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lunar2
2014-05-15, 07:10 PM
So, an idea i had a few weeks ago was to rework monsters so that their ECL, HD, and CR were all the same. the origin for this idea was that i wanted giants in my setting that grew from human size based on on their combat experience (adrenaline rushes cause a release of growth hormone, leading to a growth spurt). so based, on that, i have made the 20 level Giant racial class.

HD: D8
class skills: climb, craft, diplomacy, intimidate, jump, listen, perform, sense motive, spot, swim
skill points at first level: 2+int x4
skill points at each subsequent level: 2+int



LEVEL
BASE ATTACK
FORTITUDE
REFLEX
WILL
SPECIAL


1
0
2
0
0



2
1
3
0
0
Slam, Dexterity +2


3
2
3
1
1
Strength +2, Intelligence +2


4
3
4
1
1
Large, Natural Armor +1


5
3
4
1
1
Strength +2, Constitution +2


6
4
5
2
2
Speed 40, Dexterity +2


7
5
5
2
2
Strength +2, Wisdom +2


8
6
6
2
2
Rock Throwing, +1 Natural Armor


9
6
6
3
3
Strength +2, Charisma +2


10
7
7
3
3
2 Slams, Dexterity +2


11
8
7
3
3
Strength +2, Intelligence +2


12
9
8
4
4
Oversized Weapon, +1 Natural Armor


13
9
8
4
4
Strength +2, Wisdom +2


14
10
9
4
4
Rock Catching, Dexterity +2


15
11
9
5
5
Strength +2, Intelligence +2


16
12
10
5
5
Huge, Natural Armor +1


17
12
10
5
5
Strength +2, Charisma +2


18
13
11
6
6
Speed 50, Dexterity +2


19
14
11
6
6
Strength +2, Wisdom +2


20
15
12
6
6
Freedom of Movement, Constitution +2



base racial characteristics: +4 str, -2 dex, +3 natural armor, low light vision

class features:
weapon and armor proficiency: a giant is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, but not with armor. they are proficient with shields, but not tower shields. once a giant gains the rock throwing ability, they are also proficient with rocks, and treat them as simple weapons, rather than improvised weapons.

Slam: at 2nd level, a giant gains a natural slam attack. this deals 1D4 damage for a medium giant, threatens a critical hit on a roll of 20, and deals double damage on a critical hit. at 10th level, a giant gains a second slam attack.

Size Increase: all adult giants start out at 6 ft. tall. with each level in the giant racial class, they grow 1d4+7 inches if they are female, or 1d4+8 inches if they are male. at 4th level, their size class increases to large, with the appropriate modifiers for increasing size class. at 16th level, their size increases to huge.

Speed Increase: at 6th level, a giant's speed increases to 40 ft. at 18th level, it increases once again, to 50 ft.

Rock Throwing (Ex): Adult giants are accomplished rock throwers and receive a +4 racial bonus on attack rolls when throwing rocks. A giant of at least Large size can hurl rocks weighing 40 to 50 pounds each (Small objects) up to five range increments. The size of the range increment is 50 ft., and deals 2d6 damage. A Huge giant can hurl rocks of 60 to 80 pounds (Medium objects), with a range increment of 100 ft., dealing 3d6 damage. rocks can be thrown with one or two hands.

Oversized Weapon: giants of 12th level or higher can wield weapons one size category larger than themselves with no penalty. a large giant throwing an oversized rock deals 3d6 damage, and a huge giant throwing an oversized rock deals 4d6 damage.

Rock Catching(Ex): giants of 14th level and higher can, as an immediate action, catch rocks or similar projectiles that would otherwise hit them. the giant must make a reflex save (DC 15 for a small rock, 20 for a medium, or 25 for a large). if the rock has an enhancement bonus to attack rolls, add that to the save DC.

Freedom of Movement(Ex): a 20th level giant is so physically powerful that they become practically unstoppable. they are under a constant freedom of movement effect.


giants of 5th level or lower are called ogres, 6-15th level giants, and 16-20th level titans.

so. i'm aiming for a T4 class here. too little, too much? if it gets up to borderline 3/4 that's fine, i just want to make sure it's at least a solid T4, comparable to the other mundane classes in the setting.

Loek
2014-05-16, 07:56 AM
As long as you limit them to only taking this class for the first 20 levels, it's probably alright. (or maybe 1 of this, 1 of another, 1 of this... etc)

I'd limit rock throwing to 2 handed though (maybe 1 handed if they use 1 category smaller projectiles? - Should probably give damages/ranges for those anyhow)

Speed/Size increase... while I figure you've split these to give interesting stuff at more levels, normally, speed would increase when your size increases... At the least mention in the size segment that your speed does not increase (yet).


The reason for my "limit it to only this" the rather neat ability score increases (and the rather high initial stats, which otherwise would be LA +1 again :tongue:)

Also, I'm not entirely sure about the mental (and dexterity) increases... they don't really match my idea (or your given fluff so far) of giants... so please explain that one to me.

Finally, I personally wouldn't give them over-sized weapon (if only for the whole "my sword is bigger than my house" stuff that can be pulled... limit it to rocks or "improvised weapons" only)

lunar2
2014-05-16, 01:33 PM
the ability scores add up to be the same as a storm giant at level 20, assuming 10s and 11s for base stats. although that might have been the stone giant's dexterity score, i forget. i figure giants start off clumsy, and as they get more experienced, they get more comfortable with their growing body, so their dexterity increases accordingly. as for high mental stats, they have a big brain, so they get big stats (yes, i realize that in real life, intellect is only vaguely related to brain size, but i don't think it's a coincidence that some of the largest brains are in the most intelligent animals, like whales and elephants).

it is a racial class, just like in savage species. you start it, you finish it, then you're done. it's just designed as a class instead of a monster to be usable at all levels, rather than needing to build separate entries for ogres, giants, and titans. the base race seems so strong because that is your racial abilities and your first level class features, which is why the level one line on the table is blank for features.

i listed the damage for a large giant's rock as 2d6 (20, x2), with a range increment of 50 ft. a huge giant's rock, and a large giant's oversized rock, is 3d6 (20, x2) with a range increment of 100 ft. for huge giants, and 50 ft. for large giants. an oversized huge giant's rock deals 4d6 (20, x2), and still has a range increment of 100 ft. as for the rocks, they are considered one handed weapons. like other one handed weapons, they can be used 2 handed for increased strength to damage. mainly because i just really like the image of a giant chunking rocks at a castle with one in each hand. one thing i do need to do is specify that giants are proficient with the rocks, though. as it stands, their racial bonus to attack rolls is canceled out by the non-proficiency penalty.

size increases do not automatically come with speed increases in the monster manual. again, the fluff would be that the giants, going through these sudden growth spurts, have to grow accustomed to their longer legs before they can put them to good use, so it takes a few levels after the size increase before they get a handle on their speed. that, and i wanted an actual class feature on every even numbered level, instead of just ability score and/or natural armor increases.

which is also why they don't get both slams at once. at level two, they get one slam, which i envision as a double axe handle, just because that looks cool, no matter how impractical it actually is. then at level 10, they are bigger and more skilled, so they just punch, freeing up both hands.

as for oversized weapon, titans and cloud giants both get it, and it's an ability that feels like something a giant would have. big guy with big weapon, you know? it only goes up one size category, though, so it shouldn't be too ridiculous. it's not even as good as powerful build, although it's better than monkey grip.

lunar2
2014-05-18, 10:04 PM
so, turns out i gave the giant more strength than i meant to. storm giants have +28 racial to strength, this giant has +38. the good news is, that's how much strength greater dusk giants have. dusk giants also have 10 more con than storm giants, and 4 more charisma. also, going by storm giant stats, i shorted this guy 4 wisdom. so, would it make this guy too powerful with an extra 10 con, 4 wis, and 4 cha at level 20? by too powerful, i mean will this giant still fall somewhere in T3 or T4? i am concerned that it's currently too weak for a CR 20, and an extra hundred HP could give it as much as another full round in which to do its thing, while another 2 to will saves may save it from death by spell. cha really doesn't matter much on the monster side, since PCs are immune to diplomacy and this guy has no spell likes, so it mainly just boosts any player that wants to use it, which as long as it doesn't outshine my casters, i don't mind.

also, i'm not using any class with a rage mechanic in my setting, and pissed off giants are kind of a fantasy staple. how would basic, 1/day rage affect this, on both sides of the equation? since it's 1/day, it should affect NPCs and PCs equally, right? i'm really worried that this guy isn't CR 20 material, since even if i increased his con and Wis, he's comparable to an existing monster that's CR 14 (greater dusk giant). of course, he also won't be going against anything higher than T3, so there will be fewer game breakers being thrown around for him to compete against.

of course, now that i'm looking outside the monster manual, death giants have 10 more cha than this giant (6 more than dusk giant). eldritch giants would add +4 int, and knowledge as a class skill. sand giants add survival, which the big guys probably need to feed themselves. Craa’ghoran giants increase natural armor by 4, to a total of 16.

lunar2
2014-05-20, 09:09 PM
so, i'm still not convinced this holds up on the CR side. i plan on playtesting it against my martial base classes tomorrow, but in the mean time, i went searching through the monster manuals looking for ideas, and found a few more abilities that would fit the giant theme. oh, and i'm not going to add rage.

Batter (Ex): ignore half the hardness of unattended objects.

players usually don't have a time limit for breaking down doors and the like, so this doesn't help the players much. but it fits the giant's wartime purpose as a siege weapon (break walls and gates faster), or in a situation where the giant has to break down a reinforced door before the players finish buffing, or something similar. i just think this ability would be more useful for an NPC than a PC, so it would be safe to add.

Crush (Ex): jump at least 20 feet, or drop down from a ledge at least 20 feet high, and creatures at least 2 size categories smaller than you that are caught in your area must make a reflex save (DC 10+ 1/2 RHD + Str) or be pinned, and automatically take 2d6+ 1.5x Str damage.

again, better on a monster, who will fight lots of medium and small size PCs, than on a PC, who fights lots of large or larger monsters that this ability wouldn't work on.

Improved Grab (Ex): If you hit an opponent at least one size category smaller with a slam attack, you deal normal damage, and can initiate a grapple as a free action. on a successful grapple, you can fling the opponent away on your next turn, grapple normally, or simply hold your opponent in that hand (taking a -20 to the grapple check) and otherwise acting normally.

again. monsters fight smaller PCs, and get to use this ability a lot. PCs fight big monsters, so won't get as much mileage.

Fling (Ex):A giant that sucessfully grapples a foe two or more size categories smaller than itself can hurl the
creature as a standard action. A flung creature travels up to 120 feet and takes 12d6 points of damage. A creature that is flung off a raised surface takes this amount of damage or the appropriate falling damage, whichever is greater. The giant also can throw the flung creature as though it were a boulder. In this case, the flung creature takes 12d6+ Str points of damage, and any opponent it strikes takes damage as appropriate for a boulder of the same size.

as above. good for monsters, not as good for PCs.

Trample (Ex): MM page 316.

so all these would make a giant a beast when dealing with multiple smaller enemies, which is the position the giant finds itself in as a monster. but they don't come up nearly as often when you're a PC, where you usually fight single opponents that are much larger.

also, i was considering bludgeoning damage immunity, from ocean giant. something like their hide is so thick and bones so strong bludgeoning weapons just don't hurt them. the problem, players face a lot of things with bite attacks, which deal bludgeoning damage. while bludgeoning weapons on the side of the PCs aren't as common as slashing or piercing weapons, so this ability would actually benefit the PC version a lot more than the monster version.

also, the total racial ability bonuses, if all were included, would be (at level 20): Str +38, Dex +4, Con +26, Int +8, Wis +10, Cha +14, with a natural armor bonus of +16 (or +29, if i used the mountain giant's stats).