TWF fix PEACH

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys. So, little known fact, two weapon fighting kind of sucks. So I decided to try and make it not suck. So, here are the changes I made: If your off hand weapon is one handed, it's treated as if it was a light weapon, if this was vanilla twf. You incur penalty's from twf, if you have no feats for it, as if you had vanilla twf. If you have the first twf feat, you incur no penalty's from twf. If you have improved twf, you can make an extra attack with your off hand weapon. If you have greater, you make a third attack. Neither one of the extra attacks has penalty's. The prerequisites have become less harsh as well. In short, here are the revamped feats:

Two Weapon Fighting
Prerequisites: Dex 13
Effect: You no longer incur a penalty from fighting with two weapons.

Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two weapon fighting, BAB +6
Effect: You can make a second attack with your off hand weapon.

Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Improved Two weapon fighting, BAB +11
Effect: You make a third attack with you off hand weapon.

And I thought of another one:

Flawless Two weapon fighting
Prerequisites: Dex 19, Greater two weapon fighting, BAB +16
Effect: You make a fourth attack with your off hand weapon.

EDIT 1: Any time you could make an attack with your primary hand weapon (now only if you have ITWF), you may make an equal number of attacks with your off hand weapon, as long as you have the feats necessary for the extra attacks.
EDIT 2: Your second attack uses your second highest BAB, you third attack uses your third highest BAB and your fourth attack uses you fourth highest BAB.
EDIT 3: More of a note really, if your off hand weapon is one handed, you apply 1x your strength modifier to damage rolls.
EDIT 4: Two weapon fighting gives you two weapon defence, ITWF gives you the ability to do what edit one says. Greater gives you two weapon rend, and I don't know what to give flawless.

What do you guys think? Love it? Hate it? Is it op? Is it royally awful? What mistakes did I make? And as always, go nuts.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Reducing the penalties is good, but you haven't done much about the feat tax-- a character still needs to waste more than half his level-up feats to get all his off-hand attacks. And problems with mobility and damage reduction remain. (Not to mention the cost of buying two magic weapons)

I suggest making the base feat grant a number of off-hand attacks equal to main-hand attacks, with subsequent feats granting more and more bonuses-- only applying DR once, attacking with both weapons as a standard action, a working two-weapon pounce, stuff like that.

[Teapot Salty]

Reducing the penalties is good, but you haven't done much about the feat tax-- a character still needs to waste more than half his level-up feats to get all his off-hand attacks. And problems with mobility and damage reduction remain. (Not to mention the cost of buying two magic weapons)

That's what I was forgetting. The feat tax is there on purpose, although your right, it is a little too harsh, but otherwise it just seems op. And your second point, correct me if I'm wrong, are you talking about how you can only attack with one weapon on a charge and the like?

[Tempestfury]

Hold on? The second attack has no penalty? So your attack at full BAB with both attacks?!

[Teapot Salty]

Hold on? The second attack has no penalty? So your attack at full BAB with both attacks?!
To the oh crap I forgot to ad that mobile!

[Tempestfury]

To the oh crap I forgot to ad that mobile!

XD.

Yeah, that's why the penalty is there in the first place, as its the same penalties that you normally get.

Maybe you could merge feats through? Like, Improved Weapon Fighting also gets Double Slice. Greater Weapon Fighting allows you to strike with both weapons whenever your normally allowed to take an attack with your primary weapon. And Flawless... ummm... get a Shield AC bonus equal to your off-hand weapon's Enchantment Bonus?

[gr8artist]

We chose to keep the normal penalties, but we have a house rule that all iteratives after the first are at -5, rather than dropping to -10 or -15.
TWF functions as normal but gives an offhand attack on your first main attack each turn (good for charges and attacks of opportunity).
ITWF gives off hand for all iteratives. So two feats at BAB +11 would yield attacks at +9/+9/+4/+4/+4/+4 after normal penalties.
The accuracy penalty, lower weapon damage, and weapon expenses are balance enough for the relatively efficient return on feat investment.

[Seerow]

Yeah this chain is still just a giant feat tax. Seriously, you're spending 4 feats to get the ability to use a weak offhand attack. Compare a Fighter with a Two Hander to a Fighter with Two Weapon Fighting. The Two Handed Fighter is doing just as good with no feats as the TWFer is doing with 4.

In my recently posted feat changes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336953) the majority of your feats fall under the basic two weapon fighting proficiency, with the actual feats providing improvements to the style from there.

[Teapot Salty]

XD.

Yeah, that's why the penalty is there in the first place, as its the same penalties that you normally get.

Maybe you could merge feats through? Like, Improved Weapon Fighting also gets Double Slice. Greater Weapon Fighting allows you to strike with both weapons whenever your normally allowed to take an attack with your primary weapon. And Flawless... ummm... get a Shield AC bonus equal to your off-hand weapon's Enchantment Bonus?

I don't see the point of double slice, since you are (or at least should be) wielding a one handed weapon in you off hand.


Yeah this chain is still just a giant feat tax. Seriously, you're spending 4 feats to get the ability to use a weak offhand attack. Compare a Fighter with a Two Hander to a Fighter with Two Weapon Fighting. The Two Handed Fighter is doing just as good with no feats as the TWFer is doing with 4.

In my recently posted feat changes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336953) the majority of your feats fall under the basic two weapon fighting proficiency, with the actual feats providing improvements to the style from there.
How is the off hand attack weak? As I said above, you should be using a one handed weapon. In 2xlongsword vs greatsword, with all the feats (DOWNSIDES! WOOT WOOT!) IF all the attacks land it's 8d8 vs 8d6. And their more likely to land than before. Meh, I'm getting defensive, but....

[Grod_The_Giant]

How is the off hand attack weak? As I said above, you should be using a one handed weapon. In 2xlongsword vs greatsword, with all the feats (DOWNSIDES! WOOT WOOT!) IF all the attacks land it's 8d8 vs 8d6. And their more likely to land than before. Meh, I'm getting defensive, but....
The light verses one-handed weapon is pretty irrelevant-- d6 to d8 is an average of +1 damage. And at higher levels, most of your damage is coming from Strength and Power Attack bonuses-- two things that two-handed weapons are better at*. Not to mention that the style is cheaper, since you're only paying for one weapon.

*Your off-hand only takes +1/2 strength to damage... which theoretically averages out to be the same as the 1 1/2 strength to a two-handed weapon, but you're applying DR twice as often

[Tempestfury]

I don't see the point of double slice, since you are (or at least should be) wielding a one handed weapon in you off hand.

So? Doing full STR damage will still help.

[Teapot Salty]

So? Doing full STR damage will still help.


The light verses one-handed weapon is pretty irrelevant-- d6 to d8 is an average of +1 damage. And at higher levels, most of your damage is coming from Strength and Power Attack bonuses-- two things that two-handed weapons are better at*. Not to mention that the style is cheaper, since you're only paying for one weapon.

*Your off-hand only takes +1/2 strength to damage... which theoretically averages out to be the same as the 1 1/2 strength to a two-handed weapon, but you're applying DR twice as often

Oh, I didn't explain the one handed thing properly, the edit is now above.

[Tempestfury]

... You what, never mind. THis is just a huge mess.

[Grod_The_Giant]

... You what, never mind. THis is just a huge mess.
Agreed. Go ahead and rewrite things to take into account all edits-- the "Two-Weapon Fighting" part of the Combat chapter, and the feats themselves. It's kind of hard to tell what your current ruleset is at the moment.