagued with problems. The benefits you got are simply not as good as what you can get from spending cash, meaning that you were exchanging power for what was basically flavour, which was a no go. Secondly, it required the ĎSacred Vowí feat in the first place, which is very annoying, and stops you from getting VoP at first level without flaws or being human, as well as limiting your alignment to good.

Of course. This is where homebrew comes in. Drolytís Vow of Poverty fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428) is a very strong and well used upgrade in that it not just upgrades the current bonuses of the original Vow of Poverty, but gives important abilities like Flight, Freedom of Movement and True-Seeing which are pretty much essential at higher levels of play.

Vaynor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8708645&postcount=68) took it further, by giving it a level 21-30 progression and included abilities like Domains, Teleportation and even turning you into a Quasidiety at level 30. This was then taken even further by BelGarethís 31-40 progression (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232885), ending with you transforming into a Demigod. Overall, these fixes allow your character to remain strong throughout the levels, and have a good flavour to your character.

Recently, Iíve come across another Vow of Poverty fix that I rather like the mechanics of, because its quite different to the norm. qwertyu63ís fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289593#top) doesnít just give you a load of benefits, but instead gives you a set amount of points according to your ECL, and these points can then be spent to get different abilities. Points & abilities that can be changed on a day to day basis.

I like this fix, as it allows you to prioritize what is important to your character, or just leave out abilities you donít need. For example, if your an Warforged, you already have greater sustenance, that ability is pointless to you. Or if you're a Dragonfire Disciple with the Endure Exposure invocation (Which is probably like Natural Spell and the Druid), why would you need the Endure Elements ability?

However, the fix does have some flaws. Like the original Vow of Poverty, it limits you to the good alignment. Secondly, some of the cost of abilities are a bit off. Its more of an opinion, but 3 points for the ability to communicate to animals, and +4 to Survival and Handle Animal? Thereís a 1 point ability that gives you a +15 to Diplomacy and Bluff, as well as a Lantern Archon companion at the same level. Thirdly, there is simply no Epic progression. Yes you get more points per ECL, but the abilities donít scale past ECL 18.

I think most people should figure out whatís going on here. Iím going to attempt to create a fix that takes the both of best worlds. The upgrades, ability worth and epic progression of Drolytís fix, and the mechanics of qwertyu63ís fix. It will add more work/maths through.

Feedback would be greatly appreciated to help balance the abilities, as well as ideas for other abilities. After all, there is quite a large of variety of playstyles out there, so having a large variety of abilities allows people to get the best of of this feat for their playstyles, and make it worth the cost of having no magical items.

Vow of Poverty [General]
You have given up the pursuit of worldly goods, for personal, ascetic, or charitable reasons. In exchange you gain insight about the multiverse and access to your inner power.

Prerequisites:
You must give away all worldly goods save what is necessary for your survival and your trade.

Benefits:
Each day, you can meditate (which takes 1 minute), gaining a number of vow points equal to your ECL (any points left over from the previous day are lost). These points can be spent to obtain a number of effects, which are listed below. Buying an effect is a swift action. All effects bought are lost when you meditate to gain your vow points. (Each benefit can only be selected once per day.)

Additionally, at the first level you take this feat, and every 4 levels thereafter, you gain an additional bonus feat. You must meet all prerequisites for the feat. If your ECL is higher than 20, you can take Epic Feats with your bonus feats.

An extra bonus feat at first level might be a bit too much, but it seems fair play to me. You're giving up a feat in order to not to have items. A feat that those spending money will put to good use. The other bonus feats are a staple of the fixes, and have a nice even spread throughout the levels

Special: Due to the selective way this feat works. A DM should not hesitate to remove any abilities they dislike. With the point system, it is also possible for them to adjust the cost of points if they feel like they are over or under costed.


Effects:


Force Armour
Cost: 1 Vow Point
You gain a +4 armour bonus to your AC. If your ECL is 6 or more. This armour gains an enchantment bonus equal to (ECL-2)/4. This enchantment bonus is only to be used armour enchantments. If your ECL is 10 or higher, your armour bonus becomes equal to your ECL/2.

Taken from the latest post of Belgrath's thread. This Force Armour sacrifices AC - bringing it in line with Drolytís fix, though a bit weaker between levels 3-7 - in order to gain enchantment bonuses, similar to how Empowered strike gives an enchantment bonus to both A&D, and special abilities.

Deflection (Ex)
Cost: 1 Vow Point
You gain a +2 Deflection bonus to your AC. If your ECL is 6 or higher, you instead gain a Deflection bonus to your AC equal to your ECL/3

Same strength of both fixes from levels 1-7, but the smoother progression makes it stronger otherwise. Making it equal to (ECL/2)-1 at ECL 12 will give it the same strength as qwertyu63ís fix through

Resistance (Ex)
Cost: 1 Vow Point
You gain a +2 Resistance bonus to your saving throws. If your ECL is 6 or higher, you instead gain a Resistance bonus to your saving throws equal to your ECL/3

Pretty much the same as Deflection, the smoother progression makes it stronger at higher levels, but I can balance it out if need to be.

Empowered Strike (Su)
Cost: 1 Vow Point
You gain a +1 Enhancement bonus on all attack and damage rolls. In effect, any weapon you wield functions as a +1 magic weapon, and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were a magic weapon.

If your ECL is 7 or higher, you can an enhancement bonus equal to your (ECL-3)/4 that can be used to add weapon enhancements to the weapons you wield. This enhancement bonus may be used for any magical weapon ability, and can be reallocated when you gain a level.

If your ECL is 8 or higher, the enhancement bonus to attack and damage instead becomes equal to your ECL/4. If your ECL is 10 or higher, any weapon you wield is also considered to have your alignment, so for example if you were Lawful Good you would ignore damage reduction x/good and x/lawful.

This effect applies to unarmed strikes and natural weapons in addition to material weapons.

Whew! That was a wordy one... it basically takes Drolytís empowered strike, modifies it special ability to allow greater flexibility and to progress smoothly into epic levels, and then lets it apply to unarmed strikes and natural weapons as in qwertyu63ís fix... or at least, specify that it does.

Endure Elements (Ex)
Cost: 1 Vow Point.
You become immune to the effects of being in a hot or cold environment. You can exist comfortably in conditions between -50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit without having to make Fortitude saves (as described in the Dungeon Master's Guide). Additionally, you gain a resistance to fire and cold equal to your ECL. This resistance stacks with resistances from other sources of resistant gained from the Vow of Poverty Feat. If your resistance would equal 40 or more, you are instead considered immune.

Endure Elements. An ability that can be pretty damn useful, but at the same time, very easy to get. Not so good at high levels, so the scaling resistance is a little bonus. Of course, when combined with the Energy Resistance, you can easily get immunity to fire and cold... but thereís ways to get around even that at epic levels.

Sustenance (Ex)
Cost: 1 Vow Point.
You do not need to eat or drink. If you are at least ECL 6, you also do not need to sleep. If you are at least ECL 12, you also don't need to breathe. If you are at least ECL 18, you may, when buying this effect, revert in age to the beginning of the young adult age category. This is an actual drop in age, and removes all aging penalties/bonuses

Fortification (Ex)
Cost: 1 Vow Point.
When you are affected by a sneak attack or critical hit you have a 25% chance to negate the effect and take normal damage. If you are at least ECL 6 or higher, you instead get a 5% chance to negate the effect per ECL

Iím not sure if having things like 35% will annoy DMís, but its a best scaling of the ability that I can put in. Its stronger than Drolytís except level 19, but quite a bit weaker than qwertyu63ís where you get 50% at level 6. Compared to Drolytís 0% and this oneís 30%.

Silver Tongue (Ex)
Cost: 1 Vow Point
You gain a +3 untyped bonus to your Bluff, Diplomacy and Gather Information skill checks. You also get the ability to use Charm Person 1/hour. At ECL 8 or higher, the untyped bonus becomes equal to your ECL-4.

The first off qwertyu63ís unique abilities, trading the lantern archon for an extra skill and better scaling. I feel like I should add some style of scaling to the Charm ability through. Any suggestions?

Inner Light (Su)
Cost: 1 Vow Point
You eyes glow, creating a 20ft-cone of light. This light acts like any other natural light source, through it can be suppressed at will. At ECL 5 or higher, the size of the cone of light becomes 5ft per ECL. At ECL 6, you gain low-light vision up to twice your normal vision and dark vision up to 60ft. If you already had low-light vision or dark vision, you may instead double the amount. At ECL 12, you gain Blindsight at 5ft per ECL/2.

And the second of qwertyu63ís unique abilities. You donít have the darkness dispelling light beam at ECL 18, as the ability was getting quite worldly as it is, but in exchange, your light beam and blindsight scale per level. Plus, the low-light and dark vision stack with current low-light and dark vision you already have.

Shadow Steps (Su)
Cost: 1 Vow Point
You gain a +3 untyped bonus to your Hide and Move Silently skill checks. At ECL 6, you may exchange your bonus with Hide to use invisibility at will. At ECL 8, this bonus becomes equal to your ECL -4. At ECL 11, you may exchange your bonus with Hide to use Greater Invisibility at will. At ECL 16, you may exchange your bonus with Hide to use Superior Invisibility at will.

Say hello to my first unique ability! The first direct bonus scouts from Vow of Poverty. Granting them Hide and Move Silently, and then the invisibility chain, all the way up to Superior Invisibility. A rogue is meant to me good at sneaking after all, and if they canít use magical items to boost their sneaking ability, its fair that they have another way to do so, is it not?

Olympian Body (Ex)
Cost: 1 Vow Point.
You gain a +3 untyped bonus to Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim and Tumble. At ECL 6 you gain immunity to fatigue, At ECL 8 or higher, this bonus becomes equal to your ECL-4. At ECL 12, you gain immunity to exhaustion.

Become the ultimate athlete with the second of my unique abilities! I was originally going to have it split between Balance/Tumble and Climb/Jump/Swim, but didnít really think the latter was going to be worth that much, and couldnít think of anything else to add to the Balance/Tumble skills, so I combined them into this.

Skill Specilization (Ex)
Cost: 1 Vow Point.
Select one skill. You gain an untyped bonus in that skill eqaul to 2+your ECL. If you are at least ECL 6, this is increased to 4+your ECL. If you are at least ECL 12, the bonus is increased to 6+your ECL. If you are at least ECL 18, the bonus is increased to 8+your ECL. This skill bonus does not stack with any skill bonus grant by Vow of Poverty

Well, with all the abilities that increase skills, I decided that it was best to give you an option to give any skill a nice little boost. So, this guy turns up. Making sure it doesn't get carried away by not having it stack with other bonuses. But still, this should be a nice boost for those that want to speciilize in a skill.

Thick Skin (Ex)
Cost: 2 Vow Points
You gain Damage Reduction 5/Magic. At ECL 6, it becomes 5/magic and silver (if you are lawful), or 5/magic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 5/magic and adamantine (if you are neutral). At ECL 12, the Damage Reduction becomes equal to your ECL/2. At ECL 20, the DR/magic and x instead becomes DR/Epic and X

There we go. Gaining the extra material at level 6 is from qwertyu63, but having it based on alignment is from Drolyt. After that, the scaling DR keeps it inline with the power of Drolytís DR and keeps it scaling up. Admittedly, it will start to fall behind in epic levels... but Iíve got something special planned for that.

Energy Resistance (Ex)
Cost: 2 Vow Points
You gain resistance 5 against acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic energy. At ECL 6, this resistance instead becomes equal to your ECL. This resistance stacks with resistances from other sources of resistant gained from the Vow of Poverty Feat. If your resistance would equal 40 or more, you are instead considered immune

Ah, the first skill that comes for Drolytís fix. Tweaked so its a smoother progression across the levels. Yes, it does mean that at level 20, both this Endure Elements gives you immunity to fire and cold, but qwertyu63ís does so at level 18.

Spell Guard (Su)
Cost: 2 Vow Points.
You gain spell resistance 8+your ECL. If you are at least ECL 6, the SR is increased to 10+your ECL. If you are at least ECL 12, the SR is increased to 12+your ECL. If you are at least ECL 18, the SR is increased to 14+your ECL. The spell resistance gained from Vow of Poverty does not apply to spells with the [harmless] descriptor.

I wish there was a way to smooth out the progression, but ECLx2 gets too high at high levels (SR40 is pretty ridiculous, and thatís before Epic Levels.), and ECLx1.5 simply scales too slowly. Hell, even ECLx1.75 scales too slowly. Suggestions of how to smooth out the SR increases would be great.

Psionic Guard (Su)
Cost: 2 Vow Points.
You gain power resistance 8+your ECL. If you are at least ECL 6, the PR is increased to 10+your ECL. If you are at least ECL 12, the PR is increased to 12+your ECL. If you are at least ECL 18, the PR is increased to 14+your ECL. The power resistance gained from Vow of Poverty does not apply to powers with the [harmless] descriptor.

Hey, power resistance is pretty important to. If the game has full magic/psionic transparency, you can ignore this. If they donít through, well, having a way to gain PR could be pretty useful. It comes across as much rarer than spell resistance through, so maybe I should up it to 3 Points. Thoughts?

Inner Power (Ex)
Cost: 2 Vow Points.
You gain a +2 bonus to the ability score of your choice. At ECL 6, this bonus becomes equal to your ECL/2. At ECL 8, and every other 4 ECL afterwards, you can chose another ability score. It gains a bonus equal to your ECL/2 -2. Each iteration increases the penalty by another 2

So VoPís ability enchantments. Now scaling a bit more smoothly so you get odd bonuses as well as even The wording of the iterative ability bonuses should makes sense, as the previous bonuses didnít work well with the new scaling.

Mind's Peace (Su)
Cost: 2 Vow Points.
You gain immunity to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to discern your alignment. If you are at least ECL 6, you also receive the effect of a Protection from Evil spell, if you are Good, Protection from Good spell, if you are Evil, if you are Neutral, you chose between one of the two. If you are at least ECL 12, you gain the effect of a Nondetection spell. If you are at least ECL 18, you also receive the effect of a Mind Blank spell.

True Sight (Su)
Cost: 2 vow points.
You can, at will, use detect magic, as the spell. If you are at least ECL 6, you also can, at will, use a 'detect alignment', as the spell, you make one choice as to which alignment you can detect. If you are at least ECL 12, you also can, at will, use true seeing, as the spell. If you are at least ECL 18, you can create the effect of the spell Foresight once per day, targeting only you (CL of your ECL)

What can I say about these two? I canít exactly have a smooth progression for these abilities as thereís nothing to scale, and they give two very important abilities. Mind Blank and True Seeing. Might be a bit powerful through, to compare to Droylt, the Mind Blank is got at level 21 and True Seeing at level 18...

Sky's Call (Su)
Cost: 2 Vow Points.
You gain a fly speed of 10 feet per ECL (clumsy maneuverability). At ECL 5, and every other 5 ECL afterwards, your maneuverability increases by one step.

If there was one ability that Droyltís was MUCH stronger with without a doubt.. it would be flight. Yes, you only get it at level 6, but its already at average maneuverability and equal to your base speed, which got multiplied at each 6 levels. qwertyu63ís in comparison, only gave you 10ft per 6 levels, through at level 12, it does equal its maneuverability.
This is a happy medium. The speed scales linearly, and the maneuverability goes up in even steps. Through the maneuverability scales to good and perfect the slowest of all the fixes (15/20 compared to the others 12/15)

Soul's Voice (Su)
Cost: 2 Vow Points.
You can make knowledge checks untrained, regardless of the DC. You gain a +2 untyped bonus on all knowledge checks. At ECL 5 and every next 5 ECL, you can speak the basics of another language. At ECL 9 or higher, the bonus to your knowledge checks becomes equal to your ECL/3

Another of qwertyu63ís unique abilities. Basically it allows you to become a miniature loremaster, through I exchanged the augury and Commune for a scaling knowledge bonus and extra languages. Just felt like it has better flavour & synergy this way.

Nature Tuned (Su)
Cost: 2 Vow Points.
You gain a +4 bonus on all Survival and Handle Animal checks. If you are at least ECL 6, you can also speak with animals at will. If you are at least ECL 10, the bonus becomes equal to your ECL/2

First of qwertyu63ís abilities to get a point downgrade... an technically a nerf in that you canít summon animals with it. But seriously. Its ECL 18 ability is to summon a common cat, rat or bat, for one minute? And its not even a familiar or anything... so... excuse me for thinking that its kinda... lame.

Total Control (Ex)
Cost: 2 Vow Points.
You gain immunity to fear effects, along with attempts to stun you. If you are at least ECL 6, you also are immune to attempts to grapple you. If you are at least ECL 12, you also are immune to attempts to daze you. If you are at least ECL 18, you are considered to under the effects of ĎFreedom of Movementí at all times.

Second of qwertyu63ís abilities to get a point downgrade, an upgrade tree up to Freedom of Movement at ECL 18. Which you get at ECL 14 for Drolytís VoP fix. So I felt that having it a 2 Vow Points instead of 3 Vow Points was fair.

Natural Rejuvenation (Ex)
Cost: 3 Vow Points
You gain Fast Healing 1. At ECL 8 or higher, your fast healing instead becomes equal to your ECL/4. This Fast Healing stacks with one other instance of fast healing or regeneration you might have.

Starting off the three pointers with the last of my unique abilities! Fast Healing, a pretty useful ability that allows you to fight for longer, can pick you up from unconsciousness, and saves healing outside of fights. Yet, its never appeared in Vow of Poverty, even though you get a large array of other fighting abilities. So... here it is. Not much, but its there... and most importantly, it stacks, so you're always getting its benefit! After all, an extra Fast Healing 5 at level 20 wonít hurt.

Hands of Life (Su)
Cost: 3 Vow Points.
You can heal wounds (yours or those of others) by touch. You can heal a total of 10 hit points of damage per day. At ECL 6, this number instead becomes equal to your ECLx(1+ECL/5). Additionally, you can choose to spend 5 points out of this pool to cure a disease or neutralize a poison. If you are at least ECL 12, you can choose to spend 3 points out of this pool to cure a disease or neutralize a poison or to spend 5 to cure blindness/deafness. If you are at least ECL 18, you can choose to spend 1 points out of this pool to cure a disease or neutralize a poison, spend 3 to cure blindness/deafness or spend 5 to restore a missing limb.

Basically, this is Lay On Hands/Touch of Vitality. It shouldnít be more powerful than those actual features through. At end levels, its got a bigger pool compared to qwertyu63ís quite a bit... honestly, Iím wondering if I was scaling it wrong through, and made it simply too big... would it be better to scale it by say... 5 points of healing per ECL? Bigger healing at early levels, but smaller at higher levels.

Shifting Position (Su)
Cost: 3 Vow Points.
You benefit from a 20% miss chance due to your constant movement. If you are at least ECL 6, you can also dimension door 15' once per hour. If you are at least ECL 12, the miss chance increases to 10% per ECL/3. If you are at least ECL 18, you can create the effect of the spell Wind Walk once per day, targeting only you (CL of your ECL)

A little unsure about this one, as I would like to adjust the dimension door and Wind Walking abilities... the scaling miss chance might seem a little broken, giving you a 60% miss chance at level 18, and a 100% miss chance at level 30... but at those levels, thereís abilities to ignore miss chances that arenít from total concealment, and through these miss chances are higher, they donít count as total concealment. If its still too powerful though, Iíll change it to a flat 40%

Special: (Restriction)
You may only own what you can carry, and only what is necessary to your survival (including clothing, food, and shelter), or to your trade. For example, a fighter may own a weapon, a thief thieves' tools, a wizard a spellbook, or a bard an instrument. At any rate you can never own more than 100 GP worth of items, and none of your possessions can be masterwork or magical in nature. If you are good aligned then any surplus wealth must be donated to the poor, if you are evil aligned you must destroy it in a sacrifice to a dark god or archfiend, and if you are neutral you may choose either option. If you gain a reward, such as treasure, while working/adventuring alone or in a party, you must donate/destroy your share of the reward as soon as is reasonable or lose all benefits of this feat until you do. If you use any masterwork or magical items then you lose the benefits of this feat until you make an atonement, though you can have others use magic items to your benefit without losing the benefits of this feat.

Special:(Spellbook)
A member of a class that requires a spellbook, who takes this feat may give up her scribe scroll and summon familiar class abilities or an equivalent according to the DM in order to forgo the use of a spellbook. All her spells are instead stored within her own mind. She must learn spells normally, and may not pay for the privilege of scribing new spells, but now learns a greater number of free spells per level, and all the spells she knew when she takes this feat remain among her spells known. If she takes this feat at first level she knows 6 + Int modifier spells at first level. Moreover the class gains 4 spells at each new class level rather than 2, starting with the level she takes this feat.

Tempestfury
2014-03-08, 12:22 PM
Special: Epic Progression

When your ECL is 21 or more, your connection to the universe and the power residing within has reached new heights, allowing you to unlock abilities that stretch beyond mortal power, setting you onto the path of the divine.

Whenever you meditate to gain vow points, you also get a number of divine vow points equal to your ECL-20. These points can be spent as vow points, with an exchange of one divine vow point being worth three vow points. Or, they can be spent on the following abilities.

Right, Epic Progression. Being as this is an entirely different section, I feel that this should be up to the DM to allow or not if they think that the normal progression is powerful enough, even in epic levels.


Divine Weapon (Ex)
Cost: 1 Divine Vow Point
Choose one attribute. Your attack and damage rolls gain a bonus equal to that attribute modifier. If you already add that attribute modifier to attack rolls though racial ability or class feature, you only add the bonus to damage rolls, and vice versa.

Simple, but powerful. Giving you quite a boost to attack and damage rolls. As I don't want people to simply stack the same attribute over and over again (which is not what its designed to do), if you can already use the attribute, then you can't use it again with this ability. It doesn't apply for feats like Weapon Finesee though, as I'm not that mean.

Divine Shield (Ex)
Cost: 1 Divine Vow Point.
Choose one attribute. You gain a bonus to your AC equal to that attribute modifier. You cannot select the attribute if you already add that attribute modifier to AC rolls though racial ability or class feature, you

Divine Soul (Ex)
Cost: 1 Divine Vow Point.
Choose one attribute. You gain a bonus to your saves equal to that attribute modifier. You cannot select the attribute if you already add that attribute modifier to save rolls though racial ability or class feature, you

What can I say about these? Yeah, there not very exciting, but pretty usefull, especially as they stack with other sources, but not 100%. It doesn't let a monk add their Wisdom to AC twice, or a Paladin add their Cha to saves twice, but it would allow a monk to add their wisdom to saves, and a Paladin to add their Cha to armour. This is a great way to reduce MAD in classes

Divine Domain (Su)
Cost: 1 Divine Vow Point
Select one domain, one for each each spell level. These SLA's are usable 1/day. You also gain the domain ability if it applies to your classes. At ECL 26, and every 5 ECL after, you may select another domain, or lose access to your previous domain and gain a planar domain (A Planar domain is basically 2 domains). You must meet all prerequisites for planar domains. You can only have a maximum of 4 different domains, 2 different domains and one Planar Domain, or two planar domains. You may choose the same domain twice, gaining each SLA twice instead of just once. However, you do not gain the effects of the domain ability twice.

Use your highest ability score to determine pertinent information such as Difficulty Class. Your caster level for these SLA's is equal to your ECL. If the character already has access to domains from a class, then the spells from the domains selected are considered domain spells for that class only. For example, a level 23 cleric with the Law and Healing domains that selected Sun as their level 23 domain could prepare any spell from the Sun domain in their domain spell slots, as well as any spell from the Law and Healing domains as normal.

Whew... wordy, but then again so was the originally ability. This comes from Vaynor's epic progression, with important changes. For example, it scales at every 5 ECL, instead of every 3, but isnít capped at ECL 29. Youíre only allowed a limited amount of domains through, so you canít go and collect every single domain.

Shift through the Void (Su)
Cost: 1 Divine Vow Point.
You gain the ability to teleport at will. By concentrating for one minute, you may teleport as the spell greater teleport. This ability only affects you. At ECL 24 and every next 3 ECL, You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature or its equivalent, as like the spell greater teleport. At ECL 27. By concentrating for five minutes, you may may shift planes as the spell plane shift. This ability affects only you. At ECL 31, and every next 4 ECL, you may bring along one other willing creature holding hands, up to a maximum of 8, as like the spell plane shift.

Another of Vaynorís abilities, but greatly modified, as originally it simply allowed you to teleport, and then planeshift, this however lets you take others with you at higher ECL. BelGarethís 31+ progression also allows you to use greater plane shift, and Iíll put that in if its requested, but the ability was already getting rather wordy.

Energy Immunity (Ex)
Cost: 2 Divine Vow Points.
Choose one energy type (Fire, Cold, Electricity, Ice, Sonic and Force). You are now immune to that energy type. At ECL 26 and every next 5 ECL, you may select a different energy type, and become immune to that type as well.

The first of the level 2 abilities. Again, take primarily from Vaynor, and BelGarethís progression noted. Of course, this does give you two energy immunities instead of one by ECL 30, and by ECL 46, youíll have immunities to all energy types... but when at those levels, you start getting quite a lot of piercing effects, so I donít think it should be too troubling.

Regeneration (Ex)
Cost: 2 Divine Vow Points.
You gain Regeneration 1. This allows you to heal 1 point of damage per round and all damage dealt to you is converted to non lethal damage. Your regeneration can be overcome by Good aligned weapons and spells (if Evil), Evil aligned Weapons and spells (if Good), Chaotic aligned weapons and spells (if Lawful), Lawful aligned weapons and spells (if Chaotic), or 1 energy type (pick either Electricity, Acid, Fire or Cold, this cannot be an energy you are immune to) weapons and spells (if you are Neutral). If your alignment has multiple components, pick one. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.

At ECL 24 and every next 3 ECL, your Regeneration increases by 1.

Now. This ability comes straight from BelGarthís progression, through tweaked to give a smoother progression. BelGarth gives you Regeneration 5 at level 33, this lets you take Regeneration 1 at level 22, it gives you the same amount of regeneration at level 33, but then progresses at a much slower rate.

Ghost of Shadows (Su)
Cost: 2 Divine Vow Points
You gain the ability to cast Superior Invisibility at-will. Additionally, whenever you are invisible, you can become incorporeal at-will. While incorporeal because of this ability, you can become corporal at-will. Finally, being under the effect of Ďtrue sightí no longer piece through your invisibility automatically, and instead have to make a spot check with +20 bonus in opposition to your hide check. At ECL 23 and every 2 ECL afterwards, this bonus decreases by 1.

The ultimate scouting ability, at-will superior invisibility at incorporeal-bility. But most importantly, true-sight is no longer an auto-see for you. It does give people a higher chance to spot you of course, but you can hide from them, and as the levels progress, it just gets easier to hide from them...

Scales of the Dragon (Ex)
Cost: 2 Divine Vow Points
You gain DR/- equal to your ECL-20. Additionally, you get an untyped bonus to your natural armour equal your ECL-15. The DR/- from this ability, stacks with DR from any other source. So if you had DR 2/- from this ability, and DR 11/Epic and Silver from another ability, you would have DR 13/Epic and Silver, and DR 2/-.

Remember how I said I would help balance out the DR from Thick Skin in Epic levels? This is how. Stackable DR/-. In fact, it actually makes it stronger, as at level 25, you would have DR 20/Epic and X, and DR 5/- instead of DR 15/Epic and X. So perhaps it might be too strong as it is, and making it non-stackable should help balance it out.

Divine Speed
Cost: 2 Divine Vow Points
All forms of travel that you have increase by 1/4 your ECLx5ft. In addition, you may take an extra swift action per turn. At ECL 25, and every 3 ECL afterwards, you may take an extra swift action per round. You can sacrifice 3 swift actions to take an extra move action, or 5 swift actions to take an extra standard action.

So, speed and actions are always important in combat, so this is where Divine Speed comes in handy. Very, very handy. Not only does it make it much easier for you to move around the battlefield, but as your levels climb, you'll start getting more and more actions per turn.

Enlightenment
Cost: 5 Divine Vow Points.
Restriction: Level 30.
You have achieved the pinnacle of your spiritual enlightenment. At level 30, you become a quasi-deity, granting divine rank 0. You are immortal, and no longer can die from old age. Additionally, you no longer suffer aging penalties (any previously incurred penalties are still in effect) but still gain the benefits of aging. You gain benefits of being a quasi-deity with divine rank 0, including and limited to the following: all future hit die are maximized, your base land speed increases to 60 ft., a deflection bonus to your AC equal to your Charisma modifier, immunity to transmutation, immunity to energy drain, ability damage, and ability drain. You are not able to grant spells.

At ECL 40 and every next 10 ECL your Divine rank increases by 1, with all the benefits according a deity of Divine rank 1. For more information, see Deities and Demigods page 29, or the Divine Ranks SRD

The cornerstone of the epic VoPís is this. Becoming divine. This ability is so strong, and so powerful, that even giving it a hefty cost of 5 Divine Vow Points wasnít enough, so I restricted it to Level 30 to get. Maybe Iím being overboard with it, but until feedback says otherwise... Iím not taking any chances.

Tempestfury
2014-03-08, 12:24 PM
Workshop

Where in progress abilities come to be refined before being added to the list of abilities! They even come in two flavours. Reworks, and entirely new abilities


Reworks


New Ideas

Cohort
Cost: 3 Vow Point
Restriction: ECL 6.
You gain a cohort, as if you had taken the Leadership Feat, the Cohort gained from this ability must also take a Vow of Poverty. However, you do not gain any followers. You do not gain a second cohort if you already have Leadership, but you gain +2 bonus to your Leadership score for attracting a cohort and the amount of levels bellow you your cohort must be is decreased by 1.
Special: Unlike other Vow of Poverty abilities, you cannot swap this ability out each day. Instead, once you have taken it, you cannot remove it until you no longer have your cohort, whenever they left your service, death, or other means.

Having a Cohort is pretty damn awesome. But it also comes with followers, which can be annoying. So I made this. As well as giving it a bonus to getting a cohort if you had leadership. However, as this is a VoP ability, I restricted the cohort to have VoP as well. Just doesn't make sense that this feat gives you a cohort that has cash

Spell Insight (Su)
Cost: 3 Vow Points
Choose level 1 spell. You can now use it as a spell-like ability 3/day. AT ECL4, and ever 3 ECL afterwards. You can select a new spell to become a spell-like ability, this spell can be one level higher than the previous spell chosen with this ability. In addition, your previous spell-like ability becomes at will.

Another idea taken from Belgarth's most recent post, through modified so that the progression is a bit smoother. A bit more powerful in that at level 20, you should have a level 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5 spell at-will, compared to his 3 1-3 level spells at-will.


Earth and Sea
Cost: 2 Vow Point
You gain a burrow speed and a swim speed of 10ft per ECL.

Again, taken from Belgarth. Just burrow or just swim alone seemed a little lame compared to flight, so I combined the two. Still leaves it as the small ability through, so I would love to have a way to add more to it.

Divine Teaching
Cost: 2 Divine Vow Points
Chose a class that uses an attribute for one or more class features. Change that attribute to one of your choice.

A powerful ability this, allowing you to reduce MAD greatly, and makes synergy between classes even stronger. Or the synergy in one class even stronger. Does a class you like, use strength and wisdom? This lets you change it so its all strength or all wisdom based.

ngilop
2014-03-08, 03:45 PM
Have you looked at Kenneth's Vow of Poverty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12433473&postcount=15)?

I think its the best VoP version ive ever came across, no disrepect to the others.

Tempestfury
2014-03-08, 04:09 PM
Have you looked at Kenneth's Vow of Poverty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12433473&postcount=15)?

I think its the best VoP version ive ever came across, no disrepect to the others.

No. I had not seen it before.

Its... interesting. Chastising Strike is a pretty interesting ability, through I'm not sure if its needed with Empowering Strike...

Regeneration at level 17 and the DR/- is a bit too powerful for my liking. That said, the Inviolate Body and Flash abilities aren't too bad... hmmm...

Tempestfury
2014-03-13, 06:25 PM
I have updated all the abilities so that they are established whenever or not they are Extrodrinary or Supernatural, as well as turned the third post into a Workshop.

Please, feel free to leave feedback!

Overneath
2014-04-13, 11:54 PM
There are enough options here to make an entire base class out of it. Which...is the point of most Vows, or so I've been led to believe. It reminds me of Forsaker, but more powerful, and rightfully so, as you're restricted by any gear instead of just magic items. This also makes spellcasters painful, though, as any magical gear they purchase tends to be for flash instead of function anyway. None of them bend the universe naked, but they can all do it. I will say this for you, however: You scaled the features quite well. And I have a soft spot for point systems, so seeing this instead of an overlapping ECL chart is refreshing to me, as a character has more room to choose what they wish.

Spell Insight from the Workshop doesn't make sense to me though. Not the concept, but the wording. Thoughts says you should have a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spell as spell-likes by 20th level, but your progression only allows for 1st level spells, the way it's written.

Tempestfury
2014-04-14, 08:04 AM
I'm glad you like it, indeed I specifically took inspiration from a point-buy system because I liked the flexibility it granted to players. Not only that, but I think that such a powerful gift from within would be flexible, as you should be able to choose how it manifests

Thanks for pointing out how the Spell Insight ability is worded incorrectly. I've edited it so that now it makes sense as to what exactly it means and how the abilities scale

Time Blossom
2014-05-15, 08:46 AM
I like it. :)

I would suggest swapping out True Sight's "detect evil" for "any single detect alignment spell," though, as this remix isn't restricted to good characters and your personal quest might benefit more from detecting things other than evil. I could see a Paladin of Tyranny wanting to detect chaos, for instance.

Also, how does the cohort option work? Are you prohibited from swapping that one out until your current cohort dies or leaves your service? Hot-swappable NPCs is a real game slower.

Tempestfury
2014-05-15, 08:48 AM
I like it. :)

Heh, thanks!


I would suggest swapping out True Sight's "detect evil" for "any single detect alignment spell," though, as this remix isn't restricted to good characters and your personal quest might benefit more from detecting things other than evil. I could see a Paladin of Tyranny wanting to detect chaos, for instance.

That makes sense. Editing...


Also, how does the cohort option work? Are you prohibited from swapping that one out until your current cohort dies or leaves your service? Hot-swappable NPCs is a real game slower.

That's... actually a good point. I'll say you can't drop that ability until you lose the Cohort gained via it.

Inevitability
2014-05-18, 06:38 AM
I like this a lot! The point buy mechanic is interesting, the abilities make it actually possible to play a VoP character, and the abilities scale most of the time very well.

Just a note, I think the DR of Scales of the Dragon is a bit to low. Although the other parts of it may make up for it, so decide for yourself.

And I think that the divine ranks that can be gained through Enlightenment should be limited. Make it cap at 2 or 3 ranks or something like that.

Tempestfury
2014-05-18, 07:06 AM
Well, Enlightenment is limited to level 30 and you only get a rank per 4 levels... so you need to be at level 50 in order to get rank 4... so... I don't think that will be problematic.

Anyway, what do you think of the abilities in the workshop? Should I implement them in? What about the Force Armour, which one do you prefer?

Inevitability
2014-05-18, 07:51 AM
I like the second Force armor the most. Having a nice enchantment on your armor is more interesting than having slightly more AC.

Tempestfury
2014-05-18, 08:10 AM
Yeah, I think its the better of the two as well.

What about the other ones in the Workshop? Spell Insight, Earth and Sea, Divine Teaching and the Cohort? I'm thinking that Cohort and Spell Insight should be raised to 3 Vow Points.

Inevitability
2014-05-18, 10:40 AM
Spell insight might have to be removed entirely. It eventually allows you to cast permanency at-will, without any XP costs. Firstly, that'll mean that everyone starts getting huge amounts of permanent buffs, and second, some PC's may use it to get around the cost for making someone cast a spell on you.

Tempestfury
2014-05-18, 10:54 AM
Spell insight might have to be removed entirely. It eventually allows you to cast permanency at-will, without any XP costs. Firstly, that'll mean that everyone starts getting huge amounts of permanent buffs, and second, some PC's may use it to get around the cost for making someone cast a spell on you.

That's no more than what BelGareth's 1-100 allows you to do. Admittedly you have to be level 29 to use it at will instead of 3/day, but honestly? Permanency as an at-will without the exp cost? I don't think its going to break the game. I mean, the only spells you can make permanent are Arcane sight, Comprehend languages, Darkvision, Detect magic, Read magic, See invisibility, Tongues, Enlarge person, Magic fang, Magic fang, greater, Reduce person, Resistance and Telepathic bond.

Those are hardly broke abilities, and Vow of Poverty covers most of them anyway, for even less points.

Inevitability
2014-05-18, 11:02 AM
Yeah, I've played in a few campaigns where the DM allowed more spells to be permanency'ed, and I forgot the rules don't talk about that. My bad. So well, I think it is now an acceptable ability, although it still gives a handful of buffs to you and your party for free if you're willing to spend one day on it.

Tempestfury
2014-05-18, 11:06 AM
Its not like those buffs are the end of the world... and I can always add it that the spells allowed are up to the DM's decision in the thoughts.

Inevitability
2014-05-18, 12:39 PM
Seems safe enough to me.

Hanuman
2014-05-20, 03:31 AM
Did someone say Remix?

My impression of VoP was that if you gave away your items that your god would make it so you didn't have to have them to survive in a world of heroes decorated with magic items like christmas trees.

A point system in this case would be just an abstraction from the player's wealth curve.

To make a good VoP (which Xefas' Teramach class kind of does right with it's item destruction system), requires a balance of gold equivalent to benefit, but thematically it assumes the player is doing it in a karmatic sense, so the design philosophy implies that a VoP system should be run by both the DM and the player in different roles and the vow itself is both a contextually divine and a metagame social agreement between the character/god and player/DM respectively.

This point system is not meant to be a class feature system, nor is it meant to be highly adaptable.

I would suggest timing the VoP system with opportunities for the players to trade freely, such as major temples at large cities and such. That way the user can made adaptions when they could normally be trading their wares.

The abstraction could be 1VP for every 100g, and you could open the system up (with a few rules) to purchase any magic item effect they wish. This might be better using essentia rules, and who knows? You do! :smallsmile:

Tempestfury
2014-05-20, 09:31 AM
... That would be overly complicated and difficult to handle.

Having the bonuses scale directly by level, even if there is a point-buy system to allow flexibility in the choices, is much easier to implement and is something much easier for DM's and players to accept and understand, especially as there is already a baseline comparison for the Vow of Poverty with the WBL.

Hanuman
2014-05-20, 03:37 PM
Perhaps, but the accumulation of bonus equivalent from items are not a flat progression inherently. Just voicing my thoughts on how items and wealth works despite what role that plays in this system.

Deepbluediver
2014-05-20, 04:25 PM
Your ideas look interesting, but since you mentioned a couple of other attempts to remake Vow of Poverty in the intro, I would like to bring up the conclusion that I reached when I took a look at the same material.

VoP, IMO, is just to involved to be a single Feat. However, adding in abilities one at a time (in exchange, perhaps, for various amounts of wealth, perhaps) doesn't really seem like it would work out well either. So why not try turning the VoP-ideas into a class all of their own? Specifically, a PrC, most likely.

The "Vow of Poverty" could be a level-1 class feature, much like a Paladin's oath, and by being a class you've got tons more room for the progression and choice of various abilities across several levels, as well as the ability to add flavor or modify the prerequisites as needed.
Because honestly, that's really what it seems like the effective (in terms of the power/wealth-tradeoff) fixes do: they add tons of spell-like abilities and/or combat bonuses, just like a class would.

ben-zayb
2014-05-20, 06:17 PM
I really dig this VoP. Needs a bit of decision making compared to automatic bonus by previous fixes and the original, but that gives the player better flexibility too. I especially like the addition of armor special abilities. Just a few suggestions:

Force Armor being able to take shield special abilities. And I'm not sure how to balance it, but how about being able to add fixed-cost enchantments like Shadow Moves, Slick, etc?


Empowered Strike: not needed, but a capstone (ecl 20) ability of bypassing DR/-, or Adamantine so we don't need to purchase the Transmuting ability almost every time. Alternatively, DR stuff could be a separate effect from Empowered Strike.

Fortification: go back to increments of 25% at levels (1,6,11,16) because 100% at ecl 20 is late compared to non-VoP

EDIT: Oh, and I thought the wording of inner power could be better phrased like "decreases the bonus" than "increases the penalty" just to make it consistent.


The rest seems to be balanced, given you're still limited to vow points anyway. Spell insight can have problems with Planar Binding or Celerity depending on the game's power level, but otherwise I dig it.

Tempestfury
2014-05-20, 06:35 PM
So why not try turning the VoP-ideas into a class all of their own? Specifically, a PrC, most likely.

Because VoP is a feat and my inspiration is from other feats?


The "Vow of Poverty" could be a level-1 class feature, much like a Paladin's oath, and by being a class you've got tons more room for the progression and choice of various abilities across several levels, as well as the ability to add flavor or modify the prerequisites as needed.
Because honestly, that's really what it seems like the effective (in terms of the power/wealth-tradeoff) fixes do: they add tons of spell-like abilities and/or combat bonuses, just like a class would.

Their nothing new and exciting though, nothing worth making it an actual class, with new, personal class features. Someone once made a VoP/Monk class somewhere, but I don't remember its name.

Though... I think I might have a new idea for a class....


I really dig this VoP. Needs a bit of decision making compared to automatic bonus by previous fixes and the original, but that gives the player better flexibility too. I especially like the addition of armor special abilities.

Thank you, I'm glad you like it!


Force Armor being able to take shield special abilities. And I'm not sure how to balance it, but how about being able to add fixed-cost enchantments like Shadow Moves, Slick, etc?

Maybe I could give you the option to have a shield if your hand is free, or more likely enhance a shield if you are holding one, like Empowered Strike. Shields are completely skipped out so it is a good point you made....

Fixed-Cost is just something your sacrificing here.


Empowered Strike: not needed, but a capstone (ecl 20) ability of bypassing DR/-, or Adamantine so we don't need to purchase the Transmuting ability almost every time. Alternatively, DR stuff could be a separate effect from Empowered Strike.

Bypassing immunity could actually be a new Epic ability, as the ones I have so far aren't all that diverse or imaginative actually...


Oh, and I thought the wording of inner power could be better phrased like "decreases the bonus" than "increases the penalty" just to make it consistent.

I'll look it over.

Deepbluediver
2014-05-20, 08:12 PM
Because VoP is a feat and my inspiration is from other feats?
Ok, yeah, but I think a big part of the of why the original version didn't work is because this concept is just to complex to work as a single feat. It's longer than any 3 other feats I can think of combined, which immediately triggers warning bells in terms or workable and balance, IMO.


There's nothing new and exciting though, nothing worth making it an actual class, with new, personal class features. Someone once made a VoP/Monk class somewhere, but I don't remember its name.
It seems to me like part of what people are trying to cram into VoP if stuff that classes that take it wouldn't get normally; as if they are trying to fix a whole host of issues from the back end. Part of the reason that I suggested taking the concept and remaking it as some new PrC is that it gives you more opportunity to add things that ARE unique and interesting.

Alternatively, maybe this just isn't really workable as a major in-game feature. From a flavor perspective, I would think that a character who was trying to play that game as if they where giving up something, as if they where really sacrificing, would actually have to GIVE IT UP. When you jam to many options and new abilities onto VoP, it turns into "I want to play a character who gives up all worldly possessions without actually giving up a single ounce of power that my character would have." That doesn't exactly come across as an interesting or viable idea to me.

Tempestfury
2014-05-20, 09:10 PM
The main reason the original VoP is unpopular is because it makes you take another feat before it, limits you to take other exalted feats, which quite frankly, are not that good, and it simple wasn't worth it.

As for giving up things? Yes, you are still giving up things to take VoP. A great example is the comparison between a wizard and a sorcerer. A sorcerer gets more spells per level, and can cast all spells they known whenever they want to. A wizard can cast less spells per level and has to prepare their spells each day, but can learn every single spell in existence and know more spells, and its because of this that they are the stronger class, if harder to play.

Its similar between normal WBL and VoP. VoP grants you strong abilities that directly scale with your level, and require little to no complication. However, WBL has much greater flexibility that what VoP can provide, and can be tailored directly to your character's needs and build, therefore it is stronger than VoP, though harder to play.

Hanuman
2014-05-21, 02:15 AM
Here I thought VoP was unpopular because DMs outright ban it's use.

ben-zayb
2014-05-31, 10:05 PM
So... your turn for the PEACH exchange, right?

Tempestfury
2014-06-01, 03:18 AM
So... your turn for the PEACH exchange, right?

Yeah sure, I'll get right on it.

andreichekov
2014-06-01, 01:14 PM
Divine Weapon (Ex)
Cost: 1 Divine Vow Point
Choose one attribute. Your attack and damage rolls gain a bonus equal to half that attribute modifier.

Spoiler: Thoughts
Hide
Simple, but powerful. Giving you quite a boost to attack and damage rolls. Originally I made it so that you gain a full bonus equal to the ability modifier, but I thought that might be getting a bit too powerful. Not to sure on the name through.


Divine Shield (Ex)
Cost: 1 Divine Vow Point.
Choose one attribute. You gain a bonus to your AC equal to half that attribute modifier.

Divine Soul (Ex)
Cost: 1 Divine Vow Point.
Choose one attribute. You gain a bonus to your saves equal to half that attribute modifier.

Spoiler: Thoughts
Hide
What can I say about these? Yeah, there not very exciting, but they are pretty powerful, especially as they stack with other sources. Allowing for some degree of attribute stacking, through personally I prefer to think of them as simply being a way to reduce a classesí MAD. Through that requires a character to be created at epic level.

You are talking about attribute stacking as if it is impressive, at level 20+?
If stacking your attributes like this actually matters, then you have a class that could use the boost, and if it doesn't, it is because you are a wizard who doesn't need these bonuses anyway. This just rewards one stat classes more, because they might actually have a stat that is high enough to matter in this situation. If you are worried about how high the numbers are going, just make it a flat number. Or maybe a scale with level number. Like, + class level to attack rolls. (which is totally acceptable in this crazy land of 14+)

Shift through the void is an ability thats okay to have at level 9

Energy immunity is fine by level 6.

Regeneration 1 is fine for a first level ability. It just means that you don't need to heal between battles, because you already do. In battle it means nothing, even at level 1.

They give you more DR than that at level 1 in Unearthed Arcana, in the Armour as DR variant, and that Variant is bad.

At epic levels you are meant to be epic. This is the sort of stuff that I would expect from a honey badger. (with maybe a level of barbarian)

Tempestfury
2014-06-01, 01:45 PM
... Are you from the minmax boards? Because your replies here have reminded me pretty sharply about the feedback I got from my Epic Feats there, and about how simply 'un-epic' they are.

Firstly, the attribute stacking. Your right in that the current forms are underpowered, but don't underestimate it. At level 20 with this feat, your abilities will have +10/+8/+6/+4/+2. If I turn it into the full bonus, instead of a half, that's a +5 bonus right there. Which is an epic boost.

Then the other suggestions... uh... No. Greater-Teleport is a level 7 spell. Having it At-Will, is an EPIC ability, NOT something to have at level 9. Energy Immunity is NOT a level 6 ability. AND REGENERATION. Which turns almost ALL damage into NON-LETHAL by simply it. IS NOT A LEVEL 1 ABILITY! Fast-Healing maybe, but Regeneration? Nope nope nope nope.

Also, I know that the DR/- from Scales of the Dragon isn't much, but you've got to remember that the DR STACKS with ALL other types of DR! Hence why I've been careful with it. Though I might reduce it to your ECL-17 or something, so you get 4/- at level 22 if you buy it.

andreichekov
2014-06-01, 11:12 PM
... Are you from the minmax boards? Because your replies here have reminded me pretty sharply about the feedback I got from my Epic Feats there, and about how simply 'un-epic' they are.

Firstly, the attribute stacking. Your right in that the current forms are underpowered, but don't underestimate it. At level 20 with this feat, your abilities will have +10/+8/+6/+4/+2. If I turn it into the full bonus, instead of a half, that's a +5 bonus right there. Which is an epic boost.

Then the other suggestions... uh... No. Greater-Teleport is a level 7 spell. Having it At-Will, is an EPIC ability, NOT something to have at level 9. Energy Immunity is NOT a level 6 ability. AND REGENERATION. Which turns almost ALL damage into NON-LETHAL by simply it. IS NOT A LEVEL 1 ABILITY! Fast-Healing maybe, but Regeneration? Nope nope nope nope.

Also, I know that the DR/- from Scales of the Dragon isn't much, but you've got to remember that the DR STACKS with ALL other types of DR! Hence why I've been careful with it. Though I might reduce it to your ECL-17 or something, so you get 4/- at level 22 if you buy it.

no, I am from a place much worse THE DEN! http://www.tgdmb.com/index.php
So, why not just make a +5 bonus? Then it is epic and problem solved.

I misread that as Teleport. didn't see the greater. Still, I don't see why at EPIC levels it can't just be as the spell, caster level 20, and use 3+whatever/day. Why is it limited to just you at first?

And regeneration. nope nope nope. At level 1 anything ever does atleast 1d4 damage, which will make you go unconcious faster than you remove the non lethal damage, and then coup de grace for kill. The benefits of it over fast healing are really small. Also, at level 21 almost everything everywhere can bypass it anyway. So, you are just giving a non ability. Regeneration 30 might be enough, but probably still not enough to matter, because it only hoses melee types.

Energy Immunity is a level 6 spell. sorry. But still, that is not particularly impressive to get something that has been done by others for 8 levels already.

So, barbarians get 6+3, and druid gets 30+3. Now I see how it is over powered. Makes perfect sense. Except not. Just make it not stack, and then it can be a real ability. How about just making it as powerful as premonition, and it doesn't stack with anything. then you get the nice bonus, and it can't become ridiculous because it doesn't stack.

Tempestfury
2014-06-02, 03:36 AM
no, I am from a place much worse THE DEN! http://www.tgdmb.com/index.php

... Never heard of it.


So, why not just make a +5 bonus? Then it is epic and problem solved.

Because 1. That is boring as ****. 2. It doesn't scale. 3. Having it ECL-16 or something would have it scale too fast.


I misread that as Teleport. didn't see the greater. Still, I don't see why at EPIC levels it can't just be as the spell, caster level 20, and use 3+whatever/day. Why is it limited to just you at first?

Because Vow of Poverty is primarily an ability that benefits you and you first. Hence why its limited to you. Be grateful that you even GET the ability to teleport others, as the other Vow's don't give you that.


And regeneration. nope nope nope. At level 1 anything ever does atleast 1d4 damage, which will make you go unconcious faster than you remove the non lethal damage, and then coup de grace for kill. The benefits of it over fast healing are really small. Also, at level 21 almost everything everywhere can bypass it anyway. So, you are just giving a non ability. Regeneration 30 might be enough, but probably still not enough to matter, because it only hoses melee types.

Unconcious is better than dead, and unless your stupid, you probably WON'T be fighting alone, so a coup de grace is incrediably unlikely, and that's not even taking into account that its actually possible to become immune to non-lethal damage at level 1 (Possibly. The Pugilist ACF is REALLY unclear on that).

And no, at level 21, not 'almost everything' will be able to by-pass it instant. Especially if you have say, Regen/Lawful or Regen/Chaos, as they tend to be a lot rarer than evil weapons or spells. ADDITIONALLY, in case you didn't READ. This feat takes inspiration from OTHER, previous feats... and in them, regeneration was an Epic Feature, and I 100% agree with you. Its NOT changing.


Energy Immunity is a level 6 spell. sorry. But still, that is not particularly impressive to get something that has been done by others for 8 levels already.

Level six still means level 11-12, NOT level six. Not to mention this is a PERMANENT, cannot be dispelled AND works in an Antimagic Field.



So, barbarians get 6+3, and druid gets 30+3. Now I see how it is over powered. Makes perfect sense. Except not. Just make it not stack, and then it can be a real ability. How about just making it as powerful as premonition, and it doesn't stack with anything. then you get the nice bonus, and it can't become ridiculous because it doesn't stack.

Except its designed to work with the Thick Skin normal Vow of Poverty feature. Which would currently give you DR 22/Epic and X, as well as DR 2/-, and the DR Epic & X will increase 2 per level, which makes it strong, but NOT overpowered. Making it into something that gives DR 30/Adamantine would be 100% worthless.

Plus, your comprassion is stupid, Vow of Poverty really shouldn't be taken by Tier 1 classes, they get enough **** as it is.

Guard
2014-07-20, 06:28 AM
Look, if giving this to a tier1 class make them better than they are already, your vow of poverty, which explicitly exchanges one thing for another on an equal basis, is too powerful, sorry to say.

Wouldn't it just be simpler if you kept a gp tally of everything you sacrifice, and can 'buy' item effects out of that? You could even make it into not a feat, but a character option. Then you don't have to tack on a bunch of extra feats, and the thing you give up (wbl) is exactly what you recieve in return, taking into account that your gm might be generous/stingy with treasure. Add in the armor bonus of a breastplate, and let them 'buy' everything else.

This system also handles consumables just fine, and if you make a clause like yours for spellbooks, they work out as well.

Tempestfury
2014-07-20, 08:28 AM
Look, if giving this to a tier1 class make them better than they are already, your vow of poverty, which explicitly exchanges one thing for another on an equal basis, is too powerful, sorry to say.

That can be said about ANY version of Vow of Poverty really, but really. Its no more powerful that is a tier 1 class spent their wbl normally, and if you prove otherwise, well, the other VoP fixes more than likely have the same problem.


Wouldn't it just be simpler if you kept a gp tally of everything you sacrifice, and can 'buy' item effects out of that? You could even make it into not a feat, but a character option. Then you don't have to tack on a bunch of extra feats, and the thing you give up (wbl) is exactly what you recieve in return, taking into account that your gm might be generous/stingy with treasure. Add in the armor bonus of a breastplate, and let them 'buy' everything else.

... That is an unimaginative cop out, in my opinion. Yes, it could work, but its a very drab and boring way of doing things, especially as there is no difference between taking VoP or not. Like, at all.

Guard
2014-07-20, 09:23 AM
I must admit I actually thought the design goal of vow of poverty was to make a character not decked out in magic items function as if he was decked out in magic items, as the characters kind of need to be decked out in magic items in order to be competitive.

You say it's drab - I retort that it is both simple and balanced, not only in context of the rules as represented by WBL, but also in context of a campaign where the GM is stingy or generous with the FAT LEWT.:smallbiggrin:

I think fixes of broken things (like BoED VoP) that are both simple and balanced constitute elegant design, but YM obviously varies.

Why make something long and convoluted when you can fit it into the text of a feat?

Still, It's clear that you've put some thought into this fix, and convincing you to let go of it and see the holy light of my ideaTM would be a somewhat fruitless excercise, as numerous historical scenarios has shown, so let's just agree to disagree, shall we? :smallredface:

I would actually be interested in hearing your design goals for this feat. If you feel like squandering some time explaining your thought proccess to a random internet stranger I'd be much obliged.

infinitetech
2014-10-07, 03:27 AM
a very interesting attempt at redoing this system, might use this some time soon