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Jormengand
2014-05-02, 01:27 PM
All right people, I need some help.

A bit of backstory: I've been working for some weeks now on the idea of martial classes whose abilities are based on a mechanic called Momentum - every time they deal damage, they get Momentum, and the more momentum they have, the more powerful their attacks get. Finally, they can spend all their momentum on a super-cool "Finishing move" which does the same thing, only more of it. Here, I'll show you an example of one of these Momentum abilities:

Inferno Blade, Lesser
Level: Disciple Apparent 1
Use in Peace: Yes.
Effect: Your attacks do half fire damage and the other half the normal damage type. All fire damage from this effect is lethal, even if you use an unarmed strike or a whip (which also still deals fire damage to armoured targets) or if you deliberately do nonlethal damage with your attack. You also do fire damage equal to one tenth of your momentum.
Finish: The finishing move does normal damage, plus an amount of fire damage equal to the momentum spent.

Now, that's all well and good for dealing fire damage, healing yourself or even flying, but what about all the abilities that make or break T3 classes?

Looking at the Bard spell list, for example, even at level 1 I can see Charm Person, Grease, Silent Image... how do I make those scale with Momentum? It's not going to work.

So... I guess what I'm wondering is, how do I get T3 abilities which scale with Momentum and keep some vague semblance of being actually martial, rather than just casting spells with swords? Do I just capitalise on doing things other T3s can't do? Help!

ngilop
2014-05-02, 05:00 PM
well I can see a grease-esque ability.

he warrior in a 360' circle around him does a cool attack and POW grease effect. like an AoE trip affect.


slient image yah.. im not seeing anything with that.


insteasd odf looking at each spell the bard has individually at each spell level instead try to fit 3 or so abilities to plug the holes that the poor 'tier' 4s have.

so you need a few abilities for mobility
a few for attacking will saves, like an attack that causes fear, or 'charms'
a few for attack fort save, such as stunning, dazing, etc
a few abilities that do ability damage
a few abilities for battle field control
a handful of out of cambat abilities
a way to affect allies, like boosts of some sort
a way to effect enemies, some type of debuffs..like an anti inspire courage
a way to monopolize on action and action types.

and other such like that.

Jormengand
2014-05-02, 05:47 PM
well I can see a grease-esque ability.

he warrior in a 360' circle around him does a cool attack and POW grease effect. like an AoE trip affect.

Yeah, but you're missing the point. I need to make this work with the subsystem I have in mind.

Your list of things, too, comes without an idea of how to implement them in my class.

Quellian-dyrae
2014-05-02, 06:03 PM
For debuffs/save-or-X type stuff, Momentum could scale Save DCs, durations, areas/number of targets, and/or the magnitude of the penalty.

Buffs could scale durations and magnitude of bonus.

Battlefield control would probably scale duration and area, and perhaps magnitude of effect.

Since this is a fairly combat-oriented system (Momentum being based on damage), you probably don't have to worry about noncombat utility style effects. But if you want them, maybe make them function as a sort of delayed finisher. Like if you get X Momentum, you can spend it at the end of a battle, and then any time before your next rest produce Y effect. Multiple increments of X giving multiple uses of Y.

What I'd probably say, is let things like numerical bonuses/penalties scale with Momentum, and major effects (status conditions, bestowed abilities, etc) be "finisher" options requiring a certain minimum amount of Momentum. So like you might have an ability that gives you +5' to speed per 20 Momentum (or something, no idea what the balance point is so numbers are being pulled out of thin air), but as a finisher costing at least 50 Momentum, you can fly at your speed for one round per 5 Momentum spent.

NichG
2014-05-02, 06:09 PM
Because you've tied the mechanic to damage specifically, a lot of the things you're talking about - like Charm Person - are going to be very hard to make any sort of sense out of. It basically means that they have to get into a fight outside a merchant's shop in order to get a good deal from the merchant. You can make mechanics like that but they'll probably end up seeming silly.

To go from T4 to T3 in design, I think a good approach is to take a step back and consider the entirety of the picture that the character's abilities are trying to address. If the character's main T4 schtick is 'I drop enemies in combat', then ask 'what other things are indirectly related to the need to drop enemies in combat?'. For example, you could say 'in order to drop an enemy, I must first be able to get to them' - that tells you why you need movement abilities like flight.

You could also say 'I need to drop enemies in combat in order to end the encounter', which might suggest using Momentum finishing moves for abilities that end the encounter without dropping enemies - for example, something that forces the entire enemy side to flee when their losses are sufficiently high and they fail a morale check.

Essentially, add abilities that let the character be good at not only addressing a particular aspect of a particular scenario, but the overall structure of the scenario as a whole. If you want to blend in-combat and out-of-combat things, you need to figure out the particular generalization that applies equally to the set of in-combat and out-of-combat things you want the guy to be good at, and rebuild the Momentum system to respect that generalization rather than using something like 'damage'. I suspect that'll end up creating a more natural result than snagging particular abilities from other T3s.

Durazno
2014-05-02, 08:32 PM
Could some of the classes gain momentum from skill checks as well as damage? If you give some of them other activities that can grant momentum (possibly only for noncombat purposes), then they could also gain usable utility finishers. For instance, the charm ability could be something that becomes accessible by building momentum via making diplomacy/intimidate/bluff checks. The character would be able to call up an array of tactical options even in noncombat encounters!

Jormengand
2014-05-03, 01:35 PM
Skills now have their own Momentum abilities. :smallbiggrin:

Does it seem unfair to base the save DCs for skill abilities on the skill's ability score (the diplomacy one on CHA, the SoH one on DEX)? It seems to make the class stupidly MAD, but I can't think of anything else that would work (except for INT for all of them... on a STR/DEX and CON based class. Which would be stupidly MAD).

What do?

Zale
2014-05-03, 04:33 PM
I could certainly see a warrior's Charm Person.

Only, unlike how the normal Charm makes people think of you as their best buddy ever, the warrior version would hinge on convincing someone you are a knife wielding psychopath who will gut them like a fish if they don't do exactly what you say.

So, basically just tell the truth.

Realms of Chaos
2014-05-04, 09:26 AM
This... seems a little bit backwards.

Tier 3 isn't about being able to perform a whole laundry list of feats inside of a battle. Rather, it's about always having something in every sort of encounter.
Having divinations, illusions, and enchantments that scale and allow your dude to function isn't the problem.
The problem is that, even with these abilities, your class can't do anything in an investigation or peaceful negotiation unless he starts fighting someone out of the blue.

Your class is likely barred from tier 3 simply because it requires combat in order to do anything, even if you let it do just about anything within combat.

Jormengand
2014-05-04, 09:41 AM
The problem is that, even with these abilities, your class can't do anything in an investigation or peaceful negotiation unless he starts fighting someone out of the blue.

Your class is likely barred from tier 3 simply because it requires combat in order to do anything, even if you let it do just about anything within combat.

This is exactly why I added the Skill abilities.

Allnightmask
2014-05-05, 09:31 AM
Have you read the escalating chain discipline? You may not dig the specifics but what you wrote brought it to mind.

Kennisiou
2014-05-06, 02:12 PM
This is 3.5, yeah?

If so, my thoughts on some basic momentum abilities:

Momentum tripper: every time you successfully trip a foe, gain momentum. You have +2 to trip for each momentum you have. Every time this bonus would negate between your current size and another size, you trip foes as though you were that size, but without the size bonus to trip (meaning you may trip larger foes than normal as you gain momentum). At full momentum, you may spend all of your momentum to either be treated as a colossal size creature for your next trip attempt and gain an additional +10 to trip, or you may make a trip attempt with your current momentum modifiers against all creatures you currently threaten.

Momentum attacker: You gain one momentum every time you attack. You have +1d4 damage per momentum stack. At the start of every turn, lose two momentum. When you reach full momentum, you may expend all of your momentum to gain an additional attack every time you attack this turn, at the same bonus and with the same weapon you previously attacked with. You retain the bonus damage die on every attack this turn.

Momentum charger: You gain momentum every time you charge. You have +2 to damage on each charge per momentum stack. Anything that multiplies power attack damage multiplies the momentum damage modifier as well. At full momentum you may either spend all momentum to gain pounce and retain all momentum bonuses for this round, as well as gain +20 movespeed and the ability to charge over difficult terrain, or you may retain your momentum bonuses and deal double power attack damage this round.

Momentum grappler: Every time you make a successful grapple attempt, gain momentum. You have +2 to grapple checks per momentum stack. At full stacks, you may expend all of your momentum as an immediate action to either automatically pin a grappled foe, or to automatically throw a pinned one.



A tad worried momentum charger is a bit too strong, so it may be pertinent to reduce the bonus to +1. Momentum attacker may be worth buffing to +1d6, as the only practical way to stack it is 2-weapon fighting (or unarmed strike + natural attacking), which is generally not a very powerful combat style (except for natural attacking -- that's really strong).

Jormengand
2014-05-06, 03:59 PM
trip a foe,...make a successful grapple attempt

These don't deal damage and aren't skill checks, so you can't gain momentum from them.

The idea of momentum is that when you deal damage (or make a skill check), you gain that much momentum with your particular combo ability. Then you can use your momentum to execute finishing moves. Tripping and grappling don't do damage.

Also, I don't want too many of my abilities to be "I use my ability which scales off damage.... to deal more damage!"

So yeah, this is the problem.

Realms of Chaos
2014-05-06, 06:01 PM
Okay, new question!

From what I've seen so far it seems that:

You want to give this class a wide array of abilities for a large selection of powers (you want analogs to grease/charm person/silent image, after all)
You want these abilities to be usable outside of combat, enabling their use through skills and thus never requiring them to make an attack.
You want these abilities to be moderately effective outside of combat (so you won't be granting combat-charm/combat-illusion/combat-grease)


With that established, how is this a martial class? Seriously, if you're giving out the entire array of magical abilities in useful ways and don't require attacking for them to activate, even Full BAB and tons of fighter feats won't stop the fact that this is no longer a martial class. Instead, you have a mundane class who requires full BAB to attempt to be martial, requires lots of skill points in order to use abilities out of combat, and that can do everything that doesn't strictly require magic to do. Not a fighter. Not a skillmonkey. Just the-best-that-mundane-can-do (TM).

Existing tier 3 martial classes like the duskblade or warblade don't have much of a role beyond what is technically useful in combat. In all honesty, the only abilities that you are having problems converting are probably the ones that this class doesn't need in the first place. Like, at all.

Of course, I haven't seen your class so there's a good possibility that I'm missing something. If so, please let me know.

ben-zayb
2014-05-06, 11:22 PM
I'm wondering how you're making Momentum off skill checks with failure chances or are binary. Like Disable Device against traps, Knowledge on whether you know this thing or not, Spot to notice waylays, Diplomacy against hostiles, Disguise to look like a specific person, etc.

Of course, for Truespeak, this could be gold.

Jormengand
2014-05-07, 01:21 PM
You want to give this class a wide array of abilities for a large selection of powers (you want analogs to grease/charm person/silent image, after all)

I want it to be able to do enough stuff to be T3


You want these abilities to be usable outside of combat, enabling their use through skills and thus never requiring them to make an attack.

Some of these abilities, yes. Others do require attacks - for example, the combos that heal hit point damage aren't actually skill combos (Sorry, Heal skill), so you have to be in combat for it to work.


You want these abilities to be moderately effective outside of combat (so you won't be granting combat-charm/combat-illusion/combat-grease)

Some of these abilities, yes.


With that established, how is this a martial class?

Because 80-90% of its stuff only works in combat.


Seriously, if you're giving out the entire array of magical abilities in useful ways and don't require attacking for them to activate, even Full BAB and tons of fighter feats won't stop the fact that this is no longer a martial class. Instead, you have a mundane class who requires full BAB to attempt to be martial, requires lots of skill points in order to use abilities out of combat, and that can do everything that doesn't strictly require magic to do. Not a fighter. Not a skillmonkey. Just the-best-that-mundane-can-do (TM).

God forbid that someone be competent at fighting and using skills (for example, it would be a tragedy if a class had, say Sneak Attack and 8+int skill points/level at the same time.)


Existing tier 3 martial classes like the duskblade or warblade don't have much of a role beyond what is technically useful in combat. In all honesty, the only abilities that you are having problems converting are probably the ones that this class doesn't need in the first place. Like, at all.

The trouble is, it's been established that the ability to kill anyone, anywhere, with no save makes you a T4 class. Clearly, being good at killing things isn't enough to make you T3.


Of course, I haven't seen your class so there's a good possibility that I'm missing something. If so, please let me know.

You're missing that I don't really want my class to be a "Hit things. They die" class. It's meant to be interesting and fun to play, rather than just being able to alternate whether it stacks up bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, fire, cold, sonic, acid, lightning, negative energy, vile or city damage each round. It's meant to do stuff other than just hit stuff.



I'm wondering how you're making Momentum off skill checks with failure chances or are binary. Like Disable Device against traps, Knowledge on whether you know this thing or not, Spot to notice waylays, Diplomacy against hostiles, Disguise to look like a specific person, etc.

Well, that's a good question. The answer looks something like this:

Some combos, known as skill combos, instead rely on you making multiple skill checks of the relevant type to use them. You build up momentum by making the relevant check, as given in the combo's description, and instead of executing a finishing move, you use the finish effect as a standard action. Each time you make such a skill check, you gain momentum equal to the result of the check, even if you fail. Unlike other combos, you lose all momentum in skill combos if you divert your attention away from the task at hand for more than a minute.


Silver Tongue
Level: Disciple Apparent 3
Effect: You make a diplomacy check each round, against one or more creatures. While you succeed (DC 10 + half the targets' highest hit dice + the targets' highest wisdom modifier + twice the number of creatures being affected after the first), these creatures are considered Fascinated until such a time as hostile action is taken against them, at which point they are immune to the effect for one minute, or until you fail (or do not make) a check, at which point they act as normal until you make the check again.

If you are not in combat or immediately threatened, you can also make some sort of deal or suggestion each round. So long as it is vaguely reasonable, the target will comply with it. The more you beat the DC by, the more complex, dangerous or disadvantageous the suggestions that the targets might accept.

You gain a +1 bonus on the skill check per 10 points of momentum.



Of course, for Truespeak, this could be gold.

Truespeak, UMD/UPD, Spell/Psicraft, Control Shape, and anything else which makes no sense is not invited to the party. Go and sit in the corner, Truespeak. I don't love you any more. :smalltongue:


EDIT: It's probably easier if I copy what I have so far into here so you can see what I'm on about more easily. For reference, I'm thinking of making Champion Transcendent more skillmonkeyish than the others, so I can give it all of the skill combos instead of burdening the others with them. :smalltongue:

This is my vague attempt to create a class who actually feels like a T3 martial character (ToB has always felt a bit like spellcasters-with-swords to me) while not necessarily being non-magical. Well, let's see what happens if we...

The Disciple Apparent

Some people train in magic; others in swordplay. Some are lucky - these are the Sorcerers, innately magical, they need no training to wield their powers. Others, such as Clerics and Druids, draw their magic from a higher power, and need no training. Often, such people turn to the art of war, such as the Eldritch Knights and Abjurant Champions. Then, are those who combine their magic with their fighting, such as the Duskblades, Magi and Inquisitors.

Then, there are the Disciples Apparent, who wield their blades with such power and such conviction that they become magical with their strikes. No training, no inner strength, no divine might can fuel their incredible power. Only the skill and conviction of their strikes and the monumental power behind them can cause these effects.


The Disciple Apparent
LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial
Finishing Moves Known
Maximum Momentum
Maximum Combo/Finish level
1st+1+1+1+1Combos, Finishing Moves
1
21
1
2nd+2+1+1+1
1
24
1
3rd+3+2+2+2
1
29
2
4th+4+2+2+2
1
36
2
5th+5+3+3+3Clear Skies Initiate
2
45
2
6th+6/+1+3+3+3Recurring Combo 2
2
56
2
7th+7/+2+3+3+3
2
69
3
8th+8/+3+4+4+4
2
84
3
9th+9/+4+4+4+4
3
101
3
10th+10/+5+5+5+5Turning the Tides
3
120
3
11th----Legacy Continued, Recurring Combo 3
3
141
4
12th----
3
164
4
13th----
4
189
4
14th----
4
216
4
15th----
4
245
5
16th----Recurring Combo 4
4
276
5
17th----
5
309
5
18th----
5
344
5
19th----
5
381
6
20th----
5
420
6

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d8

Class Skills:
The disciple apparentís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ◊ 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armour Proficiency
A disciple apparent is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type inhibits the disciple apparent's movement, which prevents him from using his combos and finishing moves.

Combos and Finishing Moves (Su)

The disciple apparent is skilled in fighting using powerful combo attacks, causing him to gain momentum with that combo up to the maximum given on Table: The Disciple Apparent. He may make a single combo attack or finishing move with each weapon he has per round, and each must be made with a different hand. If the disciple apparent wields a two-handed weapon, this probably means that he can only make a single such attack each round.

Attacks of Opportunity, as well as other ways to make attacks when it's not your turn, cannot be combo attacks.

Using a combo attack requires that the disciple apparent be using a melee weapon, and makes the disciple apparent's momentum with that combo attack increase by the amount of damage dealt, up to the maximum. Bonus damage from sneak attacks, precise strike, and similar class features is not added, but bonus damage from power attack, enhancement bonuses, critical hits and a bard's Inspire Competence counts - in general, damage dealt increases your momentum if it can be achieved without multi-classing. This causes the combo to be slightly more powerful, but also allows for a finishing move.

Finishing moves cause the disciple apparent to lose all momentum with a single combo attack of the disciple apparent's choosing, but have a special effect which is given in the description of the combos - the finishing moves themselves are just a way to release the momentum, and their own effects are limited. A basic attack may be used as a finishing move, but you do not have to use it as one - it may simply be an attack.

Some combos, known as skill combos, instead rely on you making multiple skill checks of the relevant type to use them. You build up momentum by making the relevant check, as given in the combo's description, and instead of executing a finishing move, you use the finish effect as a standard action. Each time you make such a skill check, you gain momentum equal to the result of the check, even if you fail. Unlike other combos, you lose all momentum in skill combos if you divert your attention away from the task at hand for more than a minute.

The disciple apparent knows a number of combos equal to his class level plus one, and a number of finishing moves given on Table: The Disciple Apparent. These must be of no more than the maximum level given on Table: The Disciple Apparent - as such, sixth-level finishing moves do not exist. The disciple apparent draws these combos and finishing moves from the disciple apparent combo list and the disciple apparent finishing move list.

When the disciple apparent is no longer in combat, he gains maximum momentum for all of his combos, but he loses all momentum when he enters combat. However, some combos cannot be used out of combat, and thus the disciple apparent does not have, and cannot gain, any momentum for that combo when he is out of combat.

Combo-users have a cursory knowledge of all combos and finishing moves pertaining to their role, and may therefore practice for an hour after waking up to gain an understanding of how the combo is achieved or the finishing move is performed. This allows him to swap a single combo or finishing move for another of an appropriate level, meaning that he can only have combos and finishing moves that he could have gained by leveling up. For example, a fifth level disciple apparent may not have more than three second-level combos or more than one second-level finishing move, but might decide he wants two different first-level finishing moves.

Clear Skies Initiate

At fifth level, the disciple apparent watches his foes take to the skies, and learns to destroy them even so. He no longer requires a melee weapon for his combos, meaning that he can use both throwing and projectile weapons. He still can't use rays or other spell effects - he must use either a weapon or an unarmed strike.

Recurring Combo

At sixth level, and every fifth level thereafter, the disciple apparent may make an additional combo attack with each weapon and with each hand.

Turning the Tides

From tenth level, disciples apparent can draw momentum from the attacks of their foes. Whenever the disciple apparent takes damage, he adds half that much momentum to the momentum pool of any combo he knows, even if that damage would not normally cause a gain in momentum.

Legacy Continued

As Frank and K so wisely said, Some Base Classes are Short. The disciple apparent cannot gain levels after tenth, but its class features, including combos, finishing moves and momentum limit, continue beyond this point, the reason for this being that certain prestige classes advance all of the disciple apparent's class features, but use their own class features and combo and finishing move lists in addition to those of the disciple apparent, and have their own save bonuses. Any prestige class which advances your combos will also advance your remaining class features.




The Paragon Militant
LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial
Combos/Finishing Moves
1st+1+2+2+0Moment of Opportunity
+1 level of existing combo class
2nd+2+3+3+0Momentous assault I
+1 level of existing combo class
3rd+3+3+3+1Clear Skies Master
+1 level of existing combo class
4th+4+4+4+1Momentous assault II
+1 level of existing combo class
5th+5+4+4+1Inertial Strike
+1 level of existing combo class
6th+6+5+5+2Momentous assault III
+1 level of existing combo class
7th+7+5+5+2Moment of Freedom
+1 level of existing combo class
8th+8+6+6+2Momentous assault IV
+1 level of existing combo class
9th+9+6+6+3Irresistible Force
+1 level of existing combo class
10th+10+7+7+3Momentous assault V
+1 level of existing combo class

Prerequisite: Must be able to execute 3rd-level finishing moves
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d8

Class Skills:
The paragon militantís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier

Moment of Opportunity

Paragons militant can apply combos or finishing moves as attacks of opportunity, even though this cannot normally be done.

Momentous Assault I (Su)

From second level, so long as the paragon militant is in combat, he may sacrifice any number of points of momentum to increase the damage of a single attack by the same number. This is counted as precision damage, and also does not cause momentum gain for obvious reasons. This does not take an action and the paragon militant makes his decision after he makes the attack roll.

If the paragon militant already has momentous assault from another source, he gains the next level of it.

Clear Skies Master (Ex)

Paragons Militant ignore concealment, even total concealment, with ranged attacks.

Momentous Assault II (Su)

From fourth level, the paragon militant can cause ability damage with his attacks. To do so, he must spend 20 points of momentum in the same way as he would to cause normal damage. He may choose an ability score to deal damage to, or split the damage up between multiple ability scores.

Inertial Strike (Ex)

From fifth level, if damage dealt by a paragon militant's attacks, combos and finishing moves would be decreased due to resistances, damage reduction, hardness or so forth, it is reduced by half that amount.

Example: Jonah is a paragon militant, and deals 39 bludgeoning damage to a zombie with DR 5/slashing. Normally his damage would be decreased by 5, to 34. It is instead reduced by 2, to 37.

If Jonah deals 45 fire damage to a red dragon (who is immune to fire), or to a creature with fire resistance 50, his damage would normally be reduced by 45 to 0. It is instead reduced by 22 to 23.

Jonah later sets a trap which deals fire damage. If the dragon walks into the trap, it takes no damage.

Momentous Assault III (Su)

From sixth level, a paragon militant may cause ability drain instead of normal ability damage with his momentous assaults, but it costs 30 points of momentum instead of 20.

Moment of Freedom (Su)

From seventh level, the paragon militant may spend 50 momentum to take a move action or another action entailing movement as though under the effect of a Freedom of Movement spell, and also to move through physical or magical barriers without harm. If he ends this movement in a wall or other location in which he cannot stand, he is shunted to the nearest open space and takes 1d6 damage for every 10 feet moved in this way.

Momentous Assault IV (Su)

From eighth level, the paragon militant's momentous assaults can be used to cause negative levels. This costs 50 momentum per negative level the paragon militant wishes to inflict.

Irresistible Force (Ex)

From ninth level, the paragon militant's inertial strike doubles in power, so his attacks' damage can no longer be reduced at all.

Momentous Assault V (Su)

At tenth level, the paragon militant requires only half the normal amount of momentum to use his abilities from Momentous Assault II, III and IV, and does double damage with Momentous Assault I.

-Guardian Immortal class cut for length-

The Knight Exemplar

Only those who are truly worthy can rise to the lofty ranks of the Knights Exemplar. These are powerful momentum-users who can channel their momentum directly into their strikes or use it to defend themselves and their allies.


The Knight Exemplar
LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial
Combos/Finishing Moves
1st+1+2+0+2Armoured Assault
+1 level of existing Combo class
2nd+2+3+0+3Momentous Defence
+1 level of existing Combo class
3rd+3+3+1+3Momentous Assault
+1 level of existing Combo class
4th+4+4+1+4Moment of Calm
+1 level of existing Combo class
5th+5+4+1+4Zero Moment
+1 level of existing Combo class

Prerequisite: Must be proficient in medium armour and shields and be capable of using them during combos.
Prerequisite: Must be able to execute finishing moves during attacks of opportunity.
Prerequisite: Must be capable of performing fifth-level combos.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d10

Class Skills:
The knight exemplarís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) (Int) Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armour Proficiency
The Knight Exemplar is proficient in all armour and shields, including tower shields, and the bastard sword.

Armoured Assault
The knight exemplar, unlike other momentum-using classes, can still perform combos and execute finishing moves while using any kind of armour or shield, even a tower shield.

Momentous Defence
From second level, the knight exemplar may use his momentum to defend himself when he is struck. If he would take damage, he may choose to lose one point of momentum per point of damage to negate the damage, or part of the damage. He may lose momentum of any combo available to him.

No action is needed to do this, but the choice is made as the damage is taken. Any amount of momentum may be sacrificed to prevent an equivalent amount of damage. This ability does not work outside of combat, but the knight exemplar takes half damage out of combat.

If the knight exemplar already has momentous defence from another source, he gains the next level of it, as the relevant guardian immortal ability.

Momentous Assault

From third level, so long as the knight exemplar is in combat, he may sacrifice any number of points of momentum to increase the damage of a single attack by the same number. This is counted as precision damage, and also does not cause momentum gain for obvious reasons. This does not take an action and the knight exemplar makes his decision when he makes the attack roll.

If the knight exemplar already has momentous assault from another source, he gains the next level of it, as the relevant paragon militant ability.

Moment of Calm

Once per round from fourth level, the knight exemplar may take a swift action even if he has no swift action to use. To do this, he must give up 25 momentum. He may also take a five foot step once per round even if he has already moved, including another five foot step. This also costs him 25 momentum.

Zero Moment

The knight exemplar may, at fifth level, cause a zero moment once per encounter. The zero moment does not take an action but instead causes anything, action or otherwise, to use no momentum - he can choose to spend an amount of momentum equal to or less than the maximum momentum (usually 420) for any finishing move, and may use any of his other abilities (With the exception of a Momentous Assault dealing more than 200 points of damage) without actually spending momentum on it.


Classes that don't exist yet:

The Veteran Superior
The Champion Transcendent

Combo Descriptions

Each combo has numerous different pieces of information attached to it, which combine to give the description. Take this combo as an example:

Replenishing Blade !DA1
Level: Disciple Apparent 1
Use in Peace: No.
Effect: Your attacks heal you for an amount equal to half the damage you deal, plus one tenth of your momentum.
Finish: You heal for an amount equal to the momentum spent.

Replenishing Blade is the name of this particular combo. !DA1 is shorthand telling you that this is a combo (!) usable by disciples apparent (DA) at 1st combo level (1), making it easier to use control+f to find, for example, all first-level disciple apparent combos.

Level is simply the level of the combo and which classes can use it at that level. Use in peace determines whether you can use the combo outside of combat. Effect determines the effect when you actually hit an enemy with an attack of such a combo, besides gaining Momentum - note that any mention of the amount of Momentum you have only refers to Momentum from that combo, and before extra Momentum is added for making the attack. Finish determines the additional effect if you spend momentum during a finishing move.

Blinding Blade !DA1
Level: Disciple Apparent 1
Use in Peace: Yes.
Effect: Your attacks cause your opponent to take a penalty on their next attack roll this round equal to a quarter of the damage you dealt. This does not stack, but instead each hit affects the next attack roll made by the opponent in the same round.
Finish: The struck creature's attacks or spells requiring a target other than himself, as well as all spot, balance, sleight of hand checks or other skill checks which require vision, have a percentage chance of failure equal to the momentum spent for one round. If more than 100 momentum is spent, the remaining momentum causes a chance of failure in the next round, and so forth for subsequent rounds if over 200 is spent.

Cobra Strike !DA3
Level: Disciple Apparent 3
Use in Peace: No.
Effect: Your attacks heal you and all allies within 50 feet for an amount equal to half the damage you deal, plus one tenth of your momentum.
Finish: You, and all allies within 50 feet, heal for an amount equal to the momentum spent.

Inferno Blade, Lesser !DA1
Level: Disciple Apparent 1
Use in Peace: Yes.
Effect: Your attacks do half fire damage and the other half the normal damage type. All fire damage from this effect is lethal, even if you use an unarmed strike or a whip (which also still deals fire damage to armoured targets) or if you deliberately do nonlethal damage with your attack. You also do fire damage equal to one tenth of your momentum.
Finish: The finishing move does normal damage, plus an amount of fire damage equal to the momentum spent.

Inferno Blade !DA2
Level: Disciple Apparent 2
Use in Peace: Yes.
Effect: Your attacks do fire damage equal to the attack's base damage, but only half the amount of damage of the normal damage type. All fire damage from this effect is lethal, even if you use an unarmed strike or a whip (which also still deals fire damage to armoured targets) or if you deliberately do nonlethal damage with your attack. You also do fire damage equal to one fifth of your momentum.
Finish: The finishing move does normal damage, plus an amount of fire damage equal to the momentum spent. Foes within 5 feet of the target also take this effect, but can take a reflex save for half damage (DC 12 plus your strength modifier).

Inferno Blade, Greater !DA3
Level: Disciple Apparent 3
Use in Peace: Yes.
Effect: Your attacks do fire damage equal to the attack's base damage. All fire damage from this effect is lethal, even if you use an unarmed strike or a whip (which also still deals fire damage to armoured targets) or if you deliberately do nonlethal damage with your attack. You also do fire damage equal to one half of your momentum.
Finish: The finishing move does normal damage, plus an amount of fire damage equal to the momentum spent, times one and a quarter. Foes within 10 feet of the target also take this effect, but can take a reflex save for half damage (DC 13 plus your strength modifier).

Inferno Blade, Major !PM4 !VS4
Level: Paragon Militant 4, Veteran Superior 4
Use in Peace: Yes.
Effect: Your attacks do fire damage equal to one and a half times the attack's base damage. All fire damage from this effect is lethal, even if you use an unarmed strike or a whip (which also still deals fire damage to armoured targets) or if you deliberately do nonlethal damage with your attack. You also do fire damage equal to three quarters of your momentum.
Finish: The finishing move does normal damage, plus an amount of fire damage equal to one and a half times the momentum spent. Foes within 15 feet of the target also take this effect, but can take a reflex save for half damage (DC 14 plus your strength modifier).

Inferno Blade, Superior !PM5 !VS5 !KE 5
Level: Paragon Militant 5, Veteran Superior 5, Knight Exemplar 5
Use in Peace: Yes.
Effect: Your attacks do fire damage equal to two times the attack's base damage. All fire damage from this effect is lethal, even if you use an unarmed strike or a whip (which also still deals fire damage to armoured targets) or if you deliberately do nonlethal damage with your attack. You also do fire damage equal to your momentum.
Finish: The finishing move does normal damage, plus an amount of fire damage equal to twice the momentum spent. Foes within 20 feet of the target also take this effect, but can take a reflex save for half damage (DC 15 plus your strength modifier).

Inferno Blade, Superlative !PM6 !VS6 !KE6
Level: Paragon Militant 6, Veteran Superior 6, Knight Exemplar 6
Use in Peace: Yes.
Effect: Your attacks do fire damage equal to three times the attack's base damage. All fire damage from this effect is lethal, even if you use an unarmed strike or a whip (which also still deals fire damage to armoured targets) or if you deliberately do nonlethal damage with your attack. You also do fire damage equal to one and a half times your momentum.
Finish: The finishing move does normal damage, plus an amount of fire damage equal to three times the momentum spent. Foes within 25 feet of the target also take this effect, but can take a reflex save for half damage (DC 16 plus your strength modifier).

Replenishing Blade !DA1
Level: Disciple Apparent 1
Use in Peace: No.
Effect: Your attacks heal you for an amount equal to half the damage you deal, plus one tenth of your momentum.
Finish: You heal for an amount equal to the momentum spent.

Restoring Blade !DA2
Level: Disciple Apparent 2
Use in Peace: No.
Effect: Your attacks heal you and a single ally within 50 feet for an amount equal to half the damage you deal, plus one tenth of your momentum.
Finish: You, and an ally within 50 feet, heal for an amount equal to the momentum spent.

Sky-walk !DA3
level: Disciple Apparent 3
Use in Peace: Yes.
Effect: While you have momentum with Sky-walk, you can walk on thin air as though there were something solid there. This costs 5 momentum for each 5 feet of horizontal movement, which also allows you to take 5 feet of vertical movement at the same time.
Finish: Unlike most combos, you cannot make a finishing attack with Sky-walk.

Thorns !GI4
Level: Guardian Immortal 4
Use in Peace: No
Effect: When you are attacked or targeted with a spell, if you have momentum with Thorns, you can deal damage to one fifth of your momentum to the attacker.
Finish: You create a thorny area in a 30 foot radius around the target. You and your allies can move through the thorns unharmed, but enemies who do so take damage equal to one tenth of the spent momentum for each thorny square they enter. The thorny area becomes safe 5 rounds later.


Finishing Move Descriptions

Like a combo, a finishing move has multiple different features. Take this finishing move as an example:

Force Fangs ?PM4
Level: Paragon Militant 4
Effect: You launch two fangs of force, each dealing 1d4+1 damage to a target within 50 feet. The fangs both hit automatically. Both fangs apply the finish effect of the combo as normal.
Cooldown: 3 rounds.

Force Fangs is the name of this particular finishing move. ?PM4 is shorthand telling you that this is a finishing move (?) usable by paragons militant (PM) at 4th finishing move level (4), making it easier to use control+f to find, for example, all fourth-level paragon militant finishing moves.

Level is simply the level of the finishing move and which classes can use it at that level. Effect determines the effect when you use that finishing move - some finishing moves do not take normal attack actions to use, which will be shown in the description.

Cooldown is what restricts you from repeatedly using finishing moves - once you have used a finishing move, you must wait for the duration of the cooldown before using the same finishing move again.

Abrupt Strike ?DA3
Level: Disciple Apparent 3
Effect: As an immediate action during your turn, you kick an enemy. You are considered proficient in your unarmed strike and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Cooldown: 2 rounds.

Blade Shield ?GI5
Level: Guardian Immortal 5
Effect: A whirling mass of blades forms in a 10 foot radius around you, bringing death to those who would fight you. Anyone within 10 feet of you at the end of each of your turns, or who moves through the blades on their turn (although this can be avoided by anything that would avoid an attack of opportunity), or who is moved past by the blades, is struck by the blades. They take 2d6 damage, plus damage equal to twice your constitution modifier, and the finish effect of the combo you used.

The blades shatter after 3 rounds or 5 hits.
Cooldown: 5 minutes.

Bladestorm Stride ?VS5
Level: Veteran Superior 5
Effect: As a full-round action, you make a full attack action with a few exceptions. For each attack you could make, you move up to your movement value, ignoring foes in your path, and attack each enemy you move through at the relevant base attack bonus.

If you are armed with a ranged weapon, you instead make the move and attack a single opponent in range each time.
Cooldown: 5 minutes.

Cautious Strike !DA1
Level: Disciple Apparent 1
Effect: You make an attack, and also gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the end of the turn (even if the attack doesn't hit).
Cooldown: 2 rounds.

Devastating Strike ?DA3
Level: Disciple Apparent 3
Effect: You make an attack, which not only hits but both threatens and confirms a critical hit without needing to roll.
Cooldown: 3 rounds.

Force Fangs ?PM4
Level: Paragon Militant 4
Effect: You launch two fangs of force, each dealing 1d4+1 damage to a target within 50 feet. The fangs both hit automatically. Both fangs apply the finish effect of the combo as normal.
Cooldown: 3 rounds.

Golden Cannon ?PM5
Level: Paragon Militant 5
Effect: As a full-round action, you jump 15 feet into the air, and create a beam of golden light which is a cylinder 100 feet long with a radius of 30 feet (meaning that a portion of the beam is below ground). Creatures hit by the beam take 10d6 damage, plus five times the paragon militant's strength modifier. This is untyped damage and is not subject to any resistances. It damages all creatures in the area, but nothing else. Any form of obstruction, physical or magical, fails against such an attack, save for the power of an anti-magic field which still requires a caster level check of DC 10, plus the user's total levels in combo-using classes, just to protect the area actually encompassed by the field.
Cooldown: 5 minutes.

Judgement Blade ?KE5
Level: Knight Exemplar 5
Effect: As a full-round action, you call upon the reserves of might within your perfect self to bring down a great weapon of holy light, blinding evil or perfect radiance. In any case, a giant sword (Slashing), maul (Bludgeoning) or lance (Piercing) descends from the heavens. You choose which weapon falls, but it must be one dealing some type of damage that you might have dealt with one of your wielded weapons.

In any case, the weapon descends from 1000 feet in the sky, above a location of your choosing within 200 feet. The weapon has a radius of 30 feet, and strikes everything within the 1000 ft tall, 30 ft radius cylinder. Flying creatures may take a reflex save (DC 15 + your strength modifier), otherwise they are dragged down to the ground with the weapon. Creatures on the ground must take the same save or fall prone.

Regardless of the results of the reflex save, creatures struck by the weapon take 10d6 damage, plus five times the user's strength modifier, and also the effect of the combo used. Inanimate objects except for constructs, undead and other creatures are immune; the weapon passes through them.

Incorporeal and ethereal creatures are still struck by the holy blade, and it passes through protection, magical or no, with impunity. Even an anti-magic field requires that its caster take a caster level check against a DC of 10 + the number of levels in combo classes possessed by the user to stop the weapon's might, and even if this is done only the sections actually covered by the field are protected from the weapon.

The weapon, once finished, disappears into the ground. It may hit subterranean creatures in so doing, but in most cases the destruction is over.
Cooldown: Five minutes.

Light Spear ?VS4 ?PM4
Level: Veteran Superior 4, Paragon Militant 4
Effect: As a full-round action, you spin around so fast that your spin carries you upwards. You attack all enemies adjacent to you, move up five feet, attack all adjacent enemies again, move up another five feet and attack all adjacent enemies once more before landing. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Each attack can release a different combo, but each combo's finish effect only applies to a single attack.

If you have a ranged weapon, you instead stand where you are and make a ranged attack against all enemies you have a line of effect to.

In any case, all attacks are made at your highest base attack bonus.
Cooldown: 6 rounds.

Resolute Smite ?GI4
Level: Guardian Immortal 4
Effect: As an immediate action during your turn, you bash an opponent with your shield (If you have access to this ability and are using a tower shield, it is considered to have a d8 damage die). You are always considered proficient with the shield, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity with it.
Cooldown: 3 rounds

Shining Spear ?VS5 ?PM5
Level: Veteran Superior 5, Paragon Militant 5
Effect: As a full-round action, you spin around so fast that your spin carries you upwards. You attack all enemies adjacent to you, move up five feet, attack all adjacent enemies again, move up another five feet and attack all adjacent enemies once more before landing. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Unlike Light Spear, a single combo can be used to apply to as many of these attacks as you wish.

If you have a ranged weapon, you instead stand where you are and make a ranged attack against all enemies you have a line of effect to.

In any case, all attacks are made at your highest base attack bonus.
Cooldown: 6 rounds.

Smash ?DA1
Level: Disciple Apparent 1
Effect: You make an attack dealing double damage.
Cooldown: 3 rounds.

Stand United ?KE5 ?GI5
Level: Knight Exemplar 5, Guardian Immortal 5
Effect: You, and up to 6 allies within 50 feet, make attacks. All such attacks apply the finishing move's finish effect.
Cooldown: 5 minutes.

Sudden Charge ?DA2
Level: Disciple Apparent 2
Effect: You Charge, even though that would normally be a full-round action. If you are wielding a ranged weapon, you Withdraw and then make your attack normally.
Cooldown: 3 rounds.

True Shot ?DA2
Level: Disciple Apparent 2
Effect: You make an attack which hits regardless of the result of the roll. You still roll to threaten and confirm a critical hit.
Cooldown: 3 rounds.

Skill Combo Descriptions

Like other combos, skill combos have numerous pieces of information attached to them. Unlike other combos, skill combos are considered (Ex) abilities unless specified otherwise.

Silver Tongue $DA3
Level: Disciple Apparent 3
Effect: You make a diplomacy check each round, against one or more creatures. While you succeed (DC 10 + half the targets' highest hit dice + the targets' highest wisdom modifier + twice the number of creatures being affected after the first), these creatures are considered Fascinated until such a time as hostile action is taken against them, at which point they are immune to the effect for one minute, or until you fail (or do not make) a check, at which point they act as normal until you make the check again.

If you are not in combat or immediately threatened, you can also make some sort of deal or suggestion each round. So long as it is vaguely reasonable, the target will comply with it. The more you beat the DC by, the more complex, dangerous or disadvantageous the suggestions that the targets might accept.

You gain a +1 bonus on the skill check per 10 points of momentum.
Finish: ?
Silver Tongue is the name of this particular skill combo. $DA2 is shorthand telling you that this is a skill combo ($) usable by disciples apparent (DA) at 3rd combo level (3), making it easier to use control+f to find, for example, all second-level disciple apparent skill combos.

The layout of skill combos is largely the same as that of other combos, and they have similar effects.

Golden Tongue $CT5
Level: Champion Transcendent 5
Effect: You make a diplomacy check each round, against one or more creatures. While you succeed (DC 10 + half the targets' highest hit dice + the targets' highest wisdom modifier + twice the number of creatures being affected after the first), these creatures are considered Fascinated and Helpless (Will 15 + your charisma modifier negates the Helpless condition, but not the Fascinated condition) until such a time as hostile action is taken against them, at which point they are immune to the effect for one minute, or until you fail (or do not make) a check, at which point they act as normal until you make the check again.

If you are not in combat or immediately threatened, you can also make some sort of deal or suggestion each round. So long as it is vaguely reasonable, the target will comply with it. The more you beat the DC by, the more complex, dangerous or disadvantageous the suggestions that the targets might accept.

You gain a +1 bonus on the skill check per 5 points of momentum.
Finish: ?

Silver Tongue $DA3
Level: Disciple Apparent 3
Effect: You make a diplomacy check each round, against one or more creatures. While you succeed (DC 10 + half the targets' highest hit dice + the targets' highest wisdom modifier + twice the number of creatures being affected after the first), these creatures are considered Fascinated until such a time as hostile action is taken against them, at which point they are immune to the effect for one minute, or until you fail (or do not make) a check, at which point they act as normal until you make the check again.

If you are not in combat or immediately threatened, you can also make some sort of deal or suggestion each round. So long as it is vaguely reasonable, the target will comply with it. The more you beat the DC by, the more complex, dangerous or disadvantageous the suggestions that the targets might accept.

You gain a +1 bonus on the skill check per 10 points of momentum.
Finish: ?

Smoke and Mirrors $CA4
Level: Champion Ascendant 4
Effect: By making a sleight of hand check each round against all creatures you wish to convince (DC 10 + half the targets' highest hit dice + the targets' highest wisdom modifier + twice the number of creatures being affected after the first), you make an illusion appear. The illusion can be any size category up to colossal, may fly, may cast spells or powers, and may move up to 200 feet from your location. Will disbelief (DC 14 + your dexterity modifier) is allowed to save against the effect.
Finish: ?

NichG
2014-05-07, 03:17 PM
I'm going to propose that you completely revise the way the momentum system works, to the following:

- This class can build momentum from the successes of its allies. Every time another party member succeeds on a meaningful skill check, ability check, saving throw, or attack roll, this builds up one point of Momentum. However, a given person cannot generate a second point of Momentum until everyone else has produced one (the 'round-robin rule'); this limit resets every round during a fight, but otherwise applies. Momentum cannot be sustained for more than 1 minute per class level.

When a complete challenge is overcome whose CR is at least equal to the party's ECL-2 (e.g. an encounter is defeated) this generates three points of momentum that disregard the round-robin rule.

So for example, if the party is trying to get through a locked and trapped door, they can each try things - picking the lock, searching for a key, trying to find a hidden mechanism, etc. If someone succeeds and finds the trap, that generates 1 point from their successful check. If the same person also springs the lock and disables the trap, it doesn't generate any additional points from those successes, but it does generate three points from passing the encounter.

- Momentum can be expended to power various abilities (cue list of moves, learn one new move each level, make each move scale with level).

Jormengand
2014-05-07, 03:41 PM
I'm going to propose that you completely revise the way the momentum system works, to the following

That means that you literally cannot form a party with a blaster wizard, because they don't make attack rolls, skill checks and so forth. It's also not what the class does - that would be fine for a class that drew from the strength of its allies, but this is a martial class, not a teamwork class.

Also, good luck if an ally falls unconscious, or you don't have any allies. You are now useless for the rest of the fight.

NichG
2014-05-07, 03:49 PM
That means that you literally cannot form a party with a blaster wizard, because they don't make attack rolls, skill checks and so forth. It's also not what the class does - that would be fine for a class that drew from the strength of its allies, but this is a martial class, not a teamwork class.

Also, good luck if an ally falls unconscious, or you don't have any allies. You are now useless for the rest of the fight.

Of course you can form a party with a blaster wizard - in combat, the round-robin rule resets every round so it doesn't matter if they don't make checks. Outside of combat, they can absolutely do things like make a Knowledge check, Spellcraft check, etc. And you still get the momentum from encounters which end up being resolved. Anyhow, whether its die rolls or something else can be fiddled with, but making it based on successful checks was the easiest way to make it mechanically explicit (rather than handwavy things like 'whenever an ally takes an action that moves the story along')

What I'm getting at is that what you seem to want is not actually a martial class. The problems you're having are due to trying to shoehorn non-martial things into an explicitly martial presentation. Putting aside preconceptions about whether its martial or not, the basic gist of what you described was 'a class that builds up momentum as it goes, and then can spend it to do flashy things'. The core of the idea of building up momentum is that as things progress through the course of a story/encounter/whatever, the class gains access to its abilities. That idea can exist outside of the concept of battle, so its best to start as broad as possible and then narrow things down rather than start with the combat and try to extend outwards.

Jormengand
2014-05-07, 03:54 PM
What I'm getting at is that what you seem to want is not actually a martial class. The problems you're having are due to trying to shoehorn non-martial things into an explicitly martial presentation. Putting aside preconceptions about whether its martial or not, the basic gist of what you described was 'a class that builds up momentum as it goes, and then can spend it to do flashy things'. The core of the idea of building up momentum is that as things progress through the course of a story/encounter/whatever, the class gains access to its abilities. That idea can exist outside of the concept of battle, so its best to start as broad as possible and then narrow things down rather than start with the combat and try to extend outwards.

But... The reason Momentum scales off damage is because I want a martial class, so I make it scale off damage because martial classes deal damage. That's, like, the entire point of Momentum.

Your idea is dragging it even further away from the martial class I'm looking for.

Metahuman1
2014-05-07, 06:04 PM
Here are some things you can do.

1: Skills and a good chassie. Be generous with your list of class skills, your number of skill points per level, your hit die size, your save progressions and your BAB progression. This helps a lot by passively making you more effective and survivable in and out of combat, and giving you lot's of options that give you tools other then "I hit it.". Knowledge skills, UMD/UPD, Scouting/Stealth Skills, Tumble, Balance, Autohypnosis, Maybe Iai-jutsu focus, social interaction skills, there's a lot of application to mine here. Also add's versatility so that one character of this class can say be all about talking to people and combat uses for bluff and intimidate, and another can be rocking knowledge deviation and knowledge monkeying to contribute more, and a third can be the party's very effective designated scout.

2: Actively go after MAD. Make sure that there is no way to build this class that doesn't involve deliberate nerfing themselves that requires more then at the maximum 3 relevant stats. Ideally make it so that that's the baseline and with a bit of effort and system mastery they could get it down to 1 with little/no dipping.

3: Consider letting building momentum earn them another secondary benefit. Let's call it "Awesome Points" for now. Awesome Points to squat for damage effects but build at a marginally slower rate when you build momentum points. Awesome points are spent to do cool none damage things. Extra ordinary ability copy's of certain spell (running really fast to imitate water walking/spider climb/silent image with an after image. Just off the top of my head.) or can net you something like say, rerolling a save or a missed attack roll after you already know you blew it. Not nearly as powerful as most proper magic systems, but useful, synergistic, and gives better versatility then not having it.



Do all or even likely just most of this with your Momentum mechanic for damage added on and your likely gonna get a tier 3 class out of the deal. =)

Jormengand
2014-05-08, 10:56 AM
Here are some things you can do.

1: Skills and a good chassie. Be generous with your list of class skills, your number of skill points per level, your hit die size, your save progressions and your BAB progression. This helps a lot by passively making you more effective and survivable in and out of combat, and giving you lot's of options that give you tools other then "I hit it.". Knowledge skills, UMD/UPD, Scouting/Stealth Skills, Tumble, Balance, Autohypnosis, Maybe Iai-jutsu focus, social interaction skills, there's a lot of application to mine here. Also add's versatility so that one character of this class can say be all about talking to people and combat uses for bluff and intimidate, and another can be rocking knowledge deviation and knowledge monkeying to contribute more, and a third can be the party's very effective designated scout.

First, I'd like to thank you for sticking with what I want this class to do. :smallsmile:

The trouble I find with U(M/P)D is that the only magic/psionic items that a martial class you'd see in a game like Diablo II or Tales of Symphonia, that is to say the typical superhuman-but-still-martial classes, are the type of items that don't actually require UMD/UPD checks in D&D anyway - Lloyd consumes potion-equivalents and later on wields magic swords, but while you can imagine the more rogue-y/assassin-y classes starting to throw UMD'd fireballs at things, that looks kinda out of place if Lloyd or Diablo II's barbarian started doing it.

That said, I could easily make up for it by chucking tons of other skills about.


2: Actively go after MAD. Make sure that there is no way to build this class that doesn't involve deliberate nerfing themselves that requires more then at the maximum 3 relevant stats. Ideally make it so that that's the baseline and with a bit of effort and system mastery they could get it down to 1 with little/no dipping.

Well, I guess I will make the skill combo save DCs based on the relevant skill's ability score, then. :smalltongue:


3: Consider letting building momentum earn them another secondary benefit. Let's call it "Awesome Points" for now. Awesome Points to squat for damage effects but build at a marginally slower rate when you build momentum points. Awesome points are spent to do cool none damage things. Extra ordinary ability copy's of certain spell (running really fast to imitate water walking/spider climb/silent image with an after image. Just off the top of my head.) or can net you something like say, rerolling a save or a missed attack roll after you already know you blew it. Not nearly as powerful as most proper magic systems, but useful, synergistic, and gives better versatility then not having it.

This is a cool idea, and I am tempted to call it "Inertia" just to do further injury to physics. :smalltongue:


Do all or even likely just most of this with your Momentum mechanic for damage added on and your likely gonna get a tier 3 class out of the deal. =)

Yay! Thank you. :smallbiggrin:

Hanuman
2014-05-10, 02:45 AM
I have a combo system called Groove in an unfinished class on the way far backburner.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?283433-JET-SET-RADIO-3-P-Baseclass-P-E-A-C-H

If you find this useful check out my current project linked in my signature.