Roleplaying Stats you just can't dump [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Amidus Drexel

2014-04-21, 12:20 PM

I break it down like this:

Str - Useful for melee attack and damage, and a few skills (jump and swim, mostly), so not useful at all on a lot of builds. Easily dumpable.
Dex - Ranged attack, AC (including touch AC), reflex saves, initiative, some useful skills (mostly tumble). Very hard to dump.
Con - Health, fortitude saves, and one useful skill (concentration). Very hard to dump.
Int - Skill points, casting stat, a decent amount of good skills (knowledge, search, forgery, etc). Can be hard to dump, but it's highly build-dependent.
Wis - Will saves, casting stat, some very useful skills (spot/listen). Moderately difficult to dump, but it's fairly build-dependent.
Cha - Casting stat, lots of really good skills (intimidate, bluff, diplomacy, etc), and a ton of class features. Very easy or very hard to dump depending on the build.

I very rarely dump Con or Dex. It might not be an immediate priority for the character, but unless I'm purposefully trying to make a character frail or clumsy, their mods tend to be at least +0.

The other four scores can be as low as needed. I don't care about them that much. :smalltongue:

squiggit

2014-04-21, 12:23 PM

For 3.5...
I tend to not like dumping any mental stats, but that might just be some conditioning left over from a DM I played with for a few years who tended to take stat dumping really seriously (insisting you roleplay 9 int character as a blithering idiot or with severe mental handicap, a 9 cha character being physically attacked by people when he speaks because he's so uncouth and foul and poor mannered, etc).

Even ignoring that, skill points and will saves make it hard for me to justify dumping int or wis. Dumping con, as said above, is a really bad idea, but I've done it a couple times for fun on characters to see how I could do with an ultra squishy character.

Part of my problem with int is that the characters who can, theoretically, best afford to dump int end up having so few skill points that it makes it doubly punishing. Taking an int penalty on a fighter or barbarian just seems to really stifle what they can do when they aren't fighting, which already isn't much.

4e's 'one of two' mechanic for fort/ref/will makes it a lot easier for me to justify some of those choices though.

erikun

2014-04-21, 12:37 PM

I tend to prefer better than average Constitution/Endurance on my characters. Even when there isn't a mechanical benefit for doing so, I still prefer to have above-average heartiness. About the only time this doesn't happen is when Health gets tied into Strength, because then the system is generally simplified down to "good physical or good mental stats?"

Other than that, I tend to prefer my mental stats. I tend to think a lot and be aware of what's going on in the game, and I prefer when my character can puzzle stuff out and be aware of what's going on in the game as well. :smalltongue: Plus, having a side of magic is something I generally like as an option.

Seto

2014-04-21, 12:56 PM

Hm... I really don't like to dump Charisma. I did it once, and it was fun (my character was a socially inept Lizardfolk Ranger who had lived in the woods since... ever), but I like to have charismatic characters despite the fact that I'm not a very charismatic person. Or because I'm not a very charismatic person. For some reason, characters with high CHA are those who have the most epic aura in my eyes.

Otherwise, I try to have decent CON for obvious reasons, and at least average DEX. The others stats I could dump. But I usually don't ; I arrange for most of my characters to have average WIS and INT. As for STR... I don't dump it per se, but as I use Weapon Finesse a lot (and figure out others ways to deal damage), that's what I'm the most likely to dump.

Tl;dr : I don't dump. But if I did, I wouldn't dump CHA (or I would but I'd dislike it), CON or DEX.

Jay R

2014-04-21, 03:31 PM

I can't dump Intelligence. I just can't bring myself to play stupidly.

But there is one exception. A character in TOON ought to dump INT (Smarts, actually), based on a specific rule. If you try to do something clearly impossible (like an elephant going through a mousehole), you roll on your Smarts. If you fail the roll, you are too stupid to realize that it's impossible, so you succeed.

imaloony

2014-04-21, 03:36 PM

I find it hard to ever give myself a low Dex, even on heavily armored characters. I usually like to have whatever dex modifier to AC that I can have. Recently I picked up a Paladin and it broke my heart to give him a 10 Dex (Point-Buy system), but I just couldn't see myself putting more into it. Need that Cha and Con, ya know?

And I'm with everyone else on the Con situation: Every character needs Con to some extent.

The Insanity

2014-04-21, 04:10 PM

I don't like to dump Appearance.

AuraTwilight

2014-04-21, 05:09 PM

Usually either STR or DEX, but it depends on the character.

Raimun

2014-04-21, 06:26 PM

Let's see...

Strength: I like melee combat so this is usually a priority. Also, let's you carry stuff, which is really useful, unless you are a character in Final Fantasy or Sam and Max.
Dexterity: Some Dex-builds are really cool and powerful but I don't play those that often. Most often, 10 suffices.
Constitution: No build works if you are dead. Plus-modifier is pretty much a must. Most often, I try to have at least 14.
Intelligence: This too is usually at least 10 or so. Minus really hurts your options outside combat and I don't usually like to play someone with low intelligence.
Wisdom: This can vary a lot. Sometimes I have a minus, sometimes average but I've had many, many times a very high Wis.
Charisma: Now days, I like to keep this high, even if it doesn't always make sense for everyone. I think I've even played at least a couple Barbarians with +2 Cha-modifier and social and/or musical skills. :smalltongue:

It really depends on the character, really. All stats have their uses but not all of those uses are that useful to all kinds of characters.

However, I think I've never had a character with Str- or Con-modifier of 0 or less. Every other stat has been at 0 or less. I guess you can't be much of an adventurer if you can't carry more than a half full bottle of water and you have asthma and osteoporosis.

Xefas

2014-04-21, 06:56 PM

In the Dresden Files, Athletics and Scholarship are so widely useful catch-all skills that I just can't bring myself to dump them completely. Like, is it a physical action that doesn't involve attacking someone or lifting something heavy? Probably Athletics. Including defending against all physical threats (unless you have a stunt that lets you substitute something else in certain situations). Do you need to know about something non-magical? Math? Science? History? Basic Computer Literacy? Scholarship! If you have a +0 Scholarship, you're that old lady who's using Internet Explorer with eighteen search bars appended to the top.

I don't like to dump Appearance.

I don't think I've ever made an Exalted character with <3 Appearance, to be honest. So, have to agree.

Pex

2014-04-21, 07:43 PM

Constitution

Must have "Adventurer's Tax" of at least a 14. If I must, must have lower, there's something wonky about the character creation process I'm not liking that I have to lump.

Any other ability score can be dumped depending on character. Unlike most players, perhaps, I can easily and have dumped Dexterity. I've played with an 8 DX once but minimum 10 is fine and preferred.

KnotKnormal

2014-04-21, 07:46 PM

I've never been able to dump dex con or int. And I usually dump wis before anything else, unless of course I need the spot checks.

TheCountAlucard

2014-04-21, 11:29 PM

I never dump Intelligence in 3.5, not because I can't or won't play a stupid character; it's mostly because I almost always PrC out of whatever class I'm in, and most PrCs require a decent skill investment, which an INT 3 character won't be able to make.

In Exalted 2e, nobody ever dumps Dexterity and lives. :smalltongue: The lowest I've ever played with, Dexterity-wise, is 4 (out of a possible 5).

Sartharina

2014-04-22, 12:18 AM

I can't bring myself to dump Charisma. I absolutely must be one of the best-looking and influential people in any party. INT can go as low as possible. WIS is the most fun to dump (Despite its use as a stat).

Also can't dump any physical stat, because those are needed to look Good.

~xFellWardenx~

2014-04-22, 12:41 AM

I'm the weirdo who dumps Int and couldn't for the life of me dump Wis. I'm really stupid IRL but I match the description the book gives for high Wis very well. I sometimes struggle to make my characters benefit from high Wisdom even when they normally don't just so I can have an excuse for the score.

Erik Vale

2014-04-22, 12:46 AM

Con and Int. Everything else can suffer to various amounts, but I like to have 14s in both of those, not that that always happens.

Jeff the Green

2014-04-22, 06:25 AM

Yeah, Intelligence for me too. I also can't dump any Knowledges if it's at all possible to avoid. I just went from playing an archivist with every Knowledge maxed out, a couple magic items, and lore of the gods on most of the time to an artificer with only planes and arcana. I don't like it, but at least I have a schema of LotG.

I can handle dumping Constitution. A number of characters I've played were pure casters with good Fortitude to begin with and lots of ways to mitigate or prevent damage (illusionist clerics, arcane hierophants mounted on their intelligent dire bat, spirit shaman summoners, etc.). Wisdom I will sometimes go out of my way to pessimize (said artificer has 4, and at some point in the future that will be reduced to 2), Charisma i can take or leave, and Strength and Dexterity are rarely priorities.

Mastikator

2014-04-22, 07:48 AM

Come to think of it there's nothing I haven't dumped. I find it too interesting to not dump something I haven't dumped before.
But I prefer to not dump constitution or intelligence, I prefer to not easily die and I want my character to be knowledgeable.

The Oni

2014-04-22, 09:22 AM

I personally don't mind dumping any stat. Characters with obvious weaknesses are fun (aside from allowing you to minmax) and lead to cool backstory.

I had a white-haired witch/monk with 7 Str (because in his backstory he grew up staggeringly poor, and thus malnourished) and 7 Wis/Cha (because he was actually a genius, hence his 20 Int, but naturally was a bit of the mad, insufferable sort of genius).

My barbarian started with an 8 Cha, although that was because he was generally a misanthrope who hated civilization. As he was forced to work with the party on a regular basis, his Cha increased (at level 4, of course) and he started being less of an ******* to everything and everyone.

I have a merfolk gunslinger/bard/cavalier, who I haven't had a chance to use (you'd be amazed at how hard it is to find a campaign that works in!) with 7 Int, but Dex and Cha through the roof. Her two sisters (being the beautiful, vain sort of merfolk) were lured into traveling with a conman who promised they'd get to travel to a wealthy kingdom, singing for royalty. They did, of course, but now they're not allowed to leave, so she's taking on assassination missions until she's got enough money to raise an army and raze the whole kingdom to the ground.

VoxRationis

2014-04-22, 09:26 AM

I have a merfolk gunslinger/bard/cavalier, who I haven't had a chance to use (you'd be amazed at how hard it is to find a campaign that works in!)

I wouldn't. I'd be amazed at finding a campaign where that works at all. Guns, horses, and water don't mix.

Spore

2014-04-22, 10:08 AM

Con.

I can dump INT because there are people whose mental standards are very low and they still do great things.
I can dump WIS because crazy characters are often times the funniest.
I can dump CHA because I know there have to be some ugly hatable idiots.
I can dump STR because there are people who can't or won't lift a 20 pound sack of salt.
I can dump DEX because I know there are extremely clumsy people.

I just can't dump CON. It's because it disqualifies someone as an adventurer. You all know stereotypical little timmy who is oh-so-sick. Even work around with feats only work so far. I have only seen two good low Con heroes/villains in my time. One is that Shadow Warlock from the Neverwinter Trilogy, the other one is a kid whose mother was poisoned while being pregnant.

OverdrivePrime

2014-04-22, 10:16 AM

I hate dumping any stat. I prefer to play a well-rounded character with a few peaks than a character with a notable deficiency. I'm playing a witch with an 8 strength right now in a (fantastic) PBP campaign and it just about gives me the hives. "What do you mean I'm struggling to carry my backpack! That's not heroic."

Stats I'm least likely to ever have below 12? Intelligence and Charisma. While I prefer to play melee monsters, I never want to roleplay someone who's useless in a social setting, or slow-witted. That's just not fun to me.

ElenionAncalima

2014-04-22, 12:57 PM

Pretty much the only stats I will dump are Wisdom and Charisma...and never both on the same character. I would dump Strength if I was playing with DM who wasn't strict with carrying capacity.

Con - Just seems to risky, since it makes you too easy to kill.
Dex - Just applies in too many categories that pretty much every character needs at some point.
Int - I just know that I wouldn't roleplay it honestly in a long term campaign.

The one exception was a druid I made for a one shot campaign with a 15 point buy, that only ran two sessions. I gave her a 7 in both Intelligence and Charisma...as did my friend who was also playing a druid. We roleplayed it as them both being from a distant, primative land...so they barely spoke common and had no understanding of even the most basic parts of society. It was a lot of fun and all the other players were laughing hysterically for both sessions....however we could not have kept that up, nor would it have continued being as funny, for a full campaign.

ClockShock

2014-04-22, 06:38 PM

I won't dump whatever flavour of Dexterity/Agility stat the system has. I like to attempt fairly flambouyant plans, and it sucks to trip over the first low wall I come across.

Dumping Int is pretty good fun in my experience.

Sylthia

2014-04-22, 07:41 PM

The following mostly applies to D&D.

I never truly dump stats, as I am usually loathe to drop anything below an 8. I never really like anything to have more than a -1.

In a looser definition, Strength and Charisma are usually the stats I tend to dump.

Dex: AC, ranged hit, and Reflex saves, needed by pretty much everybody in some form
Con: Fortitude saves, and especially Hit Points (a running joke in my group is that all Hit Points are temporary Hit Points)
Int: This is probably the most easily dumped of the four, but I like my skill points
Wis: Perception and Will Saves (in my experience, the most important save)

The Oni

2014-04-22, 08:02 PM

I wouldn't. I'd be amazed at finding a campaign where that works at all. Guns, horses, and water don't mix.

Substitute something aquatic for the horse, get waterproof enchantments for the gun. No problem.

Anlashok

2014-04-22, 08:10 PM

Since this thread seems to be primarily about DnD

I hate dumping charisma. DMs tend to be stupid about it and I always like having some talky skills to fall back on.

This is sort of problematic though given that in 3.5 Charisma is essentially the universal dump stat since it's the only stat that doesn't have some sort of universal benefit (str is a close second there admittedly, depending on how nitpicky your DM is about carrying capacity).

DigoDragon

2014-04-22, 08:10 PM

I've dumped every stat at some point, even CON!

It was a five-session adventure and I played a sickly mage based off Rastlin from the Dragon Lance novels. When you're a sickly middle-aged caster who bends in a light breeze, you pick up some useful ideas on how to not die (I used a lot of necromancy spells to keep myself alive in some creative ways). It was a lot of fun.

VoxRationis

2014-04-22, 08:17 PM

See, that's what I think. It's interesting to play a mage, say, with absolutely terrible Constitution; all the more incentive to get out of the fight.

Joe the Rat

2014-04-22, 08:39 PM

I can't dump Dexterity. The vast majority of game systems put a healthy emphasis on combat, and the stat that keeps you from getting hit is kind of important. I am okay with low-balling (going average), but not outright dumping.

I can't flat dump my mental stats - I want a decent score in Intelligence or Wits or Willpower or Perception or Wisdom or Education or whatnot. I've got at least one bonus in there. Int is popular for those skill points. For Storyteller Mental always gets at least secondary assignment. I can't completely ride the stupid. I don't need to play brilliant, but I need to have some clue as to what the snausages is going on.

Ninjaxenomorph

2014-04-22, 10:11 PM

Let's see... For PF, when I take Con as a dump stat, it's a 12. I've taken down to 7 strength on caster characters, and in one case 7 wisdom on a Tiefling (wanted decent Charisma, despite the racial penalty). Dexterity I don't think I've ever dumped; it's always 12 or higher. Because having 12 can ALWAYS benefit you.

I think I've only dipped down on Intelligence once, and probably on a character that shouldn't have (to take levels in Mammoth Rider, need to max out 2 skills and need 5 ranks in another, so my human Samurai was playing with one 'free' skill per level to allocate for a while). I quite like his stats, though (worked out to all 16s in physical stats before belts due to a special boon), and upping his Charisma to take advantage of Samurai abilities. He is a blast to play.

Sylthia

2014-04-22, 10:16 PM

Dr.Gunsforhands

2014-04-23, 01:36 AM

Interesting... I can kind of see everyone's reasoning for Constitution/Body/etcetera, as I can think of no system where it isn't important, and no character archetype where it isn't at least relevant.

I've never minded dumping those stats, personally. I'm actually highly amused by the idea of playing a delicate socialite or a glass-cannon archer. I've been talked out of it more than once, though; for those sorts of characters, strength and logic are usually the first to go, if only because the systems I play in seem to go out of their way to make that the most convenient route.

I share the first few posters' unease with dumping intelligence. It's fun sometimes, but I've had instances in the past where I've tried something that made my DM ask to peek at my character sheet to make sure, and I quote, that, "you always make your character about as smart as you are." This seems to be the case even when playing someone very different from myself in most other respects.

I feel a little weird when I make high-wisdom/wits/intuition characters as well, as far as that goes, as I suspect that those would be some of my dump stats in real life. That and constitution, come to think of it. :smalltongue:

Mr Beer

2014-04-23, 01:55 AM

I'm with slipperychicken, dumping con is a bad idea. As to dumping int, I once played a paladin with a 5 intelligence. That was fun, he almost drown in four inches of water. Same character had a 20 charisma. He was Hodor basically. 5 int, 8 wis, 20 cha, aw yeah.

EDIT: oh yeah, that character's only skill rank was used to maximize diplomacy. God that was fun. Try figuring out what an int 5 character says when he rolls a 30 for diplomacy.

Whatever he says, the response is "Awwwww!! He's adorable!!"

BWR

2014-04-23, 02:09 AM

In d20 terms, Constitution is the one I hardly ever dump, but it has happened on occasion.
Honestly, part of the fun of a character is when you're unfortunate enough to have a crappy stat and see how it makes life miserable for him. Wizards who can't life their spellbooks, fighters who get outwitted by a paper bag, clerics who trip over their feet and into the oncoming sword, folks that are so self-absorbed they can't see beyond their own personal space, people as charismatic as a pile of dung; it's all fun.

TheCountAlucard

2014-04-23, 07:05 AM

Yeah, if you do choose to dump one of your stats, half the fun is in seeing how it shoots you in the foot.

Socksy

2014-04-23, 07:49 AM

I can't play INT lower than about 14-15. The amount of overly complex and convoluted plans I come up with... Think Nale's but more successful and less stupid. Okay, not less stupid, but I tend to think they're genius until someone wiser repeats them back to me in a sarcastic voice. I'm one of the super-high-INT-super-low-WIS types, and I can't play low INT or high WIS to save my life.

Sylthia

2014-04-23, 09:43 AM

A few years ago in a game I was DMing, I had a player play a half-Orc Fighter/Barbarian with an Int of 3.

Khedrac

2014-04-23, 12:26 PM

Power

Whether it is Call of Cthulhu or Runequest I do find this the one stat you really need to be not low. It doesn't have to be high (can help in RQ, though for CoC I want it as high as it will start) but low power is a killer.
Next after power (or before in AH RQ3) comes Intelligence.

Conversely Size can often be a dump stat.

Traveller (original) - not sure, probably no "must have" stat"

Gamma World (original) - Con - when you have your Con in hit dice then it becomes really important.

Lorsa

2014-04-25, 09:53 AM

Sylthia

2014-04-25, 03:16 PM

Loxagn

2014-04-25, 05:49 PM

I guess I'm a little bit weird in some ways. I almost never like to 'dump' a stat unless the character concept has an in-character reason for that. (Defining 'dumping' in this instance as having a score less than 10)
But then again, I usually enjoy playing intelligent characters, and so prioritize mental stats over physical ones.

Tetraplex

2014-04-25, 07:05 PM

I wouldn't. I'd be amazed at finding a campaign where that works at all. Guns, horses, and water don't mix.

Sea Horses and harpoon guns maybe?

I hate dumping Int as well. It's hard to know exactly how dumb one should be in a situation...

Charisma's never been a priority dump star for me. As a fairly uncharismatic fellow irl it's nice being charming lol

VoxRationis

2014-04-25, 09:11 PM

BrokenChord

2014-04-25, 09:30 PM

Personally I don't like dump stats in general as it feels the character easily becomes unlikely or at the very least unlikely as an adventurer. Some speciofic characters can get away with a bit lower in one of the stats if it makes sense bu overall I never really felt comfortable with true dump stats. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing characters with flaws but a dump stat isn't a flaw, it's an immersion-breaking nightmare.

Would you please explain why this is for you? I find myself believing that characters with a few low stats are just as realistic as adventurers as those with all high stats. Remember, it's quite rare that somebody actually picks a path in life based solely on their competence and potential monetary gain. If a character has a passion for what they do, coping with deficiencies is something lots of people would do, and as an aside it's great to help character building.

Heck, the BEST example of this is your standard adventurer/mercenary character. They don't have the perfection to do the standard thing, so they train and carve a name for themselves the hard way instead. A warrior gets rejected from the military due to poor temperament and leadership skills? Low-charisma Fighter mercenary. Wizard too sickly and feeble to join the wizard academy? He travels around searching for his own power. Guy too weak to work the field? Pick up an instrument and find a new way to get money while encouraging the people who serve as your muscle. Bard status achieved.

Now, of course, all-high-stat characters have plenty of good motivations to adventure as well, but I think it's a stretch to say that a character with some low stats makes for an unlikely adventurer. An unlikely hero, sure, but nobody's really likely to be the ones tasked with saving the world or similar important business, eh?

Prince Raven

2014-04-25, 09:43 PM

I just can't dump DEX, my Arcane Duelist Aasimar bard has the lowest DEX of any character I've ever played at 12.

TuggyNE

2014-04-25, 09:52 PM

As a biology major, I would like to point out that sea horses are so named purely for the vaguely equine shape of their head and neck, and are among the slowest-swimming of fish. Just being a bit of a pedant there, and your point is not without validity.

They are also vastly too small for any but the tiniest of PCs to hope to ride.

Of course, that's not counting the inevitable Dire Seahorse, which is of course a full five feet long and has a nice swim speed of 40'. (I have no idea whether Stormwrack actually introduced this, but I wouldn't be surprised.)

Honest Tiefling

2014-04-25, 10:14 PM

I tend to consider an 8 (Which is noticeably below average, but not the lowest it can go) to be my dump stat, but that may be due to how my group interprets it. But what stat I hate to dump and always try to pump up is Intelligence. Sure, my character might have the social skills of a rabid wolverine, the stench of an unwashed ogre, the longevity of a mayfly, the common sense of a five year old, and all of the likability of the worst ever kender to be role-played, but this tome of forbidden knowledge isn't going to learn itself, damn it.

~xFellWardenx~

2014-04-25, 11:03 PM

Is 8 really considered all that low? It's below average, but only as much as 12 is above average, which is to say not a whole lot. 8 isn't dumping any more than 12 is maxing out.

I usually dump Int to the point where I'm getting one skill point per level on any class with 4+int per level or less points. And one time I dumped Cha straight down to 1 and had Int at 5, played a character who hadn't even developed a theory of mind. Was an interesting experience.

Sylthia

2014-04-25, 11:13 PM

Isn't 3 the lowest you can go in a stat? Even with penalties, doesn't it bottom out at 3, at least to start with?

Vrock_Summoner

2014-04-25, 11:20 PM

Isn't 3 the lowest you can go in a stat? Even with penalties, doesn't it bottom out at 3, at least to start with?

Depends on the system you're playing, but in D&D 3,5, the only stat with a minimum of 3 for PCs is Intelligence.

Anlashok

2014-04-25, 11:21 PM

Isn't 3 the lowest you can go in a stat? Even with penalties, doesn't it bottom out at 3, at least to start with?

That's only a rule for intelligence. Other scores can be anything above 0.

Though as a note, the standard rules for 3.5 (which this thread seems to be primarily about) puts your minimum starting stat at 8 with point buy, and if you're rolling for stats you can't go below 3.

Prince Raven

2014-04-25, 11:35 PM

Is 8 really considered all that low? It's below average, but only as much as 12 is above average, which is to say not a whole lot. 8 isn't dumping any more than 12 is maxing out.

Considering that using Pathfinder's points buy system I can't get an 8 without racial penalties or taking points away from it, I definitely think 8 is a dump stat.

Honest Tiefling

2014-04-25, 11:38 PM

I wonder if the difference in opinion is due to different expectations? Those used to point buy, where 8 really is the lowest, might see it differently as opposed to those used to rolling their stats and getting lower scores?

Techwarrior

2014-04-25, 11:46 PM

Personally, I tend to place Intelligence and Dexterity's analogs in whatever game as pump stats, and find it insanely hard to dump in my head.

Otherwise, I can dump just about anything, and if a character really calls out for it, I'm willing to dump those two stats, but I try to only dump it as much as I have to. I also have a tendency to over-dump Wisdom. I tend to be absent-minded and enjoy playing crazies and the like, even if their crazy is only something so simple as an obsession (with explosive).

jaybird

2014-04-26, 11:55 AM

Dex. I like Initiative.

Also, one mental stat. Only one, though.

The Oni

2014-04-26, 01:02 PM

And 8 is definitely dump-stat territory considering you can't even cast magic with that attribute if it's under 10.

ericgrau

2014-04-26, 02:03 PM

str - Dump all the time.
dex - I often get a 10 or a 12 but it's hard for me to dump lower. Nearly all of my characters do something with it.
con - I can't dump this. HP is nice.
int - Mechanically easy to dump, roleplaying-wise I have the same issue as everyone else. Sometimes I can, but other times I want to do clever things.
wis - Dump all the time.
cha - Dump all the time.

So I can't dump con mainly, but dex and int have some dumping issues too. When I was playing 4e I noticed con wasn't as critical for hp. And I was playing ranged. So I instantly dumped it because I had never ever done such a thing before.

TheCountAlucard

2014-04-26, 03:27 PM

Elric of Melniboné was definitely an adventurer, and he seems to have gotten by okay with having dumped Strength and Constitution...

If by "gotten by okay" means "sold his soul to demons and is feeding the souls of others into a cursed artifact sword."

Slipperychicken

2014-04-26, 03:44 PM

And 8 is definitely dump-stat territory considering you can't even cast magic with that attribute if it's under 10.

8 is less than one standard deviation under the average. Assuming we're using 3d6 for stat generation, that means a range of 3-18, average of 10.5, and standard deviation of ~2.96.

An 8 in an ability score puts the character around the 26th percentile. Meaning that the score is better than or equal to 26% of the human population. Certainly bad at that particular attribute, but far from the worst.

Prince Raven

2014-04-27, 01:33 AM

Considering an 8 in intelligence is equivalent to an IQ of 90 if we're going by percentiles, I'd definitely call that a dump stat.

~xFellWardenx~

2014-04-27, 01:59 AM

Considering an 8 in intelligence is equivalent to an IQ of 90 if we're going by percentiles, I'd definitely call that a dump stat.

When I think "dumped Int" I think "mentally ill or can't maintain basic trains of thought", not "would probably get Cs in class". But maybe that's just me.

Prince Raven

2014-04-27, 03:47 AM

Let's put it this way, if you have an IQ of 90 you're only a little bit smarter than Koko the Gorilla.

Kingreaper

2014-04-27, 08:19 AM

I can't dump the wisdom stat, if there is one.

I can play a character who doesn't know stuff (low int); but I can't bring myself to never have any good ideas (low wis)

Prince Raven

2014-04-27, 09:28 AM

Some of my favourite characters have dumped wisdom. High INT and low WIS is an awesome roleplaying combo.

The Oni

2014-04-27, 10:53 AM

Let me clarify: 8 is dump-stat territory for adventurers. Average people should be able to get by with it just fine, but adventurers are a different story.

Sartharina

2014-04-27, 11:00 AM

Let's put it this way, if you have an IQ of 90 you're only a little bit smarter than Koko the Gorilla.
...you do know that about 25% of the people you personally know likely have an IQ of 90, right?

~xFellWardenx~

2014-04-27, 11:03 AM

Let's put it this way, if you have an IQ of 90 you're only a little bit smarter than Koko the Gorilla.

Well, excuse me! When the hell's the last time you checked the IQ scales? 90 is "average or normal intelligence".

And given that my IQ is well below 90, I find the comparison to Koko really offensive.

Vrock_Summoner

2014-04-27, 11:13 AM

Let me clarify: 8 is dump-stat territory for adventurers. Average people should be able to get by with it just fine, but adventurers are a different story.

Well, average in the sense of all 10s and 11s in stats aren't suited to be adventurers, yeah, but there isn't some rules-enforced stat minimum to adventure. ... Well, there is, actually, but it doesn't preclude some low stats. Plenty of people with not-great stats would still adventure, simply being realistic, and while many people would disagree with me I think being a special snowflake is based on opportunities and your actions in response, not stats. So a low-stat character can totally get by, both as an adventurer and a character, especially if their deficiency is in only one stat and they're otherwise golden.

I can't dump Charisma or Intelligence. Look at my profession!

Slipperychicken

2014-04-27, 11:26 AM

Let me clarify: 8 is dump-stat territory for adventurers. Average people should be able to get by with it just fine, but adventurers are a different story.

I've seen a lot of PCs with 8s and lower in stats, and they typically get along just fine as long as they didn't dump their primary attributes or Con.

Spore

2014-04-27, 03:16 PM

Gamgee

2014-04-27, 03:34 PM

I can't dump INT. I don't know how to roleplay someone who is dumb. I need at least a 12 in any build if I can get it to satisfy my roleplaying justification for coming up with these crazy plans.

Slipperychicken

2014-04-27, 06:02 PM

Int 8-12 is about average. Different people have different strengths and weaknesses. Some can't remember trigonometry for the life of it, others struggle to build ANYTHING (I even struggle to put up a shelf). Dumping something is 7 or lower for me.

I think that what constitutes "dumping"should be somewhat sensitive to the method of ability generation. If you're working with 15 point buy, for instance, you pretty much have to keep at least one stat under 10 if you want decent primary attributes. However, if you have 48 point buy, you can reasonably afford to keep all your stats at least 10-14 without sacrificing much.

Talar

2014-04-27, 07:01 PM

I can never dump con. I just can't. I actually sat down to build a character once with the intent of dumping con for a frail sorcerer type I think, and I just could not bring myself to put a score lower than 12 in con.

EDIT
Oh and guys, IQ is not really a good measurement of someone's intelligence. It just isn't those tests don't measure every facet of intelligence and are geared towards a certain type of person, and a certain type of thinking.

Seward

2014-04-27, 08:57 PM

Elric of Melniboné was definitely an adventurer, and he seems to have gotten by okay with having dumped Strength and Constitution...

If you spent most of your character building points in an artifact that more than makes up for those dump stats by providing you with healing and spellcasting vigor every time you kill somebody, while ensuring the slightest nick with the sword sucks the soul out of the body..sure he's doing fine. (you don't need strength for to-hit or damage when the sword essentially wields itself and only requires a feeble cut to kill an enemy)

In Champions, that's called "Buying down your stats and using the points to buy powers in a focus". It doesn't count as actually dumping your stats. What you've done is made your focus the weak spot, not your attributes.

Take away Stormbringer, and Elric is a mage who can theoretically do powerful magic, but casting normal power spells for his class causes him to just about pass out. He's got some stimulant herbs that let him cast an extra spell or two, but he pretty much relies on the damn sword. Which, for extra built points, has a mind and agenda of its own

On-topic, I've dumped everything except con, and I've gone down to 10 con on archers (they tend to be d10 hd critters that behave like arcane casters in combat, so they're essentially the same as a decent con wizard...for me hitpoints required depend more on role than anything else, and fort saves can be decent even with a low con, for warrior-oriented builds, just as a sorcerer with 7 wisdom can muster an adequate will save).

I like skill points, I always manage carrying capacity on low str characters, I accept that low cha is a handicap to social skills (but seriously, a 7 cha is only a -2. If it is starting to be a problem, spend a few skill points. If your int is also 7, you've accepted you will not be a social butterfly. Not all characters are)

My only rule is that an adventuring character should have a plan for surviving combats and contributing to party success in combats. If he's not up to that job, what's he doing with a bunch of heavily armed lunatics who risk their lives weekly?

Prince Raven

2014-04-27, 09:33 PM

...you do know that about 25% of the people you personally know likely have an IQ of 90, right?

Yep, and 25% of the people I know are idiots.

Well, excuse me! When the hell's the last time you checked the IQ scales? 90 is "average or normal intelligence".

And given that my IQ is well below 90, I find the comparison to Koko really offensive.

I checked right before posting, a score of 90 is in the 26th percentile, just like an INT score of 8, meaning 74% of the population is higher.

Hey, Koko tests at an average of 85 IQ, I'm not going to apologise for facts.

Oh and guys, IQ is not really a good measurement of someone's intelligence. It just isn't those tests don't measure every facet of intelligence and are geared towards a certain type of person, and a certain type of thinking.

True, IQ tests test for logical and mathematical intelligence, and fail to test social intelligence and creative reasoning. Thus, an IQ test is a perfectly valid comparison to D&D INT scores, as social intelligence is covered by Charisma and creative reasoning is covered by Wisdom.

Spore

2014-04-27, 10:40 PM

True, IQ tests test for logical and mathematical intelligence, and fail to test social intelligence and creative reasoning. Thus, an IQ test is a perfectly valid comparison to D&D INT scores, as social intelligence is covered by Charisma and creative reasoning is covered by Wisdom.

They also test for how quick you spot things and when I checked last Perception/Spot was a Wis-based skill. You can oversimplify everything but for a deeper analysis you really shouldn't

Prince Raven

2014-04-27, 11:04 PM

Yeah, IQ tests link speed and intelligence a little bit too much if you ask me, but it's the best comparison we're likely to get to D&D intelligence.

Dire Moose

2014-04-27, 11:34 PM

With regards to playing a statistically disadvantaged character, I did find it fun to play a hulking barbarian with the mental capacity of a brick.

Sylthia

2014-04-28, 12:04 AM

Let's get the thread back on the rails.

It's been a while since I played 4th ed. I remember they lumped Str/Con, Dex/Int, and Wis/Cha. What exactly are the drawbacks of dumping half your stats there?

Gamgee

2014-04-28, 06:30 AM

I feel IQ is completely terrible way of measuring intelligence. I score 85-105 regularly. Yet in all the courses I was in I was easily getting 80+ average and if I had bothered to I could have gone higher. Keep in mind in high school my grades were 50-60 with one 93 in English. Granted I planned for those grades to be that way, so if I can game my grades but then suddenly only an 85 on IQ. I don't know it seems silly to me. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I must be the worlds smartest dumb person. Just a personal little mini rant.

Prince Raven

2014-04-28, 08:16 AM

Keep in mind that school grades are also a terrible measure of intelligence. Intelligence is actually very multi-faceted and complicated, we've yet to find a way to measure intelligence better than IQ tests, which is why we still use them.

But we have derailed the thread enough, let's go back to talking about dump stats.

TheCountAlucard

2014-04-28, 02:13 PM

Seward, the white-text in my post should have been obvious since you quoted me. Yes, he has an artifact sword; I was making a joke.

scurv

2014-04-30, 06:48 AM

It very much depends on the character and the DM,

I enjoy my Dex Characters and I almost never dump Cha. On occasion i'll dump str. And as a whole ether wisdom or intelligence needs to be decent. Unless I am playing an intellectually stumped character i need one of those to be high enough to justify any bright idea's the player has.

For a while I did have a DM who though 14 was average, but he was on the 4d6 and knock any roll you don't like school. My 8 str and 11 con wizard was considered anorexic frail borderline cripple and rolled a system shock vs death at every sneeze in that game with the DM enforcing a carry cap of 3 pounds, The next week i redrew the character to fit his description and moved the points to stats i could use and for some reason the DM was very cool with that.

Asmayus

2014-04-30, 07:46 AM

I'm currently playing a wizard with the following ability scores and modifiers:

Strength 8 (-1)
Dexterity 16 (+3)
Constitution 17 (+3)
Intelligence 14 (+2)
Wisdom 8 (-1)
Charisma 9 (-1)

So i guess my answer is "Dex and Con" :smallbiggrin:

Lorsa

2014-05-01, 04:41 AM

Would you please explain why this is for you? I find myself believing that characters with a few low stats are just as realistic as adventurers as those with all high stats. Remember, it's quite rare that somebody actually picks a path in life based solely on their competence and potential monetary gain. If a character has a passion for what they do, coping with deficiencies is something lots of people would do, and as an aside it's great to help character building.

Heck, the BEST example of this is your standard adventurer/mercenary character. They don't have the perfection to do the standard thing, so they train and carve a name for themselves the hard way instead. A warrior gets rejected from the military due to poor temperament and leadership skills? Low-charisma Fighter mercenary. Wizard too sickly and feeble to join the wizard academy? He travels around searching for his own power. Guy too weak to work the field? Pick up an instrument and find a new way to get money while encouraging the people who serve as your muscle. Bard status achieved.

Now, of course, all-high-stat characters have plenty of good motivations to adventure as well, but I think it's a stretch to say that a character with some low stats makes for an unlikely adventurer. An unlikely hero, sure, but nobody's really likely to be the ones tasked with saving the world or similar important business, eh?

I am sorry I have been really slow answering you, perhaps you don't even read this thread anymore. I have been sick and unable to really think about anything.

To be perfectly honest I don't find really low stat characters to be very realistic at all. If we are to use D&D as an example, I consider 5 or lower to be a dump stat. Mechanically 7 is the same, so let's consider 7 and lower to be dump stats. The game doesn't really give you any good description of how many that have a certain score, the distribution curve of sorts. It just kind of states that the "average" is 10-11 (as 10.5 is the average of 3d6). Now, adventurers aren't average, they never roll 3d6 (or well, in some editions they do) so it's safe to assume the adventurer average is about 12-13.

in any case, the whole issue is in how to interpret the scores. That's something the rules doesn't really help you with so I've had to make my own interpretation.

If you think about it, 18-19 is the "unaugmented" human maximum. For strength, these are your olympic weightlifter winners, those that perform feats of strength the rest of us mortals can't even comprehend. So, as high up removed as they are from your average person, just as low must then strength 3 be. Have I ever met anyone over the age of 2 that is so much incredibly weaker compared to the average than an world-reknown weightlifter is better than it? No I really haven't. The same goes for strength 16-17 as compared to 4-5. These people are also really far removed from the norm, almost at the peak of human ability. Have I ever met anyone that much weaker than a strength 16 character has to be stronger? No I really haven't.

Thinking about it in this way has led me to believe that there really aren't many people with ability scores lower than 8 in a D&D world. Simply because when I look around, I can see people that are a bit better than "the average" but I see very few that are so many incriments worse. I really haven't met any very weak, or extremely dumb, or laughably clumsy etc. people. I do believe I have met someone with like 6 in Charisma, but you know, there are exeptions to every rule.

So all things considered, I simply don't believe that dump stats are that common in general. They might exist as rare exceptions but they're hardle present on very many people. For adventurers, who typically diverge from the norm by being generally better they must thus be even less rare. This leads me to the conclusion that it isn't very realistic to have such extremely low stats as 6 on an adventurer.

More than that, but consider that people have to find an adventurer party. Would you want to work, every day, hiking in forests and crawling around caverns with someone who has a Charisma of 6? I really wouldn't. Nor would I want to have someone with Elan's intelligence in my party. No matter what other abilities, that kind of stupidity is an extreme liability. The same goes for most of the other stats, with the potential exception of strength. As long as he can get his own bag of holding, a low strength character could be fine. As for all the other abilities, they just make the character into someone no group would want to bring along. It doesn't really matter what else they do, but those low scores either makes them too ignorant or stupid to be useful, or too unlikeable to ever be invited in the first place.

BrokenChord

2014-05-01, 08:58 AM

An important thing to remember is that the scores are sitting there waiting to be given a reason. Ability scores are... Unfluffed, if you will.

For example, a character with 3 strength probably doesn't have 3 strength naturally; putting it in a game perspective, he more likely has a reason for it, like a birth defect or overcoming a muscle-damaging virus as a child. A character with 3 Int probably has a serious mental affliction, and a character with 3 charisma is similar, probably being autistic or brain-damaged to the point of no longer really projecting their personality.

Those are just examples, of course, but the other thing to consider is that maybe you're looking in the wrong place to find these low-score people? Aside from Dexterity (and sometimes even then) a very low stat means you'd either benefit greatly from medical help or you are a danger to yourself just by being out in the open world.

You can include these things as parts of your own settings or even edit them in to existing ones if you'd like, but the standard D&D setting lacks some things we have today: mental facilities, special education programs, full-time care units in established hospitals... So all the people who would normally go to those places are just sent back out into the world.

As an aside, I think it makes some sense that you know a lower number of exceptional people in person than the amount you've seen on TV. :smallwink:

Stats don't entirely dictate personality. If my Fighter has 3 Int, from a business perspective I don't care how stupid he is as long as he understands "attack enemies" and "do not attack" and maybe "hit this wall" or something. He might be really hard to socialize with, but hey, he's strong as an ox, let's take him.

And so on for pretty much all the stats except Wisdom. Low Wisdom generally means they'll act explicitly against orders on a whim and get everyone killed for reasons that were fitting of every description except "logical". But maybe that's just the players I play with.

Sure, low-Dex people trip and activate the trap, low-Con people fail Fort saves against sickness and get bedridden, and low-Cha people say really bad things if they talk at all. But the issue there is just frequency; if you're playing a dice-based game, you need to have some contibgencies for people rolling 1s on these sorts of things anyway.

I've kind of ranted, but yeah. I still think low-stat adventurers are realistic. Less common than average-stat adventurers, of course, but hey, I've rolled 5s on 4d6b3 before.

Amidus Drexel

2014-05-01, 09:13 AM

If you think about it, 18-19 is the "unaugmented" human maximum. For strength, these are your olympic weightlifter winners, those that perform feats of strength the rest of us mortals can't even comprehend. So, as high up removed as they are from your average person, just as low must then strength 3 be. Have I ever met anyone over the age of 2 that is so much incredibly weaker compared to the average than an world-reknown weightlifter is better than it? No I really haven't. The same goes for strength 16-17 as compared to 4-5. These people are also really far removed from the norm, almost at the peak of human ability. Have I ever met anyone that much weaker than a strength 16 character has to be stronger? No I really haven't.

Have you ever met any olympic weightlifters either, though?

Most of the people with scores in the 2-4 range we call "cripples". People that can't carry more than a couple pounds without having trouble moving, people that trip over their own feet constantly, people that get sick at the drop of a hat, people with stunted brain capacity, etc. I'd be somewhat surprised if you'd never heard of someone with say, polio (granted, this isn't really a big issue anymore), brain damage, or some kind of immunodeficiency.

I know plenty of people that probably have strength scores in the 5-7 range, plenty of people with constitutions in the 5-7 range, and plenty of people I would say probably have an intelligence or charisma score in the 5-7 range. We're talking the people that need help moving small tables, people that are always ill with something, people that only pass grade school because someone held their hand the whole way, or people who are absolutely awful at interacting with other people. I'm sure you've met at least one or two of those.

Unrelated: I believe the human maximum for strength was determined to be somewhere around 22 or 23, actually, based on some of those guys that pull trucks. (clearly, those people have leveled up some to get to that level of strength).

OverdrivePrime

2014-05-01, 09:51 AM

Have you ever met any olympic weightlifters either, though?

I live in Milwaukee, so I've met a few (former) Olympic skaters, rowers and martial artists. In cities that are nexuses for powerlifting, I imagine people would meet them as well. Even so, hilariously strong people are not that uncommon. I know a few guys and a couple ladies who compete at the national level, but aren't quite Olympic caliber.

The funny thing to me is that exceptional people aren't really all that rare, but it is still remarkable and inspiring when you meet someone who is at the top of multiple abilities.

Slipperychicken

2014-05-01, 09:58 AM

If you think about it, 18-19 is the "unaugmented" human maximum. For strength, these are your olympic weightlifter winners, those that perform feats of strength the rest of us mortals can't even comprehend. So, as high up removed as they are from your average person, just as low must then strength 3 be. Have I ever met anyone over the age of 2 that is so much incredibly weaker compared to the average than an world-reknown weightlifter is better than it? No I really haven't. The same goes for strength 16-17 as compared to 4-5. These people are also really far removed from the norm, almost at the peak of human ability. Have I ever met anyone that much weaker than a strength 16 character has to be stronger? No I really haven't.

Someone with Strength or Dex 3 probably doesn't go out much anyway, because being bitten by a mosquito (or being infected with any minor disease) could potentially render him immobile.

Also, any given 3d6 roll has 0.46% (1/216) chance of being an 18. That means, out of a population whose ability scores are generated by 3d6, roughly 2.7% (one in 37 people) have one or more ability scores equal to 18.

Any 3d6 roll has 4.63% (or roughly 1/21.5) chance to equal or exceed 16, meaning that roughly 24.7% (almost 1 in 4) will have at least one score 16 or higher.

[numbers from anydice (http://anydice.com/)]
For 18.
1-0.0046=0.9954
0.9959^6 =~ 0.9727
1-0.9727 =~ 0.027 = 2.7%

for 16+
1- 0.0463 = 0.9537
0.9537^6 =~ 0.7524
1-0.7524 =~ 0.24756 = 24%

Also, it's worth bearing in mind that the DMG has a number of NPC traits which could be used to represent truly exceptional people such as savants and Olympic weightlifters, in case the 3d6 distribution is inaccurate.

Jay R

2014-05-01, 10:29 AM

If you think about it, 18-19 is the "unaugmented" human maximum. For strength, these are your olympic weightlifter winners, those that perform feats of strength the rest of us mortals can't even comprehend.

It will certainly include them, but it includes a great deal more as well. I think you're making the difference much more than it really is.

Assuming a 3d6 distribution for the general population, an 18 STR is the top .46%. If your high school had 1,000 students, that means four or five of the people you went to school with.

So it includes the top four or five weightlifters at average schools, not just Olympians.

One the bottom side, four or five students at that high school would also have STR 3. (It would be more accurate to say that it would include four or five of the students who live in that school area. These people probably have some medical condition, and might be in a special school.

Similarly, about one person in fifty has a STR of 17 or more (or 4 or less). One person in 22 is STR 16 or more (or 5 or less).

One person in 6 would have STR of 7 or less. These aren't incredibly weaker than the average. An act of strength that a normal person can do half the time, they can do 40% of the time. These are just ordinary people who ask somebody else to open a jar.

Jacob.Tyr

2014-05-01, 10:56 AM

Every stat is fun to dump from time to time.
A low dex character works great as a brute in heavy armor. High strength is only important for a few character types. Low int hasn't really impacted many character builds I've played, unless they used it as a casting stat (if you aren't playing a caster or skill monkey in 3.x you probably can't use your skill points for much anyway). Low cha can be incredibly fun, you might just be rude or maybe really quiet.

Low wis is probably one of my favorite character types, to be honest. Especially high int/low wis. Playing a mad bomber alchemist or wizard, or a Rube Goldberg-esque planner.

The only one that I can't see taking a penalty on is Con. Seriously, fort saves and HP every level? I know that isn't the way all systems work, but 3.5/pf make it so important to have high Con that a lot of weak/sick character ideas just don't work without a party that can effectively work to keep you alive. Either your DM has to play enemies incredibly dumbly (I guess we won't just shoot an arrow at the frail spectre of a creature that can kill us with his thoughts) or you become just a huge liability. That classes that might not really need Con already have low HD makes it impossible to really take a con penalty. Enjoy a -1 or -2 on your d6 every level.