Aasimar

[Angelalex242]

Dunno why these wacky game designers included Tieflings, but not Aasimar...

But I'm a bit peeved about it.

Considering Tieflings as seen in the books available, how would you translate Aasimar into Next?

+1 Str and Cha, I'm sure (want to optimize the race for Paladins), and other stuff.

Darkvision to 60'

Celestial resistance: Resistance to electricity (like an Archon!)

Aura of Menace: When you are at full HP, all attacks against you are at disadvantage, and you have advantage on all saves.

You speak and read Common and Celestial

[captpike]

were it me I would have 15-20 races in the PHB. they are easy to make, take almost no page space and are very helpful to have if your running a non-standard campaign.

[eastmabl]

were it me I would have 15-20 races in the PHB. they are easy to make, take almost no page space and are very helpful to have if your running a non-standard campaign.

More books? I don't mean to sound snide, but I'm not going to begrudge a book publisher for not giving me something non-standard in the first go. They need to keep selling books.

[Kurald Galain]

Dunno why these wacky game designers included Tieflings, but not Aasimar...
Because they like the works of Robert A. Tieflein better than those of Isaac Asimar :smallcool:

[captpike]

More books? I don't mean to sound snide, but I'm not going to begrudge a book publisher for not giving me something non-standard in the first go. They need to keep selling books.

for most stuff I don't mind, classes feats and whatnot take time to make right and can take alot of page space.

but races are easy to make, and take almost no space to print. no reason you can't have like 15 in the first PHB

[da_chicken]

Dunno why these wacky game designers included Tieflings, but not Aasimar...

Tieflings are always more popular than Aasimar. I think it's partially due to the fact that "Aasimar" sounds horribly stupid when you say it out loud, and partially due to the fact that a tainted character is more fun to play than a virtuous one for many.


But I'm a bit peeved about it.

Considering Tieflings as seen in the books available, how would you translate Aasimar into Next?

+1 Str and Cha, I'm sure (want to optimize the race for Paladins), and other stuff.

Darkvision to 60'

Celestial resistance: Resistance to electricity (like an Archon!)

Aura of Menace: When you are at full HP, all attacks against you are at disadvantage, and you have advantage on all saves.

You speak and read Common and Celestial

I would do the same except:

Ability Scores: I would give them +1 Wis and +1 Cha. That's what they always get.

Vision: I would give them Low-Light Vision, matching Tiefling. Darkvision seems to be mostly on creatures that live underground.

Instead of Aura of Menace, I would give them the light cantrip, with Wis the ability for it (not that that matters). Again, this is kind of their iconic ability.

I'd also probably list them as "Deva" and have the first line start "Also known as Aasimar...." because holy cripes does the word "Aasimar" need to die. I'd rather they brought back tanar'ri, baatezu, and yugoloth distinctions.

[Angelalex242]

There's no reason to give them light when Tieflings have Infernal Wrath.

I gave them electricity resistance to match the fire resistance Tieflings got.

On stats:Tieflings now have +1 Int, +1 Cha.

So I can change Aasimar if I want to.

Though I suppose they should have the same lowlight Tieflings do.

[da_chicken]

There's no reason to give them light when Tieflings have Infernal Wrath.

I gave them electricity resistance to match the fire resistance Tieflings got.

On stats:Tieflings now have +1 Int, +1 Cha.

So I can change Aasimar if I want to.

Of course you can. You said, "Considering Tieflings as seen in the books available, how would you translate Aasimar into Next?" so I answered that. There's nothing wrong with your version. I was just giving my opinion on how I'd convert them.

[RustyArmor]

Dunno why these wacky game designers included Tieflings, but not Aasimar...

Just simple matter of the "Half demon" or "Half dragon" thing being so common place that they just pretty much had to add them as base class, I know all the times I played d&d these are asked to be played more then anything else. The half animal thing being close as well so I'm surprise they don't have some animal-kin type thing where you can pick an animal/human hybrid. Aasimar are a far far far distant choice it seems.

[Angelalex242]

Dunno why.

Aasimar back in 3.5 weren't just for Paladins. They also did great Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers, and Bards. The latter 4 could do great things with a 20 in their casting stat.

[INDYSTAR188]

Do any other races provide a Disadvantage type power that OP has listed in his iteration of the Aasimar?

Are there races that have a level adjustment (Drow, Tieflings, Aasimar, etc)?

[da_chicken]

Do any other races provide a Disadvantage type power that OP has listed in his iteration of the Aasimar?

No, although many have an advantage power on their own saves (dwarves vs poison, elves vs charm, halflings vs fear).


Are there races that have a level adjustment (Drow, Tieflings, Aasimar, etc)?

No, and I don't think there will be. It's a clunky mechanic that I don't think anybody really has been happy with.

[INDYSTAR188]

No, although many have an advantage power on their own saves (dwarves vs poison, elves vs charm, halflings vs fear).

No, and I don't think there will be. It's a clunky mechanic that I don't think anybody really has been happy with.

Fair enough, I never liked that either. I think, personally, the OP's version is reasonable. I'm not sure if a cantrip is comparable to other races features. It is cool to have an at-will ability though.

[StabbityRabbit]

I thought the designers were trying to include every race and class that have appeared in any core book of D&D. Since Tieflings appeared in 4e PHB they were in, while the Aasimar have never appeared in a core book and thus aren't appearing.

That's what I thought was going on anyway. I could be wrong though.

[Fwiffo86]

Personally, I have viewed less races works better. To many races, and I ask the question.... where are all these people? But then, my worlds tend to distrust magic users. And demon halfbreeds would have been drowned at birth by the resident attending church, as a creature of evil. Of course, this is all just me thinking how the standard farmer reacts to things like demons, people who can summon fire with a wave of a hand, etc.

[captpike]

Personally, I have viewed less races works better. To many races, and I ask the question.... where are all these people? But then, my worlds tend to distrust magic users. And demon halfbreeds would have been drowned at birth by the resident attending church, as a creature of evil. Of course, this is all just me thinking how the standard farmer reacts to things like demons, people who can summon fire with a wave of a hand, etc.

the reason to have alot of them is so that even if you only need 5 and there are 20 you know you can have the 5 you need.

after all its not like races take much time or page space to make

[INDYSTAR188]

Personally, I have viewed less races works better. To many races, and I ask the question.... where are all these people? But then, my worlds tend to distrust magic users. And demon halfbreeds would have been drowned at birth by the resident attending church, as a creature of evil. Of course, this is all just me thinking how the standard farmer reacts to things like demons, people who can summon fire with a wave of a hand, etc.

I agree with you but I think it's nice to have all the options and pick and choose what you think makes sense in your world. I am putting together a world where Tieflings are the rulers of a slave empire (loosely based off of the Ottoman Empire) and their main rivals are a Dragonborn Empire (based on ancient Rome). I know I will probably not have either Gnomes or Halflings (one of them, not sure which yet) and instead of Elves there will only be Half-Elves (which I'll fluff the creation story for).

[da_chicken]

Personally, I have viewed less races works better. To many races, and I ask the question.... where are all these people? But then, my worlds tend to distrust magic users. And demon halfbreeds would have been drowned at birth by the resident attending church, as a creature of evil. Of course, this is all just me thinking how the standard farmer reacts to things like demons, people who can summon fire with a wave of a hand, etc.

I agree. I like to run Greyhawk and other more xenophobic campaigns, where anything as exotic as a Half-Orc is likely to receive unfriendly NPC reactions, even by Humans. A Drow or Tiefling would likely be kill-on-sight, and an Aasimar would likely terrify anyone without training in Religion or Arcana.

The thing is, it's easier for a DM to say, "you can do this, too," instead of, "no, you can't do that." It's easier to give than it is to take away. Everybody loves a gift, and nobody likes a restriction.

[captpike]

The thing is, it's easier for a DM to say, "you can do this, too," instead of, "no, you can't do that." It's easier to give than it is to take away. Everybody loves a gift, and nobody likes a restriction.

not really, to say "you can only be races A,B,C or maybe D if you have a good reason" means you have come up with nothing new, you dont have to make new race powers, decide what stats work, make new backgrounds ect.

[Angelalex242]

Well, it depends on where you are, for the Aasimar.

See, the thing about Aasimar is, it's in your blood. So anyone who knows your parents already got the 'Great Grandpa loved an Astral Deva, and we've all had celestial blood ever since' memo. Even in towns where they don't know you, it's easy enough for the local priest to verify what you are.

I think, once the average peasant figures out you have angelic blood, they'll treat you about like they'd treat an angel, in the 'fix all our problems for us!' kind of way. If you happen to be Aasimar Paladin or Cleric, up that by several orders of magnitude since you're wearing a holy symbol of your faith besides.

The reason real Celestials like staying behind the scenes is because mortals get dependent on them and their power. Oh so very easily. Aasimar must be careful to make sure the mortals don't get unrealistic expectations of what they can do.

[T.G. Oskar]

I also find it odd (I'd dare say insulting and prejudiced) that Drow and Tieflings get top billing while a race that's meant to be the epitome of goodness is left relegated to oblivion.

I recall long ago that there was a column in the D&D site that talked about "traction (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20050909a)" (actually, two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060106a)), or how some choices were popular or necessary while others never caught on. One of the things they mentioned was famous monsters that had "traction", such as the githyanki (because they made the cover for the Fiend Folio), the yuan-ti (because they appeared in a famous module), and the drow (again, because they appeared in a famous module). The Basic D&D races have "traction" because they're famous due to Lord of the Rings; the 5e PHB remaining races have traction for other reasons. For example: the Half-Elf and Half-Orc are old standards of the PHB, the Dragonborn has "traction" because it was pushed real hard by 4e and also because it allows a player to play a dragon and the Tiefling...well, the Tiefling was also pushed quite a bit by the 4e devs because it was a "cool" race that allowed you to play the "antihero".

I want to push a bit the case of the Tiefling to state my point. The Tiefling got traction because the developers thought it was popular enough, but it really got traction because it made the cover of the 1st PHB for 4th Edition. Had they given that kind of push to the Aasimar/Deva, they could have made it popular, but it didn't.

Now, there is a counterpoint to it: the Tieflings have traction because they represent "Dark is not Evil", but Aasimar aren't as popular because everybody and their mother think they're Always Good race, and there's no module where the BBEG is an evil Aasimar, nor there is a writer that has done a memorable good (or evil) Aasimar character, nor there is a module that relies mostly on Aasimar. The only place where they're mostly a "thing" is in the Forgotten Realms, and even then ONLY on Mulhorand, pretty much. So...they're not as popular because Wizards of the Coast hasn't deemed to make them popular. In fact, if they have any traction, it's because of two things: because they're the perfect race for a Paladin (the "always good class", though 4e and 5e/Next intend to challenge that stereotype) and because they're the good counterparts to the Tieflings, so they ride on the latter's "traction".

Until there's a module that proudly and insistently presents Aasimar, or there's a famous Aasimar character in a book that dwarfs the popularity of Drizzt or Elminster, they'll be relegated to nothingness. I mean, they already essentially didn't exist in 4th Edition, so what makes them capable of existing in 5th?

And so...why do I find it insulting and prejudiced? Well...perhaps it was the wrong choice of words, but if you're supposed to be the hero, and the Iron Age of comics where gritty anti-heroes were the norm has mostly passed to a different kind of hero (including a revival of the old-school heroic character), having a race that represents the archetypal "rebel with fiendish heritage" but disdaining the "goody two-shoes" race is what I find insulting? The prejudice? Well, perhaps it's because, deep down, most people don't want to have the race that perfectly exemplifies the preachy type of people, and most people automatically associate Aasimar with "good" so it eventually associates it with the preachy, hardline form of good rather than the selfless yet awe-inspiring heroic form of Good.

In short: Wizards hasn't made Aasimar a favor. It's time they do.

[Angelalex242]

To put it in a more obvious point of view:

Tieflings are Batman
Aasimar are Superman

Who makes more money at the box office? Who makes more money for wizards of the coast?

The answer is clear, isn't it?

[Kurald Galain]

Tieflings are Batman
Aasimar are Superman

So I suppose that Warforged are Ironman and Drow are Spiderman?

[Angelalex242]

Considering their box office performance, that's probably not too far wrong.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

So I suppose that Warforged are Ironman and Drow are Spiderman?

I know what I must do now... Middle aged type setting (hell Greyhawk will work) where the heroes of the world are not trusted and seen as aliens.

But you forgot one critical superhero as a race... Water-Orc, Aquaman!

How could you forget this waterbender great hero???


:smalltongue:

[da_chicken]

not really, to say "you can only be races A,B,C or maybe D if you have a good reason" means you have come up with nothing new, you dont have to make new race powers, decide what stats work, make new backgrounds ect.

Actually, I would use non-standard races from campaign settings or the Monster Manual. I don't want to make my own races. I just don't want players to assume they can run a Warforged or a Dragonscale or a Fire Genasi because they're at the front of the PHB when I'm going to be running Middle Earth.

[captpike]

Actually, I would use non-standard races from campaign settings or the Monster Manual. I don't want to make my own races. I just don't want players to assume they can run a Warforged or a Dragonscale or a Fire Genasi because they're at the front of the PHB when I'm going to be running Middle Earth.

personal the first and most common limitations I have found is races. if it was classes that would be different, but I would think most players would not be upset there are no warforged in your human only world.

the problem is that most players wont have Monster Manual's, and many wont have campaign setting books.

the only book you can know your players have is the PHB

[da_chicken]

personal the first and most common limitations I have found is races. if it was classes that would be different, but I would think most players would not be upset there are no warforged in your human only world.

the problem is that most players wont have Monster Manual's, and many wont have campaign setting books.

the only book you can know your players have is the PHB

We always make characters together. Book availability for races isn't a problem for us.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Actually, I would use non-standard races from campaign settings or the Monster Manual. I don't want to make my own races. I just don't want players to assume they can run a Warforged or a Dragonscale or a Fire Genasi because they're at the front of the PHB when I'm going to be running Middle Earth.

As a fellow DM I must say... Remember that the game isn't about your story. If a player wants to play a fire Genasai during a "middle earth" setting then you should consider it. D&D is a fantasy game where a DM and Players effect the story, not just one of the groups.

There are plenty of reasons a warforged is running around with a hobbit Halfling, but being to strict can cause unneeded limitation upon a fantasy setting.

I never understand how people think that race selection will destroy their plot. Just fluff it into the world, let PCs determine some aspect of the game they will be in for however long.

[Kurald Galain]

I never understand how people think that race selection will destroy their plot. Just fluff it into the world, let PCs determine some aspect of the game they will be in for however long.
Because if you're playing in a premade world that doesn't have Race X, declaring that one player character is the only member of that race (or the only member you'll ever meet, because he's from some unspecified remote location or something) gets old fast, especially if multiple players want a "special snowflake" like this.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Because if you're playing in a premade world that doesn't have Race X, declaring that one player character is the only member of that race (or the only member you'll ever meet, because he's from some unspecified remote location or something) gets old fast, especially if multiple players want a "special snowflake" like this.

The same can be said for using races of that setting, it gets old when all you play is X race.

It doesn't have to be a snowflake PC, but adding variety or letting the players have a choice other than stock keeps things interesting.

Or do we need to have generic human Fighter number 342?

[Kurald Galain]

The same can be said for using races of that setting, it gets old when all you play is X race.

Most people I know distinguish their character through character traits, not through race.

[Sartharina]

I'm with Kurald on this.

Worldbuilding is usually the domain of the DM in D&D. The players drive the story of their characters only insofar that they decide how their characters act and react to the world around them, and where their characters come from within the constraints of the world built by the DM. Other games give players more authorative power. Those games aren't D&D.

That said, I'm with Shakespeare and Mercutio - Middle Earth really needs catgirls. (http://irregularwebcomic.net/777.html)

[Dr.Starky]

Not everyone picks "weird" races because they want to be a snowflake. Some people just have tastes that gravitate beyond playing humanoids of various heights and ear-pointyness.

I don't see what's so bad about D&D catering to less Tokienesque-options for fantasy races by default.

[Lokiare]

"Special Snowflake" is a kind of fun though, so you don't want to cut that out of the game.

[pwykersotz]

Yeah, I enjoy my Half Air-Elemental Halfling, my Goliath Sorcerer, my Half-Minotaur, and my Phrenic Human. Even if the DM lets you play them when the campaign doesn't support them as well though, you have to not be THAT player. The one who wants to be special, and who wants ALL the NPC's and PC's to recognize that specialness in a favorable way (Fear, respect, etc).

But the DM needs to have immersion too, and fun. Sometimes a player being overly...creative can just translate into a lot more effort for no gain at all. If you're trying to have fun in middle earth and suddenly optimus prime starts walking around, it can be disheartening.

[Kurald Galain]

Yeah, I enjoy my Half Air-Elemental Halfling, my Goliath Sorcerer, my Half-Minotaur, and my Phrenic Human. Even if the DM lets you play them when the campaign doesn't support them as well though, you have to not be THAT player. The one who wants to be special, and who wants ALL the NPC's and PC's to recognize that specialness in a favorable way (Fear, respect, etc).

But the DM needs to have immersion too, and fun. Sometimes a player being overly...creative can just translate into a lot more effort for no gain at all. If you're trying to have fun in middle earth and suddenly optimus prime starts walking around, it can be disheartening.

Yes.

Generally speaking I'm sympathetic to exotic races if either (1) the world already has a metric ton of races, e.g. the Forgotten Realms; or (2) the player does it for roleplaying reasons rather than mechanical bonuses, and has the backstory to go with it; or (3) we're still the phase of creating the world, and instead of using the standard human/elf/orc/dwarf relationships we're looking into e.g. human/lizardmen/catfolk/githyanki as the most prominent species.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Most people I know distinguish their character through character traits, not through race.

Then why are you basing your decision to not allow a race on the same principal? No X race just because it is that race?

Why not as a DM, I don't know... Use some effort and make it work so that the player can play whatever race they want since their character is distinguished by their class traits and not race. You are making a decision based on the PC's Race instead of the PC itself.

I think we can all agree that the DM should put the most effort into a game. If including a race, or one PC as a race, is to much effort then I'm not sure if I have the same definition of effort as others.

[Angelalex242]

My point, when I created this thread, is that there's no reason on Faerun or Greyhawk why a campaign that allows Tieflings would disallow Aasimar.

If outsiders can breed with humans in the first place, it's definitely not going to be limited to just evil outsiders doing so. Indeed, it's safer for the human parent if they pick a good outsider.

A succubus might be fun, but you're not likely to survive the nightly activities. Unless you're Nale from Order of the Stick and are completely prepared for your succubus lover.

[Kurald Galain]

Then why are you basing your decision to not allow a race on the same principal? No X race just because it is that race?

Why not as a DM, I don't know... Use some effort and make it work so that the player can play whatever race they want since their character is distinguished by their class traits and not race. You are making a decision based on the PC's Race instead of the PC itself.

Well, that is a rather insulting way to put it.

The answer is, of course, that the backstory of my game world has a limited number of races which are well-developed, and this world building clashes with the idea that a player wants to play a robot or a flumph or a sentient dinosaur. The price of playing in most established worlds (including but not limited to my own, Tolkien's, or a dozen other fantasy writers I could name) is that only a limited number of races exist in that world, and I have no intention of disrupting worldbuilding and immersion just for the sake of a player who doesn't care about the world but wants his special snowflake.

(again, this does not apply in worlds that explicitly have dozens of races already, such as Planescape)

[captpike]

We always make characters together. Book availability for races isn't a problem for us.

sure that works for you, but that should not be an assumption of the system. the system should assume that players only have player books, and DMs have those and DM books.

[da_chicken]

No X race just because it is that race?

Yes.


Why not as a DM, I don't know... Use some effort and make it work so that the player can play whatever race they want since their character is distinguished by their class traits and not race. You are making a decision based on the PC's Race instead of the PC itself.

I think we can all agree that the DM should put the most effort into a game. If including a race, or one PC as a race, is to much effort then I'm not sure if I have the same definition of effort as others.

Effort has nothing to do with it.

If race is not suited to the setting, then the race does not exist as a player race. The same reason I wouldn't allow a Shadowrun Decker, a Star Wars SAGA Jedi Knight, or a Hyborean Barbarian in Forgotten Realms. Those characters belong in a different setting. I wouldn't allow a Wookie with a bowcaster in my Star Trek universe game because the race doesn't exist in the Federation -- The Star Wars into makes it very clear when and where Wookies are. I wouldn't allow C-3PO, either, because androids are essentially unique in the Federation.

Not every character fits every campaign. It's fantastic that you have a character concept that you're interested in playing. I'm sure you'll have fun playing it in an appropriate campaign. However, this one is not appropriate for that character. Stop giving me square pegs for my round hole campaign. There will be a square peg campaign later.

[INDYSTAR188]

Yes.



Effort has nothing to do with it.

If race is not suited to the setting, then the race does not exist as a player race. The same reason I wouldn't allow a Shadowrun Decker, a Star Wars SAGA Jedi Knight, or a Hyborean Barbarian in Forgotten Realms. Those characters belong in a different setting. I wouldn't allow a Wookie with a bowcaster in my Star Trek universe game because the race doesn't exist in the Federation -- The Star Wars into makes it very clear when and where Wookies are. I wouldn't allow C-3PO, either, because androids are essentially unique in the Federation.

Not every character fits every campaign. It's fantastic that you have a character concept that you're interested in playing. I'm sure you'll have fun playing it in an appropriate campaign. However, this one is not appropriate for that character. Stop giving me square pegs for my round hole campaign. There will be a square peg campaign later.

While I am on your and Kuralds camp on this issue I think you are taking the point your trying to make to far. I don't think Morbo is talking about players wanting to cross genres (SW race in the Forgotten Realms). I believe he is trying to say a player might say something more reasonable like, "Why can't I be a Bullywug in this game?" To which 'our' counterpoint seems to be, "Because there ARE NO Bullywugs in this world and even if there were they are not a viable option."

[da_chicken]

While I am on your and Kuralds camp on this issue I think you are taking the point your trying to make to far. I don't think Morbo is talking about players wanting to cross genres (SW race in the Forgotten Realms). I believe he is trying to say a player might say something more reasonable like, "Why can't I be a Bullywug in this game?" To which 'our' counterpoint seems to be, "Because there ARE NO Bullywugs in this world and even if there were they are not a viable option."

That's true. I was using extremes to illustrate the point.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Perhaps effort was going to far, I do apologize for that one.

However my point is that, would it really be so hard or screw things up so much if you allowed a player to play a race they really wanted to play (for whatever reason) in your game that was already set with specific races?

Why not just add in a bit of fluff that explains this race and don't make your world such a cookie cutter copy of another one you made or something someone else made? Perhaps make it a plot hook or perhaps never bring it up again?

Yeah, I'm not saying let's put a wookie (with all their fluff and weapons) into a D&D darksun game (though that could get interesting... You would have a shaved wookie running around a desert) but in a fantasy game that has all the pieces already there, why not allow a player to pick what they want?

Also one could totally fluff the bullywug as a player who once was a normal human... But got turned into a frog bullywug until their one true love kisses them they break the curse (which may never happen being a murdo hobo after all).

Now I want to play a bullywug damnit haha.

[Sartharina]

sure that works for you, but that should not be an assumption of the system. the system should assume that players only have player books, and DMs have those and DM books.

And the assumption of the game for players is Core Races Only. If the DM wishes to extend further race-playing privileges for the world he made, he can present those races as an option. Putting them into the Player's Handbook gives players a notion of entitlement to the race, which doesn't meet the baseline Core Experience D&D is trying to provide. A by-the-books D&D campaign has all playable races as viable races for player characters in the setting, and strongly tied into the assumed setting or metasetting (Which means Dragonborn are now a more significant player in the 5e Forgotten Realms)

[captpike]

And the assumption of the game for players is Core Races Only. If the DM wishes to extend further race-playing privileges for the world he made, he can present those races as an option. Putting them into the Player's Handbook gives players a notion of entitlement to the race, which doesn't meet the baseline Core Experience D&D is trying to provide. A by-the-books D&D campaign has all playable races as viable races for player characters in the setting, and strongly tied into the assumed setting or metasetting (Which means Dragonborn are now a more significant player in the 5e Forgotten Realms)

the books can't assume a certain setting, they might add some examples and default fluff and whatnot.
the job of the PHB is to promote options not to take everything away from the players that some DMs might not like. if you did that there would hardly be anything in the PHB.

its much less work to say "you cant play A,B or C" then to make up three new races because the PHB only has the bog standard ones.

[da_chicken]

Perhaps effort was going to far, I do apologize for that one.

However my point is that, would it really be so hard or screw things up so much if you allowed a player to play a race they really wanted to play (for whatever reason) in your game that was already set with specific races?

Why not just add in a bit of fluff that explains this race and don't make your world such a cookie cutter copy of another one you made or something someone else made? Perhaps make it a plot hook or perhaps never bring it up again?

Yeah, I'm not saying let's put a wookie (with all their fluff and weapons) into a D&D darksun game (though that could get interesting... You would have a shaved wookie running around a desert) but in a fantasy game that has all the pieces already there, why not allow a player to pick what they want?

Also one could totally fluff the bullywug as a player who once was a normal human... But got turned into a frog bullywug until their one true love kisses them they break the curse (which may never happen being a murdo hobo after all).

Now I want to play a bullywug damnit haha.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's JLA/Avengers, sometimes it's Archie Meets The Punisher (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ac/ArchiePunisher.jpg).

Often when I run a game I'll allow essentially anything the players want (we've banned templates universally, though), but it seems like invariably when I want to run a campaign with a specific setting in mind one of the players will ask for something that just doesn't work. Especially because we rotate DMs, and other DMs are even more liberal than I am, and they know this... it's kind of frustrating. "You want to play a full blood Orc in Greyhawk? You understand the best you can hope for is a drumhead trial prior to your summary execution?"

[INDYSTAR188]

I mentioned above (on page 1) that I am creating a campaign world for my NEXT campaign (assuming I can get the guys to play, they really enjoy 4E and we have almost all of the source material). I will hand out a background on the world ahead of time and if a player says, for example, "Indy I really want to play an elf" I would consider adding the race if they had a cool idea in mind. I want everyone to have fun but I don't want anything too crazy. I really like your example of using Bullywug as a curse type thing but then you have to basically remake the character once they get it lifted. That is a perfectly viable way to talk me into letting you play some random thing tho :smallsmile:.

[Sartharina]

the books can't assume a certain setting, they might add some examples and default fluff and whatnot.
the job of the PHB is to promote options not to take everything away from the players that some DMs might not like. if you did that there would hardly be anything in the PHB.

its much less work to say "you cant play A,B or C" then to make up three new races because the PHB only has the bog standard ones.Yes, they can, and they do. The books assume Forgotten Realms are the game's setting. They allow the game to be focuses, and so far, you're the one who has been arguing for the removal of options and systems in the game because "It might infringe on another's playstyle".

You can use the system to play in a different setting, yes, and it works for that. You can do the same thing with Dark Heresy or Ironclaw as well, but that doesn't stop them from assuming an already-established setting and making rules around those.

[captpike]

Yes, they can, and they do. The books assume Forgotten Realms are the game's setting. They allow the game to be focuses, and so far, you're the one who has been arguing for the removal of options and systems in the game because "It might infringe on another's playstyle".

You can use the system to play in a different setting, yes, and it works for that. You can do the same thing with Dark Heresy or Ironclaw as well, but that doesn't stop them from assuming an already-established setting and making rules around those.

how does having more then the baseline forgotten realm races hurt that? you only use the ones you want, I use the ones I want everyone wins.

yes if they never ever put out any other settings for 5e, and never mention any others in the PHB then you can make the argument, but I doubt they would do that.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I mentioned above (on page 1) that I am creating a campaign world for my NEXT campaign (assuming I can get the guys to play, they really enjoy 4E and we have almost all of the source material). I will hand out a background on the world ahead of time and if a player says, for example, "Indy I really want to play an elf" I would consider adding the race if they had a cool idea in mind. I want everyone to have fun but I don't want anything too crazy. I really like your example of using Bullywug as a curse type thing but then you have to basically remake the character once they get it lifted. That is a perfectly viable way to talk me into letting you play some random thing tho :smallsmile:.

Who says they ever get cured? Totally Shrek them when they kiss their true love :smalltongue:

(Or they never really want to find the cure, perhaps they have grown to accept what they are? Tons of options to keep from rebuilding a character :) )

My view on DMs is that they are the least important person at the table, the most crucial, but least important. Or perhaps the DM should view themselves as the least important.

From immersion to fun my players matter more than I do. Sure my fun is important but not as much as theirs. Yes there are limits to what is allowed. However those limits shouldn't be set on something as minor to the game world as race. If a player wants to play a race then I view it as my job (I'm talking official work here and not homebrew) to find a way to make it work because I know full well that every aspect of a character really makes up who they and is important to that one character.

Perhaps they meet prejudice or perhaps they meet wonder and excitement (Aasimars being angel like and all).But I should always be flexible with this, Gargil the Human Fighter is completely different from Gargil the Warforged Fighter.

If it was something like they wanted to be able to fly at low levels then that would be a problem due to balnce and being able to ignore parts of the game. But an option that boils down to fluff, that makes the player happy, well it seems like a silly thing to deny the player.

[Angelalex242]

We're a little off track, guys.

Under what circumstances would someone allow Tieflings but not Aasimar?

Particularly when Tieflings are likely to be drowned as babies while Aasimar get taken in by good aligned faiths as children of heaven?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

We're a little off track, guys.

Under what circumstances would someone allow Tieflings but not Aasimar?

Particularly when Tieflings are likely to be drowned as babies while Aasimar get taken in by good aligned faiths as children of heaven?

Welcome to Hell/Abyss type game where the party starts off already dead and in hell/abyss due to a clerical error or because they didn't have gods and must survive till they are strong enough to fight their way out?
The Aasimars didn't have that problem or died (again) upon being sent to that plane.

Edit: or I would have them all play Aasimars... Should be fun :D

[INDYSTAR188]

We're a little off track, guys.

Under what circumstances would someone allow Tieflings but not Aasimar?

Particularly when Tieflings are likely to be drowned as babies while Aasimar get taken in by good aligned faiths as children of heaven?

I don't know Angelalex, to be honest with you that is completely subjective to your individual location, setting, and diety involvement. I can imagine that a group of peasents who hear about or see a horned baby with red-brown skin being born throwing it down a well but I can just as easily imagine those same peasents throwing a baby with golden eyes, silver hair, and a thousand yard stare that would put a Gunnery Sergeant to shame down that same well.

I would want them both to be available races in the core setting. One reason I can think of to have one allowed and not another...

- I'm creating a campaign world where Tieflings control a vast slave empire. They rose to prominance by (you guessed it) making nefarious deals and interbreeding with evil outsiders. The PC's could of course be a single (or VERY rare) example of the good gods sending forth some champion to counter the empire.

In that example its not that I don't want Aasimar in my campaign at all, it's just that I'm treating Tieflings as by-products of some evil outsider influence and the good aligned outsiders are just more subtle and take less of a direct hand in things. Does that seem reasonable to you?

[da_chicken]

We're a little off track, guys.

Under what circumstances would someone allow Tieflings but not Aasimar?

Particularly when Tieflings are likely to be drowned as babies while Aasimar get taken in by good aligned faiths as children of heaven?

Any campaign where good-aligned outsiders are unwilling to consort with mortals in that fashion (possibly due to divine restrictions) but fiends have no such reservations.

A campaign world where Tieflings come from a particular evil-aligned nation where the race is bred as the emperor possesses an artifact which allows him to control anyone with demon blood.

Ravenloft. I've barred Paladins while running Ravenloft because it would cause the campaign to end as soon as the PCs came to the interest of the local Dread Lord. Aasimar would likely be a similar beacon.

[Angelalex242]

Well. Ravenloft is one of those things where Paladins by their nature shine like beacons, daring the Dark Lord to pick a fight with them. Paladins essentially rely on 'Sorting Algorithm of Evil' to get strong enough to actually take the Dark Lord on. Aasimar, like Paladins, may have the same Ripple effect, as I mentioned in a Ravenloft thread in 3.5, as it is noted the "Paladin's ripple is similar, but less powerful, then that of a Celestial." That describes Aasimar too. Similar, but less powerful then a Celestial.

Anyways, I think if the player wants to be a Paladin in Ravenloft, he's showing +5 holy cajones equal to and par with O Chul in the Order of the Stick. Personally, I respect that kind of courage that says, "Bring On the Powers of Hell. Me and my Holy Sword are waiting."

I've played a Paladin in Ravenloft before, and it was pretty awesome. The DM, to keep me alive, had the Dark Lords so amused by there being someone they can't frighten that they decided to throw underlings at him for their own amusement. Kind of a novelty type thing. The campaign ended when my Paladin and his companions slew a Dark Lord. As a reward for doing so, they escaped Ravenloft.

And in that particular campaign world...I'd think the Good Outsiders would WANT to have some of their own kin in the game, and in your Tieflings enslaved the world game, I'd want to be an Aasimar, stand tall, shake the Heavens, and dare the Tieflings to do something about it. That's how my Paladin types roll. Ya know.

"In a time long ago, the ancient tieflings were petty and cruel, and they plagued mankind with suffering. Only one man dared challenge their power. Me! I possessed a strength the world had never seen, surpassed only by the power of my heart! I battled the evil Queen Tiefling, the Queen of the Slave Empire. But wherever there was evil, wherever an innocent would suffer...there would be me!"

(Cookie to the first person who notes the reference.)

[Stray]

You clearly like your Aasimar and I'm not trying to take it away from you, just presenting another point of view. For some people story of an underdog overcoming hardships and prejudice is more compelling than story of an angelbaby born with silver spoon in their mouth and loved for their appearance and heritage and not actual deeds(slight exaggeration for emphasis, not universal for all aasimar, yaddy yaddy yadda). Also tieflings offer less savage alternative to half-orcs as an evil player race, while aasimar share a lot of similarities with high elves.

As for why there would be more tieflings than aasimar in a campaign world, here is a possible idea.
Lets assume that fiends and celestials rarely mate with mortals, both sides at a similiar rate.
Tieflings and half-fiends status as social outcasts leads them to band together, breeding mostly among their own community and reinforcing their fiendish traits. Aasimar's desirable traits mean that there is plenty of humans interested in mating with them, diluting the celestial blood until they are indistinguishable from humans. So each half-celestial has aasimar descendants for couple generations, but soon enough they loose the traces of their heritage, while half-fiends bring fresh batches of devil/demon/deamon blood into already existing tiefling population. This way aasimar numbers naturally dwindle and tiefling numbers grow like any other population.

Also celestials trying to breed a golden-eyed master race while advocating infanti/genocide of tieflings sounds a bit Evil and un-celestial-like? But hey, I prefer morally gray stories to clear Good vs Evil conflicts.

P.S. Your Hercules TV show reference is really easy to google...

[Sartharina]

We're a little off track, guys.

Under what circumstances would someone allow Tieflings but not Aasimar?

Particularly when Tieflings are likely to be drowned as babies while Aasimar get taken in by good aligned faiths as children of heaven?

Tieflings have a lot more to prove to the world than Aasimar, who are more likely to grow up to be socially well-adjusted.

[Millennium]

Tieflings have a lot more to prove to the world than Aasimar, who are more likely to grow up to be socially well-adjusted.
That's true to some degree, but it can cut both ways. One of the early Pathfinder modules has a very interesting case of an Aasimar villain. Her society's expectations for their "child of Heaven" became so extreme (and so strict, in ways the party is plainly meant to see as misguided) that she broke under the strain. With just a little prodding from some nearby demons, she wound up becoming a very rare sort of agent of evil -the kind they can't just homebrew- all because, as she sees it, they accepted her failings when society would not.

Of course, almost any tiefling's response to the above would probably be along the lines of "cry me a river," if they were even willing to phrase it that nicely. Especially in this real-world day and age, many would even argue that they'd be right to do so. But is there really nothing there?

[Jigawatts]

I also agree with Kurald.

Lets take Dragonlance. There are no orcs in DL. There are no drow in DL. So if I am running a Dragonlance game, there will be no half-orc or drow PC's, because they dont exist. Likewise, if Im playing in a Dragonlance game, Im not going to go to the DM with a half-orc or drow character either, because they dont exist. And thats perfectly ok.

[Jigawatts]

Regarding evil Aasimar, while not a WotC product, Paizo's premiere and still most popular Adventure Path, Rise of the Runelords, rather heavily features an evil Aasimar villain.

[Millennium]

Regarding evil Aasimar, while not a WotC product, Paizo's premiere and still most popular Adventure Path, Rise of the Runelords, rather heavily features an evil Aasimar villain.
We're thinking of the same one, I think.

[Eten]

Personally, I have viewed less races works better. Too many races, and I ask the question.... where are all these people? But then, my worlds tend to distrust magic users. And demon halfbreeds would have been drowned at birth by the resident attending church, as a creature of evil. Of course, this is all just me thinking how the standard farmer reacts to things like demons, people who can summon fire with a wave of a hand, etc.

I like the less-is-more approach also. My worlds are always dominated by traditional humans, elves, dwarves, and some halfling. But I don't block races either- if a player wants to be a Tiefling or something, I always say yes and I just ask them for a little bit more backround than normal, because they usually WOULD be drowned at birth or whatever. In fact I really like the lack-of-detail about Tiefling in the playtest "Tieflings are descended from human ancestors who mingled their blood with that of devils" because my players or I can make someone look almost entirely human and be a tiefling, or have outrageous devil horns, skin, eyes etc. and be a tiefling. They can be REALLY rare, or maybe not and there are a lot more of them than people realize.

For that line of reasoning I'm always for more races as long they're under my favorite little paragraph labeled "Unusual Races". So bring on the Aasimar, or w/e.

[rlc]

sure that works for you, but that should not be an assumption of the system. the system should assume that players only have player books, and DMs have those and DM books.

Not that making a distinction between owning something and just having access to it is really important, but I'd prefer to assume the latter, especially if you're taking newer players into account, which 5e seems to be doing.

[Angelalex242]

Anyways, it's true Tieflings would probably be drowned at birth...but then, what happens to Aasimar babies? Most such babies will have a half celestial, or at least another aasimar...as a parent. And that parent will know what's up. They don't just happen to two humans who don't know any better.

Do the parents raise them? Does the nearest good aligned church take them over? "Hey, church of Pelor, look at our new baby!" "...Wow, that's an Aasimar! We'll give you poor farmers 1000 GP if you leave the child here with us." "...that's 10 times more then we'd make in our lifetimes. Done."

Pretty sure no such babies are getting drowned if the Good Churches are paying serious gp to have any such babies with golden hair and silver eyes left on their doorstep. (Aasimar make friggin' awesome clerics and paladins, so they definitely want them as a new recruit.)

[obryn]

My point, when I created this thread, is that there's no reason on Faerun or Greyhawk why a campaign that allows Tieflings would disallow Aasimar.
Well, in Greyhawk, the lower planes run amok all over the world as it is. Cambions are probably more apropos than Tieflings, though.


I also agree with Kurald.

Lets take Dragonlance. There are no orcs in DL. There are no drow in DL. So if I am running a Dragonlance game, there will be no half-orc or drow PC's, because they dont exist. Likewise, if Im playing in a Dragonlance game, Im not going to go to the DM with a half-orc or drow character either, because they dont exist. And thats perfectly ok.
I think it's important to separate a discussion of mechanics and flavor. If all the player wants out of a half-orc or drow is the race's mechanics, it's pretty trivial to reskin it and make it work. Half-orcs could easily be humans from a barbarian culture, while drow can be ... gosh, I don't know DL that well, but some kind of isolated elf offshoot.

What's more, in any meta-setting like the D&D worlds have often been considered - whether it's Spelljammer or alternate Material Planes - this sort of traffic becomes trivial. There was a whole book for Krynnspace! :smallbiggrin:

With that said, the game's a collaboration and setting norms should be respected for the narrative, so long as the DM doesn't shoot down a potentially interesting idea out of hand. Who's to say that having an enclave of not-your-standard-drow wouldn't spice up Krynn a bit?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Do the parents raise them? Does the nearest good aligned church take them over? "Hey, church of Pelor, look at our new baby!" "...Wow, that's an Aasimar! We'll give you poor farmers 1000 GP if you leave the child here with us." "...that's 10 times more then we'd make in our lifetimes. Done."

Pretty sure no such babies are getting drowned if the Good Churches are paying serious gp to have any such babies with golden hair and silver eyes left on their doorstep. (Aasimar make friggin' awesome clerics and paladins, so they definitely want them as a new recruit.)

Why isn't this an adventure path? You work for the church to go around to buy babies... What could go wrong?

[RedWarlock]

Just keep in mind, there are some cases where random influences, rather than an infernal/angelic parent, create a tiefling or aasimar. Eberron had then as possible results from manifest zone influences.

I'd say it's better to have unusual races available in the PHB, but listed as provisional-on-whim-of-DM up front, rather than tucked away in other books. (Maybe a second section for races, outside of the base human/elf/dwarf/etc baseline stuff, with that warning opening the chapter.)

[Craft (Cheese)]

Tieflings are always more popular than Aasimar. I think it's partially due to the fact that "Aasimar" sounds horribly stupid when you say it out loud, and partially due to the fact that a tainted character is more fun to play than a virtuous one for many.

You can totally play an aasimar character as a super special hero filled with incorruptibly pure pureness if you want, but I find it more fun to not play them straight:

- A slayer of "evil" who is actually far worse to the innocent than the things he usually fights, but continues to be a jerk because he's been told all of his life that he's inherently good and can never do any wrong. (Try this out as an NPC you want your players to murder.)

- An escaped slave whose parents sold her to a pleasure house as a child, due to her features... commanding a high price in such a profession. (Squick optional.)

- An adventurer told he was destined to achieve greatness... only to have his worldview shattered when he heads out into the world and finds things not nearly so effortless as he was told they would be.


(Of course you can play many of these character concepts without having Aasimars in your setting, just as you can play most tiefling characters without them actually being tieflings: The point is that the golden hair or the demonic horns adds visual symbolism and thematic weight to both their actions and to the events they take part in.)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

You can totally play an aasimar character as a super special hero filled with incorruptibly pure pureness if you want, but I find it more fun to not play them straight:

- A slayer of "evil" who is actually far worse to the innocent than the things he usually fights, but continues to be a jerk because he's been told all of his life that he's inherently good and can never do any wrong. (Try this out as an NPC you want your players to murder.)

- An escaped slave whose parents sold her to a pleasure house as a child, due to her features... commanding a high price in such a profession. (Squick optional.)

- An adventurer told he was destined to achieve greatness... only to have his worldview shattered when he heads out into the world and finds things not nearly so effortless as he was told they would be.


(Of course you can play many of these character concepts without having Aasimars in your setting, just as you can play most tiefling characters without them actually being tieflings: The point is that the golden hair or the demonic horns adds visual symbolism and thematic weight to both their actions and to the events they take part in.)

I like playing them as a normal joe hero that doesn't get why people are weirded out by his looks, someone who is special for what he will do not because of something a family member did (had sex with a demon?). It is quite fun to play a character like this haha

[Angelalex242]

My Aasimar are typically Paladins, paragons of what it means to be Aasimar, the ones who know the expectations placed on them and meet them with a glad heart.

"I have advantage on all rolls against evil. Evil has disadvantage against me. Let me go forth and smite some evil!"

[rlc]

- A slayer of "evil" who is actually far worse to the innocent than the things he usually fights, but continues to be a jerk because he's been told all of his life that he's inherently good and can never do any wrong. (Try this out as an NPC you want your players to murder.)



This in a Crusader-style campaign. The Pope (or some king or whatever) is an Aasimar with a bad attitude and you actually work for him and get annoyed by his self-righteousness, but don't want to join those demon worshipping tieflings, either.

[Angelalex242]

Well, you could turn anyone into Miko Miyazaki 2.0, but that isn't anything against the race. It's against that particular character type.