PDA

View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class 3.5 Lifebond Summoner



WebTiefling
2014-05-22, 01:03 PM
Lifebond Summoner
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/293/1/5/chimera_summoner_by_billcreative-d5ig1z6.jpg

The dabbling wizard may summon something for a while, but there are those who seek after power with such abandon that they are willing to forever share their very life with another being in pursuit of power. The way is fraught with dangers, but for those who will give their all, the beings of the planes are theirs to command!

Alignment: Any but True Neutral

Class Skills:
Bluff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm), Concentration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm), Craft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm), Decipher Script (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/decipherScript.htm), Diplomacy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm), Intimidate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm), Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm) (all skills taken individually), Sense Motive (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/senseMotive.htm), Spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm)

Skill Points at 1st Level
(2 + Int modifier) ラ4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
2 + Int modifier.

Table: The Lifebond Summoner


LevelBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecial01st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th


1+0+0+0+2Conjuring Devotion, Bonded Companion31覧覧覧覧


2+1+0+0+342覧覧覧覧


3+1+1+1+3421覧覧覧


4+2+1+1+4Augment Summoning432覧覧覧


5+2+1+1+44321覧覧覧


6+3+2+2+5Telepathic Bond4332覧覧覧


7+3+2+2+554321覧覧


8+4+2+2+6Spontaneous Summoning54332覧覧


9+4+3+3+6544321覧覧


10+5+3+3+7Bond of Teamwork544332覧覧


11+5+3+3+75444321覧


12+6/+1+4+4+8Superior Summoning5444432覧


13+6/+1+4+4+864444321覧


14+7/+2+4+4+9Planar Affinity64444332覧


15+7/+2+5+5+9644444321


16+8/+3+5+5+10Greater Companion644444332


17+8/+3+5+5+106444444321


18+9/+4+6+6+11Influential Dealings6444444332


19+9/+4+6+6+116444444432


20+10/+5+6+6+12Empowered Companion6444444433



Casting
A Lifebond Summoner casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A Summoner must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time.

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the Summoner must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Summoner痴 spell is 10 + the spell level + the Summoner痴 Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a Lifebond Summoner can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Bonded Summoner. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

A Lifebond Summoner may know any number of spells, though he may never cast a spell from a banned school of magic. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting a good night痴 sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the Summoner decides which spells to prepare.

Conjuring Devotion
The Lifebond Summoner must be a Conjurer, dropping two schools of magic and focusing on Conjuration. The Summoner does not receive an extra spell per day like a typical Conjurer. The Bonded Summoner is so focused on his approach to summoning that he cannot have a familiar, and all non-Conjuration spells are cast at a -1 CL.

Bonded Companion
The Lifebond Summoner creates a bargain with a willing, non-unique, non-templated Outsider that matches his alignment. This bonding takes a 24 hour ritual requiring bargaining between the caster and the Bonded Companion. The bargain varies, but at the bare minimum requires the exchange of some of the summoner's life force (in the form of XP over time) in exchange for the Companion's aid and service. Thereafter, the caster is forever bound to that particular outsider unless the outsider is slain. If this happens, the Summoner takes 1d6 damage per HD of the Companion at the time of the death and loses 500 XP. The Summoner may bond another outsider of the appropriate level if his previous Bonded Companion is killed.

The Companion must be a 1 HD Outsider at first level.

Beginning at level 1, once per day for 2 hours per level, the Summoner may call the Companion with a one full round action which may trigger an attack of opportunity. The Companion functions as a cohort (the Leadership Feat can be taken but cannot gain a cohort - the bond between Summoner and Companion is too exclusive. Any capability to gain a cohort, animal companion, familiar, or other similar companion simply fails), and not as a summoned creature under the direct control of a caster. This may cause conflict between the Bonded Companion and Summoner should the Summoner begin acting in ways disagreeable to the Companion.

The Outsider has a +4 bonus to resist Dismissal. The Lifebond Summoner may dismiss the Companion as a free action, though if the Companion does not wish to be dismissed, the Summoner must succeed in an opposed Charisma check. If this check fails, the Companion may stay and can act in whatever way it wishes until its regular time of being summoned has expired. The Summoner may not make a second dismissal attempt during this summoning of the Companion, though spells to dismiss the Companion as any other outsider may work.

The cost of the bonding is in life force from the summoner to the companion. This is represented by it taking an extra next-level * 50 XP to advance to the next level. Upon advancing, this XP is lost to the Bonded Summoner and instead is used by the Companion to become more powerful in some way. For example, a first level Bonded Summoner must reach 1100 XP [1000 + (2*50)] to reach level two. Once he reaches level two, the extra 100 XP is lost. A second level Summoner must reach 3150 XP [3000 + (3*50)] to reach level three, and then loses 150 XP. A nineteenth level Summoner must reach 191,000 XP [190,000 + (20*50)] to reach level 20, and then loses 1000 XP. Over the course of 20 levels, this takes 10450 XP.

As the Lifebond Summoner increases in level, the bond between the Summoner and the outsider strengthens the outsider, granting it an increase in HD. The outsider is advanced so that its extra HD from advancement plus its CR or HD (whichever is higher) are equal to the Lifebond Summoner's level. If the Lifebond Summoner's level is high enough to be a different types of outsider (based on CR or HD, whichever is higher), the Companion may become that type of outsider, though it may not change its alignment nor may it return to a type of outsider which it has previously been. (The outsider is promoted, gains power, transforms, or whatever explanation makes sense.)

For example, when a Lifebond Summoner who has bonded a Lantern Archon reaches level 2, the Lantern Archon may become a Protectar (2 HD, 2 CR). When the Summoner reaches level 6, the Lantern Archon may be changed into a Hound Archon (6 HD, 4 CR). Upon 14th level, the Hound Archon may change into a Trumpet Archon (12 HD, 14 CR).

Augment Summoning
At level 4, a Lifebond Summoner gains the Augment Summoning feat even if he does not qualify for it.

Telepathic Bond (Su)
At level 6, the Summoner and the Companion have developed a bond with each other with the shared life force. They have a telepathic bond with each other with a range of 1 mile.

Spontaneous Summoning
At level 8, a Lifebond Summoner becomes so familiar with summoning that he may convert existing spells into Summon Monster spells of the appropriate

Bond of Teamwork (Ex)
Long familiarity with each other allows them to work together with smooth precision, protecting each other from threats. When within ten feet of each other, both the Summoner and the Companion gain a +2 circumstance bonus to their AC and their Saves. If they come into conflict with each other for any reason, this bonus changes, becoming instead a -2 penalty to their AC and Saves as they know best how to pierce each others defenses.

Superior Summoning
At level 12, the casting time for Summon Monster and for summoning the Bonded Companion are reduced to a Standard Action instead of a full round action. Summon Monster spells and the length of time the Bonded Companion are both doubled, as with the Extend Spell metamagic feat. This does not increase the spell level of the spell being cast.

Planar Affinity
The bond between the Summoner and the Companion protects the Summoner from the traits of the Companion's home plane. The Summoner is immune to harmful aspects of the Companion's home plane, if any.

Greater Companion
Any spell like abilities which the Companion may have which affect itself only can also affect the Bonded Summoner, though only while the Companion is within 5' per HD.

Influential Dealings
The Summoner's reputation or familiarity with the beings of his Companion's home plane allow him to have greater influence when summoning those beings. Any checks the Summoner makes when dealing with beings summoned from the Companion's home plane via Planar Binding, Planar Ally, or Gate gain a +2 bonus. This bonus increases to +4 if the Companion is with the Summoner during the dealings.

Empowered Companion
The Bonded Companion, with the strength gained from its bond with the player has reached a greater station, acquired greater capabilities, or has gained greater power in some way. It gains 200,000 gp worth of "equipment", though this equipment is permanently bonded to the Companion and cannot be used by any other being. If this equipment is ruined, destroyed, or removed in any way it will be restored the next time the Companion is summoned. This equipment may not be items with limited charges, though continuous effects or unlimited use items are valid.

List of outsiders that players may want to use. Many, MANY thanks to Dracomortis and Angelalex242 for their work on this list! May the RNG smile upon them!



Chaotic Good
Chaotic Neutral
Chaotic Evil
Neutral Good
Neutral
Neutral Evil
Lawful Good
Lawful Neutral
Lawful Evil



1 HD
aasimar, chaond
chaond
chaond, mane, fey'ri, tiefling, wispling
aasimar
air genasi, earth genasi, ether scarab, fire genasi, least spirit centipede, shyft, varoot, water genasi
tiefling, vargouille, wispling
aasimar, bladeling, lantern archon, zenythri
bladeling, formian worker, mechanatrix, zenythri
bladeling, kalabon, maeluth, tiefling, wispling, zenythri



2 HD
coure, musteval, protectar
bacchae, least soulspark
abyssal maw, abyssal skulker, dretch, lizard king/queen, windrazor
least soulspark, protectar, stone child
--
kaorti, least soulspark
protectar
azer, least soulspark, lumi
filth imp, lemure, nupperibo



3 HD
bariaur
--
abyssal ravager, baphitaur, carnage demon, quasit, vorr
triton
air mephit, aoa droplet, dust mephit, earth mephit, fire mephit, glass mephit, ice mephit, juvenile arrowhawk, juvenile tojanida, kalareem, lesser spirit centipede, magma mephit, minor xorn, ooze mephit, ravid, salt mephit, steam mephit, sulfur mephit, sylph, water mephit
demonet swarm, demonhive attendant, yeth hound
--
--
imp, legion devil, spined devil



4 HD
--
lesser soulspark
flamebrother salamander, gadacro, guecubu, haino no oni, jovoc, nashrou, skulvyn, wrackspawn
cervidal, lesser soulspark
keeper, rast
flamebrother salamander, lesser soulspark, shadow mastiff, skeroloth
ramadeen
formian warrior, lesser soulspark
advespa, bloodbag imp, euphoric imp, flamebrother salamander, hellhound, white abishai



5 HD
--
--
artaaglith, juvenile nabassu, maurezhi, rutterkin, shikibu no oni, tanarukk
--
greater spirit centipede, xac-yel, xac-yij, xag-ya, xap-yaup, xeg-yi, xong-yong
voor
dwarf ancestor
visilight
black abishai, durzagon, rejkar, reth dekala, xill



6 HD
bralani, movanic deva
mud slaad, soulspark
bar-lgura, draegloth, ekolid, howler, minion of Set, myrlochar, sanru no oni, succubus
equinal, hollyphant, movanic deva, soulspark
janni
canoloth, lesser nightmare, nightmare, shadow eft, soulspark, vaath
hound archon, justice archon, movanic deva
formian taskmaster, formian winged warrior, soulspark
achaierai, barghest, bearded devil, green abishai, gulthir, haraknin, kocrachon, steel devil, tsucora quori



7 HD
djinni, ghirrash, lillend
ghirrash, red slaad
babau, ghirrash, kyoso no oni, uridezu
avoral
adult arrowhawk, adult tojanida, average xorn, sillit
corruptor of fate
--
mercane, qorrashi
blue abishai, marrash, narzugon, orthon, rakshasa, zakya rakshasa



8 HD
asura, firre
blue slaad, chaos beast, greater soulspark, khayal, trilloch
ashi no oni, broodswarm, palrethee, vulvitor, windscythe
greater soulspark, lupinal
dusk beast, ferrumach, Midgard dwarf
dao, demonhive queen, echinoloth, greater soulspark, night hag, soul eater
Arcadian avenger, warden archon
formian armadon, greater soulspark, unraveler
chain devil, desert devil, hasalaq quori, hellcat, maelephant, pain devil, red abishai, stitched devil



9 HD
bariaur defender of Ysgard
green slaad, nishruu
armanite, average salamander, cerebrilith, chasme, draegloth overseer, ugulu no oni
moon dog
sunfly swarm
average salamander, naityan rakshasa, piscoloth
couatl, sibyllic guardian
formian observer
amnizu, average salamander, erinyes, greater barghest, harvester devil



10 HD
ghaele, monadic deva, ursinal
gray slaad
abyssal drake, arrow demon, bulezau, dybbuk, hezrou, jarilith, kamu no oni, shadow demon, vrock, yochlol, zovvut
monadic deva
doc cu'o'c, ecalypse
marraenoloth, mezzoloth, shadurakul, vaporighu, yagnoloth
hammer archon, justic archon champion, monadic deva, owl archon, word archon
lumi crusader
bone devil, du'ulora quori, efreeti



11 HD
--
marid, valkyrie
alkilith, gekido no oni, solamith
--
--
farastu, khumat
sword archon
--
naztharune rakshasa



12 HD
astral deva, shiradi
--
akuma no oni, bebilith, blood fiend, ghour, glabrezu, kelvezu, rukarazyll, whisper demon
astral deva, leonal
cuprilach, glimmerskin, steel predator
arcanaloth, corrupter of fate assassin
astral deva, shirokinu-katsukami, trumpet archon
formian myrmarch
astral stalker, barbed devil, Nessian warhound, pleasure devil



13 HD
--
--
adaru, byoki no oni, draegloth favored one
--
aoa sphere
kelubar
--
--
ayperobos swarm, ember guard, thaskor



14 HD
planetar
--
draudnu, lilitu, nalfeshnee, yattoko no oni
planetar
--
nycaloth
planetar, throne archon
--
assassin devil, ice devil



15 HD
--
death slaad
kastighur, mature nabassu, noble salamander, sibriex, tsuburu no oni, umbral banyan, wastrilith
--
elder arrowhawk, elder tojanida, elder xorn
cauchemar, earth glider, laraken, noble salamander, shator, umbral banyan, voor dreadful lasher
--
--
horned devil, logokron devil, noble salamander, umbral banyan, xerfilstyx



16 HD
--
--
ethereal slayer, marilith, phantasmal slayer
--
aurumach
--
--
--
malebranche, scyllan



17 HD
--
--
--
--
--
--
hound archon hero
justicator
ak'chazar rakshasa



18 HD
tulani
--
abyssal greater basilisk, myrmyxicus, sorrowsworn demon
--
astral dreadnought
ultroloth
--
--
kalaraq quori, paeliryon, pit fiend, remmanon



19 HD
--
--
molydeus
--
concordant killer
--
--
--
--



20 HD
titan
titan
balor, klurichir, marruspawn abomination, titan
--
--
daelkyr, marruspawn abomination
--
formian queen
marruspawn abomination


[/QUOTE]

Loek
2014-05-22, 01:28 PM
Oh, me likes.

I think I'd have gone with less spells (not gaining the specialism extra slot for example...) but this probably works as well.

I think I'd like to know what happens when you fail (besides the damage and dismissal) does this have any effect on subsequent attempts? Do you get the same creature? or even the same type of creature?

Also, a must succeed, no take 10/20 DC 20 skill check at level 1 is... kind of harsh... especially since it's the classes "main focus".

Finally, I don't really like the xp cost for summoning your bonded summon... xp micro management is never fun, but having your main focus/bread and butter costing bits and pieces of your xp... meh. (Personally, I think I'd do something along the line of having your partner giving you a "must complete" quest every X (6?) levels... maybe even getting a no-save geas if you refuse to help... as the price of summoning/bonding instead).

Expanded summoning (and it's original issue "summoning restriction") both feel iffy... Generally you can't do so anyhow or you have playing with fire rules and can go for effects in that fashion. (and again, still not liking the xp cost for summoning...)

Empowered companion sounds interesting, but getting the whole truck load at level 20... I'd rather see it increase over the levels I think.


In general terms, cool class, but quite some details I'd feel like kicking at before using it.


ps: Also... the once per day on your bonded summon... as annoying as the same limit on calling your paladin horse... maybe make it something along the line of "for a total of X hours, divided in as many uses (1 hour minimum) as you see fit" or some such.

WebTiefling
2014-05-22, 03:10 PM
Oh, me likes.

I think I'd have gone with less spells (not gaining the specialism extra slot for example...) but this probably works as well.

I think I'd like to know what happens when you fail (besides the damage and dismissal) does this have any effect on subsequent attempts? Do you get the same creature? or even the same type of creature?

Also, a must succeed, no take 10/20 DC 20 skill check at level 1 is... kind of harsh... especially since it's the classes "main focus".

Finally, I don't really like the xp cost for summoning your bonded summon... xp micro management is never fun, but having your main focus/bread and butter costing bits and pieces of your xp... meh. (Personally, I think I'd do something along the line of having your partner giving you a "must complete" quest every X (6?) levels... maybe even getting a no-save geas if you refuse to help... as the price of summoning/bonding instead).

Expanded summoning (and it's original issue "summoning restriction") both feel iffy... Generally you can't do so anyhow or you have playing with fire rules and can go for effects in that fashion. (and again, still not liking the xp cost for summoning...)

Empowered companion sounds interesting, but getting the whole truck load at level 20... I'd rather see it increase over the levels I think.

In general terms, cool class, but quite some details I'd feel like kicking at before using it.

ps: Also... the once per day on your bonded summon... as annoying as the same limit on calling your paladin horse... maybe make it something along the line of "for a total of X hours, divided in as many uses (1 hour minimum) as you see fit" or some such.

Good point on the initial skill check. I wanted to have something along the lines of a Binder's poor binding, but ... yeah, a one-time thing isn't worth it. It would mostly be ignored by just assuming it was succeeded before the game starts. Taking it out.

The XP cost was to have a solid, non-fluff aspect of the bond - the summoner is giving his life force to the bonded being in exchange for power. Typical Faustian-style pact. (though potentially with good beings too) The "quest every X levels" would most likely be ignored, and I don't want to stick something in that will just be ignored.

I agree that XP micro-management isn't fun. How about in order to advance to the next level, you must gain an extra level*10 XP. Upon gaining the level, the XP is lost. That certainly has a lot less micro-managing, but still has a cost.

Taking out the Expanded Summoning too. Good points. I'll spread some of the Empowered Companion stuff over to where the Expanded Summoning stuff was.

I'm leaving in the once per day summoning because it starts getting a bit complicated when you have a summoning that can last for more than a single day - chop that summoning up in chunks, but if it would normally last for 48 hours, does dismissing it and calling it on hour 30 count toward the free dismissal/recall from the first calling or does it count toward the new day's time? I could precisely define it, but I think it would turn into a bit of a wall of text to specify everything.

Anachronity
2014-05-22, 04:06 PM
There is already a prestige class from the miniatures handbook called 'bonded summoner', although it's pretty bad.

Either way, this seems more like a prestige class than a base class to me.

EDIT: there's also the 'summoner' class from Pathfinder

Angelalex242
2014-05-24, 05:20 AM
Just occurred to me that for good summoners, this generally caps out at Planetar at level 14.

Unless you're chaotic good, in which case you get a Tulani at level 18.

The mighty Solar, however, has 22 hit dice, and so you can't get one till epic level.

With that in mind, it might be nice if the celestial had your HD +2, so a 20th level good aligned summoner can bond with the mighty Solar.

Or else make a feat to that effect.

This class gets VERY powerful in epic levels, when you can bond yourself to, say, Zaphkiel, Talisid, or Queen Morwel.

LN Summoners can get a queen Formian at level 20.

Chaotic anything summoners can take a Titan at level 20.

The Mighty Balor also caps at level 20.

You can get a Pit Fiend early, at level 18.

Mousedigits
2014-05-26, 12:35 AM
Looks intersting, but I have two major qualms:

-I think it needs a few more class features. That's something I thought 3.5 lacked, was that many classes had very few class features.
-The Bonded Summons ability feels very... Restricted. This is added on to the fack that if there isn't an outsider with the same hit dice and alignment available, you lose your most powerful asset. Take a look at the Pathfinder Summoner's (http://paizo.com/prd/advanced/baseClasses/summoner.html) Eidolon, it's much more versetile.

Zale
2014-05-26, 02:21 AM
Looks intersting, but I have two major qualms:

-I think it needs a few more class features. That's something I thought 3.5 lacked, was that many classes had very few class features.
-The Bonded Summons ability feels very... Restricted. This is added on to the fack that if there isn't an outsider with the same hit dice and alignment available, you lose your most powerful asset. Take a look at the Pathfinder Summoner's (http://paizo.com/prd/advanced/baseClasses/summoner.html) Eidolon, it's much more versetile.

They still have all the goodies of a normal wizard, really. That and a free minion.

Mousedigits
2014-05-26, 02:48 AM
They still have all the goodies of a normal wizard, really. That and a free minion.

Well, good point. Yeah, I guess that makes up for the lack of class abilities. However, I still feel that the free companion is a bit restrictive. But, this is just my 2 cents.

WebTiefling
2014-05-27, 12:23 PM
There is already a prestige class from the miniatures handbook called 'bonded summoner', although it's pretty bad.

Either way, this seems more like a prestige class than a base class to me.

EDIT: there's also the 'summoner' class from Pathfinder

I'll try to find a better name than "Bonded Summoner" since that one is already taken. Suggestions?

I'm not familiar with Pathfinder, but I'll take a look at their Summoner class to see what they have for that class.


Just occurred to me that for good summoners, this generally caps out at Planetar at level 14.

Unless you're chaotic good, in which case you get a Tulani at level 18.

The mighty Solar, however, has 22 hit dice, and so you can't get one till epic level.

With that in mind, it might be nice if the celestial had your HD +2, so a 20th level good aligned summoner can bond with the mighty Solar.

Or else make a feat to that effect.

This class gets VERY powerful in epic levels, when you can bond yourself to, say, Zaphkiel, Talisid, or Queen Morwel.

LN Summoners can get a queen Formian at level 20.

Chaotic anything summoners can take a Titan at level 20.

The Mighty Balor also caps at level 20.

You can get a Pit Fiend early, at level 18.

I purposefully avoided giving it the ability to get a Solar pre-epic since I didn't want to be an enabler in the Wish-abuse world. I know, I know - a Zodar comes along at level 16, but that's only one per year. Hopefully a DM can deal with that.

I think there are more options for the non-Good summoners, but that's the case with almost everything - D&D is oriented toward fighting evil and so there are lots more evil creatures listed. The Throne Archon (14 HD) is good with tons of SLAs, and the Planetar (14 HD) is probably your best bet.


Looks intersting, but I have two major qualms:

-I think it needs a few more class features. That's something I thought 3.5 lacked, was that many classes had very few class features.
-The Bonded Summons ability feels very... Restricted. This is added on to the fack that if there isn't an outsider with the same hit dice and alignment available, you lose your most powerful asset. Take a look at the Pathfinder Summoner's (http://paizo.com/prd/advanced/baseClasses/summoner.html) Eidolon, it's much more versetile.

It doesn't have many class features outside the Companion, but that's a heck of a feature. You're dropping an extra spell per spell level and the familiar, but on the whole it is pretty strong, sort of like Leadership is strong. I couldn't add in any more features in good conscience. :smallsmile:

If you have some suggestions, though, that wouldn't crank up the power even more, I'd be glad to hear them!

I just finished checking, and I think that all the different alignments have an outsider available to them at level 1.

LG: Lantern Archon
LN,LE: Bladeling
Chaotic Anything: Chaond
Neutral Anything: Ether Scarab
And there are other choices.

The text talking about not having a Companion was to allow for someone who had a particular one in mind and didn't want to use one of the options, opting to wait for a particular Companion. For example, someone who wanted to have a Musteval Guardinal (2HD) but didn't want to start with any of the 1HD options.

WebTiefling
2014-05-27, 02:29 PM
There, I've added in some further aspects for levels 6, 10, 14, and 18. For the most part they are pretty minor, though the level 18 improvement can be significant, though if you really crank up the preparations for a calling, an extra +4 is mostly icing on the cake. :smallwink:

Still, who doesn't want to make that opposed Charisma check a bit easier and have slightly stronger beings from your Callings?!

p.s. Still working on a better name for the class since Bonded Summoner is taken already. Bargain Summoner? Blegh. Pact Summoner? Not bad. Life Pact Summoner? Again, not bad.

None of my ideas are striking my imagination, though. Help please!

Angelalex242
2014-05-29, 05:38 PM
Well, the Planetar admittedly DOES let you cast as a 17th level cleric at level 14, so it's a very nice thing for good summoners to have. Need True Res? Planetar's got you covered. Gate? Yep. Miracle? No problem.

But...there is one other benefit you could include from the bonded creature:

Your stats are yours or the bonded creature's -4, whichever is higher.

Then, at level 5, it's -3, whichever is higher, then, level 10, -2, whichever is higher. 15, -1, 20. 0

Outsiders tend to have killer stats, so as this ability grows, it creates certain minimums in what would ordinarily be dumpstats for a character.

Zale
2014-05-29, 06:37 PM
So, what are you balancing for with this class?

Dracomortis
2014-05-29, 09:46 PM
I have created a table showing every outsider available based on alignment and Hit Dice. Note that outsiders with a listed alignment of "Always neutral" have been included only under the True Neutral column, as it is often unclear whether the designers intended for the monster's alignment to be "Always true neutral" or "Always neutral (any)". (As far as I am aware, no monster has ever had an alignment of "neutral (any)", which is why I assume the former to be true.)

The table currently includes all outsiders from the following books: Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, Complete Psionic, Deities & Demigods, Draconomicon, Drow of the Underdark, Eberron Campaign Setting, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Fiend Folio, Fiendish Codex I, Fiendish Codex II, Frostburn, Ghostwalk, Heroes of Horror, Magic of Incarnum, Manual of the Planes, Miniatures Handbook, Monster Manual, Monster Manual II, Monster Manual III, Monster Manual IV, Monster Manual V, Monsters of Faerun, Oriental Adventures, Planar Handbook, Races of Stone, Sandstorm, Secrets of Sarlona, Serpent Kingdoms, Shining South, Stormwrack, Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, Underdark.




Chaotic Good
Chaotic Neutral
Chaotic Evil
Neutral Good
Neutral
Neutral Evil
Lawful Good
Lawful Neutral
Lawful Evil



1 HD
aasimar, chaond
chaond
chaond, mane, fey'ri, tiefling, wispling
aasimar
air genasi, earth genasi, ether scarab, fire genasi, least spirit centipede, shyft, varoot, water genasi
tiefling, vargouille, wispling
aasimar, bladeling, lantern archon, zenythri
bladeling, formian worker, mechanatrix, zenythri
bladeling, kalabon, maeluth, tiefling, wispling, zenythri



2 HD
coure, musteval, protectar
bacchae, least soulspark
abyssal maw, abyssal skulker, dretch, lizard king/queen, windrazor
least soulspark, protectar, stone child
--
kaorti, least soulspark
protectar
azer, least soulspark, lumi
filth imp, lemure, nupperibo



3 HD
bariaur
--
abyssal ravager, baphitaur, carnage demon, quasit, vorr
triton
air mephit, aoa droplet, dust mephit, earth mephit, fire mephit, glass mephit, ice mephit, juvenile arrowhawk, juvenile tojanida, kalareem, lesser spirit centipede, magma mephit, minor xorn, ooze mephit, ravid, salt mephit, steam mephit, sulfur mephit, sylph, water mephit
demonet swarm, demonhive attendant, yeth hound
--
--
imp, legion devil, spined devil



4 HD
--
lesser soulspark
flamebrother salamander, gadacro, guecubu, haino no oni, jovoc, nashrou, skulvyn, wrackspawn
cervidal, lesser soulspark
keeper, rast
flamebrother salamander, lesser soulspark, shadow mastiff, skeroloth
ramadeen
formian warrior, lesser soulspark
advespa, bloodbag imp, euphoric imp, flamebrother salamander, hellhound, white abishai



5 HD
--
--
artaaglith, juvenile nabassu, maurezhi, rutterkin, shikibu no oni, tanarukk
--
greater spirit centipede, xac-yel, xac-yij, xag-ya, xap-yaup, xeg-yi, xong-yong
voor
dwarf ancestor
visilight
black abishai, durzagon, rejkar, reth dekala, xill



6 HD
bralani, movanic deva
mud slaad, soulspark
bar-lgura, draegloth, ekolid, howler, minion of Set, myrlochar, sanru no oni, succubus
equinal, hollyphant, movanic deva, soulspark
janni
canoloth, lesser nightmare, nightmare, shadow eft, soulspark, vaath
hound archon, justice archon, movanic deva
formian taskmaster, formian winged warrior, soulspark
achaierai, barghest, bearded devil, green abishai, gulthir, haraknin, kocrachon, steel devil, tsucora quori



7 HD
djinni, ghirrash, lillend
ghirrash, red slaad
babau, ghirrash, kyoso no oni, uridezu
avoral
adult arrowhawk, adult tojanida, average xorn, sillit
corruptor of fate
--
mercane, qorrashi
blue abishai, marrash, narzugon, orthon, rakshasa, zakya rakshasa



8 HD
asura, firre
blue slaad, chaos beast, greater soulspark, khayal, trilloch
ashi no oni, broodswarm, palrethee, vulvitor, windscythe
greater soulspark, lupinal
dusk beast, ferrumach, Midgard dwarf
dao, demonhive queen, echinoloth, greater soulspark, night hag, soul eater
Arcadian avenger, warden archon
formian armadon, greater soulspark, unraveler
chain devil, desert devil, hasalaq quori, hellcat, maelephant, pain devil, red abishai, stitched devil



9 HD
bariaur defender of Ysgard
green slaad, nishruu
armanite, average salamander, cerebrilith, chasme, draegloth overseer, ugulu no oni
moon dog
sunfly swarm
average salamander, naityan rakshasa, piscoloth
couatl, sibyllic guardian
formian observer
amnizu, average salamander, erinyes, greater barghest, harvester devil



10 HD
ghaele, monadic deva, ursinal
gray slaad
abyssal drake, arrow demon, bulezau, dybbuk, hezrou, jarilith, kamu no oni, shadow demon, vrock, yochlol, zovvut
monadic deva
doc cu'o'c, ecalypse
marraenoloth, mezzoloth, shadurakul, vaporighu, yagnoloth
hammer archon, justic archon champion, monadic deva, owl archon, word archon
lumi crusader
bone devil, du'ulora quori, efreeti



11 HD
--
marid, valkyrie
alkilith, gekido no oni, solamith
--
--
farastu, khumat
sword archon
--
naztharune rakshasa



12 HD
astral deva, shiradi
--
akuma no oni, bebilith, blood fiend, ghour, glabrezu, kelvezu, rukarazyll, whisper demon
astral deva, leonal
cuprilach, glimmerskin, steel predator
arcanaloth, corrupter of fate assassin
astral deva, shirokinu-katsukami, trumpet archon
formian myrmarch
astral stalker, barbed devil, Nessian warhound, pleasure devil



13 HD
--
--
adaru, byoki no oni, draegloth favored one
--
aoa sphere
kelubar
--
--
ayperobos swarm, ember guard, thaskor



14 HD
planetar
--
draudnu, lilitu, nalfeshnee, yattoko no oni
planetar
--
nycaloth
planetar, throne archon
--
assassin devil, ice devil



15 HD
--
death slaad
kastighur, mature nabassu, noble salamander, sibriex, tsuburu no oni, umbral banyan, wastrilith
--
elder arrowhawk, elder tojanida, elder xorn
cauchemar, earth glider, laraken, noble salamander, shator, umbral banyan, voor dreadful lasher
--
--
horned devil, logokron devil, noble salamander, umbral banyan, xerfilstyx



16 HD
--
--
ethereal slayer, marilith, phantasmal slayer
--
aurumach
--
--
--
malebranche, scyllan



17 HD
--
--
--
--
--
--
hound archon hero
justicator
ak'chazar rakshasa



18 HD
tulani
--
abyssal greater basilisk, myrmyxicus, sorrowsworn demon
--
astral dreadnought
ultroloth
--
--
kalaraq quori, paeliryon, pit fiend, remmanon



19 HD
--
--
molydeus
--
concordant killer
--
--
--
--



20 HD
titan
titan
balor, klurichir, marruspawn abomination, titan
--
--
daelkyr, marruspawn abomination
--
formian queen
marruspawn abomination

Angelalex242
2014-05-29, 10:16 PM
More Celestials! (Book of Exalted Deeds)

Archons:
Owl Archon:10 HD
Sword Archon:11 HD
Throne Archon:14 HD
Warden Archon:8 HD
(All LG)

Asura 8 HD (CG)
Bariaur 3 HD (CG)
Bariaur Defender 9 HD (CG)

Eladrin:
Coure:2 HD
Firre: 8 HD
Shiradi: 12 HD
Tulani: 18 HD
(All CG)

Guardinals:
Equinal: 6 HD
Musteval: 2 HD
Ursinal: 10 HD
(All NG)

Hollyphant 6 HD (NG)
Moon Dog 9 HD (NG)

In other news...
I wonder if Nale (OOTS) was one of these, with Sabine as his bonded outsider...she was VERY unusually loyal to him for a chaotic evil being.

Dracomortis
2014-05-30, 12:05 AM
More Celestials! (Book of Exalted Deeds)

Archons:
Owl Archon:10 HD
Sword Archon:11 HD
Throne Archon:14 HD
Warden Archon:8 HD
(All LG)

Asura 8 HD (CG)
Bariaur 3 HD (CG)
Bariaur Defender 9 HD (CG)

Eladrin:
Coure:2 HD
Firre: 8 HD
Shiradi: 12 HD
Tulani: 18 HD
(All CG)

Guardinals:
Equinal: 6 HD
Musteval: 2 HD
Ursinal: 10 HD
(All NG)

Hollyphant 6 HD (NG)
Moon Dog 9 HD (NG)

In other news...
I wonder if Nale (OOTS) was one of these, with Sabine as his bonded outsider...she was VERY unusually loyal to him for a chaotic evil being.

Added all of the above, plus all outsiders from the following books: Book of Vile Darkness, Complete Psionic, Deities & Demigods, Draconomicon, Drow of the Underdark, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Fiendish Codex I & II, Frostburn, Ghostwalk, Heroes of Horror, Magic of Incarnum, Manual of the Planes, Miniatures Handbook, Oriental Adventures, Planar Handbook, Races of Stone, Sandstorm, Stormwrack, Tome of Battle, and Tome of Magic.

WebTiefling
2014-05-30, 10:32 AM
But...there is one other benefit you could include from the bonded creature:

Your stats are yours or the bonded creature's -4, whichever is higher.

Then, at level 5, it's -3, whichever is higher, then, level 10, -2, whichever is higher. 15, -1, 20. 0

Outsiders tend to have killer stats, so as this ability grows, it creates certain minimums in what would ordinarily be dumpstats for a character.
That is a pretty brilliant idea! I would need to take something out to balance that in, though. I'll cogitate on that for a bit and see what I can work out. That's ... that's pretty powerful. You get to LG 14th level and your stats are all through the roof. I love the idea, but wow that's powerful.


So, what are you balancing for with this class?
Trying to get a flavor of the Faustian pact but with solid crunch and for all alignments. I'm not entirely happy with the cost yet - tossing out the familiar, the extra spell per level from specializing, and the extra XP to gain levels still feels weak for the power gained. Why wouldn't a Conjurer take this?


I have created a table showing every outsider available based on alignment and Hit Dice. Note that outsiders with a listed alignment of "Always neutral" have been included only under the True Neutral column, as it is often unclear whether the designers intended for the monster's alignment to be "Always true neutral" or "Always neutral (any)". (As far as I am aware, no monster has ever had an alignment of "neutral (any)", which is why I assume the former to be true.)

The table currently includes all outsiders from the following books: Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, Complete Psionic, Deities & Demigods, Draconomicon, Drow of the Underdark, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Fiend Folio, Fiendish Codex I, Fiendish Codex II, Frostburn, Ghostwalk, Heroes of Horror, Magic of Incarnum, Manual of the Planes, Monster Manual, Monster Manual II, Monster Manual III, Monster Manual IV, Monster Manual V, Miniatures Handbook, Oriental Adventures, Planar Handbook, Races of Stone, Sandstorm, Stormwrack, Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic.




Chaotic Good
Chaotic Neutral
Chaotic Evil
Neutral Good
Neutral
Neutral Evil
Lawful Good
Lawful Neutral
Lawful Evil



1 HD
aasimar, chaond
chaond
chaond, mane, tiefling, wispling
aasimar
ether scarab, least spirit centipede, shyft, varoot
tiefling, vargouille, wispling
aasimar, bladeling, lantern archon, zenythri
bladeling, formian worker, mechanatrix, zenythri
bladeling, kalabon, maeluth, tiefling, wispling, zenythri



2 HD
coure, musteval, protectar
bacchae, least soulspark
abyssal maw, abyssal skulker, dretch, windrazor
least soulspark, protectar, stone child
--
kaorti, least soulspark
protectar
azer, least soulspark, lumi
filth imp, lemure, nupperibo



3 HD
bariaur
--
abyssal ravager, carnage demon, quasit, vorr
triton
air mephit, aoa droplet, dust mephit, earth mephit, fire mephit, glass mephit, ice mephit, juvenile arrowhawk, juvenile tojanida, kalareem, lesser spirit centipede, magma mephit, minor xorn, ooze mephit, ravid, salt mephit, steam mephit, sulfur mephit, sylph, water mephit
demonet swarm, demonhive attendant, yeth hound
--
--
imp, legion devil, spined devil



4 HD
--
lesser soulspark
flamebrother salamander, gadacro, guecubu, haino no oni, jovoc, nashrou, skulvyn, wrackspawn
cervidal, lesser soulspark
keeper, rast
flamebrother salamander, lesser soulspark, shadow mastiff, skeroloth
ramadeen
formian warrior, lesser soulspark
advespa, bloodbag imp, euphoric imp, flamebrother salamander, hellhound, white abishai



5 HD
--
--
artaaglith, juvenile nabassu, maurezhi, rutterkin, shikibu no oni
--
greater spirit centipede, xac-yel, xac-yij, xag-ya, xap-yaup, xeg-yi, xong-yong
voor
dwarf ancestor
visilight
black abishai, durzagon, rejkar, reth dekala, xill



6 HD
bralani, movanic deva
mud slaad, soulspark
bar-lgura, draegloth, ekolid, howler, minion of Set, sanru no oni, succubus
equinal, hollyphant, movanic deva, soulspark
janni
canoloth, lesser nightmare, nightmare, shadow eft, soulspark, vaath
hound archon, justice archon, movanic deva
formian taskmaster, formian winged warrior, soulspark
achaierai, barghest, bearded devil, green abishai, gulthir, haraknin, kocrachon, steel devil



7 HD
djinni, ghirrash, lillend
ghirrash, red slaad
babau, ghirrash, kyoso no oni, uridezu
avoral
adult arrowhawk, adult tojanida, average xorn, sillit
corruptor of fate
--
mercane, qorrashi
blue abishai, marrash, narzugon, orthon, rakshasa



8 HD
asura, firre
blue slaad, chaos beast, greater soulspark, khayal, trilloch
ashi no oni, broodswarm, palrethee, vulvitor, windscythe
greater soulspark, lupinal
dusk beast, ferrumach, Midgard dwarf
dao, demonhive queen, echinoloth, greater soulspark, night hag, soul eater
Arcadian avenger, warden archon
formian armadon, greater soulspark, unraveler
chain devil, desert devil, hellcat, maelephant, pain devil, red abishai, stitched devil



9 HD
bariaur defender of Ysgard
green slaad
armanite, average salamander, cerebrilith, chasme, draegloth overseer, ugulu no oni
moon dog
sunfly swarm
average salamander, naityan rakshasa, piscoloth
couatl, sibyllic guardian
formian observer
amnizu, average salamander, erinyes, greater barghest, harvester devil



10 HD
ghaele, monadic deva, ursinal
gray slaad
abyssal drake, arrow demon, bulezau, dybbuk, hezrou, jarilith, kamu no oni, shadow demon, vrock, yochlol, zovvut
monadic deva
doc cu'o'c, ecalypse
marraenoloth, mezzoloth, shadurakul, vaporighu, yagnoloth
hammer archon, justic archon champion, monadic deva, owl archon, word archon
lumi crusader
bone devil, efreeti



11 HD
--
marid, valkyrie
alkilith, gekido no oni, solamith
--
--
farastu, khumat
sword archon
--
naztharune rakshasa



12 HD
astral deva, shiradi
--
akuma no oni, bebilith, blood fiend, glabrezu, kelvezu, rukarazyll, whisper demon
astral deva, leonal
cuprilach, glimmerskin, steel predator
arcanaloth, corrupter of fate assassin
astral deva, shirokinu-katsukami, trumpet archon
formian myrmarch
astral stalker, barbed devil, Nessian warhound, pleasure devil



13 HD
--
--
adaru, byoki no oni, draegloth favored one
--
aoa sphere
kelubar
--
--
ayperobos swarm, ember guard, thaskor



14 HD
planetar
--
draudnu, lilitu, nalfeshnee, yattoko no oni
planetar
--
nycaloth
planetar, throne archon
--
assassin devil, ice devil



15 HD
--
death slaad
kastighur, mature nabassu, noble salamander, sibriex, tsuburu no oni, umbral banyan, wastrilith
--
elder arrowhawk, elder tojanida, elder xorn
cauchemar, noble salamander, shator, umbral banyan, voor dreadful lasher
--
--
horned devil, logokron devil, noble salamander, umbral banyan, xerfilstyx



16 HD
--
--
ethereal slayer, marilith, phantasmal slayer
--
aurumach
--
--
--
LE malebranche, scyllan



17 HD
--
--
--
--
--
--
hound archon hero
justicator
ak'chazar rakshasa



18 HD
tulani
--
abyssal greater basilisk, myrmyxicus, sorrowsworn demon
--
astral dreadnought
ultroloth
--
--
paeliryon, pit fiend, remmanon



19 HD
--
--
molydeus
--
concordant killer
--
--
--
--



20 HD
titan
titan
balor, klurichir, marruspawn abomination, titan
--
--
marruspawn abomination
--
formian queen
marruspawn abomination



That's just amazing! You just made this thread 100% more awesome Dracomortis! I'm going to put this up in the main post (with full attribution to you and Angelalex242!)


More Celestials! (Book of Exalted Deeds)

Archons:
Owl Archon:10 HD
Sword Archon:11 HD
Throne Archon:14 HD
Warden Archon:8 HD
(All LG)

Asura 8 HD (CG)
Bariaur 3 HD (CG)
Bariaur Defender 9 HD (CG)

Eladrin:
Coure:2 HD
Firre: 8 HD
Shiradi: 12 HD
Tulani: 18 HD
(All CG)

Guardinals:
Equinal: 6 HD
Musteval: 2 HD
Ursinal: 10 HD
(All NG)

Hollyphant 6 HD (NG)
Moon Dog 9 HD (NG)
In other news...
I wonder if Nale (OOTS) was one of these, with Sabine as his bonded outsider...she was VERY unusually loyal to him for a chaotic evil being.
You are da' bomb! That's just an amazing compilation guys!

Official announcement! Dracomortis and Angelalex242 are hereby awarded 1 Internet!

Nale - I can't wait to see him come back, 'cuz you know he is! That, or I want to see him scheming away in Hell.

WebTiefling
2014-05-30, 11:11 AM
After looking at it a bit, I bumped up the XP cost per level. It now totals up to just over 10,000 XP over the course of 20 levels. This seems like a lot, but considering that you're getting a type of Leadership plus other goodies, I don't think it's too much of a cost.

Especially, considering that for part of the adventuring the Lifebond Summoner will be a level lower than the others and thus earn a bit more XP, the player should catch up a decent chunk of that.

For example, if most of the party has just reached level 19 and the Lifebond Summoner is still at level 18, and if they face a singel CR 19 enemy, the Lifebond Summoner will gain 600 more XP than the others in the party.

If this happens once at each level, 2-19, the Lifebond Summoner will gain almost 5700 XP in extra XP due to that lower level. If it happens more than once per level or if there is a larger challenge face when they're a level different, the gap will close even more. I don't think the Lifebond Summoner will be a level lower than the rest of the party for more than one or two encounters most of the time.

Thoughts? How is my reasoning here?

Mousedigits
2014-05-30, 02:55 PM
Now that I look at it a bit more, with help from the tables, it's not as restrictive as I thought. However, I think that the summoner should, upon getting an empty level (one without an available outsider) they should be able to retain the one they still had, or any one of a lower level, for that manner. Again, just my two copper pieces :smallsmile:

WebTiefling
2014-05-30, 03:20 PM
On gaining an empty level, their outsider companion still exists and will gain a Hit Die with the attendant benefits.

I'll try re-phrasing that portion. I didn't say that very well, did I?

Mousedigits
2014-05-30, 06:27 PM
Yeah, this is what got me:


If an outsider of the appropriate HD and alignment is not available, the Lifebond Summoner must do without a Bonded Companion until he reaches a level at which the appropriate outsider is available.

Zale
2014-05-30, 08:51 PM
Well, the primary reason I asked is because this is a class based on the Wizard (One of the most powerful classes in the game) focusing on Conjuration (One of the most powerful schools of magic) with the benefit of a free cohort (Leadership being one of the most powerful feats in the game), and it doesn't really seem to lose anything. A small loss of exp doesn't really affect much, as that just means they gain experience faster for being slightly below level.

Not to mention some of the cohort options (Based on the 17th level cleric casting at level 14 comment), are probably poorly balanced for player use.

But, hey, if you meant to make a really powerful class, then that's exactly what you did.

WebTiefling
2014-06-02, 09:42 AM
Well, the primary reason I asked is because this is a class based on the Wizard (One of the most powerful classes in the game) focusing on Conjuration (One of the most powerful schools of magic) with the benefit of a free cohort (Leadership being one of the most powerful feats in the game), and it doesn't really seem to lose anything. A small loss of exp doesn't really affect much, as that just means they gain experience faster for being slightly below level.

Not to mention some of the cohort options (Based on the 17th level cleric casting at level 14 comment), are probably poorly balanced for player use.

But, hey, if you meant to make a really powerful class, then that's exactly what you did.

The other losses are the familiar and the bonus spell per spell level a specialist caster gains. The loss of the familiar rules out some of the Alternate Class Features that trade the Familiar - I'm thinking of the Immediate Magic for Conjurers that lets them take a 10' teleport as an immediate action - extremely powerful, and that isn't available any more.

Except for LG players, the Companion isn't as good as full Leadership since you can't customize your Companion and you can't gain other followers.

I don't want to have it be something that people consider to be "Why Wouldn't You Take This!?" I'm also trying to not nerf it to the point where no one would want to take it.

It's a class that lends itself toward taking a whole bunch of levels to get your Companion to be as powerful as possible. The earliest jumping point I can see is maybe level 14 for a LG character.

I'll see what other adjustments might make sense. I'm thinking lowering the CL of all other schools of magic by 1.

andreichekov
2014-06-02, 12:21 PM
Leadership should not stack with your bond guy thing.

This class is ridiculously op. A wizard and then some? Wizards are already the best.

WebTiefling
2014-06-02, 12:38 PM
Leadership should not stack with your bond guy thing.

This class is ridiculously op. A wizard and then some? Wizards are already the best.

Read a bit more carefully.


The Outsider functions as a cohort (the Leadership Feat can be taken but cannot gain a cohort - the bond between Summoner and Companion is too exclusive)

If you take the Leadership, you don't gain a Cohort at all - there's nothing to "stack" with the Companion. You can take the Feat and gain the followers, but that's it.

I'll edit it to make this more clear. I thought it was obviously stated, but I guess not.

edit: There, does this make it sufficiently clear?

The Outsider functions as a cohort (the Leadership Feat can be taken but cannot gain a cohort - the bond between Summoner and Companion is too exclusive. Any capability to gain a cohort, animal companion, familiar, or other similar companion simply fails)

Angelalex242
2014-06-02, 07:58 PM
Alternatively:

The leadership adds 2 HD to the strength of your outsider.

(And good summoners rejoice as they finally overpower evil ones outright.)

WebTiefling
2014-06-03, 11:22 AM
Hmm, that's not a bad idea either. That 1/day Wish still makes me wince as a DM. Granted, you aren't getting it until 20th level, but still ..... *shudder* :smallbiggrin:

Dracomortis
2014-06-03, 09:19 PM
Updated the chart to include monsters from the following books: Eberron Campaign Setting, Monsters of Faerun, Secrets of Sarlona, Serpent Kingdoms, Shining South, and Underdark. There's a ton of Eberron/Forgotten Realms splatbooks I don't own, but most of them don't have any monsters, so this should now contain the vast majority of appropriate outsiders.




Chaotic Good
Chaotic Neutral
Chaotic Evil
Neutral Good
Neutral
Neutral Evil
Lawful Good
Lawful Neutral
Lawful Evil



1 HD
aasimar, chaond
chaond
chaond, mane, fey'ri, tiefling, wispling
aasimar
air genasi, earth genasi, ether scarab, fire genasi, least spirit centipede, shyft, varoot, water genasi
tiefling, vargouille, wispling
aasimar, bladeling, lantern archon, zenythri
bladeling, formian worker, mechanatrix, zenythri
bladeling, kalabon, maeluth, tiefling, wispling, zenythri



2 HD
coure, musteval, protectar
bacchae, least soulspark
abyssal maw, abyssal skulker, dretch, lizard king/queen, windrazor
least soulspark, protectar, stone child
--
kaorti, least soulspark
protectar
azer, least soulspark, lumi
filth imp, lemure, nupperibo



3 HD
bariaur
--
abyssal ravager, baphitaur, carnage demon, quasit, vorr
triton
air mephit, aoa droplet, dust mephit, earth mephit, fire mephit, glass mephit, ice mephit, juvenile arrowhawk, juvenile tojanida, kalareem, lesser spirit centipede, magma mephit, minor xorn, ooze mephit, ravid, salt mephit, steam mephit, sulfur mephit, sylph, water mephit
demonet swarm, demonhive attendant, yeth hound
--
--
imp, legion devil, spined devil



4 HD
--
lesser soulspark
flamebrother salamander, gadacro, guecubu, haino no oni, jovoc, nashrou, skulvyn, wrackspawn
cervidal, lesser soulspark
keeper, rast
flamebrother salamander, lesser soulspark, shadow mastiff, skeroloth
ramadeen
formian warrior, lesser soulspark
advespa, bloodbag imp, euphoric imp, flamebrother salamander, hellhound, white abishai



5 HD
--
--
artaaglith, juvenile nabassu, maurezhi, rutterkin, shikibu no oni, tanarukk
--
greater spirit centipede, xac-yel, xac-yij, xag-ya, xap-yaup, xeg-yi, xong-yong
voor
dwarf ancestor
visilight
black abishai, durzagon, rejkar, reth dekala, xill



6 HD
bralani, movanic deva
mud slaad, soulspark
bar-lgura, draegloth, ekolid, howler, minion of Set, myrlochar, sanru no oni, succubus
equinal, hollyphant, movanic deva, soulspark
janni
canoloth, lesser nightmare, nightmare, shadow eft, soulspark, vaath
hound archon, justice archon, movanic deva
formian taskmaster, formian winged warrior, soulspark
achaierai, barghest, bearded devil, green abishai, gulthir, haraknin, kocrachon, steel devil, tsucora quori



7 HD
djinni, ghirrash, lillend
ghirrash, red slaad
babau, ghirrash, kyoso no oni, uridezu
avoral
adult arrowhawk, adult tojanida, average xorn, sillit
corruptor of fate
--
mercane, qorrashi
blue abishai, marrash, narzugon, orthon, rakshasa, zakya rakshasa



8 HD
asura, firre
blue slaad, chaos beast, greater soulspark, khayal, trilloch
ashi no oni, broodswarm, palrethee, vulvitor, windscythe
greater soulspark, lupinal
dusk beast, ferrumach, Midgard dwarf
dao, demonhive queen, echinoloth, greater soulspark, night hag, soul eater
Arcadian avenger, warden archon
formian armadon, greater soulspark, unraveler
chain devil, desert devil, hasalaq quori, hellcat, maelephant, pain devil, red abishai, stitched devil



9 HD
bariaur defender of Ysgard
green slaad, nishruu
armanite, average salamander, cerebrilith, chasme, draegloth overseer, ugulu no oni
moon dog
sunfly swarm
average salamander, naityan rakshasa, piscoloth
couatl, sibyllic guardian
formian observer
amnizu, average salamander, erinyes, greater barghest, harvester devil



10 HD
ghaele, monadic deva, ursinal
gray slaad
abyssal drake, arrow demon, bulezau, dybbuk, hezrou, jarilith, kamu no oni, shadow demon, vrock, yochlol, zovvut
monadic deva
doc cu'o'c, ecalypse
marraenoloth, mezzoloth, shadurakul, vaporighu, yagnoloth
hammer archon, justic archon champion, monadic deva, owl archon, word archon
lumi crusader
bone devil, du'ulora quori, efreeti



11 HD
--
marid, valkyrie
alkilith, gekido no oni, solamith
--
--
farastu, khumat
sword archon
--
naztharune rakshasa



12 HD
astral deva, shiradi
--
akuma no oni, bebilith, blood fiend, ghour, glabrezu, kelvezu, rukarazyll, whisper demon
astral deva, leonal
cuprilach, glimmerskin, steel predator
arcanaloth, corrupter of fate assassin
astral deva, shirokinu-katsukami, trumpet archon
formian myrmarch
astral stalker, barbed devil, Nessian warhound, pleasure devil



13 HD
--
--
adaru, byoki no oni, draegloth favored one
--
aoa sphere
kelubar
--
--
ayperobos swarm, ember guard, thaskor



14 HD
planetar
--
draudnu, lilitu, nalfeshnee, yattoko no oni
planetar
--
nycaloth
planetar, throne archon
--
assassin devil, ice devil



15 HD
--
death slaad
kastighur, mature nabassu, noble salamander, sibriex, tsuburu no oni, umbral banyan, wastrilith
--
elder arrowhawk, elder tojanida, elder xorn
cauchemar, earth glider, laraken, noble salamander, shator, umbral banyan, voor dreadful lasher
--
--
horned devil, logokron devil, noble salamander, umbral banyan, xerfilstyx



16 HD
--
--
ethereal slayer, marilith, phantasmal slayer
--
aurumach
--
--
--
malebranche, scyllan



17 HD
--
--
--
--
--
--
hound archon hero
justicator
ak'chazar rakshasa



18 HD
tulani
--
abyssal greater basilisk, myrmyxicus, sorrowsworn demon
--
astral dreadnought
ultroloth
--
--
kalaraq quori, paeliryon, pit fiend, remmanon



19 HD
--
--
molydeus
--
concordant killer
--
--
--
--



20 HD
titan
titan
balor, klurichir, marruspawn abomination, titan
--
--
daelkyr, marruspawn abomination
--
formian queen
marruspawn abomination

WebTiefling
2014-06-04, 02:21 PM
Wow, that's absolutely nuts! I will update the original post, but you guys really need to post this on your own as a resource - that's a phenomenally valuable chart!

Kudos!!

Drrakerr
2014-06-05, 12:30 PM
The only problem I'm seeing is that HD is the only limit. It makes sense at first glance, but HD are not really a good means of determining a creatures combat effectiveness. For example, a 1st Level Fiendish Werewolf Teifling would technically be available to a 1st level Summoner

andreichekov
2014-06-07, 01:22 PM
The only problem I'm seeing is that HD is the only limit. It makes sense at first glance, but HD are not really a good means of determining a creatures combat effectiveness. For example, a 1st Level Fiendish Werewolf Teifling would technically be available to a 1st level Summoner

I completely agree with this one. If it is CR, then that whole problem disappears.

Also, as it is written right now, you could apply a template to make a creature an outsider. So, actually the complete list is every monster.

Doxkid
2014-06-07, 02:29 PM
That depends.

The phrase "Non unique" typically means "standard creature without templates or special changes to statistics", but that is a loose definition derived from the several times it is used in 3.5 and not a term that is separately explained (to my memory).

I think Shapechange is the main precedent for that but Planar Binding and Planar Ally probably possess that phrase too; I can only do so much from my phone so I can't confirm either way at the moment for my RAW argument.

RAI, on the other hand, seems to to have the phrase mean "any monster given as an example of the creature's breed in a book" for both this and Shapechange, but that is merely my conservative appraisal. You might note that this does not help account for creatures with advanced Hit Dice or creatures that have gained class levels or templates, all of which are normally encouraged in world-building.

If you want to take advantage of ambiguity then there is something much simpler you can do with that companion. The class states that the companion's Hit Dice advanced...but now HOW they advance. Since it does not demand you use Outsider Hit Dice you could make your pet take levels in Wizard or even force it to take levels in Summoner to make a ghetto Leadership Chain.

Some creatures even have character classes as their recommended advancement...

andreichekov
2014-06-08, 12:32 AM
That depends.

The phrase "Non unique" typically means "standard creature without templates or special changes to statistics", but that is a loose definition derived from the several times it is used in 3.5 and not a term that is separately explained (to my memory).

I think Shapechange is the main precedent for that but Planar Binding and Planar Ally probably possess that phrase too; I can only do so much from my phone so I can't confirm either way at the moment for my RAW argument.

RAI, on the other hand, seems to to have the phrase mean "any monster given as an example of the creature's breed in a book" for both this and Shapechange, but that is merely my conservative appraisal. You might note that this does not help account for creatures with advanced Hit Dice or creatures that have gained class levels or templates, all of which are normally encouraged in world-building.

If you want to take advantage of ambiguity then there is something much simpler you can do with that companion. The class states that the companion's Hit Dice advanced...but now HOW they advance. Since it does not demand you use Outsider Hit Dice you could make your pet take levels in Wizard or even force it to take levels in Summoner to make a ghetto Leadership Chain.

Some creatures even have character classes as their recommended advancement...

The wording on this totally does allow it. Just like the Druid can wild shape into every creature as soon as they get elemental wildshape. Because the elemental template can be applied to anything...

Zale
2014-06-08, 10:06 PM
The other losses are the familiar and the bonus spell per spell level a specialist caster gains. The loss of the familiar rules out some of the Alternate Class Features that trade the Familiar - I'm thinking of the Immediate Magic for Conjurers that lets them take a 10' teleport as an immediate action - extremely powerful, and that isn't available any more.

Except for LG players, the Companion isn't as good as full Leadership since you can't customize your Companion and you can't gain other followers.

I don't want to have it be something that people consider to be "Why Wouldn't You Take This!?" I'm also trying to not nerf it to the point where no one would want to take it.

It's a class that lends itself toward taking a whole bunch of levels to get your Companion to be as powerful as possible. The earliest jumping point I can see is maybe level 14 for a LG character.

I'll see what other adjustments might make sense. I'm thinking lowering the CL of all other schools of magic by 1.

Right now, I still see no reason not to take this is possible. I mean, a wizard without bonus spells is still effortlessly more powerful than over half of all the other classes, and a cohort is always better than a familiar except in very specific circumstances.

I mean, at level 14 you can get a creature that casts as a level 17 cleric. That is not exactly what I would consider a balanced option, really.

WebTiefling
2014-06-09, 11:29 AM
The only problem I'm seeing is that HD is the only limit. It makes sense at first glance, but HD are not really a good means of determining a creatures combat effectiveness. For example, a 1st Level Fiendish Werewolf Teifling would technically be available to a 1st level Summoner
I think that a werewolf adds in the wolf's 2 HD, so that one wouldn't be available until 3rd level. But yes, the Fiendish/Celestial template would allow everything the way I phrased that. Hmmmm. Do I want to allow that? That would open up weirdness like Fiendish Beholderkin Overseer. :smallconfused:


I completely agree with this one. If it is CR, then that whole problem disappears.

Also, as it is written right now, you could apply a template to make a creature an outsider. So, actually the complete list is every monster.
I'm not a huge fan of CR as a level of power measurement, but it's certainly a lot better than HD. I think I will change the HD to CR. That still gives the Planetar (and its 9th level spells) at level 16 - a level early - but that's certainly a lot less troublesome giving it at level 14. I think that also solves the problems with adding templates - adding the fiendish template will crank the CR up by 0/1/2.

That would also put some inhibitions on just tacking on a template to get any creature as your Companion, but it doesn't completely stop it.


Right now, I still see no reason not to take this is possible. I mean, a wizard without bonus spells is still effortlessly more powerful than over half of all the other classes, and a cohort is always better than a familiar except in very specific circumstances.

I mean, at level 14 you can get a creature that casts as a level 17 cleric. That is not exactly what I would consider a balanced option, really.
Yes, but I'm not necessarily comparing it to other classes - I'm comparing it to other wizards. Yeah, wizards are definitely the top tier sort of thing, so anything based on wizard will be a top-tier sort of class. That's just how WotC built things.

I am changing that HD-based Companion for a CR-based one, so that should remove at least the Planetar exploit. Remember, you have to run straight Lifebond Summoner to get the maximum benefit from it, so no branching off into stuff like Incantatrix or PrCs like it.

So, giving up two schools of magic, a familiar, one spell slot from each level, and the wizard bonus feats in exchanged for a Cohort-like Companion that goes by CR and some Companion/Summoning related powers.

Is this something that people considering playing a wizard would look at and say "Duh, of course you pick the 20th Lifebond Summoner instead of a 20th level wizard-based build!"

Hopefully not.

WebTiefling
2014-06-09, 11:56 AM
Ya' know what? I think I'm going to just rule out templated creatures. It just doesn't make sense.

Starting off with some small thing like an Imp, and promoting him up. Eventually you could have him promoted/changed/whatever into a Fiendish Minotaur? :smallconfused: Huh? And then on to something else later? Errrr, no.

That, and as I was thinking through the possible complications of template stacking and how it would interact with HD/CR - it just got too complicated.

No templates on the Companions.

I also tweaked it so that the Outsider available is based off HD or CR, whichever is higher.

Sinpoder707
2014-06-09, 08:29 PM
Well.. I have to be very honest with you. I personally LOVE this class, but that is just me personally and I don't think you should change anything.

WebTiefling
2014-06-09, 11:30 PM
Hmmm, maybe just no templates that change the type, and once a template is acquired, it must stay. A half-air elemental hound archon shouldn't lose the elemental part of his being just because he adds some more power.

Thank you very much! I'm looking forward to trying it out some time.

Drrakerr
2014-06-09, 11:52 PM
*snip
Ya' know what? I think I'm going to just rule out templated creatures. It just doesn't make sense.

Starting off with some small thing like an Imp, and promoting him up. Eventually you could have him promoted/changed/whatever into a Fiendish Minotaur? :smallconfused: Huh? And then on to something else later? Errrr, no. *snip


When you think about it, it kinda does. It not becoming a normal Minotaur. Fiendish Minotaur are outsiders for a reason, they a native to a demonic plane. They were born with demonic taint in their blood, and are basically Minotaur that have become demons/devils.

And if you go by the higher out of CR or HD, then there is no level 1 option for most of the alignments :smallconfused: I wish I had better a solution for you, but honestly i think you kinda have to allow celestial/fiendish. The only Level one, CR >=1 outsiders (in the OGL SRD that im looking at at least) are Tieflings, Asimar, and Formian Workers.

Dracomortis
2014-06-10, 12:51 AM
And if you go by the higher out of CR or HD, then there is no level 1 option for most of the alignments :smallconfused: I wish I had better a solution for you, but honestly i think you kinda have to allow celestial/fiendish. The only Level one, CR >=1 outsiders (in the OGL SRD that im looking at at least) are Tieflings, Asimar, and Formian Workers.

The only 1st-level options that would be bumped off would be the lantern archon and the vargouille, neither of which are the sole option for their alignment.