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gabrion
2014-06-08, 08:34 AM
First, credit it where it's due. Lix Lorn's Paladin fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?188022-3-5-Yet-Another-Paladin-Fix) got me thinking about several things here.
Stole a lot of formatting from qazzquimby
Thanks to WotC for the Factotum class, actually stole some concepts from there.










* * * * *

Ok, maybe Iím a few years late to the party, but hereís my spin on revamping the Paladin class, as it was fairly weak in 3.5 core. Up front, here were some of my guiding principles while writing this fix:
Aiming for (maybe high?) tier 3. For those unfamiliar, check on out the Tier system here. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293) Specifically, ďcapable of doing [nearly] all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area.Ē
Making progression appealing enough that players want to stick with the class (this is another reason I think they should have had better spellcasting...when your casting is bad enough that no one even considers it when deciding to multi-class, you have a problem).
Reducing MAD. If we assume pretty much everyone wants some CON and INT is always useful for skills, I donít think any class should really need to focus on more than two other abilities. This Paladin will want CHA (primary) and then either STR or DEX depending on how they are built to fight.
Maintain Iconic Paladin features (as I see them). I know this is controversial as ďPaladinĒ brings different iconic features to different people, but these are the ones that stand out to me:

Martial prowess: One way or another, I see Paladins being solid at normal martial combat.
Defenses: Paladins should be able to stand up to their enemiesí attacks better than most.
Vessels of Divinity: When a Paladin does something special, itís usually from calling on the power of their God. This often makes them capable of pulling off spectacular stunts just when they are most needed.
Spellcasting: Paladins cast divine spells, but I think they should have been better at it than they were in 3.5 core. I also think the mechanic should be different, more representative of the ďI trust my God to help meĒ schtick mentioned above.
Healing: Paladins should be able to do it, and it should be bursty in nature. Lay on hands was sort of correct in this regard, but too limited in my opinion.
Smiting: The mechanic in 3.5 was bad, which is why it was often fixed in rewrites (even Pathfinder took it a step forward). Still, it should exist in some form, as a limited number of potent attacks vs. enemies who oppose them is sort of a Paladin trademark.
Aura: Paladins have some sort of mojo going on that affects those around them.


OK with all that out of the way, I will appreciate any feedback you all may have. Thanks for reading and hopefully you enjoy!





* * * * *



Paladin


http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/moi_gallery/91026.jpg
"God was busy...he sent me instead"

Common tales of heroism often mention the Paladin - shining knights, divine crusaders, hands of the gods, but rarely do they capture the true nature of these champions. It's true that a Paladin is a servant of his god, but these champions are as varied as the gods themselves.

Making a Paladin

A Paladin is expected to fill the role of a traditional combatant, often heavily armored and using melee weapons, but he can also help the party succeed by calling on his deity to help him in various ways. Durable, dangerous, and seemingly always capable of some new, divinely inspired trick, a Paladin is a useful ally to have.
Abilities: Charisma is perhaps the Paladin's most important ability as it determines his pool of inspiration points, his spellcasting, and many of his special abilities. Strength is important to melee Paladins who wish to strike heavy blows. Constitution is valuable as the extra hit points are a boon to a class that often finds itself in the thick of battle.
Races: Any race can be a Paladin, though humans are most common. Because Paladins have a special connection to a god, worship of that god is a larger determinant in whether an individual may be a Paladin than what race they are.
Alignment: While stories are most often told of the Paladins who were champions of Justice or Goodness, they can actually be of any alignment, so long as it is not more than one step away from their deity. Paladins are simply divine champions of the gods and chaotic or evil gods are as likely to use mortal agents as lawful or good gods, though in stories, these Paladins are often described by different names (Blackguards, Death Knights, and Anarchs being common).
Starting Gold: 6d4x10 (150 gold).

Hit Die: d10



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
Max Spell Level
Spells Selected
Minor Auras Known


1st
+1
+2
+0
+2
Aligned Aura, Detect Alignment, Smite Opposition 1x/encounter, Minor Aura
-
-
1


2nd
+2
+3
+0
+3
Divine Inspiration, Healing Touch, Divine Grace
-
-
1


3rd
+3
+3
+1
+3
Moment of Need 1x/day, Rejuvenating Smite
1
3
2


4th
+4
+4
+1
+4
Divine Cleansing
1
3
2


5th
+5
+4
+1
+4
Smite Opposition 2x/encounter
1
4
3


6th
+6
+5
+2
+5
Divine Impetus
2
4
3


7th
+7
+5
+2
+5
Blinding Smite
2
5
4


8th
+8
+6
+2
+6
Divine Reach
2
5
4


9th
+9
+6
+3
+6
Smite Opposition 3x/encounter
3
6
5


10th
+10
+7
+3
+7
Divine Guidance
3
6
5


11th
+11
+7
+3
+7
Intervening Smite
3
7
6


12th
+12
+8
+4
+8
Moment of Need 2x/day
4
7
6


13th
+13
+8
+4
+8
Smite Opposition 4x/encounter
4
8
7


14th
+14
+9
+4
+9
Divine Impetus (full)
4
8
7


15th
+15
+9
+5
+9
Blinding Smite, Greater
5
9
8


16th
+16
+10
+5
+10
Divine Burst
5
9
8


17th
+17
+10
+5
+10
Smite Opposition 5x/encounter
5
10
9


18th
+18
+11
+6
+11
Divine Form
6
10
9


19th
+19
+11
+6
+11
Deadly Smite
6
11
10


20th
+20
+12
+6
+12
Final Plea
6
11
10


Class skills (4 + Int modifier per level): Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Ride, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim

Pretty standard stuff on the chasis, though notable improvements from base Paladin. Full BAB, two good saves, d10 HD, more skills per level.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Paladin is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (including tower shields).

Nothing big here.

Aligned Aura (ex): A Paladin gives off an Aura matching his alignment (see Cleric Aura).

Again, standard stuff for a divine, deity based spellcaster.

Detect Alignment (sp): At will, a Paladin can use Detect Alignment, which functions similarly to Detect Evil, but instead detects only those with an alignment opposed to the Paladin. For example, this would reveal both the Chaotic and Evil aspects of a chaotic evil creature if the Paladin were Lawful Good.

A common modification for fixes that remove the LG requirement, as this one does.

Minor Auras (Su): Paladins naturally exert influence over those around them. Some bark orders that improve martial prowess, while others speak encouraging words that increase confidence.
At 1st level, A Paladin learn to project a minor aura. These auras are detailed in the Marshal class in the Miniatures Handbook, and work in the same fashion. At each odd level, the Paladin can learn to project a different minor aura, though he can only ever project one minor aura at a time.

I wonít call this bit particularly inspired, but I wanted the Paladin to maintain the reputation as a natural leader of sort, positively influencing his allies. Minor auras are easy to add and work mechanically given the Paladinís focus on CHA.

Smite Opposition: Once per encounter, a Paladin may channel a powerful attack against an enemy. When making an attack he can add his Charisma modifier to the attack roll and his Charisma modifier + Paladin level to the damage roll. Smite Opposition only works against enemies with at least one alignment component opposed to the Paladin (or for True Neutral Paladins, against Lawful Good, Lawful Evil, Chaotic Good, or Chaotic Evil enemies). If a Paladin attempts to smite an enemy with no opposed alignment component, he does not gain the listed bonuses, but the smite attempt is not wasted.

As a Paladin increases in level, he can use Smite Opposition additional times per encounter, as detailed in the table above. He also gains special abilities that can modify his smite. A Paladin can only apply one special ability to any smite and he must declare it before attempting the smite. Some special abilities consume extra uses of Smite Opposition.



Rejuvenating Smite: At 3rd level, Smite Opposition can infuse the Paladin with vigor. If Smite Opposition damages an enemy, the Paladin is healed for an amount equal to his Charisma modifier.

Blinding Smite: At 7th level, a Paladinís weapon may shine with the light of his god when using Smite Opposition. If his smite damages an enemy, they are blinded for one round.

Intervening Smite: At 11th level, a Paladin may smite an enemy attempting to attack his ally. This Smite Opposition attempt may be made as an immediate action whenever an enemy attempts a melee attack against one of the Paladinís allies within 30 feet of him. The Paladin rushes to any unoccupied space adjacent to both his ally and the enemy and smites the foe. If his smite damages the enemy, their attack against his ally fails. A Paladin cannot use Intervening Smite if there is no unoccupied space adjacent to both his ally and the foe. If the target of this smite is not an eligible target for Smite Opposition (because he does not have an alignment component opposed to the Paladin), Intervening Smite cannot be used.

Blinding Smite, Greater: At 15th level, a Paladinís weapon may release a nova of light when using Smite Opposition. This ability works as Blinding Smite, but all enemies within 30 feet of the target are blinded for one round. This consumes two uses of Smite Opposition.

Deadly Smite: At 19th level, a Paladinís Smite Opposition has the power to slay his foe in one strike. If the Paladinís smite damages an enemy, they must make a fortitude saving throw with a difficulty class equal to Paladin level + Charisma modifier, or die. This consumes three uses of Smite Opposition.


Like many smite fixes, one big change is to encounters/day. Unlike some others, instead of just increasing the number of uses as a Paladin gains levels, I decided to add what I think are flavorful riders on the smite ability. Blind is a pretty strong status to apply, especially with no save, but itís only for one round. Applying it to all enemies in 30 feet is likewise good, but comes at a pretty high level. Limited self-healing with a smite lets the Paladin save his healing for allies. Intervening Smite lends itself to the Paladin being a protector. Deadly Smite can be extremely potent, but comes at such high levels that this will not be breaking the game compared to what other classes are capable of.

Divine Inspiration: A Paladin is blessed by the favor of his God, receiving special favor that can manifest in many ways. At 2nd level, a Paladin gains a pool of Divine Inspiration points equal to Paladin level x Charisma modifier. These Divine Inspiration Points fuel many of the Paladinís special abilities.

A Paladinís pool of Divine Inspiration points is replenished after eight hours of rest and any change in Charisma after that point does not grant additional Divine Inspiration points. A Paladin can also recover a number of Divine Inspiration points equal to his Charisma modifier after each encounter by resting for five minutes (this time is commonly spent in prayer or contemplation).

Ok this is pretty much the core mechanic of the class, so any feedback is appreciated. The pool grows rapidly as a Paladin gains levels and increases Charisma, but then he also has more applications for the points.

I added the bit about recovering some points after each encounter due to the fact that at lower levels the Paladin didnít seem capable of sustaining their use for very many encounters, while at higher levels, he can go on much longer. Recovering CHA mod points after each encounter is a huge boon to lower level Paladins, while not adding much power to higher level ones.

Healing Touch: A Paladinís touch alone can heal many wounds. At 2nd level, a Paladin can channel Divine Inspiration as a standard action to heal hit point damage. Each point point of Divine Inspiration spent heals an amount equal to the Paladinís Charisma modifier. A Paladin can spend a number of points in this fashion equal to his Paladin level each encounter.

I did say I wanted the Paladin to be a good healer, yes? This ability is far stronger than Lay on Hands, but I donít think thatís a huge problem. I think it makes sense for core type abilities to theoretically have some use each encounter, rather than be daily uses.

Divine Grace: A Paladin is protected against many effects that would harm him. At level, a Paladin gains a bonus equal to his Charisma modifier (if any) on all saving throws. This modifier cannot be higher than his Paladin level.

Moved this from level 10 back to level 2, where most Paladin players expect it to be. I just was never a big fan of getting full Cha mod to saves with a two level dip, so instead I capped it by level.

Ya, were you wondering where this was? I still think itís iconic (Paladins shrug of spells pretty often), but I think giving it at level two was OP. Plus it made people who sometimes dip Paladin two levels just for Divine Grace. I donít like those people. I do think it can fit in as a class ability at lower levels, but only if the bonus is capped by levels in that class.

Oh and I am aware that this is still available many other places, so I havenít really solved the ďproblemĒ of dipping for Divine Grace, but I canít control those things. I can only make sure someone who plays this class does it because they want to play this class. :)

Spellcasting: Starting at 3rd level, Paladins learn to channel their Divine Inspiration to cast divine spells, which are drawn from the Paladin or Cleric spell lists, though a Paladin cannot cast any spell with an alignment descriptor opposed to his alignment. A Paladin knows all spells on his spell list, but he can only select a certain number of them to be available each day, as show in the table above, and the selected spells become his spell list for that day. Selecting these spells must be done after eight hours of rest.

To cast a spell, a Paladin must have a Charisma score equal to 10 + the spell level. The difficulty class for a saving throw against a Paladinís spell is 10 + the spell level + the Paladinís Charisma modifier.

A Paladin casts spells by using his Divine Inspiration. Each spell costs a number of Divine Inspiration points equal to 1 + (3 x the spell level). A Paladin can spend up to 2 x Paladin level Divine Inspiration points in this manner each encounter. A Paladin casts his spell spontaneously, similar to a Sorcerer. He can add metamagic feats he knows to any spell he can cast, adjusting the spell level and Divine Inspiration point costs appropriately. He must still pay any XP cost associated with a given spell and provide any valuable material component.

Ok now this is where things get interesting. I freely admit part of this was motivated by the way Factotums cast spells, though the flavor also fits with calling on a deity to get whatís needed. Some things to think about: Max spell level (from this ability) is 6th level and comes at 18th level. So, far better than the base Paladin, but not crazy enough to outshine full casters.
Spell selection is very open...in theory an 18th level Paladin can have 11 level 6 spells prepared at the same time, any of which can be cast spontaneously. This may seem over the top, but keep in mind the real restriction is on how many points can be spent to cast spells any given encounter. That Paladin can only spend up to 36 points on spellcasting each encounter and each 6th level spell costs 19 points.

Moment of Need: Preparation is key to victory, but faith can provide in times of need. At 3rd level, when a Paladin first learns to cast spells, he can also call on his god once per day to provide him with the ability to cast a spell he has not prepared that day. This can be any Divine Spell and can be of any level up to one level higher than spells he can normally cast. Using this ability costs the normal amount of Divine Inspiration points to cast the spell, plus an additional number of Divine Inspiration points equal to the spell level (though these additional points do not count against the maximum number of points he can use for spellcasting each encounter). At 12th level, a Paladin can use Moment of Need an additional time each day.

Ok now I consider this what makes the Paladin truly competitive and may actually need some balancing. Effectively the chart showing ďmax spell levelĒ is wrong - any Paladin who can cast spells can cast a spell one level higher than the value shown in that chart, but itís a special exception to the rules with limited use. This is what pushes the Paladin to the top of Tier 3 and, if versatility alone were enough to make it into Tier 2, would land him in the bottom there.

Why? Because he can cast up to 7th level spells (1x per day at low levels and 2x/day later on), but from any divine spell list. Ya itís good. Itís expensive though, to the point that most players wonít want to count on using it, lest they diminish their other abilities that rely on the same pool of points. But when they do run into a situation where they simply donít have the tools they need, this is an extremely powerful ability.

To give an example with numbers again, a 10th level Paladin could normally cast 3rd level spells, but Moment of need allows him to cast a 4th level spell once per day. If he has a CHA mod of +8, he has a total pool of 80. He can normally spend up to 20 points casting spells each encounter. If he decides to cast a 4th level spell, it will cost him 17 points, 13 of which count against his per encounter limit for spellcasting (leaving only enough points to cast one more 2nd level spell), and will cost a total of nearly ľ his total points for the day, which he may need for healing, turning, etc.

Divine Cleansing: Paladins stand strong against the common hordes of evil. At 4th level, a Paladin gains the ability to turn undead or evil outsiders. This ability works as a Cleric of the Paladinís level, except it can affect either undead or evil outsiders. Each use consumes 2 Divine Inspiration points and the Paladin can use this ability a number of times each day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Other than the changes specified here, this ability is treated exactly as the the 3.5 Paladin ability "Turn Undead."

Two differences from turn undead. First, I put undead and evil outsiders (mostly demons and devils) in the same camp as ďstandard-evil-invades-the-world-we-have-to-stop-itĒ type enemies. Paladins are usually there to stop demons from coming through a rift to kill us all, or turn back an undead army. This is mostly a thematic thing, but also has potential for them to fill a niche role in certain campaign settings (and sets precedent for the DM to say, ďhmm maybe I want my central hero to be a dedicated enemy of (insert key type of bad guy in campaign). Second, it obviously uses points - the same as most of the class abilities. I tried to make it user friendly though, with the ability to convert these turn uses to the many applications 3.5 developed for expending turn attempts.

One more thing...the limitation on uses/encounter not only matches the way other expenditures of points work, but also prevents some abuse in my opinion (looking at you DMM Persist).

Divine Impetus: A whisper from his god can drive a Paladin to actions otherwise impossible. At 6th level, a Paladin can spend 10 Divine Inspiration points, once per encounter as a free action, to gain a second standard action on his turn. At 14th level Divine Impetus instead grants an additional full round action, but costs 20 Divine Inspiration points (still limited to once per encounter).

Did I rip off factotum? MaybeÖ

Still, it makes sense to me, and I think is a very powerful boost, but at an appropriate level.

Divine Reach: Healing through touch is not always enough. At 8th level, a Paladin who uses Healing Touch can target an ally within 30 feet.
Boosts healing - at this point a Paladin should be pretty good at it.

Divine Guidance: While other souls must rely on their own knowledge, a Paladin trusts his god to guide him. At 10th level, a Paladin can use Divine Guidance once per week to seek guidance from his God. This ability works like the Commune spell, but with the following differences: Answers to the Paladin's inquiries may be up to five words, and he does not pay the associated experience point cost of casting the spell.

Since I moved Divine Grace back to 2nd level, I needed a replacement here. I kept coming back to the idea that I need to fortify the Paladin's ability to "not be useless," which is a common trait of low tier classes when they face challenges that don't match up to their specialty.

Knowledge is power, or something, and with an ability like this, I don't see how a Paladin who hits level 10 could ever be useless to a party. It could be said that this is a fluff type ability, but I actually see it as being key if the DM is any good. Any time the party needs guidance because they've hit a brick wall or something, if they have a Paladin with them, they sort of have a free "phone a friend." Of course that friend is a god, so pretty useful in my opinion. And I also think it just fits - the Divine Crusader in the group praying for guidance, then telling everyone else what they need to do next.

Divine Burst: The healing gift of a Paladin cannot be contained. At 16th level, a Paladin who uses Healing Touch heals the target for the standard amount, and also heals allies within 30 feet of the target for half the amount.

More healing. You can yawn, but let me finally say something more about the line of Healing Touch -> Divine Reach -> Divine Burst. I really think 3.5 screwed up healing, to the point where it was better 95% of the time to spend an action killing enemies faster than to try to heal damage. This is why things like Crusader from Tome of Battle were cool, as they removed the need to calculate the trade off. I digress, but my point is that healing people should have been a reasonable way to spend action in combat. Healing Touch is good because of the burst potential, compared to say a cure spell.
Divine Reach is good because it provides positional advantage. If you need to move before attacking in a round, youíre (normally) only going to get one attack anyway. So if you can heal and then move (without having to move to the ally who needs the healing), the trade off isnít always a bad one, and you can be set up to smash some face next round.
Divine Burst is great because there is plenty of AoE burst damage a party may suffer, while not as many great options for burst AoE healing. There are certainly cases in combat where it would be worth using this ability over, say, attacking.
By the time a Paladin has his full line of healing abilities, he also has Impetus. So maybe he Does a full attack around (including a smite that Blinds all enemies within 30 feet for one round), then uses Impetus for healing touch, which heals every party member in 30 feet (possibly from very low HP to full, if the Paladin decides to blow his points that way). I certainly wouldnít mind being on said Paladinís team.

Divine Form: The power of his god transforms a Paladin into a mighty avatar. At 18th level, a Paladin may spend 10 Divine Inspiration points as a standard action to transform into a Half-Celestial (or Half-Fiend if Evil) for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier. Neutral Paladins can choose either form when they activate this ability. Divine Form can be used once per encounter.

What to say...my inspiration for this was that the Paladin should have some sort of transformation, power up, etc. I picked Half-Celestial because it fits thematically and seems pretty powerful for the level. Of course it opens the doors to certain abuses...without even choosing an outsider race, the paladin can turn into one, then use Moment of Need to cast Polymorph to be something else awesome, or whatever (I forget if there is a way to persist polymorph, but if so, he can of course do that through DMM Persist if he has the feats). I think going back to class tiers though, stuff like this falls into the tier 3 clause ďCan be game breaking with specific intent to do so.Ē In other words, the ability to turn into a Half-Celestial each encounter, at 18th level, isnít going to break the game or trivialize encounters by itself, but it certainly has potential abuses. Of course itís easier to just become an outsider some other way, much ealier, and pick a class with better spell progression if thatís really what you want to do.

Final Plea: When all hope seems lost, a Paladinís faith turns his godís favor into the greatest gift. At 20th level, by expending the remainder of his Divine Inspiration points for the day as an immediate action, a Paladin can become immune to hit point damage for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier. He can still die from effects that do not rely on hit point damage, but if this happens, a True Resurrection spell targets him when the Final Plea would normally expire. This ability cannot be used more than once per week.

Seems appropriately thematic as a capstone, and especially given the ďyou-canít-kill-me-nessĒ Paladins often show.



Change Log


08/06/2014: First posted.
09/06/2014: Moved Divine Grace from level 10 to level 2, but capped it at Paladin level.
10/06/2014: Added (improved) commune at 10th level. Improved smite damage.
10/06/2014: Added Climb, Jump, Survival and Swim to class skills.
10/06/2014: Changed cleansing uses per day and made it more clear that it "acts like" traditional turn undead. Still uses inspiration points.
14/0602014: Clarified how spell selection/spellcasting works.



Divine Companion: While a Paladinís god always walks with him in spirit, he also grants a more tangible presence. For many Paladins this is a trustworthy mount, but for others it is some other companion that travels with them. At 6th level, a Paladin gains a companion similar to the Druidís Animal Companion ability, but with the following differences. The Paladin is treated as his level -2 for determining the companions progression (and which companions are available to him), but his companion has the Celestial template.

Not a crazy departure from the base Paladin, but honestly I just donít think they all have to be mounted, so they have a ďcompanionĒ instead.

nonsi
2014-06-09, 05:23 AM
.

WHAT, no Climb, Jump, Survival & Swim?
Paladins are supposed to be heroes Ė allow them the option to move as such.


Alignment: TN (the least appropriate for a paladin) seems to have a distinct advantage over the other alignments.


Rejuvenating Smite is acceptable at low levels, but you'd hardly notice it at mid-high levels.
Intervening Smite: this should not require adjacency at all. All a paladin should need is for an enemy to be within striking distance (e.g. weapons with reach). And make it 1/2 movement rate rather than a fixed 30'.


Divine Inspiration: Nicely executed Ė both the pool and the recovery method.


Spellcasting: I'm a big oppose to the prepared approach. This forces players to guess what's to come ahead. Give it a solid list of known spells (a partial caster really doesn't need a large repertoire) and make them spontaneous. It even fits the flavor better Ė especially since a paladin calls on his deity to provide whatís needed and having limited usage per encounter.


Moment of Need: I'm quite ok with this one.


Divine Cleansing: Are you ok with the Paladin beating the Cleric on this aspect?


Divine Companion: This is a significant boost (just noting).


Level 10 is painfully dead.





All in all, your Paladin could fit well into a game where magical gear is less influential - where the other classes are just as competent.

Nice inspiration and overall nice execution.

toapat
2014-06-09, 09:14 AM
Divine Cleansing: Are you ok with the Paladin beating the Cleric on this aspect?

The ability doesnt qualify as turn undead, rendering it virtually worthless.

Spellcasting is too complex for quite litterally no benefit.

inclusion of Marshal auras is pointless or overpowered, depending on specific aura

Divine Grace capped by Paladin level is the incorrect way to handle such a mechanic, it should should be reduced by multiclassing

You seem to have used inspiration points as a copout for re-working classfeatures without really understanding what makes them good/bad or whats overpowered.

The limits on abilities is arbitrary and just feels bad. Even if a class cant actually nova, Saying you cant nova feels worse then just not being able to.

Edit:

Spellcasting: Crippled.
Versatility: Untouched
Power: Total Spectrum Nerf barring smite evil. Smite evil not improved in meaningful way
Flavor mistakes: Paladins are beholden to no gods.

gabrion
2014-06-09, 04:54 PM
Thanks for the feedback. Don't have time to update much tonight, but I'll give a few responses in the mean time.


.

WHAT, no Climb, Jump, Survival & Swim?
Paladins are supposed to be heroes Ė allow them the option to move as such.

Easy enough to fix.



Alignment: TN (the least appropriate for a paladin) seems to have a distinct advantage over the other alignments.


You mean being able to smite 4 different alignments, right? Ya this did cross my mind, may have to relook at it. Honestly I'm happy to have a Paladin class that is free of the LG requirement (I still need to put the fluff up front, but when I do I may point out that they are divine champions, but may be called something different from Paladin).



Rejuvenating Smite is acceptable at low levels, but you'd hardly notice it at mid-high levels.

Which is somewhat ok by me, as you'll have other good options at those higher levels.


Intervening Smite: this should not require adjacency at all. All a paladin should need is for an enemy to be within striking distance (e.g. weapons with reach). And make it 1/2 movement rate rather than a fixed 30'.

Will relook at this...I can definitely see how as long as you could hit the enemy you could perform such an attack.



Divine Inspiration: Nicely executed Ė both the pool and the recovery method.

Thanks. I still have a spread sheet where I'm running through a lot of permutations to see what's possible, and some changes may occur, but so far I like it.


Spellcasting: I'm a big oppose to the prepared approach. This forces players to guess what's to come ahead. Give it a solid list of known spells (a partial caster really doesn't need a large repertoire) and make them spontaneous. It even fits the flavor better Ė especially since a paladin calls on his deity to provide whatís needed and having limited usage per encounter.

Are you suggesting a static pool of spells they can cast, but they can cast literally any of them at any time (just making sure I understand correctly).

The problem I ran into is that I wanted them to have access to higher than 4th level spells, but obviously there aren't such spells for Paladins. So I gave them access to both Paladin and Cleric spells, which I think is a nice boost (regardless of what level spells you have access to, a bigger list is generally better). I see the spell preparation as a Paladin picking sort of staple spells that they know are useful for their character, or maybe specific ones when they have foreknowledge of a particular challenge.

To fill the cracks even more, I gave them the very limited ability to cast any divine spell up to 7th level without having it prepared. I think this is pretty good and goes a long way to solve one of the problems of low tier classes - running into problems they simply aren't equipped to solve. And of course fits the idea of asking their god for help.

In summary, I didn't want to write them a set spell list because having access to all cleric/paladin spells is pretty good even if you have to prep them, but I did give them a nice trump card if they don't have what they need.


Divine Cleansing: Are you ok with the Paladin beating the Cleric on this aspect?

Hmm, the way you ask makes me feel like I'm missing something...are you just talking about potential number of uses/day?


Divine Companion: This is a significant boost (just noting).

Noted.


Level 10 is painfully dead.

Ya if you check the changelog you'll see this was my fault...I had Divine Grace there (I have never been a fan of such a powerful ability being granted at level 2), but I moved it and just tweaked the way it worked instead, but I didn't come up with a good replacement.



All in all, your Paladin could fit well into a game where magical gear is less influential - where the other classes are just as competent.

Nice inspiration and overall nice execution.

Thanks again, you've given me some useful feedback and stuff to look back over.


@taopat - Not sure if I'm stepping into a baited troll pit, but I'll try for at least one round of responses.


The ability doesnt qualify as turn undead, rendering it virtually worthless.

A) It spells out that for anything that uses turn attempts, you can use this, so that seems pretty important.
B) "At 4th level, a Paladin gains the ability to turn undead..." So if you're concerned about things that require you be capable of turning undead, it seems pretty clear.

Still, I can easily make it spell out more clearly that it counts as the same ability. What were you thinking of that it wouldn't let a player qualify for so I know what the mistake was?


Spellcasting is too complex for quite litterally no benefit.

Casting increase to 6th level spells and list expanded to include cleric spells is "literally no benefit?" Being able to cast any Divine Spell up to 7th level is "literally no benefit?" Being able to cast more per day and more per encounter is "literally no benefit?"

This is where I start to think maybe you didn't read it, but I'm open to pretty much any dialogue. If you want to clarify what you meant, I'd be happy to hear it.


inclusion of Marshal auras is pointless or overpowered, depending on specific aura

I wanted to keep some sort of aura, but I also didn't want to make it a static class ability that was the same for every Paladin because while I see them exerting an influence on those around them, I don't see it being 100% the same for each Paladin. Minor auras seemed like a good solution.


Divine Grace capped by Paladin level is the incorrect way to handle such a mechanic, it should should be reduced by multiclassing

To clarify, I should specify that they get full bonus when they get the ability at 2nd level, but that it is reduced in effectiveness if they multiclass?


You seem to have used inspiration points as a copout for re-working classfeatures without really understanding what makes them good/bad or whats overpowered.

How did you come to this conclusion?


The limits on abilities is arbitrary and just feels bad. Even if a class cant actually nova, Saying you cant nova feels worse then just not being able to.

Now I have to wonder if you followed 3.5 much at all. The starting paradigm of giving a class a set of features, telling them how much they could use them in one day, and then just letting the boat sail a) was problematic at best and broken at worst and b) WotC realized this and started to do more "per encounter" stuff (or at-will but lower powered stuff) toward the end.

Would you make the same argument that Martial Adepts "feel bad" because their recovery mechanism spells out that they "can't nova?"


Edit:

Spellcasting: Crippled.

I assume you mean compared to tier 1s?


Versatility: Untouched

Can be heavy lifting dedicated healers if they want, are better in combat, have more skills, access to one of the most versatile spell lists (up to 7th level spells) of any class, and you consider them no more versatile than 3.5 base Paladin?


Power: Total Spectrum Nerf barring smite evil. Smite evil not improved in meaningful way

Ah I'm convinced now you didn't read the class and I just wasted a good 5 minutes replying to you.

Maybe not though...perhaps you can give an example of any one thing the base Paladin can do better than this fix?


Flavor mistakes: Paladins are beholden to no gods.

Well at least one productive thing. I agree that I need to add the whole into fluff part, including an explanation of what a Paladin is. I posted it when the mechanical stuff was finished, but I certainly need to add the first part. Still, I think it should probably come through most of the class features that they have a strong connection to a god...

toapat
2014-06-09, 11:44 PM
*Terrible and blind argument*

1: Your turn Undead does not qualify as Turn undead. This makes it entirely irrelevant for prerequisites and thus ruins the ability

2: Cleric Casting is actually worse then Paladin casting, Because paladin casting is designed around their limited spell range and at 4th has 6-7th level equivalents. You also are limited to a horrible 2 spells/encounter and 11 prepared even though normally you want to be spending 3-4 as swift actions. You also lowered the total number of paladin spells available by 3-5

3: Minor Auras are a horrible solution to adding variety. They also only serve to exasperbate the problems of paladin

4: You completely invalidated access to all Substitution levels. You dont have anything that matches the value of Harmonius Knight and you cant qualify for Sword of the Arcane Order, which wouldnt function anyway. Skills dont count to any meaningful level for versatility, and giving the paladin More doesnt help if that More isnt spells, which you clamped down on horrifically.

5: Your smite changes dont do anything to make smite evil compete with Barbarian Rage/Fighter Weapon Specialization/Ranger Favored Enemy/Rogue Sneak attack.

6: paladin is not cleric.

XionUnborn01
2014-06-10, 01:03 AM
I like the class, it's got more options than just mounted uber charger which is a big improvement to begin with.

I like the inspiration points, though without sitting down and doing math, I'm not able to comment on the amount and if it should be lower/higher but it sounds like you've probably done some math yourself.

My only real let down is that the divine form is kind of a let down. I say that only because half-celestial at 18th level isn't that awesome but I do get the power of it and polymorph. Have you thought of using the visage of the deity line of spells for a scaling ability? I say that mostly because of the fact that I think it would be better to possibly have 2 or 3 different stages of transformation.

I like the class though, keep up the good work.

P.S. Ignore toapat, they're either obvious troll or oblivious troll.

nonsi
2014-06-10, 02:05 AM
Are you suggesting a static pool of spells they can cast, but they can cast literally any of them at any time (just making sure I understand correctly).

As long as it's versatile enough to encompass the general needs of a divine champion - yes.
There are plenty of cleric spells that have nothing to do with the divine champion role.




Hmm, the way you ask makes me feel like I'm missing something...are you just talking about potential number of uses/day?

Indeed.
Dabblers shouldn't top specialists at their own game (matching capabilities could be ok though).




Ya if you check the changelog you'll see this was my fault...I had Divine Grace there (I have never been a fan of such a powerful ability being granted at level 2), but I moved it and just tweaked the way it worked instead, but I didn't come up with a good replacement.

Dual-aura maybe?
Greater auras maybe?



And don't take toapat's approach for increasing spells per encounter.
It'll totally ruin the theme you're aiming at.
For a divine champion, spells should be fallback (when martial prowess and innate features don't cut it), not the main schtick.

gabrion
2014-06-10, 03:39 AM
I like the class, it's got more options than just mounted uber charger which is a big improvement to begin with.

I like the inspiration points, though without sitting down and doing math, I'm not able to comment on the amount and if it should be lower/higher but it sounds like you've probably done some math yourself.

Thanks and thanks for the productive feedback. Still considering the numbers, but like you've said, I did at least put some math into it before putting it on paper. Not sure it's 100% right, but I'll also be playtesting it soon so will have some feedback that isn't entirely theoretical.


My only real let down is that the divine form is kind of a let down. I say that only because half-celestial at 18th level isn't that awesome but I do get the power of it and polymorph. Have you thought of using the visage of the deity line of spells for a scaling ability? I say that mostly because of the fact that I think it would be better to possibly have 2 or 3 different stages of transformation.

Thanks for mentioning that line of spells, I was looking for it but for some reason couldn't remember the name. Now that I've looked though I'm let down a little bit. It seems like comparing Greater Visage of the Deity to granting the Half-Celestial template, the latter is better anyway.

Using them as a line as the class progresses (rather than just one transformational ability at 18th) could be an option though.


As long as it's versatile enough to encompass the general needs of a divine champion - yes.
There are plenty of cleric spells that have nothing to do with the divine champion role.

Hmm I'll have to seriously consider this. One apprehension I have is that making a static spell list means it really never changes, regardless of what books are available. Of course this is less of an issue after 3.5 material stopped being printed since every spell available to the class is already written and it would just be a matter of putting on paper which ones the paladin can use.

And yes there are a lot of cleric spells that don't fit with the Paladin theme, but Moment of Need is an important class feature to me because it represents the ability to break out of the Paladin's normal role by asking a big favor of his god. And balance wise it's important because it adds much needed versatility. If one thing that keeps a class stuck in a very low tier is that there are tons of encounter types out there that they simply can't contribute to solving, I really like the idea that they have an ace in the hole that can potentially make them useful no matter what they are facing (and lets be honest, with all the different divine spells out there, plus all the crossover spells thanks to cleric domains, this ability really should allow them to come up with something helpful when they need it). Maybe Moment of Need is enough though and having a more standardized base spell list wouldn't get in the way.


Indeed.
Dabblers shouldn't top specialists at their own game (matching capabilities could be ok though).


Gotcha. Well one thing that was important to me was that when they do turn, it isn't under power compared to a cleric. I can sort of see an argument why that was the case in core, but on the whole it just didn't make sense to me. As for turns/day, I can relook at that. It could be as simple as changing it back to 3+Cha mod times/day, but still fueled by inspiration points. I'll have another look.


Dual-aura maybe?
Greater auras maybe?

Both good suggestions. Might go with one of them, or something new entirely. Also with lvl 10 currently being empty, I'm considering taking the opportunity to shuffle some things around...maybe moving impetus there and instead making a new 14th level ability.

_________

On another note, I think it may be the case that I made my base smite ability too weak by only adding Cha mod to dmg. I may end up changing that.

gabrion
2014-06-10, 05:51 AM
I'm thinking about adding a new ability at 2nd level.

The idea is that if a Paladin exhausts (or nearly exhausts) his inspiration points, any versatility he may have pretty much disappears and he's just another martial combatant, but potentially a weaker one than even some lower tier classes. So what I may do is add a threshhold of inspiration points (maybe set to Paladin level) and give the Paladin an automatic "steriod" when he's under that threshold. I'm thinking it should be something that increases with level as well, probably requiring another table. Some basic options might include:
DR and/or other defensive boosts
Move Speed
Ability score buffs
Fast Healing
Attack and/or damage buff
Maybe even spell like effects


The one danger I could see from this is "exploiting" burning through Inspiration points to get these bonuses if they are good enough. And doing so might not be a waste either, since the Paladin may have access to DMM Persist to use on (currently) any eligible Paladin or Cleric spell. So they could burn through their points Persisting things (getting nice buffs), then get a bunch more buffs when they run out of points. Of course I'm not sure this is a problem as building in such a way would be actively working against the added versatility of the class (no more healing, spells, etc.), but it could be potent.

In any case, I'd love any opinions on this and maybe suggestions of what said bonuses might look like.

toapat
2014-06-10, 10:02 AM
And don't take toapat's approach for increasing spells per encounter.
It'll totally ruin the theme you're aiming at.
For a divine champion, spells should be fallback (when martial prowess and innate features don't cut it), not the main schtick.

technically, base paladins already get 3-4 spells/encounter when rationing already, and most of them as swift actions anyway because of battle blessing, There is literally no reason not to prep every first level spell as Divine Sacrifice if you have Battleblessing and are not an ubercharger. Even running bare minimum Wis paladins will have 14 spells/day at 20, 3 of which are equivalent to 6th level spells because of how paladin spells were designed later in the system. You get some better spells from cleric casting but the fact is most of it is lower power at a higher level then paladin spellcasting, and this paladin cant even be as versatile as the normal one under any circumstance

gabrion
2014-06-10, 11:45 AM
@toapat - That response seemed more serious, so I'll give it what analysis I can.


technically, base paladins already get 3-4 spells/encounter when rationing already, and most of them as swift actions anyway because of battle blessing, There is literally no reason not to prep every first level spell as Divine Sacrifice if you have Battleblessing and are not an ubercharger. Even running bare minimum Wis paladins will have 14 spells/day at 20, 3 of which are equivalent to 6th level spells because of how paladin spells were designed later in the system. You get some better spells from cleric casting but the fact is most of it is lower power at a higher level then paladin spellcasting, and this paladin cant even be as versatile as the normal one under any circumstance

Well lets take a few different examples at different levels and look at them. Just for sake of argument we'll do level 6, 12, and 18.

6th level 3.5 Pally
Level 1 Spells: 1 per day (maybe 2/day from WIS bonus)

6th level with this rewrite
Level 1 Spells: 16 per day (if he spends all points on it)
Level 2 Spells: 1 per day, though if used, drop the number above to 14 per day

12th level 3.5 Pally
Level 1 Spells: 2 per day (with wisdom bonus)
Level 2 Spells: 2 per day (with wisdom bonus)
Level 3 Spells: 2 per day (with wisdom bonus)

12th level with this rewrite
Level 1 Spells: 6 per day
Level 2 Spells: 6 per day
Level 3 Spells: 6 per day
Level 4 Spells: 1 per day, though if used, slight reduction to the above numbers

18th level 3.5 Pally
Level 1 Spells: 5 per day
Level 2 Spells: 4 per day
Level 3 Spells: 3 per day
Level 4 Spells: 2 per day

18th level with this rewrite
Level 1 Spells: 7 per day
Level 2 Spells: 7 per day
Level 3 Spells: 7 per day
Level 4 Spells: 7 per day
Level 7 Spells: 1 per day, though if used, slight reduction to the above numbers

*Note: I didn't include 5th or 6th level spells to make a point - this is how they stack up to the 3.5 Paladin, casting the exact same spells (except casting which ever ones they want)

______

Of course some major differences exist...the numbers listed for the rewrite version are arbitrary since you cast spontaneously and can choose to spend points however you want. Obviously the 6th and 12th level core Paladin doesn't even have enough spells per day to push him through more than two encounters (and god forbid he wants to cast the same spell twice in one combat), while the rewrite does actually limit what he casts in any encounter (though again, he chooses what to cast spontaneously and isn't locked into specific spells or even specific levels), but gives staying power through many encounters if that's what he faces.

A few other things to note:
1) Since you keep emphasizing how much better Paladin spells are (a 4th level is the equivalent of 6th level cleric spell), keep in mind this Paladin has all those spells too.
2) This rewrite allows you to focus on your casting stat way more than the 3.5 version
3) Besides having way more spells (if they want to), they can also augment that with spells up to 7th level, from a much wider list.
4) Battle Blessing works just as well for this rewrite...better in fact since they have more spells.

toapat
2014-06-10, 01:10 PM
@toapat - That response seemed more serious, so I'll give it what analysis I can.

Your entire Analysis is incorrect, because you are using houserules instead of the rules you wrote for your own paladin. Prepared spells are expended on casting which you didnt override, this gives you a definite and finite number of spells.

Even if you wanted such your numbers are incorrect because the cap per encounter is so low that at any given encounter you can only expend upto 2 spells. This isnt really any different then the 3.5 paladin if only because combat shouldnt be long enough to allow for paladins to burn more then 2 spells/encounter.

The actual mechanic you want is Unique Spells per day, at which point you only need a finite cap of about 10

Most cleric 6th spells are not actually worth gaining, you are just muddying the list without adding more beyond maybe Visage of the Diety

gabrion
2014-06-10, 01:35 PM
Your entire Analysis is incorrect, because you are using houserules instead of the rules you wrote for your own paladin. Prepared spells are expended on casting which you didnt override, this gives you a definite and finite number of spells.

Gotcha...you noticed a problem in how I worded things from the get go, but didn't feel like pointing it out till now (though it was pretty clear what the intent was). Either way, thanks for pointing this out, I can fix the wording of how spells work to make it match.


Even if you wanted such your numbers are incorrect because the cap per encounter is so low that at any given encounter you can only expend upto 2 spells. This isnt really any different then the 3.5 paladin if only because combat shouldnt be long enough to allow for paladins to burn more then 2 spells/encounter.

Nope, even in the example above the 6th level paladin will be casting 4 level 1 spells/encounter to the 1 or 2/day of the SRD Paladin. It's way different from the SRD Paladin given they can't even cast one spell of each level each encounter (no where near).


The actual mechanic you want is Unique Spells per day, at which point you only need a finite cap of about 10

Given the above, I'm actually pretty sure you know exactly what you mean by this, but I honestly don't. Would you be willing to explain this line?


Most cleric 6th spells are not actually worth gaining, you are just muddying the list without adding more beyond maybe Visage of the Diety

If you don't want them, don't cast them. You're still better off than SRD Paladin. And it's really hard to take seriously an argument that having access to 6th level cleric spells (and all divine 7th level spells) isn't better than not having them.

The whole point is that those spells get pretty expensive to cast, while staples like Divine Favor (cast through battle blessing of course) are cheap. So is this version going to try to play like a cleric? NO. Is it going to be useful for him to be able to cast Legend Lore, Antimagic Field, or Greater Teleport (just to name a few out of core)? Well lets just say I'd rather have that Paladin on my team than the SRD one...

toapat
2014-06-10, 03:23 PM
Gotcha...you noticed a problem in how I worded things from the get go, but didn't feel like pointing it out till now (though it was pretty clear what the intent was). Either way, thanks for pointing this out, I can fix the wording of how spells work to make it match.



Nope, even in the example above the 6th level paladin will be casting 4 level 1 spells/encounter to the 1 or 2/day of the SRD Paladin. It's way different from the SRD Paladin given they can't even cast one spell of each level each encounter (no where near).



Given the above, I'm actually pretty sure you know exactly what you mean by this, but I honestly don't. Would you be willing to explain this line?



If you don't want them, don't cast them. You're still better off than SRD Paladin. And it's really hard to take seriously an argument that having access to 6th level cleric spells (and all divine 7th level spells) isn't better than not having them.

The whole point is that those spells get pretty expensive to cast, while staples like Divine Favor (cast through battle blessing of course) are cheap. So is this version going to try to play like a cleric? NO. Is it going to be useful for him to be able to cast Legend Lore, Antimagic Field, or Greater Teleport (just to name a few out of core)? Well lets just say I'd rather have that Paladin on my team than the SRD one...

1: Paladin spell levels dont scale like that. You cast 1 first level spell each encounter if you are spec'd for charging, the rest are spent on persisting ever other buff you have thats worth while. Clerics dont get anything notable that doesnt replicate functionality innate to paladin. Alternatively there is Haste which you dont have access to.

2: There is no simple way to explain it, but your intended mechanic is Unique spells per day. 11 spells prepared means you have 11 spells you can cast. Not 11 unique spells prepared at a given time.

3: You have an extremely low cap of investment for casting, way too low for the numbers you think you are using. As i said you limited to ~2/encounter. 4 encounters/day is the assumption in the rules. The normal paladin can reasonably be expected to be able to invest upto 4/encounter with reason but Shouldnt because encounters shouldnt last that long.

4: Your mechanic isnt really useful anyway because Paladin spellcasting is about buffs, not blasts, BFC, or heals. DMM persist is way more useful. Bards and Psi-wars have the same casting and their only offense comes from No Saves just sucks when it comes to magic. Clerics have the least of those

nonsi
2014-06-10, 04:51 PM
"Prepared" / "retrieved" / "attuned" - this is purely semantics.

But yes. To prevent questions and arguments, this should be specifically stated.
Maybe "prepared" is not the best term, given people already associate it with the core description of the Vancian mechanics.

gabrion
2014-06-14, 09:19 AM
"Prepared" / "retrieved" / "attuned" - this is purely semantics.

But yes. To prevent questions and arguments, this should be specifically stated.
Maybe "prepared" is not the best term, given people already associate it with the core description of the Vancian mechanics.

Been a little busy lately, but finally got around to fixing this (I hope). I got rid of the term "prepared" and instead it says the Paladin "selects" spells and those spells become his spell list for the day. Then it says he casts them spontaneously. I hope that's clear, but if I've still missed something, let me know.

Thanks again for all the feedback.

Realms of Chaos
2014-06-14, 01:22 PM
The problem with attempting to fix the paladin is that the paladin is pretty much the only PHB class in existence (other than arguably the ranger with the wildshape ranger and hunter's mercy spell) that actually HAS been fixed by other sources.

If you look through all of the alternate class features (including those of dragon magazine) and the spells that every single source has produced, you can come up with a VERY competent paladin. Unfortunately, because all of those components work off of the paladin 'as it is', making just about any change to the paladin risks weakening it. Here are a few of the more popular examples in fixes.

You want to grant a "turn-undead"-like ability that does more? You just lost access to every ACF that trades in Turn Undead.
The paladin has been weakened.

You want to keep the turn undead but grant it at first level? You just lost access to every ACF that specifically trades in Turn Undead at 4th level (read: all of them).
The paladin has been weakened

You want to give the paladin bardic spell progression off of the cleric list? You just lost the dozens of specific buffs produce specifically for paladins.
The paladin has been weakened

You want to grant smites per encounter? All references in prerequisites to uses of smites per day are no longer available.
The paladin has been weakened.

If you haven't seen what an unfixed paladin is capable of, allow me to provide a link (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376).

With that said, I vehemently disagree with toapat that these types of changes "ruin" the paladin or otherwise aren't fixes:

While supplement diving for unique feats, ACFs, and so forth is considered a core part of DND by some, I consider a centralization of what a class is to be a good thing. Even if this type of fix may restrict raw power, which may be viewed as a cardinal sin in a class that hasn't reached tier 2, it saves a lot of effort and cross-referencing and lowers the learning curve for optimization tremendously while maintaining tier 3 status. This particular paladin fix also seems to create more versatility in play, which I consider more valuable than versatility in build.

As such, I consider this fix to be quite wonderful, consolidating the class into a nice and easily accessible tier 3 bundle. You seem to have met all four of your main goals admirably (while others may say that Sword of Celestia is an iconic ability that you do not have hear, the ability was only in a dragon magazine so I feel it is somewhat less than "core" to the paladin experience). If it means that paladins deal less damage when charging with a lance on horseback, I have no problem with that all all.

toapat
2014-06-14, 08:02 PM
With that said, I vehemently disagree with toapat that these types of changes "ruin" the paladin or otherwise aren't fixes:

Context: When i posted i was eviscerating the class for only reducing power despite being intended to help. Cleric casting still wont help the class but the rest hes fixed barring the stupid fixed limit expenditures

Realms of Chaos
2014-06-14, 11:41 PM
Context: When i posted i was eviscerating the class for only reducing power despite being intended to help. Cleric casting still wont help the class but the rest hes fixed barring the stupid fixed limit expenditures

Apologies for the lack of context consideration on my part. I probably didn't see the original version and may have actually agreed with you on one or two points if I had (and I agree that the 2 spells/encounter thing is silly). I guess that I didn't really interpret the fix as (primarily) an attempt to increase the power of the paladin, even though the goals of increasing the spellcasting list and raising to tier 3 do indeed imply that a power bump was the intention.

nonsi
2014-06-15, 12:38 AM
Given it's a no-brainer, may I suggest adding battle blessing anywhere between levels 6 and 12?

gabrion
2014-06-15, 04:01 PM
The problem with attempting to fix the paladin is that the paladin is pretty much the only PHB class in existence (other than arguably the ranger with the wildshape ranger and hunter's mercy spell) that actually HAS been fixed by other sources.

If you look through all of the alternate class features (including those of dragon magazine) and the spells that every single source has produced, you can come up with a VERY competent paladin. Unfortunately, because all of those components work off of the paladin 'as it is', making just about any change to the paladin risks weakening it. Here are a few of the more popular examples in fixes.

You want to grant a "turn-undead"-like ability that does more? You just lost access to every ACF that trades in Turn Undead.
The paladin has been weakened.

You want to keep the turn undead but grant it at first level? You just lost access to every ACF that specifically trades in Turn Undead at 4th level (read: all of them).
The paladin has been weakened

You want to give the paladin bardic spell progression off of the cleric list? You just lost the dozens of specific buffs produce specifically for paladins.
The paladin has been weakened

You want to grant smites per encounter? All references in prerequisites to uses of smites per day are no longer available.
The paladin has been weakened.

If you haven't seen what an unfixed paladin is capable of, allow me to provide a link (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376).

Yes I totally agree. I think I'm fairly satisfied with it at this point (minus maybe adjusting some of the use/encounter numbers), but if there's any "heavy lifting" still to be done, it's making the class more "transparent" if you will. By which I mean spelling out, even heavy-handedly if necessary, that it can work with other content. Like you said, tons of content was printed throughout the life of 3.5 that helped the Paladin a lot, so creating a homebrew rewrite has the disadvantage of potentially locking out many options. It isn't as big of a deal if the replacement is viable from start to finish, but still causes a problem by limiting its ability to be used with other material.


While supplement diving for unique feats, ACFs, and so forth is considered a core part of DND by some, I consider a centralization of what a class is to be a good thing. Even if this type of fix may restrict raw power, which may be viewed as a cardinal sin in a class that hasn't reached tier 2, it saves a lot of effort and cross-referencing and lowers the learning curve for optimization tremendously while maintaining tier 3 status. This particular paladin fix also seems to create more versatility in play, which I consider more valuable than versatility in build.

As such, I consider this fix to be quite wonderful, consolidating the class into a nice and easily accessible tier 3 bundle. You seem to have met all four of your main goals admirably (while others may say that Sword of Celestia is an iconic ability that you do not have hear, the ability was only in a dragon magazine so I feel it is somewhat less than "core" to the paladin experience). If it means that paladins deal less damage when charging with a lance on horseback, I have no problem with that all all.

Thank you for that feedback. I do like to think the class would work nicely from 1 to 20 and it does offer some versatility from the 3.5 core Paladin. Like I said though, my next step will be working on expanding at least some of the options to work with ACFs, Prestige Classes, and other things that relied on core Paladin mechanics. I guess I see the best of both worlds as having something that works well on its own, but also offers the choice to dive through supplements to play it how you want if that's your thing.


Context: When i posted i was eviscerating the class for only reducing power despite being intended to help. Cleric casting still wont help the class but the rest hes fixed barring the stupid fixed limit expenditures

Yup there was a pretty big wording problem with how spells worked and I see now that it led you to think they were much more limited than they actually are. Hopefully the wording now makes it more clear, but if there's still a problem let me know.

And I am taking another look at some of the numbers related to capping expenditure of points per encounter. For instance, turn undead is back to a cap on uses per day, but not per encounter (so if someone wants to build for DMM Persist, they can spend those points as they wish). I know the big one is the cap on points spent for spellcasting per encounter, but I'm still weighing that.


Given it's a no-brainer, may I suggest adding battle blessing anywhere between levels 6 and 12?

I honestly don't think I will add this for free. The casting is already improved some, but if the Paladin wants to be even more effective in that regard, they should by all means pick up that feat. Granting it for free doesn't seem right for some reason. If I were going to do that, I might as well just add a line in the spellcasting section modifying the way they cast (making it faster for spells with standard action or full round action casting times).

toapat
2014-06-15, 08:00 PM
Yup there was a pretty big wording problem with how spells worked and I see now that it led you to think they were much more limited than they actually are. Hopefully the wording now makes it more clear, but if there's still a problem let me know.

the wording on the Divine Cleansing clause needs to be scrubbed down, but at least everything that doesnt work as intended is cleaned up.

You want "This ability is treated as turn undead for prerequisites" Theres alot of wording needed to actually make it fully function as a proper turn undead but i dont know the wording for how to make Rebuke/Control Deathless