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Matthew
2007-02-10, 08:09 PM
Another Alternative Feat tree that sprung to mind the other day. Eight Attacks in six seconds at Level 16 is excessive you say? Bah, so is Greater Many Shot... all criticism welcome.


RAPID SHOOTING [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Base Attack Bonus +1.
Benefit: You can get an additional attack with a ranged weapon during a Full Attack Action. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra ones and the normal ones) takes a 2 penalty.
Special: A Fighter may select Rapid Shooting as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats.



IMPROVED RAPID SHOOTING [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Base Attack Bonus +6, Rapid Shooting.
Benefit: You get a second additional attack with a ranged weapon when using Rapid Shooting during a Full Attack Action, albeit at a 5 penalty.
Special: A Fighter may select Improved Rapid Shooting as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats.



GREATER RAPID SHOOTING [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Base Attack Bonus +11, Rapid Shooting, Improved Rapid Shooting.
Benefit: You get a third additional attack with a ranged weapon when using Rapid Shooting during a Full Attack Action, albeit at a 10 penalty.
Special: A Fighter may select Greater Rapid Shooting as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats.



PERFECTED RAPID SHOOTING [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Base Attack Bonus +16, Rapid Shooting, Improved Rapid Shooting, Greater Rapid Shooting.
Benefit: You get a fourth additional attack with a ranged weapon when using Rapid Shooting during a Full Attack Action, albeit at a 15 penalty.
Special: A Fighter may select Greater Rapid Shooting as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats.



MOBILE RAPID SHOOTING [GENERAL]
You are skilled at moving and shooting rapidly at the same time.
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13, Base Attack Bonus +1, Rapid Shooting.
Benefit: When using the Standard Attack Action with a ranged weapon you may make a single additional attack in addition to your Primary Attack. Both Attack Rolls suffer the normal 2 penalty associated with Rapid Shooting.
Normal: When using the Standard Attack Action with a ranged weapon you may only make one attack.
Special: A Fighter may select Mobile Rapid Shooting as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats.

Demented
2007-02-10, 09:02 PM
So, does this stack with Rapid Shot? That'd make 9 shots in total.

A repeating crossbow, poor thing, maxes out at 5 shots every other round. A longbow will leave it in the dust, and with rapid reload, so will a light/hand crossbow.

Oh, and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19415) thread is potentially intriguing.... Quickdraw, GTWF, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, Perfected Rapid Shooting.... 12 feats... 7 light or hand crossbows... for 12 shots in the opening round.

Pretty.

Matthew
2007-02-10, 09:06 PM
Heh, no it wouldn't stack with Rapid Shot, it's intended to replace it!

Yeah, used in combination with Two Weapon Fighting you would be able to add on four additional attacks, either via Cross Bows or Daggers or what have you. However, since the number of Free Actions a character can take in a round is at the Dungeon Master's discretion, he could reasonably prevent it, were he so inclined.

Icewalker
2007-02-11, 03:15 AM
Wait, so Mobile Rapid Shooting basically takes Rapid Shooting and makes it a standard action instead of a Full attack action? and then the other forms (improved, greater, and perfected) can still only be used as a full attack action?

Well, I like it, definitely more realistic than combining the old ones to get ridiculous amounts of arrows. So with all four you get
>>---> (-2)
>>---> (-2)
>>---> (-5)
>>---> (-10)
>>---> (-15)
Does this stack with Many shot? That'd allow a 16th level fighter to get off 20 shots, wouldn't it? -10(x8), -13(x4), -18(x4), and -23(x4). Quite the low hit chances there, but with dex bonus or a magical bow (likely for a fighter using bow feats at 16th level) you could probably have at least a total of +20 to hit before these minuses. It'd still be a problem for all the stuff with 20+ AC when you only get +10 to your roll to bypass it, but with 20 shots? not a problem.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-11, 03:35 AM
Hmm.. It's like Two Weapon Fighting for ranged attacks. I thought about using something like that once, but I though that Manyshot already covered that, in a diferent way. Though I didn't fully understand how that works :p

Assasinater
2007-02-11, 05:13 AM
Heh, I always dreamed of raiding the bad guys' place with dual wielded repeating crossbows :P.

Anyway, I have no problem with getting eight attacks in six seconds (well, kind of), but you really have to make the dexterity requirements higher (both for realism's sake and balance-wise). It can go up by two per feat, resulting in a dex 19 requirement for perfected rapid shooting.

Matthew
2007-02-11, 08:12 AM
No, it wouldn't stack with the Many Shot Feats, since using them is a separate Standard Action. Basically, a Level 20 Fighter using a Bow with this Feat Tree would have:

Attack Action: 18 / 18
Full Attack Action: 18 / 18 / 13 / 13 / 8 / 8 / 3 / 3

A Two Weapon Fighting Rapid Shooting Fighter 20 would get (if he had two Six Shooters, say):

Full Attack Action: 16 / 16 / 16 / 11 / 11 / 11 / 6 / 6 / 6 / 1 / 1 / 1

I am not planning on making these dependent on very high Attribute Scores, as this is intended to be mainly a matter of training. As an aside, I have removed the very high Dexterity requirements from my own version of Two Weapon Fighting.
I understand why it is being suggested, though, but it is also worth noting that anyone who primarily relies on Ranged Attacks is likely going to have a huge Dexterity anyway...

Assasinater
2007-02-11, 04:35 PM
If it's already likely that they should have high dexterity, why not put the prerequisite? Training is a matter of improving your limits, but without the potential, it's just not possible.

I know I'm thinking heavily realistic, but as much as I can see it, what I suggest doesn't have any setbacks, when you think in terms of gameplay as well.

Matthew
2007-02-12, 03:31 PM
I just don't think Dexterity has much to do with the number of times you can shoot a Bow or swing a Sword. It already plays mechanically into shooting a Bow by increasing accuracy, there's no need for it to regulate how many shots a character can take or blows via Two Weapon Fighting (indeed, I have proposed reducing Dexterity for the Two Weapon Fighting Tree to a flat 13 and it is in that context that I am making this too a flat 13). Characters get more attacks by Base Attack Bonus, in general.
Of course, there is a counter argument to be made and I would have no problem with other DMs using these Feats with Dexterity requirements that scale up by two each time.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-12, 04:59 PM
Maybe getting the first feat without Dex requeriment, the second with Dex 13, third with Dex 15, and the fourth with Dex 17? My counter argument is that Some high level abilities shouldn't be just available to any guy. If there were the case, we wouldn't need minimum ability scores for any feat. Only BAB and previous feats would be enough. I may try the none/13/15/17 style for TWF in my campaigns.

Matthew
2007-02-12, 05:16 PM
You might want to make it 11, 13, 15 and 17. Otherwise you could have Characters with Dexterity 3 Two Weapon Fighting and nobody wants that to be possible. Right?

Personally, I view Level and Base attack Bonus as being the thing that makes a Character really special, rather than his Dexterity 32. As far as I can tell, there are a number of magical items and such that people use to enhance their Dexterity beyond the normal in conventional D&D 3.x. I'm happier with a flat 13, above average, capable of being trained, but I do see the other side of it.

Assasinater
2007-02-12, 05:54 PM
The fact that level and base attack bonus is the thing that makes a character really special is true indeed, though I understood these feats to be more of a bonus, which explains my suggestions of higher prerequisites. But your point is taken, too, it's kind of a matter of choice, which depends on other (normal or homebrew) rules you're using as well.

Matthew
2007-02-13, 07:21 PM
True indeed. If we were intending on keeping these in line with a relatively RAW Two Weapon Fighting progression, either a [13, 15, 17, 19 (as you suggested)] or a [15, 17, 19, 21] progression would be suitable, I think.