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View Full Version : Insect plague abuse

ken-do-nim
2007-02-03, 11:07 AM
So let's say your cleric can summon 4 swarms when casting insect plague, and let's say his opponent is large-sized. Large-sized creatures take up 4 squares. Can each of the insect plagues occupy one of the creature's 4 squares? If so, then that would mean that the creature takes 4 times as much damage (and must make 4 saving throws on his turn) than if one swarm was simply occupying his 4 squares. That doesn't seem right by common sense. What do you think?

Rigeld2
2007-02-03, 12:02 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#locustSwarm

Space: 10ft. So you cant do it.

edit: well you could with some interesting configurations... and it seems reasonable to me, especially since the swarms never move once theyre summoned.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-03, 12:39 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#locustSwarm

Space: 10ft. So you cant do it.

edit: well you could with some interesting configurations... and it seems reasonable to me, especially since the swarms never move once theyre summoned.

Right, even if I kept the swarms in 10 foot squares I could do it, but I don't have to:

Unlike other creatures with a 10-foot space, a swarm is shapeable. It can occupy any four contiguous squares, and it can squeeze through any space large enough to contain one of its component creatures.

oriong
2007-02-03, 01:04 PM
well, it is arguable that it is one giant swarm since the multiple swarms must be adjacent to each other.

However, I'd go ahead and let it happen, like rigeld said the insects can't move so all the large creature has to do is take a 5 foot step on his next turn and the bugs aren't such a big problem anymore.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-02-03, 01:18 PM
So my fireball should do 4x damage to a Large creature since it's hitting all four squares?

oriong
2007-02-03, 01:28 PM
So my fireball should do 4x damage to a Large creature since it's hitting all four squares?

No, that's not the issue. This spell summons multiple insect swarms each of which inflict damage on anything they share a space with: 4 seperate effects (as opposed to the single burst of fireball) which are positioned so that the creature is in the area of all 4 (without actually overlapping all 4)

ken-do-nim
2007-02-03, 03:33 PM
So my fireball should do 4x damage to a Large creature since it's hitting all four squares?

The correct analogy would be 4 fireball spells timed to go off at the same time that each happen to grab a piece of one large (or bigger) target. This actually lends credence to my idea.

Man, tough choice for that last 5th level spell for my favored soul character. Clearly insect plague is SWEET. Clearly crawling darkness is SWEET. Then there's righteous wrath of the faithful, disruption, true seeing, and summon bralani eladrin (once you take swift concentration from Complete Scoundrel). Choices, choices.

soylentplaid
2007-02-03, 03:41 PM
Separate damage fields, separate damage. If argued against, apply the Meteor Swarm argument. Meteor swarm does precisely the same thing: four fields of damage (plus bludgeoning damage if you happen to actually hit the poor schmuck with the meteors). If in multiple blast zones, target has to save versus each meteor's damage. So, too, is your Large monster in the AoE of four separate damage fields.

Also, this line from the spell: "Each swarm attacks any creatures occupying its area." Thus, it can easily be argued that your Large creature is in the area of multiple swarms, so they all get to attack him. I wouldn't consider four cornering a Large creature cheese, I'd consider it good times :P

oriong
2007-02-03, 03:43 PM
I'd say it's justified, if you summon 4 creatures they can all attack the same target. This spell just summons some weird creatures.

I would understand it if a gm chose to veto, but I still don't think it's abusive (one chance at 8d6 damage from a 5th level spell, not to mention that the damage doesn't penetrate DR)

Thomas
2007-02-03, 04:44 PM
So my fireball should do 4x damage to a Large creature since it's hitting all four squares?

As has been pointed out, that's incorrect... but the 3.0 spell slimewave DID work that way. For every square you occupied that was hit by the wave, you took Con damage. The bigger you were, the more surely you'd be killed. It was the most broken spell in the game.

oriong's last argument is cogent and simple; you summon four creatures, they can all damage the same Large creature. Why on earth not? A swarm doesn't have to share all your spaces with you to do damage - just one.

Amiria
2007-02-03, 05:32 PM
As has been pointed out, that's incorrect... but the 3.0 spell slimewave DID work that way. For every square you occupied that was hit by the wave, you took Con damage. The bigger you were, the more surely you'd be killed. It was the most broken spell in the game.

Hmm, the Spell Compendium version of Slime Wave says one green slime patch per creature.

But the Fiendish Codex I version (which is newer) says one green slime patch per 5 ft. face of a creature. Hooray ! :smallamused:

Thomas
2007-02-03, 06:06 PM
Oh no, they reprinted the old slime wave for 3.5?!

Gahhh.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-02-03, 06:13 PM
Wait, so if it actually summons four different monsters (insect swarms), where's the confusion? If they can each touch one of the squares the creature takes up, they all get to inflict damage.

Thomas
2007-02-03, 06:22 PM
The damage is only 2d6 per 3 caster levels, or 8d6 for 4 swarms (at CL 12) - and the swarms aren't exactly optimal for maintaining "focus," are fairly easy to disperse at these levels, etc. Not abusive or overpowered at all.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-03, 07:39 PM
The damage is only 2d6 per 3 caster levels, or 8d6 for 4 swarms (at CL 12) - and the swarms aren't exactly optimal for maintaining "focus," are fairly easy to disperse at these levels, etc. Not abusive or overpowered at all.

Agreed; it just seemed that way when I first thought of it. Of course it's not just the 8d6 damage it is also the 4 saving throws, but the dc is easy. But it is awfully fun to combo with say wall of stone. Insect plague is 1 round casting time, meaning it goes off right before your next turn. So you put the 4 locust swarms on the large creature, then you cast wall of stone and seal him in. Nowhere to run! Also great with hold monster, otto's dance, etc.