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ArmorArmadillo
2007-02-11, 09:39 PM
After being horribly dissapointed with the Samurai class (Especially the Iaijutsu Master class feature,) I decided to make a PrC class the captures the feel of Kendo style much better.

v1.3
Iainin
Requirements:
Base Attack Bonus +5
Feats: Quick Draw, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Any 1-Handed Slashing)

Hit Die: d10
Skills: 2+Int Per Level
Class Skills: Balance, Craft, Diplomacy, Jump, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Profession, Ride, Tumble
{table=head]Level|Base Attack <br> Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special[br]

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Iaijutsu Style, Unsheathe +2|

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0||

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Hidden Shield|

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Unsheathe +4|

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Wind of Blades|

6th|
+6|
+5|
+2|
+2||

7th|
+7|
+5|
+2|
+2|Unsheathe +6, Razor Lunge|

8th|
+8|
+6|
+2|
+2||

9th|
+9|
+6|
+3|
+3|Sprinting Slice|

10th|
+10|
+7|
+3|
+3|Unsheathe +8, Iaido Wave|[/table]

Iaijutsu Style: As a Standard Action, an Ianin can Specially Sheathe his weapon, holding it in a powerful position, he can hold this position so long as he takes no other action other than moving. Additionally, he can draw his weapon as an immediate action that does not count toward his number of swift actions in a round.

Unsheathe: When an Iainin draws a weapon Specially Sheathed with his Iaijutsu Style ability, he gets a +2 to damage on all attacks made during that round. This bonus increases to +4 at Level 5, to +6 at Level 7, and to +8 at Level 10.

Hidden Shield: Iainin can use their weapons' sheathes to protect themselves against attacks, using his grip on the sheathe to protect himself as well as propel his blade. At 3rd level, while wielding a 1-Handed Slashing weapon in two hands, he gains a Shield Bonus to AC equal to 1/2 his Iainin class level, rounded down.

Wind of Blades: An Iainin of 5th level or higher masters the skills of his weapon style, and can Specially Sheathe his weapon as a move action rather than a standard action.

Razor Lunge: An Iainin can make sudden and devastating movements over seemingly long distances. An Iainin of 7th level or higher holding a Specially Sheathed weapon who makes a 5-Foot Step can instead move up to 10 feet.

Sprinting Slice: An Iainin can move with penetrating force. If an Iainin of 9th level or higher makes a charge attack with a Specially Sheathed weapon, he may resolve his attack as a melee touch attack rather than a standard melee attack.

Iaido Wave: Ianin gain a mastery of Iaijutsu that allows them to strike with superhuman speed across multiple foes. Once per round, an Ianin of 10th level who succeeds at an Unsheathing strke may immediately attack another within melee range using his full-attack bonus.

It's probably overpowered to start out with, but that's how it is.

I'd love comments on how the flavor and such works.

*Okay, table problems have been fixed*

*Changed several abilities for balance: redid system of Mortal Draw, switched Razor Lunge and Sprinting Slice, and scaled Hidden Shield*

*Edited to Clarify; also switched Sheathing action types*

MandibleBones
2007-02-11, 09:41 PM
Your table is a little skewed. I'm reserving judgement until I see it all together :) But I'm a fan of the Iaijitsu Strike manuver myself, so we'll see.

Macrovore
2007-02-12, 01:13 AM
I assume you mean quick draw instead of quick attack. one is a feat essential to iajutsu, and the other is a pokemon maneuver (i can't believe i still know that!!)

Roderick_BR
2007-02-12, 08:46 AM
Doesn't a Iaijutsu Master alreadt exist? I remember reading about him on a magazine once. Basically he can use the Iaijutsu to do one devastating attack in the first round of combat, like a sneak attack, only you don't need to flank nor attack a flatfooted enemy.
That one aways looked weird to me, though. My friend used it, and he killed 75% of the enemies in one strike. I kid you not!

elliott20
2007-02-12, 11:26 AM
There is already a iaijutsu master in the 3.0 OA. And in my opinion it does a pretty decent job as is.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-12, 11:34 AM
Two things:

1. One of my players came up with an Iajutsu Critical feat. Might want to look at that.

2. Razor Lunge and Sprinting Slice should be reversed. After all, a 10-foot step is less powerful than a full-attack-charge.

Damon_Caskey
2007-02-12, 12:24 PM
It’s interesting, though a little short on flavor. First things first, it's spelled "Iaijutsu". Spelling errors happen, but the class name itself should be correct at least.

Also, Iaijutsu Master is not a good choice for a class name, partially because yes, it already exists, and aside from that, any true master, whether of a martial art or English composition is never going to call themselves by such a vernacular. Iaijutsu Disciple would fit much better.

On mechanics, consider scaling Hidden Shield. class level ought to do it. That way you don’t have an ability coming on too strong and then becoming useless in a few levels.

Mortal Draw might scare a few DMs, but the death effect is really not too powerful in itself. It does however need clarification as D&D has no implicit rules on “Study” that I know of (Assassin death attack doesn't qualify, it has its own built in rules and describes them as studying). You don’t need to write a book though. Actually, a simple concentration check before the ability will work should do it.

I'm thinking perhaps your concentration result against their touch AC (basically, your ability to maintain your focus on that one devastating attack against their speed and evasive maneuvers).

Touch ACs tend to suck, so on its own its a fairly easy check to make, but the normal concentration penalties would implicitly factor the enemy, the environment, and a bit of random chance VS. your own skill. A modular, clean, and balanced limiting factor that still allows the feature to be effective.

DC

elliott20
2007-02-12, 12:32 PM
well, I personally don't really like that mortal draw ability. I can understand if he gives the iaijutsu master a massive bonus to hit and damage on the draw if the warrior practices the draw. (That's the entire point of iaido after all, to do as much damage as possible on the first hit)

but instant death is a little stretching it.

however, if you really do want to do something like this, there are two ways you can do it.

1. do it the same way an assassin does it, and make him watch an opponent fight for several rounds. (I think it was three)

2. limit the number of times he can do this death attack in one day. it makes very little sense to me, but that's one way to go about it.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-02-12, 05:05 PM
To start out, thank you for the spelling and syntax errors, I have them fixed.

Second, I don't own Oriental Adventures, so I really wouldn't know anything about that PrC.

Third, I like the Fax's idea of switching Razor Lunge and Sprinting Slice. Also, I'm interested in seeing what Iaijutsu critical does.

Fourth, study seemed cleer enough, but I will clarify. The way I see it, the ability isn't too powerful because it involved giving up a round of action before acting, and by the time you get the ability (Character Level 15 at Least) any really significant monster shouldn't have too hard a time saving against the DC (15 plus Int Mod, which shouldn't be very high for a martial type character).

But, study is a bit awkward, so I think I'll go with the touch AC Concentration check.

Also, looking further at it, I'm changing the Sheathe times from full-round/standard to standard/move, as this is a more significant difference.

Thanks for the feedback.

elliott20
2007-02-12, 05:21 PM
well, it's actually NOT that I think the mortal draw ability is too powerful, it's just that it feels clunky and... welll.. quite frankly not very suitable for your purposes.

I think it would be better if you were to simply give the PrC who satisfy the conditions a huge bonus to hit and damage.

In the OA PrC, they added a skill called Iaijutsu (CHA) and every time you use the iaijutsu attack, you make a skill check to see the bonus damage you gain from it. (it ranges from 1d6 to 9d6 when you're making 50+ on your checks)

The thing is, the way I see it, the iaijutsu strike is still a sword attack, and a physical one at that. So it should be more damage based. Granted, it should be pretty powerful so that it is a very credible threat to those on the receiving end of it. But an instant death strike just feels.... well... wrong. This should be a fairly dependable strike that the enemies fear regularly, not some random all or nothing gambit.

personally, I think if you want to do this, you can either make the user make a skill check of some sort (you can always just give the class concentration as a class skill and allow them to build that) or make it so that the characters need to be in a specific condition to pull this out.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-02-12, 06:02 PM
^agreed, Elliott.
Sprinting Slice: A Iainin of 9th level or higher can move with frightening force. If a Iainin makes a charge attack with a sheathed weapon, he may make a full-attack. As clean and simple as that seems to be, it actually may be overpowered, which frustrates me. During construction of my most recent homebrew excursion, the Vagrant (please refer to sig), I made a technique called Leopard's Pounce that allowed the exact same thing. I then playtested it in a duel against the Engetsu Shinobi (Damon's ingenious class) and realized that the power for destruction is absolutely immense. An initiative-based character using this in the first round of combat will do massive damage on the flat-footed opponent.

Of course, since my duel was level 20 and the vagrant gets +60 base land speed at that level, it might just be my own class' brokenness. Anyone have a precedent for the charge/full attack combo? In any case, I like the flavor for the class, and I do think that might even work better for the role assigned than the Oriental Adventures Iaijutsu Master.

jjpickar
2007-02-12, 06:24 PM
Well I actually like the Mortal Draw. Fighting types get annoyed at the amount of times they have to hack at an enemy before he goes to pieces. They never get a chance to try and decapitate someone because you can't sunder an enemy's neck (hydras are the exception). An instant kill fills that void for those one hit one kill types. Assassins get death attack at 1st level and clerics get an instant kill at level nine with Slay Living. Why does it unbalance the game if another class can use the same type of move earlier?

ArmorArmadillo
2007-02-12, 07:28 PM
Ok, I'm really liking the feedback I'm getting.

I redid Sprinting Slice, I realized the dangerous potential of full-attacking after a charge.

I'm still thinking about Mortal Draw. Complete Warrior has set the precedent for combat types having limited death effects (Reaping Mauler), but I agree that it seems kind of clunky as it is. However, high damage bonuses is just overdoing what the class already does.
Here is another way of handling it, but it seems a little out of place with the flavor of the class so far.

Iaido Wave: Ianin gain a mastery of Iaijutsu that allows them to strike with superhuman speed across multiple foes. Ianin of 10th level who succeed at an Unsheathing strke may immediately attack another within his range at his full-attack bonus.

elliott20
2007-02-12, 09:29 PM
well, I'm not saying that mortal strike is TOO powerful or game breaking. If anything, it's hardly reliable. I mean, with DC save or insta-death moves, the problem is that it's a hit or miss, and if it's a miss, there's no effect what so ever. But being hit by a sword, regardless, should hurt in some way.

That's why I was considering that maybe upping the damage output would be a better concept. that way, if you do enough you can also force a massive damage save.

the alternative you have is not a bad one. giving them an extra attack is essentially giving them extra damage option. If you combine this with your full attack, you can get some pretty insane stuff.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-02-13, 12:32 AM
the alternative you have is not a bad one. giving them an extra attack is essentially giving them extra damage option. If you combine this with your full attack, you can get some pretty insane stuff.
This is a good point, I'm restricting the extra attacks to once per round to prevent serious abuse.

I think this class is more or less done unless anyone has serious issues.

elliott20
2007-02-13, 01:55 AM
just one little modification

hidden shield I think should be based on his class level as a Iainin, not as his class level. this will effectively put a cap on it as +5 AC for a lvl 10 iainin. and if you want, you can always throw in a stat mod with that, like say, half of his iainin class level + int bonus (or whatever mental stat you feel is appropriate)

Damon_Caskey
2007-02-13, 11:15 AM
just one little modification

hidden shield I think should be based on his class level as a Iainin, not as his class level. this will effectively put a cap on it as +5 AC for a lvl 10 iainin. and if you want, you can always throw in a stat mod with that, like say, half of his iainin class level + int bonus (or whatever mental stat you feel is appropriate)

Since I'm the one who suggested the class level scale for Hidden Shield in the first place, I should point out that is exactly what class level means. You are thinking of character level. "X class level" implicitly means the current class granting the feature, not all the character's classes put together.

@ArmorArmadillo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=20671): Your table no longer matches listed class features. Make sure to fix things like that as you update.

DC

elliott20
2007-02-13, 11:17 AM
well, you can never be too explicit. In this particular case, there are PrCs out there that uses character levels instead of just the PrC levels to determine strength of the ability.

While I understood the intention, I felt that a bit of clarification would help.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-02-13, 12:29 PM
Class level always refers to the class granting the feature, Character level refers to all class levels. I agree that one should be as explicit as possible, but in this case it isn't really necessary.

Still, I'll change it to Ianin Class Level to end all confusion. :wink:

Also, fixed the table, thanks for the heads-up.

Darkshade
2007-02-13, 01:22 PM
hmm It seems like an ok class but OA Iaijutsu Master and the Iaijutsu focus skill did a better job, one area where that fell through though that you could try to incorporate would be the Zatoichi effect...
if you watch a lot of Zatoichi movies you'll notice that he doesn't just flat out get the drop on enemies and Iaijutsu them rather he waits for them to run at him to attack him and the cuts them down before they can strike.
some kind of attack of opportunity iaijutsu draw against a charging opponent could be interesting.

elliott20
2007-02-13, 01:31 PM
that's because the mechanics worked out for the iaijutsu skill requires that the opponent is flat footed for the strike to work. So, unless Zatoichi had a way of making them flatfooted without even moving, he's not using his iaijutsu. He's just slashing them.

Though, I agree, iaijutsu strike shouldn't require a flat-footed check. I think the implementation was because they wanted to put a bit of control on the skill and not make it too broken.

My initial reaction was that with a iaijutsu strike, you should be able to do it as long as you have your sword sheathed. but then this could present a problem as iaijutsu skill, once maxed out, can give you an additional 9d6 points of damage per strike. so what if you just tied like, 7 swords to your belt, draw, get the 9d6, drop, and do it again?

Hell, you could do this right now with the iaijutsu rules, provided you can get the jump on the enemy.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-02-13, 05:50 PM
From what I can gather on the Iaijutsu Master class from OA (Which is 3.0 (And which I don't have (And I never intend to get(And can't find a copy of anywhere even if I did)))) that created a new skill (Iaijutsu (CHA)) which is a system I really don't like for multiple reasons.

1. Creating new skills is too much alteration of the base system for too little, and causes a whole bunch of problems (Hey DM I'm using Journeyman from Dungeonscape, is Iaijutsu a class skill?)

2. It's awkward to make the core of a martial class a skill check when they have so few skill picks, especially when it's a skill that's useless outside of this one application.

3. Bonus d6's of damage against flatfooted opponents with a successful skill check makes the class just feel like an awkwardly redone rogue.

4. No rules currently exist for sheathing weapons, with or without quick draw. What is stopping someone from just Iaijutsuing every attack against a flatfooted opponent?

As it stands, I can only say so much because I've never seen OA, but I feel like I wouldn't like the system if I did.

Malek
2007-02-13, 06:11 PM
Nifty class, but I've got two questions:

Iaijutsu Style - you sheathe the weapon as a full round action... but how long does it stay "sheathed" for purposes of Unsheate ability? Does it require some special stance or something, or can I just sheathe it at the morning, and than whip it out on unsuspecting opponent 4 hours later? Such things need carefull description.

Hidden Shield - at first it says about using "weapon and sheath as one" but later it talks about holding a weapon with both hands - so which one is it?

[edit] Also the class has 3 "dead" levels - not a biggie, but many people dislike those... perhaps some things can be moved around, or giving him a small bonus at those levels (I was thinking about something like +1 Initiative on those levels - it works nice with Iaido Fluff, but not sure how it would change the class balance)

Raum
2007-02-13, 06:45 PM
4. No rules currently exist for sheathing weapons, with or without quick draw. What is stopping someone from just Iaijutsuing every attack against a flatfooted opponent?
Sheathing a weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#draworSheatheaWeapon) is a move action which provokes an attack of opportunity.

Which brings up a question IRT Iajutsu Style:
Iaijutsu Style: As a Full-Round Action, an Ianin can Sheathe his weapon, holding it in a powerful stance. Additionally, he can draw his weapon as an immediate action that does not count toward his number of swift actions in a round....or maybe several questions. First, an immediate action that does not count as a swift action is a free action. And since the drawing portion of the ability duplicates Quick Draw, why not simply require or grant the feat? Second, what is the purpose of changing sheath to a full round? Is it avoiding the AoO? Finally, did you intend anything other than flavor with the "holding it in a powerful stance" phrase? If it's meant for flavor it may help to add some description.

Raum
2007-02-13, 07:11 PM
Feats: Quick Draw, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Any 1-Handed Slashing)Doh! Quick Draw is a requirement. Probably no need for the draw portion of Iajutsu Style.


Iaijutsu Style: Addressed in previous post.


Unsheathe: When an Iainin draws a weapon Sheathed with his Iaijutsu Style ability, he gets a +2 to damage on all attacks made during that round. This bonus increases to +4 at Level 5, to +6 at Level 7, and to +8 at Level 10.I recommend making this ability useful once per encounter. It avoids the cheesy draw, attack, drop, draw...with multiple swords. I'd also consider adding the damage bonus to critical confirmation rolls in case of a critical during that round.


Hidden Shield: Iainin wield blade and sheath as one, and can use it to protect himself against attacks while wielding his blade. At 3rd level, while wielding a 1-Handed Slashing weapon in both hands, he gains a Shield Bonus to AC equal to 1/2 his Iainin class level, rounded down..I like this ability. Might consider cleaning up the flavor text though...it could be interpreted to mean wielding the sword while sheathed instead of using the sheathe as a parrying device in the off hand. And it does make a difference...can a TWF fighter gain this bonus? What about using the weapon in two hands?


Wind of Blades: An Iainin of 5th level or higher masters the skills of his weapon style, and can Sheathe his weapon as a standard action rather than a full-round action.Along with the initial Iajutsu Style, I'm not sure what the intent is...sheathing is normally a move action which provokes an AoO.


Razor Lunge: An Iainin can make sudden and devastating movements over seemingly long distances. An Iainin of 7th level or higher holding a Sheathed weapon who makes a 5-Foot Step can instead move up to 10 feet.Probably best to simply grant 10' moves instead of 5'. I'll always have a sheathed dagger after all. Also need to clarify whether this avoids AoOs or not.


Sprinting Slice: An Iainin can move with penetrating force. If an Iainin of 9th level or higher makes a charge attack with a Sheathed weapon, he may resolve his attack as a melee touch attack rather than a standard melee attack.Does this mean the iainin is striking with the sheathed weapon? I'm also a bit leery of potential cheesy synergies with other charge based abilities. Even simply combining this with Power Attack is very powerful.


Iaido Wave: Ianin gain a mastery of Iaijutsu that allows them to strike with superhuman speed across multiple foes. Once per round, an Ianin of 10th level who succeeds at an Unsheathing strke may immediately attack another within melee range using his full-attack bonus.Err, initially I liked this ability...in fact I still like the functional effect of gaining an extra attack, it's a good capstone. But the flavor / requirement of drawing a weapon every round is, well, silly. It also brings up questions regarding when you threaten nearby spaces and when you don't (assuming no Improved Unarmed Combat feat).

Over all, I like several of the abilities. I think some could use a bit of tweaking and it probably wouldn't hurt to add a few other abilities.

elliott20
2007-02-13, 07:19 PM
From what I can gather on the Iaijutsu Master class from OA (Which is 3.0 (And which I don't have (And I never intend to get(And can't find a copy of anywhere even if I did)))) that created a new skill (Iaijutsu (CHA)) which is a system I really don't like for multiple reasons.

1. Creating new skills is too much alteration of the base system for too little, and causes a whole bunch of problems (Hey DM I'm using Journeyman from Dungeonscape, is Iaijutsu a class skill?)

2. It's awkward to make the core of a martial class a skill check when they have so few skill picks, especially when it's a skill that's useless outside of this one application.

3. Bonus d6's of damage against flatfooted opponents with a successful skill check makes the class just feel like an awkwardly redone rogue.

4. No rules currently exist for sheathing weapons, with or without quick draw. What is stopping someone from just Iaijutsuing every attack against a flatfooted opponent?

As it stands, I can only say so much because I've never seen OA, but I feel like I wouldn't like the system if I did.
yeah I didn't quite like it either myself. but there are several points

1. sheathing is a standard action, I believe

2. yeah, it's actually a class skill given to samurai and fighters. since samurai also have 4 skill points per level instead, it works out for them.

3. I personally felt that they were actually trying to capture some part of the whole "zen" feel of iaido through the skill check. Personally I don't think it's the best way to do it, but then they also were trying to balance it out in the same stroke, which didn't do well for me either.

now the way I see it, iaijutsu's strength over normal sword fighting comes in the fact that it's a focused strike. the idea is that you kill in one blow. So in some form, I do think it's okay to get some extra damage out of it. Not necessarily through say, extra d6s. that's a little clunky.But maybe a single bonus would do it. (That or just give that one strike double damage or something...) the conditions to set it off, well, I guess you could always just replace it with a concentration check or something, but then that makes kind of flakey. also, the strike would not grow as a result of it, which is not what they were trying to go for.

luckily, there is already an example of how they show a strike, through continuous perfection, improves. I speak of course, of the monk unarmed strike. As the monk become higher and higher level, their strike does more damage through dice.

maybe that's an alternative to iaijutsu strike. you can make it a feat chain that progresses the iaijutsu strike from say, 1d10 to 1d12, and then 2d8. (or whatever progression you guys think is apprpropriate) the base condition though, would have to be something like, weapon must be sheathed, and maybe one other condition. maybe just a flat concentration check or something. that I'll have to think about.

edit: also, you could always set it so that one of the abilities you gain from this class is that you're threatening even when your blade is sheathed. This, however, makes it potentially far more dangerous since now you can get the strike on an AOO too. (Though, that actually kind of makes sense to me)

Raum
2007-02-13, 08:07 PM
1. sheathing is a standard action, I believe
Nope. It's a move action. It also provokes an AoO.

elliott20
2007-02-13, 09:15 PM
doh! well, in either case, that will prevent someone from basically doing the whole "cut, sheath, cut" thing.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-02-14, 01:24 AM
Okay, I just realized that sheathing is the same action as drawing. What I was going for was a different effect, but I see it could be confusing.

Unsheathe and similar bonuses only apply to a weapon Sheathed with the Iaijutsu Strike ability (Which is different from normal Sheathing, and therefore not accelerated by Quick Draw, which makes Sheathing a free action.)

I'm editing the class so it is more clear that it is a different type of action.

Also, I'm considering a sheathed weapon is a special grip on the blade, and it isn't something you just walk around with, but I can't really assign a duration to it as that is a bit awkward for martial techniques.

Also, I forgot to update the times for sheathing, it should be Standard/Move not Full-Round/Standard.

Also, if anyone has a better term than Specially Sheathed, please tell me. It's kind of clunky.

Also, the way the class is (supposed to be) written to work, you can't use this with multiple blades by drawing and dropping. I'm drawing from Iaido style Kendo, wherein you hold the blade in a special stance so as to draw it with great force, so having a Iaijutsu stance is not the same thing as not having drawn a weapon yet.

elliott20
2007-02-14, 01:29 AM
actually, quick draw doesn't make sheathing a free action. It makes drawing and ONLY drawing a free action.

enderrocksonall
2007-02-14, 03:27 AM
What you are talking about is a Battojutsu stance. The art of drawing the blade in such a manner that no second strike should be needed. I would go with the consensus that it would require a concentration or iajutsu skill check would be necessary to pull it off. You should prolly use the rules presented in the iajutsu skill in OA, page 58. It maxes out at +9d6 damage for a 50+ check. You could add another level saying that over 60 forces a save or damage situation. Say DC 10+class level+iajutsu focus skill.


Edit: I meant a death effect on a failed save and the +9d6 on a succesful save.

Malek
2007-02-14, 07:11 AM
The point is that he made the clas because he dislikes the OA-style skill Iaijutsu.

elliott20
2007-02-14, 01:42 PM
Yeah, in essence, while I too like the idea of require some form of concentration some of kind focusing moment, giving a skill check and then tying the power of the strike right to the check, against an opponent who is flat footed, IS very much a rogue thing.

The problem is, the iaijutsu strike, as a result of the game mechanics, and has potential for cheese gallore if you dont' put enough conditions on top.

If Tome of Battle is available to you, I'd say you try going with that instead and see what kind of system you come with through that.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-02-14, 04:01 PM
Don't use ToB, and never will. I consider it overpowered.

My understanding of Quick Draw is that it makes both drawing and sheathing a free action, as they are listed together as part of drawing. Otherwise, I fail to see the point of the feat as drawing fast is really unimpressive if you have to stop and sheathe every weapon (yes you can just drop it, but that is just really awkward flavorwise and forces rules-knowing players to constantly drop weapons at an insignificant, usually meaningless game penalty.) Also, it is largely irrelevant as this class uses Special Sheating, which is seperate from the draw/sheathe action in the SRD.

Also, I plan on no skill checks being part of the class in any serious way, as it is a martial class with very few skill points and making a skill check the core of its operation is frankly a really awkward design.

Furthermore, just making players role a lot of Concentration checks isn't cool, or flavorful, or conducive tactically and strategically interesting encounters, it is just saying "Max out this skill and roll checks a lot for uber-damage." That is what makes an abusive class.

The limitations placed on Unsheathe in the class prevent most cheese: It requires a standard or move action to Specially Sheathe, so you can't full attack unless you only attack every other turn. You can't dual wield. It doesn't let you Unsheathe, drop, Unsheathe, drop with multiple swords. It limits the selection of weapons you can use.

Also, you can only go so far to prevent cheese. Munchkins will find and abuse classes, but good players will see this class for what it is, a chance to use a cool fighting style in game terms when you otherwise couldn't.

Raum
2007-02-14, 08:33 PM
My understanding of Quick Draw is that it makes both drawing and sheathing a free action, as they are listed together as part of drawing.Nope, Quick Draw only allows you to draw a weapon faster. It doesn't modify sheathing time at all. Here is the text for reference:
Quick Draw [General]
Prerequisite

Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit

You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.

A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Normal

Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
Special

A fighter may select Quick Draw as one of his fighter bonus feats. Notice it specifically mentions draw and never mentions sheathing a weapon.


Otherwise, I fail to see the point of the feat as drawing fast is really unimpressive if you have to stop and sheathe every weapon (yes you can just drop it, but that is just really awkward flavorwise and forces rules-knowing players to constantly drop weapons at an insignificant, usually meaningless game penalty.)Well, it's unimpressive until you need a weapon quickly and still want to make a full attack...then it's pretty nice. :) As for dropping vs sheathing, there's a pretty significant difference. Sheathing a weapon as a move action provoking an AoO maintains some verisimilitude. Dropping a weapon instead can be disadvantageous depending on terrain, whether you need the weapon again, and whether or not you may need to run.


Also, it is largely irrelevant as this class uses Special Sheating, which is seperate from the draw/sheathe action in the SRD.Have you considered making it a stance instead of "Special Sheathing"?


Also, I plan on no skill checks being part of the class in any serious way, as it is a martial class with very few skill points and making a skill check the core of its operation is frankly a really awkward design.

Furthermore, just making players role a lot of Concentration checks isn't cool, or flavorful, or conducive tactically and strategically interesting encounters, it is just saying "Max out this skill and roll checks a lot for uber-damage." That is what makes an abusive class.I agree with you on skill checks...all requiring a skill does is remove one skill point from the class. I'd recommend using either a stance mechanic or a focus mechanic. For comparison, there are other stances in the ToB and Focus is used in the psionic material and in the Combat Form feats in PHB2.


The limitations placed on Unsheathe in the class prevent most cheese: It requires a standard or move action to Specially Sheathe, so you can't full attack unless you only attack every other turn. You can't dual wield. It doesn't let you Unsheathe, drop, Unsheathe, drop with multiple swords. It limits the selection of weapons you can use.I don't think what you've written up is overpowered at all and the only potentially abusable ability I've noticed is the Sprinting Slice ability. I'm leery of potential synergies with other abilities such as Lion's Charge, Power Lunge, Battle Jump, Spirited Charge...etc. I'd really rather see it do extra damage (maybe an automatic critical threat?), making it a touch attack is easily abusable.


Also, you can only go so far to prevent cheese. Munchkins will find and abuse classes, but good players will see this class for what it is, a chance to use a cool fighting style in game terms when you otherwise couldn't.True, but if you see potential issues it's best to fix them up front. No need to leave easily fixable things in place.

Overall the class has a lot of potential. My biggest objection is really to the flavor...sheathing and redrawing a weapon during a fight is a tad silly. It kills verisimilitude for me.

elliott20
2007-02-14, 10:08 PM
how about a focus mechanic, where in order to do this, you have focus as a move equivalent action. However, once you've maintained focus, you can hold that focus until you've unleashed the attack. However, if you perform certain actions (say, attack, draw your weapon, cast a spell, etc), or say, get hit while the focus is held, you lose your focus and the iaijutsu strike doesn't work.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-02-14, 11:23 PM
I always thought the main point of quick draw was for classes like ranger or rogue that had to switch back and forth between different weapons (ranged and melee) frequently, in which case what's the point if you have to drop each weapon after you draw it or take a move action...whatever, I'll house rule it if I ever DM.

I'm not making it a Stance, or a Combat Form, or any ridiculous variant rule for combat classes. The way I see it, it works perfectly fine as a Elliott states it (a "Focus") and I'm relatively sure that's how it works as written.

I agree that Sprinting Slice is a very powerful ability that interacts powerfully with certain abilities, but I think that is something that I can live with. It's a level 9 prestige class ability, it has a little license to be powerful. If a player maximizes his build to do a lot of damage on charge attacks by level 14, I hardly think it unbalances the game.

Raum
2007-02-14, 11:54 PM
I'm not making it a Stance, or a Combat Form, or any ridiculous variant rule for combat classes. The way I see it, it works perfectly fine as a Elliott states it (a "Focus") and I'm relatively sure that's how it works as written.Hehe, I do love irony. :)


I agree that Sprinting Slice is a very powerful ability that interacts powerfully with certain abilities, but I think that is something that I can live with. It's a level 9 prestige class ability, it has a little license to be powerful. If a player maximizes his build to do a lot of damage on charge attacks by level 14, I hardly think it unbalances the game.That's cool. As I said earlier, I don't think the ability itself is overpowered, it merely has potential for synergies.

I would recommend adding a few less offensive combat abilities to some of the dead levels. Given the flavor, Uncanny Dodge and possibly Improved Uncanny Dodge might be appropriate. Possibly an additional initiative bonus or even some non-combat related abilities.