View Full Version : D20 Firearms rules suck

2007-02-19, 07:04 PM
I am probably not the only one who faces the issue of the d20 modern firearms rules sucking, but i have a remedy but it is a little complicated, if i some people want to know my house rules on this reply to this thread and i will tell you more

2007-02-19, 08:19 PM
Sure that sounds good. Have you read the issue of dragon, #321, that covers older firearms in regular D&D.

2007-02-20, 11:10 AM
I haven't read that issue, but there are rules for flint lock weapons in the DMG 3.5 edition, there are also rules in d20 past that can be adapted for d&d.

Anyways, i decided that the d20 firearms rules needed a little altering for a few reasons, first off according to their rules large .45 calibre hand guns deal the same ammount of damage as the much smaller 9mm guns. in real life of course the difference between these guns is quite noticeable. also shotguns are underpowered in d20 and often not worth using when a rifle can deal the same damage at a greater range.

After recieving many complaints from my players, (one of which is a gun fanatic) I did a little redesign on the rules, now certain weapons deal more damage according to their calibre. look for the calibre of your weapon on this table, next to it is the damage it deals.


.22 LR, .25 ACP : 2d4 ballistic

.32 ACP, .380 ACP, 9mm kurtz & 9mm makarov: 1d4+1d6 ballistic

9mm Luger/Parabellum, .38 special, 10mm auto, .40 S&W: 2d6 ballistic

.45 ACP, .357 Magnum: 1d6+1d8 ballistic

.44 Magnum, .50 AE, 5.7mm SS190, 4.6mm MP7: 2d8 ballistic


5.56mm NATO, 5.45mmR, 9x39mm: 2d8 ballistic

7.62x39mmR , 6.5mm Grendel: 1d8+1d10 ballistic

7.62mm NATO, 7.62x54mmR: 2d10 ballistic

.338 Laupa Magnum, .300 Winchecter Magnum: 1d10+1d12 ballistic

.50 BMG, .50 Beowulf, 12.7mm: 2d12 ballistic#

# these are anti material rounds, within the first range incriment do not reduce damage when attacking objects as other fire arms do


12-guage: 2d8 Ballistic*

10-guage: 2d10 Ballistic*

18-guage: 2d6 Ballistic*

*within 10 feet shotguns deal double damage and do not have damage reduced when attacking objects as other firearms do.

this list is by no means exhaustive, post if you need rules on unusual calibres

these are my current house rules. post if there are any questions or problems.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-20, 12:49 PM
Yeah. Tell me about these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28076).

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-20, 02:20 PM
I find the reasoning behind the relatively similar damage sound, although I agree that the weapons are just a little TOO similar.

For example, the critical hits for certain guns should be altered. A shotgun might have a higher critical threat range (ie 19-20/x2) while a hunting rifle might have a higher critical multiplier (ie 20/x3). I've got a list which is similar to this at home... When I get the chance I might post it later tonight.

2007-02-20, 02:58 PM
What do you mean 1d4d6? You roll a d4 and then roll that many d6? That's too complicated, complex needs to be as smooth and simple as it can be or it won't end.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-20, 03:03 PM
See, I was thinking he meant 1d4 + 1d6 for damage, instead of 2d6 or 2d4.

2007-02-20, 03:42 PM
I hate that you can reload a musket in six seconds. I also hate that plate mail will stop musketballs.

I sextuple reload times, allowing a feat that speeds it up. I also make them ranged touch attacks and increase damage.

2007-02-20, 04:48 PM
Apologies i did mean 1d4+1d6 for damage, not 1d4 d6's sorry, and Fax_celestis, what do you mean by your second post.

for muskets in my d&d games i do increase reload times, but you can give them a magical ability to decrease it. i also make it reduce nonmagical armor bonuses because real muskets were able to defeat the conventional armor of the day, and besides with such an extreme loading time, you want to make it worth it. i would not go so far as to make it a ranged touch attack as this makes it too easy to hit large creatures like dragons, i just cut the armor or natural armor bonus in half, if it isn't magical.

2007-02-20, 05:56 PM
Strength Ratings (that grant a Strength AB as an alternative to a Dexterity AB) for Guns are my preferred aproach. Keeps things relatively neat.

2007-02-20, 09:01 PM
I forgot to mention how to make my rules work in certain situations. like double tap and three round burst.

in the case of double tap (normally you add one dice of extra tamage) you add the first dice to the extra damage e.g. with a .380 ACP double tap deals d4+d6+d4, use the same rules for explosive rounds

for three round burst (normally add 2 dice of extra damage) add the first and then the second dice. e.g. for a .45 ACP weapon you would add d6+d8+d6+d8

I realize that it may seem like common sense, but i just wanted to spell it out, this was probably the first problem I ran into when i decided that the rules had to be changed.

P.S. for all you stargate fans out there (and i know you are out there) i ruled that the FN P90 is a medium weapon because the grip on the P90 was actually designed for one handed firing. it may make the P90 seem like an overpowered (see also"cheap") weapon , but that is what it like in real life

2007-02-20, 09:42 PM
Only problem with the P90: It's designed to defeat body armor. Its rounds tend to pass straight through targets at close range. I don't know the d20 firearms system, but how does it handle armor?

To an unarmored opponent, a single .45 ACP round would do more damage than a single 5.7mm SS190 round.

2007-02-20, 09:55 PM
I would like to maybe address the "full auto" rules in d20. Spray the target with rounds, takes up ten bullets and the max damage is the same as taking a single shot and using one bullet? Horsepuckey! Bullplop! So it's an area attack, but what if I want to shoot one fool punk up full of lead?

2007-02-20, 10:05 PM
Hmm... these are good, but putting a 9mm Luger and a 10mm Auto in the same damage category isn't exactly so realistic. For that matter, 5.56 NATO rounds do more damage to human flesh than a 7.62 Warsaw Pact round does.

2007-02-20, 11:11 PM
Well, it's hard to differentiate between 9mm and 10mm without a much more complicated system. Rolling dice to determine Hit Points lost when shot is hardly realistic anyways.

Though what you could do is "improve" the round slightly, e.g.

9mm Para: 2d6
10mm S&W: 2d6+1

...Or something like that.

Also, (at least, here in the States), 20-gauge is far more common than 18. Can't speak for the rest of the world, though.

2007-02-21, 01:37 AM
Also... remember that in automatic weapons, some of the energy from the blast is used to chamber the next round. I can't think of too many examples listed above where there should be a change to damage (not too fanatical about firearms...), but it is somthing o keep in mind.

On a slight diversion, I dislike how a 12.7mm round is only dealing a mere 2d12 damage. You you need to empty a clip into anyone 5th level or higher to down them... how do snipers stand a chance?

Also, (and this will be tied into the above nicely, do read on...) I for one get confused when there are about 50 different caliber types. It's a fanasy setting, so why not just have 3 caliber types (small medium and large) wich determine base damge, coupled with three different barrel lengths (short, medium, and long) wich dertermine range increments, and three fireing speeds (single, semiauto and automatic)?

I present a simple version of firearms for those who cannot tell the difference between a .45 ACP and a .375 Magnum:

{table=head]Type|Size|Caliber|Damage|Rate[br]of Fire|Range[br]Inc|Example
semiauto|Sm|Sm|2d6|S|30 ft|9mm Glock 17
semiauto|Sm|Med|2d8|S|40 ft|Desert Eagle
machine|Med|Sm|2d6|A|30 ft|Ingram MAC 10
revolver|Sm|Med|3d6|1|40 ft|.375 Python
Sub Machine Guns
covert|Med|Sm|4d6|A|40 ft|MP5K
standard|Lrg|Sm|4d6|A|50 ft|MP5
overt|Lrg|Med|4d8|A|50 ft|ES-C90
automatic|Lrg|Med|4d8|A|60 ft|M4A1 Carbine
semiauto|Lrg|Lrg|4d10|S|70 ft|Kreig 550
bolt action|Lrg|Lrg|4d12|1|80 ft|Artic Warfare Magnum
pump action|Lrg|BS|18d3*|S|20 ft*
automatic|Lrg|BS|18d2*|A|20 ft*
double barrel|Lrg|BS|18d3*|1**|30 ft*
Saw off|Med|BS|18d3*|1**|10 ft
*Shotguns deal damage in a cone, as below. Each square accross repesents one range increment. The number in the squares repesent how many dice to roll.
**A double barrel shot gun, and a saw off shot gun may fire two cartridges at once, provided there are two cartridges in the weapon.

*50% chance of one dice of damage.

Of cause, this relies on there not actually being a Smith & Wesson company, as all the firearms will be completely ficticious. This gets around the "but in RL, gun X has more mussle energy then gun Y", as neither gun X or Y are in the campaign. Also, at 4d12, a snipers riffle should take down all bar the toughest targets in a single shot.

If nothing else, I think my version of how a shotguns blast works is better than whats presented in the d20 modern book.[/rant]

2007-02-21, 01:49 AM
Realistically, the Desert Eagle should do the same damage as the .357 (I assume this is what you meant by .375) since the smallest caliber you can get a Desert Eagle in is .357 magnum.

2007-02-21, 02:00 AM
I've just got one pet peeve with d20 modern guns. Well, two, but you've allready solved one.

How do you handle special shotgun ammo? I mean, beehive rounds, master key rounds, dragon's breath...

2007-02-21, 02:16 AM
Flechette (beehive) rounds are actually pretty easy--since they're designed for accuracy, they should work without the spread pattern, just like regular rifles (perhaps an extra -1 to hit with every range category on top of the regular stuff).

2007-02-21, 02:22 AM
Realistically, the Desert Eagle should do the same damage as the .357 (I assume this is what you meant by .375) since the smallest caliber you can get a Desert Eagle in is .357 magnum.

Yes that is what I meant, and realistically dosnt count, as these are ficticious firearms. I justify my examples with different damages by saying that the semiautomatic firearm uses some of the enery to be imparted to the round by loading the next.

As for specialist shotgun slugs:

well, I'd call a solid slug 4d12, 20ft rang inc. with standard rules for aiming.

Um... is dragons brath like a small charge inside each pellet? If so, increase the die size (d3's to d4's, d2's to d3's).

Beehive? Master Key? No idea. What are they? Im not a gun expert, I just call it as I see it.

Tor the Fallen
2007-02-21, 02:35 AM
Snipers should auto critical, with rifles that do x4, if given enough time to study their target.

I feel that the .22 LR ammo does too much damage. 2d4 is a heap, especially in a setting where falchions regularly dish that to people's faces. .22s are notorious for bouncing of bones, being stopped by foreheads, etc. Perhaps increase their threat range, and drop them to 1d6, or 2d3.

2007-02-21, 02:42 AM
...yeah, but falchions also have 1 1/2 str in behind the 2d4 they dish out, and as you point out, have a heaps better threat range. Perhaps a "miss" with the .22 LR is the round bouncing off the targets sternum... thats flavourful if anything!

Tor the Fallen
2007-02-21, 02:53 AM
...yeah, but falchions also have 1 1/2 str in behind the 2d4 they dish out, and as you point out, have a heaps better threat range. Perhaps a "miss" with the .22 LR is the round bouncing off the targets sternum... thats flavourful if anything!

But that's still HP damage. From the stories I hear, having bullets bounce of your bones is really, really unpleasant. Doing a minumum of 2 damage with a .22 just seems silly. It can't be any more damaging than getting stabbed with a shortsword. I would imagine.

I'm not sure if I'd rather get shot by a .22 or stabbed. A stab wound would be rather big, but those .22 rounds tend to rattle around inside of bodies.

2007-02-21, 02:57 AM
dragonsbreath rounds contain small pyrotechnic charges, and are used by firemen for starting backfires to fight large forest fires.

master key rounds are packed with metal dust instead of pellets, used to break door locks.

Beehives are flechettes.

2007-02-21, 03:10 AM
Specialist shotguns rounds:

dragons breath rounds deal 1 point of fire damage per die, reduce die size (d3's to d2's, d2's to 1 point each) (?)

master key rounds have -10ft range inc. Ignore hardness of objects. (?)

behives deal 4d12 damge, do not spead.

bean bags deal 2d12 subdual blugeoning damage, -10 ft rang inc.

This sound about right? I may start to time warp PC's in and out of the future in our D&D campaign, a few guns might get used.

2007-02-21, 11:35 AM
Personally, one tweak I did for firearms is that shotguns can be readied against a charge for double damage. I felt that reflected the short range and stopping power behind the weapon class.

2007-02-21, 12:24 PM
8 ball, i have some questions, 1 how do you make three round burst and double tap work, and other special rules related to adding or increasing dice?

secondly, isn't your system a little too complicated for people new to the game? i have some newbies who are confused even by my rules.

One comment about snipers,
i have a house rule called the "Grassy Knoll" rule, which allows a sniper with an appropriate weapon to deliver an instant kill on a relatively human target (i.e. mortal, has a brain in its heat, a heart in the same location like an elf, orc, dwarf etc...) But several conditions must be met.
i will post it later

2007-02-21, 12:29 PM
Soylentplaid, if the autofire rules in modern are a dissapointment (and believe me they are) i have found that the call of cthulhu(i think thats how you spell it) are very good, they just dont work well for three round burst or double tap

2007-02-21, 02:02 PM
So it's an area attack, but what if I want to shoot one fool punk up full of lead?

Take the Burstfire feat.

Personally I find the d20 modern autofire rules far better than other systems that use 10 odd seperate attacks. They might seem stupid when you read them but they work and I find them representing every actual use of autofire.

2007-02-21, 02:24 PM
My question is: if these kinds of things are running around, how does a character even survive to 3rd level? The problem with more realistic gun rules, as I see it, is that realistically guns, especially modern guns, just mow people down, and while DnD (or d20) characters cease to be very "real" once their HPs climb into the 40s or so, at early levels they are just going to get mowed down...

Fax Celestis
2007-02-21, 02:49 PM
My question is: if these kinds of things are running around, how does a character even survive to 3rd level? The problem with more realistic gun rules, as I see it, is that realistically guns, especially modern guns, just mow people down, and while DnD (or d20) characters cease to be very "real" once their HPs climb into the 40s or so, at early levels they are just going to get mowed down...

Stealth, mostly. And starting at 4th level helps.

2007-02-21, 05:15 PM
Stealth, mostly. And starting at 4th level helps.

Precisely. I always start my d20 Modern and d20 Future games with characters at 3rd level. I also make use of the VP/WP system to help address the 'real' issue - and to make it all the easier to kill PCs.
. . .
The GM's job is to kill them all and make it look like an accident. It's practice for the Mafia.

2007-02-21, 05:57 PM
Earlier i said i have my own rules for sniper weapons. I disagree with raising damage or crit. multipliers for a few reasons.

one is this, when using a sniper weapon in close quarters, without the scope as though it was any other fire arm, why is it any better? 7.62mm NATO is used in machine guns and sniper rifles and assault rifles, why should the sniper weapon deal any more damage than the machine gun or the assault rifle if they use the same type of ammunition. and the same goes for the critical multiplier as well.

Snipers have the edge because of their scoped optics giving them the ability to attack from a great distance, without warning. regardless of wether you are using a .223 hunting rifle or a .50 BMG anti material rifle, a head shot on a human being will still be fatal in both cases. the only difference would be the range at which that shot could be made.

That said i came up with a rule that may seem complicated, but reflects how a sniper would take a shot in real life.

A sniper (which here is defined anyone with a scoped weapon and some skill) can make a shot that will instantly kill the target with the right conditions. if all of the following conditions are met then the attack will instantly slay the target, no saves:

1. the sniper must have the target in his sights for at minimum three rounds, to avoid distractions on difficult shots a concentration check is required. (note: the target does not have to be stationary, as long as it is not moving to fast the shot can still go through, e.g. a president waving to the crowd from a motorcade)

2. the sniper must have an appropriate weapon to make the kill on his target.(i.e. a .223 hunting rifle won't work for a target wearing a ballistic helmet, but a 7.62 or .50 bmg will)

3. the snipers scope must be properly zeroed (rules for that are in D20 modern)

4. the target must be unaware of the sniper or any other sniper (otherwise he will try to take cover and make random movements to throw you off, However if he is in meele or a gunfight with someone else you can still lead his movements to a degree)

5. the sniper must be profecient with the weapon he is using and not have an overall penalty on the attack roll. (you also may not apply feats like double tap, but you can use far shot and precise shot)

6. the target must a relatively human or animal like, they must be mortal, have a head or a heart or some such vital organ, if they have damage reduction you must overcome it (e.g. for vampires or lycanthropes use a silver bullet). so humans, elves, illithids and elk, bears or dire lions are all valid targets. if a creature is immune to critical hits or massive damage it is also immune to this attack.

*note: all of the regular firearm rules and ranged attack rules still apply in this case, if your weapon is unreliable and it jams, well you have to take the full round to clear it and try the shot again, also attack roll bonuses from bipods, being prone and master work weapons still factor in as do penalties from the weather and other environmental factors.

If all of the above conditions are met then the sniper may make the attack roll, if it hits the target is slain instantly. if it misses, you just wasted a lot of your time. if the DM wills it, the target may get a massive damage save. but unless the target has a good reason to have survived a direct hit to the head, heart or whatever equivalent place, i would assume that the shot killed them instantly. or the DM may decide to be nice and drop the target to -8 hp or something like that.

No feat is necessary to perform this attack, but some feats may help.

In real life this is what a sniper can do, but it takes time, 3 rounds is very generous. a real sniper could take hours or days to decide whether to take the shot.

I find that this rule makes a lot of sense to me and my players, in close quarters the rifle is just as good as any other firearm, but given time and a half decent shooter, it can be used to full advantage

2007-02-21, 10:52 PM
Ok... you asked what I do with double tap. My honest and frank answer is nothing, becouse I have never played d20 modern, or sat in on a game. I have only recently even seen the book (though I have known of it's existance for a while).

However, I do not see how double tapping on a trigger would produce two rounds from a weapon if the weapon cannot chamber the second round. That is, the RMP of the weapon must be considered.

Automatic Fire Rules. I hate these. Take the M4A1 Carbine assult riffle for instance. It has a RPM of 600. This means that in a full round action (6 seconds) it can unload 60 rounds, albeit very inacurately. The catch is that it has a clip capacity of 30 rounds. The automatic fire rules say that a 10ft by 10ft square is targeted by 10 rounds as a full rould action. Increase this to 30 rounds from a M4, or an AK-47, or 50 rounds from a P90 (900 RPM!), or all 17 rounds from a 9mm Glock 17.

Burst Fire. Again... 5 rounds? I say no. 5 rounds per attack. You make a number of attacks as per your BAB. So, someone with a BAB of +11 may make 3 bursts of 5 rounds as a rull round action, the first at +11, the second at +6, the third at +1. Each attack is at a -4 penalty, or -2 if you have the feat, becouse of recoil. Each burst may be aimed at a different target if the firer so wishes. If a burst hits, deal x2 damage. If it hits by 10 or more, deal x3 damage. If a crit is scored, deal extra damage. A crit is x3, a crit with the confirm hitting by 10 or more deals x4.

Double Tap. The whole chambering the gun thing. Ok. You shoot two rounds with one attack. The attack is made at a -4, or -2 if you have the feat (again, recoil). If you hit, deal normal damage. If you hit by 5 or more, deal x2 damage. If a crit is scored, deal extra damage. A crit is x2, a crit with the confirm hitting by 5 or more deals x3.

Sure I like your grassy gnoll thing, but I'd let players take 20 on an attack. The attack roll is made to confirm a crit. Becouse it's taking 20, it takes a full 2 min to line up a shot. This time includes finding the target, assesing any armor the target has, and chooseing the right time to take the shot. In effect, I call 1d10+10 rounds. If the target is immune to crits, apply normal rules.

2007-02-22, 12:18 AM
Alright, i see what you mean, but i have a few comments.

admittedly the existing rules suck ad i have already said that i personally perfer the rules from Call of Cthulhu (but i hate spelling that word)

secondly, i find your rules a little bit overcomplex. i have a mixed party in my games, me (the GM) and the other player are gun nuts and we fight excessively over small details, and things like that. he has a very similar way of doing things, but his answers are usually hard to digest quickly. but then we have some people who couldn't tell an M16 from a pointed stick. my party is who the rules are for, i find it to be a comfortable middle ground. they are better than the book, but not too far removed.

And about taking 20, i tried that. one problem though, 2 min is a really long time to have the enemy in your sights and be unable to act. if they pass out of your LOS, you have to spend 2 minutes again. also an auto crit still carries too high a chance of survival, a .50 BMG to the head and a human is dead, i dont care if your CON is 25, unless you are immortal, or have something else to protect you are going to die. in fact i had a case where someone (NPC) took a .30-06(a pretty big round) to the head, and according to the massive damage save I rolled, he lived. of course i fudged the roll, so that he did die. but my point is there shouldn't have even been a chance for him to live.

I'm not trying to hate on people who have different rules, but i am trying to explain the way i approached my house rules

2007-02-22, 12:25 AM
or all 17 rounds from a 9mm Glock 17.

GLOCK 18, actually. The 17 is semi-auto only.

2007-02-22, 12:45 AM
I see what you mean about taking a huge round to the head, but my snipers are dealing 4d12 to start with, 8d12 on a crit, and I have my own rules about massive damage:

- Massive damage threshold for medium creatures is 50.
- For each size catagry larger, add 10
- For each catagry smaller, subtract 10 (to min 10)
- The base fort save DC for massive damage is 20
- for every 5 points of damage recived above the threshold, add +2 to the DC

- An ogre (large) takes 54 points of damage. Not massive.
- A human (medium) takes 54 points of damage. Fort DC 20 or die.
- A halfling (small) takes 54 points of damage. Fort DC 24 or die.

Why? Becouse whether your takeing a shotgun blast to the face, or having a greatsword shoved fair through your chest, you should die.

Also, with the LOS thing, the two minutes including picking your best shot includes the target passing out of LOS for no more than 3 consecutive rounds. So the target may be in and out of sight (walking along a path with trees on the side your on, in and out of a crowd, go into the next room and come back, etc.)

2007-02-22, 12:52 AM
Again we have different methods but we have arrived at a very similar answer and conclusion

as a side note, did you modify meele damage as well?

2007-02-22, 12:59 AM
Here is another question for you people out there

what should i do with semi auto or area of effect weapons, like grenade launchers (e.g. the Milkor MGL or the HK GMG)?

i dont quite know how this one should work

2007-02-22, 03:56 AM
My thing with melee damage is a sword dosn't hurt unless someone swings it at you hard. Hence I have not modified melee damage, relying on the strength modifiers to deal a whole lot of the damage. (My favourite campaign type is low magic, but still high powered, ie. a character pretty much has one 18 and a few 16's for stats)

This way, a glock say, is on par with the likes of a mace. 2d6 vs 1d8+3

Your biggers guns like the ol' M4 are slightly more effective than a greatsword, and rightly so. 4d8 (x2, three times a round) vs 2d6+6 (three times a round)

Remember the crit range on a gun is still fairly poor (20/x2) compared to most D&D melee weapons (19-20/x2 or 20/x3)

In any case, in a gun fight, use a gun. If your standing around with a battleaxe, don't be too suprised when you get shot up.

Area effects. Double the listed damage. Yes, a rockect launcher starts dealing 20d6 damage, but they are designed to take down aircraft (which should has a lot more hit points! When a PC has more than a corprate jet's 44hp, there's got to be somthing wrong...) and tanks (again... 64 hp? give me a break... a PC has that much by level 10).

Semi auto. In my (now very different system...) semiauto pistol's get to double tap. A revolver cant. Semiautomatic riffles have the following:

- 1 attack as a standard action
- 1 attack per attack in a full round action
- a double tap as a standard action (-4 to attack) (feat for -2)
- a burst of two rounds per attack in a full round action (-4 on each attack) (feat for -2)
- a spray as a move equivilent action fireing 5 rounds, covering two adjacent 5ft squares. (one attack roll at -4, each opponent makes a reflex save against that for 1/2 damage) (feat for -2)

The spray cannot be taken in conjunction with any other attack, but two can be performed as a full round action.

Remember that semiauto riffles are the worst of sniper riffles and assult riffles tied together: you dont really want to be in combat with them, and you really dont want to snipe with them.

2007-02-22, 10:13 AM
i dont know about doubling the listed damage though, a grenade launchers area of effect might increase on semi auto's because the grenades do not land in the exact same place, maybe they should scatter or something

also what about fully automatic grenade launchers?

2007-02-22, 10:22 AM
Grenades I run like modern D20 runs grenades (and D&D runs alchemists' fire); Grenades target squares rather than characters, and people in the area of effect get a saving throw, generally for half damage, though secondary effects (such as deafening or disorientation) generally negate on a save.

An automatic grenade launcher, I'd say could fire one grenade per attack in a round (i.e. someone could use multiple attacks in a round to fire grenades with it).

Personally, I feel that single-shot weapons should reload with a move action, semi-auto weapons should be expressed by allowing multiple attacks in a single round as well as the rapid shot (and arguably manyshot as well) feat, and automatic weapons should have an area effect with a saving throw.

2007-02-22, 10:53 AM
You know, it's funny how they explain how firearms made armors absolete, but never explained, in game terms, how.
If you get two guys with pistols, one in full plate, and the other with normal clothes, the guy in armor has better chances of walking away from the duel.

To don't make a few centimeters of steel completely useless, I houserule that only half the AC's bonus (rounded down) works against firearms.
Didn't had any problems with damage. The higher damage (a hand pistol deals more damage than a sling or hand crossbow, a shotgun deals more damage than a longbow, etc) and the high damage on criticals (big threat range 19-20 or 18-20 plus high multiplier of x3 or x4) makes them deadly in medieval settings.

2007-02-22, 10:54 AM
an auto matic grenade launcher is like a machine gun that is loaded with grenades, one attack is too few. i think that they the first attack should hit and x many other grenades should deviate as though the attack missed(due to recoil). the question now is should it be treated as a simultaneous attack or resolved in order, and how many grenades in one round?

2007-02-22, 10:00 PM

...fully automatic granade launcher?


(broken comes to mind...)

Range inc 20 ft. This represents the dificulty of aiming at distance, with a maximum range of 200 ft.
Capactiy: A chain of 40mm granades. 1 full round action to load a new chain.
One granade launched per attack, as provided by high BAB. This slow fire rate takes into account the time it takes to to line the next 40mm nade up, and the firer setteling any recoil and taking time to line up his next shot.
You aim the 'nades at a square. The Square has AC 5. If you miss, roll diviation, as normal.
Size: Huge. Mounted on a hummer, a light APC, a troop transport chopper, a tripod, etc.
Keep the 'nades blast radius and damage as listed. This thing is a bucket of unbalance.

2007-02-22, 10:05 PM

...fully automatic granade launcher?

Yeah, I'd be very cautious about giving my players access to one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_19).

2007-02-22, 11:55 PM
Agreed but my party has some crazed people in it, and an even more crazed GM (that being me)

2007-02-23, 12:28 AM
...now I want to be in one of your games so I can convince you to give me one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOS-1).

2007-02-23, 10:23 AM
don't we all

aside form that i am running a military campaign, automatic grenade launchers and anti material rifles come with the turf

2007-02-26, 10:34 AM
Also, since it is a military campaign, I also need some ideas for rules on Miniguns and Vulcan cannons, and once again i need some ideas. any thoughts?

2007-02-27, 12:26 PM
You know, I never knew a fully automatic grenade launcher existed. I thought by 'automatic grenade launcher', that it would be a SEMI-auto weapon... personally, I'd make it consume multiple grenades when firing, and produce a large (30-40 feet) burst effect.

As for heavy automatic guns, I'd have line-effect damage, reflex save for half.

2007-02-27, 12:56 PM
Full auto grenade launchers do exist, but they are not man portable, they are either stuck on vehicles as a substitute for a heavy machine gun or on tripods for dug in positions

While they are (usually) too heavy for a character to carry, that doesn't mean that the rules aren't needed.

I ask for them (the rules i mean) because in Blood and Guts: Modern Military the damage is marked with a * but when i looked for the explanation, there was none. it just deals * dmage, lol, the rules are broked

2007-02-27, 01:25 PM
In that blood and guts book, it probably deals damage based on the grenades loaded in there.

I think your average frag grenade deals 3d6 damage.

2007-02-27, 02:31 PM
You know, I never knew a fully automatic grenade launcher existed. I thought by 'automatic grenade launcher', that it would be a SEMI-auto weapon...

Such things (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkor_MGL) do exist as well.

2007-02-27, 02:42 PM
Look, you want realistic rules for how guns affect people? Switch over to the star wars wound system.

If you critical, you wound them, and deal wound points; you have an amount of wound points equal to your con score, and if you reach -10 wound points, you die.

all other HP is grazes and such, and you getting tired from wrenching around in combat, or having a shot bruise you through your kevlar vest.

you'd have to lower the Crit ranges though.

2007-02-27, 05:22 PM
In that blood and guts book, it probably deals damage based on the grenades loaded in there.

the issue is not the damage ammount, but how it deals damage, i think it would be very different from a standard grenade launcer, namely it is automatic and can put a lot more rounds out there than an underbarrel grenade launcher can.

2007-02-27, 05:28 PM
My guess is still that it deals the same damage as its' component grenades, simply over a larger burst area and at longer range. But I don't have the book to be able to look at the burst radius and range of the weapon.

2007-02-27, 11:02 PM
I was thinking more of a barrage type thing, you make the attack roll and the first one hits, so that one does not deviate. but the followup attacks (i would assume three others) all deviate seperately. apply damage normally.

(was that clear, or did that just not make any sense?)

2007-02-27, 11:05 PM
I was thinking more of a barrage type thing, you make the attack roll and the first one hits, so that one does not deviate. but the followup attacks (i would assume three others) all deviate seperately. apply damage normally.

(was that clear, or did that just not make any sense?)

So basically, the first one hits, all the other attacks randomly deviate as if they were, well, grenade misses (roll the 1d8 for direction, etc)?

2007-02-28, 10:57 AM
pretty much, i dont think that automatic grenade launchers would be all that precise.

2007-02-28, 11:06 AM
I also hate that plate mail will stop musketballs.
This is a bit off-topic now, but I know I've seen a show - either one of those History channel weapon shows or MythBusters - where they tested the effectiveness of plate armour against muskets and other primitive firearms, and the plate armour did, actually, stop the bullet. You might have a bruise, but that's it.

2007-02-28, 11:08 AM
I also have to add something, since i saw that problem with Auto grenade launchers i looked to see if there were any other porblems.

In D20 weapons locker i noticed something, the HK G11, can be purchased, whats up with that. only about 1000 were ever produced and all of them have supposedly been retired, there are only a few left as collectors items. i do not see why the weapon can be purchased at all.

and even if one could aquire the weapon. where would the Ammo come from. the round is unique, and not produced anymore.

i love the G11, it is an engineering marvel. but why would a weapon that existed only breifly in the 1980's be available for purchase.
Any thoughts?

2007-02-28, 01:49 PM
Maybe because D20 Modern does not equate to "D20 Modern Earth", so you could have as many of them as you like in your campaign.

Or maybe they just wanted more guns in the book.

Does that weapons locker book include energy weapons and other things banned or regulated by international law?

2007-02-28, 05:09 PM
No energy weapons, or antitank RPG type weapons, but it has an endless supply of conventional weapons, everything from compact handguns to hunting rifles to anti material rifles. also it has nothing from WW2 or previous, that is covered in D20 past. and yes that may include some things that are banned by law, but that is what the restriction rating is for.

and as far as i am concerned I believe that d20 modern does reflect earth. i am pretty sure Heckler und Koch does not exist on other planets.

2007-02-28, 05:12 PM
Then go with the "more guns in book" theory.

Good to know about that, though, since I'm planning out a D20 game that would involve alien modern technology, and if that kind of weaponry wouldn't be outlined, then I'll know not really to bother with that class of sourcebook.

2007-02-28, 11:14 PM
if you got a campaign like that then try D20 future its got some great stuff, and rules for starships mechs and some things that you probably wont use in a future campaign. that doesn't make it any less cool tho