Two Swords are Better Than One[Feats]

[TheOOB]

I like TWF, TWF sucks for most characters, I'm going to try to fix that with a few feats, lets see how it goes.

Flashing Steel
You are capable of beating down your opponent with a flurry of blades
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +6, Two-Weapon Fighting,
Benefit: If you hit and deal damage with both the weapon in your main hand and your off-hand with the same action, or both ends of a double weapon, you immediatly gain an extra attack agienst any creature within reach. This attack can be with either weapon (or either end of the double weapon) and must be made immediatly after your action. Use your full base attack bonus on this attack. This ability can only be used once a round.

Off-Hand Parry
You are adept at using your off-hand weapon to parry attacks
Prerequisites: Int 13+, Dex 13+, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Combat Expertise
Benefit: When using the combat expertise feat while two-weapon fighting you only apply the penalty to attack rolls to attacks made with your off-hand weapon. You must make at least one attack with your off-hand weapon to gain any benefit from this feat.

Balance of Strength
You can balance your strength equally between two weapons
Prerequisites: Dex 15+, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: When fighting with two-weapons you apply your full strength bonus to damage to both weapons. In addition you reduce any penalties for fighting with two-weapons by 1(to a minimum of 0).
Normal: You only use half your strength bonus to damage on attacks with your off-hand while two-weapon fighting.

Coordinated Strikes
You are better able to time attacks with both your weapons
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: You may make a single attack with both your main and off-hand weapons as a standard action. In addition you reduce any penalties for fighting with two-weapons by 1(to a minimum of 0).

[Lord Iames Osari]

Heh, seems like everybody and their brother wants to fix TWF. Here's my version (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33436), and I'm sure Matthew will link to his as well.

[magic8BALL]

I like the flashing steel feat there... but I love Iames' fix for TWF... so to modify flashing steel for that, you'd pullthe ITWF prereq (as that feat no longer exists) and I'd probly boost STR to 15+... like you don't have that anyway. Yes, it's still a bit feat heafty, but its an exrta attack a round that stacks with haste, c'mon!

[Lord Iames Osari]

Regarding the feats themselves, I have to say I'm not sure what you're trying to model with Off-Hand Parry. From my experience as a LARPer who prefers to fight with two weapons, I can say that when using your off-hand weapon as a defense, you're not trying to hit your opponent with that weapon.

I also like the Flashing Steel feat.

[TheOOB]

Hmm, I like Iames fix for TWF too.

I modeled flashing steel after the rend or rake ability some creatures have where they gain an extra attack under certain circumstances.

I relook at off-hand parry and I'm doing to change it, removing the dodge bonus but making it so the combat expertise penalty only applies to your off-hand, that way a TWF could feasibly use combat expertise on a regular basis without sacrificing a great deal of offense.

Also i took away the power attack and cleave requirement for flashing steel, I belive the feat should be more widely avaible, and powerattack isn't always the best feat for TWF.

[Icewalker]

Yeah, I like Iames' version as well, in my opinion it is certainly better than the ones in the PHB. As for yours OOB, they seem a little overpowered, particularly Balance of Strength, as it reduces the minus to 1 and allows a str heavy fighter to deal a lot more damage. I'm not great at measuring that, so don't take my word for it, but thats what I'd say.

[Matthew]

Flashing Steel is an interesting Feat. I am not sure that a lack of attacks on a Full Round Action is the Two Weapon Fighter's problem, but this seems a reasonable.

Off Hand Parry seems a little powerful to me, as it means a -2 Primary Hand Attack Penalty for a potential +20 AC for Weapon and Shield and Two Weapon Fighing Characters.

Balance of Strength is a good idea, but then you would expect me to say that, since I made almost the exact same Feat called Even Handed (the difference being that it works for Two Handed Fighting as well).

Co-ordinated Strike is much like my Mobile Two Weapon Fighting, but why reduce the penalties? The Attack Penalties for Two Weapon Fighting are almost always better kept, in my opinion.


Heh, seems like everybody and their brother wants to fix TWF. Here's my version (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33436), and I'm sure Matthew will link to his as well.

Heh, yes indeed; here's the Feat heavy Two Weapon Fighting Alternative:

Even Handed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1793539#post1793539)
Mobile Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1798151#post1798151)
Two Weapon Fighting (Alternate) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31337)

and

Two Weapon Defence (Alternate) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31338)
Block (Alternate) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34243)

[Assasinater]

I liked much of your ideas on twf; though as Matthew said, Off-hand Parry may need a little bit fixing.

Hmm, all this made me to think about some twf feats as well...

Double Disarm
Prerequisites: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Disarm
Benefit: When attempting a disarm, you may sacrifice an off-hand attack to get an additional +4 bonus to your disarm roll. If the off-hand weapon is a light weapon, the bonus is reduced to +2.

Double Sunder
Prerequisites: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Sunder
Benefit: When attempting a sunder, you may sacrifice an off-hand attack to make an additional sunder attempt at the same object. If both of them are successful, you gain +2 bonus to both damage rolls.

[Morty]

I don't think adding another feats is very good idea, TWF is already feat-heavy. I'd rather change the rules somehow, or alter the original TWF tree. Those feats are good though, I especially like Balance of Strenght and Coordinated Strikes.

[TheOOB]

Off Hand Parry seems a little powerful to me, as it means a -2 Primary Hand Attack Penalty for a potential +20 AC for Weapon and Shield and Two Weapon Fighing Characters.

Keep in mind, combat expertise only allows you to add up to 5 AC, which is a huge limiting factor.

I think these feats would be best used in Iames version where TWF basically includes the effects of ITWF, GTWF, and the epic one as well.

I thought that the unique effects of corridinated strike and balance of strength where a bit too little for a feat in my mind, so I thought reducing the penalty wouldn't hurt, especially when both of those abilities are something that TWF needs.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Well, Balanced Strike has a very similar effect to my Ambidexterity feat, as reworded by magic8BALL.

[Matthew]

Keep in mind, combat expertise only allows you to add up to 5 AC, which is a huge limiting factor.

I think these feats would be best used in Iames version where TWF basically includes the effects of ITWF, GTWF, and the epic one as well.

I thought that the unique effects of corridinated strike and balance of strength where a bit too little for a feat in my mind, so I thought reducing the penalty wouldn't hurt, especially when both of those abilities are something that TWF needs.

Fair enough, but it seems quite strange that this does not work with Improved Combat Expertise (otherwise known as Superior Expertise (http:///?http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#superiorExpertise)). If that is the intent, then you might consider adding a clause that specifically prohibits its use.

[Yuudai]

twf is powerful enough imo but then agian thats cause my frriend abuses it

[Lord Iames Osari]

Saying something is too powerful because it's being abused kind of undermines your argument. Also, TWF really isn't that great.

[Roderick_BR]

The complete warrior, or adventurer has a Two Weapon Rend feat. There's also an Off-hand parry on Sword & Fist. Gotta check if it's in the completes.
Balance of Strenght is an interesting effect.

[Siberys]

The complete warrior, or adventurer has a Two Weapon Rend feat. There's also an Off-hand parry on Sword & Fist. Gotta check if it's in the completes.
Balance of Strenght is an interesting effect.

Two Weapon Rend is in PHBII, but the effect from Flashing steel is quite different.

[Daracaex]

Iames, I took a look through that thread you posted in the second post here, and I saw someone who said something about two-weapon fighting with no penalty being very overpowered? I thought I'd just point out that the monk effectively does the same thing with its Flurry of Blows. The monk gets an extra attack at full BAB with no penalty at 9th level, and two extra attacks at 11th. So how overpowered could two-weapon fighting be?

[Lord Iames Osari]

I'd advise you to direct that question to Matthew, who I believe was the person who raised that objection in the first place.

[Matthew]

Indeed, and Overpowered in that context was not the objection. There is currently only one Prestige Class that eliminates all Two Weapon Fighting Penalties. My objection is that if you fix everything about Two Weapon Fighting AND remove the penalties then that is too much.

[Were-Sandwich]

The problem isn't coming up with house rules to fix TWf in your campaign. Its getting your DM to house-rule fixes for TWF in his campaign, or so I've found.

[Matthew]

Heh. More than likely. Probably due to bad memories of Two Weapon Fighting abuse in (A)D&D 2.x (and I mean Munchking type misunderstanding the rules abuse as well as Two Weapon Fighting being plainly broken compared to the other choices in that system).

[bosssmiley]

Aren't there already a bunch of 2-weapon fighting feats (not to mention the tactical feats) in CW and PHB2 to fix the - supposedly sub-optimal - TWF style?
And if all else fails: Dervish.

[Matthew]

Yeah, but they aren't very good and don't really address the core problems, which are:

Full Attack Action Dependency
Number of Feats Required
Off Hand Damage Reduction
Multiple Attribute Dependency