Dragon Age 2: Should I bother?

[Jeivar]

I played the first game and had some pretty mixed feelings about it. I'm a real sucker for RPG's that make me feel like I'm actually interacting with people and impacting the world around me, but on the other hand I disliked the excessive miserableness of the setting, the unbelievable amount of time spent in the Deep Roads (and to a lesser extent the mage tower) the boring MMO-ish combat and the sheer AMOUNT of combat. I should be able to go to the bakery without climbing over a mountain of corpses, especially when the combat isn't that entertaining.

The snippets of discussions about DA2 I've seen online seem to mostly complain about copy/pasted environments and the templar/mage conflict being poorly handled. Just how is the game overall? Is the poorly handled conflict a game breaker? Is combat still a horrible slog? Are the party members entertaining? I kind of despised Morrigan and Sten but I like the rest of the DA:O folks.

And how much does an imported save impact the sequel? I didn't make a copy of my save games when I bought a new computer.

[Jayngfet]

I played the first game and had some pretty mixed feelings about it. I'm a real sucker for RPG's that make me feel like I'm actually interacting with people and impacting the world around me, but on the other hand I disliked the excessive miserableness of the setting, the unbelievable amount of time spent in the Deep Roads (and to a lesser extent the mage tower) the boring MMO-ish combat and the sheer AMOUNT of combat. I should be able to go to the bakery without climbing over a mountain of corpses, especially when the combat isn't that entertaining.

The snippets of discussions about DA2 I've seen online seem to mostly complain about copy/pasted environments and the templar/mage conflict being poorly handled. Just how is the game overall? Is the poorly handled conflict a game breaker? Is combat still a horrible slog? Are the party members entertaining? I kind of despised Morrigan and Sten but I like the rest of the DA:O folks.

And how much does an imported save impact the sequel? I didn't make a copy of my save games when I bought a new computer.

It's a game I really want to like, but ultimatley can't overcome it's many issues. The dungeons really are just blatantly copypasted from each other, a number of the characters are grating(though not to the extent Morrigan tends to be in Origins) and a whole bunch of little things. One of the companions is apparently likable, but he's locked behind a DLC paywall, so good luck with that.

Combat runs faster, but they throw more of it to you in even more obvious formulas, so that now you literally cannot walk down a street at night without fighting dozens of people at once, even if it's not on quest. Everything is more balanced, but significantly boiled down. The setting is still excessivley miserable in a lot of ways and turned up to eleven, with the game insisting THERE ARE ONLY GREY CHOICES, but then making them binary and locking you off from a bunch of stuff you'd want to choose anyway.

You don't really need your origins file, but that's not really a good thing. Bioware rather blatantly just ignores whatever your choices were in origins to do it's own thing. You might think I'm overstating it but David Gaider personally insulted someone who took issue with it at one point.

There are some good points in there, and it's on my list of things to replay in the coming weeks and months, but it's one I keep finding excuses to put off or push down the list.

[Mx.Silver]

After having thought about it for a while, I would say DA2 can probably be best thought of as Bioware trying to make their own KOTOR II for a series of theirs. That is, on the one hand it's trying to present a grey and, for want of a better word, deconstructionist take on the material, (not always successfully) but on the other suffers from a rushed development time, which becomes increasingly obvious towards the end (although not as bad as KOTOR II).
The latter part everyone agrees is bad, while the effects of the former, especially it's differences with Origins, have proven rather divisive.

The most fundamental difference between the two games is that Origins is very much an exercise in player-empowerment: the warden has an enormous (some might say ridiculous) level of impact on the world, being able to decide the succession of multiple governments, solve age-old conflicts and more all in the process of saving the world from the invasion of the Darkspawn.
DA2 is, in some aspects, almost a subversion of this: Hawke is competent and capable, but is not all that much more able to influence the political landscape of Kirkwall than any other normal noble of the city.You can still have a influence, most notably to the lives of various NPCs, but major events are very much going to happen which you do not have the power to stop. The goal is less 'save/change the world' and more trying to keep things contained as best you can when the responsibility falls on you. It seems to be trying to push more for 'realism' than the previous (although since this is Bioware we're talking about, take that term with a pinch of salt).

In terms of tone, it's similar to the first, possibly a bit darker with more of an attempt for shades of grey. In regards to companions I suspect it's more a matter of taste; I preferred DA2's cast to DA:O's, but some people take the exact opposite view. Combat is better in some ways (class ability trees have been improved, Mages aren't automatically the best choice of class, cross-class combos makes things a bit more fun, stamina potions are in and hits feel like they actually have some weight behind them) but worse in others (almost all fights are wave based in design) so on balance it's not much less of a slog, although there isn't a location quite as bad as Origins' deeproads.
Imported saves really don't matter all that much.


I would not say it's a great game but it's certainly not the atrocity some have claimed it is (although bear in mind I would also say that DA:O is a long way from being the masterpieces some laud it as). For the little it costs these days you could make worse purchases.

[ShinyRocks]

An imported save is irrelevant, pretty much. It's vaguely fun to have, but makes no real difference.

Combat is fun, but the fights are bad, if you see what I mean. The cross-class combos are fun - use a spell to make someone Brittle, than smash them to bits - and the actual button-pressing is enjoyable. But the fights are just wave after wave of enemies, and 'difficulty' is mostly added by giving enemies tonnes and tonnes of health.

I quite like the characters. Aveline is genuinely one of my favourite video game companions ever. Varric is great. Even the annoying ones are mostly well-written in my opinion: I can't stand Merrill, but she's consistent and her motivations make sense. Carver is a jerk, but has reason to be.

I literally finished a replay of it a couple of hours ago. I don't think the Templar/Mage conflict *is* badly handled. I think they billed it badly, implying you'll have more influence than you do. But taken for what it is, it's actually ok, and I admire them for trying something different - 'conflict is inevitable' is different from 'you save the world', after all.

It's not a perfect game by any means, but I think it's worth a play, especially if you intend to play DA3.

[Giggling Ghast]

I believe the demo is still available, and the game itself is dirt cheap right now.

[Dienekes]

Yeah, every problem you claim to dislike about DAO is there tenfold. The game is more depressong than ever. Combàt is a slog but at least the animations and inputs are faster but it's somehow even more of a grind than DAO.

As far as companions I found most of them annoying except Aveline and Varric. (But I actually found Sten interesting if a horrible person, agreed on Morrigan though)

[Kish]

Really, in Dragon Age 2, you play an extremely expendable supporting character in Anders' story.

If you're okay with that and create a character who believes the Chantry's oppression of mages is horrible and needs to be stopped, the game is a lot of fun. If you believed* any of what Bioware said about your character being more important to the Dragon Age world than Andraste, or if you can't imagine creating a character ("from an apostate family" or not) who doesn't think think mages belong in cages and should be grateful they're not being slaughtered at birth, you'll hate it.

*In a positive way, I mean; I believed they were at least going to try to actualize it when they were saying it, but my reaction to learning how totally untrue it was was "Whew."

[Zevox]

I played the first game and had some pretty mixed feelings about it. I'm a real sucker for RPG's that make me feel like I'm actually interacting with people and impacting the world around me, but on the other hand I disliked the excessive miserableness of the setting, the unbelievable amount of time spent in the Deep Roads (and to a lesser extent the mage tower) the boring MMO-ish combat and the sheer AMOUNT of combat. I should be able to go to the bakery without climbing over a mountain of corpses, especially when the combat isn't that entertaining.
What you disliked about DA:O is definitely still there - DA2 is darker than DA:O was, and the combat, while sped up and rebalanced, is still much the same and very plentiful, and now suffers from a couple of problems that are likely the result of the rushed development: health bloat and almost every encounter having multiple waves. Though there isn't an area that's as much of a slog as the Deep Roads in DA:O.

One part of what you did like about DA:O is lessened in 2. You will see much less affect from your actions on the world around you than in the first game.

As for fun characters to interact with, I'd say so myself, but as with much about the game not everyone agrees with me.

Personally, I enjoyed the game, and think it's actually better than its predecessor on the whole. But from what you said about your own opinions of the first game, I doubt you'd enjoy the second, and would probably advise skipping it.


And how much does an imported save impact the sequel? I didn't make a copy of my save games when I bought a new computer.
Very little. There's a few points where characters who survived Origins can make a cameo, but the only one likely to be affected in most files is Alistair (who actually has several possible cameos depending on how he ended up in Origins, or of course could not cameo if he was the one who died to kill the Archdemon). Beyond that, I don't think there was much, if anything.

[Grif]

Sounds like I'm not missing much. I guess I'll just stick to waiting for Inquisition then.

[Giggling Ghast]

The setting isn't getting less grim in Inquisition, I'm afraid. And there will still be piles of combat.


Really, in Dragon Age 2, you play an extremely expendable supporting character in Anders' story

Oh, that's a bit of exaggeration. Anders has no part whatsoever in the qunari conflict and only a minor role in the subplots involving the Deep Roads expedition or the lyrium idol. He initiates the end conflict, but that was basically inevitable and the game keeps going once he's removed from the story.

[Psyren]

Really, in Dragon Age 2, you play an extremely expendable supporting character in Anders' story.

The Qunari part is important too. I know that the game kind of glosses it over afterward but it's the reason that (a) Sten was able to ascend to be the new Arishok, and (b) I have little doubt it'll play directly into our Kossith backstory in DAI.


What you disliked about DA:O is definitely still there - DA2 is darker than DA:O was, and the combat, while sped up and rebalanced, is still much the same and very plentiful, and now suffers from a couple of problems that are likely the result of the rushed development: health bloat and almost every encounter having multiple waves. Though there isn't an area that's as much of a slog as the Deep Roads in DA:O.

Or the Tower + Fade for that matter. Holy dungeonception, Batman...

[Zevox]

Or the Tower + Fade for that matter. Holy dungeonception, Batman...
I like the Fade, actually. Never understood why people don't. The whole shape-shifting mechanic in particular is a lot of fun.

[Jayngfet]

I like the Fade, actually. Never understood why people don't. The whole shape-shifting mechanic in particular is a lot of fun.

The fade is brown. Agressivley so. As in, there's no proper use of color through the entirety of Origins, but the Fade just stands out as an unending slog of brown and camera lenses. Not to mention that none of the gameplay bits actually transfer over to the rest of the game, so you basically have to learn a whole new thing with no applications elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong, I had fun in the fade, but I can't ignore it's many, many problems.

I mean that's kind of one thing DA2 actually improved upon: Areas look both appreciably different and reasonably unique. Hightown is a clean and bustling white marketplace, lowtown is dusty and rough, Darktown is, well, Dark. You can tell when you go to the red light district and even the tiny Alienage at least feels different, whereas the one in Origins was larger but muddy and just looked like regular denerim with bridges over rivers that should be visible from the rest of the city.

Literally the only thing I'm actually excited about with inquisition is the fact that they use actual colors at this point, instead of going REAL IS BROWN.

[Psyren]

I like the Fade, actually. Never understood why people don't. The whole shape-shifting mechanic in particular is a lot of fun.

It's a giant Guide Dang It sequence if you want to find the Lost Forever (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LostForever) buffs/rewards that can only be garnered there. And many of the puzzles have nothing to do with the gameplay in the rest of the game. IF you're a fire mage, you're pretty screwed due to all the rage demons. And finally, you have to do a good chunk of it alone when you had your party up to that point. That plus the lore issues of getting Dwarves inside lead people to dislike it.

There are certainly parts of it I liked, but there's a reason people wrote mods to skip the whole damn thing (http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/11/18/18-essential-dragon-age-mods/) and still get all the goodies.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

What you disliked about DA:O is definitely still there - DA2 is darker than DA:O was, and the combat, while sped up and rebalanced, is still much the same and very plentiful, and now suffers from a couple of problems that are likely the result of the rushed development: health bloat and almost every encounter having multiple waves. Though there isn't an area that's as much of a slog as the Deep Roads in DA:O.

One part of what you did like about DA:O is lessened in 2. You will see much less affect from your actions on the world around you than in the first game.

As for fun characters to interact with, I'd say so myself, but as with much about the game not everyone agrees with me.

Personally, I enjoyed the game, and think it's actually better than its predecessor on the whole. But from what you said about your own opinions of the first game, I doubt you'd enjoy the second, and would probably advise skipping it.

I'm going to second this. Combat in particular is very, very frequent, and I found a lot of gameplay to be "get quest, go to location, fight enemies, claim reward". That said, I came to enjoy the combat more, because it's flashy and all-around more "fun". It's a bit jarring in its difference, but I justified that with "Unreliable Narrator". Because that explanation makes too much sense.

I also liked the characters more than in DA:O.

But yes, you probably wouldn't like it, given what you liked/disliked about the first game.

[Mx.Silver]

I like the Fade, actually. Never understood why people don't. The whole shape-shifting mechanic in particular is a lot of fun.

I liked it as well - as I've said numerous times, The Fade is easily the interesting part of the setting's fluff. Still, the colour palette and visual design did leave something to be desired and, while I liked the change of pace, gimmick dungeons are usually going to irk someone.

[Psyren]

To be clear, I like the Fade as a setpiece and I don't mind its washed out color palette. As a shadowy dream world I can appreciate that stylstic choice. I certainly like it during the Mage intro - short and sweet - as well as during the Feynriel quest, though the readiness with which your companions are affected while there does bug me.

My problems with it are purely from a gameplay perspective. The forced extended separation from your companions, the monster immunities, the vulnerabilities of your own forms - these artificially ratchet up the difficulty. Then there's a lot of backtracking to get all the goodies you missed on the first pass because you didn't have the forms yet. And if you don't have a walkthrough or have played before (and you may need a walkthrough even then), sucks to be you.


I would have instead liked those rewards, and freeing your companions, to require noncombat mental tests of some kind. like a randomized debate or logic puzzle, or a game of memory. Something that hits home that this is a realm of the mind, not merely another dungeon with different enemy types and a funky filter slapped on.

And if they're going to break the lore by forcing Dwarves to do the sequence anyway, why not let them use lyirium veins too? What was the rationale for excluding them?

[Calemyr]

The good:
The Banter: This game has excellent banter - as imperfect and grating as the allies can be, they all add a lot of marvelous color to the game just by giving each other grief. The main character also takes part, with his/her lines depending on the general theme of your normal choices in dialog.

The Combat: Much livelier, much more active battlefield with a smoother structure.

The Innovation: For good or ill, the game banks on an extremely unusual structure for an RPG. Instead of trotting the globe, you're spanning a decade of life in one city.

The Characters: It's really hard to dislike Sebastian (DLC character) and it's nigh impossible to dislike Varric and Bethany, and Aveline is generally well recieved. Everyone else, on the other hand, is quite messed up. Messed up in interesting ways, mostly.

The Family: DA2 is a much more personal story than most. You aren't some itinerant murder-hobo like most adventurers. You have a home and a family and a circle of friends and most of your adventuring is purely a means to maintaining them. Walking around your house and commenting on your friends and family have done in the area (such as Isabella adding dirty limericks to the main character's diary) is a really cool idea.

The bad:

The Combat: I really hope you weren't planning on this being a tactical game. Enemies come in waves, with the next group spawning wherever the hell they want. Array your allies to protect your mage with a featureless wall behind you? Half the next wave will show up where they physically couldn't reach. The wave setup is also very frustrating, dragging out fights and rendering room-sweeping specials meaningless as gangs send wave after wave of their own men to choke you.

The Characters: They may be mostly good, but when they're not they're bloody horrible. Better than half your party are stubborn, self-destructive morons who can't be steered with a sledge hammer and generally make your life miserable with their antics. These are also the romantic options, so I do hope you like crazy, because we have four flavors to choose from. They're all bi, though, so you always have all four flavors to choose from.

The Innovation: As brilliant as so many of the ideas behind the game may have been, their implementation is weak at best. Spending a decade in the same city would be great if there were any fundamental changes that took place over time. The game gives you choice where you don't need it, the illusion of choice when you do, and then has the gall to make you feel guilty for outcomes of events it specifically locks you out of affecting.

The Ugly:
The Purpose: Somebody was suffering a serious depression when they were writing this game, because it has to be the most nihilistic study in futility I've ever seen. You can never make things better, you can only just keep killing things until they stop getting worse - for a while, anyway. The good parts are a lot of fun, the bad parts are horrible and infuriatingly inevitable.

The Verdict:
Seen as a game, the game is actually pretty fun. The combats get long and tedious due to the wave mechanic, but the actual combat is lively enough to make you feel like a badass in the process, so it balances out. The characters add a lot to the game, and their banters go a long way to bringing an otherwise dead world to life. Finally, Hawke (particularly the glib male Hawke) definitely makes an excellent protagonist*. Glib Hawke has some of the best lines in this or any other game I've played.

As a story, however, it's disappointing. DA:O brings very little to the game beyond a few cameos and references. Your part in the story is just the comedy-tragedy side-show to the important things you have no influence over. It has so much potential, so many good ideas, and uses them all so poorly.

I play the game, now and again. It's quite fun in its way. The game isn't a grievous insult or a terrible crime in the slightest. It's just a decent game with great dialogue but horrible plotting and a mountain of great ideas that were never properly utilized.

* "Protagonist", as in: the character the story is centered around. Hawke is great for that, and serves nicely as the glue holding everything together even as everything is falling apart. More than that, however, such as being - say - the hero or even really the main character? Not so much.

[Avilan the Grey]

It's the most interesting game Bioware has ever made.
Unfortunately, in my opinion of course, they completely failed at what they set out to do.

[Jayngfet]

It's the most interesting game Bioware has ever made.
Unfortunately, in my opinion of course, they completely failed at what they set out to do.

That's honestly the best description I've ever heard of it.

Is it fun? Despite all the heavy criticisms I'll freely lay, I'll say yes. They achieved this without much elegance(handing you endgame stuff early and having act 1 hawke do more damage than your awakening era warden), but they achieved it. Does it look nice? Yes, it's visually pretty decent if nothing else, with a nicer palette, even if they wound up stealing a bunch of assets from Mass Effect to make new items(little things, like the collar on Hawke's mercenary fullplate being the same as some of the N7 variants). Is it well written? Well a few like Bethany are nuanced enough to be engaging, but some like Fenris are just so cliche you can't help but smile at the aggressive tropery. Not to mention that you really don't see that end plot twist until it hits you unless you read ahead.

It's playable, kind of, even if not in the way it tells you it is. It's amusing, even if I think we're finding it funnier than we're supposed to at times. The visuals read well, even if they had to make some heavy changes from Origins(arguably for the better, Origins visual design was kinda drek). It it an improvement? Well when I played it on launch day my first impression was "finally, another bioware game that's fun to play!" instead of "ugh, another slog for romance points".

If you take it as a beat-em-up game with RPG elements, it's much more fun.

[Math_Mage]

The Characters: They may be mostly good, but when they're not they're bloody horrible. Better than half your party are stubborn, self-destructive morons who can't be steered with a sledge hammer and generally make your life miserable with their antics. These are also the romantic options, so I do hope you like crazy, because we have four flavors to choose from. They're all bi, though, so you always have all four flavors to choose from.
Random aside--I prefer to think of this setup as 'protagonist-sexual' rather than bi, unless the character is independently established as bi (so, probably Isabela). What I mean by that is that the character is not simultaneously attracted to male and female Hawke--when you choose which Hawke you're playing, you also choose the sexuality of Hawke's LIs as a corollary. Schrodinger's sexuality, so to speak.

[Psyren]

For Merrill, I agree concerning the "protagonist-sexual" moniker. Anders and Fenris though I see as bi. The former has had a relationship with Karl regardless of Hawke's gender while the latter has undoubtedly been used to pleasure Danarius' friends and enemies for years.

[Jayngfet]

Random aside--I prefer to think of this setup as 'protagonist-sexual' rather than bi, unless the character is independently established as bi (so, probably Isabela). What I mean by that is that the character is not simultaneously attracted to male and female Hawke--when you choose which Hawke you're playing, you also choose the sexuality of Hawke's LIs as a corollary. Schrodinger's sexuality, so to speak.

Of course, this just gets kind of creepy when you think about it, since "protagonist-sexual" is basically Merrill's entire M.O. in a disturbing sense. I mean she lives alone for years and doesn't exactly mention any other crushes, or anyone else looking at her. She barely seems to have a life outside of helping Hawke murder random people in lowtown at night. She basically exists to be Hawke's adorkable waifu and very little else for half her screentime.

[Avilan the Grey]

Of course, this just gets kind of creepy when you think about it, since "protagonist-sexual" is basically Merrill's entire M.O. in a disturbing sense. I mean she lives alone for years and doesn't exactly mention any other crushes, or anyone else looking at her. She barely seems to have a life outside of helping Hawke murder random people in lowtown at night. She basically exists to be Hawke's adorkable waifu and very little else for half her screentime.

You know, this is true.
I don't like her at all, as you MIGHT have realized (:smalltongue:) but I didn't think of this aspect. People sometimes think the Tali romance is creepy because it feels like you are hitting on your kid sister, but this romance comes off as (the best way I can describe it) your best friend's kid sister having a hell of a crush on you, and you're actually running with it.

Adds another layer on my rationalization of not liking her.

[Ajadea]

I think Merrill being protagonist-sexual actually makes sense. She's a bit socially awkward at the best of times, a blood mage (causing friction with other companions), and fixated on the Eluvian. She doesn't get along well with the elves in the alienage, and her awareness of human social norms is close to nil, which piles awkward on awkward. Running away is easier at that point. I'm guessing her time in Kirkwall consists of like 50%+ Eluvian-related stuff, maybe 35% helping Hawke and co. out aka the only socializing she does at all, and 15% or less actually having an independent life. So of course any romantic interest she develops will be within the party.

Isabela and Anders are independently confirmed as bisexual (Isabela is obvious, Anders hits on women in Awakening and had a relationship with Karl). Fenris is attracted to women enough to have sex with Isabela in Act 3, and I'm leaning towards him being some degree of bisexual as well. Merrill is probably protagonist/demisexual - attracted to Hawke for being Hawke, regardless of gender.

[Winthur]

It's a game that made me realize that sometime after he released the Ascension mod and was a real bro to the community, David Gaider was kidnapped and replaced with a condescending alien with terrible writing skills and the affinity towards taking massive doodoos on BioWare fans. Stay away from it unless you enjoy mediocre RPGs with cringeworthy romance options.

[Mx.Silver]

For Merrill, I agree concerning the "protagonist-sexual" moniker.

I'm less convinced, since between her, Zevran, Fenris and Talis it's actually looking rather plausible that bisexuality is just the norm for elves.

[Avilan the Grey]

It's a game that made me realize that sometime after he released the Ascension mod and was a real bro to the community, David Gaider was kidnapped and replaced with a condescending alien with terrible writing skills and the affinity towards taking massive doodoos on BioWare fans. Stay away from it unless you enjoy mediocre RPGs with cringeworthy romance options.

I'm feeling all Merrill towards you know :smallbiggrin::smallwink:
Seriously, I'm steaing this.

[Jayngfet]

You know, this is true.
I don't like her at all, as you MIGHT have realized (:smalltongue:) but I didn't think of this aspect. People sometimes think the Tali romance is creepy because it feels like you are hitting on your kid sister, but this romance comes off as (the best way I can describe it) your best friend's kid sister having a hell of a crush on you, and you're actually running with it.

Adds another layer on my rationalization of not liking her.

Hey, if nothing else Tali managed to prove she was "all grown up" and capable of handling herself. I mean yeah she's like nineteen tops and Shepard is pushing thirty, which is kinda creepy, but less so. Merrill doesn't really have that. She's basically stuck as teenaged-Tali in Mass Effect 1. Heck, less so if you compare their reactions to Chora's Den vs The Blooming Rose.

I mean don't get me wrong I went for it the first time I played through, but that was because I was young and stupid and thankful to finally have mages that weren't Morrigan tier stupid(even if Merrill tier isn't exactly a paragon).

[Psyren]

It's a game that made me realize that sometime after he released the Ascension mod and was a real bro to the community, David Gaider was kidnapped and replaced with a condescending alien with terrible writing skills and the affinity towards taking massive doodoos on BioWare fans. Stay away from it unless you enjoy mediocre RPGs with cringeworthy romance options.

Gaider is the main reason we have non-lesbian gay romances in any Bioware game. So he most certainly did not "doodoo"a on me.


I'm less convinced, since between her, Zevran, Fenris and Talis it's actually looking rather plausible that bisexuality is just the norm for elves.

You know, this is actually a pretty good point. Though it seems the arranged marriages in the City Elf Origin are heteronormative.

[Winthur]

Gaider is the main reason we have non-lesbian gay romances in any Bioware game.
So what? What is it worth? It's superficial. It doesn't make Bioware games any good. It's not even noteworthy for a mainstream RPG because it has been done before.
I'm still perfectly allowed to criticize him, because that doesn't change the fact that he's a hack of a writer (treating the character's sexuality like a personality trait, the way Anders acts after you turn him down is borderline offensive with the way he's pushed onto you, and DA2's NPCs are just boring) and also terrible at talking to the community.
A company shielding itself from criticism by claiming its progressiveness, like EA/Bioware does, also doesn't get any respect points from me.
DA2 was awful, gay romance or not. I'm sure if my second playthrough was full-on yaoi mode, I'd still not enjoy it.

[Psyren]

So what? What is it worth? It's superficial.

It's worthwhile to me; and if you don't care what I think, I can assure you the feeling is mutual. *shrug*

[Mx.Silver]

The Ugly:
The Purpose: Somebody was suffering a serious depression when they were writing this game, because it has to be the most nihilistic study in futility I've ever seen.


I can only assume you've had a rather less extensive experience with media of that tone than I. Granted DA2 goes further than a lot of mainstream WRPGs (although that's not saying much) but if you compare it against something like, say, Actual Sunlight it's not really very far on the bleak scale of things.





So what? What is it worth? It's superficial.
I would imagine there are a fair few people who might appreciate it - the option for male player avatars to be romantically involved with male characters hasn't been too well represented historically, after all.


I'm still perfectly allowed to criticize him
No one said you weren't.

[Avilan the Grey]

You know, this is actually a pretty good point. Though it seems the arranged marriages in the City Elf Origin are heteronormative.

On the other hand, if everyone is bisexual, being set up with a male - female arranged marriage is not worse than to be set up with any other configuration, and much better for reproductive purposes.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

On the other hand, if everyone is bisexual, being set up with a male - female arranged marriage is not worse than to be set up with any other configuration, and much better for reproductive purposes.
If it's an arranged marriage, reproductive purposes are likely the sole motive behind it.

[Winthur]

I would imagine there are a fair few people who might appreciate it - the option for male player avatars to be romantically involved with male characters hasn't been too well represented historically, after all.
Oh, I'm not against it as a whole. I'm against terrible games. They expected the game to sell by riding off the established franchise and filling a minority quota. Well written romance plotlines haven't been too well represented historically either in BioWare games. Hiding that deficiency behind the banner of progressiveness doesn't make it much better. BioWare should get better writers or I'll continue to cringe at their NPCs' extremely stereotypical behavior.

Also, if you want to get painfully specific, Gaider wasn't even the first to give us male on male romances in BioWare games. That honor would go to Westley Weimer, thanks to whom anyone could write and implement a romance mod for Baldur's Gate 2.

[Mx.Silver]

On the other hand, if everyone is bisexual, being set up with a male - female arranged marriage is not worse than to be set up with any other configuration, and much better for reproductive purposes.

I would have thought that, in a society which has a higher child/infant mortality rate than the one we enjoy, reproduction would probably be a fairly large concern for marriage (there's some historical examples of similar set-ups, e.g. classical Sparta).

Of course, I don't think many implications of the city elf design were thought through much in the first place - see also: the Fereldan/Kirkwall city elves having distinctly North American sounding accents despite this not actually making any sense. Really, if you're looking for a game with strong world-building that informs a lot of the game itself, Dragon Age probably isn't your best franchise. Nor are Bioware really your best choice of developer :smallwink:



Also, if you want to get painfully specific, Gaider wasn't even the first to give us male on male romances in BioWare games. That honor would go to Westley Weimer, thanks to whom anyone could write and implement a romance mod for Baldur's Gate 2.
I don't think giving people the option to mod things is really quite the same as including it in the game as shipped. Having said that, the credit for being first in the latter goes to the writers of Jade Empire (which Gaider didn't work on, AFAIK) on account of Sky.

[Giggling Ghast]

Reproduction is the entire point of the arranged marriages in the CE origin. Your sexual preferences be damned; the elven population is dwindling.

[Psyren]

Well written romance plotlines haven't been too well represented historically either in BioWare games.

Whose RPGs are doing romances better?



Also, if you want to get painfully specific, Gaider wasn't even the first to give us male on male romances in BioWare games. That honor would go to Westley Weimer, thanks to whom anyone could write and implement a romance mod for Baldur's Gate 2.

"Allowing me to mod" is hardly the same thing as the company making that an option in the base game and all console releases. By that logic you could probably mod a romance into Doom if you were so inclined.

[Jayngfet]

It's worthwhile to me; and if you don't care what I think, I can assure you the feeling is mutual. *shrug*

Of course, this doesn't really change the fact that your romance options mean absolutely nothing once they stop caring. Leliana and Zevran both kind of abandon you after Origins and never show up again, except maybe in one line of text in the epilogue and that's it, even though both explicitly say they're going to stick around at the end of the game. No matter what you do with Anders, his plan never changes. Hawke conveniently disappears in time for the sequel, so they only need to pay lip service to whatever you did in Inquisiton, just like with the Warden.

Which is the issue. Nothing the player chooses has any real weight. Characters you kill will show up with no scars whenever the writer feels like, things you deal with can become undone the moment the writers decide your choice wasn't convenient for them. Very little you accomplish has a real sense of weight to it.

It's one thing to say you have all cards on the table for everyone, and it's another entirely to follow through on it.

[Psyren]

Why would romancing someone stop them from pursuing their own hopes and dreams? They're characters, not RealDolls built for your protagonist's amusement.

Yes, Leliana and Zevran show up in Kirkwall without towing a romanced Warden along behind them. They have jobs. Yes, Anders goes through with his plan regardless of romance state. He explains this to you and you're free to react as you wish. I'm not sure what else you wanted Bioware to do; they gave you as much agency as they needed to within the confines of the story they wanted to tell.

[Winthur]

Whose RPGs are doing romances better?
I'm looking into the Persona titles by Atlus just because of how fun and engaging it looks like to have and nurture a relationship with your in-game waifu. (And for other reasons.) If you're looking for non-Bioware examples, Fallout 2 did gay marriage for both sexes. The Witcher, aside from its affection towards ploughing scenes, also has quite an expanded dialogue tree with both Triss and Shani that's done pretty well.

Meanwhile all of BioWare's titles have had the same archetypes for their romances and the same shallow romance plotlines since BG2. It's a BioWare trademark, not an RPG trademark, to have superficial romances in the game. Those romances were as strong as their characters - with complex people like Viconia, they worked out well, with the following examples they started getting stale.

In all honesty, do you need them? If there's an RPG that doesn't allow you for a romance or merely lets you know that the protagonist's love interest is character X (like in Final Fantasy IV for instance) do you discard them because you can't manifest your sexuality in them? I'd imagine that someone who plays role playing games would be able to empathize with characters regardless of whatever.

Jayngfet above put forth a good reason for the romances as a whole being superficial and hardly a notable addition to the game.

And if you want good, tasteful examples of homosexual characters in RPGs that aren't necessarily romancable, Arcade Gannon (Fallout: New Vegas) would get my vote.



"Allowing me to mod" is hardly the same thing as the company making that an option in the base game and all console releases. By that logic you could probably mod a romance into Doom if you were so inclined.

Which is why I only added it as an afterthought. And yes, you could add a romance to Doom by all means. You can make anything out of Doom, including adventure games or RPGs with complex equipment systems. Nobody decided to do romance, though, for some reason. Why don't you make your own game with your own romance plot - even through a modding engine? I'm sure that would help make the difference.


Why would romancing someone stop them from pursuing their own hopes and dreams? They're characters, not RealDolls built for your protagonist's amusement.

That's an extreme you're going towards. Nobody is arguing NPCs shouldn't have their own lives. However, when a romance subplot turns out to have no bearing towards anything in the game aside from a few bonus flavor dialogues and no development is made, then that should say a lot about how relevant the developers think romances are.

Baldur's Gate 2, for instance, had Aerie give you a child and quite a lot of hoops to jump over, and then at the end of it she grew into a confident, proper lady. Jaheira's romance could be legitimately challenging to figure out and really had you engaged in a plethora of quests. Viconia's romance subplot involved a possible alignment change.

And then, those ideas vanished and were replaced with... well, pandering. If lesbian romances in games like Jade Empire were only there to satisfy the male audience's girl-on-girl fetish (as I've heard many accusators say), then I'm afraid the gay romances in DA2 are classifiable as fujoshi bait.

[Psyren]

Why don't you make your own game with your own romance plot - even through a modding engine? I'm sure that would help make the difference.

Why would I need to when I'm happy with what Bioware has done?


I'm looking into the Persona titles by Atlus just because of how fun and engaging it looks like to have and nurture a relationship with your in-game waifu. (And for other reasons.) If you're looking for non-Bioware examples, Fallout 2 did gay marriage for both sexes. The Witcher, aside from its affection towards ploughing scenes, also has quite an expanded dialogue tree with both Triss and Shani that's done pretty well.

Persona is good, don't get me wrong. But they are still limited compared to the length and breadth of Bioware's work.

Bethesda marriages have as much point as Fable marriages, which is to say none. There are no unique personalities or motivations among your prospective spouses, no flirtatious or fearful dialogue when they accompany you on missions. no changing commentary from other party members or NPCs.



In all honesty, do you need them? If there's an RPG that doesn't allow you for a romance or merely lets you know that the protagonist's love interest is character X (like in Final Fantasy IV for instance) do you discard them because you can't manifest your sexuality in them? I'd imagine that someone who plays role playing games would be able to empathize with characters regardless of whatever.

I don't "need" anything in a game. It's an issue of want, not need. The core engagement of Western RPGs is self-expression - my protagonist, my combat style, my dialogue choices. If I didn't want that I'd be playing a JRPG with its pre-baked protagonist.



That's an extreme you're going towards. Nobody is arguing NPCs shouldn't have their own lives. However, when a romance subplot turns out to have no bearing towards anything in the game aside from a few bonus flavor dialogues and no development is made, then that should say a lot about how relevant the developers think romances are.

I don't want a romance to affect the larger plot. It should be engaging in its own right, not because doing so will give you some kind of benefit or penalty towards the game's larger outcome. All you'd be doing is penalizing players that romanced someone else or that didn't pursue a romance at all. That content is designed to be separate from the main game, and rightfully so.



And then, those ideas vanished and were replaced with... well, pandering. If lesbian romances in games like Jade Empire were only there to satisfy the male audience's girl-on-girl fetish (as I've heard many accusators say), then I'm afraid the gay romances in DA2 are classifiable as fujoshi bait.

Jade Empire had a male-on-male romance too actually. Given that they did so at a time when that could have actually hurt sales, I doubt pandering was the motivation.

[Winthur]

Bethesda marriages have as much point as Fable romances, which is to say none. There are no unique personalities or motivations among your prospective spouses, no flirtatious or fearful dialogue when they accompany you on missions
Bethesda does marriage options? I didn't know. Hence why I didn't post about them.


I don't "need" anything in a game. It's an issue of want, not need. The core engagement of Western RPGs is self-expression - my protagonist, my combat style, my dialogue choices. If I didn't want that I'd be playing a JRPG with its pre-baked protagonist.
Pre-baked protagonists still happen in critically acclaimed wRPGs - look at Albion, Gothic or The Witcher. Bethesda games lack proper dialogue options for the most part, preferring lists of items to ask about. They can lack any of the items you listed in core engagement and still be wRPGs. Because they are RPGs made in the west. You don't see people call Dark Souls a wRPG even though it could definitely pass for one with its setting and the amount of combat styles and customization. There are more distinctive style differences between wRPGs and jRPGs.


I don't want a romance to affect the larger plot. It should be engaging in its own right, not because doing so will give you some kind of benefit or penalty towards the game's larger outcome. All you'd be doing is penalizing players that romanced someone else or that didn't pursue a romance at all. That content is designed to be separate from the main game, and rightfully so.
So, like the friendship and rivalry system?


Jade Empire had a male-on-male romance too actually. Given that they did so at a time when that could have actually hurt sales, I doubt pandering was the motivation.
What time? 2005? How much more bigoted were we 9 years ago? And how come nobody gave a crap about the m/m romance option and I didn't even know about it until now? I'm willing to guess it's because nobody cared about it being there at all until it became a hot, controversial topic.

[Jayngfet]

What time? 2005? How much more bigoted were we 9 years ago? And how come nobody gave a crap about the m/m romance option and I didn't even know about it until now? I'm willing to guess it's because nobody cared about it being there at all until it became a hot, controversial topic.

Lets face it, finding the male on male romances in JE was hard. The game basically locks you in on Dawn Star if you're even vaguely nice to her and even with Silk Fox, who's a bit forward at times, you have to work for it. Even if you realize that the dude is interested, you have a small window to actually try something. Female spirit monks have much more freedom since Dawn Star doesn't latch on to you like a squid arm the moment she appears. You meet Silk Fox first so it's technically easier to go for her than to not. I mean I remember back when G4 was new and they did a little thing on Jade Empire and they framed that whole thing as a bug or a cheat based on Lord Lao's furnace. So even when it was acknowledged it wasn't really thought of as being a huge part of the game.

Though that's ultimately irrelevant, since Jade Empires story is framed in a way where romance can't really dominate it due to it's pacing and Bioware wasn't treating it as their main gameplay draw at that point. Hence why it was probably the fastest paced and most involved combat they've done, because it was an actual video game, instead of a visual novel hotglued to a 3.5 splatbook(or God of war, in the case of DA2).

[Psyren]

Bethesda does marriage options? I didn't know. Hence why I didn't post about them.

Oh, you said Fallout 2. Honestly if you're digging back that far into gaming history you may as well bring up Leisure Suit Larry or something.


Pre-baked protagonists still happen in critically acclaimed wRPGs - look at Albion, Gothic or The Witcher. Bethesda games lack proper dialogue options for the most part, preferring lists of items to ask about. They can lack any of the items you listed in core engagement and still be wRPGs. Because they are RPGs made in the west.

Though named for their location initially, WRPG and JRPG no longer simply refer to the place these games are created. Septerra Core is a JRPG that was made in the west, and you yourself brought up Dark Souls, a WRPG made in the east. (And yes, many people DO call Dark Souls a WRPG, including the Extra Credits crew, so I'm not sure where you got the idea that people don't.)

And you're not quite correct on your examples either. Yes, the Witcher gives you a fixed protagonist to play (Geralt), as do other WRPGs like Deus Ex (Adam/JC) or Planescape (Nameless.) But again, the primary engagement of a WRPG is self-expression - though the person you're playing as in those examples does not change, their playstyle is much more customizable than in most JRPGs

Compare to a JRPG protagonist like Cloud. Yeah, he can learn magic, but he's only ever going to use big swords, never a staff or gun or boomerang, and he's going to look pretty much the same no matter what you equip him with. Then from a gameplay standpoint, all his Limit Breaks will involve that sword of his too. And while you can make him the party mage, it's not a role he's well suited for. There's less room for expression there. Similarly, you could probably make Aeris a melee powerhouse/tank, but without seriously overleveling the content it's just not going to be effective. Nearly every aspect of these games sacrifices agency for cinematic delivery - the most powerful attacks in a JRPG are generally long cutscenes that you the player get to sit back and watch, or at best mash a few buttons.


So, like the friendship and rivalry system?

You know that has nothing to do with romances, right? You can max out either one with any character without pursuing a romance with them.


What time? 2005? How much more bigoted were we 9 years ago? And how come nobody gave a crap about the m/m romance option and I didn't even know about it until now? I'm willing to guess it's because nobody cared about it being there at all until it became a hot, controversial topic.

As Jayngfet correctly mentioned, they buried it really deep and Jade Empire wasn't a very popular game anyway. So no, it didn't get the kind of media/gamer attention that the DAO/DA2/ME3 inclusions of same did.

As for your third question specifically, I could easily answer that, except it would result in my bringing up real-world politics and being censured.

[Jayngfet]

As Jayngfet correctly mentioned, they buried it really deep and Jade Empire wasn't a very popular game anyway. So no, it didn't get the kind of media/gamer attention that the DAO/DA2/ME3 inclusions of same did.

As for your third question specifically, I could easily answer that, except it would result in my bringing up real-world politics and being censured.

To be fair though, Jade Empire was a couple of years before ME1, which kind of blew up hugely once Fox News got wind of it. It was buring because it basically had to be.

I mean to bring it back to DA2, Gaider defended his choices on romance, but we have to remember that the game didn't really sell all that well in the end and they basically promised to make things a bit less forward next time. They couldn't even move a special edition for the thing, which had to sting.

Though at the end of the day I'd probably be much more fine with romance in DA2 than I am now if they bothered to actually hash out the sex and gender politics of the setting more than they do. Everything is kind of up in the air and some of the dialogue seems a bit contradictory character to character, based on whatever they think is more convenient at the time of writing.

[Zevox]

instead of a visual novel hotglued to a 3.5 splatbook(or God of war, in the case of DA2).
You've never actually played God of War, have you? Because as someone who has, let me assure you, they're not even remotely alike.

[Winthur]

Oh, you said Fallout 2. Honestly if you're digging back that far into gaming history you may as well bring up Leisure Suit Larry or something.
Gaming is a young medium. Had the Ultima series allowed me romance options, I'd talk about them too. Because they're great games, they're great wRPGs, and 20-30 years ago isn't a gap to dismiss games. We don't dismiss movies from the 80s or 90s, so I won't dismiss games from the 90s. And the original Fallout and its sequel are some of the most important games to the genre, too.




Though named for their location initially, WRPG and JRPG no longer simply refer to the place these games are created. Septerra Core is a JRPG that was made in the west, and you yourself brought up Dark Souls, a WRPG made in the east. (And yes, many people DO call Dark Souls a WRPG, including the Extra Credits crew, so I'm not sure where you got the idea that people don't.)
And then again, it barely has dialogue and your character is always the same knight guy. Also, I couldn't care less about what some e-celebs say.



And you're not quite correct on your examples either. Yes, the Witcher gives you a fixed protagonist to play (Geralt)
Who's also limited in his ability to use combat styles


Compare to a JRPG protagonist like Cloud.
Honestly, if you're digging that far back into gaming history you may as well bring up Bartz, whose game's job system prides itself on letting you play a whole mishmash of classes and people even play challenge runs where they completely randomize jobs available to them. Said job system is emulated in a ton of jRPGs and erring much, much more on customization's side.



You know that has nothing to do with romances, right? You can max out either one with any character without pursuing a romance with them.
The wooden, incoherent dialogue options and the way how turning down a romance can screw over your friendship/rivalry meter has me beg to differ. Anders glues himself to my Hawke from the start, I help him out with his quest and try to be supprotive, he goes "I love you", I don't care for that, and my meter drops.



As Jayngfet correctly mentioned, they buried it really deep and Jade Empire wasn't a very popular game anyway. So no, it didn't get the kind of media/gamer attention that the DAO/DA2/ME3 inclusions of same did.
So, magically, 9 years ago, nobody cared for the inclusion of a homosexual character in an AAA title. Now they do.
Given how panned ME3 and DA2 were, a lot of their remaining fans being the ones benefitting from the breadth of romance options, maybe JE would have been more popular if someone took a stand for poor Sky's bisexual nature? But no, nobody cared to notice that.
The problem to me appears to be lazy gamers who have to look for reasons to complain than actually solve problems and look/work for their desired niches.
"Your hobby now has to pander to us, even though we don't like videogames". Great.

[Mx.Silver]

So, magically, 9 years ago, nobody cared for the inclusion of a homosexual character in an AAA title. Now they do.
Nothing magical about it. Nine years ago there was hardly any real discussion about things like politics, representation, social commentary etc. as those related to games. Hell, the entire 'games as art' argument was only really being brought up as response to calls for restriction of the medium - in as much as it was brought up at all. There hadn't really been much thought, at least that most people had seen, as to what games being art, or just culturally relevant media in their own, right actually meant.

It's easy to not care about something if you've never thought about it, after all.



The problem to me appears to be lazy gamers who have to look for reasons to complain than actually solve problems and look/work for their desired niches.
"Your hobby now has to pander to us, even though we don't like videogames". Great.

I knew this topic was going to come out at some point, but still... :smallsigh:

[Winthur]

It's easy to not care about something if you've never thought about it, after all.
So, gay people didn't exist 9 years ago and/or they didn't play games 9 years ago.
Or maybe they did and they didn't care.
There's a stereotype for Japanese media-loving black people and somehow they don't complain about the main characters in their favourite media never being black.
Nine years ago everyone could have just taken games for games instead of tools of social agenda.

Also, I'm pretty sure that ever since Mortal Kombat or Doom we've had enough media attention regarding certain politics and social commentary. Hell, Richard Garriott made Ultima IV as a counterpoint against the vocal conservatives whose boogeyman was D&D.

Also, if 'games are art' (a sentiment I vehemently disagree with), then they shouldn't be interferred by minority groups or pandered to because of "my personal feelings" and instead should focus on personal artistic vision. Bioware games don't have any social commentary behind their inclusion of gay people, they're literally repackaged and retextured KotOR with some pandering thrown in.

[Psyren]

And then again, it barely has dialogue and your character is always the same knight guy. Also, I couldn't care less about what some e-celebs say.

Thankfully, it doesn't matter what you care about. You said "You don't see people call X a WRPG" - all I need is a single counterexample (including myself) to prove you very wrong.



Honestly, if you're digging that far back into gaming history you may as well bring up Bartz, whose game's job system prides itself on letting you play a whole mishmash of classes and people even play challenge runs where they completely randomize jobs available to them. Said job system is emulated in a ton of jRPGs and erring much, much more on customization's side.

On this I happen to agree, FFV's hugely customizable job system brings it closer to the WRPG end of the spectrum. It's one of the reasons I like that particular installment so much. It is sadly a minority among the FF titles though.



The wooden, incoherent dialogue options and the way how turning down a romance can screw over your friendship/rivalry meter has me beg to differ. Anders glues himself to my Hawke from the start, I help him out with his quest and try to be supprotive, he goes "I love you", I don't care for that, and my meter drops.

You know those giant hearts that appear with some of your dialogue choices? You know you don't actually have to choose those options, right? Do you always select options in games without looking at them? What did you think a big heart meant, platonic friendship or indifference?



So, magically, 9 years ago, nobody cared for the inclusion of a homosexual character in an AAA title. Now they do.
Given how panned ME3 and DA2 were, a lot of their remaining fans being the ones benefitting from the breadth of romance options, maybe JE would have been more popular if someone took a stand for poor Sky's bisexual nature? But no, nobody cared to notice that.

Nobody noticed JE period, not in a commercially significant way anyway. Hence us not getting a sequel after all this time, though hopefully that will change one day.

The "lazy gamers" line I won't dignify with a response.

[Winthur]

Thankfully, it doesn't matter what you care about. You said "You don't see people call X a WRPG" - all I need is a single counterexample (including myself) to prove you very wrong.
Thankfully, it doesn't matter what you or they say.




On this I happen to agree, FFV's hugely customizable job system brings it closer to the WRPG end of the spectrum. It's one of the reasons I like that particular installment so much. It is sadly a minority among the FF titles though.
FF titles aren't the only jRPGs.



You know those giant hearts that appear with some of your dialogue choices? You know you don't actually have to choose those options, right? Do you always select options in games without looking at them? What did you think a big heart meant, platonic friendship or indifference?
Hooray, color-coded dialogue trees instead of actual responses. The big heart responses are often not even particularly flirtatious or inviting in nature. So I can either be indifferent towards Anders and not care for his well-being like a good team captain, or I can send him blatant signals. Great writing.



Nobody noticed JE period, not in a commercially significant way anyway. Hence us not getting a sequel after all this time, though hopefully that will change one day.
But it was so progressive! How come nobody cared?

[Psyren]

Hooray, color-coded dialogue trees instead of actual responses. The big heart responses are often not even particularly flirtatious or inviting in nature. So I can either be indifferent towards Anders and not care for his well-being like a good team captain, or I can send him blatant signals. Great writing.

You can max out friendship with anyone without ever hitting the heart options, so your false dichotomy between lust and indifference speaks only to your lack of awareness.


But it was so progressive! How come nobody cared?

Because there are other factors to game sales besides progressiveness, such as marketing? Who knew, huh?

[Winthur]

You can max out friendship with anyone without ever hitting the heart options, so your false dichotomy between lust and indifference speaks only to your lack of awareness.
Romance still has a bearing on those things - you said it doesn't - even if you can achieve that through other means doesn't change that fact


Because there are other factors to game sales besides progressiveness, such as marketing? Who knew, huh?
Who would have known that a game isn't worth LGBT community's attention because it isn't popular?
Apparently, the whole industry wasn't worth this sort of attention until it became more mainstream.

[Jayngfet]

Nobody noticed JE period, not in a commercially significant way anyway. Hence us not getting a sequel after all this time, though hopefully that will change one day.

The "lazy gamers" line I won't dignify with a response.

Maybe I'm just jaded, but no way in hell do I want a sequel after all this time. The people most passionate about it have long since left Bioware and even a token imported save is probably too much to ask for two generations later. It'd basically be TOR all over again.

And while Winthur doing his thing, he is kind of making a point in a really agressive and overly roundabout way. That is to say Bioware's priorities shifted and the gameplay has long since taken a backseat. Most of what I hear out of Inquisition is about romance options and Bioware is leaning on that more and more heavily. It's not that there are romance options or that some characters swing both ways, or in one specific way, but it's that they make a way bigger deal out of it than it should be and keep focusing on that while clearly ignoring other issues with their games.

I mean I don't care if I can have angry, hateful sex with Morrigan, just at least give warriors and rogues two different helmet styles in your promo art. Make your gameplay trailers filled with actual gameplay instead of prerendered bits and talking heads. Sell me on the idea that this is a video game, not a movie where you can kinda sorta play dressup on the main character.

[Psyren]

Romance still has a bearing on those things - you said it doesn't - even if you can achieve that through other means doesn't change that fact

But the romance itself has no impact on the story, which is what I said. Rather, it is your status of friendship or rivalry with the character that changes the outcome, and whether you have a romance with that character is incidental, as it should be. For example, in Act 2, all of the outcomes concerning Isabela can be obtained without romancing her. You are never missing important content due to that decision one way or another. Similarly, with Anders in Act 3, you do not get a different set of choices with a romanced Anders vs. a non-romanced one; just an additional dialogue option that affects nothing.



Who would have known that a game isn't worth LGBT community's attention because it isn't popular?
Apparently, the whole industry wasn't worth this sort of attention until it became more mainstream.

It's more that the percentage of the "LGBT community" that (a) owned an original XBox, (b) played WRPGs and (c) knew about this (poorly-marketed) game's existence was too small for them to be a factor in its financial success. Remember too that during that console generation in particular, the XBox was bringing up the rear while the PS2 dominated.

[banana-for-ever]

Didn't play the second one but my friend said don't. Apparently it's bad, compared to the first one or not.

[shadow_archmagi]

Re: Original Post:

Yeah sure, if you can get it on discount. People freaking loved Dragon Age 1, so discount 90% of the vitriol as being fans disappointed the sequel was a step back instead of forward.

DA2 admittedly has some weirdnesses, some frustrating stuff, some cut corners, that sort of thing, but it's an alright game for all that.



Re: Romances:
Fallout 2 what

Like, don't get me wrong, I love the fallout games, but they are not the example you want to use here. If I recall, isn't the only marriage in Fallout 2 a shotgun wedding to an NPC you just met?

[Avilan the Grey]

Re: Original Post:

Yeah sure, if you can get it on discount. People freaking loved Dragon Age 1, so discount 90% of the vitriol as being fans disappointed the sequel was a step back instead of forward.

DA2 admittedly has some weirdnesses, some frustrating stuff, some cut corners, that sort of thing, but it's an alright game for all that.


Oh there's more to it.

Again, if you look at the sales curve, you see that 90% of the sales of DA2 was pre-orders and day one sales. Then the curve bottomed and stayed at virtually zero sales. The thing, though, is that all those pre-orders were many many people playing DA:O and expecting DA2 to be similar, so in total DA2 sold a lot. (Compare the DA:O sales curve that even INCREASED in sales again after week 3 due to word of mouth).

The biggest disappointment with DA2 (not for me, but for the average DA:O player) is that it wasn't even a spiritual successor to DA:O. DA:O was directly marketed as the spiritual successor of the Baldur's Gate games (to be fair this is why it as started back in 1998(?), after Bioware lost the rights to use / didn't want to be bound by the Dungeon And Dragons ruleset (depending on who you ask)). It was basically meant to be Not!Baldur's Gate in Not!Forgotten Realms (Bioware worked on this game a LOOOONG time). The thing is that Bioware then, after having HUGE sales, decided to instead go the Diablo way with the sequel, with fast hack and slash combat, ridiculous BodySplotions, and other "console teenager" stuff. Because the original audience will buy the game anyway "because they are slaves to our products because we are Bioware dammit". Or something.
In any even Bioware (or EA) COMPLETELY misread their core audience.

So in short, the core audience said "Frakk you" and bought some other game.
Also there were other problems of course, like a severely rushed schedule, non-existing plot, and a story (put loosely) that was COMPLETELY OPPOSITE of what it was marketed as.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Stay away from it unless you enjoy mediocre RPGs with cringeworthy romance options.

Well, I have replayed Jade Empire several times...

But I refuse to buy anything published by EA so I can only play newer Bioware games when I have access to a friend's stuff. I liked the opening to DA2, then got a lot less interested when I was told that your sister gets kidnapped early and that the opening isn't much like the rest of the game.


Whose RPGs are doing romances better?

Intelligent Systems did it okay in a way I found more fun than any Bioware game. The Witcher did it okay until the woman I chose started acting slightly differently and I started noticing some obvious holes where lines didn't change if you'd chosen another one (don't know if the enhanced edition fixed that).

Only time Bioware really did an amazing romance was the Shadow Broker DLC.



Also, if 'games are art' (a sentiment I vehemently disagree with), then they shouldn't be interferred by minority groups or pandered to because of "my personal feelings" and instead should focus on personal artistic vision.

Art doesn't need 'vision'. If you saw a big ugly heap of rubbish put in the middle of your town highstreet you'd want it removed. There's plenty of justification for offensive art to be altered. Technically unless I ask the artist to choose where in my house to hang a picture I'm altering it because the space/light can have a pretty big effect.



You know those giant hearts that appear with some of your dialogue choices? You know you don't actually have to choose those options, right? Do you always select options in games without looking at them? What did you think a big heart meant, platonic friendship or indifference?

Those really mess with your ability to express yourself.

That was what really annoyed me in Jade Empire. The moment I chose a snarky option with Silk fox because I felt like my character would say it, the romance broke.

Or that time I flirted with some random girl/Jacob on the Normandy and all of a sudden Liara hates me/her picture is face down in ME 3/2.

Jade Empire is the only Bioware game with a menage e trois option. Things have really gone down hill since then :smallwink:

Of course what really sucks (worse than the fact they they're basically 'nice guy' fantasies) about Bioware romances is the fact that they're romances, not relationships. You get into the man/woman/golem's pants and that's the end of the story really (hence why I like Shadowbroker but ME3 didn't live up to the promise). I'd rather have an RPG where they told me from the first scene that I had a girlfriend and then I had a lot of options for interacting with her than a thousand men/women/trees/rocks/nuclear holocausts/small fuzzy thing to choose from who would then just call interact with me in the same way except with 'darling' threaded into the dialogue.

For example, I could choose to be so lovey dovey the rest of the party would plot to murder us in our sleep from annoyance, or it could be love/hate, or s/m but in a more tender way, or I could choose which one of us was using the other as an emotional crutch. Or she could have severe psychological trauma and I could have multiple ways to approach this problem, from just telling her to man up, or being very supportive, or exploit her weaknesses to control her or whatever. I'm just saying that the way they give you options are very narrow and tiresome when there are so many other interesting ways to introduce choice to a RPG's story.

Its messed up that I have a hundred choices for how I kill people but less choice over who I kill and a lot of choice over who I love but little choice over how I love.

In a way, Jade Empire came close a bit with its choice of closed fist/open palm romances. Then screwed it over because choosing a open palm option after mostly being closed fist would leave you alone in your tent.

I don't actually have much of a problem with Bioware romances, but my mother reads terrible Mills and Boon novels that she admits are bad just because she's addicted to reading and libraries have tons of that sort of thing, so that's probably influenced me on that front.

[Psyren]

Intelligent Systems did it okay in a way I found more fun than any Bioware game.

Who?

The Witcher series is on my to-play list, whenever I get around to them.



Those really mess with your ability to express yourself.

On the contrary, they help you. You know when being stern or glib won't hurt a romance because of it. Like Hawke's hilarious "sandwich" line shortly after bedding Anders.



Or that time I flirted with some random girl/Jacob on the Normandy and all of a sudden Liara hates me/her picture is face down in ME 3/2.

The perils of dating an information broker :smalltongue: I wouldn't be surprised if TIM is just plain auctioning off the footage of what happens on the Normandy.


Jade Empire is the only Bioware game with a menage e trois option.

False, both Dragon Ages have had one.



Of course what really sucks (worse than the fact they they're basically 'nice guy' fantasies) about Bioware romances is the fact that they're romances, not relationships. You get into the man/woman/golem's pants and that's the end of the story really (hence why I like Shadowbroker but ME3 didn't live up to the promise).

Also false, as Citadel, Leviathan and even Extended Cut proved. ME2 I'll give you on this front though, the sex scene really does pretty much finish things up.

[Giggling Ghast]

Might I note that this thread is also really old and the OP likely made up his/her mind a while ago?


False, both Dragon Ages have had one.

You couldn't have an orgy in DA2. Well, unless you count Anders/Justice, but I wouldn't.


I liked the opening to DA2, then got a lot less interested when I was told that your sister gets kidnapped early and that the opening isn't much like the rest of the game.

She doesn't. Bethany might get kidnapped during a short quest near the end, but that's it. :smallconfused:

[Divayth Fyr]

She doesn't. Bethany might get kidnapped during a short quest near the end, but that's it. :smallconfused:
I feel that part may refer to the fact she stops being a companion (while being taken away from you one way or another).

[Giggling Ghast]

I feel that part may refer to the fact she stops being a companion (while being taken away from you one way or another).

That's not really being "kidnapped," especially if she joins the Grey Wardens. And she becomes playable during the DLCs and in the ending.

[Psyren]

You couldn't have an orgy in DA2. Well, unless you count Anders/Justice, but I wouldn't.

Wanna bet? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvho7rb5vIk)

[Giggling Ghast]

Oh that's right, I forgot about Zevran/Izzy/Hawke. My mistake.

I would also note that, with the DA2 LIs, you don't "complete" the romances by sleeping with your partner. You complete them by forging a lasting commitment.

[Zevox]

Also false, as Citadel, Leviathan and even Extended Cut proved. ME2 I'll give you on this front though, the sex scene really does pretty much finish things up.
Also, DA:O, with Morrigan. Getting her into bed is much quicker and easier than with the other companions, but the romance continues after that, with her needing to come to terms with actually developing feelings for you, which she didn't expect to do. Potentially ultimately culminating in the Witch Hunt DLC, where you can convince her to let you come with her into the Fade to raise your child together.

[Jayngfet]

Of course what really sucks (worse than the fact they they're basically 'nice guy' fantasies) about Bioware romances is the fact that they're romances, not relationships. You get into the man/woman/golem's pants and that's the end of the story really (hence why I like Shadowbroker but ME3 didn't live up to the promise). I'd rather have an RPG where they told me from the first scene that I had a girlfriend and then I had a lot of options for interacting with her than a thousand men/women/trees/rocks/nuclear holocausts/small fuzzy thing to choose from who would then just call interact with me in the same way except with 'darling' threaded into the dialogue.

Thank you for summing up my own issues with Bioware romances. Though the whole nice guy fantasy is probably the root of it all. You lose any edge to your voice or wit whenever you talk to this one person, you shower them with expensive jewelry, and maybe months down the line they hop into the sheets with you once and that's the end of it.

I mean Dragon Age 2 is probably the worst of it. You know your significant other for ten years and nothing comes of it.

[Giggling Ghast]

I mean Dragon Age 2 is probably the worst of it. You know your significant other for ten years and nothing comes of it.

Six, technically. And you're really only together for about three.

But what would come of it? Marriage and children? Three of the LIs are dealing with some personal lissues that make that an impossibility until the end of Act 3 and Anders can't have children.

[Zevox]

Six, technically. And you're really only together for about three.

But what would come of it? Marriage and children?
Possibly. Would depend on the character in question, though - Isabella needs coaxing during the final portion of the game just to get her to consider a relationship more serious than casual sex, so she'd be out for such a development. And Sebastian is specifically a chaste marriage anyway. I could see it with the others though.

Taking romances further than they have thus far would be a good idea for Bioware to do in the future, honestly. DA2 would've been a good one for it, though with its rushed development surely such a thing would've been cut even if they had considered it. Maybe if they ever do another game with a multi-year structure though.

[Giggling Ghast]

I think they would probably scuttle the romances first. They want to keep the romance content as optional, and a sizeable percentage of their player base actually doesn't bother with it. Raising a family really should be the focus of a story, not an afterthought.

[Jayngfet]

I think they would probably scuttle the romances first. They want to keep the romance content as optional, and a sizeable percentage of their player base actually doesn't bother with it. Raising a family really should be the focus of a story, not an afterthought.

Which would be great, if Bioware would actually treat it like an afterthought. At this point the fifteen minutes of conversation per playthrough get equal or greater attention compared to combat or other mechanics.

Either downplay the bits you won't commit to or give those segments resources worth the money. Talking them up from the earliest promotional periods just puts a focus on how much isn't there.

[Psyren]

I think they would probably scuttle the romances first. They want to keep the romance content as optional, and a sizeable percentage of their player base actually doesn't bother with it. Raising a family really should be the focus of a story, not an afterthought.

This. Besides which, more romance content is a selling point for DLC (which is also optional.) Citadel wouldn't have been nearly as popular if it was just a combat arena.


Which would be great, if Bioware would actually treat it like an afterthought. At this point the fifteen minutes of conversation per playthrough get equal or greater attention compared to combat or other mechanics.

Either downplay the bits you won't commit to or give those segments resources worth the money. Talking them up from the earliest promotional periods just puts a focus on how much isn't there.

There are plenty of people satisfied with what we do get. I see way more YT videos dedicated to the romance dialogue than to, say, combat builds.

Not to mention they're already creating exponentially more content for themselves even with what they do get. Hawke alone will need 8 romances worth of content in DAI just for all of the potential permutations.

[Mx.Silver]

Re: Romances:
Fallout 2 what

Like, don't get me wrong, I love the fallout games, but they are not the example you want to use here. If I recall, isn't the only marriage in Fallout 2 a shotgun wedding to an NPC you just met?
I rather got the impression Winthur was more interested in grinding an axe he was carrying than he was in the exact quality of the examples he employed in the process.



Who?
Intelligent Systems are the company behind the Fire Emblem franchise, among other things.



Also false, as Citadel, Leviathan and even Extended Cut proved.
Which it must be noted are two DLC missions you need to purchase in addition to the game and a late content patch that only got released after a fan outcry the likes of which had not seen since the original ending of Evangelion. If you finished the game before those were released (which the overwhelming majority of people did) then it pretty much was just over fairly early.

[Jayngfet]

Which it must be noted are two DLC missions you need to purchase in addition to the game and a late content patch that only got released after a fan outcry the likes of which had not seen since the original ending of Evangelion. If you finished the game before those were released (which the overwhelming majority of people did) then it pretty much was just over fairly early.

This. I mean lets say you liked Liara and romanced her in Mass Effect 1. In order to continue that romance in the next game you'd need to shell out an additional ten dollars for DLC that didn't come out until long after release. Then you get to Mass Effect 3, wherein half of her lines are written so they can happen regardless of if it's new or old, so it's not exactly fufilling. If you want to continue it with Citadel, you need to shell out another fifteen dollars. Oh, and wait another year since it didn't come out until that long after the games release and wasn't anywhere close to the top of Bioware's to do list, being the last of the three DLC packs with any real weight to them. Then there's the extended cut, where your love interest looks sadly at a plaque of your name for two seconds(which isn't even your name. It literally just reads "commander Shepard" because screw transcribing the info already written down).

For twenty five dollars by the time that last one came out, you could get basically the entire trilogy if you knew where to look. Heck, you can get the whole trilogy now for much cheaper, but the DLC has never lowered in price at any point. I've paid my cable and internet bills for less than Bioware wants me to drop for an hour with an alien computer girlfriend.

[Zevox]

I think they would probably scuttle the romances first. They want to keep the romance content as optional, and a sizeable percentage of their player base actually doesn't bother with it. Raising a family really should be the focus of a story, not an afterthought.
I don't think such a thing would hurt anything here. I certainly don't see how it would stop the romance content from being optional.

Even just taking it far enough that you and your partner have plans to start a family once the game's quest is over could be nice. Rarely does even that much happen - the closest that ever has is a Warden who convinces Morrigan to take him with her in Witch Hunt.


This. Besides which, more romance content is a selling point for DLC (which is also optional.) Citadel wouldn't have been nearly as popular if it was just a combat arena.
Extra romance content was just as small a part of Citadel as the combat arena was. What made Citadel great was all the extra interactions with all of your companions, current and old, not just the few parts that changed if you had romanced a character. Plus an additional combat mission filled with great banter, even if that was a distant second reason for people to enjoy it.

[Psyren]

Extra romance content was just as small a part of Citadel as the combat arena was.

You must be joking. The rescue, the casino date, the apartment dialogue, the character-specific dates around the strip (multiple dates per character in some cases, e.g. Jack and Traynor), dialogue from your LI during both versions of the party, dialogue from everyone else acknowledging the romance through both versions of the party, the group photo, the wake-up scene, and the goodbye in front of the Normandy - every last one of these contained romance-specific content. What else should they have done exactly, put waifu body pillows up in the Bioware store?

[Jayngfet]

What else should they have done exactly, put waifu body pillows up in the Bioware store?

Ok, just put the keyboard down and lets not give them any ideas, or else this is probably gonna get way uglier than it already has.

[Zevox]

You must be joking. The rescue, the casino date, the apartment dialogue, the character-specific dates around the strip (multiple dates per character in some cases, e.g. Jack and Traynor), dialogue from your LI during both versions of the party, dialogue from everyone else acknowledging the romance through both versions of the party, the group photo, the wake-up scene, and the goodbye in front of the Normandy - every last one of these contained romance-specific content.
And the majority of it was only small changes from if you hadn't romanced the character. By no stretch the main draw of the DLC, just one part of a strong whole.

[Psyren]

Ok, just put the keyboard down and lets not give them any ideas, or else this is probably gonna get way uglier than it already has.

Myeerhreeeeh. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comicsandcosplay/comics/critical-miss/9476-Mass-Effect-3-The-Process)


And the majority of it was only small changes from if you hadn't romanced the character. By no stretch the main draw of the DLC, just one part of a strong whole.

Considering that you don't even see some this content without a romance (e.g. the rescue defaulting to Liara, or Shep waking up alone) I disagree. Not to mention that for the silversun dates, they basically had to record every scene twice. And some of them did change pretty drastically, e.g. Garrus, Traynor, Miranda, and Jack using not just new dialogue, but a whole new set of new animations and even added models.

Don't assume all of that took no work until you have to make it yourself.

[Zevox]

Considering that you don't even see some this content without a romance (e.g. the rescue defaulting to Liara, or Shep waking up alone) I disagree. Not to mention that for the silversun dates, they basically had to record every scene twice. And some of them did change pretty drastically, e.g. Garrus, Traynor, Miranda, and Jack using not just new dialogue, but a whole new set of new animations and even added models.

Don't assume all of that took no work until you have to make it yourself.
My argument has nothing to do with how much work it took. My point is that you're overselling the importance of the romance content to the DLC's popularity. Citadel would not have been nearly so popular were it just the arena, no - but were it what we got just minus the romance-specific content? I think it would be pretty darn close to as popular. Some complaints about not taking romances into account would exist, but it would still be a very strong DLC that lets players spend time with all these characters they'd grown to love one last time, with a lot of good writing and fun moments, plus extra gameplay on top of it all. That overall package is what made Citadel as good as it was and as popular as it was, not the romance parts specifically.

[Psyren]

My argument has nothing to do with how much work it took. My point is that you're overselling the importance of the romance content to the DLC's popularity. Citadel would not have been nearly so popular were it just the arena, no - but were it what we got just minus the romance-specific content? I think it would be pretty darn close to as popular. Some complaints about not taking romances into account would exist, but it would still be a very strong DLC that lets players spend time with all these characters they'd grown to love one last time, with a lot of good writing and fun moments, plus extra gameplay on top of it all. That overall package is what made Citadel as good as it was and as popular as it was, not the romance parts specifically.

And I'm fine with saying that the squadmate content was the primary draw of the DLC. But saying the romantic content was on par with the arena in importance is what I don't agree with.

I'm even comfortable saying that, if Citadel had just been the same pre-baked squad conversations with no romance variation or content, people would have been disappointed in it overall.

[Zevox]

And I'm fine with saying that the squadmate content was the primary draw of the DLC. But saying the romantic content was on par with the arena in importance is what I don't agree with.

I'm even comfortable saying that, if Citadel had just been the same pre-baked squad conversations with no romance variation or content, people would have been disappointed in it overall.
Unless what you mean by "content" in that last sentence is the combat missions, I do not think we can agree on that. I seriously cannot fathom the romance-based portions of it alone being that important to the overall reaction to the DLC.

[Jayngfet]

Unless what you mean by "content" in that last sentence is the combat missions, I do not think we can agree on that. I seriously cannot fathom the romance-based portions of it alone being that important to the overall reaction to the DLC.

Or it's price point. I must reiterate the previous point. That is to say that the DLC costs almost as much as the actual game. More if it goes on sale.

For that cost I could go see two movies. Those movies having much higher production value and taking up about as much time.

[Avilan the Grey]

That's not really being "kidnapped," especially if she joins the Grey Wardens. And she becomes playable during the DLCs and in the ending.

You are right. "Forced to go to Mage!Prison or get executed" is not "kidnapped". It's worse.


Thank you for summing up my own issues with Bioware romances. Though the whole nice guy fantasy is probably the root of it all. You lose any edge to your voice or wit whenever you talk to this one person, you shower them with expensive jewelry, and maybe months down the line they hop into the sheets with you once and that's the end of it.

I mean Dragon Age 2 is probably the worst of it. You know your significant other for ten years and nothing comes of it.

First of all, that description is only true for Dragon Age (and 2, I guess, since I couldn't romance anyone that deserved it, I didn't) but for the original point... what's wrong with getting into someone's pants? And why do you think it ends there (In Baldur's Gate 2 and Mass Effect it certainly doesn't (well it depends on WHO you romance)). But my main queston is why is it wrong with romance? Sex is great.

[Psyren]

Unless what you mean by "content" in that last sentence is the combat missions, I do not think we can agree on that. I seriously cannot fathom the romance-based portions of it alone being that important to the overall reaction to the DLC.

"Variation and content" were both intended to be modified by "romance" in that sentence, i.e. "no romance variation or romance content."


Or it's price point. I must reiterate the previous point. That is to say that the DLC costs almost as much as the actual game. More if it goes on sale.

For that cost I could go see two movies. Those movies having much higher production value and taking up about as much time.

If you consider movies an equivalent experience, just go to Youtube for free and save even more money.


You are right. "Forced to go to Mage!Prison or get executed" is not "kidnapped". It's worse.

You can always make her a GW to avoid both of those fates.

[Zevox]

"Variation and content" were both intended to be modified by "romance" in that sentence, i.e. "no romance variation or romance content."
I figured as much, but was allowing the off chance I was wrong.

[Jayngfet]

If you consider movies an equivalent experience, just go to Youtube for free and save even more money.


You see, that's kind of the difference here. Visuals for features is an entirely different ballgame with entirely different specializations. The visual quality is just plain better since you're running it on 3d at movie theater quality instead of 1080p at best on some guys monitor, and you have more money to pack into less time. I have less reason to watch a movie on youtube than I do citadel's cutscenes and dialogue, presuming they take up the same time period.

The only reason a game is a sound investment is because of the fact that an AAA title can give you much more time for your dollar. But Bioware DLC usually doesn't, so it really is just more economical to see a movie.

I'm not against all DLC, mind you. Dawnguard for Skyrim was a worthy investment since it gave everything promised and everything drawn over an acceptable time period. Burial at Sea did the same. For DLC to be worth it, it's usually got to be way longer than Bioware typically offers.





First of all, that description is only true for Dragon Age (and 2, I guess, since I couldn't romance anyone that deserved it, I didn't) but for the original point... what's wrong with getting into someone's pants? And why do you think it ends there (In Baldur's Gate 2 and Mass Effect it certainly doesn't (well it depends on WHO you romance)). But my main queston is why is it wrong with romance? Sex is great.

It's less about inclusion and more the way it's treated. Sex isn't a product of the relationship, it's your reward. You spend months saying two words a day, and they're the "right" words, and then suddenly the clothes are off right before the game ends. That's how it worked in both dragon ages, the first two mass effects, and maybe the third but I haven't tried a new romance from scratch there.

It's less about the actual relationship and more about using sex as the end result. Which is what's meant by "nice guy logic": If I'm nice to this girl over and over then eventually she'll have to sleep with me!

[Avilan the Grey]

It's less about inclusion and more the way it's treated. Sex isn't a product of the relationship, it's your reward. You spend months saying two words a day, and they're the "right" words, and then suddenly the clothes are off right before the game ends. That's how it worked in both dragon ages, the first two mass effects, and maybe the third but I haven't tried a new romance from scratch there.

It's less about the actual relationship and more about using sex as the end result. Which is what's meant by "nice guy logic": If I'm nice to this girl over and over then eventually she'll have to sleep with me!

Let's just say I strongly disagree. Depending on what romance and how, of course, but in general (bear in mind I have not played DA2 with a romance option nor played Jade Empire at all) I don't see the sex as a reward (or more accurate the Goal) but a natural progress point.

[Winthur]

I rather got the impression Winthur was more interested in grinding an axe he was carrying than he was in the exact quality of the examples he employed in the process.

I honestly thought the F2 take on romance was way more tasteful than the one in pretty much any BioWare game (mostly because it was a short, pretty unintrusive episode, and you could get a kick out of it) sans, perhaps, Baldur's Gate 2 (where the writing wasn't great but adequate and certainly made, say, Viconia a fan-favorite), and it was BG2 that started this pretty useless trend. I find BioWare's take on romances and also their take on romancable characters (everyone becoming pansexual) to be pretty bad - I like it when character's sexuality isn't somehow tied to the main character to the effect of "we're a male and female (or male and male, or female and female), let's become an item". Fallout New Vegas does that nicely with Veronica and Arcade Gannon where you just don't turn them on, which is honestly a breath of fresh air. Also David Gaider thinks romances with dwarves are gross which is kinda hypocritical for someone so hellbent on inclusiveness.


And why do you think it ends there (In Baldur's Gate 2 and Mass Effect it certainly doesn't
Not a single romance in Baldur's Gate 2 ends with sex.

[Avilan the Grey]

Not a single romance in Baldur's Gate 2 ends with sex.

Exactly... speaking of which, though... I never finished Aeries romance, and I don't remember much about Jaheira's... Is Viconia the only romance where you sleep together at all? I honestly don't remember.

[Winthur]

Exactly... speaking of which, though... I never finished Aeries romance, and I don't remember much about Jaheira's... Is Viconia the only romance where you sleep together at all? I honestly don't remember.

Somewhere around the end of SoA, Aerie sleeps with you and gives birth in ToB.
Jaheira sleeps with you sometime earlier, think you even do it twice; the culmination of the romance in SoA is a visit from Terminsel.
Viconia sleeps with you very early on and continues to do so some more.
Anomen does give female CHARNAME the Delryn.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Never did a Romance in Baldur's Gate 2 despite playing through most of it at least 3 times, but I wasn't really complaining about that one. Or DA2 since I never got very far in it.

Haven't played the Citadel or Omega due to only having borrowed 3 and I've already praised Shadow Broker so bringing up DLC doesn't mean much to me..

Leliana definitely felt like I'd burned out all her content very quickly and now she was just another party member.


You couldn't have an orgy in DA2. Well, unless you count Anders/Justice, but I wouldn't.


Sex with multiple partners isn't the same thing as a polyamourous relationship which is what you can have in Jade Empire.


She doesn't. Bethany might get kidnapped during a short quest near the end, but that's it. :smallconfused:

Forgive me for not perfectly remembering a conversation I had two years ago.

[Psyren]

For DLC to be worth it...

...the person buying it has to believe it is. That's all.


It's less about the actual relationship and more about using sex as the end result. Which is what's meant by "nice guy logic": If I'm nice to this girl over and over then eventually she'll have to sleep with me!

Rival romances, renegade romances and hardening (which has been around since JE at least) belie this assertion.

In Mass Effect, being nice is only part of it. Remember that the various LIs are attracted to you from the get-go, but you are their boss and an intimidating figure in the galaxy besides; what you have instead is a dynamic where you have to overtly let them know their interest is reciprocated, otherwise they are too shy to really say anything. It's about overcoming caution/shyness, not merely being nice for niceness' sake.



Sex with multiple partners isn't the same thing as a polyamourous relationship which is what you can have in Jade Empire.

True, it depends on which definition for MaT you're using. Some refer to just the physical act while others to the domestic living situation.



Forgive me for not perfectly remembering a conversation I had two years ago.

I'll never understand this attitude. If you don't remember something clearly why portray yourself as knowledgeable/authoritative when discussing it? Then someone who does know what they're talking about corrects you and they're the bad guy. :smallconfused:

[Mx.Silver]

I'll never understand this attitude. If you don't remember something clearly why portray yourself as knowledgeable/authoritative when discussing it?

The Bethany getting kidnapped line was part of a paragraph where he said that he'd only played the beginning of the game. Which is sort of the opposite of portraying oneself as being knowledgeable of the game, I would have thought.

[Psyren]

The Bethany getting kidnapped line was part of a paragraph where he said that he'd only played the beginning of the game. Which is sort of the opposite of portraying oneself as being knowledgeable of the game, I would have thought.

He said he was told about it, which means he didn't even get that far before drawing his conclusion.

[Closet_Skeleton]

He said he was told about it, which means he didn't even get that far before drawing his conclusion.

I didn't draw a conclusion. Did I say I had a conclusion? I've made lots of points and conclusions in this thread sure, but not about Dragon Age 2 which I've only admitted to having little knowledge of.

I didn't stop playing because I decided I didn't like the game, I stopped playing because I didn't have any access to it any more and no reason to buy it for myself. I actually talked about how I'd kind of liked what I'd seen of it.