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View Full Version : [Feat] Soften 'em up then hammer it home

Peregrine
2007-02-24, 11:07 AM
Repeating Blows
By striking an opponent repeatedly on the same spot in quick succession, you can really make them feel it.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: When using the full attack action, after successfully dealing damage to an opponent (including damage negated by damage reduction), you may take a -2 penalty to any subsequent attacks in your full attack against the same opponent. Any damage from these attacks is treated as cumulative with the first for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction and dealing massive damage.

Analysis: This one is meant to be more useful to two-weapon fighters, giving them a bit of a leg-up against tough enemies. I'd like to find a way to drop the penalty, actually, as I think they could handle it without being too strong, but it just doesn't seem to fit the flavour right. (I'm not entirely sure I'm happy with the name, just for the record.)

jlousivy
2007-02-24, 01:08 PM
Question: does this grant you more attacks than normal?
ie: bab 7, twf and imp twf = 4 attacks
5/5/0/0 (main/off/main/off)
say bob hits first so he can take a -2 on his 2nd attack? and he hits again, and agian and again so is his +to hit on all of those
5/3/1/-1?
OR bob has 5/5/0/0 and he hits with his first attack, and then keeps hitting 3 more times with his main hand then misses on a 4th.
5/3/1/-1 <-- all from the 'first attack'

basicly it just needs a little better wording, but in any case if it does allow more attacks than the bab/twf feats grant... no...

Personally i'd alter it where you get a +1 (cumulative) to hit for each attack that hits in a full attack action

Peregrine
2007-02-24, 01:20 PM
Question: does this grant you more attacks than normal?

No... why would it? It applies "to any subsequent attacks in your full attack". It doesn't change the number of attacks in your full attack; it doesn't imply it anywhere that I can see. And I'm not sure why you think it should add to the bonus to hit...

Your numbers are-- wait, I get it now. You think that each attack is made at -2 lower than the last? No. Each attack is made at its own normal attack bonus, but with a -2 penalty for trying to hit the same spot again.

Hey, I just remembered something I wanted to specify; if the opponent moves at all during your full attack (unusual but possible), you can't benefit from this feat. Bah, I'll edit it in tomorrow, unless anyone can tell me why not.

jlousivy
2007-02-24, 01:23 PM
So... 5/5/3/3? if one of the first 2 hit? i like that however i doubt that's what you are saying because then at lvl 20 the same fighter has
however 18/18/13/13/8/8/3-> 18/18/16/16/16/16 (all asuming light off-hand)

as for the added bonus to hit, i see it like you hit once, the second time they are still a bit shaken by the effects so you can hit easier. For example: Joe has 3 attacks 11/6/1. He hits on the first attack(11) he swings again and the orc is less able to defend himself against the successive blows, he makes his second attack at a +7, he hits, the same effect and then joe makes his 3rd attack at +3. However if an attack misses- the +to hit from cumulative strikes is re-set to 0

Peregrine
2007-02-24, 02:02 PM
No... from 5/5/0/0, if the first one hits, you can make your attack routine 5/3/-1/-1.

It's not about making them reel from the blow so they're easier to hit second time. It's about hitting the same spot so that the damage stacks up and punches through DR.

On that theme, let's do some analysis to see if this is really any use. Let's compare a BAB +6 TWF fighter (longsword and shortsword) with a BAB +6 THF fighter (greatsword). Assuming all other attack bonuses are equal, we can just look at their respective BABs, +6/+6/+1 vs +6/+1, to determine the number of attacks.

If they hit with all attacks, the TWFer can do:
2d8+1d6+2x(longsword damage bonus)+(shortsword damage bonus)+2.5x(Str bonus)

The THFer can do:
2d12+2x(greatsword damage bonus)+3x(Str bonus)

Let's get some of these bonuses in there... we'll say they have Weapon Specialization (longsword only for the TWFer), and that the weapons are a +2 greatsword, a +1 longsword, and a +1 shortsword (this leaves the TWFer some 4,000gp ahead; she could have a +2 longsword instead, putting her 2,000gp behind). Say Str of 16 for each, which is a bit generous to the TWFer who also needs high Dex (but she could be a ranger instead).

The TWFer does total mean damage of 26.5, while the THFer gets 30.5 (calculations done in my head and may be quite wrong). The TWFer is losing out, as people say is normal. She loses out even more if their enemies have DR, though, as it applies three times to her total but only twice to the THFer.

DR 5 -> 11.5 vs 20.5
DR 10 -> no damage vs 10.5

That's where this feat comes in. With it, the DR applies only once against all attacks:

DR 5 -> 21.5 vs 25.5
DR 10 -> 16.5 vs 20.5

It should be more favourable for a higher-level TWFer who gets more attacks. Of course, they're less likely to connect, which I haven't yet accounted for. Nor have I looked into power attack. Basically I haven't ungimped TWF, but I think I might have helped, a bit.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-24, 02:09 PM
I do like the feat, although the name is a little.. off. I do like the mental image of a dual-wielder striking an opponent in the same place multiple times. It becomes an even better mental image when you make the dual-wielder a monk with high ranks in Tumble.

:smallbiggrin:

jlousivy
2007-02-24, 02:11 PM
Ahhh i need to start reading better--- i definitely didn't pay attention close enough when it came to 'massive damage or DR'.

now that i've 'hopefully' became less of an idiot, i'd like to say that this is a great feat, it not only helps the twf people but melee in general to overcome DR against some of the high CR foes that already outclass most melee classes. A+. However I'd still put in a clause that only successive attacks work. Like if you make 5 attacks and the first 2 hit, 3rd misses, and the 4th and 5th hit--- the first 2 count as one attack and the last 2 count as one attack.

Peregrine
2007-02-24, 02:27 PM
I do like the feat, although the name is a little.. off.

I know. Ideas?

However I'd still put in a clause that only successive attacks work. Like if you make 5 attacks and the first 2 hit, 3rd misses, and the 4th and 5th hit--- the first 2 count as one attack and the last 2 count as one attack.

I thought about that, but decided that it didn't really need to be that gimped. As long as the attacks come in the same full attack, I was happy to let them all count together.

nivek1234
2007-02-24, 04:08 PM
How powerful do you think it would be to remove the -2 penalty if attacking with two weapons?

Closet_Skeleton
2007-02-24, 06:07 PM
How powerful do you think it would be to remove the -2 penalty if attacking with two weapons?

The equivelant of 4 levels in Tempest, Complete Adventurerer page 81.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-24, 06:15 PM
The equivelant of 4 levels in Tempest, Complete Adventurerer page 81.

The -2 penalty for using this feat, not for wielding two weapons in general.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-02-24, 06:30 PM
The -2 penalty for using this feat, not for wielding two weapons in general.

Ah.

Okay. He wasn't that clear but I'll assume you're right.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-02-24, 06:35 PM
How about Crescendo Blows, or Precision Strikes?
ETA: Damn good idea, by the way.

Fako
2007-02-24, 06:38 PM
I know. Ideas?

Well, the word "Tenderize" comes to mind.

nivek1234
2007-02-24, 08:01 PM
The -2 penalty for using this feat, not for wielding two weapons in general.

Correct, sorry if I was unclear. I know that not having an additional -2 to attacks would be a very strong incentive for TWF to take this feat; I'm just not sure where that would put the feat on the balance scale.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-24, 11:33 PM
A feat to allow all attacks in a round become only one for massive damage and damage redution. Sounds cool to me. Kinda reminds me of the "combo" rules from that StreetFighter game from WhiteWolf, that allowed you to combine all the damage to see if you could stun the enemy.
You need to apply the -2 to the first attack?

Peregrine
2007-02-25, 02:11 AM
Thanks for the positives, guys!

You need to apply the -2 to the first attack?

Nope. The first hit can land anywhere, really. The later hits have to be aimed at the same spot, hence the penalty. I don't think it would be broken without the penalty, but I have trouble losing it, for flavour reasons.

(There is the question of whether, if the first hit is a critical hit, or even a threat, does 'aiming at the same spot' up your chances of a critical? But this isn't something the D&D rules really handle well, so I've just avoided the question and left the feat simple.)

Peregrine
2007-02-25, 11:10 AM
*bing!*

I have it. :smallbiggrin:

Repeat Attack
You are a master of the precise movements of your muscles, and can repeat your own actions to a high degree of accuracy. This makes it easier for you to make a second blow connect after a first one does so.

Prerequisites: Dex 15, base attack bonus +11 [I'm open to change here]

Benefits: When using the full attack action, if one attack is successful, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the next attack in the action (if any), to strike in the same way again. This attack must be of the same sort as the first, such as an attack with a weapon (although it need not be the same weapon, nor must you deal damage to benefit from the feat), a trip, a grapple, or a touch or ranged touch attack with a spell.

If this attack is also successful, the benefits continue to the third attack (if any), and so on until you run out of attacks or one fails to strike your opponent. The bonus is not cumulative; it grants the same +2 each time.

If you make a successful critical hit, the threat range of your weapon is doubled for the next attack. This stacks with any other effects modifying the critical threat range of a weapon.

Special: This counteracts the penalty from the <whatever I call the original one above> feat, as long as your attacks continue to connect.

Again, not positive on the name, although it fits this better than did the similar name I gave to the first, for which I might well adopt ExHunterEmerald's Crescendo Blows.

Triaxx
2007-02-25, 01:15 PM
I'd say merely stipulate that if the fighter has Two weapon, and improved two weapon, that the penalty is negated. This wouldn't apply to rangers unless they actually take the feat.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-25, 01:52 PM
A bonus to attack, I see. Hmm... say, do you have Sword & Fist? The gladiator PrC has a 10th level ability that you may want to see.
Every time he hits an enemy, he gains a cumulative +2 morale bonus to his next damage roll, as long he hits the same enemy. If he misses any attack, or change enemies, the bonus is reseted to 0.
Maybe it's something like that that you want?

And "Repeating blows" could sound good.

Peregrine
2007-02-25, 07:30 PM
Every time he hits an enemy, he gains a cumulative +2 morale bonus to his next damage roll, as long he hits the same enemy. If he misses any attack, or change enemies, the bonus is reseted to 0.
Maybe it's something like that that you want?

Hmm, no... the idea of Repeat Attack is to negate the penalty of (what's currently called) Repeating Blows, while also offering another benefit to make it stand better as a feat of its own. I haven't done any analysis on it yet, though, to see how much it ups your damage in practice.

I should make it specify that if you made an attack roll for a non-damaging attack type (like a grapple or trip; or non-weapon attacks for that matter, like spells), you can apply the feat, but only to the same attack type again.