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Wereling
2007-02-08, 12:23 PM
So, I've been playing with the idea of a Monk/Rogue crossclass. Basically, I'd start out the character with 4 levels in Monk (ki strike magic, good saves, 1d8 unarmed damage, WIS to AC, a bunch of other cool stuff), and then abandon Monk entirely and finish out in Rogue (maybe with a dash of shadowdancer thrown in). I realize that some of the abilities duplicate themselves, but I really like the idea of a spy/assassin that doesn't NEED to carry a weapon, and the prospect of Stunning Fist and sneak attack is just too good to pass up.

Has anyone tried something similar?

Skyserpent
2007-02-08, 12:34 PM
Ascetic Thief, Complete Adventurer, a feat that allows Monk and Rogue levels to stack for the purpose of stunning fist and other things, I think Sneak Attack but I'd have to check. It's perfect for your build.

Ramza00
2007-02-08, 12:55 PM
I would go up to Monk 6 for the extra bonus feat and then do Rogue, you should be fine.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-08, 01:06 PM
Ascetic Thief, Complete Adventurer, a feat that allows Monk and Rogue levels to stack for the purpose of stunning fist and other things, I think Sneak Attack but I'd have to check. It's perfect for your build.

I think ascetic rogue allows your rogue & monk levels to stack for the purposes of determining unarmed damage. It also provides a bonus to stuns combined with sneak attacks.

The problem with a 1 level shadowdancer dip is that it doesn't increase your BAB. Level 2 gives you evasion and uncanny dodge which you already have. I think monk 4/rogue 16 would be quite good on its own. You could also do monk 4/rogue 12/thief-acrobat 4 and take superior unarmed strike or a monk's belt to get that unarmed damage up to full. Notice that I like to stick to multiples of 4 when dealing with 3/4 BAB classes.

Edit: I forgot to discuss feats. I don't think the level 6 monk feats are worth going for unless you have a high strength. But at level 2 you can take combat reflexes. This will help out for when you get opportunist at rogue 10. You can pour on deft opportunist and combat tactician (or whatever it's called, the one where every time you hit a foe with an attack of opportunity all your allies get bonuses) to really make those attacks of opportunity count.

Telonius
2007-02-08, 01:07 PM
If you're going Monk 6, you might as well go Monk 7. Otherwise you'd be a Monk6/Rogue 14. Rogue 14 just gives you four more skill points and a reflex save bump. Monk7 gives you Wholeness of Body.

Person_Man
2007-02-08, 01:14 PM
There are two feats, Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Master (Champions of Valor or Dragon Magazine - Carmendine Monk is slightly stronger, but its Forgotten Realms specific). Either will switch your Monk Wis bonuses to Int.

A high Int Monk can do everything a Rogue can do except Trapfinding. You won't get Sneak Attack, but Sneak Attack is really the poorest way to deal damage in D&D (compared to Power Attack, spells, and psionics). But you will get a boatload of Stunning Fist uses, extra Flurry attacks, super fast movement, higher saves, and all sorts of immunities.

So my advice is to be a strait Monk. Take one of the feats to switch your Wis bonuses to Int. Dump Wis and Cha, pump Int and Dex. There are plenty of cool Stunning feats. Roleplay the sneaky part.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-08, 01:33 PM
Well I don't have the books/magazines that Person_Man refers to, and I'm a fan of the monk/rogue build. I've been thinking about it for a while, so let me put it all together:

Human monk 4/rogue 16

H1-Dodge
1-Mobility
M1-Improved Unarmed Strike
M1-Stunning Fist
M2-Combat Reflexes
3-Ability Focus Stunning Fist
6-Ascetic Rogue
9-Elusive Target (you're gonna be flanked/flanking alot) or Spring Attack (darting in and out of the shadows to sneak/stun)
12-Improved Unarmed Strike
(14/rogue 10 - opportunist)
15-Deft Opportunist
(17/rogue 13 - improved evasion)
18-Possibilities: Rapid Stunning, Spring Attack if not taken at 9th, Superior Unarmed Strike if a monk's belt is not worn
(20/rogue 16 - crippling strike)

Wereling
2007-02-08, 01:52 PM
I hadn't remebered the Ascetic Rogue feat. I'll take a look at it when I get home (Comp. Adv. is one of the few splatbooks I actually OWN, so that works well.).

6/7 levels of Monk is really farther than I'd rather go. I'd get Wholeness of Body, but miss out on some of the higher level Rogue abilities, which I think I'd rather have. I'm not sure Improved Evasion would be worth it (my ref. saveis going to be ridiculously good anyway, I suspect, and I already have Evasion), but Slippery Mind could be interesting.

Carmendine Monk is an interesting idea, but i don't think I want to burn the feat on it, and I'd rather go with a Rogue crossclass anyhow for the fluff. I'm not so sure about it being less efficient, though I suppose against UNdead/Costructs/Oozes it would be less effective.

Mostly I was thinking about a 1-level dip into Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight, just because I thought it would be kind of neat to just be able to dissapear.

clericwithnogod
2007-02-08, 01:53 PM
Breaking at 4 is probably your best bet because of the rounding effect. Though, you can mix in some Swashbuckler with your Rogue, taking the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel (Rogue and Swashbuckler levels stack for grace, dodge bonus, sneak attack) to get back some BAB, Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat and a probable damage bonus from Insightful Strike.

Person_Man
2007-02-08, 03:05 PM
Mostly I was thinking about a 1-level dip into Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight, just because I thought it would be kind of neat to just be able to dissapear.

Just buy a Ring of Invisibility. It's a standard action to use, just like Hide in Plain Sight. It's relatively cheap. And its mechanically better.

Torger
2007-02-08, 03:17 PM
Unless you're up against things that can See Invisibility.

But, we all know that high level creatures can never see invisibility.

Person_Man
2007-02-08, 04:52 PM
Unless you're up against things that can See Invisibility.

But, we all know that high level creatures can never see invisibility.

First, its rare that he'd ever need to Hide during combat. If he's in danger of getting killed, he can just run and/or Tumble away quite quickly (Monk's get Fast Movement). I assume he won't be playing alone, so combat doesn't just end when he Hides in Plain Sight. It keeps going, and the Shadowdancer just wasted a round doing nothing but removing himself from combat. Maybe next round he can Sneak Attack someone (for a few extra dice of damage - remember, it's a multi-class build) but in most cases he'd probably just be better off making two full attacks.

Second, most monsters won't be able to See Invisible. Even if 1/3 of them did, its silly to waste a class level plus the suboptimal Feats and Skills needed to take a level of Shadowdancer in order to get access to an ability that you might use once every third combat, where the end result is that nothing happens. It's far better to spend your feats and class levels on getting abilities that actually win combat for your team, instead of abilities that make it marginally easier for you to disappear during combat.

Third, there are a variety of other magic items that can Teleport or Dimension Door him away, or otherwise create cover or concealment (the requirements to Hide) like an Eversmoking Bottle or Robe of Scintillating Colors.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 05:06 PM
Monk/Rogue/Assassin is better than Monk/Rogue, especially with Carmendine Monk, because you get those nifty, nifty Assassin spells (which are all the more nifty if you have the Spell Compendium)

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-08, 05:10 PM
Just pray for Fractional BAB.

Hey... I wonder how well adding Enlightened Fist to that would work?

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 05:12 PM
Depends. I don't recall what the Enl. Fist's primary abilities are beyond Hold Ray, and I'm AFB.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-08, 05:14 PM
Arcane Fist at level 3 or 4, add energy damage. A benefit is that if your EF + Assassin levels = 10, your Assassin CL goes above 10. Doesn't help spells/day, but CL is good. Rogue 3/Monk 2/Assassin 8/EF 7 gets HIPS, Hold Ray (not that it helps), CL 15, 7d6 sneak attack total.

Since Assassins have no rays, Enlightened Fist does nothing, I guess. Replace EF 7 with Arcane Trickster 7.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 05:23 PM
Monk 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 8/Magical Trickster 2/Jade Phoenix Adept 10? Sure, you'll need to Martial Study your way in, but it'd be fun.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-08, 05:30 PM
...what's the point of JPM? (Setting aside the alignment conflict aside.) Sneak attack and skill points will help more than the maneuvers you get, I think.
Rogue 1/Swordsage 4/Assassin 9/Sworsage +6, though, gets Evasion, assassin casting, Hide/MS, enough skill points to be the party trapmonkey, INT to AC with Carmendine Monk, DEX to damage, and an 8th level maneuver as well as some 6th and 7th level ones (like Stalker in the Night, which goes very well with HIPS).

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 05:53 PM
JPM gets spell conversion abilities for some extra d10s of damage. It's like Arcane Strike on crack.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-08, 06:38 PM
It's different from Arcane Strike--it eats a swift action, and only applies to one attack. It's better in conjunction with Strikes, but worse for regular melee.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 06:49 PM
Right, but if you're Spring Attacking a Death Attack, you only get one swing anyway. Might as well burn an Assassin 4 slot and get +4/+4d10, in addition to your +Xd6 SA.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-08, 06:50 PM
Eh--if you're doing that, might as well use a Boost and some useful Strike on the attack.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 06:58 PM
True, true. What about Monk 2/Rogue 3/Warblade 5/Assassin 10 with Carmendine Monk then? You'll lose out on some CLs, but get a better BAB, incredible INT synergy, and a metric ton of maneuvers...in particular, Iron Heart.

Wereling
2007-02-09, 09:49 AM
So, i've had a chance to look at it, and I think the Ascetic Rogue thing will work wonderfully. As for Carmendine Monk/Assassin, that's not going to happen (largely because Ihardly ever play evil characters). Thank you all for your input.

Darrin
2007-02-09, 10:10 AM
True, true. What about Monk 2/Rogue 3/Warblade 5/Assassin 10 with Carmendine Monk then? You'll lose out on some CLs, but get a better BAB, incredible INT synergy, and a metric ton of maneuvers...in particular, Iron Heart.

Adding 3 levels of Swashbuckler would make more sense than Assassin, this would add INT to all your damage.

Monk 2/Rogue 3/Swash 3/Warblade 9 would add double INT damage when flanking/sneaking/etc.

One slight problem with Warblade is it doesn't have direct access to Island of Blades (flank with any adjacent ally), Assassin's Stance (+2d6 sneak), or Shadow Blade (add DEX to damage). As BWL suggests, going with SwordSage gives you more maneuvers, skill points, and is more sneak-friendly. Kinda hoses your BAB a bit, but the "We're Sorry Weapon Focus Sucks, Here's A Fix" ability helps a little with that.

silvermesh
2007-02-09, 10:22 AM
The Carmendine Monk thing is just as useful for a straight up monk/rogue as any of those other builds. it brings the number of good stats you need down by one. a high INT rogue has a crap-ton of skill points. This is ALWAYS a good thing.

I like the idea of the lower level in monk, just because if you take more monk it starts being addictive and you start playing like you're a monk (always fighting unarmed, etc.). Monk gives you proficiency in some cool weapons, which almost never get used by high level monks, due to the fact that their damage is so much better unarmed.

as far as the usefulness of shadowdancer, really that depends on the campaign. To say that a ring of invisibility or any other "alternative method" that doesn't involve hiding is just as useful is a bit silly. Sometimes an ability is cool even if it doesn't let you kill everything in sight easier. some DMs like to run campaigns that aren't just weekly meat grinders for experience.