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Szatany
2007-02-12, 01:59 PM
Tell me what do you think of this class? Is it cool? is it balanced? Yes/no/go away :) ?

(Spell-less) Ranger
http://www.wocillo.com/images/firewater.jpg
Picture by William O'Connor

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Rangers have the following game statistics.

Abilities: Same as in Playerís Handbook.

Alignment: Any.

Hit Points per Level: 1d8 + Con modifier.
Hit points are maximized at 1st character level.

Skill Points per Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Skill points are multiplied by 4 at 1st character level.

Class Skills: The rangerís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).


Base Fort Ref Will
Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special .
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Animal companion, hunting grounds
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Wilderness Lore (1st step), track
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Outdoorsman
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 -
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Wilderness Lore (2nd step)
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Outdoorsman
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Hunting grounds
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Wilderness Lore (3rd step)
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Outdoorsman
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 -
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Wilderness Lore (4th step)
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Outdoorsman
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Hunting grounds
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 Wilderness Lore (5th step)
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 Outdoorsman
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 -
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Wilderness Lore (6th step)
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Outdoorsman
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Hunting grounds
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 Wilderness Lore (7th step)
CLASS FEATURES
All of the following are class features of the ranger.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light armor and with shields (but not tower shield).

Animal Companion (Ex): A ranger is accompanied by an animal friend. He may begin play with an animal companion selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the following creatures are also available: crocodile, porpoise, Medium shark, and squid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the ranger on his adventures.
A ranger's companion is typical for its kind except the fact that it has 1 extra Hit Die for every 2 ranger levels. This bonus cannot make companion have more hit dice that it normally could (according to Monster Manual). In addition, the companion has a +1 bonus on Stregth, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom for every 2 ranger levels as if it was born with exceptionally high ability scores.
If a ranger releases his companion from service, he may gain a new one by spending 1d10 minutes with a potential animal and making a successful Handle Animal check (DC 15 + animal's HD). You can 20 with this check. It takes just under 2 hours.
A ranger of 6th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals: ape, black bear, bison, boar, cheetah, crocodile, dire badger, dire bat, dire weasel, leopard, monitor lizard, large shark, constrictor snake, viper snake, large viper, or wolverine.
A ranger of 11th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals: brown bear, dire wolverine, giant crocodile, deinonychus, dire ape, dire boar, dire wolf, elasmosaurus, lion, rhinoceros, huge viper snake, or tiger.
A ranger of 16th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals: polar bear, dire lion, megaraptor, huge shark, giant constrictor snake, or orca whale.

Hunting Grounds (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of enemy or land. Chosen subjects are referred to as favored enemies and favored terrains. In case of favored enemy, the ranger gains a +1 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, and appropriate Knowledge checks when using these skills against creatures of this type, and he gets a +1 bonus on damage rolls against such creatures. In case of favored terrain, the ranger gains a +1 circumstance bonus to Climb, Hide, Knowledge (Dungeoneering and Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, and Survival checks made within his favored kind of terrain. This bonus increases by 1 everytime the ranger picks up another hunting grounds.
At 7th level and every six levels thereafter (13th and 19th), the ranger may select an additional enemy or terrain from those given on the table. Ranger can choose enemies and terrains interchangeably. Bonuses from enemies and terrains stack, if ranger encounters a favored enemy on a favored terrain. For example, if a 20th level ranger who hunts giants in mountains attempts to spot one there, he gains a +8 bonus to do so.
Available terrains are: arctic, deserts, forests, hills, mountains, plains, seas, swamps, underground, and urban.

Track (Ex): A 2nd level ranger gains this feat for free.

Wilderness Lore: Every ranger has a way of getting by in life, and various styles are reflected with the paths he can take. A 2nd level ranger chooses one of the following paths: archer, beastmaster, scout, and tempest. Extraordinary abilities granted by wilderness lore can be used only as long as the ranger is not wearing medium or heavy armor or carrying medium or heavy load.

1. Archer: Archers hail from those rangers who prefer killing enemies from the distance. As they progress in levels, they become unquestioned masters of the bow.
Rapid Shot (Ex): At 2nd level, a ranger gains this feat for free even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites.
Peek Out (Ex): At 5th level, a ranger can hide effectively behind stones and brushes. He gains +2 dodge bonus to AC and +2 bonus on reflex saves when having cover.
Eagle Eye (Ex): A 5th level ranger can ignore up to 4 points of size bonus to AC when making a ranged attack with a bow.
Manyshot (Ex): At 8th level, a ranger gains this feat for free even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites.
Improved Precise Shot (Ex): At 11th level, a ranger gains this feat for free even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites.
Bowyer (Ex): A 14th level archer gains a +4 bonus on all Craft: Bowyer checks and can create magic bows and arrows as if he had Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat. He can substitute required spells with scrolls containing those spells (scrolls are consumed during item's creation), he can substitute caster level with his ranks in Craft: Bowyer skill -3.
Swarm of Arrows (Ex): As a full-round action, a 17th level ranger may fire an arrow at your his full attack bonus at opponents within a 60 feet long cone. He can target up to one opponent for every point of Dexterity bonus with this ability.
Ricochet (Ex): At 20th level, a ranger can shoot enemies he has no line of effect to, if the line of effect could be made with up to 4 connected straight lines and the target is within 1st range increment.2. Beastmaster: Beastmasters dedicate themselves to their animal companions, forging powerful bonds of friendship and teamwork.
Linked by Fate (Ex): A 2nd level ranger's animal companion gains Damage Reduction 1/-, energy resistance 1 (all), and +1 bonus on saving throws. Those bonuses increase by 1 for every 3 ranger levels, up to 7 at 20th level. Should a beastmaster change his companion, all those benefits kick in after 24 hours.
Wild Empathy (Ex): A 2nd level ranger can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The ranger rolls 1d20 and adds his Handle Animal bonus or the ranger level + Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result.
The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
To use wild empathy, the ranger and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
A ranger can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 4 or less, but he takes a penalty equal to the creature's Int score on the check.
Share Hunting Grounds (Ex): At 5th level, a ranger extends benefits of his hunting grounds ability upon his animal companion.
Team Flanking (Ex): At 8th level, whenever a ranger and his companion flank a creature, their bonus on attack rolls increases by +4 (instead of usual +2) and they gain a +2 bonus on damage rolls as well.
Beast Whisperer (Ex): A 11th level, a ranger can teach his animal companion any number of tricks. He can teach it tricks the companion couldn't normally learn, at a -5 penalty. In addition, teaching time is greatly reduced: every week becomes an hour.
Finally, the beastmaster can speak with his companion as if he was under the effects of speak with animals.
Feral Mindmeld (Su): At 14th level, ranger's and his companion's minds work as one. As long as both are within 100 ft. from each other, whenever the beastmaster or the companion makes Listen or Spot check, or rolls initiative, they both do and better result is used.
Master's Shadow (Ex): At 17th level, ranger's animal companion gains all his extraordinary and supernatural racial abilities. Spell-like abilities and speed modes are not granted. For example, a human ranger's animal companion gains a bonus feat and 1 extra skill point per Hit Die. Should a beastmaster change his companion, all those benefits kick in after 24 hours.
Ultimate Bond (Su): At 20th level, as long as ranger and his companion are within 100 ft., whenever one of them takes any Hit Point damage, ability damage, or is successfully affected by a spell, the other one can take any number of damage on himself, or suffer the spell instead of the original target. For example, if a maze is cast on ranger's lion and it fails to save against it, the ranger can opt to be trapped instead and the lion is unaffected. This ability cannot be used against spells if the new target would be invalid or immune to the spell.3. Manhunter: Manhunters are rangers who specialize at hunting others for variety of reasons, from profit to justice.
Ambush Attack (Ex): If a 2nd level ranger can catch an opponent unprepared, he can make a deadly blow. Any time the rangerís opponent is unaware of the manhunter, ranger that makes a successful attack against that opponent deals +1d10 points of precision damage. In addition, if the damage would be lethal, it can be nonlethal instead.
The ranger may use ambush attack with ranged weapons from a distance equal to total Spot bonus * 5ft. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to precision damage.
The bonus damage increases to +2d10 at 8th level, to +3d10 at 14th level, and to +4d10 at 20th level. If a ranger deals damage to enemy who is aware of him but denied his Dex bonus to AC, bonus damage decreases: each d10 becomes d6.
Urban Prowler (Ex): A ranger spends a lot of his time in cities hunting his prey. Gather Information, Knowledge (local), and Sense Motive become his class skills. He has a number of ranks in each of those skills equal to skill points spent on them.
Swift Tracker (Ex): At 5th level, a ranger can move at his normal speed while following tracks without taking the normal -5 penalty. He takes only a -10 penalty (instead of the normal -20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.
Dead or Alive (Ex): At 8th level, a ranger doesn't suffer a -4 penalty on attack rolls when dealing nonlethal damage and when he deals nonlethal damage, the weapon-roll part of damage is maximized.
Mutilate (Ex): At 11th level, whenever a manhunter deals precision damage, he also reduces all of the victim's speed forms by half (round the remaining speed up) for 10 minutes. Multiple applications of this ability don't stack on the same target.
Astonishing Tracking (Su): A 14th level ranger is able to track a target even if the target is under the influence of abilities or spells that prevent tracking or detection (like Trackless Step) but with a -5 penalty on the Survival check. Manhunter is also able to track a target that is flying or swimming, but at a -10 on the Survival skill check.
Inconvenient Delivery (Ex): At 17th level, the DC to escape bonds (be it manacles, rope, or something else entirely) the manhunter puts on increases by +20.
Cripple (Ex): At 20th level, whenever a manhunter deals nonlethal precision damage, he also deals 2d4 points of Strength and Dexterity damage.4. Scout: Scouts are rangers who specialize in moving through rural terrain undetected and gathering intel.
Rover (Ex): A 2nd level ranger's speed increases by 5 ft. It further increases by 5 ft. at 8th, 14th, and and 20th level.
Trackless Step (Ex): At 2nd level, a ranger leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. He may choose to leave a trail if so desired.
Running Strike (Ex): When a 5th level ranger takes double move action, he can make a single attack at any point of that move.
Woodland Stride (Ex): A 8th level ranger may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect him.
Camouflage (Ex): At 11th level, a ranger can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesnít grant cover or concealment.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While a 14th level ranger is in any sort of natural terrain, he can use the Hide skill even while being observed.
Wild Sight (Ex): A 17th level ranger can ignore nonmagical concealment other than total (such as mist, smoke, foliage, etc).
Running Assault (Ex): At 17th level, when a ranger takes double move action, he can make 2 attacks at any point of that move. Second attack is made at a -5 penalty.
Duck and Cover (Ex): A 20th level ranger who is not immobilized or unconscious is treated as prone at all times if that is beneficial to him.5. Tempest: Tempests are rangers who excel at combat with two weapons, surpassing even most fighters with their uncanny skill at blades.
Two-Weapon Fighting: At 2nd level, a ranger gains this feat for free even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites.
Double Threat (Ex): At 5th level, whenever a ranger is wielding 2 weapons, he gains +2 bonus on disarm, sunder, and trip attempts.
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): At 8th level, a ranger gains this feat for free, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites.
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): At 11th level, a ranger gains this feat for free, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites.
Double Opportunity (Ex): At 14th level, whenever a ranger is allowed to make an attack of opportunity while wielding 2 weapons, he can make 2 such attacks (one with each weapon). The extra attack of opportunity does not count against total number of attacks a ranger can make in a round.
Protect Side (Ex): At 17th level, when a ranger fights defensively or uses Combat Expertise, up to 4 points of penalty on attack rolls applies only to one weapon he wields.
Death from Everywhere (Ex): At 20th level, a ranger wielding 2 weapons can flank opponents by himself. This ability is only effective against opponents who can be flanked and are no bigger than the ranger.
Perfect Grip (Ex): A 20th level ranger suffers no penalties for wielding 2 weapons, even if both weapons are one-handed. Tempest uses his full Str bonus with off-hand attacks.Outdoorsman: A 3rd level ranger learns a special ability. He gains another ability at 6th level and every 3 levels thereafter.
Totem Abilities: A number of special abilities are totem abilities. A ranger can have only one totem ability, but he can take his totem more than once, each time increasing its potency. Each totem describes in detail what happens when it is taken multiple times.
Bonus Feat: A ranger gains feat from the list below.
Player's Handbook: Alertness, Animal Affinity, Endurance, Run, Self-Sufficient, Stealthy, Toughness.
Cat Totem (Ex): A ranger gains 2 ranks in Move Silently skill (if he doesn't already have maximum ranks for this level) and Damage Reduction 10 against falling damage. Every time the ranger takes cat totem again, he gains extra 2 ranks and his DR increases by 10. This is a totem ability.
Dodge Enemy (Ex): A ranger knows how to avoid his enemiesí blows. His bonus against favored enemies applies also to his Armor Class (as a dodge bonus).
Familiar Territory (Ex): A ranger knows every trick the terrain has to offer. His bonus in favored terrain applies also to initiative rolls and Relfex saves against area effects.
Hawk totem (Ex): A ranger can take an additional standard action during his turn. He can use this ability once per day. Every time the ranger takes hawk totem again, he gains one more daily use. This is a totem ability.
Home Ground (Ex): A ranger draws inner strength when in familiar area. His bonus in favored terrain applies also to Will saves.
Otter Totem (Ex): A ranger gains 2 ranks in Swim skill (if he doesn't already have maximum ranks for this level) and can hold his breath as if his Constitution was 4 points higher. Every time the ranger takes otter totem again, he gains extra 2 ranks and can breath even longer. This is a totem ability.
Outmaneuver Enemy (Ex): A Ranger knows how to move in such way that his enemies are cornered and flanked easily. His favored enemy bonus applies also to attack rolls against flanked enemies.
Owl Totem (Ex): A ranger gains 1 rank in Spot skill and 2 ranks in Listen skill (if he doesn't already have maximum ranks for this level). Every time the ranger takes owl totem again, he gains extra rank in Spot and a 2 extra ranks in Listen. This is a totem ability.
Resist Enemy (Ex): A rangerís favored enemy bonus applies also to his saving throws against extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities used by his favored enemies.
Viper Totem (Ex): A ranger gains +2 bonus on saves against poison and gains 1 rank in Escape Artist and Climb skills (if he doesn't already have maximum ranks for this level). Every time the ranger takes viper totem again, he gains extra 2 ranks and a +2 bonus on saves against poison. This is a totem ability.
Wolf Totem (Ex): A ranger gains scent with range of 10 ft. and a +2 bonus on Wisdom checks to track with scent. Every time the ranger takes wolf totem again, his bonus on checks increases by +2 and the range of his scent ability increases by 10 ft. This is a totem ability.
Wound Enemy (Ex): A ranger knows how to wound his favored enemies that are normally resistant to mundane weapons. He bypasses (ignores) up to 3 points of Damage Reduction of his favored enemies for every point of Hunting Grounds bonus.EPIC RANGER
Whether cunning protector of the wild or cold-blooded hunter of the weak, the epic ranger is one with the wilderness, moving with deadly grace and keen mind through natural world.

Ranger
Level Special .
21st Outdoorsman
22nd -
23rd Bonus feat
24th Outdoorsman
25th Hunting grounds
26th Bonus feat
27th Outdoorsman
28th -
29th Bonus feat
30th Outdoorsman
Outdoorsman: An epic ranger gains extra special ability at 21st level and every 3 levels thereafter (24th, 27th, 30th, and so on).

Bonus Feat: An epic ranger gains bonus feat at 23rd level and every 3 levels thereafter (26th, 29th, 32nd, and so on). Whenever he gains a bonus feat from this ability, he may either take an epic feat, or two non-epic feats. The list of available epic feats is same as in Epic Level Handbook.

Hunting Grounds: An epic ranger gains additional favored enemy or terrain at 25th level and every 6 levels thereafter (31st, 37th, 43rd, and so on).

Holocron Coder
2007-02-12, 02:10 PM
Hmmm... I like this. I can't say much for balance, as I've very little sense of it myself. I've seen similar class builds on another site... Can't remember which though.

I like the idea of multiple, detailed tracks a ranger can take. Makes sense, in its own way.

Tormsskull
2007-02-12, 02:13 PM
I love the idea of a beach ranger. I'd make one and name him David Hasselhoff.

Szatany
2007-02-12, 02:16 PM
I love the idea of a beach ranger. I'd make one and name him David Hasselhoff.
I think this is a brilliant idea! Hasselhoff to the rescue!

Macrovore
2007-02-12, 02:18 PM
you should give them track as a bonus feat at 1st lvl. it's the most basic ranger ability, and a few of their other abilities rely on it.

Tormsskull
2007-02-12, 02:32 PM
you should give them track as a bonus feat at 1st lvl. it's the most basic ranger ability, and a few of their other abilities rely on it.

That's an awesome idea. Look here:



Track (Ex): A 1st level ranger gains this feat for free.

Quellian-dyrae
2007-02-12, 03:12 PM
Looks great, the one ability that struck me as unbalanced was protect side. I had tried to devise a feat like that once, and I found that it only really works for fighting defensively. If you allow it to also function with Combat Expertise (and, more to the point, Improved Combat Expertise), you can basically raise your AC so the foe needs a 20 to hit you, and even though your off-hand weapon becomes virtually useless, your primary weapon is still easily able to score hit after hit while your foe can't strike back.

Other than that though, awesome class.

Szatany
2007-02-12, 03:15 PM
Looks great, the one ability that struck me as unbalanced was protect side. I had tried to devise a feat like that once, and I found that it only really works for fighting defensively. If you allow it to also function with Combat Expertise (and, more to the point, Improved Combat Expertise), you can basically raise your AC so the foe needs a 20 to hit you, and even though your off-hand weapon becomes virtually useless, your primary weapon is still easily able to score hit after hit while your foe can't strike back.

Other than that though, awesome class.
See, that's the trick, protect side as written doesn't work with Improved Combat Expertise ;)

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-12, 03:22 PM
I like the flavor, especially the idea of multiple avenues of progression. A few things did spring up which concern me, though:

○ Swarm of Arrows strikes me as a little powerful. You may want to cap this off somehow, as it's easily possible to get a +14 bonus to your Dexterity.

○ The Beastmaster's Ultimate Bond seems a little bit powerful. I really like the idea, but you should probably set some kind of limit or tone it down. Maybe allowing them to share damage, but with dimishing returns.

○ Giving the Manhunter precision damage is probably a bad idea. Or at least, reduce the progression so that it tops out at 4d6 instead of 7d6. The Ranger already has better HD and BAB progression than the Rogue.

○ The Scout could probably be powered up a little. Right now this just turns the Ranger into a Druid without the Wild Shape. Perhaps give him bonuses when he's dealing damage in a Surprise Round?

Other than the above issues, this looks pretty solid.

Matthew
2007-02-12, 04:37 PM
See, that's the trick, protect side as written doesn't work with Improved Combat Expertise ;)

You should probably state that explicitly, as all Improved Combat Expertise (Superior Expertise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#superiorExpertise)) does is remove the cap for Combat Expertise Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise just modifies the root Feat]. We were just discussing the same issue with TheOOB's Off Hand Parry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34468) Feat (which is probably a better name for this Class Feature).

cferejohn
2007-02-12, 06:02 PM
I'm not sure if it changed or what, but track seems to be a second level ability now. Is that just to stop other fighter/rogue-like classes from taking a level of ranger to pick up track for cheap? Seems like Rangers should know how to track from level 1; fluff-wise, it's kind of one of their base abilities. Maybe cap the max ranks of Survival that one can use for it at Ranger Level + 3?

Szatany
2007-02-13, 03:10 AM
I like the flavor, especially the idea of multiple avenues of progression. A few things did spring up which concern me, though:

Swarm of Arrows strikes me as a little powerful. You may want to cap this off somehow, as it's easily possible to get a +14 bonus to your Dexterity.
It's still inferior to Storm of Arrows epic feat, which is considered weak. And I wouldn't say +14 Dex is easily possible, +7 is (+3 starting, +1 race, +4 item, everything else is really DM dependant).


The Beastmaster's Ultimate Bond seems a little bit powerful. I really like the idea, but you should probably set some kind of limit or tone it down. Maybe allowing them to share damage, but with dimishing returns.Do you have a specific formula in mind? I can't think of anything that works AND is simple. Or perhaps cut ability damage out and leave rest as it is?


Giving the Manhunter precision damage is probably a bad idea. Or at least, reduce the progression so that it tops out at 4d6 instead of 7d6. The Ranger already has better HD and BAB progression than the Rogue.Remember that it only works on flat-footed targets, not flanked ones. But reducing it from 7d6 (24,5) to 4d8 (19) might work.


The Scout could probably be powered up a little. Right now this just turns the Ranger into a Druid without the Wild Shape. Perhaps give him bonuses when he's dealing damage in a Surprise Round?That's what a manhunter already gains. Maybe bonus damage after moving?


Other than the above issues, this looks pretty solid.
Thanks.


You should probably state that explicitly, as all Improved Combat Expertise (Superior Expertise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#superiorExpertise)) does is remove the cap for Combat Expertise Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise just modifies the root Feat]. We were just discussing the same issue with TheOOB's Off Hand Parry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34468) Feat (which is probably a better name for this Class Feature).

It's just semantics. You cannot use CE to lower your armor class by more than 5 so when you do, you are using another feat. And protect side will not work with that.


I'm not sure if it changed or what, but track seems to be a second level ability now. Is that just to stop other fighter/rogue-like classes from taking a level of ranger to pick up track for cheap? Seems like Rangers should know how to track from level 1; fluff-wise, it's kind of one of their base abilities. Maybe cap the max ranks of Survival that one can use for it at Ranger Level + 3?

It was always 2nd level, there was simply mistake in its description. It's 2nd level ability to unfrontload the ranger. He gains 2 abilities at 1st level and 2 at 2nd level, instead of 3+1. Also, by moving it to 2nd level and reducing dipping, you are making the ability a little more special and unique to woodland guys.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-13, 10:44 AM
It's still inferior to Storm of Arrows epic feat, which is considered weak. And I wouldn't say +14 Dex is easily possible, +7 is (+3 starting, +1 race, +4 item, everything else is really DM dependant).

Don't forget that someone can add at least a +2/+3 due to the ability score raises they get every four levels. That makes +10. Another +3 is possible with a Manual of Quickness of Action, which makes +13. If the player rolls really well for their Dexterity or is using an alternative point buy, they can start with a +4 to Dex, which brings it up to +14. It's going to bank on the Ranger ignoring most everything else, but... It's possible. And that's without anything from splat books.


Do you have a specific formula in mind? I can't think of anything that works AND is simple. Or perhaps cut ability damage out and leave rest as it is?

Unfortunately nothing springs to mind which is easy to implement and strikes me as balanced. Maybe a penalty for taking the damage or spell? For example, if you choose to take the damage from an enemy's attack, your partner still takes 1/10th the damage. Likewise, if you choose to take the effects of a spell instead of your partner you should have a small penalty (maybe -2/-3) to the effect. Any immunities or resistances you have are only half as effective (so if you're immune to fire, you still take half damage and if you've got Fire Resistence 10 it counts as Fire Resistence 5). Sorry, but when I saw this ability I just remembered some of the terribly broken things I used to do with my En Kor (or was it En Vec?) in Magic: The Gathering.


Remember that it (Ambush Attack) only works on flat-footed targets, not flanked ones.

Not quite true. It works on any foe denied their Dexterity Bonus to AC, which effects quite a lot more opponents. It's been my personal experience that foes being hit by flanking Sneak Attacks are rare after about level 5 or 6. More often than not, it's Blinking/Improved Invisible rogues which are the major damage dealers, and Blinking/Improved Invisibility would be perfectly viable tactics with this Ranger. Likewise, the Ranger would have the benefit of an animal companion which could enter a grapple... and foes in a grapple automatically lose their Dex bonus to AC as well.

As for the Scout, maybe give them an ability which slowly allows them to make more attacks while moving. Sort of like a combination of Shot on the Run/Spring Attack. Maybe allow the Scout to make a Full Attack action while moving, at the cost of -5 BAB (which means they lose an attack).

Szatany
2007-02-13, 12:59 PM
Don't forget that someone can add at least a +2/+3 due to the ability score raises they get every four levels. That makes +10. Another +3 is possible with a Manual of Quickness of Action, which makes +13. If the player rolls really well for their Dexterity or is using an alternative point buy, they can start with a +4 to Dex, which brings it up to +14. It's going to bank on the Ranger ignoring most everything else, but... It's possible. And that's without anything from splat books. All right, +13 it is, but will it really change much if ranger can use this ability against 10 or 15 targets? If there are that many, they are fodder anyway. This is the only ranger's area attack, quite potent but they deserve one (and it requires a lot of arrows). Whirlwind attack is available at 4th level to a fighter, nobody screams it's broken.


Unfortunately nothing springs to mind which is easy [...]in Magic: The GatheringThis sounds pretty complicated. I'll leave the issue for now and try to think of something.


Not quite true. It works on any foe denied their Dexterity Bonus to AC, which effects quite a lot more opponents. It's been my personal experience that foes being hit by flanking Sneak Attacks are rare after about level 5 or 6. More often than not, it's Blinking/Improved Invisible rogues which are the major damage dealers, and Blinking/Improved Invisibility would be perfectly viable tactics with this Ranger. Likewise, the Ranger would have the benefit of an animal companion which could enter a grapple... and foes in a grapple automatically lose their Dex bonus to AC as well.All right, what if manhunter had ability to deal extra 1d10 dam. at 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th step (totalling 4d10) to opponents unaware of him, and if they are aware but flat-footed, the bonus drops to 1d6 (totalling 4d6). Looks pretty sound to me.


As for the Scout, maybe give them an ability which slowly allows them to make more attacks while moving. Sort of like a combination of Shot on the Run/Spring Attack. Maybe allow the Scout to make a Full Attack action while moving, at the cost of -5 BAB (which means they lose an attack). Hmmmm. How about (changes in red):

4. Scout: Scouts are rangers who specialize in moving through rural terrain undetected and gathering intel.
Rover (Ex): A 2nd level ranger's speed increases by 5 ft. It further increases by 5 ft. at 8th, 14th, and and 20th level.
Trackless Step (Ex): At 2nd level, a ranger leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. He may choose to leave a trail if so desired.
Running Strike (Ex): When a 5th level ranger takes double move action, he can make a single attack at any point of that move.
Woodland Stride (Ex): A 8th level ranger may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect him.
Camouflage (Ex): At 11th level, a ranger can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While a 14th level ranger is in any sort of natural terrain, he can use the Hide skill even while being observed.
Wild Sight (Ex): A 17th level ranger can ignore nonmagical concealment other than total (such as mist, smoke, foliage, etc).
Running Assault (Ex): At 17th level, when a ranger takes double move action, he can make 2 attacks at any point of that move. Second attack is made at a -5 penalty.
Duck and Cover (Ex): A 20th level ranger who is not immobilized or unconscious is treated as prone at all times if that is beneficial to him.


Had to remove crawl, spelunking, and feather feet. They were flavorful but scout had a little to many abilities.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-13, 02:50 PM
All right, +13 it is, but will it really change much if ranger can use this ability against 10 or 15 targets? If there are that many, they are fodder anyway. This is the only ranger's area attack, quite potent but they deserve one (and it requires a lot of arrows). Whirlwind attack is available at 4th level to a fighter, nobody screams it's broken.

It doesn't really change much, but it does open up the potential for some abuse. Not much, admittedly, but it's there.

Keep in mind that even the Fighter's Whirlwind Attack takes five feats to gain and has strict limitations. Unless the Fighter is wielding a Spiked Chain, he's going to be able to Whirlwind attack either 8 (non-reach) or 16 (reach) opponents. Even assuming he does have a Spiked Chain, those 24 opponents all have to be dogpiling him right in close. The theoretical maximum here is extraordinarily unlikely. It's more likely that the Fighter is going to be able to get around four or five foes per use.

With this, the Ranger's sixty foot cone means that the Ranger's only practical limit is actually his Dexterity, which most Rangers dedicated to bow work are going to be pumping up already for both the AC Bonus and the increased To-Hit for their ranged attacks. I'm not saying the limit should be low (around ten foes at full BAB would strike me as fair), but that there should be one. Or perhaps keep the rule as it's written, but add that for every foe you strike beyond the first you take a -1 penalty to hit, up to the maximum of your Dexterity bonus? That makes it automatically scale to the number of foes you're hitting but still keeps it infinitely more attractive than Rapid Shot.

The changes to Manhunter look good, and I like the Scout quite a bit more now. The changes allow the Scout to be a real hit and run fighter, which suit him quite nicely.

Szatany
2007-02-13, 04:49 PM
Perhaps if we add a very simple line, the ability will be kept in check:

"A ranger cannot make an attack against opponent if another creature of the same or greater size is in the line of sight or if the opponent has cover.".

That would effectively reduce possible targets to, lets say 6 under most circumstances.

Matthew
2007-02-13, 07:30 PM
It's just semantics. You cannot use CE to lower your armor class by more than 5 so when you do, you are using another feat. And protect side will not work with that.

Semantics are the bread and butter of D&D Feats and Class Features. It is generally better to be explicit than to have to issue an errata or answer a FAQ later on. Reading this Class Feature as written, I would conclude that it allowed for Improved Combat Expertise.

Szatany
2007-02-14, 02:24 AM
Semantics are the bread and butter of D&D Feats and Class Features. It is generally better to be explicit than to have to issue an errata or answer a FAQ later on. Reading this Class Feature as written, I would conclude that it allowed for Improved Combat Expertise.
Then how about this little fix:

Protect Side (Ex): At 17th level, when a ranger fights defensively or uses Combat Expertise, up to 4 points of penalty on attack rolls applies only to one weapon he wields.

fireinthedust
2007-02-14, 03:57 PM
I like the Flurry of Arrows (or whatever it's called), and before you harp on it, let me tell you what I've learned about high-level play: monsters all tend to have massive DR (at least 10/-), if not higher. Fighters should get Power attack as, by 10th level, AC isn't the big issue, getting past DR is.

I thought TWF was a big deal, but keep in mind they don't have the bonus damage to each attack that a Power Attack fighter does (not my genius, it's my friend who showed me in-game). My dervish may have 14 attacks, but unless he's putting out 20dmg per hit (not total, as DR is per hit) that monster is staying put and laughing at me (especially with regenerate and fast healing getting back the measly shots it took, if any).

Same thing with archery builds. If he has 14, by whatever level it is he's going to need every shot for larger monsters: it'll be cumulative leftover after DR. Wounding arrows, exploding arrows, whatever; they're also expensive, unless the Bow is what enchants them, and you've got a cartload of arros sticking out of a bag of holding.

Szatany
2007-02-14, 04:43 PM
<smacks his forehead> I knew I forgot something. DR of course. I'm leaving swarm of arrows as it is.

Renloth
2007-02-15, 11:27 AM
Since this seems a rewrite of the classes over on the WotC boards, and I love those, I like this. Only question, where did all the wolf totem stuff go? Also, how about all the feats that went with these classes?

Szatany
2007-02-15, 01:54 PM
Since this seems a rewrite of the classes over on the WotC boards, and I love those, I like this. Only question, where did all the wolf totem stuff go? Also, how about all the feats that went with these classes?
Wolf is shelved for the time being, as I don't know how to scale scent elegantly, but someone can show me I'll add it.

Most feats no longer apply as rules they depended on changed or are gone completly. As such, over half was deleted.

Morty
2007-02-15, 03:00 PM
Hm. I like it. But is there any chance of spellcasting no-animal companion ranger version? Maybe some variant that sacrifices animal companion to get spells. But otherwise, nice job.

Szatany
2007-02-17, 11:59 AM
Hm. I like it. But is there any chance of spellcasting no-animal companion ranger version? Maybe some variant that sacrifices animal companion to get spells. But otherwise, nice job.
Sorry but I don't like the idea of spellcasting ranger, that's why I made non-spellcasting variant in the first place.

Neek
2007-02-17, 03:53 PM
Wow. I can only say, wow. This is an amazing class rebuild. I especially enjoy the sense that the class is conveying. Just a few things about the fluff. To make it easier to read, the list for Outdoorsman should be separated into Feats, Totems and Abilities. It's not important, but it might help in organization.

Looking at this, this class allows many numbers of builds possible . One could feasibly make a character like a Hunter from World of Warcraft, a ranger in the style of Aragorn, or something more unique and less based on literary! This, this is nice.

Szatany
2007-03-04, 10:42 AM
Added wolf totem.

Eleven
2007-04-19, 08:44 AM
This is possibly the coolest ranger i have ever seen.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2007-04-19, 08:54 PM
Blagfugiashfifoa!!!

Tat's all i can say.