Broken Path: DnD 3.5e Altered...Again!

[kennysmith1234]

So this is still a WIP
I am working on it HERE (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=13588.msg234065#msg234065), and HERE (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=259309) but feel free to post comments, ideas, and so on in either location.
Hello world! I am here before you to present to you something I have been working on for a while now.
It started simply as a Wizard and Fighter fix IRL, but when I went to put it online, I decided to fix other issues I saw, which evolved into my wanting to make a setting for the homebrew, which THEN evolved into my saying "Screw this, I will just make an alternate to Pathfinder with my own stuff!"

I do apologize if it is a disorganized mess in any way. If this is the wrong section for this, please let me know/move it (last option for mods and such :P ).

This Opening Post shall have all of the Changes contained within.



Lots of Base Classes and Prestige Classes, I will be changing the skill system and combat system up a wee bit, as well as spell lists, spells, magic item and spell creation, and some other stuff that needs doing.



Hit Die is no longer determined by class. HD is determined by Race.




Humans:

Hit Die=D6
Intelligent hunters from the first, become now a diverse and mighty culture with a focus on military and expansion.
Racial Traits; Humans are very versatile, and so gain a +2 racial bonus to any two chosen Ability Score. Humans are also, sadly, usually inhibited by their choice, and so gain a -2 to any two Ability Score.
Humans can forego this by gaining a +1 untyped bonus to all skill checks they have ranks in. In order to do this, they sadly obtain a -1 penalty to all Saves.

Elves

Hit Die=D6
Children of Dragons, Elves are the fiery progenitors and masters of the Lords of the Skies possessed of incredible prowess.
Racial Traits; Elves are mighty and magical in the way of their ancestors, and so gain a +2 racial bonus to Strength, Charisma, and Intelligence. Their Arrogance and heritage (very mildly scaly), however, cripples them mightily, causing a -4 Racial penalty to Wisdom, -2 to Dexterity, and a -4 to Sense Motive.
Elves gain Low-Light vision, a +2 bonus to Listen, Search, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Jump.
Elves also gain a +1 bonus to Caster level. Their natural capacity for spells allows them greater power.

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/049/2/4/dragon_boy_by_sakimichan-d4q2z34.jpg Sakimichan...best artist ever.




Daemon-spawned
The half-breeds of hellish creatures, Daemon-spawned are hated universally. They are possessed of the dark might of their ancestors, both physically and magically (though this is not arcane magic they are gifted with. Theirs is Divine magicks).
Racial Traits; WIP



Nothing else QUITE yet.


What you do get from the Classes is a Bonus to Health per level.
Shown below are the new classes and the health bonuses.




Tough: +4
Anything between the ruffian bandits of the dark alleyways, and the vigilante self-taught fighters out seeking fame and fortune. Combat oriented, with a good helping of luck. Thugs possess access to some martial maneuvers, but none that are as martially-oriented as Soldier maneuvers.
Approximate Tier Rating: Tier 3
Good BaB, and Fortitude. Poor Will, and Reflex.

http://th03.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2014/111/4/0/shamera_the_thief_by_helmuttt-d7feqj3.jpg
by helmuttt



Soldier: +6
Military men of either town, national, or mercenary groups. Dedicated to combat, as well as avoiding a fight if possible. Soldiers can choose to specialize into four different categories; Front line, Ranged, and Heavy. Frontline is the quintessential fighting-type, the core of all armies in the world, versatile and skilled in all types of combat, but not a master. Ranged is for those who stay out of the battle to pick off enemies one at a time with a few well-placed shots. Heavy is meant to take the brunt of the blows and dish out heavy amounts of damage. Heavily combat oriented with a healthy dosing of luck, and a small portion of people skills. Soldiers have access to Martial Maneuvers developed strictly for war.
Approximate Tier Rating: Tier 2
Good BaB, Fortitude, and Reflex. Poor Will.

http://th06.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2014/096/1/8/fabulous_pally_machine_by_thedurrrrian-d7daccb.jpg
Image by thedurrrrian on DeviantArt



Elementalist: +1
Attuned masters of the Arcane energy of the world, destroyers and ravagers with incredible destructive powers of nature. Elementalists are highly valued in the battlefield, but are so dedicated to their studies that they are eventually able to attune themselves with the elements and halfway merge with the world. Elementalists can choose to Specialize into either Earth, Wind, Fire, or Water. They can also remain un-specialized and gain access to greater class abilities, but will lose out on the more powerful spells.
Approximate Tier Rating: Tier 3
Poor BaB, Fortitude, and Reflex. Good Will.

http://th03.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2014/133/a/d/cm___chiasa_by_redpear-d7iahyh.jpg
By redpear.



Magician: +1
Quick-witted street mages, court-advisers, and even arch-magi can say they are Magician practitioners. They possess knowledge of arcane lore, and can use special cantrips with clever application, making them versatile in many situations. Magicians are not possessed of any overtly damaging spells, but are highly capable of controlling the battlefield and many scenarios with clever illusions and other such spells of trickery. If you stop to consider what a Magician tells you, you have already lost.
Approximate Tier Rating: Tier 2
Poor BaB, Fortitude, and Reflex. Good Will.

http://th04.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2012/029/8/7/878fc478376c93c7754c2a6e2888c686-d4o1h0c.jpg
by art-zealot



Warmage: +2
Martially trained warriors who can wield weapons and cast deadly magics at the same time, Warmages are the true terror of the battlefield. Though not as powerful as Elementalists, and not as versatile as Magicians, Warmages can hold their own in many situations, leading them to be primary magical melee combatants. Warmages can channel power into their weapon of choice. They cannot wear heavier armors as they do this, so are limited in their protective power.
Approximate Tier Rating: Tier 4
Good BaB. Good Reflex, and Will. Poor Fortitude.

http://th04.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2013/175/b/6/paladin_by_thedurrrrian-d6agj47.jpg
Also by thedurrrrian on DeviantArt



Thief: +2
Tricksters, rogues, and liars who can scam even grizzled veterans without fear. Thieves are not focused in combat, but are able to fight with speed and alacrity. Thieves are mainly meant to be skilled and light on their feet.
Approximate Tier Rating: Tier 3
Medium BaB. Good Reflex. Poor Will, and Fortitude.

http://th03.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2011/124/8/0/thief_concept_by_cristi_b-d3fka8v.jpg
by christi-b




Hunter: +4
Trappers and those tracking big prey, Hunters are the only interaction some city folk get with the wilderness. Able to find the smallest traces of their prey's path, a Hunter can always get the edge on their targets with both clever quickness and proper preparation. Traps anybody?
Approximate Tier Rating: Tier 4
Medium BaB. Good Reflex. Poor Will, and Fortitude.

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/171/4/a/__rubina___by_ice__depth-d4uc4tf.jpg
by ice-depth




Pariah: +4
Near non-existence in number are these practitioners of forbidden maneuvers or dark invocations, seeing as Pariahs are rarely accepted into proper society. Gifted and Cursed with the knowledge of ancient secrets, a Pariah is swift like a snake in battle, yet strong like an Iron Golem. Pariahs are hardened against the rage of others, due to their practicing of the dark arts. From the slow bending of fingers through a skull with ease, to causing a man's flesh to twist violently before his eyes, the Pariah is not a light-hearted opponent.
Approximate Tier Rating: Tier 2
Medium BaB, Reflex, and Fortitude. Poor Will.

http://th08.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2012/182/b/f/homeland_by_agnidevi-d55jrjd.jpg
AgniDevi. Love her art!




Bard: +2
Singers and Musicians hold a place of honor and respect because of their incredible talents and wonderful music. The power of music is something that no mage could ever hope to recreate. Bards are they who sing and play their troubles away, which works surprisingly well in battle. Easing the mind, soothing all troubles away, the Bard is effective at manipulating people, creatures, and objects. Music can't be touched, but it can be felt.
Approximate Tier Rating: Tier 3
Poor BaB and Fortitude. Good Will and Reflex.

http://th00.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2013/220/6/0/the_melancholic_musician_by_esgalor-d6h9aeb.jpg
by esgalor



Assassin: +2
Much like the hunter, except focused on hunting the ultimate prey; sentient creatures. The Assassin is able to prepare everything for that one moment, that perfect kill. They learn bits of magic to assist them in their gruesome work, allowing them to be efficient, effective, and lethal.
Approximate Tier Rating: Tier 3
Medium BaB. Good Fortitude, and Reflex. Poor Will.

http://th00.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2014/133/e/5/thief_by_diegogisbertllorens-d7i6tni.jpg
by diegogisbertlsorens



Priest: +1
Holy men of the Gods, Priests bring the good (or ill) omens to the world, and curry favor with their chosen deity. The favor they gain allows them to use mighty divine powers to wreck retribution on the enemy and bring soothing to the wounded ally.
Not very good at physical combat, but very skilled with interaction and riling up the masses. Casts spells of great power, but only at the Discretion of their Deity.
Approximate Tier Rating: Tier 2
Poor BaB, Fortitude, and Reflex. Good Will.

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/339/0/3/skirsdag_high_priest_by_jasonengle-d4ia8le.jpg
by jasonengle



Summoner: +1
Callers of Spirits, bringers of they who hunger after the souls of men, binders of Daemons to mortal flesh. Summoners are casters who are dedicated to summoning other beings to do their dirty work for them. Whether they are simply summoning hundreds of spiders, or calling out to an Elder Elemental, summoners can bring great force to bear when preparations have been made.
Approximate Tier Rating: Tier 3
Poor BaB, Fortitude, and Reflex. Good Will.

http://th06.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2014/017/b/b/dracarys_by_ice_marioteodosio-d5rhs03.jpg
by marioteodosio



Wilder: +1
Those whose manifested power is natural, uncouth. Where Elementalists attain their power from the world around them, Wilders use magic from within. Wielding raw energy drawn from within, Wilders are powerful at whatever study they apply themselves to. Some of the world's most renowned Pyromancers were in fact Wilders.
Approximate Tier Rating: Tier 2
Medium BaB, Good Will. Poor Reflex, and Fortitude.

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/344/f/c/crow_mage___illustration_by_noiprox-d4iqtwq.jpg
by noiprox



Necromancer +2
Universally shunned, yet seen more often than the Pariah is the Necromancer. Grave-Keepers one and all, some are intent on remaking the world into an Undead Paradise, while others are happy to put the dead back in their place. Some still are just un-wholesomely curious about death and undeath. They who can raise the dead, and slam them back into their crypts, are more feared than even the most Evil Dragons.
This causes most, if not all, Necromancers to be either exiled, or kept within the confines of a Graveyard as the keeper of the Dead.
Approximate Tier Rating: Tier 3
Medium BaB. Good Fortitude, and Will. Poor Reflex.

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2014/132/e/3/orque_mage_by_ptitvinc-d7i2p37.jpg
by ptitvinc





Classes no longer advance to the 20th level. Instead they now advance to 5th level, allowing either advancement in Prestige Classes if accessible, or advancement in an elite version of the original class that advances previous skills.



Wizard: +1
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; An Arcane Caster focused on making and learning new things.
Master Illusionaire: +1
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; A paragon of deception with magic and self.
Battle Trickster: +2
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Deceptive combatantwho always has a trick up his/her sleeve.
Squad Mage: +2
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Every army needs a strong arm to wipe clean the earth of their enemy.
Paladin: +4
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Guardians of Good, drafted by the Gods to bring the good word to the heretics.
Swordsage: +2
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; A master of the Quickened Edge, dedicated to a swift end.
Sorcerer of Battle: +6
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Heavily Armored mages who can destroy whole armies at a time.
Blackguard: +4
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; A bringer of Destruction called to serve the Evil Divine as a messenger of death.
Keeper of the Flame: +1
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Protectors of the fire and light of knowledge.
Grafter of Flesh: +1
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; A painful art that merges the separated flesh of powerful beings with mortal form.
Street King: +4
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; A force of nature in any city, known as notorious Kingpins and Vigilantes.
Archmage: +1
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Masters of the Arcane, possessed of Versatility and the Intellect to use it.
Master Theurge: +1
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Dual casting master that merges divine with arcane.
Magical Artisan: +1
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Creators of incredible magical items and creatures.
Explorer: +2
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Quick and clever map makers and wander-lust driven individuals.
Adventurer: +4
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Master of surviving in the worst of situations.
Berserker: +6
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; A raging whirlwind of flesh, blood, and wrath.
Shadowdancer: +1
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Manipulators of the shadows and minds of all who behold the dance.
Warrior of the Waves: +2
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Graceful fighter able to call on the grace and power of the Ocean.
Vulcan Combat Master: +2
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Quick and hard warrior of Magma and Flame.
Breaker of Mountains: +2
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Solid combatant with the strength of Stone.
Fierce Stormrider: +2
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Soaring weapon master who dances across the battlefield borne on tempests.
Seeker of the Song: +1
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; A hunter of pieces of the Song of Creation.
Bladesinger: +4
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Practiced warrior of song and performance, making any battle into a show.
Lord of the Dead: +2
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; They who command hordes of Undead.
Voice of Passing Beyond: +1
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Pulls spirits and dead from this life to the next gently and ably.
Keeper of the Damned: +4
Prerequisites; WIP
Description; Shepherd of the Undead and Ghosts, keeps them from slaying the living.


Good show! Jolly Good Show!


What I am trying to achieve is something...unique but based off of that familiar and relatively easy to use system Dungeons and Dragons 3.5e.

This will take some time, so please keep an eye out, suggest things and give good criticism. I will be working on it for as long as it takes!

[Composer99]

Would classes at least provide bonus hit points?

[kennysmith1234]

Would classes at least provide bonus hit points?

That...is actually a really good idea.
Though obviously only the tanky classes would get the bigger bonuses, Like Wizard-ish classes get +1 each level, rogue-ish classes get +2, fighter-ish get +3, barbarian-ish get +4? Maybe 1 more for each...

[kennysmith1234]

Updated with information and some cool stuff. Hope y'all enjoy what little I have so far.

[kennysmith1234]

Triple posting...oh what fun.

Anyways I have provided more updates, added Priests, and updated words.

What does GitP think so far?

[TheFamilarRaven]

I think the health is a little off. racial hitdice makes sense, and I like that change. However, while the new system of hitdice brings the average of "squishy" classes up, it lowers the average health of classes that were previously "tanky".

using first level humans (with no CON mod) as an example,

Classes that used to grant d12 hitcies shoul be +6 hitpoints per level

classes that used to grant d10 should be +4

And I think the +2 for thief-like classes is fine, as well as the +1 for caster classes

this way the "tanky" classes stay more or less on par with the previous average of hitpoints, and caster's get that boost from racial hitdie.

EDIT: Also, Priest have no class hitpoint bonus (I assume it will be +1) and MAgicians have "+!", now, ! is not a number I've heard of, so perhaps going into more detail about that might be helpful :smalltongue:

[kennysmith1234]

I think the health is a little off. racial hitdice makes sense, and I like that change. However, while the new system of hitdice brings the average of "squishy" classes up, it lowers the average health of classes that were previously "tanky".

using first level humans (with no CON mod) as an example,

Classes that used to grant d12 hitcies shoul be +6 hitpoints per level

classes that used to grant d10 should be +4

And I think the +2 for thief-like classes is fine, as well as the +1 for caster classes

this way the "tanky" classes stay more or less on par with the previous average of hitpoints, and caster's get that boost from racial hitdie.

EDIT: Also, Priest have no class hitpoint bonus (I assume it will be +1) and MAgicians have "+!", now, ! is not a number I've heard of, so perhaps going into more detail about that might be helpful :smalltongue:


He he he...I edited that silly set of mistakes.
Altered the Bonus hit die, because it is a good idea, and I updated the Soldier mildly. Soon I will figure out what BaB and saves to use for each class.

[toapat]

no paladins?

Anyway, alot of this can really only be taken in the context we have.

As of currently the only real problem is the refusal to delete the fighter. sure in O/1st/2nd/4th they are good but thats for reasons you cant really do in 3.5 for justifiable reasons, and in 4th they basically are just the warblade

[Iferus]

I like this idea.

Right now you have

3 basic fighter types (Barbarian, Thug, Soldier)
4 basic mage types (Elementalist, Magician, Warmage, Priest)
4 basic rogue types (Thief, Hunter, Bard, Assassin)


To finish off your list of basic archetypes from which all other base classes can be built as PrC's, I'd add:

Mentalist (a psionic mage)
Healer (a pure support mage)
Shaman (a mage that uses contact with spirits - warlocks, dragonfire adepts, binders)


And perhaps you could diversify mechanically by giving bonus class features to specific multiclass combinations. I'm not a fan of early PrC access, but a Priest2/Soldier2 could get Divine Grace as a bonus. They're multiclassing a mage and a fighter type, we all know that deserves a little help.

[TheFamilarRaven]

To finish off your list of basic archetypes from which all other base classes can be built as PrC's, I'd add:

Healer (a pure support mage)

This is pretty much a specialized version of the priest, so it makes no sense to add another class, unless we split priest into two classes.



Shaman (a mage that uses contact with spirits - warlocks, dragonfire adepts, binders)

I would argue that "Binder" fits the flavor of base class better than shaman, because binders can bind spirits (shaman) or demons/devils (warlock), whereas Shamans becoming warlocks seems ... off, since the flavor of their class deals with with nature spirits rather than infernal beings.



And perhaps you could diversify mechanically by giving bonus class features to specific multiclass combinations. I'm not a fan of early PrC access, but a Priest2/Soldier2 could get Divine Grace as a bonus. They're multiclassing a mage and a fighter type, we all know that deserves a little help.

A nice thought, but what class features are given depending on the combination? What if someone multi-classed 3 times, or four times? A what levels do they get new features? Do they get more than 1 extra class feature the more levels they take in both classes?

I think it would be simpler to create a PrC that fit the archetypes of the multi-class. I.e Priest/Soldiers would be expected to take levels in the paladin (or blackguard) PrC. While Assassin/Hunters would become .... Bounty hunters?


no paladins?

doesn't look like it :smalltongue: but probably will be a PrC



As of currently the only real problem is the refusal to delete the fighter. sure in O/1st/2nd/4th they are good but thats for reasons you cant really do in 3.5 for justifiable reasons, and in 4th they basically are just the warblade

Having a melee class is a problem? Sure, fighter has never been the best, but the fact that it exists does not make DnD any worse off, because you don't have to play a fighter if you don't want to, there's other melee classes that are .. well, better; In general, and at filling that archetype you wanted to play anyway.

Besides, there is no fighter, there are soldiers (covering any combatant's with formal training), and thugs, for those self-taught scrappers. and then there's barbarian, but .... he's the same really (actually, I feel like we could roll the barbarian into thug.)

give these classes one or two social skills, and 4 + int mod skills per level and you have a class that's could be good at fighting and can do a few things outside of combat, not to mention a few new class features that can help with that. Maybe even give Soldiers access to martial disciplines.




Wizards will no longer be batman after level 5, gods by 10, and invincible by 15.
Fighters are no longer that class only useful for a two level dip.


I've always thought that the biggest fix need not be the fighter (and by fighter and I mean melee classes in general) improved, but full blown casters toned down.

I think you're on the right track. Delete wizard and spread out the casting among separate classes. I have some suggestion for each.



Each class should probably be a fixed list caster, rather than drawing upon separate schools, they'll be assigned certain roles.

These differ slightly from you're spoiler, for example, I don't mention elementalists as being "versatile" because the one problem with wizards in 3.5 is their versatility, and some of this might be rendundent

For instance:

-Your elementalists will be the blasters and summoners, and not much else. They'll be good in a fight, but their spells will lack some utility, unless you're threatening to blown stuff up. So a LOT of evocation spells, throw in some disintegrate and a few conjuration spells that deal direct damage, and that should do it.


-Conversely, your Magicians will be the support mages. They're adept at battle field control, and got some utility, but they not so good at directly damaging a creature, but they can sure mess with them! Basically, illusions, enchantments, transmutation, teleport, anything that can control the environment and it's creatures could be fair game for a magician

-Warmages .... well, they can hit things with swords as well as cast spells. I see a lot of touch spells which can be cast through their weapons, some self buffs and maybe the ability to reduce some meta-magic costs for free. throw in 4 + int mod skill (unless INT is a primary stat) points so they can do some things out of combat.

-And priests, Priest maybe should be broken up into two classes as well, since you're description basically says they're the old clerics, but without armor. Although you can probably just delete the difference between divine and arcane magic, so give some of their damaging spells to other classes like the elementalist (Flame Strike, for instance). But maybe keep a few that fit the flavor of the class (Word of faith etc.) However, I see priests as your support class. They're the necromancers that drain the life from their foes, curse their enemies and command hordes of undead. Conversely, they can be great healers that bless their allies and take care of the wounded and sick.

your Wizard PrC could very well simply be a theruge type class, that allows continued casting progression in two casting classes. For instance, you could be a Magician/elementalist/wizard, you won't be able to get the best spells available, but you can draw upon multiple spell lists.

[toapat]

Having a melee class is a problem? Sure, fighter has never been the best, but the fact that it exists does not make DnD any worse off, because you don't have to play a fighter if you don't want to, there's other melee classes that are .. well, better; In general, and at filling that archetype you wanted to play anyway.

Besides, there is no fighter, there are soldiers (covering any combatant's with formal training), and thugs, for those self-taught scrappers. and then there's barbarian, but .... he's the same really (actually, I feel like we could roll the barbarian into thug.)

give these classes one or two social skills, and 4 + int mod skills per level and you have a class that's could be good at fighting and can do a few things outside of combat, not to mention a few new class features that can help with that. Maybe even give Soldiers access to martial disciplines.

Fighter was never a Formality problem in their training, the problem is the "Grandmaster of Arms" concept is natively unhealthy for the game. Modern Day soldiers are more like rangers then fighters.

And yes, the Fighter did hurt the game. Every single melee feat was hurt for a very long time during 3.5 as a result of their existence. Leadership was only made available to everyone in third, allowing for the first time a reasonable explanation for wizard-kings.

[kennysmith1234]

Sweet Jesu mother of Mary that is a lot of good stuff!
To business:


no paladins?

Anyway, alot of this can really only be taken in the context we have.

As of currently the only real problem is the refusal to delete the fighter. sure in O/1st/2nd/4th they are good but thats for reasons you cant really do in 3.5 for justifiable reasons, and in 4th they basically are just the warblade

Pally is now PrC, because seriously, all of that smiting deserves better casting.


I like this idea.

Right now you have

3 basic fighter types (Barbarian, Thug, Soldier)
4 basic mage types (Elementalist, Magician, Warmage, Priest)
4 basic rogue types (Thief, Hunter, Bard, Assassin)


To finish off your list of basic archetypes from which all other base classes can be built as PrC's, I'd add:

Mentalist (a psionic mage)
Healer (a pure support mage)
Shaman (a mage that uses contact with spirits - warlocks, dragonfire adepts, binders)


And perhaps you could diversify mechanically by giving bonus class features to specific multiclass combinations. I'm not a fan of early PrC access, but a Priest2/Soldier2 could get Divine Grace as a bonus. They're multiclassing a mage and a fighter type, we all know that deserves a little help.

Definitely on the Shaman-type and Mentalist, but I have to agree with Raven on saying that the Priest is essentially the Healer/buffer/debuffer, though Magician has those last two in greater power.

Last part...That really is what Prestige is for.
Wooh PrC!


This is pretty much a specialized version of the priest, so it makes no sense to add another class, unless we split priest into two classes.

I would argue that "Binder" fits the flavor of base class better than shaman, because binders can bind spirits (shaman) or demons/devils (warlock), whereas Shamans becoming warlocks seems ... off, since the flavor of their class deals with with nature spirits rather than infernal beings.

A nice thought, but what class features are given depending on the combination? What if someone multi-classed 3 times, or four times? A what levels do they get new features? Do they get more than 1 extra class feature the more levels they take in both classes?

I think it would be simpler to create a PrC that fit the archetypes of the multi-class. I.e Priest/Soldiers would be expected to take levels in the paladin (or blackguard) PrC. While Assassin/Hunters would become .... Bounty hunters?

doesn't look like it :smalltongue: but probably will be a PrC

Having a melee class is a problem? Sure, fighter has never been the best, but the fact that it exists does not make DnD any worse off, because you don't have to play a fighter if you don't want to, there's other melee classes that are .. well, better; In general, and at filling that archetype you wanted to play anyway.

Besides, there is no fighter, there are soldiers (covering any combatant's with formal training), and thugs, for those self-taught scrappers. and then there's barbarian, but .... he's the same really (actually, I feel like we could roll the barbarian into thug.)

give these classes one or two social skills, and 4 + int mod skills per level and you have a class that's could be good at fighting and can do a few things outside of combat, not to mention a few new class features that can help with that. Maybe even give Soldiers access to martial disciplines.




I've always thought that the biggest fix need not be the fighter (and by fighter and I mean melee classes in general) improved, but full blown casters toned down.

I think you're on the right track. Delete wizard and spread out the casting among separate classes. I have some suggestion for each.



Each class should probably be a fixed list caster, rather than drawing upon separate schools, they'll be assigned certain roles.

These differ slightly from you're spoiler, for example, I don't mention elementalists as being "versatile" because the one problem with wizards in 3.5 is their versatility, and some of this might be rendundent

For instance:

-Your elementalists will be the blasters and summoners, and not much else. They'll be good in a fight, but their spells will lack some utility, unless you're threatening to blown stuff up. So a LOT of evocation spells, throw in some disintegrate and a few conjuration spells that deal direct damage, and that should do it.


-Conversely, your Magicians will be the support mages. They're adept at battle field control, and got some utility, but they not so good at directly damaging a creature, but they can sure mess with them! Basically, illusions, enchantments, transmutation, teleport, anything that can control the environment and it's creatures could be fair game for a magician

-Warmages .... well, they can hit things with swords as well as cast spells. I see a lot of touch spells which can be cast through their weapons, some self buffs and maybe the ability to reduce some meta-magic costs for free. throw in 4 + int mod skill (unless INT is a primary stat) points so they can do some things out of combat.

-And priests, Priest maybe should be broken up into two classes as well, since you're description basically says they're the old clerics, but without armor. Although you can probably just delete the difference between divine and arcane magic, so give some of their damaging spells to other classes like the elementalist (Flame Strike, for instance). But maybe keep a few that fit the flavor of the class (Word of faith etc.) However, I see priests as your support class. They're the necromancers that drain the life from their foes, curse their enemies and command hordes of undead. Conversely, they can be great healers that bless their allies and take care of the wounded and sick.

your Wizard PrC could very well simply be a theruge type class, that allows continued casting progression in two casting classes. For instance, you could be a Magician/elementalist/wizard, you won't be able to get the best spells available, but you can draw upon multiple spell lists.

Hoo man, my brain is gonna take a bit on that one...So yeah, I am not sure if I want to use Binders as is, or to change them up a smidgen and start them off with smaller bound things, and make them more summoner-type.

I was planning on giving thugs more intimidation and luck over Combat, but they will get their own maneuvers...they will just be geared towards basic self-taught shenanigans like throwing a halfling at an enemy, or a headbutt to daze them and yourself.
Soldiers would get the better interaction, plus they will definitely get the cooler martial maneuvers, like Crane-Over-the-Mountains (Brownie points if you get what book that obscure reference hails from) and leaping off of an opponent's head to get to another enemy.

Elementalist: Yeah, I wasn't quite sure WHAT I was going to do, I just knew less all of the everything that Wizards do, and more Blasting hilarity. Thinking that doing something similar to what Wizards could do with Specialization. Elementalists Specializing into Fire, Water, Earth, or Wind.
Not specializing means that you are not quite so powerful, but you can do a bit more. Maybe not giving them summoning, but then again that would make sense either way.

Magicians: That was really the thought in that one. Cantripping, silly illusions, and some other cool stuff.
Seriously, Transmutation is either going to be it's own PrC, Base Class, or Just Not Happen.
OP as Nonsense.

Warmages: Yep, and I am making Armored Mage (Light/Medium/Heavy) into Feats, so Warmages will at least get Light.

Now onto the juicy stuff, Priests:
Priests I am thinking are basically divine casters, not Clerics. No combat ability at all beyond DIVINE SMITE BRAARGH or Necrofancy, which I am thinking just might also become a Base Class.

Now Wizard idea...pretty nifty. I was thinking of instead making Wizard PrC as a professional spell researcher who studies and finds/makes all the cool stuff, BUT can still be pretty nasty in battle/whatever casting he was before.

Necromancer? Yeah? No?


Fighter was never a Formality problem in their training, the problem is the "Grandmaster of Arms" concept is natively unhealthy for the game. Modern Day soldiers are more like rangers then fighters.

And yes, the Fighter did hurt the game. Every single melee feat was hurt for a very long time during 3.5 as a result of their existence. Leadership was only made available to everyone in third, allowing for the first time a reasonable explanation for wizard-kings.

Fighter is soooooooooooo laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame...unless you are an accidental Optimizer like me. Ah Cahn't Haelp Et! Modern Soldiers really are Rangers, except they get cooler stuff at 1st level. ;)
Older Fighter-types, such as Knights and regular Soldiers in militaries, where essentially trained Farmers. Well, Knights were pompous douches who clanked around in a clanky fashion, clanking their clankers in other peoples faces, then fighting in true Vader fashion with one another.
Really stiff-like!

Seriously, though. Getting rid of Leadership, and replacing it with certain rules/common sense determining how to attain followers.

Whew! Done thinking for a bit!
Will update and change some things, and will add something a little odd.

[toapat]

Pally is now PrC, because seriously, all of that smiting deserves better casting.

paladin casting should never be available as a PrC because that is opening it up to severe exploitation, considering its supposed to be support and defense. Shoehorning it like that is either ****ing the paladin or allowing it to be available to the wrong classes.

[kennysmith1234]

paladin casting should never be available as a PrC because that is opening it up to severe exploitation, considering its supposed to be support and defense. Shoehorning it like that is either ****ing the paladin or allowing it to be available to the wrong classes.

Basically a Priest who has trained in combat becomes a paladin if they meet the requirements. They advance the Priest casting slowly, but can be out there in the frontlines, defending the faith and fighting the (Good?) fight.
Not going to use normal Paladin casting, as said above.
Basically WILL be the Cleric, just better attacks, worse spells.

[toapat]

Basically WILL be the Cleric, just better attacks, worse spells.

sure, and that worked fine in third.

[kennysmith1234]

sure, and that worked fine in third.

So what, you are thinking of that crazy casting? The paladin at it's highest will be basically casting 5th level cleric spells, and even then it will be a heavily altered list that isn't quite so Zilla.
Man, that spell/list changing is going to take forever!

[toapat]

So what, you are thinking of that crazy casting? The paladin at it's highest will be basically casting 5th level cleric spells, and even then it will be a heavily altered list that isn't quite so Zilla.
Man, that spell/list changing is going to take forever!

you cant prestiege a pure caster into a Physical combatant who supports their abilities with magic. the very nature of the spells doesnt work. If the list already supports that, then the class is OP, if the paladin uses a list not dedicated to such it becomes completely worthless, or completely overpowered depending on how it is specialized.

Its not like how Duskblade/Hexblade or Swiftblade are. Paladins are not primary casters with secondary physical combat.

[kennysmith1234]

you cant prestiege a pure caster into a Physical combatant who supports their abilities with magic. the very nature of the spells doesnt work. If the list already supports that, then the class is OP, if the paladin uses a list not dedicated to such it becomes completely worthless, or completely overpowered depending on how it is specialized.

Its not like how Duskblade/Hexblade or Swiftblade are. Paladins are not primary casters with secondary physical combat.

You actually kind of sort of VERY missed what I said earlier.
Paladin will require a couple levels of Priest, BUT will also require like 3 levels of a combat class like Soldier. I am thinking that differing Deities might require different combat classes to be prereqs for their Prestige Pally/Blackguard.

[toapat]

You actually kind of sort of VERY missed what I said earlier.
Paladin will require a couple levels of Priest, BUT will also require like 3 levels of a combat class like Soldier. I am thinking that differing Deities might require different combat classes to be prereqs for their Prestige Pally/Blackguard.

no, i didnt.

you are saying that the paladin basically is just an extension of priest. Which doesnt work because it means either the class is worthless because its mechanics wont work together, or its worthless because theres no point for the priest to invest in it because their buffs are equivalent/superior

See: Why cleric is overpowered.

the entire reason why paladin is good in 3rd is because it was able to be independantly improved from other classes.

The reason why paladin was overpowered in 2nd was because it was a fighter specialization that gained deep cleric casting and had access to the best magic items in the entire game.

[kennysmith1234]

no, i didnt.

you are saying that the paladin basically is just an extension of priest. Which doesnt work because it means either the class is worthless because its mechanics wont work together, or its worthless because theres no point for the priest to invest in it because their buffs are equivalent/superior

See: Why cleric is overpowered.

the entire reason why paladin is good in 3rd is because it was able to be independantly improved from other classes.

The reason why paladin was overpowered in 2nd was because it was a fighter specialization that gained deep cleric casting and had access to the best magic items in the entire game.

Well I don't want to make it just a tanky priest, or have that really boring spell list that Paladins have in 3.5e. Seriously, that stuff is so disappointing it hurts my kidneys.

What would you think of doing? Again, separate spell list is always lame so a slower progressing priest with combat capabilities and the ability to take a beating. Though I do get your point and add that beyond adding Smiting (lovely stuff that is!), perhaps trading the usual channel spell slot for cure/harm for extra damage on hit, or extra AC.

I admit that what I just said was probably god-awful, and that you seem a bit angry at Pally as Prestige.

[toapat]

Well I don't want to make it just a tanky priest, or have that really boring spell list that Paladins have in 3.5e. Seriously, that stuff is so disappointing it hurts my kidneys.

What would you think of doing? Again, separate spell list is always lame so a slower progressing priest with combat capabilities and the ability to take a beating. Though I do get your point and add that beyond adding Smiting (lovely stuff that is!), perhaps trading the usual channel spell slot for cure/harm for extra damage on hit, or extra AC.

I admit that what I just said was probably god-awful, and that you seem a bit angry at Pally as Prestige.

Go and find the complete list of spells paladins have in 3.5

no, not just the SRD stuff which just has good Out of Combat utility spells + Shield other

the list that has the great stuff, like Divine Sacrifice (Smite's Manly brother), Rhino Rush (Charging Smite's Frat roommate), Silverbeard (Imagine a female elf with a glorious flowing beard made out of Silver. that gives +2 sacred Armor), Glory of the Martyr (Shield other's Father)

[kennysmith1234]

Go and find the complete list of spells paladins have in 3.5

no, not just the SRD stuff which just has good Out of Combat utility spells + Shield other

the list that has the great stuff, like Divine Sacrifice (Smite's Manly brother), Rhino Rush (Charging Smite's Frat roommate), Silverbeard (Imagine a female elf with a glorious flowing beard made out of Silver. that gives +2 sacred Armor), Glory of the Martyr (Shield other's Father)

Seen it.

Eh.

Though a Female Elf with a Glorious Moses Beard is just hilarious...

You sold me.
Still will require Priest spells and combat maneuvers, I am just going to alter the spell list, make it an alternate continuation of what Priests get, as well as get rid of Alignment issues.

Sound like a good plan?

[toapat]

Sound like a good plan?

no.

Paladin needs alot of work but its also simple, one of the problems with 3.5 is they didnt come up with the scaling of how paladin spells should be for years. 1=2, 2=3, 3=5, 4=6 (Paladin SL = Cleric/Wizard SL)

[kennysmith1234]

no.

Paladin needs alot of work but its also simple, one of the problems with 3.5 is they didnt come up with the scaling of how paladin spells should be for years. 1=2, 2=3, 3=5, 4=6 (Paladin SL = Cleric/Wizard SL)

In spite of coffee laden with more sugar than is humanly possible that took a bit to comprehend.
But actually...that is pretty good.

Now the main thing is that I want to keep that whole front line arse kicker who is basically God's hand on earth, BUT it is too powerful to have as a Base Class. I dislike separate casting from Prestige classes, but other people enjoy them.

No God in their right mind (Looking at you all of the Gods of Earth History!) would pick some random brobo (brotherly hobo) off the street and say "Lol u r mai pally, go kill dose guis hurr hurr!" They will want somebody dedicated to the utmost and strong enough to actually carry out his/her word as divine law. That and making players work towards being the paragon of Justice/Evil is just totally cool, since it would be worth it to scream Demacia at the enemy as you stab them.

Were you just thinking of doing them as a (shudders) base class? If so, PLEASE tell me there is a flavor explanation as well.

PS/EDIT: Added Necromancers and Pariahs. Necromancer=Luffy pushing undead back into a hole and Pariah=Torturous Maneuvers or Invocations. Still thinking of a less evil version of an Invocation user (spontaneous caster basically).

[toapat]

Were you just thinking of doing them as a (shudders) base class? If so, PLEASE tell me there is a flavor explanation as well.

What defines Chivalry, the basis of the Paladin

1. Believe the Church's teachings and observe all the Church's directions.
2. Defend the Church.
3. Respect and defend all weaknesses.
4. Love your country.
5. Show no mercy to the Infidel. Do not hesitate to make war with them.
6. Perform all your feudal duties as long as they do not conflict with the laws of God.
7. Never lie or go back on one's word.
8. Be generous to everyone.
9. Always and everywhere be right and good against evil and injustice.

Bolded is material which was unchanged/largely identical

1. Believe in the ideal of Good, Observe the Ideal of good.
2+4. Defend that which is good
5: Infidel: That which is evil
6: Protect those you are sworn to protect, respect those worthy of respect.

Paladins are not supposed to be mandatorily religious in 3.5. They are supposed to believe in good and doing good. the difference between CG and LG paladins is the inclusion of rule 7 of Chivalry.

[kennysmith1234]

What defines Chivalry, the basis of the Paladin

1. Believe the Church's teachings and observe all the Church's directions.
2. Defend the Church.
3. Respect and defend all weaknesses.
4. Love your country.
5. Show no mercy to the Infidel. Do not hesitate to make war with them.
6. Perform all your feudal duties as long as they do not conflict with the laws of God.
7. Never lie or go back on one's word.
8. Be generous to everyone.
9. Always and everywhere be right and good against evil and injustice.

Bolded is material which was unchanged/largely identical

1. Believe in the ideal of Good, Observe the Ideal of good.
2+4. Defend that which is good
5: Infidel: That which is evil
6: Protect those you are sworn to protect, respect those worthy of respect.

Paladins are not supposed to be mandatorily religious in 3.5. They are supposed to believe in good and doing good. the difference between CG and LG paladins is the inclusion of rule 7 of Chivalry.

Still feeling the Prestige Class Vibes. Would it be a douche move to ask you to make a table/pseudo table of how you think it would progress? Don't worry about factoring in spell progression, since my coffee addled brains somehow got that. Especially special abilities, like smite and aura stuff.
Mounts seem a bit odd to me, so perhaps instead the mount is essentially an animal companion? It never seemed like that to me from the 3.5 description.

So I will also be doing away with Good and Evil for alignments and restrictions, but I am wondering if there is a way to proxy it in a mechanical way (taint-like perhaps) without it limiting your character to being lawful stupid, or retarded evil.

Sorry for my wall of text shenanigans. Figure I ought to say this now as I plunge into my last paragraph.

Maybe the Paladin could be both a Base Class AND a Paragon Class, just different names. Base version is a Holy themed Pariah with more social acceptance and badassery, while the Prestige is more Unstoppable Force of the Divine. Choice between Maneuvers and Stances to protect and Aid allies, or Spells that do the same...plus smiting class ability at PrC level.

I may not be getting your point in general, though. If I am not I will try my best tomorrow after a nice long coma. :smallbiggrin:

[toapat]

Still feeling the Prestige Class Vibes. Would it be a douche move to ask you to make a table/pseudo table of how you think it would progress? Don't worry about factoring in spell progression, since my coffee addled brains somehow got that. Especially special abilities, like smite and aura stuff.

Maybe the Paladin could be both a Base Class AND a Paragon Class, just different names. Base version is a Holy themed Pariah with more social acceptance and badassery, while the Prestige is more Unstoppable Force of the Divine. Choice between Maneuvers and Stances to protect and Aid allies, or Spells that do the same...plus smiting class ability at PrC level.

Heres some light reading (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14104896&postcount=1) on my opinion of paladin


Well, Pious Templar and Blackguard exist in 3.5, and barring terrible spelltable support, they are some of the best PRCs for mundanes in the game.

[kennysmith1234]

Heres some light reading (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14104896&postcount=1) on my opinion of paladin


Well, Pious Templar and Blackguard exist in 3.5, and barring terrible spelltable support, they are some of the best PRCs for mundanes in the game.

Blackguard is truly all of the Hnnnnnnng for those who want to be evil knights. I have never heard of the Pious Templar before, though.

That rendition is WHOOOOOH BUDDY crazy, I must say. Too much for a Base Class. Seriously. It would basically be either the casting plus the mount and smite like bland old pally, or just the class features, since it is so ridiculous.

It just seems so...one-sided to me.

I am trying to do a rework/remake/alteration that balances out the whole Black and White/Good and Evil that dominated it.
No, the Pariah is not meant to be Evil. Misunderstood, and in many cases a psychopath/sociopath, but not like "I will enslave the world and bend them low before me, so I can slit their throats and drink the blood of their virgin daughters" sort of thing...though the choice to be that is there.

As said, perhaps gentling it and making the base version just a more socially acceptable Pariah not bent on efficient killing and inflicting of pain.
Then make a Paladin PrC who is an elite protector, saving the innocent and upholding that which is good in the land. Provide a Divine counterpart and suddenly we have a party.

[toapat]

That rendition is WHOOOOOH BUDDY crazy.

no, its not. Its T3 If i remembered that last piece of errata. Ya, no really crazy shenanigens, there are still reasons to PrC out as well. Its big but its fine

[kennysmith1234]

no, its not. Its T3 If i remembered that last piece of errata. Ya, no really crazy shenanigens, there are still reasons to PrC out as well. Its big but its fine

Well, would you mind if it were compressed a bit for a PrC?
As base classes only go 5 levels, so too do PrCs only go 5, but DO have elite versions, as the Base classes do. Add some of the later features as Elite features. Level 15-20 would be Godlike.

Make it accessible to a couple melee classes of course, so it is not sorely limited to JUST divine casters or the protector. Oooh, that is what I should call that class!

[toapat]

Well, would you mind if it were compressed a bit for a PrC?
As base classes only go 5 levels, so too do PrCs only go 5, but DO have elite versions, as the Base classes do. Add some of the later features as Elite features. Level 15-20 would be Godlike.

Make it accessible to a couple melee classes of course, so it is not sorely limited to JUST divine casters or the protector. Oooh, that is what I should call that class!

yes, becaise PrCing the concept doesnt work. As ive said. Blackguard and Pious Templar only worked because they basically got everything paladin got due to shared class features

[kennysmith1234]

yes, becaise PrCing the concept doesnt work. As ive said. Blackguard and Pious Templar only worked because they basically got everything paladin got due to shared class features

I think I will just stick with a regular-ish pally PrC. You seem too far bent on placing the Pally in here.

[kennysmith1234]

Updated: Added descriptions (really short) to the PrCs, and added the Wilder.
Should there be an Incarnum Class?

[kennysmith1234]

Updated. I removed the Mystic. Added pretty pictures to the base classes.

I will begin plotting tables and stuff out soon.