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purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-02-06, 01:07 AM
I'm currently about to roll up a character for the first gestalt game I'm ever going to play in. I'm planning on playing a thri-kreen. Now I grasp the whole two class thing, but I'm having some trouble understanding how LA affects things. The SRD for gestalt really doesn't go very in depth on things.

PhoeKun
2007-02-06, 01:15 AM
As I understand it, the LA goes on one side of the progression, and that's all there is to it. For instance, a 2nd Level Drow Cleric would be -

Drow//Cleric 2.


HD and LA go on the same side. So, in the case of Thri-kreen (which are what? LA +2 and 3 HD?)

Thri-kreen LA2/Thri-kreen HD3//Ranger 5.

Rahdjan
2007-02-06, 01:16 AM
so what 2 classes are you planning on taking? Monk and what else?

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-02-06, 01:18 AM
thanks for the clarification, but I think thri-kreens are a +1 LA. The MM II says they have 2 HD and are an ECL 3.

Edit: I was planning on being a monk/sorc but since the LA thing takes care of one of those, I'll probably just go with monk.

The_Snark
2007-02-06, 01:22 AM
MMII is old; the newer thri-keen, from the Expanded Psionics Handbook and the SRD, are LA +2.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-02-06, 01:30 AM
well I don't have Expanded Psionics or Savage Species (I've heard it's in there too, but I despise the book anyway.) So all I've got to go on is what's in MM II. And the Thri-kreen isn't in the SRD in either the psionic or monster sections. At least not the version I have bookmarked

JaronK
2007-02-06, 01:31 AM
LA and Gestalt have no official rules combining the two. It's simply not in there. There's two options to use, and neither are good.

If you put LA on one side of the Gestalt, it's overpowered... by a lot. Normally in Gestalt you lose something on each side. For example, a Wizard//Swashbuckler loses d4 HD, .333 Fort Save, and 1/2BAB per level (from the Wizard side) and .333 Will Save from the Swashbuckler side. If LA is on one side, nothing at all is lost, and this really adds up.

If you put LA on both sides, it's even weaker than LA normally is (and LA is often very weak already).

So basically, it's either overpowered or underpowered. Using the second option with LA Paydown works pretty well though.

JaronK

The_Snark
2007-02-06, 01:33 AM
well I don't have Expanded Psionics or Savage Species (I've heard it's in there too, but I despise the book anyway.) So all I've got to go on is what's in MM II

SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/), too. Under Psionic Races or Psionic Monsters.

Edit- An imperfect solution I've considered, should I ever end up running a gestalt game myself:

1. LA is halved, but counts for both sides.
2. Racial HD only count for one side.

PhoeKun
2007-02-06, 01:35 AM
LA and Gestalt have no official rules combining the two. It's simply not in there. There's two options to use, and neither are good.

If you put LA on one side of the Gestalt, it's overpowered... by a lot. Normally in Gestalt you lose something on each side. For example, a Wizard//Swashbuckler loses d4 HD, .333 Fort Save, and 1/2BAB per level (from the Wizard side) and .333 Will Save from the Swashbuckler side. If LA is on one side, nothing at all is lost, and this really adds up.

If you put LA on both sides, it's even weaker than LA normally is (and LA is often very weak already).

So basically, it's either overpowered or underpowered. Using the second option with LA Paydown works pretty well though.

JaronK

Er... what!? :smallconfused:

The LA is eating one side of your potential class features. That's a big loss. Especially when compared to the supposed "penalties" in your above example. Gods help the Wizard who loses his d4 hit dice. Whatever shall he do with full BAB? Woe is he!

JaronK
2007-02-06, 01:41 AM
No, seriously. Consider it this way.

Let's compare a Barbarian 6//Fighter 6 to a (non gestalt) Barbarian 6/Fighter 6. The first is a 6th level Gestalt character, the second is a 12th level character. The Gestalt is no where near the strength of the 12th level character... he's down by 6 BAB, 6d10 + 6*Con bonus hitpoints, 3 points of fort save, and 2 points of will and reflex save. He's clearly not as strong as a character twice his level.

Now let's compare a Human Half Dragon 3/Feral 1/Mineral Warrior 1/Dark 1//Barbarian 6 vs. a Half Dragon Feral Mineral Warrior Dark Human Barbarian (yes, I know that's insane, but I'm making a point here). Again, 6th level Gestalt vs 12th level standard character... but notice that these two characters are actually identical. Same BAB, same saves, same everything, with the one exception being that the 12th level character has 2 more feats and 2 more stat raises from levels... and that's it.

By making a character with LA up one side of the equation, you get a gestalt character that's equivalent to a standard character of twice his ECL. That's a serious problem.

In my example above with the Wizard//Swashbuckler, the loss is actuall 1d4+con bonus hit points per level, .5 BAB per level, some saves, and some skill points. In other words, a Wizard 4//Swashbuckler 4, as compared to a Wizard 3/Swashbuckler 3, with a con of 14 and an int of 18. The Gestalt character there has on average 18 fewer HPs, 1 lower Will save, 1 lower Fort Save, 1 Lower Reflex Save, 2 lower BAB, and 24 fewer skills (plus lower max skills). That may have seemed trivial, but over a few levels, it really adds up.

JaronK

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-02-06, 01:45 AM
Snark, you are mistaken the only t lettered psionic monsters are temporal filcher, thought eater and thought slayer. It is not there, I have looked it over several times, and even done a searchs of thri, kreen, thri kreen, and thri-kreen. It's not in the SRD. On top of that, y'all are beginning to confuse me even further instead of helping clear things up.

The_Snark
2007-02-06, 01:54 AM
Hmm. You are correct. I guess it's one of the monsters that got left out of the OGC, like the mind flayer.

And allowing LA to take up only one side of the progression will only mildly benefit spellcasters (except those who choose mind flayer wizards or succubus sorcerers, or some other monster with excellent mental abilities), but as JaronK points out, it makes fightery characters much, much better. Feral Half-dragon Half-troll Goliath on one side, Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker on the other... it all adds up. Basically, you're only missing out on class features, which hurts spellcasters (whose primary power lies in class features) but aids melee characters (who have compensations for reduced class features, like more HP and better BAB).

As an aside, I figured out a gestalt solution to the Frenzied Berserker teamkilling problem. Be a Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker X on one side, and a Telepath 5/Thrallherd 1/Telepath X-1 on the other side. Order your replaceable thralls to stay close, especially in combat. Now you've got a replaceable buffer-zone in between you and your friends. Stay away from Great Cleave and you should be fine. :smallsmile:

PhoeKun
2007-02-06, 01:55 AM
No, seriously. Consider it this way.

Let's compare a Barbarian 6//Fighter 6 to a (non gestalt) Barbarian 6/Fighter 6. The first is a 6th level Gestalt character, the second is a 12th level character. The Gestalt is no where near the strength of the 12th level character... he's down by 6 BAB, 6d10 + 6*Con bonus hitpoints, 3 points of fort save, and 2 points of will and reflex save. He's clearly not as strong as a character twice his level.

Now let's compare a Human Half Dragon 3/Feral 1/Mineral Warrior 1/Dark 1//Barbarian 6 vs. a Half Dragon Feral Mineral Warrior Dark Human Barbarian (yes, I know that's insane, but I'm making a point here). Again, 6th level Gestalt vs 12th level standard character... but notice that these two characters are actually identical. Same BAB, same saves, same everything, with the one exception being that the 12th level character has 2 more feats and 2 more stat raises from levels... and that's it.

By making a character with LA up one side of the equation, you get a gestalt character that's equivalent to a standard character of twice his ECL. That's a serious problem.

In my example above with the Wizard//Swashbuckler, the loss is actuall 1d4+con bonus hit points per level, .5 BAB per level, some saves, and some skill points. In other words, a Wizard 4//Swashbuckler 4, as compared to a Wizard 3/Swashbuckler 3, with a con of 14 and an int of 18. The Gestalt character there has on average 18 fewer HPs, 1 lower Will save, 1 lower Fort Save, 1 Lower Reflex Save, 2 lower BAB, and 24 fewer skills (plus lower max skills). That may have seemed trivial, but over a few levels, it really adds up.

JaronK

I believe you are very mistaken in your understanding of the gestalt system. It is intended to combine the best features of 2 classes into one level, so that smaller parties can manage on their own (or for high powered campaigns). Class X1//ClassY1 is meant to be compared to Class X1 or Class Y1, not ClassX1/ClassY1.

A gestalt Barbarian6//Fighter 6 isn't meant to be the equal of a 12th level character - he is only 6th level.

And that Gestalt Wizard//Swashbuckler? He's two levels lower than his non-Gestalt counterpart: of course he's going to have lower saves...

I understand your point that LA is stronger in gestalt than it is in regular D&D, but LA is so worthless ordinarily that this only makes it usable.

The_Snark
2007-02-06, 01:58 AM
I believe you are very mistaken in your understanding of the gestalt system. It is intended to combine the best features of 2 classes into one level, so that smaller parties can manage on their own (or for high powered campaigns). Class X1//ClassY1 is meant to be compared to Class X1 or Class Y1, not ClassX1/ClassY1.

A gestalt Barbarian6//Fighter 6 isn't meant to be the equal of a 12th level character - he is only 6th level.

That is his point; the gestalt Barbarian/Fighter wasn't equal to the 12th level character. The heavily templated gestalt barbarian actually was.

PhoeKun
2007-02-06, 02:00 AM
I vaguely remember making a second point. That being that LA sucks noodles.

My being tired and misreading posts aside, that alternate point remains valid.

The_Snark
2007-02-06, 02:05 AM
I vaguely remember making a second point. That being that LA sucks noodles.

My being tired and misreading posts aside, that alternate point remains valid.

Yeah... true, mostly. Though melee builds with LA can be decent even without gestalt. (And without being Feral Mineral Warriors, too.)

Thomas
2007-02-06, 02:29 AM
Yeah... true, mostly. Though melee builds with LA can be decent even without gestalt. (And without being Feral Mineral Warriors, too.)

You mean feral mineral warrior Savage Species half-ogres.

The_Snark
2007-02-06, 02:51 AM
You mean feral mineral warrior Savage Species half-ogres.

There's a more recent version of the half-ogre, though, with +2 LA, so it's tough to get away with that one.

Zincorium
2007-02-06, 03:59 AM
That is his point; the gestalt Barbarian/Fighter wasn't equal to the 12th level character. The heavily templated gestalt barbarian actually was.

Wait, you mean if I take the most broken templates for a melee character available, and then compare it to an extremely poor gestalt combination, I'm gonna be way more powerful? Jumpin' Jehosephats, I had no idea.

Seriously, there are very few LA races that end up being worth even half the progression in terms of lost caster levels or class features, and taking them only on one side removes the problem of dividing it in half, since many of them are odd numbers. Don't only take the most broken, unreasonable combination and set that out as a typical example of how it works.

Ikkitosen
2007-02-06, 04:40 AM
Don't only take the most broken, unreasonable combination and set that out as a typical example of how it works.

Not a typical example, but the extreme one - the type one should refer to when balancing things.

"Typical" players will rarely be a problem, but one "extreme" player in a normal game, taking advantage of the rules as pointed out here, sets the power level for the game, not his normal buddies.

Zincorium
2007-02-06, 05:28 AM
Not a typical example, but the extreme one - the type one should refer to when balancing things.

"Typical" players will rarely be a problem, but one "extreme" player in a normal game, taking advantage of the rules as pointed out here, sets the power level for the game, not his normal buddies.

So everything should be balanced against the various overpowered builds? That's completely unworkable. Feral and Mineral warrior are dramatically overpowered and shouldn't be allowed in a campaign at their LA, if at all, any more than you should allow the worst of the divine metamagic cheese unrestricted.

Case-by-case judging is an absolute neccessity for a competent DM.

Ikkitosen
2007-02-06, 05:33 AM
So everything should be balanced against the various overpowered builds? That's completely unworkable. Feral and Mineral warrior are dramatically overpowered and shouldn't be allowed in a campaign at their LA, if at all, any more than you should allow the worst of the divine metamagic cheese unrestricted.

Case-by-case judging is an absolute neccessity for a competent DM.

Unfortunately, especially in PbP games where you may not end up even playing, not many DMs have the time/desire to answer lots of questions about each character. It is necessary for the rules already in place to allow you to create balanced characters, with as little as possible chance for character power imbalance.

You can write whatever you want into the RAW with the caveat "If your DM allows it", and indeed that is the fallback position of games developers that lack playtesting ability and foresight (see WotC), but it is not something one should rely upon.

Whamme
2007-02-06, 05:34 AM
Halving LA seems most fair. It IS possible to have worthwhile level adjusted characters - probably not casters, but possibly.

Incidently, consider the Ghost Sorceror. Possibly too strong for a level 5 Gestalt game, even with the d4 hit die.

Zincorium
2007-02-06, 05:43 AM
Unfortunately, especially in PbP games where you may not end up even playing, not many DMs have the time/desire to answer lots of questions about each character. It is necessary for the rules already in place to allow you to create balanced characters, with as little as possible chance for character power imbalance.


That's not the case even when not playing gestalt. The rules that WotC has created are dramatically imbalanced even between core classes. Gestalt can exacerbate the situation, but it by no means creates it. And if the DM is too lazy to at least look at the character sheet of each player and make sure it's workable, then they have no right to complain when something is broken. You have to at least make an attempt.



You can write whatever you want into the RAW with the caveat "If your DM allows it", and indeed that is the fallback position of games developers that lack playtesting ability and foresight (see WotC), but it is not something one should rely upon.

Sigh. My main point was that it's a very, very biased comparison between the overly templated first example and the very poorly made second example. Like I said, the first takes the most broken, 'best cheese for your LA' templates that work for a melee type and combined them all, whereas the second takes fighter as a secondary, which adds feats and that's IT to the build. They are not in the same category, period.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-06, 05:57 AM
Just put LA on one side if you are DMing and you want your players to play monstrous characters, just forbid LA otherwise ... anyone silly enough to take LA to both sides of a gestalt needs to be protected against himself, gestalt is high powered and with LA to both sides the only thing you can make is gimps.

daggaz
2007-02-06, 08:04 AM
Core for the Win!!!

Rigeld2
2007-02-06, 08:44 AM
Wait, you mean if I take the most broken templates for a melee character available, and then compare it to an extremely poor gestalt combination, I'm gonna be way more powerful? Jumpin' Jehosephats, I had no idea.
Buh?

He compared Templates+6 class levels of Gestalt (ECL6) to Templates+6 class levels normal (ECL12). The only difference was 2 feats and 2 stat points (and I'm not sure hes correct on those - you get those based on HD, of which he only has 6, so theyd be the same). So, a level 6 character is exactly as powerful as a level 12 character... gestalt isnt supposed to work like that.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-06, 09:32 AM
Don't forget that Racial HD and all other items get compared to the other class for the purpose of determining your character's advancement and don't stack.

So if your character has 3d8 HD and a +3 BAB from his monster race and combines it with Fighter 5, he's only got 5d10 HD and a +5 BAB. Just like a normal class, monster HD and BAB don't stack in Gestalt. Or at least, that's always the way I've read it so that ECL characters are an option, not a benefit or a hindrance.

Rigeld2
2007-02-06, 09:55 AM
Right... but LA doesnt have any HD or BAB. So you do nothing but gain.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-06, 11:15 AM
The way I've done it in the past is, LA gets subtracted from both sides (ie gestalt level 8, with +2 LA is ecl 10, still), but Racial Hit Dice can be taken on only one side (because RHD are essentially levels of bugbear, or whatever). One other thing I've allowed, is using a monster class on one side of the gestalt.

Now, I agree that this is probably a bad solution, but I don't think there is a really good one. If you just take LA from only one side, it's too strong - but if you take it from both, it's even more sucky than it normally is. So you have to start thinking about taking it from both sides, but somehow reducing the LA, which is complicated and messy.

Of course, I also think there's a big difference between taking Thri-Kreen on only one side of the gestalt, and taking 18 different +1 templates. Especially templates that many people think are too good for a +1 in regular play, let along gestalt :smallbiggrin:

Piccamo
2007-02-06, 11:20 AM
There are several LA races that have been turned into a level progression on the Wizards website (I'd link to them, but cannot access that site from work); you could use one of these on one side and regular progression on the other.

Ikkitosen
2007-02-06, 11:44 AM
LA for both sides but monster HD for one sounds like the best compromise so far. It also changes the emphasis from the usual LA-but-no-racial-HD choices (tiny, weak but magical races like mephits and pixies) to low-LA-with-racial-HD (ogres and such). A nice change of focus.

Piccamo
2007-02-06, 11:45 AM
How is one any better than the other?

PinkysBrain
2007-02-06, 12:03 PM
LA to both sides is just a plain bad idea, unless you have some way to buy it back. Loosing the ability to get to your highest level class abilities is a very bad thing in a non gestalt game ... loosing the ability to get your highest level class abilities TWICE is completely and utterly gimped (twice as bad).

If I didn't want to put LA on only one side, but still wanted to make monstrous characters playable I'd institute some type of more agressive LA buyback AND let you take LA truely to both sides (ie. 2 LAs at one level).

So if you were to play a human werewolf sorcerer//something it would go like this :

1. LA//LA
2. LA//RHD
3. sorcerer//RHD
4. sorcerer//sorcerer
5. sorcerer//sorcerer
6. rest like normal.

Effectively LA would be cut in half (only fair since levels are so much stronger) and you can buyback LA quickly by sacrificing level slots and the ability to get good BAB/saves/skill combinations at those levels. Even if you don't want to effectively half LA, I'd still allow the buyback ... it's what makes things playable.

Without a quick way to do LA buyback LA will gimp you in gestalt.

JaronK
2007-02-06, 01:15 PM
Sigh. My main point was that it's a very, very biased comparison between the overly templated first example and the very poorly made second example. Like I said, the first takes the most broken, 'best cheese for your LA' templates that work for a melee type and combined them all, whereas the second takes fighter as a secondary, which adds feats and that's IT to the build. They are not in the same category, period.

The point was not the specific templates used. Would you prefer I compare Fighter 3//Barbarian 3 to Fighter 3/Barbarian 3 and Halfdragon 3//Barbarian 3 to Halfdragon Barbarian 3?

The point is exactly the same regardless of which templates you use. In the first case, the character is not as powerful as a character of twice his level. In the second case, with LA on one side, he's just as powerful as a character of twice his level... and that's the point.

And yes, I'm very familiar with the Gestalt system... I play it almost exclusively. LA is very hard to work with in Gestalt. In my games, we just put LA on both sides, but allow LA Paydowns from unearthed arcana, and that works just fine.

JaronK

PhoeKun
2007-02-06, 01:21 PM
Now that I've shut off my Idiot-VisionTM, I can see the point you're trying to make.

However, I feel there is another way to interpret the information you're giving us.

If a Half Dragon/Barbarian 3 (being ECL 6) is as powerful as a 3rd level Gestalt character, something is clearly wrong. But, couldn't that something be that LA is ridiculously underpowered?

JaronK
2007-02-06, 01:29 PM
No, it's just a result of what I said earlier, about how you lose nothing by putting LA on one side of the equation (by the way, in my earlier example, it was supposed to be Wizard 4//Swashbuckler 4 vs Wizard 4/Swashbuckler 4).

Whenever you mash two classes together with gestalt, you lose all the bits that get overridden. Sometimes, this is something pretty small, but sometimes it's quite a lot. Taking an example from another thread that's on the front page right now, some guy wants to play Rogue//Druid. At level 6, he's lost a lot of things by mashing the classes together that a Rogue 6/Druid 6 wouldn't have lost. Specifically, he's lost:

6+5d6+6*con hitpoints
4 BAB
2 Fort Save
2 Will Save
From the Rogue side and

2 Reflex Save
36+9*Int Skill Points
From the Druid side.

That's all very significant... that's all the bits that were overriden by the other class. Druid gives d8 HD, Rogue gives d6 HD, so you lose that D6+Con hit points per level from the rogue side. All of that gets lost.

With LA on one side however, absolutely nothing is lost. You get the full abilities of your class on one side, and the full abilities of the LA on the other. You lose none of the half dragon's strength, for example, since HalfDragon doesn't add hit dice or skill points or saves or anything else that would be lost in that smushing together.

It's that fact that makes LA so strong if it's only on one side of the Gestalt.

JaronK

PhoeKun
2007-02-06, 01:42 PM
I'm sorry, but your word choice is confusing the hell out of me.

Because at level 6, that Druid//Rogue hasn't lost anything, unless he is trying to be a level 12 character, which he isn't.

With non-Gestalt LA, the concept of loss is applicable. LA+4/Class level 4 as a level 8 character has given up 4 hit dice, with all the nifty class features, saves, and BAB that entails.

In Gestalt LA, the character is giving up four levels in an alternate class, which is 4 levels he could be using to cover his other classes weak points, or augment it's strengths, or... the point is, he's giving up 4 level's worth of class features. That's not nothing.

Since you don't have to give up everything to LA when you put it on half a Gestalt build, it becomes viable to do so. It does not make it overpowered, because LA was underpowered to begin with.

So... why are we comparing apples to oranges with this 'gestalt loss' concept? A Half-Dragon//Fighter 3 may be a more powerful alternative than Half-Dragon Fighter 3, but then again, so is Fighter 3//Wizard 3. (and honestly, the latter gestalt build is more powerful than the earlier, level-adjusted one. LA sucks).

JaronK
2007-02-06, 01:52 PM
*sigh*

The point is that the druid 6//rogue 6 loses something *in comparison to a Druid 6/Rogue 6*. And yes, he really has lost things. He does not benefit at all from the rogue's D6+Con hitponts. That thing, which all other rogue 6's have, is lost. All those other things really do vanish. But a person with LA+6//Druid 6 Loses nothing *in comparison to a LA+6 Druid*.

See how that works? In one case, you're as strong as a character of twice your level. In the other, you're not.

You can argue that that's somehow because LA is weak, but that's not why, as I've spelled out. If we use a really powerful LA, we can see this... would it work better if it's a Feral Mineral Warrior? Does it make sense to you that a Feral Mineral Warrior Barbarian 2 (an ECL 4 character) is the same as a Feral Mineral Warrior 2//Barbarian 2 (a character of level 2)? When LA is strong, Zincorium doesn't get it. When it's weak, you don't get it. Ugh!

JaronK

Draz74
2007-02-06, 03:21 PM
If it helps, Jaron, I understand what you're saying. :smallconfused:

PhoeKun: Imagine a perfectly balanced source of LA -- not weak like the Half-Dragon, not overpowered like Feral. Jaron's point still goes.

You're right, a Gestalt character isn't "trying to be" a normal character of twice his level. That's not how Gestalt is supposed to work. JaronK's point is that, if you apply LA to only one side, a character "trying to be double his level" actually works. That's bad -- it means characters with LA are too powerful in Gestalt if you only apply LA to one side.

Applying it to both sides just makes LA even more annoying than in a standard game.

I favor the faction that says to half the LA, then apply it to both sides. (Odd-numbered LA? Well, opinions are divided, but I say round it down.)

PhoeKun
2007-02-06, 03:30 PM
There's not a single example anywhere that I know of a perfectly balanced LA. It either goes stupidly powerful like Feral, or vies for the "worst thing ever" title like Drow.

In a standard game, Level Adjusted characters will almost always fall behind their non-level adjusted counterparts. This shows us that Level Adjustments are weak.

At the very least, I understand the comparison now. But I maintain that applying the LA to one side of the Gestalt is not overpowering. A Gestalt Druid//LA 6 is the equivalent of a non-Gestalt LA +6 Druid 6. Both of those would get stomped into the ground by Druid 12. The gestalt example has not gained the power equivalence of a 12th level character, he only thinks he has.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-06, 04:42 PM
BTW, just because a given way of using LA makes LAd characters stronger than non LAd does not make it a bad rule ... in the standard way of things non LAd are stronger. Imbalance in one direction is no worse than the other.

Gestalt is unique in that per level there is something else the player can give up ... which is to say his second class choice. Not using that in some way to create a more balanced way of playing monstrous characters was silly on the part of WotC IMO. There is plenty of middle ground between LA on one side and full LA on both sides (which makes your characters even worse off with monstrous characters than in non gestalt).

PS. how about this, LA to one side ... but on levels with LA you don't get HD/saves/skills?

Zincorium
2007-02-06, 05:02 PM
*sigh*

The point is that the druid 6//rogue 6 loses something *in comparison to a Druid 6/Rogue 6*. And yes, he really has lost things. He does not benefit at all from the rogue's D6+Con hitponts. That thing, which all other rogue 6's have, is lost. All those other things really do vanish. But a person with LA+6//Druid 6 Loses nothing *in comparison to a LA+6 Druid*.

See how that works? In one case, you're as strong as a character of twice your level. In the other, you're not.

You can argue that that's somehow because LA is weak, but that's not why, as I've spelled out. If we use a really powerful LA, we can see this... would it work better if it's a Feral Mineral Warrior? Does it make sense to you that a Feral Mineral Warrior Barbarian 2 (an ECL 4 character) is the same as a Feral Mineral Warrior 2//Barbarian 2 (a character of level 2)? When LA is strong, Zincorium doesn't get it. When it's weak, you don't get it. Ugh!

JaronK

I. Get. It. I just think it's intentionally misleading. A Barbarian 6//Fighter 6 isn't equal to a 12th level character, or even close, because it's a bad combination. A Wizard 6//Fighter 6 is very close to a wizard 6/fighter 3 non gestalt, a 9th level character, and while a wizard 6//cleric 6 loses some hp and BAB, it still has the casting identical to a 12th level character. On the other hand, a Feral mineral warrior barbarian 6 is something that's as or more powerful than the 12th level character, because it's an overpowered series of templates. Hobgoblin or drow would not have anywhere near the same effect on actual power, a hobgoblin barbarian 1 and a fighter 1//barbarian 1 (to use the same comparison as before, despite my dislike of it) are pretty dang similiar in combat abilities. The fact that a level 1 hobgoblin barbarian is ECL 2 makes it a lot harder for that character.

JaronK
2007-02-06, 08:43 PM
Evidently you Don't. Get. It. The fact that the gestalt examples I'm chosing are either very optimal or sub optimal have Nothing. To. Do. With. It.

Pick your template. I don't care what. But pick a template that you think is balanced, and the problem should be obvious. Personally, I think the Dark template is pretty balanced, but that's besides the point. At least some folks here understand!

But let's be more general. Pick any two classes, X and Y, and a template or combination of templates that gives a Level adjust, call it Z. X6//Y6 is never as powerful as X6/Y6 (you understand this notation, yes? It means the first is a 6th level gestalt character, and the second is a normal 12th level character with two classes, each at level 6). However, if Z takes up 6 levels, X6//Z6 is exactly as powerful as X6/Z6. This is regardless of the power level or effectiveness of either combination.

JaronK

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-06, 10:06 PM
Why does it matter how powerful these things are compared to non-gestalt builds? It seems to me that you're not going to have both gestalts and non-gestalts in the same game. So what matters is, is X6//Z6 more, or less, powerful than X6//Y6. And I think many people would say less, because you lose out on class ablilities.

For instance "Wizard 6//Fighter 6" vs a "Drow 2/Wizard4//Fighter 6." Or, even worse, vs "Drow 2/Wizard 4//Drow 2 Fighter 4"

Whamme
2007-02-06, 10:13 PM
Howabout this (using a real play example):

I have a Half Dragon/Centaur Fighter who is reasonably competitive. He is a level 15 character, including his +5 LA.

As a Gestalt with LA on one side, he would be a level 10 character, and have 5 Gestalt levels with only a single class on them left over for more class abilities.

He would still have the same saves, hit points, and BAB as a character that is a normal rules level 15 character.

The level 10 Gestalt version of him, not even TAKING as second class at half it's levels, is as powerful as a level 15 character, in every way, something that just not would be so if he was 10 levels of one class and 5 of another with the 5 levels of 'other' being Gestalted in (because in THAT case the Gestalt would have lower saves, lower BAB, less skill points, and less HP).

Think about a low level Gestalt game where LA counts as a class feature?

Try the level 3 Half-Dragon Barbarian, or the level 4 Pixie Wizard...

JaronK
2007-02-06, 10:52 PM
Why does it matter how powerful these things are compared to non-gestalt builds? It seems to me that you're not going to have both gestalts and non-gestalts in the same game. So what matters is, is X6//Z6 more, or less, powerful than X6//Y6. And I think many people would say less, because you lose out on class ablilities.

For instance "Wizard 6//Fighter 6" vs a "Drow 2/Wizard4//Fighter 6." Or, even worse, vs "Drow 2/Wizard 4//Drow 2 Fighter 4"

It matters because the adjustment for gestalt is that every critter has one lower CR, two lower if they have a lot of save based attacks. Basically, Gestalts are supposed to be about as strong as someone 1-2 levels higher than them... they're a lot more flexible, but not that much stronger, due to having the same hitpoints and actions per round (usually) as regular characters. Being twice as strong is a lot more than being 1-2 levels stronger.

JaronK

PinkysBrain
2007-02-07, 01:08 AM
Pick your template. I don't care what. But pick a template that you think is balanced, and the problem should be obvious. Personally, I think the Dark template is pretty balanced, but that's besides the point. At least some folks here understand!
Even if we assume for a moment a template is balanced for non gestalt, the moment you play gestalt you loose access to your highest level class abilities in two rather than one class if you take LA to both sides (presuming good classes with good scaling class abilities). If it was balanced in non gestalt it would become underpowered in gestalt.

The benefit of taking 1 LA stays the same in gestalt, but the benefits of taking class levels increases.

Zincorium
2007-02-07, 05:13 AM
Evidently you Don't. Get. It. The fact that the gestalt examples I'm chosing are either very optimal or sub optimal have Nothing. To. Do. With. It.

Pick your template. I don't care what. But pick a template that you think is balanced, and the problem should be obvious. Personally, I think the Dark template is pretty balanced, but that's besides the point. At least some folks here understand!

But let's be more general. Pick any two classes, X and Y, and a template or combination of templates that gives a Level adjust, call it Z. X6//Y6 is never as powerful as X6/Y6 (you understand this notation, yes? It means the first is a 6th level gestalt character, and the second is a normal 12th level character with two classes, each at level 6). However, if Z takes up 6 levels, X6//Z6 is exactly as powerful as X6/Z6. This is regardless of the power level or effectiveness of either combination.

JaronK

Wait, so the power of the respective choices makes no difference to the claim that using LA as one side is overpowered? I sure as heck do not think the same way that you do. That LA is supposedly equal to class levels is not something I agree is factually true. It's with a few exceptions worse, and almost gimps your character with most builds that require things like BAB and casting level. What I'm taking issue with is not the opinion shown, but the blatant biasing of one example as compared to the next. As I pointed out above, a gestalt composed of complementary classes can get very close in power to double the ECL as an evenly multiclassed character.

Basically, in the terms you've decided I'm going to use, I do not consider X6/Y6 and X6/Z6 equal. That X6//Z6 is equal to X6/Z6 is something I'm advocating, not arguing against. A Half dragon 3//Wizard 3 is not significantly, in my mind, more powerful in play than a Duskblade 3//wizard 3. And a half dragon 3/wizard 3 is a very poor character choice compared to a duskblade 3/wizard 3 as far as I can see.

Edit: And seriously, don't keep saying I don't get it, it's incredibly rude. I understand your position fully, that a character with LA on one side of gestalt is technically the same as a non gestalt character with free LA. That's not hard to get. I keep saying the examples biased because the templated gestalt uses the most powerful options available, and the regular gestalt uses the least powerful option available, and I think that gives a distinctly one sided view of the situation to anyone reading. The basic premise is, again, not what I'm arguing against, although I do disagree with it.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-07, 03:32 PM
It matters because the adjustment for gestalt is that every critter has one lower CR, two lower if they have a lot of save based attacks. Basically, Gestalts are supposed to be about as strong as someone 1-2 levels higher than them... they're a lot more flexible, but not that much stronger, due to having the same hitpoints and actions per round (usually) as regular characters. Being twice as strong is a lot more than being 1-2 levels stronger.
JaronKOk, I see your point, but at the same time, subtracting the level adjustment from both sides suddenly makes you a lot less than 1-2 levels stronger. Being too weak for the adjusted CR is just as much of a problem as being too strong. For instance in your X6//Y6 vs X6/Y6 vs X6//Z6 example, if you take LA from BOTH sides you suddenly have X6/Z6, and a gestalt character with no levels at all.

The gestalt is also only "twice as strong" if you're taking an LA that eats up one entire side of your gestalt. For instance LA1/class7//Class 8 is not twice as strong as LA1/Class 7. It's much closer to the power of a regular 8//8 gestalt. A 7//7 gestalt with +1 LA on each side would be a lot weaker.

Plus, CR is very spotty as it is. When you start doing weird things like Gestalt, you're GOING to have to do some on-the fly adjustment, because there are suddenly a lot more variables. Some parties are going to have more powerful gestalt builds, and will handle "appropriate" CRs much more easily than others. I guess what I'm trying to say is, your argument that "putting LA on only one side would throw off the CR system!" doesn't convince me, because using gestalt already throws off the CR system - which has problems without Gestalt. The -1 or 2 CR guideline is going to help, but it's not infallible.

Edit: added X6//Z6 example. JaronK, how do you feel about adding the LA to both sides, but reducing it by up to half? So you'd have a regular Z6/X3/Y3 vs a gestalt Z3/X3//Z3/Y3?

JaronK
2007-02-07, 05:33 PM
Yes Zin, the first scentance was correct. Think about it. We're talking about adding LA in general being much stronger than normal when you add it to only one side. You're then saying "but in specific cases, LA is really weak." That's totally irrelevant.

And, by the way, I challenge you to find a 4th level gestalt melee character that's anywhere near the power level level of a well built fighter 8... let's say he's human, and he took the feats Power Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Exotic Weapon Prof: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Shock Trooper, and Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain. Basically, make a fourth level gestalt that's as good in melee as that 8th level character. You'll find that you probably can't do it, because gestalts aren't supposed to be twice as good as a regular character... unless you take LA on one side. Meanwhile, I'd argue that a gestalt Ferral Mineral Warrior Draconic Human Barbarian 1//Fighter 4 is probably about as good. He can likely trip as well, hit harder due to incredible strength, and with his insane defenses he can do great. Sure, that's particularly strong set of Templates, but we should always make rulings on what's overpowered based on the strongest way you can use them.

But for Spider, yes, I did say earlier on that subtracting LA from both sides is overly weak. That's the issue here, one is too strong, and one is too weak. Thus, a middle ground is needed. What that middle ground is is entirely up to the individual DM. I prefer saying that LA takes up both sides, but you can do LA Paydowns. Some people prefer halving the LA on both sides, some people just lower all LAs by some amount, whatever. It's all going to be tricky.

JaronK

Zincorium
2007-02-07, 05:48 PM
Yes Zin, the first scentance was correct. Think about it. We're talking about adding LA in general being much stronger than normal when you add it to only one side. You're then saying "but in specific cases, LA is really weak." That's totally irrelevant.

And, by the way, I challenge you to find a 4th level gestalt melee character that's anywhere near the power level level of a well built fighter 8... let's say he's human, and he took the feats Power Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Exotic Weapon Prof: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Shock Trooper, and Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain. Basically, make a fourth level gestalt that's as good in melee as that 8th level character. You'll find that you probably can't do it, because gestalts aren't supposed to be twice as good as a regular character... unless you take LA on one side. Meanwhile, I'd argue that a gestalt Ferral Mineral Warrior Draconic Human Barbarian 1//Fighter 4 is probably about as good. He can likely trip as well, hit harder due to incredible strength, and with his insane defenses he can do great. Sure, that's particularly strong set of Templates, but we should always make rulings on what's overpowered based on the strongest way you can use them.

Read back, I've already talked about exactly what you're saying in this last sentence. Judging everything based on the strongest possible options with all cheese available means no one is going to be playing casters of any stripe, because they can all be overpowered if you include enough borderline 3.0 splatbooks without oversight. You have to pick an option that works with what the people in your campaign are going to be using, and then make sure they stay within the spirit of it. IF all the melee characters are going to pick feral or mineral warrior, yeah, it's way overpowered, but if they choose any of the races with LA (drow, hobgoblin, planetouched, duergar, dromite, blue, etc.) then it's probably going to leave them with a similiar power level, and thus is completely workable. You don't ban clerics, you ban the use of divine metamagic.



But for Spider, yes, I did say earlier on that subtracting LA from both sides is overly weak. That's the issue here, one is too strong, and one is too weak. Thus, a middle ground is needed. What that middle ground is is entirely up to the individual DM. I prefer saying that LA takes up both sides, but you can do LA Paydowns. Some people prefer halving the LA on both sides, some people just lower all LAs by some amount, whatever. It's all going to be tricky.

JaronK

Just one, very last thing, and I'm gonna leave this thread for good before I start swearing at my computer. I have played a gestalt game for 17 levels. I had fun. I was using a LA race (gray orc) and my DM allowed me to use it on only one side. Looking back, I wouldn't mind swapping it out for another class level still. Class levels are for the most part better than stat gains or supernatural abilities, if only because they let you go on to the next level of power. Sure, delaying getting level 2 spells for a level 3 equivalent ability seems fine at the beginning, but it's a serious crimp in your style when you're 6000 experience points away from getting your first ninth level spell, you need it right now, and if it wasn't for the delay you'd already have it.

JaronK
2007-02-07, 09:27 PM
You know, if the people who made Divine Metamagic had thought "what's the most powerful thing you could do with this?" and balanced the feat accordingly, it probably wouldn't have been created at all. They didn't though, they thought as you do. They figured you should judge balance based on the strongest possible options, and now players can run around with Divine Persistant cheese.

ALWAYS balance based on the most powerful possibility. Always.

JaronK