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Syne
2014-06-02, 05:46 PM
This is a new use of the Search skill. I'm going to run a game that will have an investigation component, but one more similar to archaeology rather than whodunit. I didn't feel the current skills covered this sort of thing, so I made my own. I'd appreciate any suggestions/criticisms/ideas. I'm especially interested in how you think it will play out in an actual game.

I've made a major overhaul since a previous version (which is in the spoiler below). Changes:

Specified flat DCs for Investigate.
Clarified what exactly Investigate is used for: It's used for finding clues, which must then be analyzed to actually find information.
Gave example DCs for analysis checks.
Removed the "you Search while you Investigate" clause. It just causes problems.
Removed area investigation.
Removed the bit where you detect illusions. I'll make a feat of it or something. It doesn't really fit in base skill usage.
Fixed up modifiers


Thank you for your comments. I hope it's simpler/clearer now.

The Search skill is now also called Investigate. It now allows you to investigate objects in order to find clues. Each clue represents a specific piece of potential information. Some clues yield their information automatically, but others must be analyzed, which involves making another skill check in a specific skill (often a Knowledge or Craft skill). Clues normally hold information that you cannot uncover without investigating.

Each clue represents a specific piece of information that you can potentially get. When a clue needs analysis, you automatically know which skill you need to analyze it, and what information can be found from it. Sometimes, you’ll have a list of skills to choose from. You don’t have to analyze the clues you find yourself. Instead, you can have other experts analyze them (and make the skill check) for you; usually, these would be other members of your party.

Clues don’t have to be physical objects. They can be more like riddles that need solving. For example, you might notice that a slain creature is lying in a strange posture, or that the burn marks on a wall are reminiscent of a spell. This means that you can’t really carry clues around. You have to interpret them on the spot.
What it can be used for
Here is a list of examples that demonstrate what one can do with the skill.


Investigate the results of a spell, supernatural ability, etc. To identify the ability, and determine the caster.
Investigate an ancient room to determine what it was used for.
Investigate an item to determine who it belonged to.
Investigate the scene of a battle, to learn how the battle transpired.

DCs for finding clues
It’s more difficult to find clues that reveal intricate information. The following table illustrates general Investigate check DCs for uncovering clues that provide different levels of information. The examples provided are things you can discover by investigating the remains of a creature, although you can investigate other things as well.

DC
Clue Type
Example of Potential Information

5
Trivial
Race, type, subtype of a deceased creature

10
Basic
Vague time of death

15
Complex
Vague cause of death

20
Specific
Specific cause of death, more accurate time of death

25
Detailed
Information about the killer

30+
Intricate
Intricate or exact information. Things like victim’s favorite color,
pet name. How do you know this? You tell me.



Note that’s it’s possible that a clue is easy to find, but very difficult to analyze. For example, the body of a recently dead, very rare creature is an automatic clue, but identifying the creature’s type and race might require a lot of natural or arcane knowledge.

However, it’s still true that in most cases, difficult to find clues are also difficult to analyze.
Some circumstances cause penalties and bonuses on your Investigate check.
Description
Mod
Example

Contamination

The object has been contaminated, fixed, or sabotaged

Mild contamination
-5
Several parts are missing; object has been fixed or broken

Moderate contamination
-10
Skeleton only; object has been renovated

Severe contamination
-15
Most of the original is gone

Total contamination
-20
Little of the original remains

Extra information

You have extra information about the object

Familiarity
+2
You’re familiar with the object you’re investigating

Extra evidence
+4
You have many items belonging to the deceased

Verification
+8
You already know the facts about an object; you just need to verify them with evidence.



DCs for analyzing clues
After a clue is found, it usually needs to be analyzed. The following table provides examples of analysis checks (both the skill and the DC) that must be made when an appropriate clue is found.

If you find several clues about the same object, you can analyze the clues separately from each other.
Information
Clue DC
Skill
Analysis DC

Determine race, type, subtype
5 (Trivial)
Knowledge
10 + CR

Vague time of death
10 (Basic)
Knowledge, Heal
10

Vague cause of death
15 (Complex)
Knowledge, Heal
15

Profession of the deceased
15(Complex)
[No need to analyze]
--

Identify specific spell that caused death
20 (Specific)
Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana)
20 + SL

Specific time of death
20 (Specific)
Knowledge, Heal
20

Class levels of deceased
20 (Specific)
[No need to analyze]
--

Class levels of the killer
25 (Detailed)
Spellcraft, Martial Lore, etc
25 + ½ HD



How it’s used
Investigate Object
This usage allows you to investigate a single object. You must be able to use all of your senses to do this, including touch, sight, and sound. You must be able to use all of your senses to investigate the object. You cannot investigate objects with concealment from you.

When you investigate an object, you automatically find all possible clues, based on their DC and the result of your check. You don’t need to make separate checks to find different clues.

The “object” you investigate can be many things. You can investigate a room or an area as an object, which will allow you to learn about its past, what it was used for, and about the things that happened within it. This wouldn’t be the same as investigating specific objects inside the room, though.
Action: 2d6 minutes.
Retry: You cannot retry this check on the same object.

Sabotage Object
As an additional usage, you can sabotage an object so that others would find it hard to investigate it, but without physically destroying it (which could be a lot of work). To do this, make a DC 10 Investigate check. You apply a cumulative -10 contamination modifier to future attempts to investigate the object. The total contamination modifier cannot exceed -20.

You also add a Trivial clue to the object: “This object has been sabotaged.”
Action: 2d6 minutes.
Retry: You cannot retry this check on the same object.

Skill Tricks
Flash of Inspiration
“Aha! I forgot to look behind the cupboard!”
Prerequisite: Investigate 5 ranks.
Benefit: You can use this trick once per game session. You can retry an Investigate skill check you have taken previously during the session, with a +5 insight bonus.

All it Takes is a Glance
Sometimes, all it takes is a glance.
Prerequisite: Investigate 8 ranks, Spot 8 ranks.
Benefit: You can use this trick once per game session. You can take a swift action to investigate an object within 30 feet, but you take a -10 penalty on your check. This action can be taken during combat, and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

When making this check, other characters cannot interpret any of your findings. You can still retry the check by investigating normally at a later time.

Feats
Arcane Investigation
You can use your arcane knowledge and skill as an investigator to detect an object’s magical properties.
Prerequisite: Investigate 6, Knowledge (arcana) 6, Knowledge (religion) 6.
Benefit: When you make an Investigate check, you can uncover clues that reveal an object’s magical properties. These are special clues that cannot be uncovered without this feat. Some must be analyzed using Knowledge (arcana) or Knowledge (religion). This is not a magical ability.
Effect
DC
Analysis DC

Detect Magic
10
--

Detect Good/Evil/Law/Chaos
15
--

Disbelieve illusion
20
--

Identify
25
15 + ½ CL*

Discern true nature
30
20 + ½ CL*


* Use HD if effect has no CL.
Detect Magic: This works as the 0th level spell (3rd round effect), but only affects the object being investigated.
Detect (Alignment): This works as the 1st level spells (3rd round effect), but only affects the object being investigated. You can see all auras active on the object; you don’t need to choose. You do not become stunned if the aura is overwhelming.
Disbelieve illusion: You get a second Will save to disbelieve any illusions on the object. You can use your Investigate check result instead of your save result if you wish. The DC of the save is the highest applicable DC of all the illusions on the object.
Identify: This allows you to identify the properties of a magic item, as the Identify spell. The caster level used is the item’s caster level.
Discern true nature: You discern the true nature of the object, as though through True Seeing, allowing you to perceive its true form. This doesn’t allow you to see into the ethereal plane. The CL used is the highest applicable CL, from all the relevant effects affecting the object. Note that in this case, you also automatically disbelieve any illusions on the object, and don't need to make a Will save.

Old Version

Investigate
The Search skill is now also called Investigate. It allows you to, well, investigate various things in order to discover more information about them. The skill allows you to uncover substantially more information than using skills such as Knowledge and Spellcraft alone.

The higher your check result, the more findings you get. Each finding either gives you information immediately, or allows you to interpret it. In the latter case, another skill check will be called. The skill you need for this will vary, depending on the circumstances, although they will usually be knowledge/craft skills. You’ll often have several options to pick from. If you need to interpret findings, you know which skills you need to use to do so.

When a check is called to interpret something, you can have one of your allies make the check. Anyone can do this, although other characters take -4 on the check, since they’re not actively searching.

When you investigate, you take 20 on a normal search check as part of the same action. This allows you to uncover valuable items, hidden doors, and traps.

Here is a table detailing example interpretation checks for investigations, as well as information to be uncovered:



Thing to Investigate
Example Interpretation Skill (any of these)
Information to be Uncovered


Remains of creature
Knowledge (anatomy), Heal
Cause of death, time of death, identity


Ancient masonry
Knowledge (history), Craft(stonemasonry)
Identify age, original craftsmen


Results of a spell
Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft
The spell that caused the results


Room
--
The person who lived in the room.



Retry: No. You cannot retry any check made to investigate something or interpret findings until you gain more ranks in the skill. However, several characters can investigate the same object, or interpret the same finding, possibly with different skills.
Action: An investigation can be quite time consuming. See “Specific Uses” below. If you end an investigation before it is completed, you don't find anything. However, in this case, you can retry the check.
Hasty Investigation: You can also reduce the time it takes to investigate something by half, but you suffer a -10 penalty.

Check DCs
Here is a table detailing the sort of information you can expect when investigating a single object. When you’re investigating the results of an ability, such as a spell, you must usually add ½ the caster level to find specific information.

Use HD as an effective caster level for extraordinary or supernatural abilities. If the ability is none of these (a natural ability, such as a standard attack), the effective CL is 0.

Even if you succeed on your Investigate check, you will sometimes still be called to interpret your findings by making another skill check, as detailed above. Note that the interpretation check may have a high DC, even if the investigation check has a low one. For example, to determine the race of the deceased you will usually have to make a Knowledge check with DC 10 + its HD. To determine specific spells, you will have to make a Spellcraft check.



DC
Info/Usage
Example/Description


5
Trivial
The race of the deceased


10
Basic
Time of death (order of magnitude), type of an ability


10
Detect sabotage
Detect that the area has been purposefully sabotaged. Contamination penalties don’t apply.


15
Complex
Vague cause of death


15 + ½ CL
Foil illusion
You can tell if the object is illusory, and a free Will save to disbelieve the illusion with a +5 insight bonus.


20
Specific
Specific cause of death


20 + ½ CL
Specific (ability)
Name of ability used.


25
Detailed
Detailed information


25 + ½ CL
Detailed (ability)
When investigating the results of an ability, gives you information about its caster.


35+
Intricate
Intricate or exact information. Things like favorite color, *pet name. How do you know this? You tell me.


35 + ½ CL
Intricate (ability)
Intricate information about the caster of an ability.



These are example modifiers for difficult or favorable conditions.


Check Mod
Condition


Up to +20
You have extra information at your disposal, such as items belonging to the deceased.


Normally, up to -30
Some parts of the object are missing, or the object has been contaminated or disturbed, perhaps purposefully.


Up to -20
You can’t use all of your senses to investigate the object. It could be behind a glass screen, have concealment, or you could be deaf. Note that in some cases, this makes investigation impossible.


Specific Uses

Investigate Single Object
This use allows you to investigate one object, such as a statue, the remains of a creature, etc.
Time: 2d6 minutes.

Investigate Area
You can investigate an area. This is similar to searching, and it allows you to uncover meaningful objects that you can later investigate individually. A normal search doesn’t uncover such objects. You also uncover general information about the area, such as its function.
Time: 1d6 minutes per 5-foot square.

Sabotage Area
This action allows you to destroy evidence in an area, so that others would find investigating it more difficult. To do this, make an Investigate check. Further attempts made to investigate the area or any object within it suffer a contamination penalty that equals your check result, or the existing penalty; whichever is higher.

Investigators can detect an area or object has been sabotaged with a DC 10 check. Contamination penalties don’t apply.
Time: 1d6 minutes per 5-foot square.

Skill Tricks

Flash of Inspiration
“Aha! I forgot to look behind the cupboard!”
Prerequisite: Investigate 5 ranks.
Benefit: You can use this trick once per game session. You can retry one Investigate skill check you have taken during the session, with a +5 insight bonus.

All it Takes is a Glance
Sometimes, all it takes is a glance.
Prerequisite: Investigate 8 ranks, Spot 8 ranks.
Benefit: You can use this trick once per game session. You can take a swift action to investigate a visible object within 30 feet, or investigate all squares within 15 feet, but you take a -10 penalty on your check. This action can be taken during combat, and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. When making this check, other characters cannot interpret any of your findings. You can still retry the check by investigating normally at a later time.

Battle Investigator
You have gained the ability to investigate people’s heads off. Well, not really.
Prerequisite: Investigate 12, Spot 12, All it Takes is a Glance
Benefit: You can expend your All it Takes is a Glance trick as an immediate action in order to get a +5 insight bonus on a single attack roll.

jiriku
2014-06-03, 01:51 AM
It seems odd that investigating an object takes longer than investigating an area. For example, let's say I have two desks next to one another, each about four feet wide. I investigate the first desk, which takes 1d6 minutes. Then I investigate the 5' square containing the second desk. This takes only 1d6 minutes. Further, investigating a large, complex object takes the same amount of time as investigating a small, simple object. It's all a little confusing.

If players are attempting to hide their actions from an enemy NPC who is known to be a talented investigator, they'll want to use their skills to somehow increase the DC he needs to hit when investigating. You'll need some rules for some kind of contested check or rules for how other skills can be used to add flat penalties to an Investigate check.

I note that Investigate cannot be retried, but that Search can. However, Investigate grants a free Search. Moreover, taking 20 on a Search check can be less time consuming than making a single roll to Investigate (2 minutes per square compared to 1d6 minutes per square). If I want to take 20 on Search while also investigating, would that cost me 1d6+2 minutes per square?

I'd recommend some kind of guidelines at least on DCs. You want this because, without guidelines, the players don't know how much they have to investigate in a skill in order to be good at it. For comparison, a Heal check of +5 is about all you'll ever need in D&D, while a Craft check of +10 is enough to masterwork gear and a Use Magic Device check of +20 might still not be high enough for every occasion. Players can look at the sample DCs to get an idea of what to expect.

Syne
2014-06-03, 11:10 AM
Thank you for the comment.


It seems odd that investigating an object takes longer than investigating an area. For example, let's say I have two desks next to one another, each about four feet wide. I investigate the first desk, which takes 1d6 minutes. Then I investigate the 5' square containing the second desk. This takes only 1d6 minutes. Further, investigating a large, complex object takes the same amount of time as investigating a small, simple object. It's all a little confusing.

Investigating an area doesn't include investigating the objects within it. It's meant to find objects you can later investigate, or find information about the area in general. When you investigate a table, you also inspect its contents, the state of its wood, and try to understand who used it. When you investigate an area, you don't really do this for the table in particular.

However, if it's confusing, I can just remove area investigation altogether. I'm not sure if it will be useful.

As for large/complex objects, I considered this, but the problem is that I can't really meaningfully say object X is complex, but object Y is simple. Or maybe I can, but it would make things a lot of complicated. So I accomplish this using a random duration. If you roll high, the object must have been complex and if you roll low it must have been simple. Most objects will fall somewhere in the middle, and this is why I use 2d6 instead of 1d12.


If players are attempting to hide their actions from an enemy NPC who is known to be a talented investigator, they'll want to use their skills to somehow increase the DC he needs to hit when investigating. You'll need some rules for some kind of contested check or rules for how other skills can be used to add flat penalties to an Investigate check.

I've added this usage. Thank you for the suggestion.


I note that Investigate cannot be retried, but that Search can. However, Investigate grants a free Search. Moreover, taking 20 on a Search check can be less time consuming than making a single roll to Investigate (2 minutes per square compared to 1d6 minutes per square). If I want to take 20 on Search while also investigating, would that cost me 1d6+2 minutes per square?

I've added that investigation also constitutes taking 20 on a search. This has the small drawback that it can sometimes take 1 minute rather than 2, but I'd rather keep things as simple as I can.


I'd recommend some kind of guidelines at least on DCs. You want this because, without guidelines, the players don't know how much they have to investigate in a skill in order to be good at it. For comparison, a Heal check of +5 is about all you'll ever need in D&D, while a Craft check of +10 is enough to masterwork gear and a Use Magic Device check of +20 might still not be high enough for every occasion. Players can look at the sample DCs to get an idea of what to expect.

I've decided to add specific DCs. Investigation checks will almost always fall into these categories. I've thought of adding specific examples, such as the DCs for investigating remains, or investigating the effects of abilities, but I feel that would be a lot of needless typing, since they will fit into this mold anyway.

I've also added some skill tricks that I thought are sort of cool. Can you tell me what you think?

TheFamilarRaven
2014-06-03, 08:04 PM
I mean ... it seems solid ... but I am a little confused/concerned that it's extraneous ...

Let me type it out in my own words, and stop me if there's something off.

-When you want to investigate something, you automatically take 20 on a search check (or what would be a search check since this skill replaces search)

-The Search check will reveal objects/traps/hidden doors/what have you and then you roll your investigation check.

-If you roll high enough, then you find out something (hopefully relevant) about whatever it was you were investigating.

So let me know if this is accurate.

Regular DnD
-Fighter finds shiny gem in the pouch of a dead monster, (he got lucky with a search check). So he passes it to the rogue who can then appraise it to see how much it's worth.

With investigation
-fighter investigates the corpse of a dead monster. Automatically taking a 20 on search, he finds the same gem. Now lets say he rolled a natural 20 on his investigate check. He now knows the cause of death, the ability that killed him, the time he died and what creature is was. He may even determine the type of gem and how much it's worth, and discovers the same about all of the equipment he's carrying, including but not limited to the type of leather the pouch is made of, and possibly the name of the individual craftsmen. All of that without having ranks in Heal, appraise, and possibly craft and spellcraft.

^^ I know you mentioned skills that may be called in to help interpret the findings of an investigate check ... but your tables either contradict themselves ... or mislead people into thinking investigate can accomplish the same things as a knowledge or similar check. See below (apologizes for the lack of no quote, but I'm feeling lazy :smalltongue:)

Table 1-1 Examples of things to interpret
Thing to Investigate Example Interpretation Skill (any of these) Information to be Uncovered
Remains of creature Knowledge (anatomy), Heal Cause of death, time of death, identity

Table 1-2 Examples of investigation check DC's and what they may uncover.


DC Info/Usage Example/Description
5 Trivial The race of the deceased
10 Basic Time of death (order of magnitude), type of an ability


Now, unless that, you are saying that even if you fail an investigation check, you could still use the default check to uncover information?

Sorry if this is more of a question than a critique, but if I have questions that just means you need more clarity.

Syne
2014-06-04, 10:54 AM
Thanks for the comments. I rewrote most of the skill to make the relationship between investigate/interpret finding clearer. You now uncover "clues" which are things that need to be "analyzed", and I stress that uncovering "clues" by itself doesn't always give you information.

I also made the DCs a lot simpler, better organized, and moved the complexity of + HD or +CL to the analyze checks, since they're more about knowledge of specific abilities. I also fixed up the modifiers, and removed unnecessary ones.

There's little reason to use the skill in normal D&D. It's just for games that need a non-trivial investigation component.

TheFamilarRaven
2014-06-04, 03:54 PM
Much more clear ... I had another read through and I couldn't find any red flags.

Nice job. It certainly allows for clarity oh how the skill will work in the type of game you'll be running. (Although, you said it would be a bit more archaeology than whodunit, so having all the examples be about investigating a corpse, well ... doesn't give the players a good example of what it will be used for in the actually game. So while not imperative, it might be best to change that.)

jiriku
2014-06-06, 12:18 AM
It looks really good. Flash of Inspiration looks pretty useful. All it Takes is a Glance seems less so. I wonder why they're usable only once per game session. A scene will include several areas and objects to investigate and several clues to analyze, right? That means the standard once per encounter limitation for a skill trick still represents a limitation.

I am a little uncomfortable about revealing class levels of the deceased, because of all the possible information revealed through this skill, that's the only thing that is metagame knowledge. Within the d&d multiverse, characters aren't supposed to say things like "It appears that the victim was a multiclass fighter 4/rogue 3 with one level in dervish."

Syne
2014-06-06, 08:47 AM
Thank you. I'm glad it's better now :)

I've added a new feat, Arcane Investigator that I'd like some opinions on. I feel that the feat is necessary and also makes sense, but I have concerns about its impact on gameplay, especially the Identify effect, and how these benefits interact with All it Takes is a Glance.

The guideline for 1/encounter tricks in Complete Scoundrel only works for combat encounters, if I remember correctly. If the characters fight two groups of enemies in the same area, it appears that these are two different encounters, so every time they fight, they might be able to reuse the tricks, which isn't my intention.

The idea behind All it Takes is a Glance is to give the character a chance to investigate things before people might escape with them or destroy them, or when the character is really pressed for time. It's situational, but when the situation comes, it can basically solve the problem. Until then, it can be used to get a second chance to investigate something, just like Flash of Inspiration. There is a big penalty, but you don't get many chances to investigate something more than once, and so every chance is quite precious. It also becomes really powerful with Arcane Investigator; possibly too powerful.

As for the class levels, what I intend to do is give the player controlling the character metagame knowledge of the class levels, but require that the character only talk about this information in an in-game way. For example, for a Barbarian 3/Fighter 2, she might say, "the deceased must have been a member of a barbarian tribe in the high mountains, but seems to have given up his barbarous ways later in life, and gained some conventional military training."
The character might have an idea of how much training the deceased had in each of these professions; something that is equivalent to "Barbarian 3/Fighter 2", but can't really communicate all this information in a numeric way as we can do outside the game.

...I'm not really sure what she might say about a Swordsage 1/Warblade 4/Fighter 2/Cleric 1, however.

jiriku
2014-06-06, 12:30 PM
Ok, when you explain it that way, it makes sense to me.

I really like Arcane Investigation; it's a very well-designed feat, and one that can be useful at all levels of play. You're right that it is a little too good since it can be used to automatically defeat high-level illusions. How about something like this, which makes defeating higher-level spells a bit difficult:

Disbelieve illusion: You gain a second saving throw to disbelieve any illusions on the object, recognizing them for what they are. Use your Investigate check result in place of your Will save if it is higher. The DM may make this roll in secret, since you would not know the object is illusory if you fail the saving throw.

Discern True Nature worried me a little at first, but really, I can't think of any application for it beyond determining the original form of a transmuted object, and that doesn't seem unbalanced to me. Identify seems great to me; the identify spell is slow and expensive; it's a terrible spell that people only use because they have no alternatives.

Syne
2014-06-06, 01:42 PM
Thanks. That's really quite an elegant solution, and eliminated my own worries about disbelieving illusions. However, I don't require a save for Discern True Nature, since nothing will have a DC higher than 30 pre-high epic anyway, and by that time you may as well have True Seeing at will.