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The Great Skenardo
2007-02-18, 02:47 PM
A solitary wagon drawn by a couple mules drags slowly along the road, kicking up clouds of dust. A solitary cloaked figure walks lightly alongside, and the faded sound of humming drifts through the still landscape The wagon is gaudy and painted in faded rainbow colors, and the legend "Talgot the Talented's Sublime Circus!" can barely be seen below the dust that settles over everything like a shroud.
The Bugbears were practiced ambushers, charging from the hilltop with clubs and axes at the ready, but they weren't prepared for what happened next. The hooded figure, taking notice, flung his cloak away, revealing a jangling costume of bright red and black cloth and a face painted bone-white with disturbing sworls of blue. Faster than the eye could follow, the strange man dipped a hand into a pouch at his waist and produced a handful of knives and clubs and vials and began tossing them into the air with fluid ease. Grugtooth the Basher fell victim first, clawing at the knife that had sprouted from his throat as he toppled over. Big Bub and Muknuk went next, consumed by two flaming vials. Hubru the Fearless, strongest and biggest of the bunch, charged towards the man so calmly juggling wicked-looking knives and clubs and, with a roar, latched his arms around him, pinning the strange man's arms to his sides.
"Puny Human! I'll crush the life from your lungs!" Hubru roared. The man simply looked up at the bugbear's livid face with eerie golden eyes and smiled.
"Funny Man, huh?" snarled Hubru, "I'll rip off your nose an-"


Infernal Juggler
{table=head]Level|Base Attack[br]Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0
|
+0
|
+2
|
+0
|Juggling 1,Adaptable Finesse

2nd|
+1
|
+0
|
+3
|
+0
|Endless Cascade

3rd|
+2
|
+1
|
+3
|
+1
|Juggling 2

4th|
+3
|
+1
|
+4
|
+1
|Delicate Touch

5th|
+3
|
+1
|
+4
|
+1
|Firey Show, Masterful Manipulation

6th|
+4
|
+2
|
+5
|
+2
|Juggling 3

7th|
+5
|
+2
|
+5
|
+2
|Unearthly Precision

8th|
+6
|
+3
|
+6
|
+3
|Quick as a Wink

9th|
+6
|
+4
|
+6
|
+4
|Juggling 4 Boomerang Backstab

10th|
+7
|
+4
|
+7
|
+4
|Deadly Artist[/table]

Juggling is a hallmark skill of performers and acrobats the world over, providing a display of amazing skill and coordination for the audience, and a living for the performer. Amidst this motley crew, however, are a few masters of the craft who have taken the training of a juggler and applied it to combat. Infernal Jugglers are tricky and deceptive opponents, and often don't seem to be an opponent at all until a rain of juggling clubs and knives descends upon her often bewildered foes. Some Infernal Jugglers act as assassins, using the pretense of a circus to travel and gain access to their targets. Others are simply wandering performers seeking to provide themselves with some security through their own skill, and a few view the deadly nature of their juggling as part of an elaborate demonstration of skill, something to be perfected through practice.
Hit Die: d6

REQUIREMENTS
To qualify to become an Infernal Juggler, a character must fulfill the following criteria:
Dex 15
Base Attack Bonus: +3
Skills: Sleight of Hand 8 ranks, Bluff 8 ranks
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Quick Draw

CLASS SKILLS
The Infernal Juggler's class skills (and the ability linked to each skill) are
Balance(Dex), Bluff(Cha), Climb(Str), Disguise(Cha),Escape Artist(Dex), Listen(Wis), Perform(Cha), Sense Motive(Wis), Spot(Wis), Tumble(Dex), Use Magic Device(Cha)
Skill Points per level: 6+Int modifier

CLASS FEATURES

Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: Infernal Jugglers have proficiency with all simple weapons, but gain no new proficiency with any type of armor.
Juggling(Ex): An Infernal Juggler has taken the performer's craft and turned it into a deadly discipline. As a move action, an Infernal Juggler may begin a cascade of up to three Diminutive or smaller inanimate objects. The usual choices are knives and clubs, but other objects (such as keys, stones and fruit) may also be used. As a standard action, The Infernal Juggler can shift her routine slightly and hurl one of these items as a ranged weapon with a range of 30'. This attack is treated as a Feint at a penalty of -4 added to the bluff check for each successive projectile per round.
An Infernal Juggler may maintain a number of items in her cascade less than or equal to 3+ her class level. Adding items to a cascade can be done with a move action.
The concentration required to maintain this cascade imposes a -2 penalty to AC while juggling.
At 3rd-level, and for every 3rd level beyond that, the number of projectiles that can be thrown per standard action increases by 1 to a maximum of 4 at 9th level.
The Infernal Juggler must have both hands free to use this ability.
If the Infernal Juggler is damaged while maintaining a cascade, she must make a perform(Juggling) check at a DC equal to the damage dealt in order to prevent dropping the cascade.
While Juggling, the Infernal Juggler may only wear light or no armor.

Adaptable Finesse(EX): At first level, an Infernal Juggler has learned to harness her natural dexterity beyond what others normally could. She can now apply Weapon Finesse to all simple weapons (including improvised weapons).

Endless Cascade(Ex): at second level, an Infernal Juggler learns to adjust her throws such that her projectiles return to her. Any projectile thrown by an Infernal Juggler may be treated as if it had the returning special ability, at the Infernal Juggler's option. This ability does not actually confer magical power to the projectile, but is instead a hallmark of the Infernal Juggler's skill.

Delicate Touch(Ex): Starting at 4th level, an Infernal Juggler gains the ability to handle things that would ordinarily be too dangerous to juggle. She can now incorporate fragile items such as flasks of Alchemists' Fire and Thunderstones into her cascade without breaking them. These items may be flung as part of a Juggling attack with a range increment of 30'. Note that if an Infernal Juggler drops her cascade then these items affect her as if thrown into the square she occupies.

Fiery Show(Su): starting at 5th level, an Infernal Juggler learns to tap into an internal reserve of power. Once per round, any projectiles the Infernal Juggler flings burst into magical flames. These weapons may be treated as if they had the flaming special ability. This ability is usable a number of times per day equal to half the Infernal Juggler's class level plus her Charisma modifier (+0 minimum)

Masterful Manipulation(Ex): At 5th level, the Infernal Juggler gains greater mastery of her craft in battle. She no longer suffers the -2 penalty to AC while maintaining a cascade, and starting a cascade can now be combined with a move action. Furthermore, an Infernal Juggler can maintain a cascade even while running.

Unearthly Precision(Ex): at 7th level, An Infernal Juggler's eyes take on a slightly yellow glow as her vision becomes supernaturally sharp. The Infernal Juggler gains Darkvision out to 30' (or adds 30' to any existing Darkvision). In addition, her ranged attacks ignore any thing but total concealment.

Quick as a Wink(Su): at 8th level, an Infernal Juggler gains the ability to act as if under the influence of a haste spell for a number of rounds per day equal to half her class level plus her Charisma bonus (if any). These rounds need not be continuous, and may be split up between uses as the Infernal Juggler sees fit. Activating and this ability is a free action.

Boomerang Backstab(Ex): No juggler enjoys being handled roughly while in the middle of an act. at 9th level, whenever an opponent successfully initiates a grapple on the Infernal Juggler, she can fling her entire cascade from herself all at once. Scything away and then returning, each of these projectiles attacks the grappler as if he were flat-footed. Roll a separate attack for each type of projectile. An Infernal Juggler cannot apply any extra damage to these attacks from her strength bonus, nor extra damage resulting from a flat-footed opponent. This attack counts as a swift action.

Example: Talgot the Talented, a Rogue 5/9th-level Infernal Juggler, is facing an otyugh. The Otyugh attacks and hits Talgot with a tentacle and immediately initiates a grapple. Talgot (who made his save to retain his cascade after the tentacle's damage) activates his boomerang backstab, and flings his entire cascade (3 medium daggers, 4 clubs, and 5 alchemist's fires.) Since Talgot had earlier in the round used his Fiery Show ability, the projectiles are all counted as being flaming. Talgot succeeds on his ranged attack against the Otyugh's flat-footed AC with the daggers and alchemists fire, but misses with the clubs, dealing 3d4 slashing+5d6 fire+8d6 fire damage to the Otyugh and forcing both Talgot and the creature to make a Reflex save or catch fire. Note that Talgot cannot apply his sneak attack damage to any of these projectiles.

Deadly Artist(Ex): At 10th level, the Infernal Juggler has reached the pinnacle of her unique art. Her skill is such that she can maintain a cascade with only hand free, and any weapon she throws is treated as adamantine for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. Furthermore, as a free action once per day, the Infernal Juggler may whirl her weapons around her such that all of her threatened squares are treated as if under the effects of a blade barrier spell (caster level 10th, REF DC 20 for half) until the beginning of her next turn. Lastly, the Infernal Juggler gains the ability, once per day, to fling her entire cascade at an opponent within 30 ft, as a Boomerang Backstab.


Suggestions are welcome!

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-19, 06:11 PM
EDIT: Pre-reqs changed to include quick draw instead of combat expertise.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-19, 06:51 PM
Some of the throwing abilities at level 10 seem maybe too powerful, but considering you really can't use magical items (much) with this, it's not bad..

Note that this won't penetrate magic DR...

Table error, you have 7/1 on BAB.

The blade barrier can always be up, so anyone who approaches takes 10d6?!

Feints as a free action with up to 4 attacks? Ouch.

Does haste give any bonuses to the number of objects juggleable, or throwable?

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-19, 07:11 PM
Hmm.. perhaps you're right. Deadly Artist may be too deadly. Perhaps the Blade Barrier ability can also only be used once per day.

EDIT: Also, the Feint ability of Juggling adds a successive -4 penalty to bluff. So, by the time the Infernal Juggler can make four attacks, it'll be at a -16 bluff.

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-19, 09:09 PM
EDIT: Reduced number of rounds for Quick as a Wink to half the class level +Cha modifier.

Myatar_Panwar
2007-02-19, 09:21 PM
Hmmm, seems pretty balanced to me, and I love the idea of it!

Proven_Paradox
2007-02-19, 09:26 PM
I could see this quickly becoming really, really powerful with a few enchanted short swords. I don't see anything about this class that excludes it from using small magical weapons, and in addition to that it gives everything returning in addition to that.

Note that the rest of this post is made with the thought of a character juggling three or so +4 short swords or something similar. If there's something in the class that actually forbids that and I just don't see it, disregard the rest of this post.

You need to make it clearer that each additional attack adds more to the bluff check penalty. I initially read it so that each attack simply had a -4 to the check, not that each attack piles that up.

I think Fiery show is a bit strong as is. Perhaps make it apply to a single projectile per use, or make it usable fewer times per day. 10 + uses of that as is a bit strong for my tastes.

Myatar_Panwar
2007-02-19, 09:34 PM
Well throwing +4 short swords isn't much different from shooting with a +4 short bow. And its alot cheaper to buy a +4 short bow than it is to buy 4 +4 short swords. Unless I'm misunderstanding something.

Edit: And a juggler can throw more weapons if her attack bonus permits, correct?

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-19, 10:17 PM
Throw, yes, but not part of the juggling attack. The fancy thing about Juggling is that it's a standard action that allows for up to 4 attacks. Her base attack bonus does not grant additional projectiles per round through juggling (although certainly for normal throws as a full attack).

Note: I'll fix the wording on the -4 penalties; I concur.

Fireball.Man.Guy.
2007-02-20, 10:33 AM
I say a special ability at one level increases the size of your objects. Otherwise you can't juggle chainsaws! *gasp*

And medium daggers are Tiny, I belive.

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-20, 10:40 AM
Really? This according to the SRD:
Height or Length |Weight
Tn 1'-2' | 1lb-8lb
Dm 6"-1' | .125lb-1lb

Hmm... The length is right, but weight? Let's check.
Daggers weigh 1 lb, a club weighs 3lb.

I think I would rather make it the exception to be able to use clubs than expand the size categories, for fear of rogues deciding to juggle rapiers.

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-20, 10:43 AM
EDIT: For Fear of Rogues deciding to Juggle Keen Rapiers

Also: Chainsaw idea is cool, but if that were the case, each "chainsaw" would have to count as two or three smaller items for the sake of balance. I think Juggling is a complicated enough mechanic as it is, at the moment.

Assasinater
2007-02-20, 10:55 AM
The flavor looks nice, except for Endless Cascade and the "treated as adamantine" part of Deadly Artist, which I had trouble putting them into the picture in my mind.

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-20, 11:01 AM
In the endless cascade, let your mind imagine a cartwheel of flying wood and steel supported by a capering harlequin. Now imagine a step in one direction, and a flick of a motley-covered hand. A wooden club flies from the cascade and strikes an advancing swordsman with a resounding *thunk*, rebounding into the air with a spinning pirouette before landing with ease back in the hand of the juggler, and just as easily incorporated back into the wheel.

The "Treated as Adamantine" part simply refers to her ability to put the club or knife or whatever with such speed and precision that it pierces or harms where an ordinary knife could not (meaning yes, a 10th-level Infernal Juggler could damage an iron golem with a wooden club. I think that adds some level of awesome, outside of the mechanical aspect)

Assasinater
2007-02-20, 11:29 AM
Hmm, I admit that I can imagine that, but not a dagger getting out of the wound it caused and back into the hand of the juggler. Maybe you should limit it to bludgeoning weapons only.

And for the second part, I believe you can manage to find a better ability/bonus to reflect such a skill, because damage reduction is kind of a solid thing, which represents (for example)that the mentioned iron golem's every part is built from cast iron, giving one no chance to pierce through that to find any substance softer behind it. I may suggest something like an increasing bonus to the Feint check for every attack you make, and/or the first attack of each round threatening a critical, or anything that can be a better example of pure skill.

Hypertext
2007-02-20, 12:35 PM
I think this is an awesome concept and you seem to have done a very good job putting it together. A friend of mine basically made the same character that you describe in your intro a while back but he used master thrower and we made up a juggling rule.

Great minds think alike! :smallsmile:

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-20, 12:49 PM
Hmm, I admit that I can imagine that, but not a dagger getting out of the wound it caused and back into the hand of the juggler. Maybe you should limit it to bludgeoning weapons only.

Once again, I feel that this would complicate the ability needlessly. How can any dagger be enchanted with the returning property? One pictures the knife whirring through the air and driving home with a fleshy *thunk* and then wrenching itself free in a manner similar to the club's return. Physically impossible, of course, but she's just that good :smalltongue:


And for the second part, I believe you can manage to find a better ability/bonus to reflect such a skill, because damage reduction is kind of a solid thing, which represents (for example)that the mentioned iron golem's every part is built from cast iron, giving one no chance to pierce through that to find any substance softer behind it. I may suggest something like an increasing bonus to the Feint check for every attack you make, and/or the first attack of each round threatening a critical, or anything that can be a better example of pure skill.
I'm leery of making it any easier to sneak attack with this class's abilities. Your suggestion probably makes more logical sense, but I'm focusing on the balance aspect of the class in this particular point (i.e. making it potentially useful even against super-hard enemies such as constructs that would otherwise shut her down completely. DR vs. other sources (Good, cold iron, etc.) are still problems) I don't think the compromise costs much in the way of awesome, however.

Assasinater
2007-02-20, 01:28 PM
I see your point, anyway, this is already good as the way it is, I just(as you said) tend to put realism in front of balance issues in general, but of course, this is a game to be played, and it has to be balanced for that reason. Good work.

crazedloon
2007-02-20, 04:54 PM
I have to say this is one of the coolest classes I have ever seen. It seams very cool but I just have a few notes.

The returning seams very cheesy. I understand that the class is focused around throwing but so are the master thrower and you donít even see it getting returning as chosen class ability.

If you ask me I like the idea of juggling knives but I would think it would much more interesting to reward using non-weapon items (like torches and other things) perhaps give them returning only with improvised weapons and or give them bonus damage with improvised weapons like a drunken master.

Other then that i like the idea. Well made :smallwink:

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-20, 05:01 PM
I have to say this is one of the coolest classes I have ever seen. It seams very cool but I just have a few notes.

The returning seams very cheesy. I understand that the class is focused around throwing but so are the master thrower and you don’t even see it getting returning as chosen class ability.

If you ask me I like the idea of juggling knives but I would think it would much more interesting to reward using non-weapon items (like torches and other things) perhaps give them returning only with improvised weapons and or give them bonus damage with improvised weapons like a drunken master.

Other then that i like the idea. Well made :smallwink:

I maintain that the returning aspect is one of the most integral parts of this class. The notion of juggling comes from maintaining a cascade despite the sheer number of things that you're keeping off the ground at the same time. The Endless Cascade allows the juggler to take this one step further by incorporating strikes into her routine after level 2. In a strictly crunchy sense, this also keeps her from needing a bag of holding full of knives and clubs.

As for improvised weapons, the advantage would be the ability to be almost instantly armed no matter where you perform, no matter how thoroughly the guards have searched you. When you can make a handful of apples, goblets and small stones into a deadly wheel of flaming projectiles...well, that's when you know you've achieved something special.

fleet
2007-02-20, 08:56 PM
I think we need to redfine a knife attack in this case. The juggler is not throwing a knife into you. Instead the juggler would be grazing you with a knife as part of the knifes arc through the air. Awsome class btw.

Fireball.Man.Guy.
2007-02-20, 09:30 PM
As for improvised weapons, the advantage would be the ability to be almost instantly armed no matter where you perform, no matter how thoroughly the guards have searched you. When you can make a handful of apples, goblets and small stones into a deadly wheel of flaming projectiles...well, that's when you know you've achieved something special.

Exactly. Whiich is why they should get them.

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-20, 10:04 PM
But the trade-off for seeming innocuous is using a slightly-inferior weapon. I think that the penalties should still apply for using improvised weapons, because no matter how good you are, a dagger does more than a peach when thrown at someone. If you think about it, the situations in which you would need to use improvised weapons at all (assassination, infiltration, etc.) are all cases where the -4 penalty to hit is less likely to make a difference (Hopefully your opponent should be less (if at all) armored).

The bottom line is that you can use improvised weapons, but the standard penalties for damage and such should apply. I'd need more convincing before I'd change that aspect.

Besides. Isn't it awesome enough that you could damage an iron golem by throwing peaches at it? Why make it any easier?

crazedloon
2007-02-20, 10:56 PM
Besides. Isn't it awesome enough that you could damage an iron golem by throwing peaches at it? Why make it any easier?
Lol that is one way of putting it and it is very true but if you can assume that your juggler can bounce a knife off of someone with enough force to deal damage and come back to them then I can easily see them being able to throw that peach at an eye or other particularly vital spot and that they have done it often enough to be able to ignore the normal weirdness that a character should have using such an item. The -4 is on the attack role because it is weird to use such items as weapons not because they are less effective. The less effective comes into play with the damage.

Itís much the same way a drunken master is good at using improvised weapons because they get in bar fights more often your excuse is that you are often seen juggling fruit or torches or some other non-weapon item and then lash out with them.

Just my .02 (not trying to force a change just think it would be flavorful and not to cheesy)

Raum
2007-02-20, 11:27 PM
I like most of it, but a couple of the abilities such as returning and adamantine start to kill verisimilitude for me. Conferring adamantine qualities on weapons doesn't even seem to fit the class flavor.

One other question, with rogues being the likely entry class have you considered keeping some form of the Sneak Attack ability? It'd be fairly easy to replace things like returning and adamantine with an extra d6 of SA. SA also helps surpass damage resistances when you're not necessarily using magic weapons.

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-20, 11:32 PM
The thing to note about the juggling attack is that each attack is potentially a sneak attack (albeit less likely as you go along; they start to catch on after a while).
Monk is another interesting possibility as a stepstone to this class.

Annarrkkii
2007-02-27, 12:24 PM
I really like it. I occasionally imagined what it'd be like to fight by juggling. Really impractical, of course, but cool anyway.

The class seams sound, but I would eliminate the endless cascade. It just doesn't make sense. You can justify a dagger returning if it's magical, but I just can't see a juggler pulling it off with everything that comes to hand. I say that if you insist on using the ability, make sure it's supernatural (meaning it doesn't work inside anti-magic fields), or have any attack with it deal bludgeoning damage, even if you're using knives.

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-27, 12:31 PM
The class seams sound, but I would eliminate the endless cascade. It just doesn't make sense. You can justify a dagger returning if it's magical, but I just can't see a juggler pulling it off with everything that comes to hand. I say that if you insist on using the ability, make sure it's supernatural (meaning it doesn't work inside anti-magic fields), or have any attack with it deal bludgeoning damage, even if you're using knives.

Hm. A supernatural ability perhaps. I still think the idea of the things you throw coming back to you is a vital part of the "feel" of this class. Otherwise you're just making a Master Thrower that's an incorrigable showman.

oliana0
2007-02-27, 01:11 PM
I find watching juggling fascinating. Perhaps for each round the juggler participates in juggling without engaging in an attack, they can fascinate a certain HD of beings (who can see and be fascinated).

Also, two jugglers in the same room are infectious. If two (or more) infernal jugglers are within passing range (30'?) they can enter into a pass routine. The passers can then do something special, like improved feint (+2 to feint checks), the jugglers will all be immune to flanking, and AoO would be provoked if an attacker approaches one of the jugglers (the AoO would be delivered by the juggler making the passes to the one that is approached).

Or maybe everyone in a pass routine can use the highest "Juggling" special attack rate at a penalty of everyone in the routine using the lowest Perform(juggling) skill. :)

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-27, 01:16 PM
I find watching juggling fascinating. Perhaps for each round the juggler participates in juggling without engaging in an attack, they can fascinate a certain HD of beings (who can see and be fascinated).
I would agrue that the second-most likely progression to this class (Bard) already allows for this as a part of bardic music.


Also, two jugglers in the same room are infectious. If two (or more) infernal jugglers are within passing range (30'?) they can enter into a pass routine. The passers can then do something special, like improved feint (+2 to feint checks), the jugglers will all be immune to flanking, and AoO would be provoked if an attacker approaches one of the jugglers (the AoO would be delivered by the juggler making the passes to the one that is approached).

Or maybe everyone in a pass routine can use the highest "Juggling" special attack rate at a penalty of everyone in the routine using the lowest Perform(juggling) skill. :)
This to me sounds like an interesting (and higher-powered) version of Aid Another. It's definitely an attractive idea (and sound in balance), but I worry about throwing in too many abilities and granted powers out of enthusiasm for the concept. I'll think about it, though, definitely.

oliana0
2007-02-27, 01:19 PM
Oh! And if they surround an enemy, the enemy will take damage if they try to leave the passing routine, in addition to any damage they may take from getting stuff thrown directly at them.

And perhaps, you can save Endless cascade for multple juggler situations?

I was thinking bards would be great at this. Maybe if they are also singing they can add a perform(sing) to their perform(juggle) checks. Maintaining a beat is half of juggling.

Oh, and knowing how to throw a peach just right makes sense there is no -4 penalty, but really, the damage from a peach should be like 0, unless it's a crit (face shot) and then 1.

oliana0
2007-02-27, 01:20 PM
See, now I'm just having fun.

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-27, 01:26 PM
Oh! And if they surround an enemy, the enemy will take damage if they try to leave the passing routine, in addition to any damage they may take from getting stuff thrown directly at them.

And perhaps, you can save Endless cascade for multple juggler situations?

I was thinking bards would be great at this. Maybe if they are also singing they can add a perform(sing) to their perform(juggle) checks. Maintaining a beat is half of juggling.

Oh, and knowing how to throw a peach just right makes sense there is no -4 penalty, but really, the damage from a peach should be like 0, unless it's a crit (face shot) and then 1.

A special set of abilities for troupes does make sense, but I hesitate to make the class much more complicated than it already is. One possibility is to write up a few specialized feats for Infernal Jugglers only to take...but then it feels like you're making payments on having the class in the first place. Hmm.

viggo
2007-03-01, 10:25 PM
your answer there is skill tricks

The Great Skenardo
2007-03-01, 10:29 PM
Good point. That works nicely, actually.

Dragonus45
2007-03-11, 06:03 PM
I love the class. I think ill use this one with my multi class bard/rouge

ArmorArmadillo
2007-03-11, 09:25 PM
It's very busy, it's Ten levels of solid abilities and some of them seem pretty complicated.

Also, I don't see the connection to Infernal? All of the abilities seem pretty Alignment neutral; perhaps Jolly Juggler or Deadly Juggler

The Great Skenardo
2007-03-11, 11:39 PM
The Infernal part is mostly just for flavor. There's no actual connection to demons, but I wanted to emphasize that this class focuses on Combat.

(Also, I originally planned to give this class a much more disturbing bent, but I'm saving that for the next mod)

viggo
2007-03-13, 06:13 PM
like what, juggling the skulls of your enemies?

The Great Skenardo
2007-03-13, 06:23 PM
Something like that. The idea is a strange combination between a necromancer and a bard. This person would be a wandering motley madman, most likely following Nerull. The original Infernal Juggler would raise skeletons and zombies and the like, but have a few additional abilities: for example, the old Infernal Juggler would be able to use magic to tear the bones out of zombies (or simply disassemble skeletons), magically set the bones ablaze and then use them as weapons (i.e, skulls can become grenade-like weapons, later on a magical rib-cage can entangle or entrap enemies in a cage of bone, or even charging the bones with negative energy enough to make them briefly act as dancing weapons. All in all, much creepier and more prone to grim showmanship (think Kefka, if Kefka were also a necromancer).

Mr. Moogle
2007-04-02, 07:34 PM
dude thats a pretty creepy class

The Great Skenardo
2007-04-02, 07:43 PM
Thanks. I'm still working on 'fleshing' out the abilities.

Kyace
2007-04-02, 07:43 PM
One odd thing: this class doens't seem to get sleight of hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm) as a class skill, which, according to RAW, allows you to juggle. It might do to use sleight of hand instead of perform (juggling) as a requirement.

The Great Skenardo
2007-04-02, 07:47 PM
This is a very valid point. I will change the requirements accordingly.

ldcnuke
2007-04-03, 02:38 PM
with this class, could you, say, juggle diminutive creatures as well? (plot, plot, plot... scheme, scheme, scheme...) haha kidding, love the idea, I have been wanting to make a juggling character for a long time but it never worked without wasting skill points on a skill that is useless to an adventurer.

Eldritch_Ent
2007-04-04, 12:20 AM
Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Yaknow, I'm tempted to run this together with 5 levels of "Cat Juggler" or some other ridiculous Juggling PrC, or just do it alone with this one... Very nice class, if I haven't sad so already.

Mr. Moogle
2007-04-04, 01:47 PM
Cat juggler?

Fredderf
2007-04-04, 02:38 PM
I probably missed something, but pleas explain; according to the juggling ability the juggler can only juggle diminuative things as feint attacks. Why does the juggler in the example have daggers and clubs?

Mr. Moogle
2007-04-04, 02:40 PM
Aside from the odd cat juggling comment i think ill use this class for a new recouring villan in one of the campains im running

The Great Skenardo
2007-04-04, 02:44 PM
@Fredderf

This according to the SRD:
Diminutive objects
Height or Length |Weight
6"-1'_________| .125lb-1lb

I judge most daggers to lie within this range, although perhaps I should add the errata for clubs.

Kultrum
2007-04-08, 09:46 PM
hmmm... Bard lvl 5 w/ perform (juggle) +this class= bard that can do melee damage...
Sign me up!

The Great Skenardo
2007-04-08, 09:48 PM
The downside, of course, is that you forfeit progression with bardic music and arcane spellcasting. It's a carefully-measured trade-off.

Rnett
2007-04-10, 10:08 AM
Dude... This class is awesome! Have you thought of making any other circus troupe-y classes?

The Great Skenardo
2007-04-10, 10:09 AM
Certainly. Keep your eyes peeled for the next (slightly more disturbing) installment:

The Cruel Motley

Rnett
2007-04-10, 10:14 AM
I can hardly wait. First chance I get, I am taking this prestige class.

Umarth
2007-04-10, 10:28 AM
[QUOTE=The Great Skenardo;2058094]In the endless cascade, let your mind imagine a cartwheel of flying wood and steel supported by a capering harlequin. Now imagine a step in one direction, and a flick of a motley-covered hand. A wooden club flies from the cascade and strikes an advancing swordsman with a resounding *thunk*, rebounding into the air with a spinning pirouette before landing with ease back in the hand of the juggler, and just as easily incorporated back into the wheel.
QUOTE]

What if they miss?

The Great Skenardo
2007-04-10, 10:33 AM
It simply wheels around like a boomerang and returns.

Betagold
2007-07-16, 02:15 PM
What would I need weapon finesse in for this class?

The Great Skenardo
2007-07-16, 02:31 PM
What would I need weapon finesse in for this class?

If you meant exactly what you wrote the answer is that Weapon Finesse is a feat that covers all weapons that are light weapons, as well as a few exceptions; it needn't be taken for individual weapons.

If you meant "What would I need it for?"
The simplest answer is that it's a requirement for the PRC. The other answer is that most weapons you would use in your cascade also fall under the finessable weapons (i.e. daggers, cudgels, etc.), and you have to be prepared to use them in melee as well as in throwing.

Kan8
2007-07-16, 03:48 PM
Someone said earlier about 2 jugglers acting at once...If this was incorporated then let's say it works out to 30ft, the distance between the two Jugglers becomes there threatened area, and they can make attacks to anyone within this threatened area as though the target was flanked. This could also provide distraction to anyone caught within the area of the say, anyone trying to cast a spell must succeed on a concentration check (DC15 + Spell level) or lose that spell. Also there could be a chance that the person standing in the path of the jugglers could be hit randomly by the jugglers throwing to each other...Say a 30%/round to be targeted by a flying object, which would be a touch attack...Dunno how you'd decide which object it was though...

Still, Awesome Prestige Class.

The Great Skenardo
2007-07-16, 03:52 PM
That would certainly be interesting; I could see two jugglers combining a cascade to create a theatening/distracting line between them. My only concern is that the mechanic would complicate still further what is already a fairly complex ability. It's difficult enough as is to figure out the attacks of an infernal juggler without having to delve into the complexities of two jugglers (i.e. what happens if one juggler drops her cascade, or becomes entangled or if the line of sight is suddenly blocked...)

Kan8
2007-07-16, 05:29 PM
That would certainly be interesting; I could see two jugglers combining a cascade to create a theatening/distracting line between them. My only concern is that the mechanic would complicate still further what is already a fairly complex ability. It's difficult enough as is to figure out the attacks of an infernal juggler without having to delve into the complexities of two jugglers (i.e. what happens if one juggler drops her cascade, or becomes entangled or if the line of sight is suddenly blocked...)

Hmmm....When one drops there cascade, the IJ who didn't drop the cascade takes as many items as its possible for them to juggle from the cascade, and the rest is thrown at the IJ who did...There would need to be some way to randomly decide which items hit the juggler...But I can't think currently...

For Entaglement, or a hold person spell, it would be the same as above really, though still no ideas on how to decide what's thrown...

If Line of Sight was suddenly blocked then there's two possible things that could happen...Either it was blocked by a fog effect/darkness, or by a wall of some kind...In the Fog part of it then I'd say it should still be possible to juggle through it, although movement isn't allowed and generally a Perform(Juggling) check will be needed each round. If one of the Jugglers is completely covered by an area spell such as darkness, then they must make a Perform(Juggling) check to stop juggling, and failure results in them dropping there cascade. In the case of the other juggler, he may or may not know whether or not the other IJ is covered by the spell, and may or may not stop throwing things to the other Juggler. In the case of a wall randomly sprouting between the two jugglers (Or a huge creature) both Jugglers must make a Reflex save, passing this save means they stop throwing to the other Juggler in time to only lose half of there IJ levels of objects they are juggling (If that makes the slightest bit of sense, I'll be surprised...), failure of this save means they lose half of there IJ levels +2 of objects they are juggling before they manage to regain control of their juggled objects. Anything lost due to Line of Sight through physical means strikes the object that caused the Line of Sight to be broken.

All in all I think Dual Juggling would be another way to advance this awesome class, and if anyone can find a way to understand my rules for line of sight, I'll be amazed :smallconfused:

detrevnisisiht
2007-07-16, 06:41 PM
Wow. this is the strangest Prc i have ever seen.:smallsmile:


god i hope my DM oks it.

The Great Skenardo
2007-07-16, 06:44 PM
Hmmm....When one drops there cascade, the IJ who didn't drop the cascade takes as many items as its possible for them to juggle from the cascade, and the rest is thrown at the IJ who did...There would need to be some way to randomly decide which items hit the juggler...But I can't think currently...

For Entaglement, or a hold person spell, it would be the same as above really, though still no ideas on how to decide what's thrown...

If Line of Sight was suddenly blocked then there's two possible things that could happen...Either it was blocked by a fog effect/darkness, or by a wall of some kind...In the Fog part of it then I'd say it should still be possible to juggle through it, although movement isn't allowed and generally a Perform(Juggling) check will be needed each round. If one of the Jugglers is completely covered by an area spell such as darkness, then they must make a Perform(Juggling) check to stop juggling, and failure results in them dropping there cascade. In the case of the other juggler, he may or may not know whether or not the other IJ is covered by the spell, and may or may not stop throwing things to the other Juggler. In the case of a wall randomly sprouting between the two jugglers (Or a huge creature) both Jugglers must make a Reflex save, passing this save means they stop throwing to the other Juggler in time to only lose half of there IJ levels of objects they are juggling (If that makes the slightest bit of sense, I'll be surprised...), failure of this save means they lose half of there IJ levels +2 of objects they are juggling before they manage to regain control of their juggled objects. Anything lost due to Line of Sight through physical means strikes the object that caused the Line of Sight to be broken.

All in all I think Dual Juggling would be another way to advance this awesome class, and if anyone can find a way to understand my rules for line of sight, I'll be amazed :smallconfused:

Wall o' text. Just imagine writing that in a standard splatbook, and imagine all the DMs and players puzzling through that, and you understand why I'm reluctant to make it so complicated, as cool as it would be. :smallwink:

Zeta Kai
2007-07-17, 07:50 AM
Wall o' text. Just imagine writing that in a standard splatbook, and imagine all the DMs and players puzzling through that, and you understand why I'm reluctant to make it so complicated, as cool as it would be. :smallwink:

It's no worse than the mess that WotC made when they wrote down the Symbol spells. Each one is a nightmare of rules, & needs as full page to itself.

merge
2007-07-22, 12:08 PM
One little thing:

You can't really do a cascade with an even number of objects. Or rather, you can do some weird patterns that might be called cascades, but that's certainly not the most natural way to learn those numbers. More normal would be a fountain, or a shower (which works with any number).

Probably most people don't care, but jugglers might, and those are likely to be many of the people using this class.

lothofkalroth
2008-03-26, 09:43 PM
maybe a little broken, but really cool nonetheless, i like the boomerang backstab, but it almost seems like a spell-like ability all in all, awesome PRC, kudos :smallsmile:

The Great Skenardo
2008-03-26, 09:50 PM
Thanks for the comment. What strikes you as overpowered about it?

Ninjalitude
2008-03-26, 10:13 PM
Nice the fluff fits nicely with the crunch, I think that Mr. Moogle was right, it should have some more demonic aspects of it truly wants to be labeled 'infernal'

FatherMalkav
2008-03-27, 12:56 PM
I love this class, its' eerily like what me and a buddy are doing in a diff. game.

I'm a big fluff guy, so I have to agree to a renaming or readjustment of fluff. Also, the glowing eyes, what causes the glow? That's kind of supernatural, so i think it may need a source.

Some people have made comments about fascination or sneak attacks, and the likely classes being rogue and bard, what if it was an either/or class ability?

Also, what about juggling tiny creatures that were bound? Or a Large size IJ, can they juggle larger weapons?

Adumbration
2008-03-27, 02:26 PM
You know... About endless cascade. I think it would complexify it a bit more, but it would fit the fluff more. What if the piercing weapons - daggers, knives, etc - would only bounce back if their attack roll failed, bouncing back from the armor? Or even - like the skipping stone champion - they would bounce on to other enemies?

Another suggestion - maybe you could juggle vials of poison as well? You know, throwing a bottle of poison into enemys eyes or wounds could work, or the braking glass could work for wounding.

In any case, I like the class already. It's fluffy, and it sounds good without being too overpowering. Looking forward to your next class.

The Great Skenardo
2008-03-27, 02:37 PM
I love this class, its' eerily like what me and a buddy are doing in a diff. game.

I'm a big fluff guy, so I have to agree to a renaming or readjustment of fluff. Also, the glowing eyes, what causes the glow? That's kind of supernatural, so i think it may need a source.

Some people have made comments about fascination or sneak attacks, and the likely classes being rogue and bard, what if it was an either/or class ability?

Also, what about juggling tiny creatures that were bound? Or a Large size IJ, can they juggle larger weapons?

I imagine its source to be pretty much exactly the same source that allows the Infernal Juggler to spontaneously set her weapons on fire; something akin to the monk's pool of ki, etc.

Since each juggling attack counts as a feint, you could potentially sneak attack with each item you throw. Fascination is done through the perform skill, just as normal with bards.

Juggling unusual objects is really something for the DM to adjudicate, although I imagine that creatures would count as improvised weapons.
I didn't consider Large members of the class, although I see no particular reason why it shouldn't scale.
Keepin' me honest :smallcool:

Pie Guy
2008-03-27, 08:12 PM
If I were fighting against this, it'd be more like f**king juggler than infernal.:smallsmile:

AkazilliaDeNaro
2008-08-16, 01:16 PM
finally i have my jester now time to find a dream world yes yes phyco hands, bomb juggleing, giant hammer, wait what. lov'in it
to any and all who dont know what im talking about
It is gauntlet dark legasy

Kiren
2008-08-16, 03:22 PM
Its extraordinary, Theirs no force besides skill involved

Collyer-san
2008-08-16, 03:31 PM
Shouldn't it be possible for a roll of some kind at the higer end of the levels, to catch an incoming thrown weapon, and add that to the cascade?

Eldrys
2008-12-07, 10:36 PM
same idea as master throw, from complete warrior

Roland St. Jude
2008-12-08, 11:57 AM
Sheriff: This has been thread necro'ed enough. Please review the forum rules on thread necromancy.

Feel free to PM the OP with your comments.