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Fireball.Man.Guy.
2007-02-20, 12:09 PM
WOOT! Am I the only one who sees why he got croaked? Always have a plan.

ObadiahtheSlim
2007-02-20, 12:35 PM
Poor Leeroy. He can't eat chicken anymore. Now what will he have to cheer himself up when he wipes the raid?

samir1stdude
2007-02-21, 06:50 AM
leeroooooooy!!!!!!!

he must have been killed by the dwagons!

Swashbuckler
2007-02-21, 10:20 AM
Leeeeeeeeeeroooooooooooooooooooooooy! :biggrin:

Giggled my arse off when I read the comic this morning. Don't worry ... it's back on now. :smallwink:

blackout
2007-02-21, 10:25 AM
I also spotted Archduke Ferdinand in there...his death led to the beginning of World War I, didn't it? That's TWO people that the world at large seems familiar with...<_< This raises some very interesting questions.

IronSoldier820
2007-02-21, 10:33 AM
Oh man thats hilarious, Sir Leeroy Jenkins.

Tokiko Mima
2007-02-21, 10:54 AM
Honestly, I never got why people think that Leeroy thing was so funny. It was mildly racist in tone, obviously staged, and not particularly surprising in resolution. But to each there own, I suppose.

I do find it interesting that each warlord has a different bullseye painted on them. :p

Atlas
2007-02-21, 02:28 PM
it was mildly racist in tone

Wait... what? Is there some sort of slur in the audio that I never heard, or some slang term with which I am unfamiliar that indicates it was racist? I've never heard that charge leveled at it before.

The rest of your criticisms are apt, though I did laugh heartily anyway.

Megalomaniac2
2007-02-21, 03:37 PM
I loved the Leeroy cameo, but not nearly as much as Ensign Redshirt being in there.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-21, 03:43 PM
Wait... what? Is there some sort of slur in the audio that I never heard, or some slang term with which I am unfamiliar that indicates it was racist? I've never heard that charge leveled at it before.

The rest of your criticisms are apt, though I did laugh heartily anyway.

The voice-over for Leroy Jenkens is an african american. To some people, this means it is racist. Personally, I think they should stop living in the '60's... but hey, whatever floats yer boat, man.

Tussy the Druid
2007-02-21, 03:43 PM
Leeroy gives me the giggles everytime. Even if it was staged.

Joran
2007-02-21, 03:47 PM
The voice-over for Leroy Jenkens is an african american. To some people, this means it is racist. Personally, I think they should stop living in the '60's... but hey, whatever floats yer boat, man.

*blink* Really? I always thought he was a white guy... My apologies if I offended anyone.

Dabble
2007-02-21, 03:54 PM
I for onr appriciated the names of the warlords. Leeroy! Ensign toast was nice as wes Lord Manpower the Tempory.

I was looking for Sir Canon Foder actually

talsine
2007-02-21, 03:57 PM
Ah, good times, Lord Manpower gets me the most though, as i was working for them only a couple months back. Good times. good times

Thanatos
2007-02-21, 06:56 PM
The voice-over for Leeroy Jenkins is an african american. To some people, this means it is racist. Personally, I think they should stop living in the '60's... but hey, whatever floats yer boat, man.No, it wasn't a black guy, though he was trying to make his voice sound that way, but the name "Leroy" (spelled Leeroy in the game, due to the normal spelling already being taken) and the focus on fried chicken are both stereotypically black, at least in the Southeast US.

It was staged by that guild as a joke. I don't think it was aimed at being racist, just a joke on how one person can screw things up for everyone in raids like that. Maybe it is midly racist for using the stereotypes, but I think it falls under Avenue Q's take (http://www.lyricsondemand.com/soundtracks/a/avenueqlyrics/everyonesalittlebitracistlyrics.html) on that subject.

Tokiko Mima
2007-02-21, 07:20 PM
Yeah, that's why I said mild... they probably didn't mean it be, but the "joke" as it were does rely on a African American stereotype while it's manufactured nature makes its bias suspicious. It's a borderline issue, and I'm not trying to call anyone out for racism if they enjoyed it. Just relating why I didn't find it either funny or in good taste.

Luvlein
2007-02-21, 07:25 PM
The Leroy Jenkins video was boring, to me.

Thanatos
2007-02-21, 09:04 PM
Yeah, that's why I said mild... they probably didn't mean it be, but the "joke" as it were does rely on a African American stereotype while it's manufactured nature makes its bias suspicious. It's a borderline issue, and I'm not trying to call anyone out for racism if they enjoyed it. Just relating why I didn't find it either funny or in good taste.
The joke doesn't rely on that at all. If anything, it's new players and young ones that are discriminated against for playing ability in WoW. Race-wise, it's the Asians that have a hard time, because many people associate them with the companies (mostly in China and Korea) that make real-world money by selling in-game currency.

I currently play DDO (Dungeons & Dragons Online), which has voice chat built in, so you don't have to use an external program as the WoW players do, and I've met only one black guy (a reasonably good player, too). Now, DDO has a somewhat older playerbase than WoW, and it has slightly more female players percentage-wise, but I'm not sure that would affect it's racial mix much.

Anyway, the point is, most of the playerbase for MMOs is white or asian, there really aren't enough black players yet for there to be a stereotype about them in that area. Leeroy mimicing an accent and stereotype may be in poor taste, but it wouldn't have been done with the purpose of defaming black WoW players.

JonathanC
2007-02-21, 09:25 PM
The voice-over for Leroy Jenkens is an african american. To some people, this means it is racist. Personally, I think they should stop living in the '60's... but hey, whatever floats yer boat, man.
No, it wasn't. The voice-over wasn't an African American...I've seen a picture of the guy from a link on the Blizzard boards, and he's caucasian. The complaints have nothing to do with the voice-over; the *avatar* looked african american, and the last thing he says is "at least I got chicken". You're probably a bit young to remember this, but there are a number of racist stereotypes involving african americans and eating chicken.

And yes, the whole thing was obviously staged. The so-called "leader with a plan" did as much or more to ensure the wipe (by running over all of the eggs like a dumbass) as Leeroy did.

MolotovH
2007-02-21, 11:42 PM
Eh... OK, I guess Leeroy fits with the others, but I think there were better choices to fill that spot.

More importantly, though, who is "Lady Phat-Singh"? I've tried Google and Wikipedia both, to no avail. Any ideas?

Never mind... Got it now. So ashamed of myself... :smallredface:

Thanatos
2007-02-21, 11:53 PM
No, it wasn't. The voice-over wasn't an African American...I've seen a picture of the guy from a link on the Blizzard boards, and he's caucasian. The complaints have nothing to do with the voice-over; the *avatar* looked african american, and the last thing he says is "at least I got chicken". You're probably a bit young to remember this, but there are a number of racist stereotypes involving african americans and eating chicken.

And yes, the whole thing was obviously staged. The so-called "leader with a plan" did as much or more to ensure the wipe (by running over all of the eggs like a dumbass) as Leeroy did.Right, it's obvious that he ran over the eggs, and he even ran up to pull a couple of those draco-centaur things (it's been over a year since I played WoW, I forget what the monster type is).

It's too bad that they talk over the comment about something with a Warlock, because lots of people assume there was a warlock who put the soulstone (a precast ressurection failsafe) on themself. While that would be stupid in a group situation because the warlock cannot then ressurect anyone else after popping up, it appears to me that there was no warlock in the raid at all. Warlocks are a "pet" class, so one would've probably had his Imp out in that situation (set to passive mode so it doesn't cause trouble) so everyone would've gotten the fire resistance and stamina buffs from it. I think the warlock comment was someone just pointing out that there was no soulstone because there was no warlock.

*******

As to the "african-american" thing... I agree with this poem by Smokey Robinson: http://www.slicksno.com/thalookout/black_am_poem.php (some profanity). Changing the "acceptable term" for a race isn't going to make discrimination go away. Just stick with a simple term that works and stop worrying so much.

Am I a Welsh-American (my surname, Jenkins, is predominantly Welsh in origin), or maybe just a Celt-American because my mom's side was of Scot origin? While I like Welsh and other Celtic mythology and languages, I've never been to those parts of the world nor been a part of their cultures, and my family line has been away from them for generations. Racially, I'm just white. Nationally, I'm American. Most black Americans have as little link to their ancestral history as I do, if not less. Hell, some of them even have the surname Jenkins because someone in their line adopted it over a century ago.

Trying to be overly PC about the issue of race just amplifies it. If someone is secure in their identity, they can take an intentional slur and turn it around. If someone's insecure, the "proper" term of one generation will become a slur to the next... I think that's why Smokey says it's a shame that the "correct" term for black keeps changing.

Silencer
2007-02-22, 12:18 AM
I also spotted Archduke Ferdinand in there...his death led to the beginning of World War I, didn't it? That's TWO people that the world at large seems familiar with...<_< This raises some very interesting questions.

It's a sad thing that a historical figure is recognizable on par with a bloke that played an online game :'(

Thanatos
2007-02-22, 12:30 AM
It's a sad thing that a historical figure is recognizable on par with a bloke that played an online game :'(
It's not about historical importance, it's about (sub)cultural relevance. The target audience for the comic is internet/gamer geeks, not necessarily history enthusiasts. I'm sure that facts about Archduke Ferdinand have been featured (and responded to correctly) far more often on Jeopardy! than Leeroy Jenkins has.

Silverlocke980
2007-02-22, 12:31 AM
I love the names of the zombies, but Leeroy Jenkins is a particular favorite.

Though "descending order of freshness" was great, too. Stanley FTW!

Silencer
2007-02-22, 06:38 AM
It's not about historical importance, it's about (sub)cultural relevance. The target audience for the comic is internet/gamer geeks, not necessarily history enthusiasts. I'm sure that facts about Archduke Ferdinand have been featured (and responded to correctly) far more often on Jeopardy! than Leeroy Jenkins has.

I do agree with you, Thanatos, though blackout originally wrote "the world at large", which IMO implied non-geeks as well...

Erloas
2007-02-22, 02:04 PM
Personally the Leeroy Jenkin's thing was just like the o'rly thing earlier. It made me loose more respect for the comic. Its not that it is overly bad, but its not good and there isn't a lot else left to balance it out. To me the comic seems a lot like a sitcom in presentation, the setups are fairly obvious and they could be amusing but its not really anything new. A lot of it just seems like it could be replaced with [insert generic comment or reference to internet/gaming culture here] and the Leeroy Jenkins thing fits right in that category.

ImpFireball
2007-02-22, 03:16 PM
Dudes, Leeroy probably died because he ran ahead at the most inoppurtune time to attack the enemy forces on the battlefield, before any of his own soldiers could catch up.

That seems obvious enough. I wonder why the hell anyone hasn't said that yet.

ObadiahtheSlim
2007-02-22, 04:09 PM
Of course the Leeroy Jenkins video was staged. You had the clueless leader with a bad plan. You had the subtle jabs at paladins. Even the whole raiding is srs bsns feel to the dialog (number crunching). It was supposed to make fun of the people who take raiding way to seriously and forget that its a game and they are supposed to have fun.

Mr Wizard
2007-02-22, 08:40 PM
http://www.penny-arcade.com/leeroy_card.jpg

Fus.Weapon 1337
2007-02-22, 09:27 PM
Holy carp! They made a WoW card of him?!

And that look on his face, heheheh.

Logic
2007-02-22, 09:55 PM
Honestly, I never got why people think that Leeroy thing was so funny. It was mildly racist in tone, obviously staged, and not particularly surprising in resolution. But to each there own, I suppose.

I do find it interesting that each warlord has a different bullseye painted on them. :p
The voice-over is definitely staged, but the video itself may not be. I say may in the least serious tone possible.

Mr Wizard
2007-02-22, 10:45 PM
He is a "Paul Bunyan" figure for WoW and players of other MMO's. He caught the imagination of players who wanted to play the game without memorizing "optimal tactics and strategies" just to enjoy the game. This is why Leeroy Jenkins is so popular.

Korias
2007-02-22, 10:53 PM
I agree, Mr. Wizard. The entire video was probably staged, but it had one purpose. Wow isnt about crunching the numbers to see wether you can take something down. I play the game with one thing in mind, and thats to do as many quests as possible, and then have fun. I want to take down everything that stands in my wake. Leeroy stands as an idol for all Wow-ists to go forth and take down the largest, baddest foe, and simply watch the carnage.

We are the disciples of Jenkinism. Here us Shout.

Mr Wizard
2007-02-22, 11:02 PM
That and the internet community is basically a frontier culture, and Leeroy is one of its new "Legends".:tongue:

Mr._Wilson
2007-02-23, 12:13 AM
lol.

Leeroy as Paul Bunyon. That's friggin' funny.

pclips
2007-02-23, 12:22 AM
lol.

Leeroy as Paul Bunyon. That's friggin' funny.

No, I've covered this. On the Intertubes, Chuck Norris is Paul Bunyan (http://www.partiallyclips.com/index.php?id=1423).

Mr Wizard
2007-02-23, 01:21 AM
Umm...

Pecos Bill?

Although that is another Paul Bunyan type.

So, who died doing something others admired?

I swear its on the tip of my tounge! Someone answer or I may stay up at night with the serious business of finding a frontier analogue to Leeroy Jenkins hanging over me. :(

Cobra_Ikari
2007-02-23, 01:34 AM
By the way, both the video and the voiceover were confirmed to be staged, though it is clamed to have been based off an actual occurrence. Just in case you wanted to know.

...and Dives is so much more awesome than Leeroy.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-02-23, 02:15 AM
Umm...

Pecos Bill?

Although that is another Paul Bunyan type.

So, who died doing something others admired?

I swear its on the tip of my tounge! Someone answer or I may stay up at night with the serious business of finding a frontier analogue to Leeroy Jenkins hanging over me. :(
The legendary figure you are thinking of is John Henry who died digging a tunnel through a mountian faster than a machine to the 'wow' of others. Pecos Bill rode the tornado...

ElfLad
2007-02-23, 02:35 AM
I'd say Leeroy's John Henry. They both "went out in a blaze of glory, so to speak.

Azrael
2007-02-23, 04:25 PM
I know it's a little late, but wow! Look at that Leeroy. Clearly looks black to me. Oh, and don't forget, only african-americans eat fried chicken.

Yes, it is fake. Ben Schulz, who voiced Leeroy has even done interviews saying it was faked as a satire on nerd-guilds.

No, the skit is not racist.

"His voice sounds like an african-american"? Cripes, that is racist.

He looks black? No he doesn't.

"He's eating fried chicken, that must be a racial slur!" No, it isn't. People *do* eat fried chicken.

Sure, if he said something in jive, ate fried chicken and guzzled a grape soda while fixing his afro with one of those long afro-combs, then there might be the case for it being a bad '70s era sitcom stereotype.

Tokiko Mima
2007-02-23, 06:39 PM
I know it's a little late, but wow! Look at that Leeroy. Clearly looks black to me. Oh, and don't forget, only african-americans eat fried chicken.

That's Mike Krahulik's official Blizzard sanctioned portrayal. There are others which featured more prominently in popularizing Leeroy's internet meme. (http://wiki.ytmnd.com/images/7/72/Leeroy.jpg)


Yes, it is fake. Ben Schulz, who voiced Leeroy has even done interviews saying it was faked as a satire on nerd-guilds.

No, the skit is not racist.

"His voice sounds like an african-american"? Cripes, that is racist.


No, frankly Ben Schulz sounds to me like a white guy who is trying very hard to sound like a black guy. It seems forced to me, and it could be from the poor quality of the audio making it difficult to tell. But that's opinion and conjecture. A substantial portion of the people watching the video do come to the conclusion that Ben Schulz is black (http://www.digg.com/gaming_news/The_real_Leeroy_Jenkins_Ben_Schulz), or at least trying to sound black.

The issue is with the name, the voice, and the fried chicken reference all tied together in one persona. Again, it's almost certainly not a racist video in intent. I'm sure PALS FOR LIFE did set out with the intention of being insulting to African Americans. They just didn't consider that anyone would be upset. In the end it's a little tasteless, that's all.

Thanatos
2007-02-24, 12:17 AM
Personally the Leeroy Jenkin's thing was just like the o'rly thing earlier. It made me loose more respect for the comic. Its not that it is overly bad, but its not good and there isn't a lot else left to balance it out. To me the comic seems a lot like a sitcom in presentation, the setups are fairly obvious and they could be amusing but its not really anything new. A lot of it just seems like it could be replaced with [insert generic comment or reference to internet/gaming culture here] and the Leeroy Jenkins thing fits right in that category.
Well, if Ansom takes the last city, he can taunt Stanley with "All Your Base Are Belong To Us", so I guess you're rooting for Stanley's side, then?

Vorais
2007-03-11, 07:57 PM
No, frankly Ben Schulz sounds to me like a white guy who is trying very hard to sound like a black guy. It seems forced to me, and it could be from the poor quality of the audio making it difficult to tell. But that's opinion and conjecture. A substantial portion of the people watching the video do come to the conclusion that Ben Schulz is black (http://www.digg.com/gaming_news/The_real_Leeroy_Jenkins_Ben_Schulz), or at least trying to sound black.

The issue is with the name, the voice, and the fried chicken reference all tied together in one persona. Again, it's almost certainly not a racist video in intent. I'm sure PALS FOR LIFE did set out with the intention of being insulting to African Americans. They just didn't consider that anyone would be upset. In the end it's a little tasteless, that's all.

Would you stop trying to turn the Leeroy Jenkins thing into a racism thing? I mean seriously people like you are usually either very racist yourself or have no idea what racism is.

First of all, Ben Schulz is a whilte guy and he lives here in Denver. Secondly, that is his natural voice. He is not trying to sound black and I don't know why people assume that. Stop throwing th eracism card around, you are ruining it for when people actually need to use it.

Beleriphon
2007-03-11, 08:03 PM
Holy carp! They made a WoW card of him?!

And that look on his face, heheheh.

Whats better is that he's more useful is you actually yell LEEEEEEROOOOOOY JENKINS! during play.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-03-11, 09:10 PM
Leeroy's trading card makes him look like a nutcracker!

Tokiko Mima
2007-03-12, 09:28 AM
Would you stop trying to turn the Leeroy Jenkins thing into a racism thing? I mean seriously people like you are usually either very racist yourself or have no idea what racism is.

First of all, Ben Schulz is a whilte guy and he lives here in Denver. Secondly, that is his natural voice. He is not trying to sound black and I don't know why people assume that. Stop throwing th eracism card around, you are ruining it for when people actually need to use it.

Wait, wait... lemme get this straight.

You just necroposted an almost 3 week-since-last-post thread on which I suggested that the whole Leeroy Jenkins thing was a little bit in poor taste, in order to accuse 'people like me' of being an ignorant racist?

Welcome to the boards by the way, as I notice this is your third post. I'm well aware of the actual race of Ben Schulz and the history of his viral video. I'm not throwing any card around, and I have yet to accuse anyone of anything. I merely pointed out why I find it in poor taste. If you need an example, this picture/link is a reason why someone might find Leeroy offensive. There are others. (http://wiki.ytmnd.com/images/7/72/Leeroy.jpg) I still refuse to call anyone a racist whether they enjoy Leeroy or not. You can like whatever you want to like or vice versa.

In the future, please familiarize yourself with the board rules. They are found here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=47&a=1)

Azrael
2007-03-12, 10:06 AM
Kettle, meet Pot.

Sure, that picture you linked is 'offensive' -- it's an exaggerated satire of Leeroy, playing up all of the supposed racial stereotypes and adding in more for the fun of it. It, in and of itself, has absolutely no bearing on the actual footage in question.

Never mind that everyone's complaint about fried chicken is ... well let's call it meta-knowledge. It wasn't until post meme coverage that Ben said anything about fried chicken. So we've moved on from the backwards insinuation that only black people eat fried chicken, now it's just chicken in general?

Is somebody creating a satirical video going to be called racist because he mentions chicken? 'Cause that's where we seen to be:

1) Character "sounds" black.
2) Character says he has chicken.

Damn. Pretty thin evidence of racism. As for the earlier mentioned "he looks black in the video" thing -- unless someone has magic eyes (or biased, perhaps) or a MUCH better resolution vid than I've ever seen, I just don't see it. At all. Although, feel free to enlighten me.

Tokiko Mima
2007-03-12, 10:30 AM
Kettle, meet Pot.

Sure, that picture you linked is 'offensive' -- it's an exaggerated satire of Leeroy, playing up all of the supposed racial stereotypes and adding in more for the fun of it. It, in and of itself, has absolutely no bearing on the actual footage in question.

Never mind that everyone's complaint about fried chicken is ... well let's call it meta-knowledge. It wasn't until post meme coverage that Ben said anything about fried chicken. So we've moved on from the backwards insinuation that only black people eat fried chicken, now it's just chicken in general?

Is somebody creating a satirical video going to be called racist because he mentions chicken? 'Cause that's where we seen to be:

1) Character "sounds" black.
2) Character says he has chicken.

Damn. Pretty thin evidence of racism. As for the earlier mentioned "he looks black in the video" thing -- unless someone has magic eyes (or biased, perhaps) or a MUCH better resolution vid than I've ever seen, I just don't see it. At all. Although, feel free to enlighten me.

Again, I'm sure Ben Schulz and PALS FOR LIFE are not racist. They didn't make the video to offend anyone. I would not characterize the video itself as being racist, though you would be blind to insist that racist overtones do not exist in the overall Leeroy phenomenon.

The picture I posted was literally instrumental to popularizing the Internet meme. It's still on the ytmnd.com boards relating to Leeroy, and was created very shortly after he became popular. So I disagree that it has nothing to do with Leeroy's popularity. In my mind it represents Leeroy as much as the video itself.

And again, I'm not saying that "if you like Leeroy, you're racist." I'm saying I find the Leeroy phenomenon tasteless and crude because the racist overtones are a little too obvious to me. If you love and can't get enough Leeroy references, well... more power to you. I just won't be enjoying them with you, K?

Maurog
2007-03-12, 10:47 AM
There are no racist overtones. I think if you see any racist overtones in the original issue, you are racist. As for the pictures and other followups, they grow on any internet meme like lichen and vary in content.

For example, the famous Zidane headbutt incident triggered a barrage of edited videos, one of them with him as a cannibal, and another involving the Pope. So, shall we now condemn the meme and Zidane himself on the grounds of being related to cannibalism and religious controversy? And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Stop being silly, people.

ObadiahtheSlim
2007-03-12, 10:58 AM
You don't even know if the chicken was fried or not. All you know is that Leeroy was AFK when the strat was being discussed because he was reheating some chicken. All he said was "at least i got chicken." For all you know Leeroy was an Italian reheating his chicken parmesan.

ObadiahtheSlim
2007-03-12, 11:18 AM
Also for those of you who refuse to believe that the whole thing was staged, I give you proof (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Laughing+Skull&n=Leeroy)that Leeroy and his guild <PALS FOR LIFE> has downed C'Thun. Note the main hand weapon. Very rare drop of C'Thun that is still one of the best healer maces around.

Note this proof (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Laughing+Skull&n=Leeroy) may change if Leeroy gets a new weapon.

Tokiko Mima
2007-03-12, 11:19 AM
I directly said there is nothing racist about the original video or it's creators, which is what I assume you mean by 'issue.'

But humor me, since you're throwing around the 'if you believe there is something racist about Leeroy Jenkins, you are therefore racist yourself' card. What would a person who doesn't like Leeroy's video have to do with discriminating people by race? How does not liking an Internet meme based on a percieved racial slant automatically qualify you as a bigot? I thought that racism was based on passing judgement on other people without a full examination of their character, not their freedom to choose to like or dislike something.

As far as your example, if the only reason Zidane was popularized was because of the cannibal and Pope viral videos, then yes. But the Zidane headbutt was famous for many other reasons.

Azrael
2007-03-12, 12:16 PM
But humor me, since you're throwing around the 'if you believe there is something racist about Leeroy Jenkins, you are therefore racist yourself' card. What would a person who doesn't like Leeroy's video have to do with discriminating people by race? How does not liking an Internet meme based on a percieved racial slant automatically qualify you as a bigot? I thought that racism was based on passing judgement on other people without a full examination of their character, not their freedom to choose to like or dislike something.

Two things:

1) No one else is equating dislike with racism. You've been arguing that it is racist, that argument is being countered. No one really cares if you like it or dislike it based on racism or any other reason. No one has said anything even close to "if you don't like it, you're discriminating".

2) What has been said, and has some merit, is that frequently the things cited as examples of racism in this video are not racist in and of themselves -- but that, in believing that these elements are racist, the individual is themselves showing signs of broad, racial based stereotypes (here on referred to as 'racisim').

The strongest one of these is the voice. "He sounds black." Wow. That really *is* racist -- it is assuming that people of African decent all sound alike.

Then people take that tidbit and add in the presence of "chicken" -- and jump to a pre-established racial stereotype and apply it to a new situation where it is not yet been evoked in true form. That is *also* on the border line, IMO. Knowing the stereotype exists is not racist, but what about searching for circumstances to apply it?

As for that picture you've posted: I've never seen it before. I've known about Leeroy for a looooong time and I've never seen it before. Until you posted it. So who is the one perpetuating a racial stereotype? People discussing the video? No. Just look at the response -- most people have been incredulous about the fact that any racial bias has been attributed to it.

But what about posting a horribly satirical, racially insensitive picture that only tangentially relates to the video at hand? Certainly that picture is racist, and yes that picture could taint a discussion of the Leeroy video. But that picture was created by an unknown 3rd party and has no relevance towards the initial article.


Also for those of you who refuse to believe that the whole thing was staged...

Proof? You mean proof like the creator very publicly admitting that it was staged? In all honesty, I doubt anyone who is even the very least familiar with the meme, or with WoW, believes it to be real.

Vorais
2007-03-12, 01:04 PM
Wait, wait... lemme get this straight.

You just necroposted an almost 3 week-since-last-post thread on which I suggested that the whole Leeroy Jenkins thing was a little bit in poor taste, in order to accuse 'people like me' of being an ignorant racist?
...
In the future, please familiarize yourself with the board rules. They are found here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=47&a=1)

You mean this one here?
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Bringing a thread back from ďthe dead.Ē If a thread has fallen to page three and hasnít been posted in for a month and a half, donít post in it. Start a new topic if you want to discuss the subject.

If you will read it you will see that I didn't break that or any of the other rules that I am aware of. As far as posting it last night, I just returned from a several week trip and was catching up on the forum stuff. I have been likely been here longer than you have as I have been visiting this site and reading the fourms in their various incarnations since OotS #2 (early 2003); although I usually never post. Your comments however this time irked me. Just because I choose not to usually post does not mean that I am new to these boards. Another assumption you made. I also wanted to clear a couple items up for the others that were just taking your word that it was racist.

Tokiko Mima
2007-03-12, 02:10 PM
Two things:

1) No one else is equating dislike with racism. You've been arguing that it is racist, that argument is being countered. No one really cares if you like it or dislike it based on racism or any other reason. No one has said anything even close to "if you don't like it, you're discriminating".

No I haven't! Seriously, I've said several times that the video itself isn't racist. In my last response to you that was the first thing I said. Please reread if you have any doubts.

As far as blanket "you are a racist" statement, maybe not you personally Azreal, but I have been told exactly that at least twice on this page of this thread.


I think if you see any racist overtones in the original issue, you are racist.

people like you are usually either very racist yourself or have no idea what racism is.

See? 'If you disagree with me/don't like Leeroy, you're a racist.'


2) What has been said, and has some merit, is that frequently the things cited as examples of racism in this video are not racist in and of themselves -- but that, in believing that these elements are racist, the individual is themselves showing signs of broad, racial based stereotypes (here on referred to as 'racisim').

The strongest one of these is the voice. "He sounds black." Wow. That really *is* racist -- it is assuming that people of African decent all sound alike.

I think you're on the wrong track here. Men and women's voices sound different, but to point that out by your rationale would be sexist. Some things are measurable physical differences, that while they are not inclusive of the entire set, are factors generally pointing to a specific group.

I can also add that calling African Americans 'black' which you have done, falls under the same catagory of assuming a difference, or umm.. 'racisim.' There's a veiled assumption that all black people are black colored, which technically, they aren't. Isn't that also wrong?


Then people take that tidbit and add in the presence of "chicken" -- and jump to a pre-established racial stereotype and apply it to a new situation where it is not yet been evoked in true form. That is *also* on the border line, IMO. Knowing the stereotype exists is not racist, but what about searching for circumstances to apply it?

Applying a stereotype is indeed indicative of prejudice, not necessarily racism. Semantics, I know but I think you need to develop this thought a bit more. I think what you're grasping at is whether it's bad to know of a stereotype, or to accept the stereotype. I think as long as you don't apply the stereotype, you're ok. We don't punish thought-crime (not yet anyway!) As much as I may dislike what you think, it's only actions that can be crimes.

Or, on second thought, are you arguing that trying to find an interpretation can itself be racist? That we shouldn't look for racism at all and that if you see it, that mean you are racist? That's kinda a circular argument, and I'm not sure that's what you meant.


As for that picture you've posted: I've never seen it before. I've known about Leeroy for a looooong time and I've never seen it before. Until you posted it. So who is the one perpetuating a racial stereotype? People discussing the video? No. Just look at the response -- most people have been incredulous about the fact that any racial bias has been attributed to it.

If they can look at the photo and realize that Leeroy would not have spread if it had not existed and still insist that the spector of racism is not present, well, then we'll have to agree to disagree I suppose. The amount of people that believe you does not indicate the truth of an arguement which is argumentum ad populum, I believe. I've posted my reasons already.


But what about posting a horribly satirical, racially insensitive picture that only tangentially relates to the video at hand? Certainly that picture is racist, and yes that picture could taint a discussion of the Leeroy video. But that picture was created by an unknown 3rd party and has no relevance towards the initial article.

But with relevance to the Internet meme, my case in point. The video itself doesn't have racist overtones, but when it went on the 'Net and became a meme it collected them and has had them ever since. That's why I choose not to like Leeroy, a free choice which I presented when asked why I thought Leeroy was slightly racist.

Maurog
2007-03-12, 03:14 PM
There are no racist overtones. I think if you see any racist overtones in the original issue, you are racist.

See? 'If you disagree with me/don't like Leeroy, you're a racist.'
Excuse me, did you just cut a very general statement out of my post, targeted it at yourself despite it having no target, then twisted it around giving it a meaning it never had and tried to use it as a weapon against someone else?

What a horrible thing to do.

I guess I'll have to explain my previous post. Word by word. Using small ones.
What I meant is, the original story of Leeroy Jenkings and the original video both have nothing to do with racism in any way. It's a story about gamers, for gamers, by gamers. Which, by the way, are about the most tolerant community in the world. Bringing race into the picture requires major effort on the part of the bringer, and they have to bring the "issues" themselves, since there aren't any in the story. Therefore, any racism you see is your own, brought along like a luggage on little sqeaky wheels.

That's what I meant, and I'm sorry if it wasn't clear enough for the terminally ss..ssensitive people on this board. You have the right to dislike the Leeroy story, and the right to voice it. Just don't accuse it of being racist.

Oh, and please don't quote me unless you reply to me. I'm not comfortable with that.

Azrael
2007-03-12, 03:36 PM
No I haven't! Seriously, I've said several times that the video itself isn't racist.

That's why I choose not to like Leeroy, a free choice which I presented when asked why I thought Leeroy was slightly racist.Two lines from the same post. Is he, or isn't he? Your point is that the video is not, but the 3rd party crap surrounding it -- i.e. that lovely picture -- is racist. So ... Leeroy himself isn't racist. Ok, good. We agree.

(This whole thing all could stop right here -- everyone that has made argument that the Leeroy Jenkins video is not racist has, thus far, been addressing only the video. And I guess we all agree now.)

As for your claim that the popularity/awareness of the meme wouldn't have spread without that picture (or any other stereotypical junk): that is an unsubstantiated conjecture that you simply cannot reasonably hope to defend. Is that your opinion? Yes. Ok. But I offer myself -- and, again other posters here -- who have not seen that racist addendum as counter evidence. We know the meme exists but were *unaware* of the offensive side show.

And just for giggles: I never arguing that the majority is correct because they're the majority, although thanks for citing debate terminology. I did claim that the majority was not perpetuating the racial stereotype. My evidence was that they were unaware of the blatantly racist addendum.

Video: Not racist
Other junk: Racist.

Now, can you dislike the whole thing because some people are using it, beyond it's original purpose or meaning, to perpetuate racial stereotypes? Sure, enjoy yourself. Just realize where the racist line is -- beyond the original.


I can also add that calling African Americans 'black' which you have done, falls under the same catagory of assuming a difference, or umm.. 'racisim.' And that would be ... ad hominem, right? Attack the poster, not their point. I certainly never claimed to be PC. Nor does my viewpoint in this matter hinge on an assumption of neutrality.

Tokiko Mima
2007-03-12, 04:26 PM
Excuse me, did you just cut a very general statement out of my post, targeted it at yourself despite it having no target, then twisted it around giving it a meaning it never had and tried to use it as a weapon against someone else?

What a horrible thing to do.

I guess I'll have to explain my previous post. Word by word. Using small ones.
What I meant is, the original story of Leeroy Jenkings and the original video both have nothing to do with racism in any way. It's a story about gamers, for gamers, by gamers. Which, by the way, are about the most tolerant community in the world. Bringing race into the picture requires major effort on the part of the bringer, and they have to bring the "issues" themselves, since there aren't any in the story. Therefore, any racism you see is your own, brought along like a luggage on little sqeaky wheels.

That's what I meant, and I'm sorry if it wasn't clear enough for the terminally ss..ssensitive people on this board. You have the right to dislike the Leeroy story, and the right to voice it. Just don't accuse it of being racist.

Oh, and please don't quote me unless you reply to me. I'm not comfortable with that.

I actually did. There was an entire post directed at your comments. You can click the link if you want to read it.


I directly said there ... many other reasons.

I'm sorry if you took offense at pulling what I felt was the crux of your argument out seperately. Your post consisted of a three sentence argument, followed by an example. When Azreal asked for an example of a statement he had not seen made, yours was conveniently at hand and in mind. I didn't want to put you on the spot, so that is why my quote did not cite your name. As far as twisting it, I believe I gleaned exactly your intent.

You began your post by citing your belief that there were no racist overtones. Fair enough, and you're entitled to your own opinions. I disagree.

Next you stated that anyone that disagrees with you and therefore sees racist overtones, is a racist. This is the statement that I pulled out, and my intent was to capture your meaning precisely. You may have meant 'carrying racist baggage with them,' but the words you used, directed at me (the person that disagrees) were exactly "you are a racist."

The third statement you made was a dismissal that anything that happened between the time the video was created and now could have any symbolic effect on the Internet meme as a whole. Not to invoke Godwin's law, but the history of the swashtika comes to mind. Though an innocent symbol pre-Third Reich, it has now become hopelessly entangled as a symbol of hatred and intolerance. Sometimes, what happens to ideas/concepts/memes in the flow of time changes them for the better or the worse. But believe what you want to believe, it is after all a free country.


(This whole thing all could stop right here -- everyone that has made argument that the Leeroy Jenkins video is not racist has, thus far, been addressing only the video. And I guess we all agree now.)

Agreed, at this point the discuss can only go downwards until the Moderators hit the thread. I've learned my lesson and next time I'll try to make it clear that I consider the phenomenon itself to be racist, not the source material.


And that would be ... ad hominem, right? Attack the poster, not their point. I certainly never claimed to be PC. Nor does my viewpoint in this matter hinge on an assumption of neutrality.

Hardly. In the context of the post, I was pointing out the flawed assumption that grouping people together for any reason is bigotry. It's not bigotry to notice black people usually have a particular skin color, or that they usually sound differently from people with ancestry in Southeast Asia, for example. To assume they are all stupid, lazy, eat fried chicken, or get their friends killed in WoW, THAT is bigotry and racism.

Unless you mean my intentional mispelling of a word you put in quotes. That was my attempt at black humor. :smalltongue: Well, now you know why I'm on a message board and not on tour with Chris Rock or something. :smallbiggrin:

Maurog
2007-03-12, 05:25 PM
The third statement you made was a dismissal that anything that happened between the time the video was created and now could have any symbolic effect on the Internet meme as a whole.No, it's not a dismissal, but a refusal to let the lichen stick to the meme as to make it into one inseparable thing. Note how in all my posts I referred to the original story and video. Saying you don't like the story itself because of some forced racial issues brought in by a third party is like saying you don't watch Disney movies anymore ever since you accidentally visited an adult-oriented site with Disney-themed content.

Azrael
2007-03-12, 08:27 PM
Damn that Sinderella! She's broken my inner child!