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Suzaku
2007-02-18, 05:56 PM
I want to make a good cleric of Eilistraee but it seems everyone hates the idea because one novel character named Drizz’t. Now I haven’t read any novel Drizz’t was in, but from what I can gather from other people talking about him is that he’s emo. What’s the difference between an emo human with a different weapon (great sword, bow etc) and Drizz’t? My character concept is that she good natured drow with a cheerful attitude fighting the racist view of her race and spreading the faith of her church. She would take ranks in perform to dance around and sing and not be as gloomy as Drizz’t.

silverwolf
2007-02-18, 06:00 PM
becuse its such a old idea that common dms find it boring to rp with such chracters.....u relly want intresting... be a druid dwarf

oriong
2007-02-18, 06:01 PM
The main issue is that the idea of 'evil race X trying to bring good to the world despite the fear and hatred they suffer because of their evil kin' has become something of a big cliche. When you replace evil race X with 'Dark Elf' it becomes more so because of Dritzz and the many people who have tried to imitate dritzz (I don't mean simply create a good dark elf, I mean chaotic-good dark elf rangers with twin scimitars and a giant cat pet).

In an odd way you're like your character. You are attempting to throw off the reputation of your evil kin (those who mindlessly play the cliche) despite the fear and hatred of those around you : P

EDIT: This is not to say that your particular character is cliched, I know nothing about her after all other than alignment race and diety. A character, even a cliched one, can be good or bad on their own merits.

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-18, 06:09 PM
It's a bit of a long story.

Drizz't Do'Urden(sp?) is a CG Drow renegade of some sort who fled to the surface world and hooked up with an adventuring party that became the focus of many fanatsy novels and Console PC games in the Faerun campaign setting. Unfortuanately, Drizz't picked up a pair of magical scimitars and chainmail and eventually hit critical nerdy coolness mass, and as such spawned hundreds - nay, thousands of Drizz't "clones" - PCs who created CG Drow ranger renegades with very little to distinguish them from the actual Drizz't, and also which conveniently ignored the fact that Drizz't is special because he's CG - almost all drow being NE or LE. This cloning effect became even more prevalent when Drow became a playable race. Suddenly, drow renegades were everywhere (the irony being that generally a drow showing the least sign of disloyalty is executed long before he or she could effectively rebel.) The idea that there are now more drow "rebels" than actual drow is a fairly common joke, one seen frequently in webcomics like Order of the Stick.

Eventually, however, people lost thier infatuation with Drizz't look-alikes and have now grown fairly sick of the stereotypical "CG rebel of an evil race" (another offshoot - the slightly more creative players frequently did the same story with another typically villianous species - creating evil angels, good demons, and everything in between.) Now, unless it's the real Drizz't, people really don't want to see him running around in their campaings.

The character you propose is, unfortunately, a Drizz't clone. You have the misfortune of making what to you is a completely original idea despite the fact that it's been duplicated 8,000,000,000 times previously. So to answer your question, they don't hate your character because Drizz't is emo, they hate your character because Drizz't is everywhere, and they're sick of him.

Khantalas
2007-02-18, 06:11 PM
...almost all drow being NE or LE.

Beep! Wrong answer. Thank you for joining, and we do have lovely consolation prizes...

Almost all drow are CE, seeing how Lolth is CE, and how she encourages chaos.

Indeed, Jarlaxle is the only NE drow I can think of right now.

oriong
2007-02-18, 06:12 PM
Her character isn't a dritzz clone, anymore than a dwarf with an axe or an elf with a bow is a clone of legolas or gimli. Her character has a theme that predates dritzz by quite a bit, he was simply one of the most famous, and happened to choose the same race.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-18, 06:14 PM
Uh... Elistraeean drow exist in the Forgotten Realms. They're not Escaped Drizzt Wannabes. It doesn't sound like he's making a character who resembles Drizzt in ny way but "nonevil drow", which there are enough of in the realms that they've got a deity all to themselves.

Also, c'mon. Drizzt wannabes aren't everywhere. I don't remember the last time I saw a *good drow*, much less a CG drow ranger with two scimitars and a panther.

Matthew
2007-02-18, 06:14 PM
You also have to remember that Drow were more powerful than other Races (once fully fleshed out) in 2.x and had no actual disadvantages besides Roleplaying ones. So, Drizzt clones tended to not only be an annoying concept, but tended to be played by people who wanted to 'beat the system'. A lot of this is forgotten now that 3.x has LA, but that was a not insignificant part of the problem, as the kind of person who wanted to play a Drizzt clone was actually a bigger problem than the character. It was kind of a red flag as to what to expect from the player.

Dant
2007-02-18, 06:15 PM
becuse its such a old idea that common dms find it boring to rp with such chracters.....u relly want intresting... be a druid dwarf


Uh, Clerical Quintet. Also by Salvatore. With one of the main characters being a druid dwarf.
Of course you might already know about that and are just making a joke. I which case I'm just being dense.

silverwolf
2007-02-18, 06:16 PM
Almost all drow are CE, seeing how Lolth is CE, and how she encourages chaos.

Indeed, Jarlaxle is the only NE drow I can think of right now.


wrong once again... becuse there is a patheon of gods for the drow which are all various degrees of evil... rember theres the 4armed drow fighting god vevernus or something which is LE a few that are NL dealing with varoius forms of magic then you had the drow lich which followed some version of nurell

Khantalas
2007-02-18, 06:18 PM
Beep! All deities of FR drow pantheon are CE. Except Eilistraee, who is annoying and will be destroyed by Lolth, her subordinate deities and Ghanadaur.

Aximili
2007-02-18, 06:18 PM
I want to make a good cleric of Eilistraee but it seems everyone hates the idea because one novel character named Drizz’t.
Just do it. PLaying a good character of an evil race trying to change his reputation is something every player should go though anyway. Sort of a rite of passage:smallbiggrin: you can't consider yourself an experienced player until you've done that.

u relly want intresting... be a druid dwarf
Yes! And paint your hair and beard green. And make your beard go over your ears and join your hair in the back. And talk only through terms that strictly express emotions, like: oooooh, and hihihi.
Oh... and call yourself a doo-dad.
(sorry, as a fan of the bouldershoulders, I couldn't let that one pass).

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-18, 07:00 PM
Khantalas, I'm afraid the beeping will have to stop.

The Alignment entry for Drow in the MM1 (page 102) states "usually Neutral Evil." Bite my core sourcebook. Maybe it's different in the novels or other things, but it's awfully hard to have a government structure as organized and extensive as the drow race's if there's no extremely large group of lawful or neutral drow. Yes, Lolth is a chaotic diety, but I don't think a cleric has to follow her god's alignment precisely.

I'm terribly sorry to all the people who majored in Drizz't trivia for any details that I got wrong - I tried to be vague on the details for exactly that reason. Regardless, I was surprised at the number of people who completely missed my point. The details don't matter - the simplest reason why people would blame their dislike of the OP's post on Drizz't is because of the cloning effect, not, as the OP thought, because Drizz't is brooding/gloomy/dark/emo.

Khantalas
2007-02-18, 07:09 PM
Khantalas, I'm afraid the beeping will have to stop.

The Alignment entry for Drow in the MM1 (page 102) states "usually Neutral Evil." Bite my core sourcebook. Maybe it's different in the novels or other things, but it's awfully hard to have a government structure as organized and extensive as the drow race's if there's no extremely large group of lawful or neutral drow.

Gee, I'm sorry, Underdark. I'll stop basing the general alignment of Toril drow on your Alignment section under Drow in Races, where you say drow tend toward the chaotic end of lawful-chaotic spectrum. After all, a setting neutral book takes precedence above a setting specific book.

Right? :smalltongue:

The_Werebear
2007-02-18, 07:11 PM
I would put the drow at NE only because they alternate between LE and CE.

Lawful Evil:
-Huge Legal system which emphasizes draconian punishment for wrongdoing
-Strict and unbending caste system which systematically discriminates against half the species and all nondrow.
-Strict heirarchy of rank.

Chaotic Evil:
-Culture advocates ignoring the laws to do what you want to advance yourself.
-Culture advocates murdering your foe as the best way to solve your problems. In addition, if you pull a crime off sucessfully, everyone will congratulate you instead of punishing you.
-Chaotic Evil diety, who often personally shakes up drow society to watch the chaos as they struggle to handle the changes.

Totally off topic in any case.

To the OP: Tell them you are not emulating Drizz't, and work on not stealing the spotlight. Also, take a different response to prejudice than sulking and internal monologue. Prove them wrong and gloat, or buy them off, or argue with them. I suggest reading a Drizz't novel first to know what you need to avoid as well.

Khantalas
2007-02-18, 07:12 PM
In a legal system where breaking the law is encouraged if you can get away with it, there is really too much chaos for its own good.

Renrik
2007-02-18, 07:13 PM
My character concept is that she good natured drow with a cheerful attitude fighting the racist view of her race

This is why everyone hates your cleric idea.

You see, your character idea is a good one. Unfortunately, somebody else thought of it first. And wrote about twenty books based on it. And then every player on earth copied him, much to the annoyance of everyone DM on earth.

So really, everyone is REALLY sick of good-aligned drow of any type.

It's not really that we hate Drizzt or ever did hate Drizzt. Hell, he's a pretty damned good character. Sometimes he can get one-dimensional, sure, and he doesn;t really have enough in the way of major character flaws, and at times he seems like a Larry Stu, but we're willing tooverlook most of that because he's an okay character and he was original at the time he came out, and his existance allows for the existance of other, more well-made characters, with actual flaws and dimension (like Wulfgar and Artemis Entreri), that allow for an interesting story.

Of course, although Drizzt was awesome, all the cliched rip-offs of Drizzt weren't. And the majority of good drow are Drizzt rip-offs. So, naturally, every time someone sees a good drow, they assume it's a rip-off of drizzt, even if it isn't.

This whole scenario is the basis of the character Zztdri in OoTS, and the jokes surrounding him.

PirateMonk
2007-02-18, 07:13 PM
Khantalas, I'm afraid the beeping will have to stop.

The Alignment entry for Drow in the MM1 (page 102) states "usually Neutral Evil." Bite my core sourcebook. Maybe it's different in the novels or other things, but it's awfully hard to have a government structure as organized and extensive as the drow race's if there's no extremely large group of lawful or neutral drow. Yes, Lolth is a chaotic diety, but I don't think a cleric has to follow her god's alignment precisely.

I'm terribly sorry to all the people who majored in Drizz't trivia for any details that I got wrong - I tried to be vague on the details for exactly that reason. Regardless, I was surprised at the number of people who completely missed my point. The details don't matter - the simplest reason why people would blame their dislike of the OP's post on Drizz't is because of the cloning effect, not, as the OP thought, because Drizz't is brooding/gloomy/dark/emo.

Why is it so commonly misspelled Drizz't? Where did the apostrophe come from?
And, "organized and extensive government structure"? Seems fairly simplistic to me. Where did you get this idea?


Beep! Wrong answer. Thank you for joining, and we do have lovely consolation prizes...

Almost all drow are CE, seeing how Lolth is CE, and how she encourages chaos.

Indeed, Jarlaxle is the only NE drow I can think of right now.

Beep! Wrong answer. Thank you for joining, and we do have lovely consolation prizes...

Jarlaxle is CN, actually.

Khantalas
2007-02-18, 07:14 PM
Beep! Wrong answer. Thank you for joining, and we do have lovely consolation prizes...

Jarlaxle is CN, actually.

I assume you have FRCS. Have you read Menzoberanzzan section? Please do.

TheElfLord
2007-02-18, 07:15 PM
Beep! Wrong answer. Thank you for joining, and we do have lovely consolation prizes...

Almost all drow are CE, seeing how Lolth is CE, and how she encourages chaos.

Indeed, Jarlaxle is the only NE drow I can think of right now.

Nope, You have the wrong answer, take a look at the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#drow

It says that Drow are:


Usually neutral evil

Now, usually does not mean they all are, but it does mean that not almost all of them are Chaotic evil.

Edit, Wow, lots of people got to my point before me

The_Werebear
2007-02-18, 07:16 PM
I assume you have FRCS. Have you read Menzoberanzzan section? Please do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarlaxle

Wikki says he is CN, and I personally agree. He is the nicest drow with a personality I think there is.

oriong
2007-02-18, 07:17 PM
Wow this did not take long at all to derail did it? Yay for pointless trivia

Khantalas
2007-02-18, 07:18 PM
I'd say he's N, at that. But he's NE. Says the Wizards.

Silly? Complain to the Wizards.

TheElfLord, I was basing my opinion on a setting specific book. A book specific to the setting we're talking about. I'm insane like that, yes. Sorry for that.

Hey, almost all wasn't my idea. It was Jade's. I'd say "often chaotic evil". Seeing all those Driz'zt clones around.

The_Werebear
2007-02-18, 07:19 PM
When was that book written, before or after the most recent books about Jarlaxle?

PirateMonk
2007-02-18, 07:20 PM
Nope, You have the wrong answer, take a look at the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#drow

It says that Drow are:



Now, usually does not mean they all are, but it does mean that not almost all of them are Chaotic evil.

Edit, Wow, lots of people got to my point before me

I looked at your link, and nowhere did it say anything about alignment.

Renrik
2007-02-18, 07:20 PM
Look, exactly what alignment of evil drow tend to be doesn't matter as much as the fact that drow tend NOT to be neutral or good.

We know, of course that drow are evil because they are, as a whole, needlessly cruel and spiteful, going out of their way to hurt people even when no gain is apparent for doing so, and showing no moral qualms about perofrming unspeakable attrocities for profit, favor, or even just for sick and twisted amusement.

We can argue their being lawful in that they have a highly advanced society with strict heirerchal systems, a multitude of laws, and and a flare for totalitarian authority.

At the same time, we can make the argument for their being chaotic in that they don't really always follow the laws of their society, they worship a chaotic evil diety, and they have no particularly strong inner code of discipline and ethics.

Either way, they're something evil.

And, as such, good drow are an abomination that we must hunt down in the name of the all-powerful Spider Queen.

Khantalas
2007-02-18, 07:21 PM
I have no idea. I'd say before. Like, in 2001.

But hey, I haven't read those books. I was referencing whatever official stuff I had.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-02-18, 07:23 PM
Here is an example of a Drizzt ripoff: A CN-Drow decides to run from home, wields two scimitars, and has a giant cat for a pet. He has a name that has begins with a "D", is young, and is a bit of a Larry Stu.

Here is a more. . . interesting Drow: A Drow was orphaned at birth because he has a lame leg. He was taken in by some wood elves, who taught him the wonders of good, and he became a paladin. He is a champion for the elves and is pretty powerful, but his lame leg is a weakness at times.

TheElfLord
2007-02-18, 07:28 PM
I looked at your link, and nowhere did it say anything about alignment.

The link brings up a stat block, and one of the lines in stat blocks is the alignment line

Suzaku
2007-02-18, 07:30 PM
My character concept is that she good natured drow with a cheerful attitude fighting the racist view of her race

This is why everyone hates your cleric idea.

You see, your character idea is a good one. Unfortunately, somebody else thought of it first. And wrote about twenty books based on it. And then every player on earth copied him, much to the annoyance of everyone DM on earth.

So really, everyone is REALLY sick of good-aligned drow of any type.

It's not really that we hate Drizzt or ever did hate Drizzt. Hell, he's a pretty damned good character. Sometimes he can get one-dimensional, sure, and he doesn;t really have enough in the way of major character flaws, and at times he seems like a Larry Stu, but we're willing tooverlook most of that because he's an okay character and he was original at the time he came out, and his existance allows for the existance of other, more well-made characters, with actual flaws and dimension (like Wulfgar and Artemis Entreri), that allow for an interesting story.

Of course, although Drizzt was awesome, all the cliched rip-offs of Drizzt weren't. And the majority of good drow are Drizzt rip-offs. So, naturally, every time someone sees a good drow, they assume it's a rip-off of drizzt, even if it isn't.

This whole scenario is the basis of the character Zztdri in OoTS, and the jokes surrounding him.

Aside from being a good align character I don't see how my character resembles Drizz't. Martin L. King and Malcolm X were both people who supported the end of racism and African American suppression, by your logic they’re clone of themselves. Is Washington, Garfield, Taft, Clinton and W. Bush clones of each other? How about making a Kobold who’s good align a clone of Drizz’t?

Matthew
2007-02-18, 07:33 PM
Drizzt is spelled 'Drizzt'. Your character idea is not inherently bad, but Good Aligned Drow make everyone think of Drizzt.

MaxAtkins
2007-02-18, 07:38 PM
be a druid dwarf

there's one of those in salvatore's series as well....

Renrik
2007-02-18, 07:39 PM
Now, I never said your character was a Drizzt clone. In fact, I'm pretty sure I pointed out that it was a good idea.

Unfortunately, it's a good drow, and everyone hates good drow.

I was just trying to explain why people didn;t like your idea. I myself don;t dislike it so much. If properly played, with minimal Mary-Sueism and the right style, it could be a great character, and I encourage you to pursue the idea. Nonetheless, people won't like it.

(Also, M.L.K. JR and Malcolm X had incredibly different views on ending racism. Malcolm X was a great deal more extreme in his views. M.L.K. was not so extreme.)

(Of course, your character will probably be different from Drizzt in a like manner. Completely different style of character, even if the basic concept is the same.)

oriong
2007-02-18, 07:40 PM
Aside from being a good align character I don't see how my character resembles Drizz't. Martin L. King and Malcolm X were both people who supported the end of racism and African American suppression, by your logic they’re clone of themselves. Is Washington, Garfield, Taft, Clinton and W. Bush clones of each other? How about making a Kobold who’s good align a clone of Drizz’t?

There's a difference between real people and literary constructs.

Like I said, your character is not a dritzz clone, but it does share a lot of superficial features of drittz and there is a strong knee-jerk reaction to those features. I am sure your character is probably very different, but until you actually play that character and show people what the differences are they can't see beyond the superficial similarities.

For example, based solely on what you've told us about your character right now there are 4 things that differentiate her from Drittz:

1) she's female.
2) she worships a different chaotic good female god.
3) she's a cleric
4) she sings.

That's not enough to overcome the stigma of the similarities until you've actually shown the differences in game. That's where it matters.

PirateMonk
2007-02-18, 07:42 PM
The link brings up a stat block, and one of the lines in stat blocks is the alignment line

Um... no. It says:


Drow click to see monster

Also known as dark elves, drow are a depraved and evil subterranean offshoot.

White is the most common hair color among drow, but almost any pale shade is possible. Drow tend to be smaller and thinner than other sorts of elves, and their eyes are often a vivid red.

Drow usually coat their arrows with a potent venom.
Poison (Ex)

An opponent hit by a drow’s poisoned weapon must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or fall unconscious. After 1 minute, the subject must succeed on another DC 13 Fortitude save or remain unconscious for 2d4 hours. A typical drow carries 1d4-1 doses of drow knockout poison. Drow typically coat arrows and crossbow bolts with this poison, but it can also be applied to a melee weapon. Note that drow have no special ability to apply poison without risking being poisoned themselves. Since this poison is not a magical effect, drow and other elves are susceptible to it.
Drow Traits (Ex)

These traits are in addition to the high elf traits, except where noted.

* +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma.
* Darkvision out to 120 feet. This trait replaces the high elf’s low-light vision.
* Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels.
* +2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities.
* Spell-Like Abilities: Drow can use the following spell-like abilities once per day: dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire. Caster level equals the drow’s class levels.
* Weapon Proficiency: A drow is automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, the rapier, and the short sword. This trait replaces the high elf’s weapon proficiency.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, Goblin. This trait replaces the high elf’s automatic and bonus languages.
* Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area.
* Favored Class: Wizard (male) or cleric (female). This trait replaces the high elf’s favored class.
* Level adjustment +2.

The drow warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.
Challenge Rating

Drow with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level. Drow with levels in PC classes have a CR equal to their character level +1.

No alignment.

oriong
2007-02-18, 07:43 PM
That's why you scroll up a bit.

jjpickar
2007-02-18, 07:43 PM
I don't understand why dms hate Drizzt-like characters so much. I hated Drizzt as a character in every book he's in; I can just overlook his presence because I like reading Salvatore's writing. But I don't mind it when people play a character like Drizzt. Its better than what I usually do which is sit there like a dead fish and get talked over by the rest of the more seasoned roleplayers. This is why I prefer to DM.

PirateMonk
2007-02-18, 07:46 PM
That's why you scroll up a bit.

Okay. The link just takes you to the drow entry, with no information on alignment.

Matthew
2007-02-18, 07:57 PM
I don't understand why dms hate Drizzt-like characters so much. I hated Drizzt as a character in every book he's in; I can just overlook his presence because I like reading Salvatore's writing. But I don't mind it when people play a character like Drizzt. Its better than what I usually do which is sit there like a dead fish and get talked over by the rest of the more seasoned roleplayers. This is why I prefer to DM.

It's likely because it used to be accompanied by a certain type of undesirable player.

Thomas
2007-02-18, 07:59 PM
Uh... Elistraeean drow exist in the Forgotten Realms. They're not Escaped Drizzt Wannabes. It doesn't sound like he's making a character who resembles Drizzt in ny way but "nonevil drow", which there are enough of in the realms that they've got a deity all to themselves.

Also, c'mon. Drizzt wannabes aren't everywhere. I don't remember the last time I saw a *good drow*, much less a CG drow ranger with two scimitars and a panther.

Agreed on both counts. The whole "Drizzt clones everywhere" thing is just an old joke at this point. These days, it mostly seems to be clones of various anime characters.

Eilistraee's even a lesser deity (rather than just a demigod or something). She's even been around for some 30,000 years (drow have only existed for some 10,000), too, since she was apparently originally part of the Seldarine.


wrong once again... becuse there is a patheon of gods for the drow which are all various degrees of evil... rember theres the 4armed drow fighting god vevernus or something which is LE a few that are NL dealing with varoius forms of magic then you had the drow lich which followed some version of nurell

Selvetarm and Vhaeraun. Most orthodox Lolthians (Lolthites?) actually deny the existence of any other drow deities. (Including Selvetarm, who is Lolth's guardian and son, or something.) I don't recall their alignments, but I'd guess that only Vhaeraun is NE. (Don't know about Ghaunadar; the only reason he's in the pantheon, though, is that the Ilythiiri dark elves worshipped Ghaunadar when they turned evil, and before Lolth "found" them. He's actually deity of slimes, replacing Juiblex in Faerûn.)

And drow society is somewhat Lawful Evil (in fact, the standard drow alignment in AD&D was LE); that's the whole point of the Silence of Lolth (it's brought across very heavy-handedly in the first book). It's strictly codified "Chaos," which somewhat defeats the point. I guess NE is a good compromise.


I like Eilistraeen drow, myself. Mixed with some half-elf and maybe even local surface elf worshippers. I'd certainly put in a huge effort to make sure that they don't just seem like regular elves with black skin and white hair, though; they're often drow consciously struggling to overcome what's likely to be decades or centuries of learned behavior. It's going to show. They won't have human morals (not that any elf should). They would probably have a pretty vicious bent on that "Good" alignment. ("Orc prisoners? Slit their throats. ... what? That way they won't ever raid anyone again.")

Woot Spitum
2007-02-18, 08:02 PM
There are a few things you can do to help distance yourself from Drizzt. One, make a drow who was born to good-aligned parents and was raised among people of a good alignment. That keeps you from copying Drizzt's "I'm the exception" thing. Two, don't make your character automatically good in every situation. If she frequently struggles to do the right thing, she won't be as close to Drizzt, who can't seem to even fathom doing the wrong thing. Three, drop the "struggle against the misconceptions about being from a predominantly evil race" thing. It has been done so many times it's not even funny. This is the part that DM's are probably wanting to avoid the most, there are simply too many fantasy novels based on this concept for it to be interesting in D&D. Make these things clear to your DM. and he may reconsider.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-18, 08:02 PM
Okay. The link just takes you to the drow entry, with no information on alignment.
Okay, enough.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm

The first thing you should see on this page is a table. One column shows the stat block for a 1st-level Elf Warrior, the other for a 1st-level Drow Warrior. Scroll down a bit to the bottom of the table and look at the Drow column in the "Alignment" row and you will see "Usually NE." Drow in the default/Greyhawk setting are Usually (which is to say, by majority) a Neutral Evil Race.

Faerun Drow, however, are closer to their CE Demon-Goddess-thing, and are officially "Usually CE". See the Forgotten Realms Underdark supplement. It may also be mentioned in the PGtF or FRCS.

Why any of this matters in the least, I have no idea, I was just getting tired of reading the argument.


As to the topic, I say tell the DM to calm down and not have such a knee-jerk reaction to character concepts. "Good Drow devotee of Eilistrae" is a perfectly reasonable character. I mean, who the hell else is going to worship Eilistrae? She's the Goddess of Good Drow, for Seldarine's sake. As long as you don't play up the angst too bad, or insist that your character is an unkillable juggernaut of destruction in combat (more than a Cleric normally is), you're fine. Also, stay away from human love-interests. They only cause trouble.

Oh, and what you were probably looking for in the first place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drizzt#Fan_reactions

Matthew
2007-02-18, 08:09 PM
Okay, enough.
As to the topic, I say tell the DM to calm down and not have such a knee-jerk reaction to character concepts. "Good Drow devotee of Eilistrae" is a perfectly reasonable character. I mean, who the hell else is going to worship Eilistrae? She's the Goddess of Good Drow, for Seldarine's sake.

Now that's a good point.

cupkeyk
2007-02-18, 08:12 PM
Qilué Veladorn.

Noone has mentioned her. So I will. I guess Thomas hasn't posted yet or something.

Your character is not a Drizzt clone. It's a Qilue clone. She's one of the seven sisters along with Storm and The Simbul. She even has the bright attitude, and speaks in a soft whisper of joyous things to come while dancing in the battle field with her longsword.

You can read about her so you won't be her clone. Just look for the Seven Sisters book.

Oh and regardless of how annoying the other Seven Sisters are because they are all high and mighty and sappy, Qilue is by far the highest, mightiest, sappiest and therefore the most annoying of them all.

Don't play that character, I see character death in the very near future.

Thomas
2007-02-18, 08:19 PM
Oh, and what you were probably looking for in the first place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drizzt#Fan_reactions

That section is so hilariously inappropriate to Wikipedia (especially the bit after the spoiler warning)... gotta love fans editing articles. (But who else cares enough to do it?)

Did they take some sort of poll? "When did this particular whining begin to grate on you? A. After the first repetition. B. After the second repetition. C. After the third repetition..."


cupkeyk: Hey, I posted. :smallamused: But Qilue's so painfully obvious an example... right? I've never actually read any of the books she's in (was it Elaine Cunningham who wrote them, or was that another good female drow priestess in hers?).

The Seven Sisters are mostly, er, characters I'd not bring up as literary characters, largely because it tends to be Ed Greenwood that writes about them (Storm and Alustriel especially, I guess), and they always seem to be parading around naked in a room with Elminster. What was that about the misogyny...?

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-18, 08:24 PM
Elminster: Total Freakin' Mary Sue.

greenknight
2007-02-18, 08:25 PM
I'll stop basing the general alignment of Toril drow on your Alignment section under Drow in Races, where you say drow tend toward the chaotic end of lawful-chaotic spectrum. After all, a setting neutral book takes precedence above a setting specific book.

Could you give us a book and page reference where it states the racial Drow alignment is CE? Because I looked through FRCS, Faiths & Panteons, Races of Faerun and Lords of Darkness and I couldn't find it. Lords of Darkness even gives sample encounters with groups of Drow (p31), and gives the alignment for all of them (including high level Clerics) as NE. House Jaelre is also described in that LoD, and all the Drow there are NE.

cupkeyk
2007-02-18, 08:52 PM
Yup, Elaine Cunningham's trilogy features Qilue.

Since, Qilue is born of Skullport, where the mayor owns a Zombie rent-to-own shop; and she can just take the two day trek to Waterdeep and get greeted as Laeral's sister by the commonfolk she does not experience the same discrimination as Menzoberranzan drow.

In fact, Skullport drow are just about as normal as humans else where. Gnolls, orcs, ogres, illithids (there is an LN illithid cleric of Oghma in Skullport too), people don't actually bat an eyelash for monstrous races.

If you skip the fighting discrimination sap, your character is fine. Make her a Silverymoon Drow or a Skullport Drow, make them go: What I have never been ill-treated in my entire life ever!!!??? I live a comfortable, cosmopolitan lifestyle with frequent trips to the Promenade for naked sword-fighting dances under moonlight despite the fact that we are a few hundred feet underground yet I do not find that particularly strange... Oh, look... my breast plate has fallen off and I am naked.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-18, 08:55 PM
That section is so hilariously inappropriate to Wikipedia (especially the bit after the spoiler warning)... gotta love fans editing articles. (But who else cares enough to do it?)

Did they take some sort of poll? "When did this particular whining begin to grate on you? A. After the first repetition. B. After the second repetition. C. After the third repetition..."
Yeah, it's not very professional. But hey, it answers the question.

Saph
2007-02-18, 09:12 PM
I'm afraid Renrik has it right. Everyone is just sick to the back teeth of CG drow fighting to overthrow the reputation of their evil kin. Also:


My character concept is that she good natured drow with a cheerful attitude fighting the racist view of her race

The bad reputation of drow in the Forgotten Realms is very, very well-deserved. Drow are among the most sadistically evil creatures in Toril, which is quite an achievement considering the level of competition. This means that in most areas, drow are known as vicious psychopaths who worship a vicious psychopathic goddess and who mostly visit the surface to take slaves which they'll do horrible things to in the Underdark.

So do you see why it's a bit irritating to have a drow going around protesting the attitude towards her race? "Hey, all the dark elves you've met up to now might have been hideously evil slavers, but you should trust me and treat me nicely!"

- Saph

EvilElitest
2007-02-18, 09:16 PM
I want to make a good cleric of Eilistraee but it seems everyone hates the idea because one novel character named Drizz’t. Now I haven’t read any novel Drizz’t was in, but from what I can gather from other people talking about him is that he’s emo. What’s the difference between an emo human with a different weapon (great sword, bow etc) and Drizz’t? My character concept is that she good natured drow with a cheerful attitude fighting the racist view of her race and spreading the faith of her church. She would take ranks in perform to dance around and sing and not be as gloomy as Drizz’t.

God damit, i know its not you fault, but damit, what a bad impresion. Being emotinal in a book does not make him emo, when he cuts his wrist and goes to crappy concerts that moan about how much life sucks, THEN he is emo.
The Drizzt books are very good and i am sorry to see that you concept overlap, and people are mad simple beause you sound like Drizzt clone.
Not Drizzt clones just copy the character exactly and don't think of anything orginal. Playing a good drow is fine, as long as you use your own ideas.
From,
EE

EvilElitest
2007-02-18, 09:31 PM
Oh and about drow's aliment, they serve their godess for their own power, not od devotion. Every single drow's goal is their own power. All drow do is try to acheive as much power as they can. They set down rules, and have a very strucure hiearchy and miltary structure, they are fine with breaking the rules when it suits them, and they work only for them selfs. Orcs are chaotic evil. Drow are NE. They will do anything for their own goals. Read the aliment decription.
From,
EE

TheOOB
2007-02-18, 09:34 PM
There are a few problums with playing a good drow, the first reason being that the concept is way overdone. High fantasy is filled with evil beings throwing off the oppresive yokes of their fathers (or in drows case mothers) and trying to become something different...something more. Heck, trying to be different then those before you is a common trend in humans, why else do we see so much rebelloin and angst in our teen-aged and young adult population.

The second problum is that good drow just don't work well in a gameplay perspective. A good drow is a traitor among his/her kind and would be unnaccepted if not outright killed by them. Meanwhile the vast majority of good creatures don't wait long enough upon meeting a drow before passing judgement on them as an evil creature. In order to play a good drow you'll have to put forth a good deal of effort to avoid civilization, or at least conceal your identity, which can be annoying for players who would like to be able to walk into a bar without having to defend their comrade from an angry mob.

The third, and perhaps greatest reason why people don't like chaotic good drow is that being a chaotic good drow is not a valid character concept in and of itself. Characters, like humans, should be complex beings. They should have likes and dislikes, things and people they love, things and people they hate. Things they will always do given the oppertunity and things they will never do even if it means the death of them and their loved ones. Characters should have goals and objectives, as well as inner demons and personality complexes. Unfortunatly, most people who create a non-standard character concept don't build their character with all these things. When creating a human fighter, you must take pains to make him/her to be something unique and different, and thus you are (hopefully) driven to make something truely special. If you are playing a chaotic good drow, however, it is very easy to feel that the rarity of your character is enough to make them complex and lovable, though in reality it never is.

Is it possible to play a "good" good drow? Yes it is, I even played alongside one once and it was great, but in order to do so you need a group willing to put up with all the problums this will cause (much like how you need a special kind of group to put up with a paladin), and you need to focus on making the character something more then "The good drow cleric".

Jack Mann
2007-02-18, 09:43 PM
Again, there is a fair population of good drow. So long as you're not a refugee from the underdark, I shouldn't think there would be any huge difficulty.

Suzaku
2007-02-18, 09:56 PM
Imagine Isiolia to be child of good elves who has never set foot in the underdark Who sets out into the world either as part of the run and happened to get lost or spread her faith by befriending strangers. Now I have to find a game who would accept my character.

EvilElitest
2007-02-18, 10:05 PM
Just defend you idea by stating its difference from Drizzt and you lack of understanding about hte concept itself.
From,
EE

cupkeyk
2007-02-18, 10:06 PM
If she studied her clerkhood, she would likely be based in Skullport, as the Promenade (the largest church complex for Eilistreae) is there. You can read up on that with the AD&D splatbook Waterdeep: City of Splendors, as well as Waterdeep: City of Splendors 3.5. Mechanically the 3.5 is better but flavorwise the AD&D release is better.

JaronK
2007-02-18, 10:16 PM
At some point I want to play a dark elf named Drizz. However, I'd make him a nationalistic LE killer, whose parents wanted him to be like his namesake. He killed them. Then he runs around being pissed off at anyone who thinks he's a good guy.

It would be fun.

jjpickar
2007-02-18, 10:22 PM
Man, I wish had thought of that.

EvilElitest
2007-02-18, 11:20 PM
ouch, that is like the anti drizzt. Nice
From,
EE

Gorbash
2007-02-19, 06:39 AM
Oh for the last time, it's not Drizz't, it's just DRIZZT DO'URDEN.

Hmmm, considering the fact that Wiki articles are written by fans, I can't really trust them on the accuracy of Jarlaxle's aligment... If FCRS says he's NE, then he's NE, until another book comes out that says otherwise. It might be that he shifted towards neutrality during 'The Mercenaries' series, but untill the wizards say he's CN, he's NE. But none can dispute the fact that he's actually a very jovial and nice fella. :D

Khantalas
2007-02-19, 06:41 AM
He is, isn't he? What with all the being a mercenary drow and being bald and...

I got nothing.

Gorbash
2007-02-19, 06:54 AM
Well, how can a 5' 5'' bald drow be imposing? Totally different story if you run into a 6' 5'' bald half-orc, but Jarlaxle is short... And could seriously own you, considering the fact he's a lvl 17 drow fighter and loaded with magic items. So, one more good example of judging the book by its cover :D

cupkeyk
2007-02-19, 06:57 AM
And well we all love that silly hat... But he TWF's, isn't he Ftr/Rog?

Gorbash
2007-02-19, 06:59 AM
Nope. Lvl 17 Fighter. So sayeth the wise FRCS.
I personally dislike the idea of rogues dual wielding, considering their attack bonus and lack of feats...

Khantalas
2007-02-19, 07:02 AM
But also consider their sneak attack. A greater invisibility and you can get 60d6 extra damage easily at level 19. Epic makes it even more ridiculous.

Although epic also has a little feat called Epic Spellcasting, which wins D&D. A game not meant to be won.

Gorbash
2007-02-19, 07:11 AM
Well yeah, but that's ideal condition, you can't judge it by that... I play a rogue now, and even with a few levels of fighter, sometimes it's hard to hit people... Combine that with true rogues' attack bonus, penalties for dual wielding...

Khantalas
2007-02-19, 07:15 AM
What? Worse case, you have a -2 penalty. You should have Weapon Finesse anyway, wielding two shortswords or a rapier and a shortsword or something similar. Your Dexterity should be off the roof, which would help. Fighters suffer worse, you know. They don't even get extra damage.

Thomas
2007-02-19, 07:31 AM
Make her a Silverymoon Drow

Er, a what?

The wards of Silverymoon (a mythal) include an antipathy effect... against drow. There's no such thing as Silverymoon drow. They can't even enter the city. (Neither can orcs or half-orcs, goblinoids, giants, duergar, LE, NE, or CE creatures... it's a pretty boring city. Don't ask me how Xara Tantlor can enter the city...)

There might be High Forest or Moonwood Eilistraeen drow, but that's not really established.


Again, there is a fair population of good drow. So long as you're not a refugee from the underdark, I shouldn't think there would be any huge difficulty.

Agreed. Lone Good Underdark drow refugees should be incredibly rare. Most Good drow would be born on the surface. (Of course you've got the entire House Jaelre and company in the Elven Court, but they aren't GOOD refugees. They're Vhaerunite refugees.)

Gorbash
2007-02-19, 07:32 AM
Well, -2 is 2 less compared to wielding one weapon. Even less if you don't have a good AB. And if you're using a two handed weapon you use your strength, so you don't need a feat to optimize your AB. On top of that you get 1.5x your STR modifier.

I'm just saying rogues are too dependant on a situation do deal some significant damage. Flanking, flat-footed, non-undead/construct/plant/ooze/immune to crits etc etc... They are my favourite class, but I feel so useless when we run into skeletons and I can't do crap to them...
That's why I adore my Rogue/Fighter/Dread Commando wielding a greatsword with 16 str, even when I can't sneak attack, I do decent damage. :D

PirateMonk
2007-02-19, 08:48 AM
At some point I want to play a dark elf named Drizz. However, I'd make him a nationalistic LE killer, whose parents wanted him to be like his namesake. He killed them. Then he runs around being pissed off at anyone who thinks he's a good guy.

It would be fun.

Someone on "Good Drow and Other Stereotypes" suggested an LE devil who uses a finesse able weapon one handed.

cupkeyk
2007-02-19, 08:58 AM
Er, a what?

The wards of Silverymoon (a mythal) include an antipathy effect... against drow. There's no such thing as Silverymoon drow. They can't even enter the city. (Neither can orcs or half-orcs, goblinoids, giants, duergar, LE, NE, or CE creatures... it's a pretty boring city. Don't ask me how Xara Tantlor can enter the city...)

Hmmn, the fluff on Half-Drow says they are mostly concentrated in Silverymoon, so I assumed their parents lived there too.

Thomas
2007-02-19, 09:01 AM
Hmmn, the fluff on Half-Drow says they are mostly concentrated in Silverymoon, so I assumed their parents lived there too.

Huh, never noticed that one. Maybe it meant the Silverymoon area; a city's surrounding villages (some of which lie in the Moonwood, in this case) are often considered part of the city, politically and geographically. Do half-drow count as drow for game mechanics purposes, though? I mean, there's no drow subtype...

It might be a case of whoever wrote the half-drow fluff having no damn clue what they're talking about; the mythal's powers were the same in AD&D, as far as I recall, and they're spelled out in Silver Marches and Lost Empires of Faerûn. (Although I think the text in SM might be read to mean that the mythal only works on evil demons, evil devils, evil drow, evil orcs, etc. - but the LEoF text is clearer, and it applies to all drow.)

The_Werebear
2007-02-19, 10:53 AM
While it says Jarlaxle is a fighter, I would have pegged him as a rogue not for the TWF, but for the huge ranks in UMD.

EvilElitest
2007-02-19, 11:36 AM
He might have been made a swashbuckler sence. Bear in mind, his full stats have not been made yet, unlike Drizzt and Enterai.
From,
EE

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-19, 11:39 AM
Jarlaxle: not following the Wealth-By-Level guidelines.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-19, 02:58 PM
Jarlaxle: not following the Wealth-By-Level guidelines.

No kidding. Sometimes I wonder if he has some sort of genie imprisoned that he can use Wish to get whatever magic item he needs at the time. Actually, it seems like most drow in books get a good deal more magic items than their wealth-by-level should allow. Jarlaxe is just exponentially worse.

Suzaku
2007-02-19, 03:00 PM
No kidding. Sometimes I wonder if he has some sort of genie imprisoned that he can use Wish to get whatever magic item he needs at the time. Actually, it seems like most drow in books get a good deal more magic items than their wealth-by-level should allow. Jarlaxe is just exponentially worse.
Maybe he's like Red Mage from 8 bit theater, except of changing stats around he could change magical equipment around?

The_Werebear
2007-02-19, 03:19 PM
I got the idea Jarlaxle got his band together, then took their wealth, and used it on himself. I would say he has about the equivelent worth in magic items of 100+ level 5-10 drow.

PirateMonk
2007-02-19, 03:34 PM
He might have been made a swashbuckler sence. Bear in mind, his full stats have not been made yet, unlike Drizzt and Enterai.
From,
EE

Drizzt is spelled Drizzt. Entreri is spelled Entreri.

Josh Inno
2007-02-19, 03:36 PM
It's a stereotype prejudice, pure and simple. Just like Kender are supposedly all stupid annoying pieces of waste that should never be in an RPG, Good aligned Drow are supposedly all Drizzt clones.

Or, alternately, let's say that I've just gotten home from a dorm where the cafeteria serves meat loaf, pizza, and Salad, and little else. Now let's say that my mom cooked a big meatloaf or pizza or salad dinner to celebrate my arival home. Even if she makes REALLY good meatloaf or pizza... I'm probably not going to enjoy it. I.e. People are sick of good Drow.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-19, 03:38 PM
I got the idea Jarlaxle got his band together, then took their wealth, and used it on himself. I would say he has about the equivelent worth in magic items of 100+ level 5-10 drow.

Except for the fact that his minions still have more magic items than any sane DM would throw around. Valas Hune from The War of the Spider Queen series isn't even one of Jarlaxe's lieutenants, and yet he is clearly in violation of the wealth-by-level guidelines.

Twisted.Fate
2007-02-19, 04:41 PM
They're novels. They hand out magic items by the Wealth-by-Plot guidelines, not the Wealth-by-Level outline. They may be based on DnD, but they're still novels, so expect them to function like books, not like game.

Matthew
2007-02-19, 04:48 PM
I think it was a joke... mind, you don't really need to follow wealth by level in the game either

Gorbash
2007-02-19, 05:06 PM
Of course you don't. Then again you can start out with a +5 Vorpal Greatsword and ability to shoot lightning bolts out of arse, but where would be the fun in that?

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-19, 05:21 PM
It's always strange when people don't follow WBL, and are surprised when character and encounter balance is way off...

cupkeyk
2007-02-19, 05:28 PM
we don't follow wealth by aliognment. The DM stinges on us on purpose so we raid caravans and sell the loot. We are so rich but there is no magical items available for sale. So we have become comfortable sundering our opponents stuff. Our Cleric has Craft Magic Arms and ARmor, and craft wondrous items anyway. I think DM's that stinge on player's find that player revolt will occur. Organized crime, baby.

Matthew
2007-02-19, 05:39 PM
It's always strange when people don't follow WBL, and are surprised when character and encounter balance is way off...

It would be strange if they didn't take wealth by level into account when calculating Encounter Levels, that's for sure.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-19, 05:58 PM
I think my characters would quickly become aggravated by your character's perky attitude.

"Good evening, Droxor the Dark! Isn't the twilight just lovely with this harvest moon?"

"It was beneath a moon just like this that the orcs took my parents..." *Brooding silence*

"Oh, but doesn't it make you just want to sing?"

"All my life is night. Only my swords give me comfort."

"D'aww, such a grouchy-bear! GUMMEER!" *Hugs*

"......GAH! Check for level drain! You are killing my vibe! ELRIC NEVER HAD TO PUT UP WITH THIS!"

My group's RP'd through some similar situations before. >_>

Josh Inno
2007-02-19, 06:12 PM
It's always strange when people don't follow WBL, and are surprised when character and encounter balance is way off...

You don't need a lack of WBL for ECL to be off. Just a lot of splat books, and a relatively high starting level so that you can start with one or two uber items.

Such as a level 5 character with a greater mastercraft (from arcanus) mithril breastplate, soul forged, with fast-don riding straps, and a signature crest... who tends to float up along walls, firing arrows across the battle field.

EvilElitest
2007-02-19, 10:12 PM
Drizzt is spelled Drizzt. Entreri is spelled Entreri.

I spelled Drizzt right dude.

Anyways, as for Jaraxle's wealth, he runs a DROW Mafia, i mean come on. Drow are one of the most magic packed races on the Material plane, what do you think he takes from them. Basiclly the is the ultimate middle man in the entire city and makes a huge hail off of it. As for Valas, i get the picture that he is more of a free lace scout who just works for the ogrization.
From,
EE

Cobra
2007-02-20, 01:50 AM
Anybody know which book Eilistraeen drow were first introduced in? I have a sneaking suspicion they were added to the setting books AFTER the massive popularity of Salvatore's books and the hordes of players wanting to play Drizzt like characters. A good supplier meets demand after all :-)

TheDarkOne
2007-02-20, 02:10 AM
People who say someone shouldn't play a CG good drow because it's been done before should shut up. It's a bloody game, it doesn't matter if a concept is original or not, it matters whether or not someone is having fun playing it. And, it's really not such a huge burden for someone to have to accpet a sterotypical character into the party, if someone playing a partial or even complete drizzt clone ruins the game for you, you might be taking it a bit too seriously.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing a role that's been done before. Actors do it all the time and still have fun doing it. So it should be even better in D&D because you get to put the character in situations you've never seen them in before, rather then following a laid out plot.

Kantolin
2007-02-20, 02:15 AM
Anybody know which book Eilistraeen drow were first introduced in? I have a sneaking suspicion they were added to the setting books AFTER the massive popularity of Salvatore's books and the hordes of players wanting to play Drizzt like characters.

I believe that the diety existed back in 2.0 fairly concurrently with Drizzt.

Zincorium
2007-02-20, 02:24 AM
Aside from being a good align character I don't see how my character resembles Drizz't. Martin L. King and Malcolm X were both people who supported the end of racism and African American suppression, by your logic they’re clone of themselves. Is Washington, Garfield, Taft, Clinton and W. Bush clones of each other? How about making a Kobold who’s good align a clone of Drizz’t?

Martin Luther King, Jr, and Malcolm X were only exceptions to the norm in their eloquence and ability to influence others. And a civil rights activist who was able to gain thousands or millions of supporters due to their charisma would definitely be compared to at least one of those, and often. It would probably be somewhat difficult for them to escape that expectation.

The presidents you mentioned are alike in that while they had varied backgrounds, they all had a title in common. And honestly not a whole lot else. Saying they are clones would be inaccurate, but to say they attempt to emulate their predecessors is probably true.

Drizzt is not a typical member of his race. No good drow is. They are defined by a choice that each of them made, or that their parents made. Drizzt does not have a title typical of drow, in fact the only titles he's gained were purely through actions. All drow are not 'Defender of Ten Towns' and should not expect the treatment accorded thereof.

If you take two people who are different from the norm in precisely the same way, as your character and Drizzt are, and one came about earlier, the latter is very likely to be considered a clone because while it may not be based on the first one directly, it's clearly a result of the same influences.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-20, 02:29 AM
Anybody know which book Eilistraeen drow were first introduced in? I have a sneaking suspicion they were added to the setting books AFTER the massive popularity of Salvatore's books and the hordes of players wanting to play Drizzt like characters. A good supplier meets demand after all :-)
Well, the original Forgotten Realms box set was released in 1985, and The Crystal Shard was published in 1988. So unless she was in the original set, Drizzt probably pre-dates her.

A quick look at Wikipedia's reference section shows Eilistrae definitely showed up in 1998's Demihuman Deities, an AD&D Forgotten Realms accessory from TSR. The article also cites sources from as far back as 1991, but those could be for peripheral information on Lolth, Correllon, or the Forgotten Realms in general. Note that earlier appearances almost certainly exist, but I can't seem to find any info specifically on where her information was published.

In conclusion, can someone with the original FR grey box tell me if Eilistrae was in there? My money's on "no," because the Drow were originally conceived as strictly black-hat, demon-worshipping thugs. Apparently, before Salvatore's Homeland, Drow culture only existed in skeletal form and the imaginations of DMs (yes, at some point in the past, Forgotten Realms DMs actually had to come up with things on their own. *shock*.)


On a personal response to the topic, were I DMing Suzaku's game, I would not object to Suzaku's character, unless "happy-go-lucky nudist priestess" clashed horribly with the tone of my campaign. And in no campaign I ever run will "nudist priestess" clash horribly with the tone. I think it's a perfectly respectable take on the good bad guy archetype. That's not to say I'd make it easy for her, though. 90% of Drow are still baby-eating evil (maybe 70/20 baby-eating evil/willing-but-terrified-servants to the baby-eating evil), and I'm not sure Suzaku realizes it, and the character definitely doesn't realize that. Plus, y'know, she's still kill-on-sight to most surface-goers without beefy and legitimate protection from her team-mates and the local government. Or a disguise.

Gorbash
2007-02-20, 05:11 AM
I spelled Drizzt right dude.

Anyways, as for Jaraxle's wealth

It's JarLaxle.

Josh Inno
2007-02-20, 11:19 AM
In any campaign I play, the automatic answer to a first time player wanting to play a Drow of any kind is no. I play roleplaying campaigns, and good or bad, I'm under the impression that 95%-99.9% of the people out there that play drow play them badly. Heck, I love Kender, and I'd say "No" to a first time player in my campaign that wanted to play a Kender. There are certain races that, unless you know the player, just should not be allowed because most people that play them, do so in such a horrid manner it induces retching. Those are two of them.

After said player had earned my trust by playing in one of my campaigns, if I then trusted their RPing ability, I'd work with them to make sure the Drow or Kender character and concept were well crafted, then probably allow it.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-20, 11:36 AM
I think sometimes it's actually better for people playing characters of certain races or classes that tend to be done in a stereotypical way if they don't have any idea what they're supposed to be like. A paladin who doesn't know about the paladin code is a lot more fun to play with than the normal kind.

cupkeyk
2007-02-20, 12:02 PM
Only he occassionally falls and becomes a warrior most of the time. Paladin's code is shtooopeeed. Rogue's code is smart.

Gorbash
2007-02-20, 12:55 PM
^I agree. It's so much fun! Unfortunately, I'm in a party with a LG Cleric, LG Paladin and another CN Cleric... So, I'm not free to follow the rogue code thoroughfuly. Did I mention that my character is a tiefling with horns, wings and spell-like abilities? :D Yeah, that paladin hates me...

That same paladin wanted to cut the heads off some treasure hunters we attacked and tied them up for questioning... Afterwards he didn't want to attack some goblins... Believe me, it's not fun to play with him...

afternoon
2007-02-20, 01:02 PM
The problem people have when CG drow characters is that, supposedly, the vast majority of Drow are supposed to be some version of evil, but at least 90% of drow that appear in games are the same kind of good.... it kind of violates the idea of a setting.

It's kind of like when a particular campaign world is designed to be low-to-no magic with little to no wizards. Then... somehow every adventuring group has one.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-20, 01:09 PM
Afternoon: the vast majority of people are supposed to be NPC classes and level 1 or 2. But approximately 100% of PCs have PC classes! Gasp!

Thomas
2007-02-20, 01:21 PM
PCs aren't supposed to comply to population statistics. If they did, well... er, you'd be playing third-edition RuneQuest, where 60% of PCs (if you rolled profession) were farmers, unable to use a weapon or do anything else useful, starting out with a hoe and some worn clothes.

Kantolin
2007-02-20, 02:44 PM
I keep noticing the 'low-magic - but the PCs always have a wizard' argument with some confusion.

I mean, there are what, 4 billion people on earth? That's one out of four billion due to there being PCs. And normally, there are only one set of PCs at a time in a given world, so no matter how many times you play there there are one (Or two, or maybe even all four. Billion-to-one ratio is acceptable).

Suzaku
2007-02-20, 02:48 PM
Is there any campaign world where there is a population of above 1 billion?

Kantolin
2007-02-20, 02:51 PM
One must assume: Campaign worlds based on relatively modern earth population numbers. ^_^

The_Werebear
2007-02-20, 02:53 PM
It always seemed to me as if campaign worlds were underpopulated in comparison to Earth.

I can't cite numbers though.

Suzaku
2007-02-20, 02:59 PM
1% of the cities in random generated world is a Metropolis which house only +25,001. In various campaign worlds there are very few Metropolis usually 1 or 2 maybe 3 at the max. Major cities today can have population of millions...

EvilElitest
2007-02-20, 03:27 PM
1% of the cities in random generated world is a Metropolis which house only +25,001. In various campaign worlds there are very few Metropolis usually 1 or 2 maybe 3 at the max. Major cities today can have population of millions...

Only a few Metropolis per country(often 1 per large country, maybe to if the country is reallly powerful) but bear in mind most champain settings are around the size of the earth, and the earth during the pre modern periods (middle ages is the standard) have a pouplation of about 4 billion if you combine all hte people of the world. That being said, i'd think that a fantasy world would have a larger one. Sure death is more common, but they have magic healing that is about as good or better than modern healing (no whipping yourself to cure hte plauge), creatus that breed like rabbits (orcs), and often inter planar travel.

Back on topic, what is wrong with playing a good drow, if it is not a Drizzt clone?
from,
EE

Suzaku
2007-02-20, 03:34 PM
Around 1700s the world's population (http://worldhistoryforusall.sdsu.edu/dev/themes/keytheme1.htm) was only 610 Million

JadedDM
2007-02-20, 03:41 PM
I mean, there are what, 4 billion people on earth?

Last time I checked, it was 6.6 billion.

Inyssius Tor
2007-02-20, 03:45 PM
Only a few Metropolis per country(often 1 per large country, maybe to if the country is reallly powerful) but bear in mind most champain settings are around the size of the earth, and the earth during the pre modern periods (middle ages is the standard) have a pouplation of about 4 billion if you combine all hte people of the world. That being said, i'd think that a fantasy world would have a larger one. Sure death is more common, but they have magic healing that is about as good or better than modern healing (no whipping yourself to cure hte plauge), creatus that breed like rabbits (orcs), and often inter planar travel.
You're forgetting the fact that almost everyone (all the common races except half-orcs) have crazy long lifespans for the time period... In fact, I think that the half-orcs' lifespans are longer than actual real human lifespans were back in the middle ages...


Back on topic, what is wrong with playing a good drow, if it is not a Drizzt clone?
from,
EE
Yay for dropping Drizzt from the equation! Anyways, a few things: People will assume your drow is an evil racist baby-eating slaver (like 95% of the drow race) and act accordingly. This may complicate things a little.

MeklorIlavator
2007-02-20, 03:45 PM
Around 1700s the world's population (http://worldhistoryforusall.sdsu.edu/dev/themes/keytheme1.htm) was only 610 Million

Remember, that is without any ideas concerning proper medical care. I mean, people were bleed, and up until after the civil war, doctors didn't realize the value of handwashing(some would be disecting corpses and then deliver children). The medical practices in DnD far outweigh those found in even early 1800's earth(remove disease, cure, ect).

TheElfLord
2007-02-20, 03:49 PM
Around 1700s the world's population (http://worldhistoryforusall.sdsu.edu/dev/themes/keytheme1.htm) was only 610 Million

And in the year 1000 it was aproximatly 310 million.

Why would medieval based campagin worlds have modern poplulation. Which is is actually over 6 billion to whoever said 4. The population of the world din't even go over a billion till around 1850.

As to the original topic. Is it an exaclt clone, no its not. It would have been a cool refresing counter to Drizzt several years ago. A CG Drow who isn't dark and moody. But the thing is that CG Drow have been done to death, so you are going to find a lot of people who are sick of the concept. Now the only thing that matters is not the opinons of the forum, but of your gaming group. If they have seen CG drow done to death you might have a problem. If they are cool with it, go ahead and have fun.

Suzaku
2007-02-20, 03:56 PM
As to the original topic. Is it an exaclt clone, no its not. It would have been a cool refresing counter to Drizzt several years ago. A CG Drow who isn't dark and moody. But the thing is that CG Drow have been done to death, so you are going to find a lot of people who are sick of the concept. Now the only thing that matters is not the opinons of the forum, but of your gaming group. If they have seen CG drow done to death you might have a problem. If they are cool with it, go ahead and have fun.


The problem is I'm trying to join a campaign on this message boards.

Thomas
2007-02-20, 04:04 PM
You're forgetting the fact that almost everyone (all the common races except half-orcs) have crazy long lifespans for the time period... In fact, I think that the half-orcs' lifespans are longer than actual real human lifespans were back in the middle ages...

Not really. This is a very common misconception. Average lifespans inevitably take into account all those "0 years" (and 1s, 2s, 3s, etc.) you add for the very, very high infant mortality. People didn't live quite as long, obviously, but neither did the majority keel over at 40. A great amount died at or soon after birth, and the others lived a tougher, somewhat shorter life than people in Western countries do now. (What's with "for the time period" anyway? Are people not aware of the average lifespans in developing countries this day?)

TheElfLord
2007-02-20, 04:09 PM
Not really. This is a very common misconception. Average lifespans inevitably take into account all those "0 years" (and 1s, 2s, 3s, etc.) you add for the very, very high infant mortality. People didn't live quite as long, obviously, but neither did the majority keel over at 40. A great amount died at or soon after birth, and the others lived a tougher, somewhat shorter life than people in Western countries do now. (What's with "for the time period" anyway? Are people not aware of the average lifespans in developing countries this day?)

I want to second this. Some sources I've read claim that only one in ten people lived to the age of ten. While I think this is a little extreme, infant and child mortality was very high. Say the average life span of a Medieval populationw as 40 years. Now if 90% of the population lives less than 10 years, the remaining 10% had to live to a nice age to get the average to where it is. Basically, if you suvived childhood, you had a good chance for a reasonably long life.

Matthew
2007-02-20, 04:12 PM
Most of those statistics are very hard to verify anyway. Birth and Death records from the twelfth century just plain don't exist.

Talya
2007-02-20, 04:15 PM
Eilistraeen clerics are awesome. They are not unique, but they are less common than clerics of most other core gods/goddesses. They have nothing to do with Drizzt Do'Urden, he has had no contact with Eilistraeens, he worships NG Mielikki. Eilistraee has a fun portfolio, a great clergy and ritual concept (naked elves dancing under the moon, can't get better than that without turning to Sune or Sharess...or perhaps Loviatar). If you wanted to pick a canonical FR character who people would claim you are copying, Qilue would be the only one, but she's very different from typical eilistraeen clerics anyway. (How can you be both an Eilistraeen cleric AND a chosen of Mystra?)

Eilistraee is one of my favorite Gods in the FR pantheon. She's borderline CN, she has to be ruthless to survive the war among her fellow dark seldarine. (And she just killed Vhaeraun and absorbed his portfolio, including all his clerics, which means she may have actually shifted to CN now, who knows.)

Jack Mann
2007-02-20, 04:15 PM
Indeed. Once you reached adulthood intact, you had a good chance of reaching your fifties or even your sixties.

Another misconception: People were not shorter than we were throughout all of history. It varied widely depending on factors like nutrition and disease. In England, around the year 1000, the average height wasn't too far from where it is today. It was overpopulation in Europe creating malnutrition and disease that caused the much shorter people of the later middle ages, reaching a low in the 17th and 18th centuries.

So, if you assume a relatively healthy agricultural society, aided by magic, the people would likely be just as tall as we are (if not taller).

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-20, 04:21 PM
Which always struck me as kind of funny. A malnourished peasant from the middle ages would be like, 5' 5", but thanks to CONSTANT conditioning he could probably kick 6' 2" Joe American Lawyer/Computer Programmer's squishy Anglo ass. >>

Talya
2007-02-20, 04:24 PM
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion there's just a lot of people who like to complain about anything. Eilistraeen clerics are about as far removed from Drizzt as it's possible for any chaotic good character to be--and allignments do not define the character. Let's compare the two.

Drizzt Do'Urden
Allignment of Goddess: NG (Mielikki)
Profession: Martial (ranger/fighter/barbarian)
Weapon(s): Two Scimitars
Philosophy: Easy going, not very religious, general do-gooder and adventurer, violence as a last resort (which happens a lot), somewhat sexually restrained (he just lost his virginity after 20 years on the surface with the same party)

Cleric of Eilistraee
Allignment of Goddess: CG (Eilistraee)
Profession: Divine (Cleric)
Weapons: cleric weapons only, perhaps a bastard sword weilded with 2 hands if they follow Eilistraee's favored weapon
Philosophy: Fanatical zealot attempting to convert all other drow, feminist matriarchy, violence as a normal part of day to day life, sexual hedonist who has naked rituals that involve doing unspeakably kinky things with her altar.

Have I mentioned I love Eilistraeens?

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-20, 04:25 PM
Me, I just love sexual hedonists.

Thomas
2007-02-20, 04:33 PM
Me, I just love sexual hedonists.

Then there's the whole "culture where women dominate men" thing on top of that...

Er, we should probably stop this line of conversation before we get (really) offensive.

Talya
2007-02-20, 04:35 PM
Er, we should probably stop this line of conversation before we get (really) offensive.

Read Greenwood's "Silverfall." Qilue's section is ... eye opening.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-20, 04:35 PM
Greenwood: Why Doesn't He Just Bloody Well Write Porn, Like Anne Rice Used To?

Jabberwocky
2007-02-20, 04:36 PM
Well, I think that the problem of good drow could be related to the nature of the campaign world, too. I mean, it's not only the problem of the player, but also of the GM. I came up with an idea of a good drow character back in 1993 or 1994 and I didn't even know about Drizzt or Eilistraee then (not reading the gaming novels, you know :-) The idea fell to nothing together with the campaign, which has never been started. I kept the concept in my head for almost ten years though and when an opportunity to play a fantasy campaign offered itself again, I presented the new GM with my original idea. He said something about clichéd idiots with scimitars and seemed to refuse the idea at all. But the concept was cool, I was certain, and maybe it was the complex background and a mental illness as a key attribute of my characater that made him change his mind. And now comes his part into play - the campaign is a comparatively low-level magic campaign in Greyhawk, not FR. The drow are not universally hated in our mutation of the setting - rather unheard of, a nearly extinct race. There are deep grudges between them and the "normal" elves but other races and nations hardly care about inner elven problems and "normal" elves are often held in suspicion or even contempt, too. There are of course universal threats and evils out in the world but the political scheming is so complex and the elven nation is so involved in the pattern that it can't be easily considered good or pure per se. This benefits a drow character as it is seen by the common folk as "another friggin' elf, this one maybe from the south".
And the drow are not universally evil in such a world, either. Sure, they have their Lolth and priestesses and an extremely oppressive political system but this makes many of them just bitter neutral individualists with evil tendencies. This is a wonderful playground for roleplayers like myself and I am absolutely happy in such a world of b/w ideals facing (and often not standing a chance against) the reality with its thousands of shades of grey. A lolthian priestess can be a charming person with some likeable features while the leader of the resistance movement employs terrorist tactics and doesn't care about dead innocents. At least not much. (Game quote: My character:"You are not going to win much public support whis way." Resistance leader: "To hell with public support! Those idiots must learn that as long as they stick with the priestesses they will keep dying.")

Okay, so is it original? Is it not? The answer should be: who the hell cares! The mankind keeps telling stories since the times of Gilgamesh (actually, much much longer but let's do with Gilgamesh for the moment). Pretty much everything has been there for like thousands of times. The key point is: if you are inventive and trust in your character, even a clichéd idiot with scimitars (not that my character had any!) can turn out to be fun. For the millionth time :-)

(English is not my first language, so please excuse me for any typos/mistakes/incorrections. Thx :-)

Talya
2007-02-20, 04:38 PM
Greenwood: Why Doesn't He Just Bloody Well Write Porn, Like Anne Rice Used To?


Something about whatever WotC lets him get away with.

Ed Greenwood being perverted with his seven sisters again, here. (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/ed-alustriel.htm)

cupkeyk
2007-02-20, 09:03 PM
Yes, it would be campaign setting specific. This discussion wouldn't even arise if he specified his dark elf was in a Dragonlance setting since, aside from the stat adjustments, dark elves are just black skinned, white haired elves with a few useless spell-like abilities a lousy Level Adjustment and Spell Resistance that will never be competitive to the kind of casters whose CR's you should be facing at your character level.

Pvednes
2007-02-20, 10:04 PM
Basically, my beef is that you want to play a Drow--but there's no Drow in your character. At all.

Even the prejudice thing hasn't got anything to do with Drow--dark elves are not a racist allegory.

Pvednes
2007-02-20, 10:10 PM
I mean, even Drizzt has the Drow war-rage in him.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-20, 10:11 PM
Basically, my beef is that you want to play a Drow--but there's no Drow in your character. At all.


Um, you realize not all drow are the same, right?

Drizzt comes from a different sort of drow. The Elistraeeans are a cheery lot, by and large.

...Are you seriously insisting that every member of a certain race should act the same?

cupkeyk
2007-02-20, 10:18 PM
Ahahahaha. that's true. Drizzt doesn't mind that people think Drow are twisted evil creatures. He lived in Menzoberranzan for a century so he knows that statement is mostly right. He minds that people think he is twisted and evil before getting to know him. Then he goes emo about ranger guy who accepted him for who he is and all his friends who accept him as family because their mistrust and fear is NOT unfounded.

Unless we are implying that Real Life people who fight injustice belong to a cultural minority of ACTUAL twisted and evil natures then the allegory might work. Otherwise, there is nothing parallel about this Cleric and Drizzt.

If she were separated from her parents and grew up in Skullport where no one cared that she was drow, after which she finds herself in a surface world where she is being hunted down with torches and pitchforks that would be so funny. I imagine Shrek, I am sorry. But I guess even Skullport Drow know to hide their race when on the surface. Even Qilue "dresses" up as her sister when in Waterdeep.

Basically it doesn;t make sense fighting discrimination if your race deserves it, right?

I mentioned that dude, that Illithid in Skullport who is a cleric of Oghma. He does not apologize for his race as being evil and tyrannical. He still has to eat brains to survive no less.

People should expect people to be PC about something that ACTUALLY deserves discrimination. I am sorry I am a convict, I hope you accept me for who I am. Go gay!----> Don't ask, Don't Tell.

Drow? Wear a hat of disguise.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-20, 10:25 PM
I mean, even Drizzt has the Drow war-rage in him.

Drow don't have any rage ability, Drizzt just took a level of barbarian when he was "the hunter."

EvilElitest
2007-02-20, 10:49 PM
You're forgetting the fact that almost everyone (all the common races except half-orcs) have crazy long lifespans for the time period... In fact, I think that the half-orcs' lifespans are longer than actual real human lifespans were back in the middle ages...

Yay for dropping Drizzt from the equation! Anyways, a few things: People will assume your drow is an evil racist baby-eating slaver (like 95% of the drow race) and act accordingly. This may complicate things a little.

Yeah longer life span, more kids during your life span (even elves, i mean how many subraces are their?). Half-Orc lie shorter than humans though, but i think pure orcs live longer, or at least stay healthy longer.
However, will all the magic in a D&D world, the pouplation will most likely outnumber a real life same period, beause people don't die so easelly.
From,
EE

afternoon
2007-02-20, 11:24 PM
Afternoon: the vast majority of people are supposed to be NPC classes and level 1 or 2. But approximately 100% of PCs have PC classes! Gasp!


Ahaha you always have great, friendly tone in all of your posts. But ANYways, you knew what I meant. I'm not talking about classes but personalities. Certain character concepts tend to make people roll their eyes, and "good drow" have, unfortunately, been lumped in and associated with *one* personality that does just that.

The whole "% of population" thing is what might generally keep players from being as antagonistic toward a brave and stout dwarf character stereotype as a good "drow-who-resents-his-past" stereotype.

JadedDM
2007-02-20, 11:30 PM
Drow don't have any rage ability, Drizzt just took a level of barbarian when he was "the hunter."

Well, that was retconned. The story was originally written back in the days of AD&D, when such a thing was not possible.

Pvednes
2007-02-21, 01:15 AM
Um, you realize not all drow are the same, right?

Drizzt comes from a different sort of drow. The Elistraeeans are a cheery lot, by and large.

...Are you seriously insisting that every member of a certain race should act the same?

Drizzt comes from the same sort of Drow as the others, really. When he goes into his "hunter" mode, he's just as savage as the rest.

It's simply a matter of what the Drow are--a race of (originally evil) elves that have been further twisted into unspeakable evil by the guidance of their goddess' hatred over thousands of years.

And by "war-rage" I didn't mean the barbarian class ability. It's just a part of his character, that the rest of the Drow embrace most of the time.

Thomas
2007-02-21, 07:52 AM
Well, that was retconned. The story was originally written back in the days of AD&D, when such a thing was not possible.

Other drow still didn't go berserk back then. Drizzt is, in fact, a whole lot more savage than other drow, when he's in "hunter" mode. It's not drow "battle-rage" - it's something he developed when he had to survive, alone, in the Underdark for years. Something other drow don't have to do.

I've never seen any reference to any other drow fighting that way. In the War of the Spider Queen series, Ryld (an evil drow fighter, callous and cruel and vicious) is precisely the opposite - he fights calmly (in fact, he seems to have the Combat Focus feats from PHB2, which is plain odd, since surely PHB2 was put out after the first WotSQ books...).


Eilistraeen drow shouldn't be happy, cheery, prancing bastards; there's been several mentions of how they're presented in books along the course of these two threads, and they've definitely got an ugly twist to them. They should absolutely be pushing the boundaries of Chaotic Good, simply because a few generations down the line, their parents were evil drow, and even the best-intended parents will pass down some of the cultural conditioning they got as children to their own offspring. Summarily executing enemy prisoners, acting against enemies without remorse, scheming and manipulating, etc. - they can be good, but they should definitely be on the edge of it.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-21, 03:31 PM
Well, that was retconned. The story was originally written back in the days of AD&D, when such a thing was not possible.

Yes, I suppose that was a simpler time. Drizzt was just a ranger, not a Nale-esque fighter10/ranger5/barbarian2. I was a little shocked the first time I read his stats. I had always assumed he was "only a ranger" just like the books said.

Matthew
2007-02-21, 03:40 PM
I always thought that Rage thing must have been to do with the 2.x Ranger's Favoured [Read Hated) Enemy thing.

Black Hand
2007-02-21, 04:13 PM
:smallconfused: I believe the hunter was flavor to Drizzt's psyche for the author to describe the desparation one would have to go through living in a harsh environment....not much difference than a soldier with Post Dramatic Stress Disorder. I don't think R.A. was thinking of game mechanics when initially writing about Drizzt as If I recall from the Menzoberranzan Box set that Drizzt was a 19th level fighter when he left Menzo, but on the surface he ended up becoming a 15th level Ranger...Yeah it doesn't make sense, and Many of us wrapped our heads on whether he dual classed or not, but in the end it was just creative license on the behalf of R.A.

:smalltongue: Instead of trying to break Drizzt down in a bunch of various classes just to makes sense of his "abilities", I just see him as a Fighter/Ranger, that has a little too much baggage and needs a little therapy time....I can see him now when he makes his breakthrough crying on the chair in the fetal position "Mommmy, Mommmy, Mommmy!! Mommmy never liked me!!!

Talya
2007-02-21, 04:27 PM
I don't think R.A. was thinking of game mechanics when initially writing about Drizzt

Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!

Salvatore has said precisely that, in the past. Game mechanics change, he doesn't use them when creating his characters, he didn't in the past and he still does not. He looks at broad ideas, but not the details of the game mechanics. He doesn't draw up stats for the characters he makes.


I can see him now when he makes his breakthrough crying on the chair in the fetal position "Mommmy, Mommmy, Mommmy!! Mommmy never liked me!!!

I somehow can't see anyone ever calling Matron Malice Do'Urden "Mommy."

Black Hand
2007-02-21, 04:35 PM
I somehow can't see anyone ever calling Matron Malice Do'Urden "Mommy."

:smallconfused: Good point, however he may have heald idealistic expectations of his mother that she did not meet and never got over it....that and his sister tried to **** him.

:smallbiggrin: Maybe it would be lamenting about Daddy-trying-to-run-him-through instead.

Matthew
2007-02-21, 04:52 PM
I don't know about that. According to his introducttion to The Crystal Shard he seems *very* familiar with (A)D&D and most of the action in the book seems rooted firmly in the game. I can't speak to his more recent work, but the Icewind Dale and Homeland(?) trilogies seem to pretty much directly correspond to the game.

Now, on the other hand, there are plenty of ways in which these books are not indebted to the game, but it seems to me a reasonable supposition that event X may be using game mechanic Y as inspiration and making sense of it within the context of the story.

Jabberwocky
2007-02-21, 05:11 PM
Yes, it would be campaign setting specific. This discussion wouldn't even arise if he specified his dark elf was in a Dragonlance setting since, aside from the stat adjustments, dark elves are just black skinned, white haired elves with a few useless spell-like abilities a lousy Level Adjustment and Spell Resistance that will never be competitive to the kind of casters whose CR's you should be facing at your character level.

Yes, right, but I was to say that even in FR the GM is responsible for a big part of the role the drow character would play in the group (and the whole world, after all). It's always possible to deviate from the general paradigm and make the setting more vivid in one direction or the other. The canon is, well, just canon, not a holy script. You don't have to stick to it if you don't want to. At least not fully and not always. One of the players wants to play a clichéd good drow? Why not, let's see what can be done with it. Let's break the monolith of their society a little and make the actual people in various shades of grey (be it dark). Are they universally hated and despised? Wonderful, a roleplaying opportunity par excellence. And why not give some credit to their point of view? If it benefits the whole experience, may they have it! And see: the image of boring evil opponents (or boring good rebels against boring evil opponents) crumbles and something much more interesting is born.
I mean, I am a Greyhawk player and I don't know much about FR but in my opinion it's the GM who should listen to the players' ideas carefully and forge them into a strong story. The player has to do his part of the work too, sure, but even loose ideas and clichéd concepts can make a memorable roleplaying experience in the end. So I wouldn't dismiss the aforementioned cleric as clichéd and stupid if I were the GM. Instead, I would try to exploit the roleplaying potential that offers itself and let the player explore the complexity of his/her character he/she never thought there could be.

oriong
2007-02-21, 05:46 PM
The canon is, well, just canon, not a holy script.

I have to know if this was intentional or not :smalltongue:

Dark
2007-02-21, 06:09 PM
Eilistraeen drow shouldn't be happy, cheery, prancing bastards; there's been several mentions of how they're presented in books along the course of these two threads, and they've definitely got an ugly twist to them. They should absolutely be pushing the boundaries of Chaotic Good, simply because a few generations down the line, their parents were evil drow, and even the best-intended parents will pass down some of the cultural conditioning they got as children to their own offspring. Summarily executing enemy prisoners, acting against enemies without remorse, scheming and manipulating, etc. - they can be good, but they should definitely be on the edge of it.
So... the priestess will be a happy, cheery, prancing rebel against her manipulative prisoner-executing society, trying to fight the prejudice that sees all Elistraeen drow as boundary-pushers.

Thomas
2007-02-21, 06:55 PM
So... the priestess will be a happy, cheery, prancing rebel against her manipulative prisoner-executing society, trying to fight the prejudice that sees all Elistraeen drow as boundary-pushers.

Heh heh.

I have to admit, at that point, it could just as well be a moon elf who worships Eilistraee.


Salvatore has said precisely that, in the past. Game mechanics change, he doesn't use them when creating his characters, he didn't in the past and he still does not. He looks at broad ideas, but not the details of the game mechanics. He doesn't draw up stats for the characters he makes.

Have his books incorporated the fact that drow suddenly don't get levitate as a spell-like ability? Because the WotSQ series (which he supervised, apparently) certainly incorporated this.


In any D&D book, from Dragonlance to Curse of the Azure Bonds to Salvatore's Drizzt stuff, you can hear the dice rattling in the background.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-21, 06:59 PM
What, seriously?

I want to know WTF feats Drizzt was using when he did a SPINNING BIRD KICK on a circle of like, ten Orcs. I heard a GTA-style "Insane Stunt Bonus!!!" sign go off in my head, but no dice there.

Suzaku
2007-02-21, 07:04 PM
Perhaps he has greater cleave and just killed them all. Well that's if they all died...

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-21, 07:09 PM
I admit it's been a year and then some since I read the book, but that one part sticks in my mind just for being so completely insane. What's obvious to me is that Salvatore doesn't pay attention to "the rules" as anything more than a bare-bones guideline and just writes what he wants to happen.

Thomas
2007-02-21, 08:08 PM
It's not a play-by-play rolled combat, but anyone that's read D&D books and isn't intentionally twisting the statement understands what the dice rattling in the background means.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-21, 08:35 PM
Hey, whatever man. You put out the faulty arguments, don't complain when they get refuted.

Matthew
2007-02-21, 08:45 PM
Wait, why couldn't he use the Whirlwind Attack Feat to spin kick ten Orcs? Seems like that would do it.

In any case, Thomas is right, 'hear the dice rolling / rattling' is a phrase used to describe D&D Books that refers to a less than free style of writing. Salvatore may or may not write more freely than he once did, but the influence the game mechanics (not fluff, mind you) is at least observable in his first six Drizzt books.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-21, 08:51 PM
Pardon me for taking it too literally then. Still, having read all the Drizzt books up to the present one it's obvious Salvatore doesn't really care about the rules. Hell, look at Obould---he goes from being as he's presented in the FRCS (a wussy 9th level Barbarian) to being able to slap Drizzt around like a red-headed stepchild after getting "anointed" by a Shaman (who doesn't use spells anywhere else in the book.) I'd like to see the spell that makes you go up 10 levels plz? I don't know how closely other authors stick to the rules, but Salvatore seems to do more or less what he likes, which is how I like it since the D&D rules, while fine for an RPG, far from lend themselves to a story.

Suzaku
2007-02-21, 08:53 PM
Prehaps Obould's player left and then he came back and the DM leveled him up to catch up to rest of his group and needed some fluff to explain away?

Thomas
2007-02-21, 09:03 PM
Wasn't Obould made the Chosen of Gruumsh? That was the impression I had (though I haven't read the books). That'd certainly make him a lot more powerful in one huge leap (since the Chosen template surely boosts his powers, and the process might also raise his levels).

Dark
2007-02-21, 09:21 PM
It's not a play-by-play rolled combat, but anyone that's read D&D books and isn't intentionally twisting the statement understands what the dice rattling in the background means.
Um, no, actually. If you don't mean the combat is round-by-round, then what do you mean?

Do you mean that the characters generally have abilities that fit in the D&D rules? But they don't. Raistlin and Tasslehoff Burrfoot did impossible things on a regular basis. Then there's the Fizban angle. And the Silvanesti dream sequence that twisted a whole land -- what spell does that? And the plane travel stuff didn't go by any normal D&D rules. And the time travel stuff is completely outside their scope. Relative combat power (challenge ratings) is generally all over the place.

If you're going to wave all that away and add "... except when they don't", then the statement is pretty meaningless.

Overall, the characters and their abilities tend to fit in the setting, but that goes for any fantasy setting. For that matter, the non-D&D settings tend to be more precise about how magic works and what it can do. Consider Wizard's First Rule, or the Black Magician trilogy by Trudi Canavan. Then compare to the Forgotten Realms Avatar trilogy.

I've read plenty of D&D books, and I've never heard dice rattling in the background. What do you mean?

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-21, 09:34 PM
Wasn't Obould made the Chosen of Gruumsh? That was the impression I had (though I haven't read the books). That'd certainly make him a lot more powerful in one huge leap (since the Chosen template surely boosts his powers, and the process might also raise his levels).

The Shaman said Obould was Gruumsh (e.g, they are now the same being) but Obould and the Orc elites obviously didn't believe it themselves. I don't know if it was meant to represent the "chosen template" but Obould didn't suddenly gain scary magic powers or anything---he just became a better fighter.

The other big thing was his armor was enchanted by Drow priestesses to become unbreakable. When Obould fought Drizzt, there was literally nothing Drizzt could do to harm Obould with his swords, despite connecting a whole bunch of hits that would have been lethal otherwise.

And then, just to completely pee on how D&D combat works, Obould gets his armor completely destroyed and fights Drizzt to a draw anyway.

Also spoilers.

EvilElitest
2007-02-21, 11:38 PM
ALso it is implied that Obould had gained some levels in the recent books, i mean it been a few years. I though he was like level 17 barbaian. He is also decked with magic armor and weapons
As for salvators battle writing, while he does follow D&D format, unlike a game, he has to use semi real battle tatics. What i like about salvator is that his battle scense are very well thought out and have a lot of stragery. Example is when Enterai is fighting some drow who duel weild longswords, how he has a lot of trouble becasue of the weapons lenth compared to his, even though he is a higher level. While he does win, he does not use a basic D&D method. Salvator changed battle tatic depending on how story aimed or realistic the battle is ment to be
From,
EE

Phoenix Talion
2007-02-21, 11:51 PM
Salvatore writes in pictures, if that makes any sense. That's why I like it. Not grid squares and initiative rolls and base attack bonuses for so-and-so's character level. Truth be told, I don't think you should be able to hear the dice rolling in the background. I'm not saying there doesn't need to be some consistancy between the character's action in the story and the character's stats, but once you're not limited by squares on a paper, you can open up. You're using a real-er world in some ways, and you can do things with words that you can't with game mechanics. IMHO, they're story characters first and foremost. Not characters for a game.
So while stats give a rough estimate as to the extent of their abilities, it doesn't encompass everything they can do. It's like... the difference between having someone's measurements and having their picture.

So there's my $0.02.
Or maybe I'm just tired and making no sense at all.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-22, 12:42 AM
Ah, but that phrase simply refers to writing in the milleu of D&D, not to the action actually being considered in the framework of the rules....... apparently.....

Phoenix Talion
2007-02-22, 12:52 AM
What phrase? "Hearing the dice roll in the backgound"?

I consider that to mean when you can follow the story action as you would a sequence of actions in a round, and it reads like the write-up I do for my players after a combat, and I don't consider that a good thing for a narrative.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-22, 01:23 AM
No, no, trust me on this man, it's on good authority....

Phoenix Talion
2007-02-22, 01:40 AM
What is? The phrase? Sorry, Phoenix's brain is a bit slow due to tiredness.
My point is, in a story you can do things that don't necessarily work in the game. Like a ritual that bestows permenant Cat's Grace and Bull's Strength on someone through divine intervention, which is what I understood Obould's ritual as doing in a game sense. Nothing really broken about it, except that your PC cleric couldn't do it in your weekly D&D session under normal circumstances, no matter how high his level. But in the context of the FR world setting, there's nothing wrong with it.
So I don't think it's really "peeing on how D&D combat works". Just writing a book instead of an adventure.

Jabberwocky
2007-02-22, 11:19 AM
I have to know if this was intentional or not

Hehe, partly intentional, you know. My intention was to stress the difference between the setting "canon", which can be in my opinion freely modified to fit the various needs (and therefore isn't actually as canonical as some people would think) and things like religion where you have to stick to some truths because they are, well, canonical and noone can change or modify them at will. I should have written "gaming canon" or "setting canon" but I thought it was clear :-)
P. S.: When I undertake excursions and journeys with my students, I always say that the itinerary plan is our holy script - and so it can (and often does) change wildly over the course of history ;-) Sorry for OT :-)

Woot Spitum
2007-02-22, 08:31 PM
I think what bothers me most about the books is that a warrior who has trained in fighting all his life, appears to be limited by his weapons' damage dice from slashing open a fatal wound in his enemy most of the times he succeeds on landing a hit, or the enemy's high hp total allowing them to take lots of damage. A book should be more like real life in the sense that combat wounds tend to be far more serious and deadly than they are in the average D&D session. Since Drizzt's stats seem to indicate he can't deal death from massive damage,the books always have him slowly chipping away at his foes strength. I have a problem with that.

EvilElitest
2007-02-22, 09:37 PM
I think what bothers me most about the books is that a warrior who has trained in fighting all his life, appears to be limited by his weapons' damage dice from slashing open a fatal wound in his enemy most of the times he succeeds on landing a hit, or the enemy's high hp total allowing them to take lots of damage. A book should be more like real life in the sense that combat wounds tend to be far more serious and deadly than they are in the average D&D session. Since Drizzt's stats seem to indicate he can't deal death from massive damage,the books always have him slowly chipping away at his foes strength. I have a problem with that.

Really, becuase to me i looks like he tends to kill most in two hits, with hte exception of Obould, Artimis, and Errtu.
From,
EE