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Larkas
2014-04-08, 02:02 PM
Sword & Sorcery for Sneaky Scoundrels

In a sense, rogues are generalists. Able to contribute meaningfully to most situations, their versatility is a blessing to many adventuring groups, where their smooth-talking, infiltrating, somersaulting and backstabbing tactics are much appreciated. Being a rogue usually means making the most of any favorable situation, and bending those that may seem hopeless at first. The rogue always has an answer, even if the answer is just fleeing the scene to fight another day.

A few rogues, however, have the inclination to specialize in certain areas at the cost of others. The following archetypes are meant to represent those few that have taken their class's knack for combat, and even magic, to the next level.




Table of Contents:



The Skillful Striker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17271952&postcount=2)



The Sorcerous Swindler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17271958&postcount=3)



So, there must be some reason behind these archetypes, right?

Well, the gifted blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/gifted-blade) soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) certainly was an inspiration. Dreamscarred Press didn't only give an awesome treatment to the base class, they also went and made a paladin-like archetype for it. Not only that, the archetype just works. The powers, the progression and the base chassis combined to make a very interesting class that is a blast to play from 1st to 20th levels. The two archetypes presented below can be combined to make a ranger-like, and of course gifted blade-like, class, or taken separately to shore up perceived weaknessess in the rogue class.

Aside from that, I was a fan of 3.5's assassin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm) and psychic rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b). I took a page from their spell/power lists, added a few more spells I felt were thematic, and came up with the spell list for the sorcerous swindler. Now you can play an assassin from 1st level (and without being evil), or play a psychic rogue in PF!

And while we're on the subject, something that always bothered me is that both the paladin and the ranger (and also the hexblade and the gifted blade) don't get orisons/cantrips/talents. You'd never prepare detect poison as a ranger spell because you would never waste a 1st level slot on something that clerics, druids and wizards get as 0 level. I fixed that by giving the sorcerous swindler cantrips. I've also brought the acquisition of 1st level spells down one level, to mimic the gifted blade, but kept the paladin/ranger progression, which I feel makes more sense.

Lastly, on the skillful striker, I've also given the rogue something I felt they always should have had: Dex to damage. I just thought I should point it out. :smallbiggrin:

About the archetypes' names. Oh, those silly, silly names. I just couldn't help myself but keep the thread title's alliteration. Sorry for that! :smallredface:

Larkas
2014-04-08, 02:03 PM
http://i.imgur.com/rvuzOi9.png (http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f3/41/47/f34147e03edce8bf900993e499d597d1.jpg)



Skillful Striker



"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."



-Terry Pratchett


Rogues turn dirty-fighting into an art form. They know just where to hit to make their enemies suffer, and will take advantage of any distraction to knock out the opposition as fast as possible. The skillful striker doesn't know only where to hit, but also how to hit it. By focusing on the finer points of combat, they can match any warrior in skill at arms, and still exploit their weaknessess when their guard is down.


Combat Specialist (Ex)

For the purpose of attacks made with weapons that can be affected by Weapon Finesse (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-finesse-combat---final), the skillful striker's base attack bonus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attack-Bonus) from his rogue class levels is equal to his rogue level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the skillful striker uses his normal base attack bonus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attack-Bonus).

Furthermore, if the skillful striker selects finesse rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/finesse-rogue) as a rogue talent and attacks with one (or more) of the aforementioned weapons, he may add his Dexterity modifier instead of his Strength modifier as a bonus on damage for attacks made with that weapon.

This ability replaces trapfinding (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue#TOC-Trapfinding).


Maneuver Proficiency (Ex)

Starting at 1st level, a skillful striker uses his rogue level in place of his base attack bonus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attack-Bonus) when calculating his Combat Maneuver Bonus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuver-Bonus) for the dirty trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Dirty-Trick), disarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Disarm), steal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Steal) and trip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Trip) combat maneuvers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers). Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.

The multipliers for attacking with off-hand or two-handed weapons also apply to the substitute Dexterity modifier from the skillful striker's finesse rogue talent.

Larkas
2014-04-08, 02:04 PM
http://i.imgur.com/6HLYoO6.png (http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/2b/14/be/2b14beb38490b3bc547ee7d23904bc6a.jpg)



Sorcerous Swindler



"Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."



-Terry Pratchett


Rogues make great street magicians, what with their deft fingers and the tendency to abscond with other people's possessions. Some even achieve an amateurish grasp of the arcane, having learned how to conjure up a few minor supernatural effects or how to fool the magic out of items. A few, however, decide to take a more serious approach to sorcery. Lacking the focus of more dedicated spellcasters, a sorcerous swindler has nevertheless gained a superior understanding of the workings of magic, and is able to cast a few spells that can be very useful to his undertakings.


Class Skills

A sorcerous swindler gains Spellcraft (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/spellcraft) as a class skill.


Skill Ranks per Level

A sorcerous swindler gains 2 fewer skill ranks per level.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency

A sorcerous swindler can cast sorcerous swindler spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a sorcerous swindler wearing medium or heavy armor incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass sorcerous swindler still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.


Spellcasting

At 1st level, a sorcerous swindler gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells, which are drawn from the sorcerous swindler spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time.

To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerous swindler must have an Intelligence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Intelligence-Int-) score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Difficulty-Class-DC-) for a saving throw against a sorcerous swindler's spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerous swindler's Intelligence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Intelligence-Int-) modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerous swindler can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Sorcerous Swindler. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Intelligence-Int-) score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Abilities-and-Spellcasters)). When Table: Sorcerous Swindler indicates that the sorcerous swindler gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Intelligence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Intelligence-Int-) score for that spell level.

The sorcerous swindler's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerous swindler begins play knowing three 0-level spells of the sorcerous swindler's choice. At most new rogue levels, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerous Swindler. Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerous swindler knows is not affected by his Intelligence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Intelligence-Int-) score.

Upon reaching 3rd level, and at every third rogue level after that (6th, 9th, and so on), a sorcerous swindler can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerous swindler "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level sorcerous swindler spell the sorcerous swindler can cast. A sorcerous swindler may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

A sorcerous swindler needs not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.

This ability replaces trap sense (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue#TOC-Trap-Sense-Ex-).




Table: Sorcerous Swindler





Spells Per Day

Spells Known





1
2
3
4


1st






2nd






3rd
0





4th
1





5th
1





6th
1
0




7th
1
1




8th
2
1




9th
2
1
0



10th
2
1
1



11th
2
2
1



12th
3
2
1
0


13th
3
2
1
1


14th
3
2
2
1


15th
3
3
2
1


16th
4
3
2
1


17th
4
3
2
2


18th
4
3
3
2


19th
4
4
3
2


20th
4
4
3
3





0
1
2
3
4


1st
3






2nd
4






3rd
4
2





4th
4
3





5th
5
4





6th
5
4
2




7th
5
4
3




8th
6
5
4




9th
6
5
4
2



10th
6
5
4
3



11th
6
6
5
4



12th
6
6
5
4
2


13th
6
6
5
4
3


14th
6
6
6
5
4


15th
6
6
6
5
4


16th
6
6
6
5
4


17th
6
6
6
6
5


18th
6
6
6
6
5


19th
6
6
6
6
5


20th
6
6
6
6
6







Cantrips (Sp)

Sorcerous swindlers learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Sorcerous Swindler under "Spells Known." These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.


Sneak Attack (Ex)

A sorcerous swindler gains this ability starting at 1st level, and it functions as the rogue ability of the same name. The sneak attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue#TOC-Sneak-Attack) damage dealt is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 points every three rogue levels thereafter.


Rogue Talents

This functions as the rogue ability of the same name, though a few talents work differently for the sorcerous swindler.

First off, the sorcerous swindler may ignore all regular prerequisites of the familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-advanced-talents/familiar-ex)UC rogue talent, though he must be able to cast 1st-level spells before selecting it. Also, for the purposes of that rogue talent, the sorcerous swindler's effective wizard level is her rogue level -2.

Furthermore, a sorcerous swindler that selects minor magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/minor-magic-sp) as a rogue talent does not gain its usual benefits. Instead, he selects either one 1st-level or two 0-level spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spell-lists---sorcerer-and-wizard) and adds them to his list of spells known. As an additional prerequisite, however, he must be able to cast spells of the chosen spell level. Lastly, a sorcerous swindler may select that rogue talent more than once, choosing different spells each time.

Likewise, a sorcerous swindler that selects major magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/major-magic-sp) as a rogue talent doesn't gain its usual benefits either. He selects one 2nd-level or two 1st-level spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spell-lists---sorcerer-and-wizard) and adds them to his list of spells known. He must also be able to cast spells of the chosen spell level. Moreover, a sorcerous swindler may select said rogue talent more than once, choosing different spells each time.


Sorcerous Swindler Spell List

0 - daze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/daze), detect magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-magic), detect poison (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-poison), ghost sound (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/ghost-sound), know direction (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/know-direction), lullaby (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/lullaby), mage hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mage-hand), message (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/message), open/close (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/o/open-close), penumbra (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/rare-cantrips)UM, prestidigitation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/prestidigitation), read magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/read-magic), sift (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/sift)APG, touch of fatigue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/touch-of-fatigue).

1 - abundant ammunition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/abundant-ammunition)UC, alarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alarm), burst bonds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/burst-bonds)APG, charm person (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/charm-person), comprehend languages (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/comprehend-languages), detect secret doors (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-secret-doors), detect snares and pits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-snares-and-pits), disguise self (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/disguise-self), erase (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/erase), expeditious retreat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/expeditious-retreat), feather fall (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/feather-fall), feather step (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/feather-step)APG, forced quiet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/forced-quiet)UM, grease (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/grease), hypnotism (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hypnotism), identify (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/identify), jump (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/j/jump), keen senses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/keen-senses)APG, longshot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/longshot)UC, memory lapse (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/memory-lapse)APG, obscure object (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/o/obscure-object), obscuring mist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/o/obscuring-mist), reduce person (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/reduce-person), returning weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/returning-weapon)UC, shadow weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shadow-weapon)UM, shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shield), silent image (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/silent-image), sleep (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/sleep), true strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/true-strike), undetectable alignment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/u/undetectable-alignment), unseen servant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/u/unseen-servant), vanish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/vanish)APG, ventriloquism (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/ventriloquism).

2 - alter self (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alter-self), blindness/deafness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blindness-deafness), blur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blur), cat's grace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cat-s-grace), communal returning weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/returning-weapon)UC, darkness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/darkness), darkvision (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/darkvision), detect thoughts (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-thoughts), false life (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/false-life), find traps (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/find-traps), fox's cunning (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fox-s-cunning), hold person (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hold-person), illusory script (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/illusory-script), invisibility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/invisibility), knock (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/knock), lesser confusion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/confusion), levitate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/levitate), locate object (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/locate-object), misdirection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/misdirection), pass without trace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/pass-without-trace), pilfering hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/pilfering-hand)UC, retrieve item (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/retrieve-item)CTR, silence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/silence), spider climb (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spider-climb), tongues (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/tongues), trapfinder's focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/aram-zey-s-focus)PSFG, whispering wind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/whispering-wind).

3 - burst of speed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/burst-of-speed)UC, charm monster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/charm-monster), clairaudience/clairvoyance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/clairaudience-clairvoyance), deep slumber (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/deep-slumber), deeper darkness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/deeper-darkness), discern value (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/discern-value)DH, dispel magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dispel-magic), displacement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/displacement), glibness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/glibness), haste (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/haste), invisibility sphere (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/invisibility-sphere), keen edge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/keen-edge), nondetection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/n/nondetection), sculpt sound (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/sculpt-sound), secret page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/secret-page), see invisibility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/see-invisibility), sepia snake sigil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/sepia-snake-sigil), shadow step (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shadow-step)UM, slow (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/slow), suggestion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/suggestion), water walk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/water-walk).

4 - break enchantment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/break-enchantment), confusion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/confusion), dimension door (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dimension-door), freedom of movement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/freedom-of-movement), greater invisibility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/invisibility), hold monster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hold-monster), locate creature (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/locate-creature), modify memory (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/modify-memory), poison (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/poison), scrying (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/scrying), sending (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/sending), telepathic bond (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/telepathic-bond), zone of silence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/z/zone-of-silence).

Larkas
2014-04-08, 08:20 PM
Well, that's it. Any critique is welcomed! Let me know if there's balance problems, or if I missed something. But please, try to compare the archetypes to classes like the gifted blade or the ranger, not necessarily the base rogue. The sorcerous swindler specifically has probably gained more than it lost, and that's intentional. I felt the PF rogue was in a tough spot, and I wanted to remedy it somewhat. Anyways, I hope you like them! PEACH! :smallsmile:

Xerlith
2014-04-12, 04:43 AM
Both are absolutely awesome. They are balanced (against the game, not against each other, more later), they seem fun, altogether they give the PF Rogue much needed boost.

And those can be taken together. Oh my. By losing some weak (like, very weak) abilities I gain...
A Full BAB, partial casting skillmonkey character. Hey, I like it. And it's still quite balanced. At least, again - considering game balance. Class balance is a different shtick, because...
Well... Both archetypes are better. MUCH better.. Straight up better at every level. And I like it.
Maybe the Skillful Striker loses a bit because of the lost damage die, but as soon as iteratives kick in... Well. I am a bit torn here.

Spellcasting is MUCH more potent than trap sense - I guess this was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek substitution. :smalltongue:
But that's okay. Rogue is weak, trapsense is weak - this basically gives him something useful and versatile.
Skillful Striker gives some more incentive to build a two-weapon fighting character out of the Rogue.

I don't really have much to say - the power level seems very okay (A useful rogue at last!) and the idea and execution make me want to play this. Then again, I'm a fan of swashbuckling and gishing. :smallbiggrin:

Larkas
2014-04-12, 03:22 PM
Both are absolutely awesome. They are balanced (against the game, not against each other, more later), they seem fun, altogether they give the PF Rogue much needed boost.

And those can be taken together. Oh my. By losing some weak (like, very weak) abilities I gain...
A Full BAB, partial casting skillmonkey character. Hey, I like it. And it's still quite balanced. At least, again - considering game balance. Class balance is a different shtick, because...
Well... Both archetypes are better. MUCH better.. Straight up better at every level. And I like it.
Maybe the Skillful Striker loses a bit because of the lost damage die, but as soon as iteratives kick in... Well. I am a bit torn here.

Spellcasting is MUCH more potent than trap sense - I guess this was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek substitution. :smalltongue:
But that's okay. Rogue is weak, trapsense is weak - this basically gives him something useful and versatile.
Skillful Striker gives some more incentive to build a two-weapon fighting character out of the Rogue.

I don't really have much to say - the power level seems very okay (A useful rogue at last!) and the idea and execution make me want to play this. Then again, I'm a fan of swashbuckling and gishing. :smallbiggrin:

Hey, I'm glad you liked it! You got everything right, too: these archetypes were brewed with in-game, and not in-class, balance in mind. They should make for fun and effective characters, with approximately the same level of effectiveness of a ranger or a gifted blade. Or so I hope! :smallredface:

And you know what's funny? Only as I was finishing writing both archetypes did it dawn on me how well a swashbuckler could be made out of them. Well, I sure as hell am not complaining about it! :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately, the rogue lost much of its unique trapfinding niche on the transition. In PF, anyone can search for magic traps. Furthermore, many classes also get archetypes with trapfinding, and can disable those traps while still keeping other useful stuff to do when that isn't called for. I thought what the heck, let's get rid of these trap options (the irony didn't dawn on me until now, I must confess :smallbiggrin: ) and give something actually useful instead. Besides, the sorcerous swindler has the find traps and trapfinder's focus spells if that ever becomes relevant (spells that are still useful if the character decides to not trade in trapfinding), and you can actually select trapfinding (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/multiclass-archetype-supplements/rogue-talents/rogue-talents/trapfinding) as a rogue talent. I hope that, with these archetypes, the PF rogue actually becomes a fully functional class. :smallredface:

The Random NPC
2014-05-22, 06:02 AM
You may want to clarify which BAB you add to your CMB/CMD. I assume, like with everything else, you add the one that applies to the weapon in hand, and if it doesn't use a weapon you use the 3/4 one.
At first I was thinking that 4 spells a day might be too little, but then I remembered that Wizards only get 4 a day (admittedly they're SAD, but this can end up being DAD), so it's probably fine.
Otherwise they seem solid. I was planning on begging my GM to allow some 3.5 classes in a 1-20 game he's thinking about running, but now I kind of what to play this. Now I'll have to choose between this, Shadowcaster, Incarnate, and Dragonfire Adept.
P.S. Don't forget that Pages of Spell Knowledge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/page-of-spell-knowledge) are a thing. Man I love that item.

Larkas
2014-05-24, 05:53 PM
You may want to clarify which BAB you add to your CMB/CMD. I assume, like with everything else, you add the one that applies to the weapon in hand, and if it doesn't use a weapon you use the 3/4 one.
Actually, the idea was for it to apply only to attacks made with finesse weapons. Do I need to clarify the wording to reflect that?

Then again, I guess using rogue HD for Dirty Trick, Disarm, Steal and maybe even Trip might be a neat idea. Hmmmm... Would a rogue talent do the trick?


At first I was thinking that 4 spells a day might be too little, but then I remembered that Wizards only get 4 a day (admittedly they're SAD, but this can end up being DAD), so it's probably fine.
Indeed! And remember: the sorcerous swindler is (kind of) balanced around (or at least meant to be compared to) the existing half-casters (paladin, rogue, DSP's gifted blade, 3.5's hexblade and assassin), so I didn't want to go too crazy there. Anyways, if you ever see yourself running out of steam, don't forget that all your spells can be had in wand form!


Otherwise they seem solid. I was planning on begging my GM to allow some 3.5 classes in a 1-20 game he's thinking about running, but now I kind of what to play this. Now I'll have to choose between this, Shadowcaster, Incarnate, and Dragonfire Adept.
WOOT! I'd be VERY honored if you chose these archetypes! If you ever get to play with them, please tell me all about the experience! What works, what doesn't, what needs more polishing and what needs to be added in! It would be a great help in refining them! :smallbiggrin:


P.S. Don't forget that Pages of Spell Knowledge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/page-of-spell-knowledge) are a thing. Man I love that item.
Oh, I never forget about them. They are the spiritual successors of quite literally my favorite item for 3.5 sorcerers: Knowstones! They are a great boon to any caster that needs to select spells known, and the sorcerous swindler is no exception!

The Random NPC
2014-05-24, 09:00 PM
Actually, the idea was for it to apply only to attacks made with finesse weapons. Do I need to clarify the wording to reflect that?

Then again, I guess using rogue HD for Dirty Trick, Disarm, Steal and maybe even Trip might be a neat idea. Hmmmm... Would a rogue talent do the trick?

Right, that's basically what I was asking. Based on the Monk's Flurry of blows, whenever the Rogue used a weapon that could be affected by Weapon Finesse, they would use their level. Since Combat Specialist doesn't disallow it, it would probably default to that as it has core support. As for making a Rogue talent that does it, I find that most of the maneuvers aren't very effective uses of my actions in the first place, so I'd be unlikely to choose that talent to begin with.


Indeed! And remember: the sorcerous swindler is (kind of) balanced around (or at least meant to be compared to) the existing half-casters (paladin, rogue, DSP's gifted blade, 3.5's hexblade and assassin), so I didn't want to go too crazy there. Anyways, if you ever see yourself running out of steam, don't forget that all your spells can be had in wand form!

Yeah, I tend to play casters, so I find myself making bad judgments when looking at other classes. I had to remind myself that this was a partial caster, and to add more spells would probably mean I would end up playing a specialized caster, rather than a Rogue.


WOOT! I'd be VERY honored if you chose these archetypes! If you ever get to play with them, please tell me all about the experience! What works, what doesn't, what needs more polishing and what needs to be added in! It would be a great help in refining them! :smallbiggrin:

If the game ever starts, and I play this, I'll be sure to let you know what happens.


Oh, I never forget about them. They are the spiritual successors of quite literally my favorite item for 3.5 sorcerers: Knowstones! They are a great boon to any caster that needs to select spells known, and the sorcerous swindler is no exception!

I once played a game that quickly went monty haul, and I spent all my gold on Pages of Spell Knowledge, the DM didn't know what to do as I pulled out a perfect spell for every situation after that :smallbiggrin:.

Larkas
2014-05-25, 10:02 PM
Right, that's basically what I was asking. Based on the Monk's Flurry of blows, whenever the Rogue used a weapon that could be affected by Weapon Finesse, they would use their level. Since Combat Specialist doesn't disallow it, it would probably default to that as it has core support. As for making a Rogue talent that does it, I find that most of the maneuvers aren't very effective uses of my actions in the first place, so I'd be unlikely to choose that talent to begin with.
Hmmm, I guess you're right. I think I'll give it out for free, then. Maybe at 3rd level, to mimic the monk. And I'll revise the wording to avoid funky interactions. Thanks for pointing it out!


I once played a game that quickly went monty haul, and I spent all my gold on Pages of Spell Knowledge, the DM didn't know what to do as I pulled out a perfect spell for every situation after that :smallbiggrin:.
Oh, I can certainly relate! Knowstones let me add a few situational spells to my otherwise pretty generalist Sorcerers. They are simply awesome!

EDIT: Alright, I revised the wording for combat specialist and added in maneuver proficiency! I've also added a couple of spells to the sorcerous swindler's spell list.

Larkas
2014-06-24, 10:39 PM
UPDATE: I've nerfed the sorcerous swindler a little bit. The archetype coming at no real cost was bothering me, so I decided to mess a little with the sneak attack progression. Now you cap at 8d6 (7d6 in conjunction with skillful striker). This emulates the psychic rogue, and means an average decrease of 7 damage per sneak attack hit @20. This shouldn't mean much, specially if you pair both archetypes (skillful striker means you'll hit more consistently and more often). Let me know, however, if you think I overdid it.

On other news, I only recently found out about the familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-advanced-talents/familiar-ex) rogue talent, and thought that it would be neat if the sorcerous swindler could access it early. Aside from the obvious advantages, this would also emulate the paladin's divine bond and the ranger's hunter's bond! Hence, I came up with the modification filed under Rogue Talents in the sorcerous swindler post. At the very least, this opens up the possibility for the sorcerous swindler to have a buddy to help him scout. :smallsmile: I hope you like it!

Psyren
2014-07-23, 07:48 PM
Combat Specialist:
- The way this is worded, it will increase the rogue's CMB but not his CMD (because the latter is not an attack.) There is precedent for this (monk's flurry of blows) but I wanted to b sure you intended this result.
- As written this seems as though it will add the rogue's full Dex to damage on attacks made with off-hand weapons. Was this intended as well? If not, spell out that offhand weapons still do 0.5, and clarify the situation for 2-handed weapons as well. (Elven Curve Blade is a 2H finesse weapon.)
- I'm not sure why you're delaying/reducing the sneak attack on a combat-based rogue. If anyone needs less sneak attack it's the second guy.

Sorcerous Swindler:
- I would definitely give up trapfinding and trap sense in place of the spellcasting, particularly since they get Find Traps on their spell list. They will still be T3 even without it.
- I would also delay the sneak attack a bit. Let them get the 1d6 at level 1, but then make it every 3 levels after instead of every 2. This will also have the same effect as removing the 7 and 13 increases.
- I would add Enervation to their list as a 4th-level spell. It's the kind of attack I'd expect a sneaky caster to use.'
- Ray of Frost as a cantrip would combo well with their sneak attack.
- I would let them gain additional spells known with the "Magic Talent" line. Minor MT would give extra 1sts while Major MT would give extra 2nds.

Larkas
2014-07-24, 12:25 PM
Thank you very much for taking the time to review these, Psyren! Let's tackle one point at a time:


Combat Specialist:
- The way this is worded, it will increase the rogue's CMB but not his CMD (because the latter is not an attack.) There is precedent for this (monk's flurry of blows) but I wanted to b sure you intended this result.
It's actually intended. This guy is aimed more at attacking than defending, so it kind of makes sense!


- As written this seems as though it will add the rogue's full Dex to damage on attacks made with off-hand weapons. Was this intended as well? If not, spell out that offhand weapons still do 0.5, and clarify the situation for 2-handed weapons as well. (Elven Curve Blade is a 2H finesse weapon.)
It wasn't, actually. I thought of it more in mathematical terms: if you substitute Str for Dex, .5*Str becomes .5*Dex. Hmmm... Some clarification is in order, I guess.


- I'm not sure why you're delaying/reducing the sneak attack on a combat-based rogue. If anyone needs less sneak attack it's the second guy.
Well, yeah, it's funny you asked, you see, because. Well... I didn't know what else to do. =x Thing is, as this is an archetype, it has to exchange something for the new stuff, right? My first thoughts were of decreasing skill points per level (instead of doing that on the sorcerous swindler), but I didn't want to reinforce the "guys that are good in battle can't be good outside of it" mentality. But on second thought... It kind of makes more sense, doesn't it? Do you think that giving up 2 skill points is enough of a trade-off for the stuff this archetype gives?


Sorcerous Swindler:
- I would definitely give up trapfinding and trap sense in place of the spellcasting, particularly since they get Find Traps on their spell list. They will still be T3 even without it.
Hmmm, makes sense. Makes even more sense if skillful striker no longer gives up trapfinding. (Remember, these archetypes were made to be compatible with each other, so one can make a gifted blade/ranger/paladin-like rogue).


- I would also delay the sneak attack a bit. Let them get the 1d6 at level 1, but then make it every 3 levels after instead of every 2. This will also have the same effect as removing the 7 and 13 increases.
I actually thought about going that route, but I didn't want to screw archetype-stacking: if an archetype gives something in exchange for the sneak attack dice gained at 5th level, for example, it wouldn't be compatible with the sorcerous swindler. By simply giving up a few specific dice, compatibility should be maximized, even if the progression is less smooth. What do you think?


- I would add Enervation to their list as a 4th-level spell. It's the kind of attack I'd expect a sneaky caster to use.'
Good idea! It fits with the debuffing part of the archetype's spells theme just fine! Do you think that the HP-reducing part of the spell is too "blasty", though? I'm specifically avoiding blasting spells here.


- Ray of Frost as a cantrip would combo well with their sneak attack.
Awwww, shoot. You're right, but it goes against the standard I set for myself when writing the spell list. But hold on to that thought.


- I would let them gain additional spells known with the "Magic Talent" line. Minor MT would give extra 1sts while Major MT would give extra 2nds.
THIS is gold! Not only does it make sense, it can shore up perceived weaknesses in the spell list. You could, for example, net Ray of Frost, Shocking Grasp and/or Scorching Ray (did anyone say "multiple ranged touch sneak attacks"?)! Great idea!

The Random NPC
2014-07-25, 12:34 AM
I was going to play a 1-20 game with these archetypes, but that fell through after one session. So I only have a couple of fights to draw from, but here goes. Since Combat Specialist gives Dex to damage, I dumped Str, and that really kill my effectiveness in combat. Both fights only lasted three rounds, but I couldn't hit what with having a -1 (+1 BAB for using a finesse-able weapon, -2 for low strength) to hit, I just kept whiffing. Other than that, careful selection of cantrips (dancing lights and prestidigitation) allowed me to contribute in non-combat more frequently, and in unexpected ways.

Larkas
2014-07-26, 10:54 PM
I was going to play a 1-20 game with these archetypes, but that fell through after one session. So I only have a couple of fights to draw from, but here goes. Since Combat Specialist gives Dex to damage, I dumped Str, and that really kill my effectiveness in combat. Both fights only lasted three rounds, but I couldn't hit what with having a -1 (+1 BAB for using a finesse-able weapon, -2 for low strength) to hit, I just kept whiffing. Other than that, careful selection of cantrips (dancing lights and prestidigitation) allowed me to contribute in non-combat more frequently, and in unexpected ways.

I'm glad the overall experience was nice, but how exactly did that happen? Did you pick Finesse Rogue? It gives Dex to attack and damage, instead of Str. You could dump your Str into oblivion and should still hit reliably with it!

The Random NPC
2014-07-27, 12:32 AM
I'm glad the overall experience was nice, but how exactly did that happen? Did you pick Finesse Rogue? It gives Dex to attack and damage, instead of Str. You could dump your Str into oblivion and should still hit reliably with it!

You don't actually get a rogue talent until second level, and since Dex to damage is tied to Finesse Rogue, I was going to wait until second level to grab it.
EDIT: Also since you now lose your first level Sneak Attack, and Trapfinding, now all you get at first level is... cantrips.

Larkas
2014-07-27, 09:54 AM
You don't actually get a rogue talent until second level, and since Dex to damage is tied to Finesse Rogue, I was going to wait until second level to grab it.
EDIT: Also since you now lose your first level Sneak Attack, and Trapfinding, now all you get at first level is... cantrips.

Aaaaah, makes sense, you did mention the game only lasted one session. Hmmm... Psyren's assessment makes even more sense, then!

Larkas
2014-07-28, 05:03 PM
Alright, I've updated both archetypes to reflect recent playtest data and advice.

- The skillful striker no longer loses any sneak attack dice;

- The sorcerous swindler now has a different, slower sneak attack progression. Furthermore, he may enhance his spell access using a couple of rogue talents.

Overall, I think the modifications, simple though they might be, really helped both archetypes come into their own! The skillful striker is the guy that gives up the intricacies of trapfinding for better combat abilities, whereas the sorcerous swindler is the rogue that focuses more energies into spellcasting than any other, and pays for it accordingly. They are still compatible, and as such you can still make a paladin-like, pseudo-full BAB half-caster by taking both at the same time.

Anyways, I decided against making the sorcerous swindler lose trapfinding because I think it's paying enough already by losing three sneak attack dice. Coincidentally, it is now even closer to the psychic rogue: a pure sorcerous swindler is pretty much an "arcane rogue". I also decided against giving it enervation because negative levels can kill an enemy, and that goes against the goals I set for the archetype's spell list. You can still UMD a wand of it, of course. :smallwink: