View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class The start of a paladin fix [3.5]

Teapot Salty
2014-06-22, 12:02 AM
Hey guys. So, I'm working on a paladin fix, trying to make them less top heavy/mad. I'm thinking of making spellcasting charisma based, or everything wisdom base, not sure. Among other things. Any help coming up with mid-late game abilities is much appreciated, and for now, this is what I've done to smite:

At the beginning of his turn, a paladin may chose to smite evil during that round. If he so chooses, all attacks he makes in that round gain a unnamed bonus to attack rolls equal to the paladin's charisma (or wisdom?) modifier, and a bonus to damage rolls equal to his paladin level. Any attacks made in that round against anything with the evil alignment instead do an additional three points of damage per paladin level. A paladin may sacrifice some of this damage to do the fallowing effects:

A paladin may sacrifice 3 damage from a smite attack to sicken a target (Fortitude dc 10+paladin level+cha modifier negates)

A paladin may sacrifice 6 damage from a smite attack to dispel an enchantment of the target of his choice (will dc 10+paladin level+cha modifier negates)

A paladin my sacrifice 12 damage from a smite attack to stun the target (fortitude dc 10+paladin level+cha modifier negates)

A paladin may sacrifice 30 damage from a smite attack to dismiss an outsider back to it's home plane (will dc 10+paladin level+cha modifier negates)

A paladin may sacrifice 36 damage from his smite to force an evil creature who is at half hitpoints or below to make a fortitude save (dc 10+paladin level+paladin cha modifier) or be slain instantly. This ability may only be used a number of time per encounter equal to the paladin's charisma modifier.

Smite is now used in increments of per encounter, and you gain an additional smite attempt every odd level.

At 6th level, a paladin may use his charisma score in place of his constitution score for the purpose of determining extra hp from hit dice.

At 10th level, a paladin's mount may make smite attacks a number of times per encounter equal to the paladin's charisma modifier.

So help and a bit of evaluation, thanks and as always, go nuts.

2014-06-22, 02:31 AM
Sicken strikes me as a little cheap, dismissal as a little expensive. How often is the smite usable? Sticking with the basic chart for uses per day? I'd recommend against the unnamed bonuses. A sacred bonus or competence bonus would be appropriate, and helps prevent stacking to balance-smashing levels.

Also, I'm a little unclear about the application of dispelling enchantments. Typically you dispel enchantments because they've been cast on someone who should be on your side, and the enchantment is subverting him over to the bad guy's side. However, whacking your friend rather fiercely with a four-foot razor blade doesn't strike me as the kind of thing he'd thank you for.

What did you mean by "top-heavy"?

Andion Isurand
2014-06-22, 03:35 AM
I would keep the paladin's spellcasting Wisdom-based...
...but make a feat that allows a paladin to use their charisma score for spellcasting instead.

You already have the Serenity feat out there that makes it so your Charisma-based paladin abilities use your wisdom score instead.

This way, while the average paladin's abilities are divided between charisma and wisdom...
...a character can take one of two feats that will turn one of those scores into a proverbial dump stat.

Plus you wouldn't be making it harder on half-orcs, dwarves and krinth who want to be paladins (of honor, freedom, tyranny or slaughter).

If you're considering making adjustments to paladin spellcasting (http://magerune.blogspot.com/2014/06/paladin-spellcasting.html), I've seen a few others make adjustments like these for their own paladins, and recently decided to adopt a similar set up.

Killer Angel
2014-06-22, 05:09 AM
This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?235170-How-to-improve-your-3-5-Paladin-with-4-(or-5)-easy-house-rules-(peach)) was my basic "quick and dirty" fix of the paladin.

Feel free to use whatever may help you. :smallwink:

2014-06-22, 06:27 AM
...Also, I'm a little unclear about the application of dispelling enchantments...
...What did you mean by "top-heavy"?

My assumption is that the dispelling enchantments (magic effects) option for smiting was to de-buff enemy targets. If this is the case, I'd recommend making it work more like a Dispel Magic effect based on the Paladin's (class) level.

I think top-heavy refers to the fact that most of a Paladin's interesting class features are bestowed in the first six levels, after which they simply get more uses per day and more spells. I guess Smiting does more damage at higher levels too, but over all it gives the Player less to look forward to than some other classes where you get completely new class features at higher levels.

Much like for the Monk, I'd recommend looking at Pathfinder's version of the Paladin for inspiration (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin). It makes Smite better by allowing it to work on every attack versus a designated target and granting a deflection bonus to AC, and makes the Lay on Hands ability much better by restoring more HP and allowing the Paladin to heal himself/herself as a swift action. The Mercy ability it mentions is similar to your improvements to Smite at higher levels except it removes status effects through the use of Lay on Hands (which is essentially an improvement on the Remove Disease class feature).

...Actually the Paladin gets so much better in Pathfinder, I don't think it should be allowed alongside the other 3.5 base classes. Maybe allowing Smite to be used more times per day (with a cool-down that decreases as the Paladin gains levels) would be a good to include. I do like the Mercy ability though, and think something like that might be good to include.

[Edit] I just saw Canaar's suggestion in Killer Angel's link which was to give Smite Evil a Save or Die effect, which I rather like to make Smite Evil a finishing blow. Maybe it could be based on the Disintegrate Spell, death by massive damage rules, and/or a Fortitude Save (DC = 10 + Paladin LV/2 + Charisma Mod)... OR it requires a Fort Save (DC = 10 + Paladin LV + Cha Mod) but only if the evil creature is below 1/2 its maximum health (or maybe 1/4 max HP). This would allow the Paladin to affect even very large enemies like dragons with some level of success.