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crazedloon
2007-02-20, 11:49 PM
This is my first Home made class so I will not be surprised if it is worded horribly (mainly because I suck at the English language :smalltongue: ) and or overpowered. However I would like to here some reviews as to how bad it actually is.

Combat Sniper

The orcs walked up the road towards the town expecting their normal living fee from the poor folks of the town. However this time there were 3 humans in the road. The biggest a man in full plate spoke first.
“Turn around orc you will not be threatening this village today, or ever again.”
The orc chief spoke back “What makes yous humans think you can stop us. We are far more then your puny party.”
“Because I have a card up my sleeve orc.” At these words the Human raised his hand.
“Was that mean Squishy?” Just as the chief said this three orcs behind him feel dead with arrows through their heads. “Was this trickery?”
“No stupid this is an ambush.” As he finished his sentence three more orcs fell dead with arrows in their heads. “It looks like our odds are a little more even.”
The orc raiding party was killed to the orc that day many of them to the invisible figure in the tree line 100 yards away from the path.


Level | Base Attack | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
1st | + 0 | + 2 | + 2 | + 0 | sneak attack +1d6, craft (Ghillie), Sniper shot 1
2nd | +1 | + 3 | +3 | + 0 | focused shot
3rd | +2 | +3 | +3 | +1 | sneak attack +2d6
4th | +3 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Sniper shot 2
5th | +3 | +4 | +4 | +2 | sneak attack +3d6, Power Shot
6th | +4 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Combat Ghillie, Improved Vision
7th | +5 | +5 | +5 | +2 | sneak attack +4d6
8th | +6/+1 | +6 | +6 | +2 | Sniper shot 3, Dead aim
9th | +6/+1 | +6 | +6 | +3 | sneak attack +5d6
10th | +7/+2 | +7| +7 | +3 | Fast sniping, hide in plain sight

A combat sniper excels at ranged combat and precise shooting. They will rarely fight a foe at close range when they can be just as effective at long range. A combat sniper relies on the ability to stay hidden long enough to get a devastating shot off that will cripple if not kill its intended foe.

Hit dice: d6

Requirements:
To qualify to become a Combat Sniper, a character must fulfill the following criteria:
Base Attack Bonus: +3
Skills: Hide 8 ranks
Feats: Weapon focus (Any bow or crossbow), Point Blank Shot, Far shot

CLASS SKILLS
The Combat Sniper class skills (and the ability linked to each skill) are
Balance(Dex), Bluff(Cha), Climb(Str), Craft(Ghillie)(int), Disguise(Cha),Escape Artist(Dex), Hide(Dex), Jump(Str), Knowledge Nature(Int), Listen(Wis), Move Silently(dex), Search(Int), Spot(Wis), Survival(Wis)

Skill Points per level: 6+Int modifier

sneak attack
If a Combat Sniper can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The Combat Sniper’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not). This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two Combat Sniper levels thereafter. Should the Combat Sniper score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
A Combat Sniper can only sneak attack with a ranged weapon.
A Combat Sniper can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The Combat Sniper must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A Combat Sniper cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

If a Combat Sniper gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

craft (Ghillie)
At level 1 a Combat Sniper makes a ghillie suit This takes the body slot normal reserved for cloak/capes/mantles. In addition she is granted 1 free rank in craft (Ghillie).

When a Combat Sniper enters new terrain (determined by DM) she may take 5 minutes to collect and add materials to her ghillie suit. This is represented by a craft (Ghillie) check with a DC 20 which receives a circumstance bonus of +2 each for having 5 or more ranks in Knowledge Nature and Survival. If the check is successful the combat sniper gains a +1 bonus to hide. If the Check fails she may try again but at a -5 to her role. For every 5 that this check exceeds 20 the Bonus is increased by +1 and reduces the penalty to hide after a snipping attack (as described in PHB p.76) by 5.

A Ghillie suit does not work in terrain other then the one in which it was made. If the suit is not recrafted then you gain a negative to your hide check equile to the bonus the suit would give in the proper terrain.

A Ghillie suit lasts for 1 hour/Combat sniper level. When the time limit on a suit is up she will have to craft a new suit or gain no bonus from her suit until she does.

A combat sniper may never take 10 or 20 on this craft check unless they have the Combat Ghillie skill.

Sniper shot
The combat sniper of 1st level may make 1 attack that ignores the range limitation on sneak attacks as a full round action. The combat sniper may make 1 additional attack at level 4 and 8.

focused shot
A combat sniper of 2nd level may spend 1 full round observing a foe she can take no other action. The next ranged attack gains a +2 bonus to attack for every round spent observing the foe. If she is attacked and wounded she loses any bonus she would have gotten from rounds spent observing.

Power Shot
A combat sniper of 5th level may multiply her sneak attack damage by her weapon's critical multiplier when she succeeds on a critical hit with a sniper shot. However she may only multiply it by the additional strength damage she deals with her weapon.

For example if she uses a long bow, crit x3, she will not gain any bonus because she does not deal any extra damage for a high strength. However if she uses a long composite bow with a strength rating of 2 she may multiply her sneak attack damage by 2, for 3 it would be multiplied by three. However you may never gain more damage then your critical multiplier and you can only gain extra damage if you benefit from the higher strength rating.

Combat Ghillie
A combat sniper of 6th level may take 10 on a craft check to make her ghillie even if stress or distraction would normally prevent her from doing so.

Improved Vision
A combat sniper of 6th level gains a +2 bonus on spot and search checks.

A combat sniper may make an attack at 2 times the normal range increment of her weapon without any penalty.

Dead aim
A combat sniper of 8th level may make a sniper shot attack that is automatically a critical threat. She can use this ability Ĺ her combat sniper level + her Int modifier per day. She may only do this 1 time per attack action.

Fast sniping
A combat sniper of 10th level may make sniper attacks as if they were normal attacks.

hide in plain sight
While in any sort of terrain the ghille suit was crafted in, a combat sniper of 10th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is in the same terrain, a Combat Sniper can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-02-21, 12:08 AM
Not bad...
How about an adaptation of the assassin death attack?
Boom, Headshot (Ex)

crazedloon
2007-02-21, 12:14 AM
Not bad...
How about an adaptation of the assassin death attack?
Boom, Headshot (Ex)

Lol no I would never give a class with this sort of range and ability to insta kill anything. The increased dice on crits I am a little leery about (and thus the reason I would like to see some reviews :smalltongue: )

Though I like the name of the ability.

knightsaline
2007-02-21, 12:20 AM
how about lessening the penalty to hide for shooting, then hiding? this class seems like it woud hide on top of a biulding or the top of a watchtower and wait for the perfect moment to strike. I can imagine the class having access to some ranger spells like air tunnel (spell compendium) and guided shot.

crazedloon
2007-02-21, 12:25 AM
how about lessening the penalty to hide for shooting, then hiding? this class seems like it woud hide on top of a biulding or the top of a watchtower and wait for the perfect moment to strike. I can imagine the class having access to some ranger spells like air tunnel (spell compendium) and guided shot.

Hmm well i Like the idea of Adding the bonus to hide after shooting. But i dont like the idea of spells. I see this class more of a specialist who has perfected thier killing style with training not spells. They pull of feats that would seam imposible by training to the peak of thier ability.

I think ill add the hidding bonus into the ghillie suit (as i have to add a cluase into it i forgot :smalltongue: )

TheOOB
2007-02-21, 12:28 AM
The class doesn't have to have spells per say, but a few spell-like abilities never hurt. Remember, that only three of the core classes have no magical ability at all (two if you count Use Magic Device), magic isn't something that should be too uncommon for players.

crazedloon
2007-02-21, 04:15 PM
I leave it for a day and no one else replies :smalleek:

What would adding spell-like abilities or spells to the character give the sniper? What sort of spells would the sniper want to be able do a few times a day? If you have any suggestions feel free to say them.

I don't have the compendium unfortunately so I donít know what air tunnel or guided shot does. Mind explaining.

Personally I can think of only 1 spell to give the Sniper and that is true shot a few times a day representing the innate ability to target very well on the fly.

So no other comments about the class besides needs spell like abilities. Is it really not that overpowered?

cferejohn
2007-02-21, 04:38 PM
I don't think it's overpowered. I mean, if he gets the drop on someone he can be pretty devestating, but so can a wizard, and like a wizard, he's in trouble if someone gets the drop on him...

Fade
2007-02-21, 06:13 PM
I don't think adding in a death attack would be overly powerful, especially since you could limit it to a single shot per round and the fort save isn't going to be all that high. From a roleplaying perspective it would make sense as well...

crazedloon
2007-02-21, 10:21 PM
I am still debating the death shot ability. As far as I am concerned the ability to do a lot of sneak damage out ways the death attack ability as far as this character is concerned. I also donít like death attack it is a little clunky and I have pretty much put its abilities into this character the only difference is you cant paralyze something with the extra sneak damage you can only kill them (never understood why an ability with the name death attack could paralyze someone :smalltongue: ).

Also bump since there was a bunch of other comments on a class like this
:smallwink:

knightsaline
2007-02-22, 06:29 PM
Guided shot allows you to "ignore distance, cover, concealment penalties for one round, Air tunnel's real name is wind tunnel. it allows you to get a comp bonus on ranged attacks and doubles the range of ranged attacks. another spell that would suppliment this class is snipers shot, allowing you to sneak attack at any range, but you must be able to sneak attack anyway

crazedloon
2007-02-22, 07:08 PM
Guided shot allows you to "ignore distance, cover, concealment penalties for one round, Air tunnel's real name is wind tunnel. it allows you to get a comp bonus on ranged attacks and doubles the range of ranged attacks. another spell that would suppliment this class is snipers shot, allowing you to sneak attack at any range, but you must be able to sneak attack anyway

Hmm i like the guided shot and air tunnel and ill look into were to slor those in as a spell like a bility. However i don't like the sniper shot becuase it is redundant with the actual class and its ability :smalltongue: (i.e. to make sneak attacks at range)

Icewalker
2007-02-22, 10:44 PM
considering that you already can make an attack as a standard action that ignores the minus to hit from range, automatically threatens a critical, is a sneak attack, and the sneak attack can be multiplied if the critical is confirmed (not to mention they can wait in the woods until their chance of confirming the critical is 19/20 (fumbles) because focused shot has no limit.)
I think each ability alone would be underpowered, but together I'd say it doesn't need anything additional.

crazedloon
2007-02-22, 11:02 PM
considering that you already can make an attack as a standard action that ignores the minus to hit from range, automatically threatens a critical, is a sneak attack, and the sneak attack can be multiplied if the critical is confirmed (not to mention they can wait in the woods until their chance of confirming the critical is 19/20 (fumbles) because focused shot has no limit.)
I think each ability alone would be underpowered, but together I'd say it doesn't need anything additional.
That was indeed the point. Lead up to a devistating attack but requires a good treck into the class.

(no one has said anything about the class feature i like the most that being the Ghillie :smallsigh: )

icke
2007-02-23, 07:16 AM
Two things:

1) Power Shot is too hefty, especially in combination with deadly aim. If a rogue oicks this prestige class, at level 20 one has 33d6 damage(115.5 average), plus any bonus damage that might occur thrice. Four arrows of this, with the Fast Sniping ability, and basically every character one can imagine is dead after this guy's combat turn. Even if You limit it to maximum crit multiplier = strength multiplier, a character taking this class will boost strength to get it anyway(magically or otherwise)

2) You wanted comment on the gillie, You get it: Basically a good idea, but it has some flaws. First, You should designate a date of expiry for this, if one picks up parts of plants for concealment, these will rot in a few hours, a day at best, depending heavily on what materials are used. One option would be to state that a gillie lasts for one hour(or day?) per Sniper level, another option includes producing a terrain table where gillie durability is plotted over terrain type, the Sniper level would modify the durations on that table.
Secondly, a gillie should grant the Carmouflage ability, at least when the character isn't moving.
Also, what Hide skill penalties does the gillie reduce? Those on movement while hiding, I presume, but state it more clearly.

Ping_T._Squirrel
2007-02-23, 11:34 AM
Yeah... Solid class and I was thinking something like this in a 5 level format, but that said, I really do noth think you should be mulitplying extra dice. That's a recipe for unblance. Escpecially since you can declare criticals at later levels.

akira72703
2007-02-23, 12:24 PM
Why not make an ability that functions off of the coup de grace principal for these guys since as snipers they will be spending alot of time wating and watching anyway. As a balance to it, all a modified fort save based off of the death from massive damage principle.

Ahhh suggestions wiith no elaboration mmmmm.

-E

crazedloon
2007-02-23, 04:35 PM
1) Power Shot is too hefty, especially in combination with deadly aim. If a rogue oicks this prestige class, at level 20 one has 33d6 damage(115.5 average), plus any bonus damage that might occur thrice. Four arrows of this, with the Fast Sniping ability, and basically every character one can imagine is dead after this guy's combat turn. Even if You limit it to maximum crit multiplier = strength multiplier, a character taking this class will boost strength to get it anyway(magically or otherwise)

I am interested that you think it is unbalanced. (I'm not saying it isnít Iím just a little baffled at the sudden thought that it is broken when before it was balanced) At level 20 casters can do much the same amount of damage and that is not including save or die spells so I donít really see how this class is much different (except the range at which it can do it) from any hard hitting caster (really I would like an explanation not trying to be argumentative). Also the auto crit is limited to 5+int mod which may be high if you are playing a rogue but I can see a max reasonable number being maybe 10 shots in this manner. And actually I wanted the character to have to boost strength because if you ask me if you are doing sneak at that range you should be using a very powerful bow to be delivering fast and accurate shots.

Also what am I facing that will have such low HP at a CR of 20 :smalltongue:



2) You wanted comment on the gillie, You get it: Basically a good idea, but it has some flaws. First, You should designate a date of expiry for this, if one picks up parts of plants for concealment, these will rot in a few hours, a day at best, depending heavily on what materials are used. One option would be to state that a gillie lasts for one hour(or day?) per Sniper level, another option includes producing a terrain table where gillie durability is plotted over terrain type, the Sniper level would modify the durations on that table.
Secondly, a gillie should grant the Carmouflage ability, at least when the character isn't moving.
Also, what Hide skill penalties does the gillie reduce? Those on movement while hiding, I presume, but state it more clearly.

Fixed the missing wording on the hide check. It was meant to help snipping shots though I donít know if it should help the while moving checks.

I understand that I should add a time limit to the suit and I have added a 1 hour/level cap to the suit before having to remake it.

Also that the Camo ability is represented by Hide in plane sight. I didnít want to restrict it to only natural terrain because I wanted to leave it open ended so you could explain to a DM how you could make a suit work in a city and thus still get the bonus.



Yeah... Solid class and I was thinking something like this in a 5 level format, but that said, I really do noth think you should be mulitplying extra dice. That's a recipe for unblance. Escpecially since you can declare criticals at later levels.

Hmm as i have said i am interested to see that you too think it is unbalalnced as others have said it seams balanced.


Why not make an ability that functions off of the coup de grace principal for these guys since as snipers they will be spending alot of time wating and watching anyway. As a balance to it, all a modified fort save based off of the death from massive damage principle.

Ahhh suggestions wiith no elaboration mmmmm.

-E

I would (especially because I like the way it can work, I've seen it in the assassin class in d20-40dk) but it can be to powerful with the other abilities. Massive damage is one thing but making a fort save of 100 is a little ridiculous :smallwink:

icke
2007-02-24, 09:05 AM
I am interested that you think it is unbalanced. (I'm not saying it isnít Iím just a little baffled at the sudden thought that it is broken when before it was balanced) At level 20 casters can do much the same amount of damage and that is not including save or die spells so I donít really see how this class is much different (except the range at which it can do it) from any hard hitting caster (really I would like an explanation not trying to be argumentative). Also the auto crit is limited to 5+int mod which may be high if you are playing a rogue but I can see a max reasonable number being maybe 10 shots in this manner. And actually I wanted the character to have to boost strength because if you ask me if you are doing sneak at that range you should be using a very powerful bow to be delivering fast and accurate shots.

Also what am I facing that will have such low HP at a CR of 20

The thing is, a sorcerer of that level can do 24d6 damage, once per round and six times per day. Your Sniper can do 33d6 damage, around seven times per day, and, this is important, three or four times per round! That's one target
definitely dead, be it the level 20 barbarian with a constitution score of 20, no save. No caster can manage that.
The strength boost is no hindrance for anyone, since magic items can grant any character enough strength to pull this stunt effectively. Plus, the crossbow user has a definite drawback here, only getting a x2 critical.
So all in all, no, one should not multiply sneak attack damage dice.




Also that the Camo ability is represented by Hide in plane sight. I didnít want to restrict it to only natural terrain because I wanted to leave it open ended so you could explain to a DM how you could make a suit work in a city and thus still get the bonus.


Carmouflage and Hide in Plain Sight are different abilities, the first allows a character to hide when there's no cover or concealment(usually the prerequisites for hiding), the second just allows a character to hide while being observed, cover or concealment are still required. So I guess You'll want Carmouflage instead of Hide in Plain Sight.

crazedloon
2007-02-24, 11:02 AM
The thing is, a sorcerer of that level can do 24d6 damage, once per round and six times per day. Your Sniper can do 33d6 damage, around seven times per day, and, this is important, three or four times per round! That's one target
definitely dead, be it the level 20 barbarian with a constitution score of 20, no save. No caster can manage that.
The strength boost is no hindrance for anyone, since magic items can grant any character enough strength to pull this stunt effectively. Plus, the crossbow user has a definite drawback here, only getting a x2 critical.
So all in all, no, one should not multiply sneak attack damage dice.

Hmm you make a good argument at least as far as comparing this ability to a strait caster build using only damage spells. Like I said they have save or dies spells like. I.e. wail of the banshee can kill 20 people in 1 round (of course that could involve your team mates but who cares :smalltongue: )
Or power word kill which can kill something outright without a save. And those are only spells out of the phb that i could think of right now

Would alowing 1 power shot an attack action make it less cheesy?






Carmouflage and Hide in Plain Sight are different abilities, the first allows a character to hide when there's no cover or concealment(usually the prerequisites for hiding), the second just allows a character to hide while being observed, cover or concealment are still required. So I guess You'll want Carmouflage instead of Hide in Plain Sight.

Well you are partially true as far as the camo not needing anything but being in a natural terrain. However hide in plain sight works the same way but normally requires some sort of "cover" for example the shadow dancer just needs shadows to be close. Now shadows arenít cover at all but the dancer can still hide in them. The idea is that hide in plain sight is a more vague way of camouflage and in my description of hide in plain sight it allows hiding in only terrain that your suit matches. This is very much reality based. I.E. I donít care how good you are at hiding if you are in an open field of short grass with a few bushes around if your suit is meant to hide you in a snow field you arenít going to hide very well however if you are in a green leafy looking suit you could hide much easier and make yourself look like a bush :smallwink:

MandibleBones
2007-02-24, 12:16 PM
Like the class so far, but wondering at the lack of love for other ranged weapons? Why not Weapon Focus (any ranged weapon)?

crazedloon
2007-02-24, 12:33 PM
Like the class so far, but wondering at the lack of love for other ranged weapons? Why not Weapon Focus (any ranged weapon)?

Well realy I couldnt think of any other ranged weapons besides bows and crossbows. The only other weapons I could think of was were all thrown weapons and in my opinion Master Thrower is a fine class for anyone who wishes to throw weapons. The idea behind that being a prereq is that the person taking the class has become very good at useing that weapon, so much so that they can manipulate their shots or make thier shots act like you would need them to in order to do do what the special abilitys of this class do (that was very hard to write and probably harder to read/understand).If you can give me an example of a weapon I am leaving out that is not a thrown weapon I would probably be willing to change the requirment.

Plus i just relized this but you could aplly all the abilitys to other ranged weapons besides a power or crossbow all you need is to spend 1 extra feat to enter the class. I should probably change that :smalltongue:

icke
2007-02-25, 06:04 AM
Hmm you make a good argument at least as far as comparing this ability to a strait caster build using only damage spells. Like I said they have save or dies spells like. I.e. wail of the banshee can kill 20 people in 1 round (of course that could involve your team mates but who cares :smalltongue: )
Or power word kill which can kill something outright without a save. And those are only spells out of the phb that i could think of right now

Would alowing 1 power shot an attack action make it less cheesy?

The spells You're talking about, and any others I know, always allow for some control on the side of the target: either a save or a hit point limit(though the power word spells are among the worst spells ever produced, kill any wizards but don't even harm the fighter, crap). A Sniper can kill any character outright in one round WITHOUT the target having any means to prevent it.

Yes, one Power Shot per attack action would be fine, but better even to make Power Shot as a standard action, it keeps the flavor of one precise shot.



Well you are partially true as far as the camo not needing anything but being in a natural terrain. However hide in plain sight works the same way but normally requires some sort of "cover" for example the shadow dancer just needs shadows to be close. Now shadows arenít cover at all but the dancer can still hide in them. The idea is that hide in plain sight is a more vague way of camouflage and in my description of hide in plain sight it allows hiding in only terrain that your suit matches. This is very much reality based. I.E. I donít care how good you are at hiding if you are in an open field of short grass with a few bushes around if your suit is meant to hide you in a snow field you arenít going to hide very well however if you are in a green leafy looking suit you could hide much easier and make yourself look like a bush :smallwink:


SRD says:

Camouflage (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))

A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesnít grant cover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#cover) or concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment).
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))

While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) skill even while being observed.

That means Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight are totally different things. If You want Your Sniper to be unseen in his gillie, even on terrain that doesn't usually grant that, Camouflage is what You want. Hide in Plain Sight has nothing to do with it, really.

crazedloon
2007-02-25, 01:51 PM
Well I decided that I did not wish to restrict the Power shot because I personally believe that It in itself is not to broken by itself however I have restricted the Dead aim so that you can not auto crit every time in a attack action (though even that is only a threat not an actual crit). I base it not being too broken off of telling blow which is a feat in PHBII to which allows you to add sneak damage to a crit hit. This happens only 1 time not by your multiplier so it is not quite as good as this power shot but power shot is 5 levels into a PrC not 1 feat :smallwink:. Also telling blow works even when sneak normally wouldnít and power shot only happens when you sneak. (But now I will need to add a clause to keep power shot and telling blow from stacking)

I also checked with the simple Q&A guys in d20 gaming and they confirmed that my interpretation of hide in plane sight is proper and that you do not need cover or concealment as long as you fit the requirements of using hide in plane sight in this case be in natural terrain.

icke
2007-02-26, 07:16 AM
I also checked with the simple Q&A guys in d20 gaming and they confirmed that my interpretation of hide in plane sight is proper and that you do not need cover or concealment as long as you fit the requirements of using hide in plane sight in this case be in natural terrain.

Funny, Your Q&A guys contradict the rules text as written in the SRD and in the PHB. But let's not get sidetracked, just state in the Sniper's special ability what You want it to do.

Concerning Your solution of the Power Shot problem, yes, this prevents the character overkill in one round, at least for large hit dice characters. I still think additional multiplication of crit damage is too hard. I don't know the PHBII, so no comments on the Telling Blow feat, but with the Power shot allowing monstrous amounts of crit damage it's still overpowered. Make it "double the Sneak Attack damage dice" and it will be powerfull enough, more than even.

jlousivy
2007-02-26, 09:54 AM
Dead-aim---- i think this should be a standard action.
As for power shot-- personallyy i believe it should be the bows crit modifier or the str modifier (whichever is lower) otherwise the sneak attack damage could be multiplied by 10..... i don't think there's any reason it should be able to do that
The sneak attack damage--- i think it should stack with other class's sneak attack (it isn't stated) however, when making a 30+ ft sneak attack, it should be limited to the sniper sneak attack.

That way the power shot deals: (1d#+str+enhanancement+5d6)x3 still very sizable, but not a (1d10+str+enhancement+10d6)x3 (or higher if you did a ton of multiclassing)

I love the class, in fact i was planning on making a ranged fighter type and i might use this class after a few modifications

crazedloon
2007-02-26, 07:22 PM
Funny, Your Q&A guys contradict the rules text as written in the SRD and in the PHB. But let's not get sidetracked, just state in the Sniper's special ability what You want it to do.
They gave me mixed answers :smallsigh: (so you where right and wrong and so was I)

But I made this hide in plain sight work like the shadow dancer classes hide in plain sight (I'm pretty sure I actually copied and replaced) and that hide in plain sight does not require any cover.


Concerning Your solution of the Power Shot problem, yes, this prevents the character overkill in one round, at least for large hit dice characters. I still think additional multiplication of crit damage is too hard. I don't know the PHBII, so no comments on the Telling Blow feat, but with the Power shot allowing monstrous amounts of crit damage it's still overpowered. Make it "double the Sneak Attack damage dice" and it will be powerfull enough, more than even.
Really I understand where you are concerned however you need 14 strength to do double, and 16 to do triple and that is the max crit on most bows (I need to clarify that ability a wee bit it doesnít allow any extra damage over your crit multiplier of your weapon)



Dead-aim---- i think this should be a standard action.
As for power shot-- personallyy i believe it should be the bows crit modifier or the str modifier (whichever is lower) otherwise the sneak attack damage could be multiplied by 10..... i don't think there's any reason it should be able to do that
The sneak attack damage--- i think it should stack with other class's sneak attack (it isn't stated) however, when making a 30+ ft sneak attack, it should be limited to the sniper sneak attack.

Well Dead aim is now restricted so in my opinion its is ok and does not require a standard action it more or less represents the way your first shot in a volly will always be your best.
As I said above that is what i meant (and may be the problem people are having) so ill be changing that now.
I need to add that wording forgot about that (once again what i meant) and that is the normal sneak attack wording (last time i checked) and the only thing that alows you to ignore that 30ft restriction is the sniper shots




I love the class, in fact i was planning on making a ranged fighter type and i might use this class after a few modifications

Im actualy supprised how many people like this class :smallbiggrin:

icke
2007-02-27, 06:13 AM
But I made this hide in plain sight work like the shadow dancer classes hide in plain sight (I'm pretty sure I actually copied and replaced) and that hide in plain sight does not require any cover.


The Shadow Dancer, the Ranger, the whoever. All of them use the same Hide in Plain Sight. In all entries it's stated that a character "can use the Hide skill even while being observed". Look up the Hide skill: there it's stated that a character can hide from view "if she has at least some cover or concealment".
So Hide in Plain Sight grants a character the ability to hide while being observed, BUT SHE STILL NEEDS COVER OR CONCEALMENT.
Camouflage however grants the ability to hide WITHOUT NEEDING COVER OR CONCEALMENT, but doesn't say anything about being observed.
The special thing with the shadow dancer is that for her shadows count as concealment.
For clarification, look up the Ranger class entry. It gets both Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight, which would be useless if they did the same thing...

crazedloon
2007-02-27, 06:01 PM
The Shadow Dancer, the Ranger, the whoever. All of them use the same Hide in Plain Sight. In all entries it's stated that a character "can use the Hide skill even while being observed". Look up the Hide skill: there it's stated that a character can hide from view "if she has at least some cover or concealment".
So Hide in Plain Sight grants a character the ability to hide while being observed, BUT SHE STILL NEEDS COVER OR CONCEALMENT.
Camouflage however grants the ability to hide WITHOUT NEEDING COVER OR CONCEALMENT, but doesn't say anything about being observed.
The special thing with the shadow dancer is that for her shadows count as concealment.
For clarification, look up the Ranger class entry. It gets both Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight, which would be useless if they did the same thing...

Now before you start yelling at me look at the shadow dancers hide in plain sight :smallsigh:

here ill even link to it Hide in Plain Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm#hideInPlainSight) it says that you can hide without cover (and now I see that I did not quite word it right and am changing it but please read what I refer to so you can tell me why I am wrong not that I am wrong because you say I am (thank you for the impute though))

icke
2007-02-28, 05:55 AM
I already read it before my last post, see the third line from below. I don't know why they did rephrase it for the Shadow Dancer(it's more a mixture of Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight there, really), but the original Hide in Plain Sight, the version I've been talking about the whole time, doesn't say a word about hiding without cover or concealment. But let's stop this part of the debate, since You've reworded the ability for the Sniper and it now actually says what it does and fits to what you described it should do.

Back to the rest of the class: As [B]jlousivy[B] already pointed out, the deadly aim has more flavor to it if it's made a standard action, not the first shot of a volley. There was something on this topic somewhere in the homebrew section, I'll see if I can find it...

crazedloon
2007-02-28, 05:25 PM
I already read it before my last post, see the third line from below. I don't know why they did rephrase it for the Shadow Dancer(it's more a mixture of Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight there, really), but the original Hide in Plain Sight, the version I've been talking about the whole time, doesn't say a word about hiding without cover or concealment. But let's stop this part of the debate, since You've reworded the ability for the Sniper and it now actually says what it does and fits to what you described it should do.

Back to the rest of the class: As [B]jlousivy[B] already pointed out, the deadly aim has more flavor to it if it's made a standard action, not the first shot of a volley. There was something on this topic somewhere in the homebrew section, I'll see if I can find it...

yep sorry about the argument.

Anyway I understand the flavor that would come from dead aim = 1 shot however I cant see a situation where taking 1 single shot that is a crit threat would be better then taking a volley (of even 2 because at that level you are getting 2 shots per sniper attack) of shots. With a bow you are criting on 19-20 (assuming you took improved crit) which isnít great but still possible and volume over quality in a sneak attack action is more often preferred.

I personaly don't want to lower the number of shots in a snipers attacks ether becuase i believe it makes flavorful sense to. Becuase any sniper will start out with only being able to make 1 or so shots acuratly before they need to reconsentrate but the more experienced (represented by levels) you get the easier it is for you to place one arrow after another on the same spot or at least vital spots.

So what I am saying I dont know how to set up the dead aim ability (however i realy dont want to get rid of it becuase besides flavor wise i believe it is relativly balanced) :smallmad:

icke
2007-03-01, 08:17 AM
Anyway I understand the flavor that would come from dead aim = 1 shot however I cant see a situation where taking 1 single shot that is a crit threat would be better then taking a volley (of even 2 because at that level you are getting 2 shots per sniper attack) of shots. With a bow you are criting on 19-20 (assuming you took improved crit) which isnít great but still possible and volume over quality in a sneak attack action is more often preferred.

I personaly don't want to lower the number of shots in a snipers attacks ether becuase i believe it makes flavorful sense to. Becuase any sniper will start out with only being able to make 1 or so shots acuratly before they need to reconsentrate but the more experienced (represented by levels) you get the easier it is for you to place one arrow after another on the same spot or at least vital spots.

So what I am saying I dont know how to set up the dead aim ability (however i realy dont want to get rid of it becuase besides flavor wise i believe it is relativly balanced) :smallmad:

in the case of an enemy with damage reduction, one critical shot is indeed preferable to many hits that can't pierce the target. I see how You want to evolve the ability with increasing experience, but if You allow volleys of sneak attack arrows the amount of damage a sniper deals is enormous.
How about making Deadly Aim the ability to add 1d6 damage per three(or four) class levels to any ranged attack a Sniper does with the projectile weapon he has a Weapon Focus feat for? The damage is not sneak attack damage, it can be used in regular combat as well, it applies to every arrow fired, but it is less than a regular rogues' sneak attack(so the rogues still have an advantage over this class). Doeas it sound reasonable?

crazedloon
2007-03-02, 11:42 PM
in the case of an enemy with damage reduction, one critical shot is indeed preferable to many hits that can't pierce the target. I see how You want to evolve the ability with increasing experience, but if You allow volleys of sneak attack arrows the amount of damage a sniper deals is enormous.
How about making Deadly Aim the ability to add 1d6 damage per three(or four) class levels to any ranged attack a Sniper does with the projectile weapon he has a Weapon Focus feat for? The damage is not sneak attack damage, it can be used in regular combat as well, it applies to every arrow fired, but it is less than a regular rogues' sneak attack(so the rogues still have an advantage over this class). Doeas it sound reasonable?
I see that as being the only time ever and really many shots is probably still preferable because I doubt the DR is that much to offset the sneak damage you could be getting + you still have the ability to crit on normal shots.

I donít like that version of deadly aim mainly because it is only emulating an already existing class i.e. Order of the bow Initiate and that class does 1d8s for its extra damage.

I donít think with the current limitation on dead aim and the need to max out this class before you can do a full attack with your weapon that the class is too broken. A caster can easily stop this and a fighter with the proper items can do the same. I donít see how being able to drop a bunch of damage in one go is much different from a wizard/sorc dropping a bunch of damage, dominating, or incapacitating you in power level.

I guesse my only problem is you are the only one who seams to think that the ability of this class is to strong. If there are any others who also think it is to strong please chime in why.

icke
2007-03-03, 05:28 AM
Yes, chime in everyone! The only thing I have left to say, if You're convinced it works, playtest it! That's the only way we can find out if anyone of us is right.

crazedloon
2007-03-03, 10:13 AM
Yes, chime in everyone! The only thing I have left to say, if You're convinced it works, playtest it! That's the only way we can find out if anyone of us is right.

Dont take any offense to anything I say it just doesn's seam all that broken to me (and apparently a bunch of people on page one). And I will actualy see if I can play test this soon :smallbiggrin:

LCR
2007-03-03, 10:48 AM
Well, good idea, really, but wouldn't it be a bit boring for you to actually play this class? I mean, all he basically does is waiting. And even if you like that, I bet the rest of your party doesn't.

crazedloon
2007-03-03, 11:39 AM
Well, good idea, really, but wouldn't it be a bit boring for you to actually play this class? I mean, all he basically does is waiting. And even if you like that, I bet the rest of your party doesn't.

In my opinion that also makes this class a little more balanced actualy :smalltongue: . But this class does not have to wait they can set up a quick ambush or quickly hide when a fight breaks out and use her skills at any range.

icke
2007-03-03, 01:00 PM
The Sniper has just the same 'problems' as the rogue, ranger, some monks and every assassin. The distribution of sneaky scenes and other stuff is up to the GM, so hopefully every class will have its moments, this one as well.

blackout
2007-03-04, 01:33 AM
Boom, headshot. Nice idea, crazedloon. Gotta show this to my party's ranger.

Celtic8824
2009-04-07, 11:13 AM
Why not make an ability that functions off of the coup de grace principal for these guys since as snipers they will be spending alot of time wating and watching anyway. As a balance to it, all a modified fort save based off of the death from massive damage principle.

Ahhh suggestions wiith no elaboration mmmmm.

-E


And to stick with the sniper theme for the whole thing, you can only use that ability as your opening/first attack for the battle. (The sniper's first shot when nobody knows he is there is most likely going to be a kill. Once they know he exists, the enemy becomes much more cautious and hard to hit.)