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Dizlag
2007-02-09, 02:43 PM
Hey all,

I was wondering if a monk can take the feat Ability Focus (stunning fist) from the list of Monster Feats?

There are 535 questions in the Q&A thread and the first page hasn't been updated in a while. Forgive me if this was asked there somewhere in the 26+ pages. =)

Thanks in advance all!

Dizlag

Ramza00
2007-02-09, 02:45 PM
Yes

Insert random text for I have to have 10 characters and yes is only 3

Dizlag
2007-02-09, 02:48 PM
Thanks Ramza00! That's what I thought and I was gonna rule it that way anyways. Just wanted to make sure!

Dizlag

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-09, 02:48 PM
I dunno, you should analyze it yourself. Is Stunning Fist a special attack?

(Hint: yes. One can probably just think these things through rather than asking the internet for confirmation.)

NullAshton
2007-02-09, 03:02 PM
To support everyone else, there is a entry in the official FAQ that says that yes, ability focus works with a monk's stunning fist.

Person_Man
2007-02-09, 03:09 PM
Yes.

But why would you want to waste a feat on Ability Focus? Marginally increasing the DC of an attack isn't really worth it.

Matthew
2007-02-09, 04:35 PM
There are 535 questions in the Q&A thread and the first page hasn't been updated in a while. Forgive me if this was asked there somewhere in the 26+ pages. =)

Use the Search function if you are worried about that.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-09, 05:51 PM
Yes.

But why would you want to waste a feat on Ability Focus? Marginally increasing the DC of an attack isn't really worth it.

Amazing how we always find ourselves differing on point of view. For a monk who delivers stuns as his bread & butter, +2 to the dc I think would make a big difference.

Btw, my monk just crested up to 15th and I've got my feat choice down to either Ability Focus Stunning Fist or Elusive Target. I guess I'll put you down for Elusive Target. My stun dc is currently 23, but 25 sounds so much more intimidating.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-09, 05:53 PM
Elusive Target is way too good to pass up.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-09, 06:14 PM
Elusive Target is way too good to pass up.

:smallsmile: I almost wrote "no need for you to chime in BWL, because you're the one who told me about elusive target in the first place".

Okay, in the next session - the adventure's climax - the party will probably be ambushed by "the evil party". Unfortunately, 2 of our 5 players will be missing the session, which means we will be outnumbered.

Ability Focus Stunning Fist Pros:
1. keep some enemies stunned to offset the odds

Elusive Target Pros:
1. I do have a nice dream combo of combat reflexes - combat expertise - spring attack - improved trip. I could spring up to one of them, attack full defensively; I don't care if I hit or not but now my ac is really high. Then I continue to move past the rest of the foes, and all those who take their attack of opportunity and miss I trip and counterattack.
2. Get myself flanked and make my dodge opponent use his first attack on his ally.
3. One of the foes for sure has power attack, which I can offset.

Hmmm... maybe you're right.

Stephen_E
2007-02-10, 04:29 AM
Don't forget Elusive Target only cancels Power Attack from the target you selected to Dodge, and you select your Dodge target in your turn.

It would almost be worth it to spend a feat if there was a feat that allowed you to change/select your Dodge target as a immediate action. DM " The Rogue moves up to you, gaining flank, and attacks you", Player "Hold it. I make the Rogue my Dodge target as an immediate action". Much swearing then ensues from DM. :smallbiggrin:

Stephen

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-10, 04:42 AM
In fact, one of the Combat Focus feats from the PHBII lets you do just that (and has another benefit; I forget what it is).

Darkshade
2007-02-10, 07:13 AM
Amazing how we always find ourselves differing on point of view. For a monk who delivers stuns as his bread & butter, +2 to the dc I think would make a big difference.

Btw, my monk just crested up to 15th and I've got my feat choice down to either Ability Focus Stunning Fist or Elusive Target. I guess I'll put you down for Elusive Target. My stun dc is currently 23, but 25 sounds so much more intimidating.

if your campaign uses OA may I suggest taking all the feats necessary for Meditation of War Mastery from page 81.
another +2 to your stunning fist, and +2 to your other pressure point attacks.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-10, 09:39 AM
In fact, one of the Combat Focus feats from the PHBII lets you do just that (and has another benefit; I forget what it is).

I think the other benefit is that if you have 3 combat focus feats, your dodge benefit cruises up to +2 or something like that.

I totally want this feat, but to get it I have to first take the basic combat focus. Maybe if I break out of monk after level 16 and take 4 levels of fighter, I can spend the first 2 fighter bonus feats on these. Except ... except ... it doesn't really fit her personality to take a class that means she can never go back to monk.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-10, 05:41 PM
Maybe your DM can waive that restriction (it's silly and pointless).

If not well, Monk 16/Fighter 4. Nets you 16 BAB at 20th, too. and it's not like your character knows her classes, she just knows she's training to fight better.

Person_Man
2007-02-10, 06:09 PM
Amazing how we always find ourselves differing on point of view. For a monk who delivers stuns as his bread & butter, +2 to the dc I think would make a big difference.

Btw, my monk just crested up to 15th and I've got my feat choice down to either Ability Focus Stunning Fist or Elusive Target. I guess I'll put you down for Elusive Target. My stun dc is currently 23, but 25 sounds so much more intimidating.

Feats should only be taken if they scale with levels (Power Attack, anything that grants extra attacks) or grant special abilities that you can't otherwise gain with reasonably priced magic items (Elusive Target, Shock Trooper).

And pretty much any Monk with a good number of Stunning Fist should take Freezing the Lifeblood when they qualify for it (+10 BAB, so 14th level for a strait Monk, sooner for most multi-class Monks). This paralyzes their enemies for 1d4+1 rounds instead of Stunning them for 1 round, a far more powerful effect (make sure to carry a pick for all the Coup de Graces you'll be doing. It uses up a Stunning Fist use, but its not Stunning Fist, its a seperate ability.

So taking Ability Focus for Stunning Fist is on its face a bad choice, because it doesn't scale, doesn't grant a special ability, and it will be useless once its replaced by Freezing the Lifeblood.

Stephen_E
2007-02-10, 07:30 PM
Feats should only be taken if they scale with levels (Power Attack, anything that grants extra attacks) or grant special abilities that you can't otherwise gain with reasonably priced magic items (Elusive Target, Shock Trooper).

And pretty much any Monk with a good number of Stunning Fist should take Freezing the Lifeblood when they qualify for it (+10 BAB, so 14th level for a strait Monk, sooner for most multi-class Monks). This paralyzes their enemies for 1d4+1 rounds instead of Stunning them for 1 round, a far more powerful effect (make sure to carry a pick for all the Coup de Graces you'll be doing. It uses up a Stunning Fist use, but its not Stunning Fist, its a seperate ability.

So taking Ability Focus for Stunning Fist is on its face a bad choice, because it doesn't scale, doesn't grant a special ability, and it will be useless once its replaced by Freezing the Lifeblood.

Actually what I take from your post is that one should take "Freeze the Lifeblood" and then take Ability Focus on Freeze the Lifeblood.

While in general I agree regarding feats that scale, the exception IMHO are feats that give a bonus to Save type stuff that scales. Thus Ability Focus & Spell Penetration (including anything that increases CL) stuff are worthwhile. Feat increases to BAB aren't generally worth it because AC on opponents doesn't really scale.

Stephen

ken-do-nim
2007-02-10, 07:35 PM
Feats should only be taken if they scale with levels (Power Attack, anything that grants extra attacks) or grant special abilities that you can't otherwise gain with reasonably priced magic items (Elusive Target, Shock Trooper).


It is too simplistic to make blanket statements like that. Ability Focus improves your chances of success by 10%. So if you use it 10/day, you'll succeed one extra time. If you don't think that's useful enough, fine, but what if ability focus granted a +4? Would you take it then, or still say it didn't scale by level so forget it?



And pretty much any Monk with a good number of Stunning Fist should take Freezing the Lifeblood when they qualify for it (+10 BAB, so 14th level for a strait Monk, sooner for most multi-class Monks). This paralyzes their enemies for 1d4+1 rounds instead of Stunning them for 1 round, a far more powerful effect (make sure to carry a pick for all the Coup de Graces you'll be doing. It uses up a Stunning Fist use, but its not Stunning Fist, its a seperate ability.


Freezing the lifeblood only affects humanoids, so you have to look at the campaign you are in and determine if that type of opponent occurs often enough. In my case, it doesn't. We are just finishing Deep Horizons (monstrous humanoids, aberrations, elementals, outsiders) and moving on to Lord of the Iron Fortress & Bastion of Something or other. I doubt there will be any humanoids in this campaign's future. (As a monk, I am particularly worried, because I will have a hard time getting through outsider dr).



So taking Ability Focus for Stunning Fist is on its face a bad choice, because it doesn't scale, doesn't grant a special ability, and it will be useless once its replaced by Freezing the Lifeblood.

So in my summary, you have to decide if succeeding 1 out of 10 more times when you stun is worth a feat choice. (It certainly is you follow it up with Sun School)

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-02-10, 10:57 PM
Elusive Target is nice. But... Elusive Dance really sucks.


Elusive Dance

[General, Fighter]

(DR333 p88)

Perform (dance): 5 ranks


During your action, you may designate an opponent who may not make Attacks of Opportunity against you.
If you have the feat Dodge, your designated Dodge and Elusive Dance opponent must be the same creature.


EDIT: uhh. yah. You'r right Laser Bear guy. Wanted to gauge a reaction =_)

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-10, 11:08 PM
Um... how on earth is that better? AoOs are easily avoided via, say, Tumble. Meanwhile, Elusive target makes your enemies hit each other, negates Power Attack damage, and lets you trip people when you move away from them.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-11, 08:07 AM
Hey so I officially told my DM I'm going with Elusive Target. When I first mentioned the feat to him several months ago, he warned that I'd only get 1 of the abilities up front, so I'll see what he says now. He probably won't let me know until I show up for the next game day.

Well, just for fun, looking ahead to my 18th level feat, my front-runners are:
1. Ability Focus Stunning Fist
2. Deadly Defense (out of Complete Scoundrel) - since I use combat expertise all the time, might as well do more damage as I do it
3. Water Splitting Stone - help my unarmed attacks with getting through dr
4. Defensive Throw - nice synergy with elusive target, now my flanking dodge opponent automatically misses, hits his ally, then I trip him and counterattack. Only problem is that at these high levels everything is large, huge, gargantuan, etc. and I could get countertripped (though I can drop my kama)
5. Superior Unarmed Strike - if I haven't picked up a monk's belt and I multiclassed at 17th.

Her current feats are:
Human-Dodge
1-Mobility
M1-Improved Unarmed Strike
M1-Stunning Fist
M2-Combat Reflexes
3-Weapon Focus Unarmed Attack
6-Combat Expertise
M6-Improved Trip
9-Improved Natural Attack Unarmed Strike
12-Spring Attack
15-Elusive Target

Comments: I am still debating as to whether to go kensai starting at 17th, so if I do I need weapon focus & combat expertise. I use combat expertise and spring attack all the time, and they have a nice synergy with the 3rd benefit of elusive target.

Another switch I just started considering is going fighter at 17th. In this case, I would get a fighter bonus feat at 17th, 18th, and 20th, and those would be either:
F1-Combat Focus
F2-Combat Defense - to change dodge opponent as immediate action
F4-Combat Vigor - to get fast healing 4
or
F1-Deadly Defense (if it's a fighter bonus feat)
F2-Improved Critical Unarmed Strike
F4-Weapon Specialization Unarmed Strike

Thoughts?

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-11, 08:24 AM
Y'know what, take Psychic Warrior one less feat, psionic powers. Or Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2, for the most feats. I recommend the Combat Focus ones you have listed.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-11, 09:35 AM
Y'know what, take Psychic Warrior one less feat, psionic powers. Or Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2, for the most feats. I recommend the Combat Focus ones you have listed.

Quite the intriguing alternative. Fighter 4 of course gets me not only one more feat but also that 6 attack flurry. Psychic warrior 4 gets me psionic lion's charge, which combined even with the regular 5 attack flurry is awesome.

I've had many visions for this character, but the one I had stuck with the longest was monk 16/kensai 4 through 20. Kensai would net her holy hands. At 21 she would take the feat that gets through epic damage reduction, at 24 she'd take penetrate damage reduction silver and at 27 she'd take penetrate damage reduction cold-iron forged. Thus, at 27th level, her hands would penetrate magic, lawful, adamantine, holy, silver, cold-iron forged, and epic damage reduction while doing 4d8 + lots of extra bonuses depending upon whatever kensai powers she puts on it. Combined with a robe of eyes to see all possible opponents and a winged cloak, she can therefore get to any foe and damage them (well okay, a projected image could still fool her).

So I'll have to decide which vision works best. Thanks for the suggestions!

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-11, 09:38 AM
If the game is going epic, stick to Monk 20. Epic Bonus Feats are just that good, even if you only get them every 5 levels.

...actually, every 5 levels... bugger it, take Fighter or PsyWar or both. Or Kensai.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-11, 12:03 PM
If the game is going epic, stick to Monk 20. Epic Bonus Feats are just that good, even if you only get them every 5 levels.

...actually, every 5 levels... bugger it, take Fighter or PsyWar or both. Or Kensai.

Yeah, I want to talk to the game designer who decided that monks should only get an epic feat every 5 levels. Maybe hang him upside down over a cliff and make him talk :smallcool:

Well, I've still got a while to stew on this. First I've got to live past this next session after all, and try out elusive target for the first time (or whatever portions of it the DM lets me have).

the_tick_rules
2007-02-11, 03:23 PM
i'd reccommend pain touch from comlete warrior for extra umph from ya stunning attacks. it nauseates (makes your opponet unable to do anything but a single move action) for one round after they're stunned. The +2 to dc from ability focus does sound a bit mild for me, but hey it's your character. Oh and yeah you can take it. But have you taken inmproved natural attack yet? It's like natural spell for monks, if your a monk and don't take it your gonna be asked why?

ken-do-nim
2007-02-11, 04:03 PM
i'd reccommend pain touch from comlete warrior for extra umph from ya stunning attacks. it nauseates (makes your opponet unable to do anything but a single move action) for one round after they're stunned. The +2 to dc from ability focus does sound a bit mild for me, but hey it's your character. Oh and yeah you can take it. But have you taken inmproved natural attack yet? It's like natural spell for monks, if your a monk and don't take it your gonna be asked why?

Yeah I've got improved natural attack. As soon as I pick up a monk's belt, I jump to 4d8!

You know, I had my eye on pain touch back when I first got Sword & Fist. Back then I recall it had a wis19 prereq so I couldn't take it, but maybe now that's changed (and my periapt of wisdom puts me over anyway). So I'll consider it, thanks for reminding me.

Maybe +2 isn't enough, but I've got to tell you when I stun an opponent it changes everything. For instance, in a first round of combat against a big nasty, my monk usually moves up spring attacking; the rest of the party waits for her. If she manages to stun it, she runs around to its back to give a flank. If she doesn't, she rejoins the party. If the monster is stunned, the party can move up without fear of attacks of opportunity and surround it. Then on their next turns, they get full attacks. So pain touch would be sweet because when the party has moved up and surrounded it, it only gets a move action yet can't go anywhere because it is surrounded. But of course that's predicated on the stun working, hence the need for ability focus...

Too bad those ki straps in Sword & Fist that give a +5 to the stun dc aren't legal anymore.

Person_Man
2007-02-11, 04:24 PM
It is too simplistic to make blanket statements like that. Ability Focus improves your chances of success by 10%. So if you use it 10/day, you'll succeed one extra time. If you don't think that's useful enough, fine, but what if ability focus granted a +4? Would you take it then, or still say it didn't scale by level so forget it?

You've pretty much made my case for me Ken. Getting 1 extra successful Stunning fist use per day in exchange for a feat is a total waste. Compare it to Snap-Kick, Knock-Down, or Hold the Line, which give you an extra attack pretty much every other round. How is that not better? Even if Ability Focus gave you a +4 bonus (which it doesn't) getting extra attacks would be far better.

And I think you're nit-picking on Freezing the Lifeblood. Yes, it only works on humanoids. But the largest catagory of enemies out there. Unless your DM specifically tells you you're going to be playing in a humanoid-less campaign, its a pretty safe bet to take this Save or Lose power.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-11, 07:16 PM
You've pretty much made my case for me Ken. Getting 1 extra successful Stunning fist use per day in exchange for a feat is a total waste. Compare it to Snap-Kick, Knock-Down, or Hold the Line, which give you an extra attack pretty much every other round. How is that not better? Even if Ability Focus gave you a +4 bonus (which it doesn't) getting extra attacks would be far better.


Sad to say, I can't honestly say I'm familiar with snap-kick, knock-down, or hold the line. I'll have to look them up when I get home and report back. All I ever hear on this forum is leap attack this, shock troop that, so I'm more familiar with those :smallsmile:



And I think you're nit-picking on Freezing the Lifeblood. Yes, it only works on humanoids. But the largest catagory of enemies out there. Unless your DM specifically tells you you're going to be playing in a humanoid-less campaign, its a pretty safe bet to take this Save or Lose power.

Well as I said we're going through Lord of the Iron Fortress and Bastion of Broken Souls. All I know is that we're going to the outer planes. I'm trying to acquire a sacred evil outsider bane weapon. I doubt there will be too many humanoids. I read on the internet that at the end of Bastion we will have to fight a solar. My monk will do precisely one thing in that fight, which is dimension door the other party members next to the solar and say, "Okay, now you deal with it." No way she'll be able to hit that thing's armor class.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-11, 11:10 PM
Okay, as promised I took a look at Person_Man's suggested feats.

Snap-kick: couldn't find, but I did find "Roundabout kick". You get an extra attack if you get a critical. Well ... if the odds dictate that you get a critical every 30 attacks (figure 1 out of 20 then half of those odds successfully confirm), I feel like for me it's 1 out of 100. To make it more desirable you'd of course want improved critical unarmed strike, and roundabout kick also comes with a prerequisite of power attack, something I don't advise for monks because (a) they're at 3/4 BAB and (b) not using a two-handed weapon.

Knock-down: I couldn't find it. What book?

Hold the line: Attack of opportunity when you get charged. Honestly, I get charged in combat probably less than I get a critical. Most of the time, my character protects the party's rear, because as a monk with fast movement I can rush to the front and attack in one round anyway. Also keep in mind - and this is why the heedless charge ability of shock trooper is overrated - natural cavern floor counts as difficult terrain which negates charging.

Ability focus stunning fist is still looking good. Getting one more successful stun every 10 tries - which equates to roughly one more per session - helps a lot because stuns are so useful. Really the downside to investing in a stunning feat is that constructs/elementals/undead can't be stunned.

Actually another good feat granting extra attacks is close-quarters fighting. I must get improved grabbed at least twice a session.

Rigeld2
2007-02-11, 11:18 PM
Knock-down: I couldn't find it. What book?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown


Also keep in mind - and this is why the heedless charge ability of shock trooper is overrated - natural cavern floor counts as difficult terrain which negates charging.
Unless theres a path. And I dont often fight in natural caves; you must be special.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-02-12, 12:09 AM
Also keep in mind - and this is why the heedless charge ability of shock trooper is overrated - natural cavern floor counts as difficult terrain which negates charging.
Leap Attack. Problem solved.

Stephen_E
2007-02-12, 07:16 AM
You've pretty much made my case for me Ken. Getting 1 extra successful Stunning fist use per day in exchange for a feat is a total waste. Compare it to Snap-Kick, Knock-Down, or Hold the Line, which give you an extra attack pretty much every other round. How is that not better? Even if Ability Focus gave you a +4 bonus (which it doesn't) getting extra attacks would be far better.

And I think you're nit-picking on Freezing the Lifeblood. Yes, it only works on humanoids. But the largest catagory of enemies out there. Unless your DM specifically tells you you're going to be playing in a humanoid-less campaign, its a pretty safe bet to take this Save or Lose power.

Knock down is a 3.0 feat last I looked.

But basically you're missing the point. Sure, if he was on his own then one additional successful stunning fist a day might not be worth it, but he isn't on his own. Stunning Fist is a Team ability. Monk Stuns opponent, Rest of party charge up and whale on enemy, who has -2 AC and has lost his next turn. They also get into posistion to flank the hell out of him. Exit said monster.

I remember stunning a Black Dragon in my 1st attack once. It was supposed to be one of the big battles, but by the time he could act again all he wanted to do was run. With a team it is THAT dangerous.

Stephen

ken-do-nim
2007-02-12, 07:29 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown



That is a good feat. Not sure it's great for a monk though. It doesn't have those magical words elusive target does "and cannot be countertripped". When you go up against big things, they tend to win opposed trip checks.



Unless theres a path. And I dont often fight in natural caves; you must be special.

I just went through an Underdark adventure.

As for leap attack, you are aware that it requires a jump check? I believe you have to double the dc in difficult terrain because you can't get the running start. Of course, monks have such a high jump check they don't need to worry about that dc, but then again they don't usually have leap attack because they don't usually have power attack.

Thanks to Stephen_E for explaining stuns so well.

Oh, and I'm really thinking about Close Quarters Fighting now!

Rigeld2
2007-02-12, 07:35 AM
Knock down is a 3.0 feat last I looked.
Its in the 3.5 SRD. Its a 3.5 feat.

Person_Man
2007-02-12, 12:23 PM
Knock-Down is in the 3.5 SRD, right here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html). When combined with Improved Trip, it almost always gives you one or more extra attacks each turn, and now your enemy is Prone.

Snap-Kick is from the Tome of Battle. Whenever you make an attack, you gain 1 additional unarmed attack, and all attacks that round are at -2, and you only add 1/2 your Str bonus. It's great because it can be used with a standard attack or attacks of opportunity, or with your Flurry of Blows (assuming you're attacking very low AC enemies or you're high enough level so that the penalty doesn't matter).

Hold the Line is on the same SRD list as Knock-Down, and Complete Warrior. It gives you an attack of opportunity whenever a charging opponent enters a square you threaten, resolved BEFORE they attack. So it's pretty easy to get multiple extra attacks per combat. Combine with a reach weapon and you can also protect your friends. Combine with Knockback or its weaker cousin Pushback (Races of Stone or Miniatures handbook, either grants a free Bull Rush with a successful attack) for even greater effect.

Not to mention Elusive Target, Karmic Strike, Defensive Throw, Robilar's Gambit, Sidestep Charge, Frightful Presence, Mage Slayer, etc, etc.

Even if you don't have any expansion books, some of the best feats are right there in the SRD. And regardless of what feats you know about or don't, I think the overall point is clear. Melee characters should take feats that scale with levels or provide special abilities that you cannot otherwise gain through magic items. Getting marginal bonuses will result in marginal PC's. And that's fine, as long as you're happy being mediocre. But if someone else in the party is a spellcaster, you're going to be seriously far behind them at mid to high levels, because their spells scale with levels regardless of their feat selection.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-12, 01:22 PM
Knock-Down is in the 3.5 SRD, right here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html). When combined with Improved Trip, it almost always gives you one or more extra attacks each turn, and now your enemy is Prone.

Snap-Kick is from the Tome of Battle. Whenever you make an attack, you gain 1 additional unarmed attack, and all attacks that round are at -2, and you only add 1/2 your Str bonus. It's great because it can be used with a standard attack or attacks of opportunity, or with your Flurry of Blows (assuming you're attacking very low AC enemies or you're high enough level so that the penalty doesn't matter).

Hold the Line is on the same SRD list as Knock-Down, and Complete Warrior. It gives you an attack of opportunity whenever a charging opponent enters a square you threaten, resolved BEFORE they attack. So it's pretty easy to get multiple extra attacks per combat. Combine with a reach weapon and you can also protect your friends. Combine with Knockback or its weaker cousin Pushback (Races of Stone or Miniatures handbook, either grants a free Bull Rush with a successful attack) for even greater effect.

Not to mention Elusive Target, Karmic Strike, Defensive Throw, Robilar's Gambit, Sidestep Charge, Frightful Presence, Mage Slayer, etc, etc.

Even if you don't have any expansion books, some of the best feats are right there in the SRD. And regardless of what feats you know about or don't, I think the overall point is clear. Melee characters should take feats that scale with levels or provide special abilities that you cannot otherwise gain through magic items. Getting marginal bonuses will result in marginal PC's. And that's fine, as long as you're happy being mediocre. But if someone else in the party is a spellcaster, you're going to be seriously far behind them at mid to high levels, because their spells scale with levels regardless of their feat selection.

Time out. You can throw a lot of feat names out there, but please remember that monks don't get that many. I challenge thee, Person_Man, to present your ideal human monk feat recommendations, from levels 1 to 20 assuming straight monk.

Josh Inno
2007-02-12, 01:30 PM
Quick note to the OP: remember that you only get that free attack on someone you trip if you gave up an attack attempt to trip them. If you trip them as a reaction to them failing to trip you, or due to you having a feat that lets you get a free trip attempt, you don't get a free bash attack on them if you succeed at tripping them.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-12, 01:44 PM
Quick note to the OP: remember that you only get that free attack on someone you trip if you gave up an attack attempt to trip them. If you trip them as a reaction to them failing to trip you, or due to you having a feat that lets you get a free trip attempt, you don't get a free bash attack on them if you succeed at tripping them.

Are you saying that if you use say elusive target or defensive throw to trip someone who has just missed you, you don't get to use improved trip to get an immediate free attack? If so ... Bum-mer!

Person_Man
2007-02-12, 03:36 PM
Time out. You can throw a lot of feat names out there, but please remember that monks don't get that many. I challenge thee, Person_Man, to present your ideal human monk feat recommendations, from levels 1 to 20 assuming straight monk.

Well, that's like challenging me to create the ideal Expert or Aristocrat. Monks are a very weak class, so no matter how well you optimize them, they'll still be weak. Going into certain Monk prestige classes will help (Sacred Fist, Shou Disciple, Disciple of the Eye). But if for some reason you want to play a strait Monk, here a list of suggestions:

Bonus Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip.

Human: Touch of Golden Ice: Book of Exalted Deeds, Evil creatures that you hit with an unarmed attack must Save or take Dex damage. This feat rules at low levels. Even at high levels, enemies always have a 5% chance of rolling a natural 1 on their Save, and since Monks get a ton of attacks, it'll still be useful once every 1-5 rounds. But if you're starting your game at a mid levels, I'd drop it for something else.

1st: Aberration Blood: Lords of Madness, Gives you a tiny bonus to a Skill. But required for...

3rd: Inhuman Reach: LoM, adds +5 ft to your natural reach, but you take -1 on your melee attack rolls. Now whenever someone without reach wants to hit you with a melee attack, they have to get past your reach. If you're not using Touch of Golden Ice, Snap Kick, or Freezing the Lifeblood, then Exotic Weapon Prof with a Spiked chain is a much better idea. Or if you have enough feats, get both for 20 ft reach.

6th: Hold the Line: SRD, Free AoO whenever someone charges you. Thanks to your reach, most creatures will have to take two AoO when they charge you. Make them Trip Attacks as needed.

9th: Knock-Down: SRD, Free Trip Attack when you deal 10+ points of damage, essentially adding an extra attack each round. Make sure you buy a Monk's belt. Now you don't have to make Trip Attacks, they happen automatically. It's now insanely difficult for someone to attack you in melee combat, plus your saves are high and you have Evasion and will soon have SR, so its very hard to hurt you.

12th: Mage Slayer: Complete Arcane, Spellcasters you threaten can't cast defensively, and since you have reach, they can't take a 5' step to get out of your threatened area. Your a Monk, your job is to kill spellcasters. Its worth mentioning that most Monks should head into a full BAB class after 11th level when their Flurry tops out.

15th: Freezing the Lifeblood: Complete Warrior, Paralyzes humanoid opponents for 1d4+1 round instead of Stunning them. Wildly useful Save or Lose power.

18th: Snap Kick: Tome of Battle, Extra unarmed attack every time you make an unarmed attack (inlcuding AoO), -2 to all attacks that round.


Honorable mentions, in no particular order:

Nymph's Kiss: BoED, 1 bonus Skill point per level, some other minor bonuses. If you have enough Skill points, Monks can easily be the party scout and face. Tumble should always be maxed out. And there are some useful Skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel.

Frigthtful Presence: Draconomicon, gives you a Dragon's Frightful Presence. Only useful if you have a high Cha, which Monks rarely have. But if you do have a high Cha and take levels of Disciple of the Eye, this power is awesome, because it has an area of effect, Fear effects stack, it can make your enemies run away, and it effects Saving Throws (keeping Touch of Golden Ice useful). Consider Monk 6/Disciple of the Eye 5.

Elusive Target: Complete Warrior, Negates Power Attack (which will very often save your life if your DM uses it regularly), and can easily cause even more AoO various ways.

Robilar's Gambit: PHBII, free AoO whenever your enemy tries to hit you.

Karmic Strike: Comp Warrior, -4 AC, free AoO when your enemy hits you. Fun when combined with a Psychic Warrior’s Claws of the Beast and Claws of the Vampire.

Sidestep Charge: SRD, +4 AC vs. charge attacks, free AoO if they miss. This feat is useless if you have reach, as your enemies will never hit you. But it’s great when combined with Rob’s Gambit, Karmic Strike, Hold the Line, Knock-Down, and Snap-Kick or Double Hit.

Defensive Throw: Comp Warrior, if your designated Dodge enemy tries to hit you and misses, you get a free Trip attempt. Great for high AC tanks or when combined with Elusive Target.

Pressure Point Strike: Dragon #336, uses Stunning Fist to negate conditions like a Dragon Shaman.

Headlong Rush: Races of Faerun, Orcish blood only, double damage on a charge, but provokes AoO from everyone who threatens you. Headlong Rush + Improved Trip + Knock-Down + Snap Kick = 4 double damage attacks on a charge. Throw in Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and Inhuman Reach, and things get really funny.

Extended Reach: Savage Species, +5 ft. reach. Requires non-rigid appendages, such as tentacles, feelers, or psuedopods. Inhuman Reach specifically says that your arms become like tentacles.

Willing Deformity + Deformity Tall: Heroes of Horror, +5 ft. reach, -1 AC and -2 Hide. While superior to Inhuman Reach, it requires that you be Evil.

Catfolk Pounce: Races of Destiny, grants Pounce.


Writing this post has reminded me about how much I dislike Monks. I love the fluff. Certain Monk/PrC builds are good. But lack of full BAB makes any Power Attack combo cruddy. Lack precious bonus feats makes serious feat synergy unattainable. Lack of armor and hit points prevent them from being a good tank. In my opinion, there is nothing that a Monk can do that some other class combination can’t do better.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-12, 04:03 PM
18th: Snap Kick: Tome of Battle, Extra unarmed attack every time you make an unarmed attack (inlcuding AoO), -2 to all attacks that round.

Look again: Snap Kick is any attack, including martial strikes.

Person_Man
2007-02-12, 04:12 PM
Look again: Snap Kick is any attack, including martial strikes.

Whoops, right you are. So its even more valuable for Monks or any melee build with Improved Unarmed Strike. Thanks Fax.

Stephen_E
2007-02-12, 05:42 PM
Knock-Down is in the 3.5 SRD, right here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html). When combined with Improved Trip, it almost always gives you one or more extra attacks each turn, and now your enemy is Prone..

As mentioned it's debated as to whether Improved Trip stacks with it, and even if it does, having run many trip monkeys I'm aware of the reality of your blithe "and now your enemy is prone". The reality often been "and now you're without a weapon", or "and your enemy stands there untripped" or as more likely at higher levels "and not been a complte idiot, you refrain from trying to trip the monster who is larger, has more legs, and is vastly stronger than you".


Snap-Kick is from the Tome of Battle. Whenever you make an attack, you gain 1 additional unarmed attack, and all attacks that round are at -2, and you only add 1/2 your Str bonus. It's great because it can be used with a standard attack or attacks of opportunity, or with your Flurry of Blows (assuming you're attacking very low AC enemies or you're high enough level so that the penalty doesn't matter). .

Right, a feat that gives the monk another chance to swing and miss. When you don't have full BAB, taking penalties to hit (especially on a MAD character) is really dodgy, and you're reducing your damage at the same time. Whooeee, be still my beating heart.


Hold the Line is on the same SRD list as Knock-Down, and Complete Warrior. It gives you an attack of opportunity whenever a charging opponent enters a square you threaten, resolved BEFORE they attack. So it's pretty easy to get multiple extra attacks per combat. Combine with a reach weapon and you can also protect your friends. Combine with Knockback or its weaker cousin Pushback (Races of Stone or Miniatures handbook, either grants a free Bull Rush with a successful attack) for even greater effect..

Actually as someone else pointed out, you get sod all extra attacks, since IME (and obviously other peoples experiance as well) you don't get charged much, and even if they do charge you, after you use Hold the Line the 1st time, the rest don't charge you, they simply move up and whack you.


Not to mention Elusive Target, Karmic Strike, Defensive Throw, Robilar's Gambit, Sidestep Charge, Frightful Presence, Mage Slayer, etc, etc.

Even if you don't have any expansion books, some of the best feats are right there in the SRD. And regardless of what feats you know about or don't, I think the overall point is clear. Melee characters should take feats that scale with levels or provide special abilities that you cannot otherwise gain through magic items. Getting marginal bonuses will result in marginal PC's. And that's fine, as long as you're happy being mediocre. But if someone else in the party is a spellcaster, you're going to be seriously far behind them at mid to high levels, because their spells scale with levels regardless of their feat selection.

Making a frequently used special attack, which benifits the entire party, more likely to work is actually quite a strong move. Gaining more marginal attacks isn't, but then from your comments elsewhere regarding Monks, you seem to have liitle feel for how they work and try an treat them as simply a weak Fighter.

Stephen

ken-do-nim
2007-02-12, 08:09 PM
First of all, I'd like to say that Person_Man is officially the king of rare and obscure feats (no matter how much he claims many of them are in the srd - who looks at the divine section?). But for those of us who don't own Lords of Madness, any of the races books, tome of blood (shame, shame, I know), heroes of this or that, etc. it's all new to me. Good to see those books have some merit. Who knew that humans could get extended reach?

Second, I think what is missing from this debate is actual experience. I think some feats look good on paper, but in actual game play they may not be as good. Take improved trip for instance. You can focus on the positive - rah rah a free attack after I trip him! - or the negative, boo hoo I've just been forced to drop my weapon. Another good example is karmic strike. A downside that may not occur to you at first glance is the fact that if you don't have reach to your foe, you don't get those extra attacks. Even with 10 foot reach, there will be many foes huge-sized and up that attack from their maximum range (or 5 foot step away after the first karmic strike counterattack).

So I ask the masses (who of course are hanging on every word in this thread), has anybody actually played a monk who has taken ability focus stunning fist? Did you think it helped?

One other thing I wanted to mention was worship of the almighty "extra attack". I agree with Stephen_E about his assessment of snap kick, albeit with the caveat that I'm sure none of the 3 of us have actually used it. But I'm guessing if you do the math against a foe with a decent armor class, the one attack you're bound to miss due to the -2 plus the 1/2 strength damage counteracts the extra attack. Now close-quarters fighting, on the other hand, grants an extra attack that can also save you from being grappled, which is nice.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-12, 08:39 PM
Are you saying that if you use say elusive target or defensive throw to trip someone who has just missed you, you don't get to use improved trip to get an immediate free attack? If so ... Bum-mer!

I asked Customer Service:



The feat Elusive Target's benefit #3 allows a trip attempt against someone who misses on an attack of opportunity against you as you pass by. The feat Defensive Throw allows a trip attempt against your dodge opponent when he attacks you and misses. In either case, do you get the benefit of the improved trip feat of the counterattack after a successful trip?


The reply:



Thank you for contacting us.
If you have improved trip, then sure you do. Otherwise you do not.

I hope this information is useful.
Good Gaming!

Chris.
Customer Service Supervisor
Wizards of the Coast



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