View Full Version : Instead of turn/rebuke undead....

2007-02-25, 07:11 PM
I don't like the fact that every fricking god grants it's clerics turn or rebuke undead. I am homebrewing a pantheon of gods and most of them don't really have anything with undead, so I decided the cleric class just gave 'attempts' and the way you can spend these depends on your god: every god grants something 'special' to his/her clerics. Done that, but I've no idea of some of them are totally worthless or horribly cheesy. My players are not really that into optimizing, but I'd like it if it's at least somewhat balanced. Wouldn't want to... handicap a cleric more, eh? (:smallyuk:) Well except for the cleric of the god of fishing and the lowest caste, for that's essentially an NPC class. Before anyone asks: no, clerics of a cause don't exist (instantly kidnapped by beings from the far realm and taken home as pets - or are they?). 'Attempts' just counts as 'turn undead class feature/ attempts' for PrC's and feats and the like. So yeah, guess which feats the cleric of the god of fishing is going to take? If I couldn't come up with something appropriate - the very large majority of them - I just let them use it to cast domain spells spontaneously, or if 2 of their domains had 1/day abilities, made it so it's now domain ability/attempt burned. So I'm asking (kindly) for ideas on balance and better abilities.

Aifrost, LN god of fire, smithing and crafting in general. Doesn't like trolls and fights them with his big warhammer. Craft, fire and strength domains. Use an attempt to cast a domain spell spontaneously.

Burgh, CG god of bards, music, diplomacy abuse, knowledge, writing, illusion and the like. Illusion, knowledge, trickery and rune domains. Same.

Enku, LN god of books, hating on chaos, rain, protection of order against chaos, order, knowledge and the like. Has many monks (not the class) as fanbase. My very lawfull gnomes worship him almost exclusively. Knowledge, law, protection domains. Use and attempt to detect chaos (maybe too underpowered? should I make this detect alignment?)

Ghiseryes, neutral good god of fish, fishing, the calm sea, safe travel over sea and the lowest caste. Travel, weather and water domains. Use an attempt to add (cleric lvl+charisma) to any profession (fisher) check.

Ishva, chaotic neutral godess of destruction, sun, diseases, the Loyals (bastard children serving their noble parents as assasins). Sun, destruction and shadow domains.Turn undead. Really.

Jerio, neutral (leaning to law and good) god of rulers, horses, the moon and lone nightly travels on horseback, just for the fun of it. Moon, animal and nobility domains. Ride is class skill, use an attempt to use an activating domain power.
Jorgen, chaotic neutral god of soldiers, booze, strength and troop moral (this guy is popular). War, strength and passion domains. Use attempts to use and activating domain power.

Kriha, lawful good godess of softness, the holy family, the earth, city-priests (the important ones) and wife of Jerio. No, she's not a horse. Yeah, political marriage. Earth, pact and family domains. Use attempts to cast domain spells spontaneously (my first thought was to use them to cast free calm person spells, but those would be way too good at low levels and too weak at high.)

Nesho, neutral good god of travel, birth and messengers. Smart guy, always brings the good news. Walks faster than the horse of Jerio. Glory, herald and travel domains. Turn undead (yes this makes some sense, but an abbility that makes slightly more of it wouldn't be unwelcome).

Ros is the neutral evil god of bad news, hunger, illness, poverty and all who suffer from those. Giving money to a begger is seen as an offer to Ros. Pestilence, decay and suffering domains. Use attempts to use domain powers (someone have some creative idea for this guy?)

Talmo, lawful good god of knights, chivalry, loyalty, and risking your life for Jerio or some other ruler. Endurance, nobility an war domains. Ride in class, use attempts to use domain powers.

Voha, neutral good godess of grain, children, crops, food, life, balance and farmers. Balance, life and plant domains. Use attempts to use activating domain powers (a better ability doesn't really need to be PC-friendly, as I don't see her being a very adventurer-oriented godess)

Wisu, chaotic good god of wisdom, healing, land-priests (yeah, your local townpriest or, as most of the priests of Wisu, your not-so-local wandering holy priest who'd be a hobo if it wasn't for him being holy and all), wandering and renewal. Has 2 heads. Renewal, air, mysticism(good) and healing domains. Use attempts to lay on hands as a paladin of equal lvl (maybe a bit overpowered?).

Yurma, lawful good godess of paladins, trying to be stronger than your older brother Talmo, courage and honour and the like, protecting priests and other hobo's and hating your half-sister Ishva. Virgin (guess why? she has more of a penis than Talmo), but frequently asked to give a very-soon-to-be mother strength. Courage, protection and law domains. Turn undead.

Hased, lawful evil god of punishment, ultimate law, judging the dead, undead and loving brother of Liesed (no, not in that way, you pervert). If anything goes wrong, it must be a punishment from Hased. If you don't create abilities for at least 2 gods and eat that stuff Voha gave you, Hased is going to raise you as an undead after you die. Death, inqusition and law domains.Rebuke/control undead.

Liesed, lawful good godess of rewards, ultimate law, lawful bunnies, judging the dead, giving the undead the rest they deserve, deciding what is good and loving sister of Hased (but she means it). Healing, joy and law domains. Turn undead.

Alma, neutral good queen of good and stars. Godess of beauty, light, healing, spring, joy, warmth. Nice to everyone (don't you just hate her allready). Renewal, good, healing, purification domains. Use attempts to add charisma mod (max 1/2 cleric lvl) to hp healed on conj(healing) spells.

Poleies, chaotic neutral godess of trickery, ultimate chaos, changing the destinied fate of the world and doing so by creating little things, liberating people from a forced fate and giving them the freedom to choose to cheat. Luck, chaos, trickery, change, liberation and creation domains. Use attempts to add 1d3 to caster lvl of a spell.

Uyan, lawful neutral god of destiny, faithism, being-blind-yet-seeing-almost-everything, being annoyed by Poleies, sending visions, ultimate order. Law, fate, destiny, oracle and time domains. Turn or rebuke undead (it's not your choice, really, it was decided before time started). Probably in dire need of better ability.

Ilko, chaotic evil god of deception, tricking other people in doing what you want, manipulation and being demonicly handsome. Charm, domination and trickery domains. Cast domain spells spontaneously.

The stranger, chaotic neutral (almost evil, but didn't pass the theory exams) god of orcs, strangers, brutal force, forgetting your own name, madness and destruction. Madness, orcs and force domain. Use domain powers.

Ravanna, lawful evil godess of tirans, elfs, ice queens, evil, darkness and SM. You don't want to know what she does with Yusmo. Really. But it /is/ kinda kinky. (Sorry) Evil, tyrant and darkness domains. Cast domain spells spontaneously. (maybe make use rope a class skill? :smallyuk:)

Surryes, chaotic evil god of bitterness, being technicly dead, trying to kill everyone who isn't, the sea, storms, drowning. Watery death, storm and water domains. Use attempts to use domain powers.

Yusmo, lawful evil god of anger, hate, jalousy, destruction and revenge. Yes, that lawful part is right and yes it describes the feel of this guy. Decay, destruction and hatred domains. Use domain powers.

Thanks for any advice, I'm off to bed. Jeez, it's past 1...

2007-02-26, 03:27 AM
yeah sometimes it is wierd that all clerics gain powers over undead, especially if the god has nothing to do with them.

However the 'turn undead' ability isn't all that great (unless you allow divine metamagic, personally i never allow it). In a campaign i'm in right now our cleric has used her turning ability MAYBE 10 times and we are level 13. And with the cleric already being great even without the turning ability, if you could replace it with other things, especially those that can be used in alot of situations, you could potentially be giving an already powerful class an un-needed buff. Flavor yes, but one could then say taking certain dieties is 'overpowered'

2007-02-26, 06:52 AM
I have also given this some thought. Perhaps the solution would be to remove the clerics ability to turn undead while replacing it with "channeling", just as you propose. Then the cleric would recieve a divine bonus feat at level 1, making turn and rebuke undead one of them. Each god would grant a limited selection of these feats. Will look into it and make some suggestions for some of your gods.

EDIT: Oh.. sorry, I'm basically just repeating what you said. Shame on me... Must learn to actually read posts before I make replies.

2007-02-26, 02:17 PM
Since you can gain Rebuke/Turn equivelant abilities from Domains, perhaps swap out Turn Undead for a third Domain and then create an Undead Turning Domain.

2007-02-27, 06:04 PM
There were a ton of such powers available in (A)D&D 2.x.

2007-02-27, 06:23 PM
In my various campaigns we have encountered this problem many times. The question always is, "What is a good power to get in return for losing the ability to turn undead?" An extra domain is too powerful, but many other options seem too weak. What I have often settled on is an extra use/day of a domain-granted power (such as an extra smite each day from the Destruction domain) or a related additional bonus power (such as getting Weapon Specialization in the deity's favored weapon at 4th level if one has the War domain). I also like what many Forgotten Realms deities offer as part of their domain powers: clerics with the Moon domain can turn/rebuke lycanthropes; clerics with the Scalykind domain can turn/rebuke reptiles, etc.

2007-02-27, 07:42 PM
Ishva, chaotic neutral godess of cleaning, destruction, sun, diseases, the Loyals (bastard children serving their noble parents as assasins). Sun, destruction and shadow domains.Turn undead. Really. (emphasis mine)
... ... ... what? Cleaning, destruction and diseases into one Chaotic Neutral goddess? Sure, in RL there are plenty of religions with much broader ranges (God the father, for one, encompasses everything that is good), but this is a pantheon. Do those who follow her specifically destroy the cities of their opponents, then charge in with dustpans? Just remove cleaning from her repertoire and it'll be good.

2007-02-27, 07:58 PM
When I play a cleric, I like to take feats that let me use my turning attempts for other things, like increasing the power of my spells or improved healing.

2007-02-28, 02:03 AM
(emphasis mine)
... ... ... what? Cleaning, destruction and diseases into one Chaotic Neutral goddess? Sure, in RL there are plenty of religions with much broader ranges (God the father, for one, encompasses everything that is good), but this is a pantheon. Do those who follow her specifically destroy the cities of their opponents, then charge in with dustpans? Just remove cleaning from her repertoire and it'll be good.

Hmm, your right, was probably thinking too weird (cleaning, making pure, /'removing' all that is unpure, or just not wanted).

2007-02-28, 05:12 AM
That would be cleansing, not cleaning. =P

I find these amusing...

Burgh, god of diplomacy abuse? Hah! Kind of peculiar for a Cleric, but it's about time someone else got in on the action.

Ghiseryes, god of filthy rich fishermen clergy.

Jerio seems the chivalric sort. Probably a romantic as well. Really though, riding at night? Brrr!

Jorgen, god of soldiers, passion domain. Oh, that is not going to look pretty in the "rapine and pillage" category.

Kriha, not a horse. Is it really necessary to mention she's not a horse? Now I'm suspicious.

Nesho and Ros, gods of good and bad news, respectively. Do I get to shoot Ros? Also, Ros intrigues me. He's a god of the poor, but not in the "protector of the poor" way, but rather the "he's the reason they're poor to begin with" way. Jerk! I'll bet his clerics are real ripoff artists. Or they burn money.

Talmo, god-lackey of Jerio. Probably his secret lover. Oh, and THE chivalric god. Hmm. <_<

Wisu. Okay, so he has priests that wander about healing people. I get that. But why the two heads?

Hased and Liesed, siblings of ultimate law... Hased does all the work, Liesed gets lawful bunnies. Bunnies!? Awesome.

Alma. I've played FEAR. I know what she's about. I need new underwear.

Poleies, goddess of trickery and also defying fate. Clearly, the goddess of wishes twisted to give you what you really didn't want.

Uyan, god of being annoyed by Poleies. Very, very annoyed.

Ilko, god of being demonically handsome. I like him already.

The stranger, god of orcs and forgetting your own name. Well, doesn't that just fit?

Ravanna, goddess of [Censored]. Also Lawful. Whut?

Surryes, a.k.a. Cthulu. Seriously. Technically dead, associated with the seas, watery death, chaotic evil....

Yusmo, god of, I presume, divorce and spiteful ex-spouses.

Gods who weren't amusing enough to mention: Aifrost, Enku, Ishva, Kriha, Voha
Hmm. What with their names, Ishva, Kriha and Voha could be sisters, Alma too. Actually, Ishva is the odd one out. Curious....

2007-02-28, 04:32 PM
No, actually, Ishva is the daughter of Jerio, with an unknown woman, and Kriha is his wife.

Hmm, hadn't though of Surryes-Cthulhu... Surryes is the son of Hased with a mortal girl, from a fishertown he wanted to punish. When she discovered she was pregnant, the girl drowned herself, but the child in her womb was not really mortal, so he didn't really-really die. But does have a lot of anger, so he flooded the village Hased was punishing with his existence. But Surryes isn't as subtle as Cthulhu. He just sends big waves or clerics with an unhealthy fascination for the undead. Allthough he has an intelligent magic item dedicated to him somewhere, which is a bit more sutble. Can't wait to throw that at the PC's.

Ah, the SM thing was more to show her obsession with ruling with a leather whip - err, iron fist. Really. She's just misunderstood. And depicted bad by the current rulers as the patron deity of the emperors of the empire they seized.

The thing with Uyan is that he foresaw a path for history to follow and wrote that down in a book only he can read (some say the world is this book) and Poleies things that's boring and tries to mess with this whole planned history thing and free the course of time. Yeah, she worships the PC's.

Well actually, Ros and his clerics like to disguise themselves as actual beggers and punish anyone who mistreats them horribly. And spread hunger and misfortune anyway. Giving mony to a begger might protect you from his wrath if he's nearby... Who needs social service?

And Jorgen, did I mention he was raised by Poleies?

About Jerio and Talmo and Yurma - Jerio is more of the light-amour, quick on a brown horse, intelligent guy, while Talmo, his oldest kid and heir, is more of the knight in service of the ruler, with heavy armour and a black horse, but not too bright. Mounted combat, but uses a greatsword, you know the type. Yurma is the second and thus the paladin/templar. Fights a lot like Talmo, but in service of Kriha (the temples). Is a bit smarter and thus kickes Talmo's ass with smite-lance cheese.

And Burgh... He's the god of bards, need I say more? His clerics are probably multiclass bards or have a high int and think their smart for being a full cleric (but have teh skillpoints).

2007-02-28, 04:34 PM
One thing I like (from the Warcraft D20 game) is that Druids can turn/rebuke plants, and shaman (elementally affiliated divine casters) can turn/rebuke elementals.