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Garonak
2014-05-07, 07:12 AM
This is the second version of my PrC, i posted the original in the D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 forum, but I feel this is probably the best place to get feedback. The original (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?340003-Defender-%28PrC-homebrew%29) - with some discussion



1. 11.05.2014: Switched places between Shield Ally and Bulwark of Defense; added Improved Taunt; changed taunts per day; added cover; changed some wording
2. 13.05.2014: Taunts per day (1/2 lvl + con); resistances on Shield Ally; Shield Mastery; status; increased Shield Block
3. 13.05.2014 (2): Armor Mastery
4. 13.05.2014 (3): Changed Imp SA to deflect attack; Greater SA to give counter strike
5. 14.05.2104: Armor Mastery changed to Second Skin; Linguistical changes
6. 31.05.2014: Added concealment to Shield Savant
7. 01.06.2014: Removed Shield Ward from prerequisites, added prerequisites apply to bonus feats
8. 26.06.2014: Changed Shield Ally to be AOO-based; changed level 3 bonus feat to modified Combat Reflexes; added Balanced Shield; Made Tower Shield two-handed
9. 29.06.2014: Changed som wording here and there. Moved Second Skin to level 6.


- Mettle
- Good Will
- Reach. Either flat +5ft or double.
- Shield and Pike feat (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Shield_and_Pike_Style)



The Defender

The aim of the Defender is to draw fire and protect their comrades so that they can do what they do best without worrying about what the enemies might do in return.
Alignment: any. Though Defenders tend to be lawful, people of all alignments can see the value of keeping an ally alive from time to time.

Prerequisites:
Feats: Shield Specialization, Improved Shield Bash
Skills: Intimidate 8 ranks
Base attack: +5

Table 1-1: THE DEFENDER Hit Dice: D12


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special


1
+1
+2
+0
+0
Stunning Shield, Taunt, Shield Mastery


2
+2
+3
+0
+0
DR 1/-, Shield Ally


3
+3
+3
+1
+1
Combat Reflexes, Bulwark of Defense, Shield Block +1


4
+4
+4
+1
+1
DR 2/-, Cover, status


5
+5
+4
+1
+1
Shield Block +2, Balanced Shield, Improved Bulwark of Defense


6
+6
+5
+2
+2
Bonus feat, Second Skin, DR 3/-


7
+7
+5
+2
+2
Improved Shield Ally, Shield Block +3


8
+8
+6
+2
+2
DR 4/-, Improved Taunt


9
+9
+6
+3
+3
Bonus feat, Shield Block +4


10
+10
+7
+3
+3
DR 5/-, Greater Shield Ally, Shield Savant


Class skills (4 + Int modifier per level): Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim.

Class features:
Stunning Shield (Ex): Functions like the feat (see below), except the Defender adds half her class level to the DC. In addition a Defender receives an additional use per day per class level.
Taunt (Ex): As a swift action (1/2 class level + con per day) the Defender can issue a challenge across the battlefield. The Defender makes an intimidate check opposed by the targetsí modified level check (see Intimidate), if the check succeeds the targets feel compelled to attack the Defender to the best of their ability for a number of rounds equal to the Defenderís class level. Even if the check fails the targets feel that the Defender is someone that should be dealt with, though they are not compelled to attack. The ability affects one creature per class level, starting with the enemy closest who is not attacking the Defender. The Defender receives a -4 on her check if the target does not speak the same language and a -8 if the target has an Intelligence score of 3 or less. Mindless creatures are immune to this ability.
Shield Mastery (Ex): The Defender is a true master of wielding a shield in combat, both defensively and as a weapon. Beginning at level 1 the Defender can Shield Bash with any shield, even if she would normally not be able to, such as with Extreme and Tower shields. Damage for such shield is calculated based on Heavy shield, ie. Extreme Shield does 1d8 while Tower Shield does 2d6 damage (as a two-handed weapon).
Damage Reduction (Ex): At level 2 the Defender receives Damage Reduction 1/- which stacks with all other forms of damage reduction. At every even level after level 2 the DR increases by one.
Shield Ally (Ex): Starting at 2nd level you can opt to absorb part of the damage dealt to an adjacent ally. Each time this ally takes damage from a physical attack before your next turn, you can take half this damage on yourself. The target takes the other half as normal. You can only absorb damage from physical melee attacks and ranged attacks, such as an incoming arrow or a blow from a sword, not from spells and other effects. Any resistances you have apply to the damage you absorb. The use of this ability counts as an Attack of Opportunity. [wording?]
Bulwark of Defense (Ex): When you reach 3rd level, an opponent treats all the squares that you threaten as difficult terrain. Your strict vigilance and active defensive maneuvers force your opponents to move with care.
Combat Reflexes: At level 3 the Defender receives Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat, however, the Defender may choose to base the feat on her constitution bonus instead of her dexterity bonus.
Shield Block (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, you excel in using your armor and shield to frustrate your enemies' attacks. You receive a +1 bonus to your shield AC. In addition, during your action, designate a single opponent as the target of this ability. Your shield bonus to AC against that foe increases by 1, as you move your shield to deflect an incoming blow, possibly providing just enough protection to turn telling swing into a near miss. These shield bonuses increase to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 7th level and +4 at level 9 [this means you get a static +1 to AC, which increases to +2 against a single opponent - doubles at level 5 to +2/+4, +3/+6 at level 7 and +4/+8 at level 9]
Cover (Ex): Beginning at level 4, whenever a Defender has to roll a Reflex save to reduce damage, she may add her shield AC to the roll.
Status (Sp): Beginning at level 4 the Defender gains the ability to keep a close watch on her allies' situation in the chaos of combat. Three times a day the Defender can use status as a spell-like ability with a caster level of 10. The save is charisma-based.
Balanced Shield (Ex): Beginning at level 5 the Defender, while wielding a shield, reduces any penalties for fighting with two weapons by 2.
Improved Bulwark of Defense (Ex): At level 5 any opponent that you threaten takes a ó4 penalty on attack rolls against your allies.
Bonus feat: At level 6 and 9 the Defender receives a bonus feat. She can choose between: Combat Reflexes, Greater Heavy Armor Optimization, Great Fortitude, Heavy Armor Optimization, Improved Toughness and any feat that has Shield Proficiency as a prerequisite. A Defender must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
Second Skin (Ex): Beginning at level 6 the Defender treats all armor as light for the purpose of movement, fatigue and sleeping in armor.
Improved Shield Ally (Ex): Starting at 7th level your ability to protect allies improves further, allowing you to interpose yourself between your allies and your foes, secure in the protection of your armor. When using your Shield Ally ability you may opt to redirect the attack to yourself. The attack is then resolved normally, but against your AC instead of your ally's. You must decide whether to use this ability after the attacker determines who to attack, but before any dice have been rolled
Improved Taunt (Ex): Beginning at level 8 the Defenderís Taunt ability also affects creatures normally immune to fear, though they get a +5 on their modified level check.
Greater Shield Ally (Ex): When using Improved Shield Ally to deflect an attack against an ally, you get the option to Shield Bash the attacker (and apply Stunning Shield), this attack occurs after the result of the opponent's attack has been resolved. In addition the Defender may now absorb damage from spells and spell-like abilities that require an attack roll (such as rays).
Shield Savant (Ex): Beginning at level 10 the Defender has become so adept at using her shield that she becomes immune to flanking while having readied a shield. The Defender also receives 50% fortification (which stacks with other forms of fortification) while wielding a shield. In addition the Defender gains concealment (though you cannot use this to hide) against the designated enemy for Shield Block.


New Feats

STUNNING SHIELD

Prerequisites
Str 13, Con 13, Improved Shield Bash, base attack bonus +8.
Benefits:
You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Shield forces a foe damaged by your shield bash to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + Ĺ your character level + your Con modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A target who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action). A stunned creature drops everything held, canít take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained, and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Special: A Fighter may choose this as a bonus feat

Thoughts?

Composer99
2014-05-07, 08:23 AM
So you have to be 5th level (if you have full BAB) to pick up this PrC, and then wait 3 levels until you actually get an ability that actively protects your allies?

I wonder if you should include the following:

A 1st-level version of Shield Ally, where as a swift action you can designate one adjacent ally, who then gets half your shield's bonus to AC?
Some kind of method for adding your shield's bonus to AC to Reflex saves (e.g. versus dragon breath weapons, ŗ la Prince Phillip fighting Maleficent).
A strong Will save.
Change the times/day for taunt so you get more times/day early on and it scales up more slowly (say, start with a base of 3 and add 7/10 per level, round fractions down, so you still finish with 10).
Combat reflexes as a bonus feat.
Some sort of "marking" mechanism similar to 4e, either in addition to or in place of the taunt mechanism. (Marking does not compel creatures to attack you, but instead punishes them for failing to do so, usually by granting you extra damage on, say, attacks of opportunity.)
Increase the area of your difficult terrain effect at higher levels.


Basically, the class has decent protection against hit point damage, but needs to be able to control the battlefield more, especially early on, and have more defence against attacks targeting weak saves. You're going into it for 6th level at the earliest, by which time (IMO) you're already a "Big Damn Hero".

Veklim
2014-05-07, 08:54 AM
I largely agree, it lacks a bit in the first few levels because it doesn't actually start doing what it's core design says it does until later...

Mettle and some sort of shield specific evasion would be fairly obvious choices, but I'd consider making them only active whilst you are wielding a shield. Taunt is a good start, but augmenting it with a marking system is very nice and 1/day/level doesn't make it enough to cover your lack of ally defending capabilities at early levels.

You might consider putting a little of 3.0's Devoted Defender into this too, if they could chose a 'ward' from 1st level then it would cover that hole on the class nicely.

Otherwise, really nice class, I would suggest one small wording change though...in the DR section, I'd replace the words 'At every other level' with 'At every even level' simply to avoid confusion.

Andion Isurand
2014-05-07, 10:38 PM
I would check out and possibly adopt some wording from the mindless rage spell or the Goad feat.... or write in "Taunt" as a combat maneuver or skill use option similar to using Intimidate to demoralize a foe... and make it something anyone can try and do... except those with levels in your prestige class can do it more quickly and to more opponents at once.

Gildedragon
2014-05-07, 11:01 PM
So the Taunt ability can be more elegantly written as "a number of times per day equal to your defender level"
just as a way to reduce text. As such it can be had just once on the table as Taunt.
On it: Intimidate doesn't seem like necessarily the best skill for that, as fear resistance shouldn't come into play. You aren't scaring your target, you're provoking them into attacking you.

Also there ought be a way to negate the damage taken by shielding others; maybe if your AC (denied it dex bonus) exceeds the attack roll...

Andion Isurand
2014-05-07, 11:05 PM
Perhaps then, a use of the Bluff skill could be used to taunt a foe.

Veklim
2014-05-08, 05:25 PM
Perhaps then, a use of the Bluff skill could be used to taunt a foe.

The trouble is class skill lists here. Intimidate is accessible by any of the likely entry classes whereas Bluff won't be. I can see the fluff reason for wanting Bluff, but Intimidate fits well enough if the idea behind the ability is to convince your enemy that you're the biggest, badest threat on the field. Simply put, it NEEDS to be intimidate, because any character looking at this PrC is going to have severe issues getting the ranks up in bluff.

Gildedragon
2014-05-08, 05:44 PM
The trouble is class skill lists here. Intimidate is accessible by any of the likely entry classes whereas Bluff won't be. I can see the fluff reason for wanting Bluff, but Intimidate fits well enough if the idea behind the ability is to convince your enemy that you're the biggest, badest threat on the field. Simply put, it NEEDS to be intimidate, because any character looking at this PrC is going to have severe issues getting the ranks up in bluff.

Except one can reduce the entry ranks to 4 as standard with a CC skill.
One could add the "special: must have willingly taken damage meant for another character"
which reminds me, there is a feat that does just that: Good Karma [luck]

Veklim
2014-05-08, 07:06 PM
Except one can reduce the entry ranks to 4 as standard with a CC skill.

So you're suggesting a PrC designed primarily for fighting classes should avoid using the one and only social skill most of those classes have in favour of honestly wasted cross class ranks in a skill they will otherwise have no good use for. Bluff is a skill which is hard to justify having less than max ranks in if you're going to put any ranks in at all, it just isn't a 'fighter type' skill, whereas Intimidate certainly is. I still don't see how being the most imposing person on the battlefield fails to meet criteria for an ability which makes enemies want to deal with you quickly. A skinny rogue type trying to pull agro will need to bluff it, because they AREN'T an obvious main target otherwise, a hefty bugger with a hammer and a shield need only make themselves obvious to get that agro, so Intimidate makes MORE sense for them. This isn't a skillmonkey or a trickster, it's not a puny mage, it's a big beefy fighter. The big beefy fighter doesn't need to bluff anyone into seeing him as a threat, he just needs to make enough noise to ensure everyone looks at him and sees the obvious threat he already is.

Gildedragon
2014-05-08, 07:38 PM
Couple points:

I am not saying they ought avoid intimidate; I am saying that Bluff is (mechanically) better suited for the task. Ideally they could do both bluffing and intimidating.

But:

The taunt check is the same as the regular intimidate one that induces the shaken state, which is generally more useful (see the usual fear-inducing builds)
The taunt check (as is) has to overcome fear resistances (bard effects, items, paladin effects, spells) as it is identical to a standard intimidate check. It really oughtn't have to bother with these bonuses; you are not trying to induce fear (you're trying to anger or goad or convince). On top of that fear immunity means they can't be taunted "A character immune to fear canít be intimidated, nor can nonintelligent creatures." So if you fight an antipaladin or an ooze one can't target them

Bluff's regular uses (such as convincing someone to do something, conveying a message, and creating diversions) seem closer to taunting than intimidate's (demoralize and short term "diplomacy").
Bluff's Epic use: instill a suggestion on a target is just what the Defender is doing (with the suggestion being: attack me, not that other guy)

And lastly, Bluff can be made a class skill, and a bonus can be given for in-battlefield uses. Also making the BSF being able to negotiate some wouldn't be bad. A fella that tries to prevent damage to others wouldn't be remiss in trying to prevent damage from happening at all to begin with.

Composer99
2014-05-09, 11:50 AM
So you're suggesting a PrC designed primarily for fighting classes should avoid using the one and only social skill most of those classes have in favour of honestly wasted cross class ranks in a skill they will otherwise have no good use for. Bluff is a skill which is hard to justify having less than max ranks in if you're going to put any ranks in at all, it just isn't a 'fighter type' skill, whereas Intimidate certainly is. I still don't see how being the most imposing person on the battlefield fails to meet criteria for an ability which makes enemies want to deal with you quickly. A skinny rogue type trying to pull agro will need to bluff it, because they AREN'T an obvious main target otherwise, a hefty bugger with a hammer and a shield need only make themselves obvious to get that agro, so Intimidate makes MORE sense for them. This isn't a skillmonkey or a trickster, it's not a puny mage, it's a big beefy fighter. The big beefy fighter doesn't need to bluff anyone into seeing him as a threat, he just needs to make enough noise to ensure everyone looks at him and sees the obvious threat he already is.

Keep in mind that in a world with magic, and especially the 3.5 game-world, the default position for any intelligent creatures faced with a mixed-composition group of characters including a wizard should be to eliminate the wizard first. Also, why on earth would the rogue be trying to pull aggro? You'd think s/he'd be trying to dump it.

In that light, I don't see that it's unreasonable for the brawny types to have to bluff an opening or other tempting avenue of attack to make opponents target them instead of the wizard, if they can't completely block the opposition from reaching the wizard.

Garonak
2014-05-11, 02:11 AM
Thanks for suggestions.

I see the benefit of using Bluff mechanically, but I feel Intimidate is better, both fluff-wise and as skill for entrance classes (also: see below).

What do you think about the following:
Level 1: Taunt (3 + con/day) - That way more of them at the beginning, while not getting way too many towards the end (eg. dwarf at level 20: Con 36: 16 Taunts/day (20 start, book, item +6, HD))
Level 2: Move Shield Ally here, still not at the beginning, but slightly earlier
Level 3: Move Bulwark of Defense here (switch places with Shield A)
Level 4: Cover (Ex): Apply shield AC to Reflex: half effects. -- should this be made a named bonus of sorts? Circumstance? Competence?
Level 5: As is
Level 6: As is
Level 7: As is
Level 8: Imp Taunt: Taunt works against immunity to fear - though Defender gets -5 on check (
Level 9: As is
Level 10: As is

My biggest worry is power level, I want the class to be fairly balanced - in the area of tier 3.
With that in mind:
- Will good Will and Mettle be too powerful?
- What about Mettle without good Will?
- How about increasing reach? Either give a flat +5ft or double it?
What levels would it be suitable to give these abilities? Levels 6, 7 and 9 have little going on at the moment (no new ability, just improving previous ones).
I have also considered:
- A variation of the Shield and Pike feat (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Shield_and_Pike_Style) (piercing reach weapon with (light) shield (though make it any shield, and not just light)), though I doubt most DMs would allow Shield Bash with this.
- 20-50% Miss Chance with Shield Block

Gildedragon
2014-05-11, 10:24 AM
Tier 3 is defined by having a big bag of tricks (bard, factotum, swordsage, binder) the Trick to them is doing varied things in and out of combat.
What you got here seems solid 4, one good trick, a couple poor ones.
This is furthered by the fact that the entrance classes are generally gonna be T4 or 5 with a similar shtick.

Garonak
2014-05-11, 10:48 AM
Good point.

Also, have updated original post a bit.

Gildedragon
2014-05-11, 11:22 AM
Thinking back over this, 3+Con might be a bit low in the end (con is not going to be the primary stat) give an extra use every three or so levels

The shield other ability is still bad as it doesn't allow the defender to not take the damage they've intercepted.
I refer you again to the good karma feat that does that ability but better (much better as you can intercept spells)

Special featwise: tower shield shield bash? Counts as a 2H weapon.

Ability wise: ability to rest in heavy armor would be good, some enhanced EX or SU heal-botting wouldn't be bad either.
Perpetual status / locate on their wards wouldn't be bad. It'd be the guy that pulls the party together if it splits

Garonak
2014-05-11, 01:38 PM
1. I would think con actually would be primary stat, both for hp and Stunning Shield. But I see your point. Make it 5 + con? 1/2 lvl + con?

2. Shield Ally is taken verbatim from Knight, so I haven't really looked at the damage part that much. I like Good Karma (except the +50% dmg part :P). Maybe change it to:
- Imp Shield Ally makes the attack be redirected to the Defender as per Good Karma (without the extra 50% damage)
OR
- Add the sentence: Any resistances apply (ie. DR and energy resistance etc. (for any effects))

3. Add 'Shield Mastery' at level 1: Proficiency with all shield (drop the "proficient with all armors and shield") and can shield bash with all shields, even Extreme and Tower Shield, damage determined by size: Extreme 1d8, Tower 1d10 or 2d6 (2H) (attack penalty for Tower Shields apply)

4. There are so many ways to be able to sleep in heavier armor that I don't see the point in using a class feature on it.

5. Cast status as an SP 3/day with CL = 10. DC is cha-based. At level 3?


I wonder if Shield Block should be increased? Either add another increment or maybe just double it. As it is, you end up with a +10 shield bonus (heavy +2, shield spec +1, enh +5, shield block +2), which isn't that powerful...

Bonus feat: The Defender can choose between: Combat Reflexes, Greater Heavy Armor Optimization, Great Fortitude, Heavy Armor Optimization, Improved Toughness and any feat that has Shield Proficiency as a prerequisite.

Gildedragon
2014-05-11, 02:08 PM
Imp shield ally: considering this is at level 12 at earliest, the avoid taking damage if your AC is high enough should come in earlier esp since this guy feels high armor-y

Though it makes sense they would take the damage early on the no chance to avoid it makes the ability less appealing. Start off with an AC penalty (5) and remove it with Imp Shield, and allow that shielding to allow a shield bash in retaliation

---

What about the possibility of giving a ranged shield ability: boost a distant ally's AC by adding their shield AC + BAB to the ally's AC by tossing their shield into enemies' attacks' path?

---

As to the sleep in heavy armor: sure, but why make them spend resources on that, just a slight bonus... That or boost their speed in armor (if they can avoid fatigue already)

Garonak
2014-05-13, 11:15 AM
I have made some changes now.

The Shield Ally thingy... I am thinking about perhaps leaving Shield Ally as is, then change Improved Shield Ally to Good Karma, ie forcing attack to target Defender instead of ally. Unsure how this will affect Greater Shield Ally...

Gildedragon
2014-05-13, 01:02 PM
Greater Shield Ally: You get to attack them in response?

Garonak
2014-05-13, 02:06 PM
New changes.
I am not quite satisfied with the language, feels heavy and overcomplicated.

Gildedragon
2014-05-13, 03:00 PM
so I just noticed something:
From what I understand, Improved Shield Ally is a boost on Shield Ally, as such you can only use it once per turn, as it is an immediate action.

A simpler way to word Imp Shield Ally: Starting at 7th level your ability to protect allies improves further, allowing you to interpose yourself between your allies and your foes, secure in the protection of your armor. When using your Shield Ally ability you may opt to redirect the attack to yourself. The attack is then resolved normally, but against your AC instead of your ally's. You must decide whether to use this ability after the attacker determines who to attack, but before any dice have been rolled.

Veklim
2014-05-13, 07:57 PM
Thought on 'Armour Mastery', you could call it 'Second Skin' instead.

It has a little more polish now and it looks good. Capstone feels a little flimsy for the level it hits at, but the class is currently looking solid.

Garonak
2014-05-15, 01:37 AM
New changes.

Shield Savant does perhaps look a bit flimsy. Suggestions to make it more solid? Maybe add the 20% miss chance against designated shield block enemy...?

Garonak
2014-05-31, 04:50 AM
Top tip: If you want time for your hobbies in May, do not become a teacher...

New changes - concealment on Shield Savant.

Any thoughts or comments?

andreichekov
2014-05-31, 03:38 PM
Every time you say "every enemy within his reach"
you are really saying no enemies, because that is such a small radius that I can't see how anything would care, unless you have taunted it, in which case it is attacking you anyway, and your difficult terrain thing is wasted then. Or, you are giving an enemy a -4 penalty to attack people he won't be attacking anyway. How about being so scary looking with all your ranks in intimidate.

Also, why is there a daily limit how how many taunts you can do? The only reason you exist is to taunt people, so the second you run out of uses, you are no longer a member of the party, you are the pack animal.
I would suggest getting rid of the daily uses, or allow you to use it at reduced effectiveness after your daily uses.

Also, whats up with the requirements for stunning shield, if the requirements are that high, the save should be a full HD DC, not half?
Do you or don't you have to meet the prerequisites for the bonus feats?

Three feats for qualifying is a bit much. Why not just have Shield Specialization, and Improved shield bash? That already tells people who enters the class. Shield guys! And then +5 BAB makes that level requirement, and rogues can still get in, but have to wait.

Andion Isurand
2014-05-31, 05:15 PM
What if... instead of having Shield Ally work to protect allies that are adjacent to you... have it work against any attack that occurs within or passes through the area you threaten?

That way your allies don't have to bunch up right next to you and make all of you that much more vulnerable to area attacks... they just need you and the area you threaten, in the path of a given attack to make the interception.

You could make Combat Reflexes a prerequisite for this PrC, and make Shield Ally work by allowing the defender use one of his melee attacks of opportunity for that round, to try and block or deflect the incoming attack.

If you make it a matter of succeeding on an opposed attack roll, I would reduce the penalty he suffers on attacks of opportunity when fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise.

I would also increase the number of attacks of opportunity he can make in one round based on 1/2 his class level.

andreichekov
2014-05-31, 05:30 PM
What if... instead of having Shield Ally work to protect allies that are adjacent to you... have it work against any attack that occurs within or passes through the area you threaten?

That way your allies don't have to bunch up right next to you and make all of you that much more vulnerable to area attacks... they just need you and the area you threaten, in the path of a given attack to make the interception.


But that area is still too small for a higher level ability. If they can just move to a new angle, then they still completely bypass the area of effect. Since the ability doesn't have that much power in it's effects, a range of 5 ft per intimidate rank wouldn't actually be unreasonable, and it would give the class another reason to have intimidate.

Andion Isurand
2014-05-31, 06:31 PM
Well, the the area the defender occupies and threatens, is just what lies within his physical reach and the reach of the equipment he holds. Within that space, I could see him using an attack of opportunity to knock an attack aside.

How would using intimidate cause incoming attacks to be parried, blocked or deflected?

As for responding to enemy actions and movements, the following class feature I made for a similar prestige class grants a character more options to move into the path of an incoming enemy or attack using one of his readied actions, so his class features can take effect.

================================================== ==========

Contingency Plans (Ex): By 5th level, a defiant defender has mastered the task of mentally rehearsing the moves he will make should circumstances change at a moment's notice.

As a standard action, he may ready a standard, move action or swift action.
As a move action, he may ready a move action or swift action.
As a swift action, he may ready a swift action.

The defiant defender may have multiple readied actions available at any one time, but only one of them may be allowed to occur just before a single triggering action. Only after one of the readied actions is taken, and its triggering action is resolved (changing the defiant defender's initiative count as normal) may the other readied action(s) be taken at that time to end the defiant defender's turn for that round, or remain readied to possibly be triggered later during the round.
A readied action occurs just before the action that triggered it, and if the triggering action then provokes an attack of opportunity from the defender, he may make that attack of opportunity normally.

andreichekov
2014-05-31, 07:11 PM
Well, the the area the defender occupies and threatens, is just what lies within his physical reach and the reach of the equipment he holds. Within that space, I could see him using an attack of opportunity to knock an attack aside.

How would using intimidate cause incoming attacks to be parried, blocked or deflected?


The same way that Evasion dodges stuff. And Hide in Plain sight... And all sorts of other things. Ex means extraordinary and breaks physics
If you don't like that, it is because he looks scary, or threatens them or something. Everything within 5ft. per intimidate rank makes him scale with his scariness.

Garonak
2014-06-01, 02:39 AM
But that area is still too small for a higher level ability. If they can just move to a new angle, then they still completely bypass the area of effect. Since the ability doesn't have that much power in it's effects, a range of 5 ft per intimidate rank wouldn't actually be unreasonable, and it would give the class another reason to have intimidate.

Are you suggesting that a Fighter 5/Defender 10 should be able to deflect melee attacks that happen 90ft away (18 ranks)? Though I am not a great fan of applying logic and real-world physics to DnD, that does seem a bit...

Daily uses of Taunt has been discussed in this thread and I personally am happy with the result now. With a con of 20 (which I feel is on the low side for this class) and 10 levels the Defender will be able to use this 10 times per day, affecting up to 10 enemies per use and each use lasting 10 rounds. Also, at that level - how many fights do you have per day? 2? 3? Maybe 4? And how many rounds do they last? In my experience, it is usually only boss fights that last more than 5-6 rounds at level 15. And when they last longer it is usually because some of the PCs are unable to get to the enemy, which this solves.

The Stunning Shield feat is based on Stunning Fist, as the two feats do more or less the exactly same thing the requirement should be more or less exactly the same. This also sets the limit for daily uses and DC, though the Defender gets a bonus on both these.

See your point with the feat requirements - will change.

The whole intimidate deflects attacks just like evasion dodges thing makes little sense to me, could you elaborate?


What if... instead of having Shield Ally work to protect allies that are adjacent to you... have it work against any attack that occurs within or passes through the area you threaten?

That way your allies don't have to bunch up right next to you and make all of you that much more vulnerable to area attacks... they just need you and the area you threaten, in the path of a given attack to make the interception.

You could make Combat Reflexes a prerequisite for this PrC, and make Shield Ally work by allowing the defender use one of his melee attacks of opportunity for that round, to try and block or deflect the incoming attack.

If you make it a matter of succeeding on an opposed attack roll, I would reduce the penalty he suffers on attacks of opportunity when fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise.

I would also increase the number of attacks of opportunity he can make in one round based on 1/2 his class level.

I see the point of adding combat reflexes as a requirement and going the whole aoo route, but as andreichekov said, the requirements are already high. Perhaps give combat reflexes as a set bonus feat at lvl 3 and give half class level extra aoo?



As you can see in previous posts the whole reach thing has been discussed with no clear conclusion (except that it would be a good idea). I kind of want it, but I can't see a logical (yes, yes, I'm contradicting myself) way for the class to get it without limiting choice of weapon (ie. Shield and Pike feat).

Gildedragon
2014-06-01, 03:54 AM
A logical nope this isn't quite logical...
A possible way to give ranged shield ally is to allow shield throwing, you eschew your shield bonus until the start of your turn by throwing your shield as a ranged touch attack (range increment 10 feet?) at your ally

Fluff is you toss the shield so that it comes between the attack and your ally, and it bounces back at you

andreichekov
2014-06-01, 01:25 PM
Are you suggesting that a Fighter 5/Defender 10 should be able to deflect melee attacks that happen 90ft away (18 ranks)? Though I am not a great fan of applying logic and real-world physics to DnD, that does seem a bit...

The Stunning Shield feat is based on Stunning Fist, as the two feats do more or less the exactly same thing the requirement should be more or less exactly the same. This also sets the limit for daily uses and DC, though the Defender gets a bonus on both these.

The whole intimidate deflects attacks just like evasion dodges thing makes little sense to me, could you elaborate?


As you can see in previous posts the whole reach thing has been discussed with no clear conclusion (except that it would be a good idea). I kind of want it, but I can't see a logical (yes, yes, I'm contradicting myself) way for the class to get it without limiting choice of weapon (ie. Shield and Pike feat).

Its not a deflection bonus, it is the enemy getting nervous and messing up from being intimidated.

A Shield is harder than a fist and should make more of an impression on impact.

You dodge things with intimidate by making enemies scared enough to make mistakes. Because that enemy archer is sweating and loses his grip, because the wizard is shaking and flings his fireball wrong... etc.

Lighting speed strikes. If you are giving combat reflexes, this applies this anyway. Your guy attacks so fast that he can move into a square and attack and move back so fast that it just looks like he has extra reach.

Andion Isurand
2014-06-01, 05:35 PM
Yeah, shields with piercing polearm does pose a narrow field of equipment options, but that's gonna happen if the class abilities are based on using a shield, and include additional functions that involve one's threatened area.

I don't know what I can suggest to help broaden the equipment options, without fundamentally altering the focus of the class on using shields.

Garonak
2014-06-02, 12:50 PM
One possible semi-logical solution to the reach issue would perhaps having Shield Ally working at longer reach, something like "The Defender is able to throw his/her shield arm and block attacks that at first appears out of reach" - Gets +5ft reach on Shield Ally.

It could also be possible to just give +5ft and explain it away with as a SU-ability?

Modified Shield and Pike - can use long pole arms in one hand without penalty - might even expand it to other reach weapons (long axe etc)?
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Unrelated, make Shield Block 1/2 level? It just amounts to +1 at level 10 over what is at the present. Argument against: Cover adds shield AC to reflex (and Shield Ward adds it to touch and various resist checks).

Also unrelated: Make Shield Ally uses per round to equal 1/2 level - which requires it to be a non-action?

Andion Isurand
2014-06-02, 05:12 PM
Well, don't yet know what else to say on what you should do about increasing one's threatened area and allowing more equipment options to go with using a shield, that would not fall under being supernatural or seemingly awkward.

By adding more options for readied actions with my previously posted ability, I had hoped the ability to move in response to enemy actions would suffice, allowing your defender to get in the way of attacks that would normally occur outside his or her reach. Sure, the defender can't be everywhere at once, but at least that method doesn't cross into being supernatural.

Well, given you can attack with your shield as just another weapon, I would still vouch for Shield Ally being based on using attacks of opportunity, since you'd basically be trying to hit the incoming attack with your shield (or other weapon). And of course, grant more attacks of opportunity per round based on 1/2 the defender's class level.

Unless I missed something, I would also add a scaling ability that helps reduce the check penalty you suffer when using a shield, as well as the attack roll penalty you suffer when using a Tower Shield.

Veklim
2014-06-02, 06:28 PM
Ok, so here's a thought about moving for shielding and such...present an ability which allows you to move up to twice your base speed in a round outside of your turn, split up as you choose, as long as you have not moved more than 5ft in your turn. Perfectly mundane, perfectly acceptable, allows you to do a full defensive and still move to cover allies through the rest of the round..?

Andion Isurand
2014-06-02, 07:29 PM
You could do that too, although I would reduce it to moving just your base speed in one round, similar to using spring attack, except in this case... (and depending on how you meant it to be understood) you could be making a full attack and moving your speed over the course of a given round, within and outside your turn.

This implies the character should be able to move their speed & make a full attack during their turn, similar to pounce. Not saying that it would be unwelcome to help melee combatants move as they attack more often, its just that it should be handled outside of just one PrC.

What if you could ready an action to move your speed as standard action as normal, but can split that movement up over the course of the round.

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Intercept Style (Ex): At 6th level, whenever a defender uses a standard action to ready a move action for the purpose of movement, he may use that readied action any number of times during the round, until the sum of movement it provides equals what he can get from a single move action, or until an event occurs in which he would normally lose an entire move action. For movement that involves a check of some kind, the check must be made each time this particular readied action is used.
Each time the readied action is used to react to any given triggering action, the defender's initiative changes as normal. A readied action occurs just before the action that triggered it, and if this triggering action then provokes an attack of opportunity from the defender, he may make that attack of opportunity normally.

andreichekov
2014-06-02, 08:32 PM
If you are talking about this guy staying mundane, then he has no place being a prestige class. Mundanes don't cut it past level 10.

Garonak
2014-06-26, 02:18 PM
Bump, bump, bumpity bump - hope I am not overstepping my bounds here - thread creators are allowed to bump "dead" threads, right?

Anyhow: new changes

Though not given reach I do feel the class is starting to come together.

Dienekes
2014-06-28, 02:58 AM
Technically by wording I think Cover means if you have Evasion you can't use it. Which is weird. Just add Shield to Reflex it's not overpowered and makes everything easier.

Some ideas:

Give him full Will. He's a defender, his job should be taking an enemies spells, let him be able to survive it.

Second Skin should come much earlier. Honestly, it wouldn't hurt being on the first or second level.

Status is weird, for a class that has no other magical abilities it just sort of comes from nowhere. Not saying it should be dropped, just that it's weird.

Greater Shield Ally: This should just let the defender have a spell target her, if it's direct damage or not. It's simpler and is actually effective.

Some abilities for the class to be more effective.

Interpose: Once per round, as a reaction to an ally being attacked, you can move up to your speed to any open square adjacent to that ally. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Once adjacent to your ally you may use the Shield Ally class ability as a free action against the attack that triggered this ability.

Iron Heart Surge: Not really, but look at this ability and try to draw some inspiration from it. Being able to say "No" to a spell is a powerful ability and one seen often in fiction. In the course of the game, the defender should be trying to get these spells to target her, this is actually an incredibly stupid strategy unless she has some way to survive a barrage of spells that try to destroy her from the inside or control her mind.

Defender's Wrath: If an enemy makes an attack against an ally within your reach, you may make an attack of opportunity against him.
This ability seems strong, but since the class forces you to take the generally weak damaging sword and board style it's really not that bad, and it gives enemies a reason beyond taunting for them to want to take you down.

Armor Block: While wearing armor, you may expend an attack of opportunity to double your DR against a single attack. DR 5 is pretty weak, this allows the defender to protect himself some as well.