Fixing the Artifice [rules][PEACH]

[Raveler1]

Hello, forum readers.

I'm trying to improve the artifice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2063844&postcount=18) rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2063876&postcount=19) that I've stolen from OGL: Ancients. I attempted a sample of how they'd work (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2080279&postcount=20), and the time to complete the project struck me as very inconsistent with how the checks were supposed to work. I've started this new thread because it is unlikely that this specific issue will be addressed in the main campaign setting thread I've posted. Any assistance with this rule set would be greatly appreciated, as I really want to have artificers within the game world I'm constructing.

[Maerok]

Is there any synergy between Eberron Artificers and your artifice system (which looks really neat by the way)? I like this system and it explains how all those ancient machines 'o doom you'll eventually come across in one campaign or another were built in the first place and such were built in the first place, and how a maniacal PC can make one for themself. I'd definitely make some kind of uber siege machine. I'm going to use this eventually, probably as a DM first though.:smallamused:

[Raveler1]

I'm not familiar with the Eberron system - this one is taken from OGL: Ancients, mainly because I enjoyed the flavor of everything immensely, and it seemed to offer distinct rules for creation of massive equipment, as you mention. However, I'm not happy with the time it takes to build these creations, but otherwise I like the rules.

What are the Eberron artifice rules? I'd be interested in comparing notes, perhaps combining the two.

[Maerok]

There's just an Artificer class, which gets spells which sort of work like temporary enchantments for items (bull's strength -> a belt, rather than directly to a person). However, it works as normal (to more or less a degree) for constructs, where you can directly cast the spells onto them. Except the spells are called infusions. They also get a progression of item creation feats and an XP bank for creating items. I think they are in Player's Guide to Eberron (not an Eberron player myself, but I was curious of the class).

Perhaps add an 'aid another' feature to break down the time, a la assembly line. It might take one dwarf a long time to build a monstrosity, but how long would it take one million? Be the Henry Ford of steampunk!

[Inyssius Tor]

No, they're in the Campaign Setting.

[Raveler1]

*snip*
Perhaps add an 'aid another' feature to break down the time, a la assembly line. It might take one dwarf a long time to build a monstrosity, but how long would it take one million? Be the Henry Ford of steampunk!

Well, this system does allow multiple crafters to take checks on the same thing. So, in my example, if Daedalus had had help from Icarus (a lower-level artificer), he could have had three checks per week from his work, and Icarus' 2 checks per week would have been added in as well. It still seems like it takes an ungodly amount of time, though. I mean, 11 years, to build a pair of wings? As a maxed out artificer? But maybe that's what happens when you're locked in a tower somewhere.

[Maerok]

Well assuming he's done his research, I think he could build them in a month or so. Especially if he's locked in a tower all day (though where is 44k in supplies going to come from :smalltongue:)...

11 years *12 months = 132 months
My estimate = 2 months (or 3-4, at the most I would say)

Divide any time estimates (in months) by 66?


It looks like its going to be tough to tweak a complex system like this.

[hr]
Edit:
I've come up with some options to help lower time:

-Reduce the cost of CP from 500 gp, or make it scale for difficulty/size/material. (CP of the wings costs 100 gp/pt; CP of a doom-tank costs 1000 gp/pt)
This is probably the easiest to implement and could dramatically affect the time/cost.

-Decrease the Craft DC.

-Skimp on the CP when designing. (More for the person using the system)

-Don't take 10, but take a risk for a higher outcome. (More for the person using the system)

-Extensive use of aid another. Use those thousands of commoners from the lightspeed-hand-off trick.
I think this makes the most sense. I would think that any designer wouldn't be doing the building alone.

-Maybe not just aid another, but each additional worker gets an entire craft check rather than just being able to add another. So if Daedalus and Icarus were working together, that's 4-6 craft checks/week (depending on Icarus), each with someone using the aid another action. Individual pieces of the frame, etc. are being built and then get put together at the end of the construction.
This could work as well.

-Make it easier to create smaller complex machines, such as nerfing that -6 craft penalty on the wings (also note that a Tiny creature should be able to work with smaller pieces with more ease than a Medium one; but have more trouble with larger ones).

-Bonuses due to laboratory/factory conditions, if any.

-Prior experience bonuses; you get to learn from past mistakes to streamline your processes. Veterans on your building team help out even more.

-Craft (schematics/blueprints) check to create better, more thorough plans which let you build quickly. Or an Int bonus/check to be more efficient in creating the devices.

-Extra craft checks per week. Once per day, but cannot take any other actions but eat/sleep.

Edit 2: By the way, what is OGL: Ancients?

[Raveler1]

Well assuming he's done his research, I think he could build them in a month or so. Especially if he's locked in a tower all day (though where is 44k in supplies going to come from :smalltongue:)...

11 years *12 months = 132 months
My estimate = 2 months (or 3-4, at the most I would say)

Divide any time estimates (in months) by 66?


I had estimated beforehand that it might take him about 2 years, or so. He could very well be locked in that tower for that length of time - it would explain why Icarus was so unwilling to assist him, and also would explain the dedication to escape. I think I've been able to get it to this level with some of your later suggestions, though, since simply cutting the time increases the number of checks per week, and really breaks the craft check mechanic.



-Reduce the cost of CP from 500 gp, or make it scale for difficulty/size/material. (CP of the wings costs 100 gp/pt; CP of a doom-tank costs 1000 gp/pt)
This is probably the easiest to implement and could dramatically affect the time/cost.

This suggestion makes the most sense to me - and I slapped myself on the forehead for not thinking of it. If we reduce the wings to 100 gp/CP, the total time required becomes 1/5 of the 11 years, or about 2.2 years - exactly what I wanted to target. I can't believe I didn't think of this before.


-Decrease the Craft DC.
Decreasing the craft DC would actually make it take longer, since the higher craft DCs increase the amount of work done per check.


-Skimp on the CP when designing. (More for the person using the system)

-Don't take 10, but take a risk for a higher outcome. (More for the person using the system)

These are great suggestions, but the mechanic itself is still flawed if this is all that is done. For my example, I didn't want to roll thousands of d20s, but during an adventure, I could see someone making these checks throughout their weeks of work.


-Extensive use of aid another. Use those thousands of commoners from the lightspeed-hand-off trick.
I think this makes the most sense. I would think that any designer wouldn't be doing the building alone.

-Maybe not just aid another, but each additional worker gets an entire craft check rather than just being able to add another. So if Daedalus and Icarus were working together, that's 4-6 craft checks/week (depending on Icarus), each with someone using the aid another action. Individual pieces of the frame, etc. are being built and then get put together at the end of the construction.
This could work as well.

This does help, of course, but the point here is that Daedalus is an experienced artificer, and should be good at completing machines. Unskilled labor would have to use the aid-another mechanic, which only goes so far. And I doubt Daedalus could find an army of peasants to help him when he's locked in a tower.


-Make it easier to create smaller complex machines, such as nerfing that -6 craft penalty on the wings (also note that a Tiny creature should be able to work with smaller pieces with more ease than a Medium one; but have more trouble with larger ones).

The -6 penalty is for medium sized creatures, since the technology of the ancient world doesn't really favor miniaturization. I would encourage others who use this rule set in the middle ages to nerf this down to -4, or -2 for Rennaisance tech. I like your suggestion about scaling it for other sized creatures - my view has been medium-sized-centric, since all players in my campaign will be human.


-Bonuses due to laboratory/factory conditions, if any.

-Prior experience bonuses; you get to learn from past mistakes to streamline your processes. Veterans on your building team help out even more.

-Craft (schematics/blueprints) check to create better, more thorough plans which let you build quickly. Or an Int bonus/check to be more efficient in creating the devices.

I like the lab/fac conditions bonus - it makes sense that an artificer who sets up a factory for his work would do better work there. Maybe a +1 circumstance bonus for every month spent working on the same project in the same location, up to a max of +3, and a +4 bonus for working in a prepared laboratory/factory environment.

Int bonus already applies to craft checks, since they're an Int based skill. And creating blueprints is kind of what the player is doing when determining their CT - but I could see where blueprints would aid construction by multiple artificers. Say, Craft (Blueprint), which then allows artificers to take a +2 bonus to their Craft checks.


-Extra craft checks per week. Once per day, but cannot take any other actions but eat/sleep.

Edit 2: By the way, what is OGL: Ancients?

Extra checks per week seem a weaseling out mechanic fix - especially as Artificers already gain multiple checks per week (2 checks/week at 1st level, 3 at 5th, and 4 at 10th - I assumed Daedalus was a 6 Smart/9 Artificer)

OGL: Ancients is a book by Mongoose Publishing (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpg/detail.php?qsID=347&qsSeries=3) that uses the Open Game License for its material. It mainly covers the ancient Greeks and Egyptians, providing rules for mytho-historical roleplaying. It's not the greatest book in the world, but it does have a great number of interesting mechanics and ideas that I borrowed for my campaign world. Since it's OGL, its permissable to steal and modify, but I like to cite my sources.

Edit: Unrelated, but: Yay! I finally made Halfling in the Playground!

[Maerok]

Are you going to edit your rules/example posts? That is something I'd definitely use in the future. Muahaha. I keep getting the image of a Phyrexian Gargantua (M:tG) in my head.

[Raveler1]

Yes, I will update the original thread... I'm just waiting for anyone else to make suggestions or comments.

:: stares deep into the reader's soul ::

[Raveler1]

Original thread updated, but I welcome any more suggestions!