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Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-10, 01:06 AM
I've read that it's a bad feat... why?

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-02-10, 01:08 AM
I've read that it's a bad feat... why?

Because in many campaigns, getting an opportunity to use it is a problem.

Bookman
2007-02-10, 01:08 AM
My guess is it's the theory "How often to you drop more then 1 opponent to 0 HP in a round?" I would imagine not often

Raistlin1040
2007-02-10, 01:09 AM
I use it. Not super often but enough to be a useful choice for a fighter.

Quietus
2007-02-10, 01:15 AM
If you happen to be going into a very war-modelled campaign, it's great to have. And any DM worth his salt will, if you take it, occasionally throw huge masses of small enemies at you just so you can show off your Hulk Smashiness. But in general, if your fights rarely have more than four enemies, you aren't going to be using it very often at all.

Thomas
2007-02-10, 01:22 AM
It's only really useful against opponents who have no more hit points than your minimum damage. That's a pretty rare kind of opponent.

Besides, all those opponents have to be within 5 feet of you, mostly.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-02-10, 01:26 AM
Fights (especially melees) against huge swarms are a pain to DM and slow to play, and they're when Great Cleave comes in; otherwise it's occasionally, barely, useful.

oriong
2007-02-10, 01:28 AM
And typically great cleave just means those fights go faster, if the opponent is weak enough that great cleave helps, then he's too weak to be a challenge without it.

Thomas
2007-02-10, 01:28 AM
Encounters with 12+ opponents are a pretty bad idea anyway; they'll never be an appropriate challenge, basically.

Quietus
2007-02-10, 01:36 AM
Perhaps they wont' be a challenge, but they may be thematically appropriate. If you're invading a place where the BBEG is, and he has a small army at his disposal, a melee buff that's sucked a potion of enlarge person can wade in and great cleave his way through a great many ranks. The intimidation factor of that goes through the roof. No, it won't ever make a huge difference - you'd win anyway. But it makes things go faster, FEELS great to do, and on the rare occasions that you do something awesome in a fight, it's great fun to tear down three or four people in a row.

Seatbelt
2007-02-10, 01:46 AM
Yeah what they said. Cleve, however, is totally worth it. Free extra attack after I drop a guy? Sure. Why not.

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-10, 01:51 AM
Great Cleave is great in certain situations but not really worth a feat unless you are a fighter (you get enough extra in the first place).

A table top group I was playing with once had had a fighter (level 20) manage to kill an entire fielded army on his own in 1 round. We were playing that a 1 is equal to -10 and a 20 is equal to +30. It was an army of level 1 warriors. 5,000 of them.

Needless to say, we won that war. The other 4 armies surrendered on the spot.

oriong
2007-02-10, 01:58 AM
...how did that happen, legally speaking? I mean, I'm fairly sure you didn't make 5,000 rolls and I know there's no way he would have suceeded at every one of them.

EDIT: not to mention that those 5,000 enemies could not have fit inside the character's threatened area. Even with a reach weapon and Supreme Cleave.

Thomas
2007-02-10, 02:03 AM
Er, how can you reach them? You can kill, at most, 9 people in a round if you have 5-ft. reach, or 24 if you have 10-ft. reach.

That's a pretty pathetic army, anyway. No officers, nothing?

Edit:

...how did that happen, legally speaking? I mean, I'm fairly sure you didn't make 5,000 rolls and I know there's no way he would have suceeded at every one of them.

I think that's where the 1 = -10 comes in; if it's not an automatic failure, and you'd still hit them at attack bonus -10...

Still, the reach issue makes the whole situation pretty ridiculous.

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-10, 02:08 AM
I forgot that we had house ruled Great Cleave to "You can take a single 5 foot step after killing a target". So you kill guy number 1 and step into his square and kill the guy behind him (and so on until all of them are dead).

Stupid me for forgetting to post that (I forgot that we had housruled it and that wasn't how the feat is supposed to work).

oriong
2007-02-10, 02:10 AM
That strikes me as a little...weird to be honest. That means the guy probably moved several times his actual speed while still slaughtering people, all done without even suffering attacks of opportunity.

The_Snark
2007-02-10, 02:11 AM
It does seem a little weird. But then, the wizard's solution would have to cause large numbers of them to die of fright, all at once, which seems equally weird to me.

Stop the fighter/wizard double standard!

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-10, 02:15 AM
Yeah. It does. And you can cross the world in 6 seconds if you have the horses lined up correctly. Or accelerate a quarterstaff to the speed of light with enough commoners. Or Punch a tree and have a pile of quarter staffs, or better yet you punch a castles drawbridge. Or speak the complete works of shakesphere as a free action if you have them memorized.

Quietus
2007-02-10, 02:18 AM
Yeah - besides, there's Supreme Cleave, or whatever they call it, that gives you the ability to make a single 5-foot step between Cleave attempts, but still limits you to a single 5-foot step per turn.

Assuming you were using an oversized Spiked Chain, after drinking a potion of Enlarge Person, with Great Cleave, you would have a 20-foot reach. This means you can kill 80 people in a single turn, assuming you hit all of them. If you include a single five-foot step, that's 95 if you step diagonally. Still frightening, but not .... well, not what you described.

TheOOB
2007-02-10, 03:07 AM
Any time your facing enough weak foes where this feat would be useful they a)probally are so weak that they can't do enough damage to make you need to kill them all fast and b) the wizard can probally kill them all with a single spell slot (fireball anyone).

Thomas
2007-02-10, 03:09 AM
I forgot that we had house ruled Great Cleave to "You can take a single 5 foot step after killing a target". So you kill guy number 1 and step into his square and kill the guy behind him (and so on until all of them are dead).

Stupid me for forgetting to post that (I forgot that we had housruled it and that wasn't how the feat is supposed to work).

Well, your story illustrates perfectly well why that's a stupid houserule.

Allowing ONE 5-foot step at SOME point between attacks during a Great Cleave is reasonable (it was a class feature of some prestige class somewhere), but that's it.


I don't have anything against characters who can kill an army, but doing it in 6 seconds with a feat you can get at a very low level is just too much.

Behold_the_Void
2007-02-10, 03:23 AM
Armies should never be all level 1 warrior mooks anyway. Heroes of Battle give great examples of what a powerful high fantasy army looks like, and they can be quite frightening.

Thomas
2007-02-10, 03:59 AM
Not frightening, exactly, but yeah; they shouldn't be first-level mooks.

In fact, the basic footman could just as easily be 6th-level, because levels are nothing more than a game mechanic to represent the dramatic importance of particular NPCs, taking into account the power of the PCs. If a squad of regular footmen should in the DM's opinion be a challenge to a 10th-level party, then they can all be 5th- or 6th-level ...

Personally, I don't like presenting professional soldiers as useless mooks anyway. Warrior 1 is fine for village militia who have no combat experience whatsoever, but that's about.

brian c
2007-02-10, 02:59 PM
I like great cleave at least as flavor; you could also be surrounded by many low-hp but dangerous enemies, if they have some sort of special ability. In that case it's to your advantage to kill as many of them as possible as quickly as possible.

Great cleave is also a prereq for frenzied berserker, and probably one or two other PrCs.

Quietus
2007-02-10, 03:05 PM
Great cleave isn't a requirement for FB. Power Attack, Cleave, Destructive Rage, Intimidating Rage are.

Ted_Stryker
2007-02-10, 03:16 PM
I'll second the "Area of Effect spell" point. A wiz/sorc can be at least as efficient in dealing with weenies as a Great Cleaver, if not more so.

cupkeyk
2007-02-10, 03:34 PM
Great Cleave is good for mounted combatants, because you should be killing one opponent at a time with you spirited charge. Since you are dropping all your iterative attacks for greater power with a single strike then you might as well get great cleave and skewer as many of them as you can. With Cavalry Charger and Shock Trooper with the Mounted tree, you should be doing a hundred damage at average, by level ten, which should be the average hitpoints of what you will be facing. So great cleave as soon as you finish three feat trees.
LOLz

Saph
2007-02-10, 04:28 PM
Great Cleave is nice to have at low levels, and I've seen it used effectively several times. When you're at 1st-4th level and going up against lots of level 1 warriors, it can be very very helpful. A 1st-level warrior is still a threat to low-level characters, especially if they're an orc or something with a +3 Strength modifier. Great Cleave lets you cut them down fast instead of taking down 1 per turn. Unfortunately, you can't tell in advance whether it's going to be useful, or a waste of a feat, which makes it a bit of a risky pick. I wouldn't take it myself, but the dwarf fighter in our party has made good use of it on three occasions.

I've also seen a PC group wiped out BY Great Cleave. An enemy Frenzied Berserker got into the middle of the PCs and . . . yeah, you can figure out the rest. Three out of five went down in one round, the remaining ones the round after.

- Saph

Arceliar
2007-02-10, 04:36 PM
There are a number of things to consider with Great Cleave actually...

As Saph pointed out, a frenzied berserker can be deadly with it. This is especially true with weapons that deal high critical damage, such as a Scythe. If a FB uses a scythe while in frenzy and rage, and puts that extra +7 to attack rolls into power attack without touching anything else, they can deal +38-39 damage on each attack roll without sacrificing their chances of hitting. With a scythe and a x4 critical multiplier, that can be rather devastating. If the FB has improved critical, it's not too unlikely to get 2 or even 3 criticals in a lucky round. Against opponents slightly lower level this can be a great opportunity for using Great Cleave.

oriong
2007-02-10, 04:41 PM
Actually it's really unlikely to get two criticals in a round, and practically impossible to get 3. I don't think even a 18-20 range base crit weapon like a scimitar or falchion will significantly modify the usefulness of Great Cleave.

Thomas
2007-02-10, 05:10 PM
Critical range 19-20, odds of getting no critical threats...

1 attack: 90%
2 attacks: 81%
3 attacks: 72.9%
4 attacks: 65.61%
5 attacks: 59.049%
6 attacks: 53.1441%
7 attacks: 47.82969%
...

clericwithnogod
2007-02-10, 05:17 PM
Actually, our current campaign's fighter gets quite a bit of use from this.

Combined with those suboptimal direct damage spells like fireball, burst of flame and such to soften the enemies up, he gets the killing blow on mobs quite frequently - killing 3 or 4 things at a time isn't uncommon. Add in a Haste or Flame Strike from the cleric and some supplemental cleric slashing and stuff gets Cleaved and Great Cleaved all the time. Only thing that messes it up is when he wins init and impatiently runs into a crowd before anyone can cast (particularly as he has no charge-related feats or abilities to make this worthwhile) which results in dead fighter.

EDIT: Haboob and Holy Storm also work well for whittling away at things. Holy Storm leaves your Fighter unaffected so it can be dropped anywhere and Haboob obscures vision and can push things into your Fighter's blade.

CockroachTeaParty
2007-02-10, 05:21 PM
What if you houseruled that Great Cleave allowed you to do weapon damage to swarms? Situational, still, but it adds some utility.

Dihan
2007-02-10, 05:30 PM
Great Cleave is good for one thing: Great Cleavage!

Thomas
2007-02-10, 06:24 PM
Great Cleave is good for one thing: Great Cleavage!

Ouch. Just ouch.

Punokel Kaessir
2007-02-11, 12:57 AM
You need to be high level, but if you are powerful enough to get a keen vorpal sword (Epic level I think, for the +6 or 7 magical bonus) and give it to a hasted character with full base attack bonus.......... I think it could be deadly.

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-11, 01:04 AM
People seem to make this mistake quite often: Vorpal only works on a natural 20. No matter what the critical range on a weapon is.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-02-11, 01:16 AM
Or accelerate a quarterstaff to the speed of light with enough commoners.
Wait, what?
I understood the rest of it...but this I don't get. Do they, like, pass it to each other?

Fax Celestis
2007-02-11, 01:24 AM
You can pass an object as a free action, and even a hard-ass DM will give someone one free action a round.

Get a line of commoners, as long as you like. Have them pass the quarterstaff to each other (a free action), and watch as the quarterstaff traverses the line in just six seconds.

Now, get a line of commoners that's very very very long. You have a quarterstaff who's speeds approach c.

oriong
2007-02-11, 01:26 AM
Probably takes a move action to hand off an object to someone else, therefore you just get them in a row, and since they all have two move actions give it down a line until the quarterstaff has moved far enough in the single round to break the light barrier.

Some of the examples don't work though, like the one with the quarterstaffs or the complete works of shakespere.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-02-11, 01:28 AM
Ah, but then there's the whole Far Shot to [star name].

The_Snark
2007-02-11, 01:53 AM
What about the initiative order in a Commoner Matter Accelerator? You can't delay forever, you know. As long as we're talking strict, rules-override-common-sense gimmicks.

Although readied actions might do the trick.

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-11, 02:12 AM
Some of the examples don't work though, like the one with the quarterstaffs or the complete works of shakespere.

Quarter staffs are free so they take no time to craft. They are made from wood. You touch the door and instantly it is turned into a quarterstaff.

As for the speaking one, speaking is a free action and no where do the rules state how long you can speak for, so you could recite something incredible long as a free action.

oriong
2007-02-11, 02:38 AM
Quarter staffs are free so they take no time to craft. They are made from wood. You touch the door and instantly it is turned into a quarterstaff.

Wrong. There are no craft checks that have intervals of less than a day. All that the 'free' status means is that quarterstaffs just take 1 day, it's even possible to take longer by failing the DC 12 craft check that's required to make it.


As for the speaking one, speaking is a free action and no where do the rules state how long you can speak for, so you could recite something incredible long as a free action.

Also not true:

"In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isnít your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action."

cupkeyk
2007-02-11, 04:59 AM
Isn't a Falchion a 17-20. So if keen or improved crit'ed it would be 14-20? That's Forty % of the time which is pretty reliable.

Zincorium
2007-02-11, 06:23 AM
Isn't a Falchion a 17-20. So if keen or improved crit'ed it would be 14-20? That's Forty % of the time which is pretty reliable.

Y'know, considering how easy to look up and commonly found both of those rules are, You'd think they'd be easier to get right. A falchion has an 18-20 crit range. Check me on it, it's in both the PHB and the SRD. There are no core weapons with a 17-20 crit range, and the only non-core ones I can think of are also in 3.0 books.

Also, even if it did, 17-20 is four numbers, 17-18-19-20, so a doubling of it via keen or improved critical would then be eight numbers. Logical right? That's 13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20, or 13-20. As it is, a falchion with improved critical or keen is 15-20, which is not a bad threat range at all. However, given that you do lower average damage than with a greatsword, you have to confirm any critical threats you do roll to actually crit, and there are scads of monsters which are immune to crits in any case, it's simply useful and not overpowered.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-11, 07:14 AM
According to Wikipedia:

C=299,792,458 m/s
Multiply by 6, because you're trying to do it in a 6 second period.
We need to move it 1,798,754,748m in one round.
1 foot is 0.3048m

We need the staff to move 5,901,426,339 feet in 6 seconds. Since each commoner occupies 5 feet, we need 1,180,285,268 commoners to achieve the speed of light. However, the mass of the staff would probably be too much for their puny 10 Str. Or maybe I'm just being dumb. Advanced Physics was never my strong point. :P

Douglas
2007-02-11, 08:33 AM
D&D rules do not include relativity, so the quarterstaff weighs the same 4 pounds as always, easily within the bounds of what 10 str can move. Meanwhile, if the final commoner actually throws the staff, it instantly decelerates from c down to the normal speed of a quarterstaff thrown from a standing start.

For a more useful technique that can get the actual adventurers moving arbitrarily fast without requiring a teleport spell, line up one mule or other large-sized mount every 15 feet (measured from center to center) and get a +19 or higher Ride bonus. Proceed to mount one as a free action, dismount on the other side as a free action, mount the next one...

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-11, 09:19 AM
What if the last commoner simply "passed" the staff to the non-existent commoner who would have been next in line? :D

Thomas
2007-02-11, 11:26 AM
For a more useful technique that can get the actual adventurers moving arbitrarily fast without requiring a teleport spell, line up one mule or other large-sized mount every 15 feet (measured from center to center) and get a +19 or higher Ride bonus. Proceed to mount one as a free action, dismount on the other side as a free action, mount the next one...

Even faster than getting a 20-person party in a grapple and moving the sum of everyone's speeds divided by two each round! (Or 300 feet per round.)

The first person can be grappled by four people, and each of them can be grappled by four people (that's 21 already!), and so on ...

It's a great way to move your army. With 1,000 soldiers in heavy armor, you can still move 10,000 feet per round.

OcoM
2007-02-11, 11:41 AM
Actually it is combined with a battlefield controller.
Spiked chain, Deformity (Tall), improved trip, combat reflexes, etc.

But it always depends what type of game you are playing. If your encounters are against a few -2 to +1 of your ECL you won't need it. But if your DM likes to send 20 Kobold with 2 Fighter levels against you, it will be your best friend.

the_tick_rules
2007-02-11, 03:12 PM
It's only useful when there's a whole mob of kobolds or goblins between you and where you need to be quickly.

Matthew
2007-02-12, 11:17 AM
I often wonder if people would feel differently about this Feat if it was Improved Cleave and allowed a character to make two Cleave attempts...

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-12, 12:02 PM
Wrong. There are no craft checks that have intervals of less than a day. All that the 'free' status means is that quarterstaffs just take 1 day, it's even possible to take longer by failing the DC 12 craft check that's required to make it.
You're missing the part where if you make a craft check high enough to make multiple items in one day, you do indeed make multiple items. You just divide the value obtained by your check by the price of the item.

(Naturally a common sense ruling says if you succeed on a check to make 4 items in 8 hours, you should be able to make 1 in 2 hours. So, although it's not directly spelled out in the rules, you can craft something in less than a day.)

So, say you roll a result of 20 on your daily work. You make 12 x 20 = 240 cp worth of progress on your quarterstaff. A quarterstaff costs 0 cp, which is clearly less than 240 cp. Therefore, you make multiple quarterstaffs. How many?

240 / 0 = UNDEFINED

You actually make UNDEFINED quarterstaffs.

That's where I see the quarterstaffs glitch things ups.

Vik
2007-02-12, 12:20 PM
That only means that you can't craft quaterstaff if they are not masterwork.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-12, 12:27 PM
I'm imagining the quarterstaff creation process as resembling the "arrow glitch" from TES:Oblivion.

oriong
2007-02-12, 12:42 PM
You're missing the part where if you make a craft check high enough to make multiple items in one day, you do indeed make multiple items. You just divide the value obtained by your check by the price of the item.

(Naturally a common sense ruling says if you succeed on a check to make 4 items in 8 hours, you should be able to make 1 in 2 hours. So, although it's not directly spelled out in the rules, you can craft something in less than a day.)

Hey now, don't go bringing common sense into an infinite stream of quarterstaffs. By RAW you can make as many quarterstaves as you have materials for in a day, but you still can't make them in less time. You must still spend a full day's work at it, whether you're making a single quarterstaff or 1000. Not to mention that no matter how many you're trying you can still fail your craft roll (especially if you're using your fists to make it)

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-12, 05:30 PM
Hey now, don't go bringing common sense into an infinite stream of quarterstaffs.
Hey, I was generous. I restricted the common sense to Parenthases.

I wouldn't have even bothered with mentioning it if this were in the "Glitches" thread. :smallbiggrin:

Roland St. Jude
2007-02-12, 05:34 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: As amusing as this is, it has nothing to do with the OP's question on Great Cleave. Let's get this back on topic or let it lie. Thanks.

Grendita
2007-02-12, 06:10 PM
Great Cleave is good for one thing: Great Cleavage!

I don't know a lot about Great cleavage, but.... I know about
Epic Cleavage
(http://home.houston.rr.com/aleph/Epic%20Cleavage.jpg)

Anyway... Back to topic. My View on Great cleave is that like many feats it depends On your DM. If your DM runs encounters as more the Party Vs big monsters then it won'r be useful. If your DM runs encouters as you against many, then it will be a great asset. Its a matter of Judgement really.

On the Subject of random soldiers, I generally run my bog standerd soldiers as 1st-3rd level warriors. Seasoned Troops get fighter levels, as do most officers. In D20 Conan, they are at least 3rd level soldiers (If they can't fight in formation they are not very good soldiers are they) Unless they are conscripts.

[Edit] Forgot to give credit for the Pic, I pulled it off the Amia off topic forums. It is an NWN thing :D

Quietus
2007-02-12, 06:19 PM
NWN? Where in NWN is that? I own all three.

Grendita
2007-02-12, 09:02 PM
Sorry for the Misunderstanding I meant it was an In joke from the server I played on.

Quietus
2007-02-12, 09:11 PM
Ahhhh, alright. Heh.

Puck
2007-02-12, 09:16 PM
Great Cleave is only occasionally useful in most campaigns because the number of times the DM throws large numbers of low HP mooks at you will decline rapidly after the first or second time you use it.

Similarly, as soon as you take the feat Infinite Deflection at epic levels, nobody will ever fire a single arrow at you ever again.

That's just a fact.

Wehrkind
2007-02-12, 09:42 PM
Yea, the only time I have ever had luck using Great Cleave reliably was in Temple of Elemental Evil on my pc. The general plan was the nigh untouchable monk walks into group of ogres; flashes bottom. Ogres growl and proceed to try and take off his rice hat. Mage fireballs, monk hides in rice hat. Half Orc strolls over, bisects ogres one by one with blessed polearm. Unless she missed horribly, they pretty much all fell over before the next round, and if she did, the AoO let her finish off the rest the next round.
In pen and paper, never used it, ever. But then, how often do people get in military type campaigns? I don't know. I would definitely take it for some Dynasty Warriorsesque action in such a situation.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-12, 09:46 PM
Great Cleave is only occasionally useful in most campaigns because the number of times the DM throws large numbers of low HP mooks at you will decline rapidly after the first or second time you use it.

Similarly, as soon as you take the feat Infinite Deflection at epic levels, nobody will ever fire a single arrow at you ever again.

That's just a fact.
Because, you know, DMs know they can do their job of making sure everyone has fun by making sure no one can use the abilities they chose for their characters. :smallyuk:

NullAshton
2007-02-12, 09:51 PM
Quarter staffs are free so they take no time to craft. They are made from wood. You touch the door and instantly it is turned into a quarterstaff.

As for the speaking one, speaking is a free action and no where do the rules state how long you can speak for, so you could recite something incredible long as a free action.

I, and many other people have said... CRAFT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY! The shortest craft check you can make takes up an ENTIRE DAYS OF WORK. It does NOT take no time simply because it has no cost.

Roland St. Jude
2007-02-12, 09:54 PM
I, and many other people have said... CRAFT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY! The shortest craft check you can make takes up an ENTIRE DAYS OF WORK. It does NOT take no time simply because it has no cost.

Sheriff of Moddingham: And I have said, keep it on topic. Please do. Thank you.

daggaz
2007-02-13, 06:10 AM
Well any fighter worth his salt who wants to be like Roy has to take Great Cleave.

Roy has great cleavage.

You could even wear that spiffy belt for Improved Great Cleavage.

Yakk
2007-02-13, 04:44 PM
*nod*, it is pretty good with a power attack/spirited charge build.

Let's start with a halfling on a riding dog using a lance. L 10 melee build.

You cast true strike (UMD if you must), then next turn you charge and attack.

18 strength, +2 lance.
+18 to hit, (1d6+28)x3 damage (average 95ish).

If that takes down a target, you can attack the other two one at a time (because they are in range).

This is made more cheesy with shock trooper, naturally (and removes the need to true strike so your attack actually hits!).

Gamebird
2007-02-13, 05:03 PM
I had a party attacked by big, nasty hornets one time. On a successful hit, the target had to make a DC 10 save vs. poison that did 1 point of DEX damage. If they got a critical hit, they also did a point of hit point damage. There was 100 of them and 2d20 came out from the nest each round until all 100 were engaged. The party didn't have any appropriate area of effect spells and were around 4th or 5th level.

Might not seem like a big deal, but when you have 20 or so wasps attacking you every round, what with their +4 or +8 size bonus, then +2 or +3 Dex, they were getting a lot of hits and not everyone was saving.

However, the guy with the spiked chain and Great Cleave saved the day.

Matthew
2007-02-13, 07:01 PM
I don't really think Great Cleave is that bad a Feat. It basically just removes the cap for Cleave. Not much good against Dragons, but when a character is facing 3+ opponents it seems a reasonable Feat.

Spasticteapot
2007-02-13, 08:52 PM
Why use Great Cleave when Fireball does the same job at range?

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-13, 09:36 PM
...if you're a fighter?

Quietus
2007-02-14, 05:35 AM
.... Against fire elementals?
.... Devils?
.... Creatures with Spell Resistance?

I'm assuming here you don't have access to Assay Spell Resistance, which is like a bit, level 4, "I win" button for casters. Creatures with DR.... minor irritant. You can get through the DR with the right weapon, and with a caster on your side, you just have to carry a few weapons of different materials. You can align-on-the-go.

Saph
2007-02-14, 06:37 AM
Why use Great Cleave when Fireball does the same job at range?

Well, in my games, I usually find that by the time the wizard gets his turn, the monsters and the PCs are tangled up in melee. So fireballing them usually means torching a PC in the process. This is also why I don't like cone spells much.

- Saph

Rigeld2
2007-02-14, 07:42 AM
Well, in my games, I usually find that by the time the wizard gets his turn, the monsters and the PCs are tangled up in melee. So fireballing them usually means torching a PC in the process. This is also why I don't like cone spells much.

- Saph
See, this is where teamwork comes in, except this time the Fighter is being stubborn. If theres a bunch of mooks, weak enough that he can Great Cleave them with no problem... why not let the Wizard kill more in one shot than he possibly ever could? Stay back, delay till after the Wizard, and clean up the mess.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-14, 07:49 AM
Because maybe the fighter is tired of letting the wizard do everything all by himself, with the party just there for spoons and giggles.

Edit: And to help the wizard carry the loot he earned by winning D&D. Can't forget that.

Saph
2007-02-14, 08:06 AM
See, this is where teamwork comes in, except this time the Fighter is being stubborn. If theres a bunch of mooks, weak enough that he can Great Cleave them with no problem... why not let the Wizard kill more in one shot than he possibly ever could? Stay back, delay till after the Wizard, and clean up the mess.

It's got nothing to do with the Fighter being stubborn. If there are multiple enemies, chances are that some are going to go before the wizard does, particularly if they've got surprise. They're then going to charge into the middle of the party and start hacking things. By the time the wizard gets his turn, the party and the monsters are mixed together. Then add in the fact that if you're in a dungeon, you're fighting in a cramped space, too.

Spellcasters do occasionally get golden opportunities to blast lots and lots of enemies with one spell, but I don't see it that often.

- Saph

Orzel
2007-02-14, 09:26 AM
The times when AOE effects like Great Cleave and Fireball shine, at least one of the enemies rolls high Init. Many times it's more than one. Therefore unles, there was no surpise round, they're all casters/archers, or they were far away; chances are they are scattered and some of them are "all up on ya" if the enemy group is mostly noncasters/archers.

Weapon AOE is better vs melee enemies, spell AOE tend to be better versus casters and archers. I find core area of effect as lose/lose.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-14, 09:34 AM
Well, in my games, I usually find that by the time the wizard gets his turn, the monsters and the PCs are tangled up in melee. So fireballing them usually means torching a PC in the process.
"Now, it's considerations like this that made adventuring with my buddy Orochar so fun. You see, Orochar is half-celestial. That makes him immune to electricity. And like any good Mage of Lightning, pretty much all my evocations are modified with Energy Substitution for Electricity. So when Orochar finds himself in the thick of things, I have no hesitation dropping an electrified fireball on top of both him and the baddies!"

Yeah, energy immunities let you have it both ways. :smallbiggrin:

Ikkitosen
2007-02-14, 10:06 AM
I think it's use as a finisher for Fireballed foes is the best reason to take Great Cleave that I have heard. That or the hornet story...ouch.

Quietus
2007-02-14, 02:57 PM
I know - in the game we're playing tomorrow, a friend of mine is running a Fighter who's now taking levels if Cleric, think he plans on more or less equalling them out. He's also intending to get an oversized spike chain, I believe - probably with Monkey Grip. Large spiked chain + Enlarge Person = Huge spiked chain with 10 feet natural reach. Total of 20 foot reach, I believe? Maybe 25?

We're playing in a game that is very military minded. Our magic items found are two swords (one of which we suspect may have to be returned before long, the other stolen from a tomb for a man of Pelor), and a small pile of potions. We frequently come across huge swaths of enemies. He's going to out-kill us all when we do come into contact with such groups, because of his reach and the fact that going full power attack, he can dish out 20-something damage a shot, or more, minimum. Everything within his reach will pretty much instantly become red mist.

Of course, he's also the clanky loud fightytype, so he can't sneak quite as well as my little human wererat can.... We all have our strengths, he just shows his off a little more often.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-14, 10:19 PM
It doesn't matter how big your weapon is, if it's sized for you at minimum, it doubles your natural reach. "Natural reach" itself can be modified with Deformity: Tall, Inhuman Reach, Enlarge(and other similar spells/powers), etc. This value will then be doubled when wielding a reach weapon.

Jack Mann
2007-02-15, 12:45 AM
The problem with Great Cleave is that it's rare that enemies you can use it on can hurt you. It's the same as fireball. Even if they can (as in Gamebird's scenario) it's generally best to drop some manner of battlefield control on them that allows the fighter to take them down one by one.

The times when you're likely to be glad you had it are going to be few and far between, just because of the scarcity of enemies who are that weak but still pose a serious threat.

Only in a core-only game is great cleave worth the feat, and only because the fighter has run out of better feats by the time he hits level twenty.

Yakk
2007-02-15, 01:10 PM
How about:

Great Cleave [varient Feat]
Requirements: Cleave, Str 13, BaB +4
Whenever you successfully make a melee attack, you may Great Cleave into a different target at an additional -5 to hit. You may not Great Cleave into any target which you have already hit in this round. A Great Cleave or Cleave attack cannot trigger more Great Cleaves.

---

There -- now you get the effect of extra "AoE" style attacks, without the requirement of "I can instantly kill anyone I hit".

Your one free Cleave per turn is still useful -- Great Cleave costs you accuracy.

Great Cleave is still useful -- whenever you are near two opponents, you will probably end up with a bonus hit on the second opponent, even if you don't kill one of them.

martyboy74
2007-02-15, 01:37 PM
And what happens when someone uses the stormguard warrior and avalanch of blades combo(IIRC), but replaces AoB with Great Cleave?

Yakk
2007-02-15, 02:05 PM
And what happens when someone uses the stormguard warrior and avalanch of blades combo(IIRC), but replaces AoB with Great Cleave?

You tell me. :)

Do those feats count any hit, or only hits on the target in question?

martyboy74
2007-02-15, 02:13 PM
My bad about MG, I misread.

Anyways, if you're going to do that, use expansion, and be a half-giant. Much better.

Douglas
2007-02-15, 03:18 PM
Actually, in this case it does work that way. Monkey Grip does work on two-handed weapons, Enlarge Person gives a normally medium humanoid 10 foot reach, and the spiked chain doubles that to 20 feet. Of course, Monkey Grip contributes almost nothing to this combo, as the greater size of the spiked chain increases only the damage dice, not the reach, but it does work.

Jack Mann
2007-02-15, 03:24 PM
I think that was his point; that monkey grip doesn't increase reach.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-15, 03:32 PM
But Quietus didn't apply extra reach on account of Monkey Grip. That is unless wondering "maybe 25?" after initially stating the correct figure of 20 counts for that.

Quietus appears to have been applying all the reach factors correctly. Monkey Grip was just a red herring. So a "Monkey Grip does not work that way" reprimand was really... out of place.

Josh Inno
2007-02-15, 03:36 PM
o.O That... is a lot... of reach.

martyboy74
2007-02-15, 03:45 PM
o.O That... is a lot... of reach.

Not really.

Deformity: Tall: 10'
Inhuman Reach: 15'
Spiked Chain: 30'
Ring of Expansion (1 size, 6000 gp): 40'
Ring of Expansion (2 sizes, 27000 gp): 50'
Ring of Expansion (3 sizes, 45000 gp): 60'

Now, all you need is whirlwind attack.

The funniest part about these sort of things is that some boards that people play on aren't even big enough to fit all his reach on this. By the way, Combat Reflexes is handy with this, as is Stormguard Warrior.

\/ And to think, I just pointed that out. I suck.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-15, 03:48 PM
Half-giant: 10' (Powerful Build) OR Monkey Grip (Blech)
Uh, I might be missing something here, but neither of those have anything to do with reach. A half-giant has 5 ft. reach, as normal for a Medium creature. Powerful Build doesn't change that in any way. And, as Morbo pointed out earlier, "Monkey Grip does not work that way!"

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-15, 03:49 PM
Powerful Build and Monkey Grip don't get you extra reach.

Gamebird
2007-02-15, 05:54 PM
Not really.

Deformity: Tall: 10'
Inhuman Reach: 15'
Spiked Chain: 30'
Ring of Expansion (1 size, 6000 gp): 40'
Ring of Expansion (2 sizes, 27000 gp): 50'
Ring of Expansion (3 sizes, 45000 gp): 60'

Now, all you need is whirlwind attack.

The funniest part about these sort of things is that some boards that people play on aren't even big enough to fit all his reach on this. By the way, Combat Reflexes is handy with this, as is Stormguard Warrior.

\/ And to think, I just pointed that out. I suck.

Then drop the spiked chain and get a whip, which has a 5' longer reach at Medium than a spiked chain does. I'm not sure how that changes the rest of the calculation - I'm not really a size junkie.

martyboy74
2007-02-15, 05:57 PM
It'd add another 5 feet of reach. However, a spiked chain threatens. Whips don't.

Anyways, before the mods have to come and tell us to get back on topic...

crazedloon
2007-02-15, 06:13 PM
Not really.

Deformity: Tall: 10'
Inhuman Reach: 15'
Spiked Chain: 30'
Ring of Expansion (1 size, 6000 gp): 40'
Ring of Expansion (2 sizes, 27000 gp): 50'
Ring of Expansion (3 sizes, 45000 gp): 60'


Or you can start with a large creature and give him those rings after enlarging him :smallwink: (I think that works) and ogre as the base critter is always mean.

Now on topic in a build like the one above would it be better to go with whirlwind attack or cleave and great cleave?

the first will allow a sure attack at every critter in range but with power attack (especially on an ogre) you could very likely cut through 1, 2 or more critters in a round (after all with combat reflexes and the proper chain you have already done a bunch of damage to them in the first place)

Arceliar
2007-02-15, 06:21 PM
Great Cleave comes in handy in a couple situations... Namely, when the wizard wins initiative over the enemies and fireballs them all. This is when the fighter can rush in to take out the stragglers.

Also, Great Cleave is handy with charge-based builds. A good frenzied berserker with leap attack, battle jump, and shock trooper could whip up some rather impressive damage on an attack at the end of a charge. Somewhere over 200 actually, with a very good chance to hit.

Also, from the Craft description..
If the result ◊ the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result ◊ the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time.)

Yes, the minimum time you can make a craft check for is a day. But that explicately states you complete it in a fraction of the time, it never states that said fraction must be one day, in the same way that it never says if you make a craft check for a week it rounds up to the nearest week.

Quietus
2007-02-16, 04:57 AM
It is correct that I wasn't sure; That's why I said 20 first, with the addendum of "Maybe 25?" - I wasn't sure and figured that by bringing that up, someone would fill in the information correctly. I wasn't sure if a spiked chain for a Large creature had more natural reach than one for a Medium creature; It'd seem so in my head (as it's longer), but I can understand how it'd just get silly.

At any rate, where someone suggested whirlwind attack; Not really that helpful. WWA only gives you a single attack at everyone in five feet, if memory serves. You need the epic feat Improved Whirlwind Attack to make swings at everything you threaten.

Douglas
2007-02-16, 06:40 AM
That was in 3.0. The 3.5 version hits everything within reach with normal non-epic Whirlwind Attack. 3.5 Improved Whirlwind Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedWhirlwindAttack) tacks on a few more restrictions and a cap on number of attacks and lets you do it as a standard action.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-16, 11:12 AM
The way I understand it, the extra reach is negated by your need to "short-shaft" the weapon(holding it closer to the pointy end) in order to balance it(increased mass, more wobble due to longer shaft, etc.).

Regular longspear V=hands

===V===V====>

Monkey-gripped XXL spear

=======V===V=======>

Jack Mann
2007-02-16, 11:58 AM
Great Cleave comes in handy in a couple situations... Namely, when the wizard wins initiative over the enemies and fireballs them all. This is when the fighter can rush in to take out the stragglers.


Yes, but this depends on the wizard casting fireball. Which he shouldn't, since it's also a crap choice. There are much better options. Haste, for example, can ultimately do much more damage than fireball can dream of.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-16, 12:08 PM
The way I understand it, the extra reach is negated by your need to "short-shaft" the weapon(holding it closer to the pointy end) in order to balance it(increased mass, more wobble due to longer shaft, etc.).

Regular longspear V=hands

===V===V====>

Monkey-gripped XXL spear

=======V===V=======>

This is where the Short Haft feat comes into play.