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Altair_the_Vexed
2007-02-10, 08:41 AM
I had an idea that might add flavour to elves, and make them more magical seeming, more alien and mythic, rather than just the super-humans they often tend to be in RPGs.

As elves age, they are subject to the penalties listed in the PHB, but rather than this being through decrepitude, it is through a fading process - the elf literally becomes less present in the material world.

This could be applied as a purely flavour concept, with no mechanical bearing on the game - when the elf dies of old age, she has merely faded to the point of leaving the Prime Material forever, becoming an incoprporeal etheral entity, with no physical ability scores. Living Elves might consult such ancestors for advice, but they can have no direct influence on the world.

Or, we could give a mechanical, in-game effect to this fading process. That seems like a more fun idea, so here I go:

Elvish Aging [now edited for DEX issues]
Elves are subject to double the aging penalties listed in the PHB, but the same bonuses (e.g. at "Old", an elf loses 4 points from STR, DEX and CON, in addition to the previous 2 points lost at "Middle Age").

For each age category over "Adult", the elf gains a +2 Age bonus to Hide and Move Silently, and a 5% Concealment miss chance for any attacks against her.

If STR, or CON drops to zero as the result of aging, the elf becomes incorporeal. That ability score is treated as "-", instead of "0". Attacks by her and against her are subject to a 50% Concealment miss chance. However, if an Elf's DEX would be reduced by aging penalties to below 1, her DEX remains at 1, and she becomes incorporeal, as described. Physical abilities reduced to zero by other effects are treated as normal.

When the elf reaches her maximum age, she "Fades" - that is, she become permenantly Ethereal (as if under a permanent Ethereal Jaunt spell) and (if not already) Incorporeal. All her physical abilities are treated as "-". She has as many hit points as her maximum at the time of "death". Damaging spells cast by an elf in this state are illusions, dealing subdual damage only - conversely, healing spells can remove only subdual damage. The Faded elf is bound to the spirit world of the Ethereal, so that spells that normally allow travel between planes have only half duration, area of effect, range, etc - including spells that use the Astral Plane to travel, such as Teleport and Dimension Door. "Permanent" durations become merely one day per caster level.

Please Evaluate And Criticise Honestly?

jjpickar
2007-02-10, 11:58 AM
It blows my mind with sheer coolness.:smallbiggrin: Does the world with this effect have vast populations of "ghost elves" that guide and observe the other elves?

Macrovore
2007-02-10, 03:29 PM
if their dex is 0, they wouldn't be able to move at all, period. no casting or anything. they're just sitting targets. i would let them keep their dex score, but it still has the aging penalty.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-02-10, 05:02 PM
Concealment may be a bit much, when you think about Venerable elf wizards, but the idea is astoundingly good.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-02-10, 05:15 PM
if their dex is 0, they wouldn't be able to move at all, period. no casting or anything. they're just sitting targets. i would let them keep their dex score, but it still has the aging penalty.

Ah, I dealt with that by giving them "-" instead of "0", the same way a wraith has "-" for CON.

If any physical ability score (STR, DEX, CON) drops to zero as the result of aging, the elf becomes incorporeal (physical abilities reduced to zero by other effects are treated as normal). That ability score is treated as "-", instead of "0".
In this special case, the modifier is -5 (a score of 1 gives you a -5, and bonuses and penalty always go in pairs). So, while being penalised on AC and DEX-based skills, the Faded elf still retains a movement rate.

I thought that a world with Faded elves wouldn't have millions of these ghosts around, as elves reproduce so slowly and infrequently - but essentially, yes: there might be first-generation elves, witnesses of the birth of the species, still acting as advisors to the leaders of whatever elven council there is in that world.

Thanks for the positive feedback! :biggrin:

If concealment is too much for venerable elves, what about losing that (until they become incorporeal) and adding the Age bonus to Escape Artist checks, and to Reflex saves? The less physically present they are, the harder they become to affect with spells, and the more able to wriggle free of mere ropes they get...
On the other hand, we are doubling the penalties elves get for aging, so they end up (at venerable) with -12 to STR, DEX and CON. Is 15% concealment really too much to off set those penalties?

I can't see any, but are there any other mechanical holes in this idea that would make it horribly exploitable?

Darkshade
2007-02-10, 05:25 PM
Ah, I dealt with that by giving them "-" instead of "0", the same way a wraith has "-" for CON.

In this special case, the modifier is -5 (a score of 1 gives you a -5, and bonuses and penalty always go in pairs). So, while being penalised on AC and DEX-based skills, the Faded elf still retains a movement rate.

I thought that a world with Faded elves wouldn't have millions of these ghosts around, as elves reproduce so slowly and infrequently - but essentially, yes: there might be first-generation elves, witnesses of the birth of the species, still acting as advisors to the leaders of whatever elven council there is in that world.

Thanks for the positive feedback! :biggrin:
I can't see any, but are there any mechanical holes in this idea that would make it horribly exploitable?

no a 1 in Dex means you move very very slowly
a "-" means you do not move at all, ever, you are inanimate.
check the monster manual 3.5

Inyssius Tor
2007-02-10, 05:37 PM
Quoth the SRD:

Nonabilities

Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0. Other effects of nonabilities are detailed below.

Dexterity

Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. A creature with no Dexterity score can’t move. If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature automatically fails Reflex saves and Dexterity checks.

Darkshade
2007-02-10, 05:41 PM
additionally when the Con score reaches 0 they are simply dead, they don't continue to age, because they are no longer living, they would either instantly become faded and ghosts and gain no other aging effects or they would simply die and be gone.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-02-10, 05:46 PM
no a 1 in Dex means you move very very slowly
a "-" means you do not move at all, ever, you are inanimate.
check the monster manual 3.5

Oh, darn it, yes, you're all right. :smallfrown:

Okay - in that case, for DEX I have to rule that if an Elf's DEX would be reduced by aging penalties to below 1, her DEX remains at 1, and she becomes incorporeal, as described.

Rules technicalities I can deal with. I'm worried someone is going to say "Hey - what? Elves are immortal, and can cast spells from beyond the grave? You call that balanced?"
I'm not sure what I'd say to that.

I've edited my OP for the DEX thing.

starwoof
2007-02-10, 05:51 PM
Ooh, I like the idea. Im going to adopt it for my campaign world. :smallbiggrin:

One thing though... can you kill a dead elf?

knightsaline
2007-02-10, 06:34 PM
this reminds me of the elves from the sovereign stone trilogy, where the elves would consult with their ancestors before taking drastic actions.

if the elves were "dark" (not as in drow, but dragonlance dark elves), wouldn't they be barred from having a peaceful afterlife and have to wander the prime plane as ghosts or be tormented in either the nine hells or the infinite layers of the abyss (I think lolth may want them tortured by her underlings rather than a devil).

Icewalker
2007-02-10, 07:47 PM
I love the idea, very cool. Starwoof has brought up one interesting point. if the faded elves still have hit points, that implies you can kill them.

You mention that they cannot actually interfere with the world once they have faded, but if they can still cast spells as illusions they can still knock out enemies...

Also, you need to mention for loophole issues that when the elves str, con or dex reach 0 all three stats are reduced to "-", "-", and 1 respectively, because as it is written someone could loophole their way into keeping a high str, con, or dex after becoming incorporeal. Unless the idea is that incorporeal and faded are seperate things, and that even when they become incorporeal from minuses from aging they still age until reaching the max age, then they become "faded" and the corresponding scores are set to -, -, and 1?

sigurd
2007-02-10, 09:59 PM
I like the flavour of this. It sort of reminds me of Erekose from Moorcock's Eternal Champion series.

I have to ask though, how much affect will this have in game?

I very seldom see character age play a function in gaming. Everything is usually resolved in the life time of a half orc and the characters don't really suffer for having a shorter lifespan.

Where do you find the immortality, or near immortality, of elves has affect on your player characters.

Sigurd

Iituem
2007-02-10, 10:31 PM
You know, if you wanted to take care of an overpopulation of ghosts, you could institute a sort of elven post-life journey. The faded elves are bound to the ethereal plane with virtually no physical ability, but retain possession of their mental faculties. I can see elves having faded undergoing a sort of afterlife of spiritual meditation and eventual enlightenment (Buddha-style), after which their binding to the Ethereal Realm is broken. They remain incorporeal and effectively faded, but can manage planar travel as normal.

At this point, most elves begin a journey from the Ethereal Plane to the Astral Plane, passing through it (an adventure in and of itself) until they reach a plane they desire to spend their afterlife in. The journey is not without danger. Some elves will remain after having achieved enlightenment, staying to guide their descendents in the material plane until their business there is finished and they can begin the Great Journey.


Edit: The curious implication of this being that elves can choose their own afterlife. I might suggest, however, that it only be possible to attain 'enlightenment' with a good or neutral alignment, such that evil elves remain bound to the Ethereal, potentially tormenting the world from beyond the grave until such time as someone can destroy them.

Calver
2007-02-10, 11:28 PM
I really like this as well and appreciate you coming up with it.

I have an idea that ties back into the "Dex= - " and overpopulation issues.
How many elves, really, are going to make it all the way to "Fading?" In between wars, experiments-gone-haywire, natural disasters, and what not, I would think it possible that most Elves get killed off some time before they fade.

This being said, the Elves that are most likely to make it are kings and heavily secluded hermits. Kings, in most societies, are generally buried in the same location, generation after generation. So, the proposed "Council of Dead Elves" would be the "Sanctuary of the Kings," or something like that; a place where all the kings go right before they fade away. At this point, their Dex could become "-" and have no bearing on the campaign flavoring because they are not supposed to be going anywhere to begin with. As Sigurd mentioned, most player characters won't reach this point, so you don't have to worry about any of them being kings or finding a final resting point. As for the hermits, I don't see anything wrong with them existing as most people wouldn't have access to the "Wisdom of the Kings" and could therefore seek out "The Seer of {Whatever}" for guidance (or they could have the option to move on, as Iituem suggested).

Peregrine
2007-02-11, 02:39 AM
Aww man. Calver beat me to it. I was going to suggest that the faded elves be spirits tied to a place as well. And then you'd have quests to find where some ancient wise elf lay down to die (or was buried), and shrines would be built on those spots, and all that sort of thing... :smallcool:

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-02-11, 06:58 AM
All good ideas. Feel free to run with this however you like!

The loophole Icewalker mentioned isn't a loophole as such - my idea was that an elf becomes Faded (abilities to - / - / 1) at the point when they would normally have died of old age, but that if any ability would be reduced to zero or lower by aging penalties prior to that, that ability is changed to "-" or 1 and they become incorporeal as described, retaining their other (still age-penalised) abilities. Only at maximum age do they Fade.

Yes, it would be possible to destroy a Faded elf, in the same way it's possible to destroy a ghost.

And yeah, aging hardly ever comes into a game-play. This is more of a flavour concept for background fluff, rather than a thing to apply to your PCs.

Triaxx
2007-02-11, 07:46 AM
So using Heal on a Faded Elf makes it go poof? Interesting.

Could certain 'dark' faded elves be allowed to pass on by use of Atonement? Say it betrayed an outpost of it's fellows without it's knowledge, was exiled, and then after fading, forbidden from passing on? It would make for an interesting quest anyway. Say a village of elves is being haunted by the elf, and the quest is to find his burial site and use atonement.

fleet
2007-02-11, 09:38 AM
OK if i may point out one small problem. Elves tend towards being mages. After the 1400 some odd years it takes an elf to fade would'nt most people get to level 20? If so what effect would casting planar travel or wish have for a faded elf?

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-02-11, 01:25 PM
OK if i may point out one small problem. Elves tend towards being mages. After the 1400 some odd years it takes an elf to fade would'nt most people get to level 20? If so what effect would casting planar travel or wish have for a faded elf?

I mentioned that planar travel spells are halved in effect in the OP. Wish would still be castable, I suppose, but it cannot bring the elf back to the material plane for any longer than one day per caster level.

Maybe I should add that spells which change the Faded elf into another form (Polymorph, Shapechange, etc) would be useless, in that the new form would immediately die of old age.

Triaxx has taken my comment about ghosts a bit too literally - I meant that as a ghost can be fought with spells and magical weapons, so can a Faded elf. Healing should still work properly on them, not take hit points off.
The idea isn't that the elf has become a ghost, but that they have become an intangible, non-material being. This isn't considered "death" by the elves, it's considered to be a joyous transition into a more truly spiritual form, untroubled by the restrictions of mortal flesh.

Perhaps these Faded elves go on another journey, to pass away from even the Ethereal plane - that wasn't my suggestion, but it's a cool idea. I think it might be nice if Faded elves, through meditation and study become literally one with the multiverse over a period of further millennia, maybe losing one mental ability point per century as they become even less concerned with interacting with mundane, material matters. Eventually, they are little more than a memory, a vague recollection of their former selves, with hardly the capacity to cast spells - their real intellect having passed beyond any tangible location in the multiverse.

Wizzardman
2007-02-11, 03:11 PM
I can see one problem with this--as each elven generation now has the previous elven generation yelling in its ear to "do things the traditional way," elven society will become horribly stagnant. No one will change anything, because their parents and their parents parents will demand everything be done by the old ways and for the old ways.

Otherwise (and even with this effect) this is an awesome setup. Nice job.

Peregrine
2007-02-11, 07:57 PM
I can see one problem with this--as each elven generation now has the previous elven generation yelling in its ear to "do things the traditional way," elven society will become horribly stagnant. No one will change anything, because their parents and their parents parents will demand everything be done by the old ways and for the old ways.

And this is a problem? :smalltongue: Certainly Tolkien's elves, at least, were disappearing from the world because the slow march of time was leaving them behind; Lothlórien was a kind of timeless oasis established by Galadriel's power, but it too failed due to events at the end of The Lord of the Rings. So stagnant old-fashioned elves are 100% OK by me. :smallbiggrin:

One question I have, though. Is it possible to make undead elves from these ancients? I suppose a dead elf is still a dead elf if they die before their time (although I'm not quite sure how that sits with me from a flavour perspective), and so can become an undead elf, but what about a faded elf?

...not that I'm planning to do anything to disturb their rest or bind their spirits to my service for all eternity or anything like that... I'm just asking... :smallwink:

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-02-12, 03:12 AM
Good point(s), Peregrine: can elves become undead, what happens to slain elves, and specifically can Faded elves become undead?

I'd say No, Faded elves can't become undead. They're purely spiritual and able to resist binding, rebuking, turning and the like.

I think elves that are killed before they Fade just die and go to whatever elven paradise / afterlife you have in your campaign, possibly to be reborn in a later generation. Tolkien seemed to favour that idea.

Until an elf Fades, he can be made undead - by a wraith or wight, for example. The elf has not yet learned the detachment of body and spirit, nor true control over the spirit to an extent where the Negative Energy effects of unlife can be fended off.
An elf who has become incorporeal through aging, but has not yet Faded to the Ethereal Plane can also become undead - but I think that he ought to get a Will save, DC 10+HD of the creature that is attempting to make him undead, or DC 10+spell level+ability modifier of caster who is attempting to make him undead. That reflect the higher spiritual control the incorporeal elf has gained, and yet their lack of absolute understanding.

This is turning into quite a complex house rule!