Fading Suns Help

[Chokuto]

So, I got my hands on some 2nd edition books for Fading Suns that have been collecting dust in a friend's basement, so after we wrapped up a pathfinder campaign, we cracked these suckers open and we are loving it.

But there seem to be some pieces that are omitted from the corebook(s), namely what the church considers damnable technology even among guild members and nobility.

Anyone have some more information on the lore or know where I could find some?

[tensai_oni]

Isn't the Forbidden Lore: Technology book about this, pretty much?

[Rhynn]

I think the short list is...

- Genetic technology, most biotech in general.
- Artificial intelligence.
- Humanoid robots/androids.
- Biological, chemical, and genetic weapons/WMDs.
- Psychic technology.
- Cybertech, IIRC.

Basically, anything that imitates or alters humanity is heretical. There's probably exceptions, and individual Inquisitors may have broaders definitions, and the Church probably has to occasionally ban some newly rediscovered heretical tech.

Of course, when the Emperor Wars were going down, nobody gave a crap about the Church's opinion (until it was locally enforced by Church dropships bringing Inquisitors and Brothers of Battle...), and Grimsons and other genetically and cybernetically altered soldiers, AI warmachines, etc., were used extensively (although obviously they probably weren't common enough that most people were likely to ever witness them).

[Pocket lint]

Fading Suns leaves a lot of things to the GM to fill out, sadly.

One personal conclusion that I've drawn is that in order to maintain the low level of availability and the medieval feel of the settings, corporations can not be allowed. The invention of corporate personhood was one of the key factors behind the industrial revolution, and would skew the setting too much towards a generic scifi tone. </undergrad history geekery>

It's easy to think up theological reasons behind it - granting companies the same right as people devalues humans, yadda yadda. This means that weapons, armour etc are made personally by a master Engineer, not by companies. Mines etc would be personally owned by a Noble. This does go against canon, as there are a number of mentions of companies, brand names etc.

[Rhynn]

Fading Suns leaves a lot of things to the GM to fill out, sadly.

Sadly?

What kind of a world is this, where leaving room for the GM to make things up is considered bad? :smallannoyed:

It's not like it's hard to get a feel for the setting - it's Dune and WH40K and the Middle Ages...

Incidentally, I believe corporate personhood was a subject of theological debates going back quite a long ways, wasn't it?

It definitely feels like a fitting solution for the setting; the guilds are guilds, associations of people in the same field that negotiate collectively for monopolies, rather than corporations, etc.

[Pocket lint]

What kind of a world is this, where leaving room for the GM to make things up is considered bad? :smallannoyed:

Point taken :smallsmile:

The FS books are generally quite good when it comes to fluff text - I love the little stories from Alustro in the beginning. However, they are a bit shorter when you start trying to figure out how to portray things. The concept of the setting is quite simple - "Middle Ages (as pictured by snooty Renaissance authors) in Spaaace" but the devil is in the details. Granted, I had a lot of fun GMing the setting, and given the huge gaps in the canon material you can make up your own mind as to what's really going on with the War in the Heavens and whatnot.

What I mean by details are things like: How many nobles do we really have per planet? Are they all members of the handful of the ruling house, or are there hundreds of micro-houses in a feudal relationship? (mostly answered by inferring from some official adventures) Basic daily rituals as a good Unitarian? Can you buy toothbrushes locally or are they Evil Technology?

I found it necessary to make quite a lot of changes to make the setting reasonably consistent. I grant you it's a setting mostly driven by what feels thematic, but as a GM you have to be able to answer a lot of questions without straining suspension of disbelief too much.

[BWR]

Sadly?

What kind of a world is this, where leaving room for the GM to make things up is considered bad? :smallannoyed:


The kind where some of us like having detailed worlds at hand so we don't have to worry about making it all up as we go?
There's nothing wrong with making everything up on your own. There's also nothing wrong with filling in the blanks in an otherwise partially detailed setting.
But it also perfectly acceptable to wish that a setting was more detailed because you enjoy learning more about it and/or want to save yourself the effort of having to do setting work. And this opionin is in no way incompatible with filling in blanks yourself or creating original material.

[tensai_oni]

Are cybernetic enhancements really heretical? I seem to recall that quite a lot of characters had a minor implant (nothing Cyberpunk-level) or two and nobody wanted to burn them at the stake.

By the way, I didn't have a Fading Suns rulebook in my hands for years and it was only 1st ed when I had. But it was such a great setting. Very flavorful.

[Rhynn]

The kind where some of us like having detailed worlds at hand so we don't have to worry about making it all up as we go?
There's nothing wrong with making everything up on your own.

There's more than 31 books published for Fading Suns.

[Pocket lint]

Are cybernetic enhancements really heretical? I seem to recall that quite a lot of characters had a minor implant (nothing Cyberpunk-level) or two and nobody wanted to burn them at the stake

I like the smell of ka oil in the morning...

I believe it's not directly frowned on, but like so much else is not acceptable unless you fall under Privilege of the Martyrs. My copy of PoCS is sitting in basement storage, so feel free to correct me.

Did anyone have groups that were very pious? My players seemed to go in for detesting the church, and sadly the campaign ended before I had a chance to show them why its existence was necessary. It would have been nice to have them desperately looking for an Orthodox theurge.

[Chokuto]

Isn't the Forbidden Lore: Technology book about this, pretty much?

I actually have that book, and loved it, but it's written like a church handbook (which is cool) but they have spades and wheelbarrows listed as possibly damning tech that's use must be supervised by a priest. The book to me seemed to deal more with the church's view on serf's and tech, not noble's and guild members use.

I have a player who is a member of the Engineers who works on terraformers and helps keep them operational, but his shadow life is he is trying to create an "underground railroad" for AI. He has enough cybernetics to be considered "Soul Dead" by the church but most of it is synthflesh implants so they are not readily visible. I was wanting a clear list of guidelines of what tech the church would outright condemn and what tech would pique suspicion so that the player and character would know what parts of himself to hide and what parts he could use openly use without fear of immediate reprisal

[BWR]

There's more than 31 books published for Fading Suns.

Great! Doesn't make my point any less valid.

[Drakefall]

The way my GM ran it the allowance to use tech varied greatly depending on several factors.

If you were a noble you could use most of the cool tech, the more fancy your title the more fancy the tech to an extent as well. I believe there was some in-universe explanation to this along the lines of nobles being responsible and strong of will and thus able to use technology for the betterment of the empire without loosing their faith in the Pancreator or somesuch.

If you're in a guild you can get also get away with a good amount of tech use as long as you don't overtly piss off the church.

The amount of cybernetic augments one could get would vary from person to person. There was a big rule that if more than 50% of your body became cyber you were some abomination that had to be put down in the eyes of the church. This also really did vary from planet to planet and which, if any, arm of the church held sway over said planet. More orthodox or temple avesti planets would be incredibly strict. On others a farmer could have a replacement limb no fuss if he lost it legitimately. On the outer worlds where the church has next to no influence pretty much anyone can get cyber put into them intentionally as long as they can pay.

The engineers guild demands specific attention here. They could cyber up to all heck if they were careful enough and the guild would protect them so long as they stayed in its good graces.

[LibraryOgre]

One personal conclusion that I've drawn is that in order to maintain the low level of availability and the medieval feel of the settings, corporations can not be allowed. The invention of corporate personhood was one of the key factors behind the industrial revolution, and would skew the setting too much towards a generic scifi tone. </undergrad history geekery>

Sorta. Keep in mind, that the Guilds already function as corporations in a lot of ways, but they don't have any meaningful competition... you've got independent Navigators, sure, but they're mostly on small ships that aren't going to threaten the guild monopoly. They may represent themselves as conglomerations, but they're effectively corporations, with their own interests.

That said, I think the church tends to frown on any technology that imitates humanity OR internally changes a person. So they don't like golems, they don't like AIs, they don't like cybernetics... but they're ok with exoskeletons, glasses, and the like. Changing a person, after all, may conflict with their Internal Flame.

Of course, how well that's followed depends entirely on how much influence the Church has. The Li Halan are probably gonna get snippy about a cybereye, but they're not going to go to war with the Guild over it.