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View Full Version : Pathfinder Cabalist (Magus Archetype Fix) + 2 Arcana



Sasaisen
2014-05-20, 04:30 PM
The cabalist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/super-genius-games---magus-archetypes/cabalist), as with much third party material, is not very well written. I've fixed it up for a character I'm running, and my GM requires that, whenever we rewrite or homebrew something for his game, it's posted here for evaluation/criticism/ridicule. There's also a couple of arcana I want to run past as well. Any thoughts or feedback are welcome.

Spells and Cantrips

The cabalist gains cantrips, spells known, and spells per day as a bard of the same level, but she uses the standard magus class spell list and her Intelligence score instead of Charisma. She casts spells spontaneously and applies metamagic feats to her spells in the same manner as other spontaneous arcane casters. If a cabalist selects the harmonic blending, jinx blending, or spell blending magus arcanas, she gains the selected spells as bonus spells known.

This modifies the standard spells and cantrips abilities, and it replaces the magus's spellbook.

Bloodline

The cabalist selects one sorcerous bloodline. She adds the spells from that bloodline to her class spell list, and may learn them normally, but does not receive them as bonus spells known. She also does not acquire bonus feats as a sorcerer does. In all other respects, she has access to the arcana, powers, and any other abilities of that bloodline as if she was a sorcerer of her magus level. Any bloodline arcana, powers, or other abilities that are based on Charisma instead use her Intelligence.

This ability replaces spell combat; the magus arcana learned at 3rd level, 9th level, and 15th level; and true magus.

Spellstrike

Any bloodline powers that require a touch attack may be delivered with a weapon attack, as if it was a touch spell. In all other respects, this ability functions as a normal magus's spellstrike.

Spell Recall

At 4th level, with a swift action, the cabalist can regain any spell slot that she has already cast that day by expending a number of points from her arcane pool equal to the spellís level (minimum 1). This modifies a normal magus's spell recall.

Bonus Feats

At 5th, 11th, and 17th levels, the cabalist may select one of the bonus feats from her bloodline instead of a combat, item creation, or metamagic feat. This modifies a normal magus's bonus feats.

Knowledge Pool

At 7th level, when a cabalist rests, she can expend a number of points from her arcane pool up to her Intelligence bonus to temporarily add additional spells known, chosen from the magus spell list or her bloodline spells. Adding a spell to her spells known for the day costs a number of points from her arcane pool equal to the spell level; a cantrip is treated as one spell level. She cannot use knowledge pool to gain a higher level spell than she can cast. She treats these temporary spells as if they were spells she normally knows, retaining them until she next rests, when they are forgotten.

This modifies a normal magus's knowledge pool.

Spell Combat

The cabalist gains this ability at 8th level instead of 1st level. This ability replaces improved spell combat.

Improved Spell Recall

At 11th level, the cabalistís ability to regain spell slots using her arcane pool becomes more efficient. Whenever she regains a spell slot with spell recall, she expends a number of points from her arcane pool equal to 1/2 the slotís level (minimum 1). This modifies a normal magus's improved spell recall.

Improved Spell Combat

The cabalist gains this ability at 14th level instead of 8st level. This ability replaces greater spell combat.

Bloodline Spells

At 19th level, the cabalist learns the 1st level through 6th level spells from her bloodline. If she already knew one or more of these spells, she may add any other spell from the magus list of the same level to her spells known. This ability replaces greater spell access.

Metamagic Pool: When the magus casts a spell, he can apply any metamagic feat he knows to it by expending a number of points from his arcane pool equal to the spell level adjustment of the metamagic (minimum 1), as long as the total modified level of the spell is not higher than what he can normally cast. Doing so does not increase the casting time of the spell or the level of the spell slot used.

Full Spellstrike: Whenever the magus uses spell combat and first casts a touch spell, or makes a full attack and has a touch spell active, the spell effects every creature he hits, even if normally only a single creature could be targeted. Creatures that are hit multiple times are only affected by the spell once. If multiple touches can be made as part of that spell, only a single touch is used. Any other limitations on the spell, such as an explicit use limit per round, still apply.

Ilorin Lorati
2014-05-21, 01:14 AM
The archetype seems fine; my primary concern is with the "Full Spellstrike" - the wording is kind of poor and even with the most conservative interpretation I can see it could come out quadrupling the power of touch spells without any sort of cost (except arcana chosen) at high levels.

Basically, here's how I'm reading it:

You cast a spell, then on the next turn full attack, for that full action you add that spell's damage to the spell, and that assumes you hit with any at all. If you don't, rules for touch spells mean you get the chance again next round. That last part isn't really the focus, mind, but it is a bonus.

At low levels, this is useless; Until 8 your full attack is one whole attack. You'll have spell combat by the time you get your second attack, allowing you to cast then make your full attack in the same turn; this means that you don't even lose out on action economy to be able to double or triple your returns from, say, Shocking Grasp. At level 8, it'd quite possible to do weapon damage + 8d6+8 twice per round without even major optimization with this. The saving grace is that with the archetype, metamagiced spells will be full round actions normally, making it hard to pull this off round after round (until 15, when you get spell perfection - and it'd be stupid not to with this). It'll be one hell of an opener, though, since touch spells can be held almost indefinitely.

How does this interact with Spellstrike? Can you end the "full spellstrike" with a spellstrike? (Personally, I'd say no since the spellstrike attack isn't part of the full attack technically).

You'll likely still conserve or expend spells the same way as you would have otherwise, but you'll be doing significantly more damage per spell than you would without it, and Magus is not a class that needed any help with dealing damage. That goes double for status effect touch spells; can you imagine if you got a hold of a paralyze spell like Ghoul Touch? Try until you succeed, then move on to another target. Those enemies are dead. Period. Touch spells with multiple charges would let you go on for multiple rounds, and cast non-touch spells with spell combat all the while.

Paizo even makes it easy. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo---magus-arcana/spell-blending-ex)

Metamagic pool seems fine, especially considering the limited nature of your arcane pool. You may want to consider capping the max effective spell level after application to their highest spell level, otherwise you'll end up with metamagiced high level spells that are well beyond what was considered when magus was balanced.

Sasaisen
2014-05-21, 06:17 AM
Basically, here's how I'm reading it:

You cast a spell, then on the next turn full attack, for that full action you add that spell's damage to the spell, and that assumes you hit with any at all. If you don't, rules for touch spells mean you get the chance again next round. That last part isn't really the focus, mind, but it is a bonus. Pretty much. This is intended as a port of the duskblade's full attack channeling ability, if you're familiar with that, but paizo's implementation of spellstrike and spell combat makes the wording a little difficult.


At low levels, this is useless; Until 8 your full attack is one whole attack. You'll have spell combat by the time you get your second attack, allowing you to cast then make your full attack in the same turn; this means that you don't even lose out on action economy to be able to double or triple your returns from, say, Shocking Grasp.This interaction with spell combat, while actually not valid how I worded it, was intentional. Because of that, the arcana is useful even before you get your iterative - use spell combat to cast a touch spell, make the free attack with it, and then make your normal attack that also benefits from the touch spell.


At level 8, it'd quite possible to do weapon damage + 8d6+8 twice per round without even major optimization with this. The saving grace is that with the archetype, metamagiced spells will be full round actions normally, making it hard to pull this off round after round (until 15, when you get spell perfection - and it'd be stupid not to with this).The way I worded the ability (which was the same wording as the duskblade's ability), even if a creature is hit multiple times, they are only affected by the spell once. I'll make that more explicit.


How does this interact with Spellstrike? Can you end the "full spellstrike" with a spellstrike? (Personally, I'd say no since the spellstrike attack isn't part of the full attack technically). Why would that be the case? Nothing about the arcana grants an extra attack.


You'll likely still conserve or expend spells the same way as you would have otherwise, but you'll be doing significantly more damage per spell than you would without it, and Magus is not a class that needed any help with dealing damage. That goes double for status effect touch spells; can you imagine if you got a hold of a paralyze spell like Ghoul Touch? Try until you succeed, then move on to another target. Those enemies are dead. Period.The status quo is that if you miss a person with a touch spell, you get to try again, and as previously mentioned the ability won't let you hit the same person with the effect twice. If you can get more than one person within your reach, and hit them all within a round, then sure. You've earned it. I will also point out that whenever you're doing this amazing damage or effect to people close to you, most spellcasters are doing the same or better damage or effect, in a much larger area, after moving over there. All this ability is doing, practically speaking, is turning your touch spells into really close-range bursts.


It'll be one hell of an opener, though, since touch spells can be held almost indefinitely.

...

Touch spells with multiple charges would let you go on for multiple rounds, and cast non-touch spells with spell combat all the while.
You can't cast other spells while holding a charge from a touch spell. Also, as far as I know, Chill Touch is literally the only multiple-charge touch spell.


Metamagic pool seems fine, especially considering the limited nature of your arcane pool. You may want to consider capping the max effective spell level after application to their highest spell level, otherwise you'll end up with metamagiced high level spells that are well beyond what was considered when magus was balanced.That was already in place. Changed the wording to be more in line with similar paizo abilities.

Ilorin Lorati
2014-05-21, 01:51 PM
Pretty much. This is intended as a port of the duskblade's full attack channeling ability, if you're familiar with that, but paizo's implementation of spellstrike and spell combat makes the wording a little difficult.


This interaction with spell combat, while actually not valid how I worded it, was intentional. Because of that, the arcana is useful even before you get your iterative - use spell combat to cast a touch spell, make the free attack with it, and then make your normal attack that also benefits from the touch spell.


The way I worded the ability (which was the same wording as the duskblade's ability), even if a creature is hit multiple times, they are only affected by the spell once. I'll make that more explicit.

Alright.


Why would that be the case? Nothing about the arcana grants an extra attack. Spellstrike, however, does, and from earlier comments, it does sound like you still get the ability to make your free attack which makes it a fair bit better than I expected it to be in that respect.


The status quo is that if you miss a person with a touch spell, you get to try again, and as previously mentioned the ability won't let you hit the same person with the effect twice. If you can get more than one person within your reach, and hit them all within a round, then sure. You've earned it. I will also point out that whenever you're doing this amazing damage or effect to people close to you, most spellcasters are doing the same or better damage or effect, in a much larger area, after moving over there. All this ability is doing, practically speaking, is turning your touch spells into really close-range bursts.

The difference being is that the spells you're using were, at no point, balanced around being able to be used against multiple people. Going back to Ghoul Touch as an example, successive attacks with it actually have a chance to become better after the first because of that spell's ability to sicken nearby enemies. It's hard to balance.


You can't cast other spells while holding a charge from a touch spell. Also, as far as I know, Chill Touch is literally the only multiple-charge touch spell. Forgot about the first part. This is what happens when I give feedback at 3 AM; my bad.
As for the latter, you should still define how it works with abilities that have multiple touches, in case there's RTA spells (Close Range arcana) or bloodlines with multiple touch attacks.


All in all it's not quite as strong as it looked at first glance, though I would still recommend having an arcane pool cost or some other limitation that gives it an opportunity cost.

As is, there's honestly no point to not take it as a Magus, and that's saying something considering the options that Magus gets; even with the limitations you have in place it'll end up being used in just about every combat except ones with just a single enemy, with the only cost being taking it in the first place.