Differences btw 5e and 3.5e?

[ChaosArchon]

So the only edition of DnD I play is 3.5 (although I am dabbling in PF) and am considering trying out 5e... so what's so different between 3.5 and 5? I know 4 got lambasted alot for being very bland (in the sense that spellcaster's were alot weaker and everyone was essentially the same) so does 5e fix that? Basically how is 5e different?

[Envyus]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/

Download the basic rules and judge it for yourself.

[Sartharina]

First off - the math is smaller, which makes it somewhat tighter, but somewhat not, as well. Proficiency is universal to attacks, saves, and skills, and goes from +2 to +6 over the 20 levels.
HP scales at the same rate as 3.5.
Attributes cap at 20.
The action economy is looser - you can use your movement freely throughout your turn, in addition to an action and potential bonus action.
Only fighters get multiple attacks.

... there are a lot of changes.

Frankly, I find it awesome, even though the numbers are smaller.

Between their self-healing, good AC, action economy, extra attacks, and weapon proficiencies, Fighters have good sustained damage and the best survivability in the game - Damage a fighter takes is damage that a Cleric doesn't need to heal, thanks to "Second Wind".

Rogue's sneak attack damage is only once per round, but VERY easy to acquire (Against anyone you have Advantage against, or anyone adjacent to an ally). There are no restrictions on range - so you can be a knife nut that skirts around the fringes of a battlefield tossing daggers with deadly effect into the backs/sides/spleens/etc of enemies tangling with allies. And, with their "Cunning Action" ability, they are absolutely slippery blighters with constant options for Bonus Actions.

Wizards have their spellcasting nerfed in a lot of ways (Fewer spells per level overall), but preparation is much easier to keep track of, and semi-spontaneous. Concentration and non-scaling spells keeps a good limitation on spells, while Cantrips and Arcane Recovery give good sustainability.

I'm still trying to figure out Clerics, but they're the only ones that get Gate. They have good support spells, and aren't terrible in combat thanks to their armor proficiencies (And Dwarves rock as clerics thanks to their extra HP, armor and weapon proficiencies, and other goodies).

Races are pretty cool. Humans are now generalists (+1 to all attributes), instead of specialists.

Feats are a variant rule, more powerful than 3.X's, and are interchangeable with ability score improvements, giving a choice between vertical and horizontal progression.

[ChaosArchon]

Seems interesting, from what I'm gathering the power level seems to be alot lower as well, kinda like a E6 game right? Also how many classes and races are coming with it? Is it the basic classes (fighter, druid, wizard, sorcerer, paladin, rogue, and ranger) (human, elf, dwarf, halfling) or are there others. Also does this buff to melee characters mean that paladins are much better or are they still just suckier clerics with tighter alignment restrictions?

[Envyus]

Seems interesting, from what I'm gathering the power level seems to be alot lower as well, kinda like a E6 game right? Also how many classes and races are coming with it? Is it the basic classes (fighter, druid, wizard, sorcerer, paladin, rogue, and ranger) (human, elf, dwarf, halfling) or are there others. Also does this buff to melee characters mean that paladins are much better or are they still just suckier clerics with tighter alignment restrictions?

The Basic rules cover the four main classes Fighter, Wizard, Cleric and Rogue and races Human, Halfling, Dwarf and Elf along with two sub races for each. (Cept Humans) The PHB will add the Paladin, the Ranger, the Druid, The Barbarian, The Sorcerer, the Warlock and the Bard. Each class including the 4 basic ones will have several subclasses to pick from which give them unique powers.

From what we know the Paladin will be cool and there is no alignment restrictions on it anymore. (Other then the fact that an Evil Paladin is called a Blackguard.) All the classes look quite different as well.

Races wise We are getting the 4 main along with the Half Orc, Half Elf, Warforged, Dragonborn, Teifling and maybe the Kender. (Dwarfs and Elves are also getting Duergar and Drow as subraces to pick from)

[ChaosArchon]

So I take it that the Basic Rules are what I just downloaded and the 5e PHB is what is being released on the 15th?

[Auramis]

Throwing in my opinion, 5.0 is more similar to 3.0 and 3.5 than it is to 4.0, but it does draw some inspiration from 4e.

[HunterOfJello]

So I take it that the Basic Rules are what I just downloaded and the 5e PHB is what is being released on the 15th?

The Basic Rules released online are the central rules that anyone would need to play the game (about 100 pages).

On July 15th (July 3rd at select stores) the Starter Set is being released. It contains dice, 5 premade characters, a short rulebook (about 30 pages), and an adventure that a DM can run. It has everything that you would need to play at a $20, but doesn't contain information about character creation or everything that the Basic Rules does. It is the most stripped down version you can get for someone who is brand new to the game. It gives you an idea of what the game is like without any extra baggage.

The starter set doesn't have everything you might wish it did, but the Basic Rules are out if you want that stuff and the real books are coming out soon.


The 5e Player's Handbook is due to come out on 08/19/2014.

The 5e Monster Manual is due 9/30/2014.

The 5e Dungeon Master's Guide is due for 11/18/2014.

[Auramis]

The 5e Player's Handbook is due to come out on 08/19/2014.

The 5e Monster Manual is due 9/30/2014.

The 5e Dungeon Master's Guide is due for 11/18/2014.

Just going to say thank you for posting dates. I've been unable to find them while searching. T_T

[ChaosArchon]

Uh hate to be the downer then but how are players gonna play if the MM isn't even out yet? Just play the same adventure that's in the starter set over and over again?

[Chaosvii7]

Uh hate to be the downer then but how are players gonna play if the MM isn't even out yet? Just play the same adventure that's in the starter set over and over again?

Staggered book releases have been the norm with every edition since 3.5. I think even Pathfinder did it, and they just put out the conversion PDF so you could translate monsters over as they worked to get their Bestiary out.

I think the new design philosophy with the Player's Handbook is that it's designed for ALL players, including the DM to use. The DMG of this edition will feature a lot of the optional rules modules and will also focus on building and maintaining campaign worlds, and the Monster Manual will expand upon the selection of monsters to include iconic D&D monsters.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the PHB will include the standard fantasy monsters and then all the Creations made for D&D like Beholders, Mind Flayers, and the like'll show up in the Monster Manual. I think it's safe to expect monster creation and advancement rules to show up in the Monster Manual as well.

Also, if your trigger finger is itching and you can't wait until August, the Starter Set has a small collection of monsters available.

[Inevitability]

Uh hate to be the downer then but how are players gonna play if the MM isn't even out yet? Just play the same adventure that's in the starter set over and over again?

If you downloaded the playtest, most of the monsters from there should work fine with some minor adjustments. Or use these (http://media.wizards.com/downloads/dnd/LoCS_Stats_Next.pdf).

[Yuki Akuma]

Staggered book releases have been the norm with every edition

..that had the three core books.

Seriously, this isn't new at all.

Also, they're planning on updating the Basic Rules each time they release a core book. We might get more monsters, magic items and so on well before the core books they're meant to be in are out.

[JediSoth]

The adventure in the Starter Set will last for 5+ levels. Some groups will power through it in a week, but I bet the average gaming group will be just finishing up when the PHB is released or possible will be good until the MM is released. The monsters in the Starter Set are all collected at the back of the adventure, so you can just use that as a starter MM without having to flip through the adventure.

[Person_Man]

I'm working on a point by point "Grognard's Guide to 5E D&D Rules" to specifically address this issue (and differences between other edition). I'd appreciate any help that people could offer, and a link to it is below in my signature.

[Doug Lampert]

..that had the three core books.

Seriously, this isn't new at all.

Also, they're planning on updating the Basic Rules each time they release a core book. We might get more monsters, magic items and so on well before the core books they're meant to be in are out.

Define the three core books. Because Men and Magic, Monsters and Treasure, and Wilderness Adventure weren't staggered since they came out at the same time.

The names weren't yet PHB, DMG, and MM; but seriously, the correspondence is there.

[Palegreenpants]

I'd like to restate the, albeit already made, point that 5E's power level will seem puny if you have been playing 3.5. Personally, I love it, it makes your character feel like an actual person, as opposed to a magic-pumped monster-attracting god-thing. If your DM is doing 5E right, you will be finding terror, intrigue, and extremely mortal action instead of flying abilities, lots of magic items, and conversations with gods.

[Joe the Rat]

Uh hate to be the downer then but how are players gonna play if the MM isn't even out yet? Just play the same adventure that's in the starter set over and over again?

They also have adventures (the Tyranny of Dragons line, I believe) scheduled to be released intermittently as well. Anything regarding Monsters and Treasure that appear ought to be contained therein. So yeah, you can buy more adventures, or you can try winging it with the starter bestiary.

[Envyus]

The Hoard fo the Dragon Queen Adventure will be released alongside the PHB and the Basic Rules will be updated with Monsters in August.

[Palegreenpants]

On the subject of available monsters, it's fairly easy for a DM to make his/her own beasties. Heck, I only use custom monsters.

[eastmabl]

Define the three core books. Because Men and Magic, Monsters and Treasure, and Wilderness Adventure weren't staggered since they came out at the same time.

The names weren't yet PHB, DMG, and MM; but seriously, the correspondence is there.

I think that Men and Magic, Monsters and Treasure, and Wilderness Adventure would be the definition of old when it comes to D&D. Halflings were still hobbits for these three books.

[Sartharina]

I'd like to restate the, albeit already made, point that 5E's power level will seem puny if you have been playing 3.5. Personally, I love it, it makes your character feel like an actual person, as opposed to a magic-pumped monster-attracting god-thing. If your DM is doing 5E right, you will be finding terror, intrigue, and extremely mortal action instead of flying abilities, lots of magic items, and conversations with gods.Maybe for wizards and the highest-level fighters.

But Rogues and Fighters are higher-powered in this than 3.5, especially at low-levels. Kinda.

Fighters are actually good at defending themselves, without finding their defenses trivialized at high levels (AC, Saves, and HP matter.), and are effective switch-hitters and versatile combatants even off-spec.

Rogues don't need to spend more feats than they can ever hope to have to be brutal in combat, and they have more options than "Stand still and try to spam sneak attacks with two weapons" (Because that's not an option) - they are extremely mobile, slippery, and flexible with their multiple actions they can take, and are effective short sword or knife-using dirty fighters right out of the box.

[pwykersotz]

Maybe for wizards and the highest-level fighters.

But Rogues and Fighters are higher-powered in this than 3.5, especially at low-levels. Kinda.

Fighters are actually good at defending themselves, without finding their defenses trivialized at high levels (AC, Saves, and HP matter.), and are effective switch-hitters and versatile combatants even off-spec.

Rogues don't need to spend more feats than they can ever hope to have to be brutal in combat, and they have more options than "Stand still and try to spam sneak attacks with two weapons" (Because that's not an option) - they are extremely mobile, slippery, and flexible with their multiple actions they can take, and are effective short sword or knife-using dirty fighters right out of the box.

It seems like the classes need each other now. A wizard who wants to go 'god' needs a fighter to intercept threats. Likewise, a high level fighter is unlikely to succeed on a great deal of his high level saves without the backing of spells from both wizard and cleric. Clerics don't have enough offensive capability to take down encounters by themselves, and rogues are in a similar boat to fighters except more for espionage and possibly assassination. It really does seem like one of each class is the most powerful way to play.

[Psyren]

Uh hate to be the downer then but how are players gonna play if the MM isn't even out yet? Just play the same adventure that's in the starter set over and over again?

Pretty much though there are enough monsters in it for you to mix things up (a bit.)


I'm working on a point by point "Grognard's Guide to 5E D&D Rules" to specifically address this issue (and differences between other edition). I'd appreciate any help that people could offer, and a link to it is below in my signature.

Cheers P_M, I look forward to reading it :smallsmile:

[TheOOB]

Honestly the game is more similar to 2e than 3e.

The biggest change I'd say is that the barrier for entry is much lower. You can make a character in under five minutes now, and there are much fewer rules and edge cases you need to know about now.

[pwykersotz]

Honestly the game is more similar to 2e than 3e.

The biggest change I'd say is that the barrier for entry is much lower. You can make a character in under five minutes now, and there are much fewer rules and edge cases you need to know about now.

At least before the splatbooks hit. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Honestly the game is more similar to 2e than 3e.

The biggest change I'd say is that the barrier for entry is much lower. You can make a character in under five minutes now, and there are much fewer rules and edge cases you need to know about now.


At least before the splatbooks hit. :smalltongue:

Exactly. Even PF was simple when it was just CRB. Hell, even 4e got more complicated after a while.

[Tholomyes]

Staggered book releases have been the norm with every edition since 3.5. I think even Pathfinder did it, and they just put out the conversion PDF so you could translate monsters over as they worked to get their Bestiary out.

I think the new design philosophy with the Player's Handbook is that it's designed for ALL players, including the DM to use. The DMG of this edition will feature a lot of the optional rules modules and will also focus on building and maintaining campaign worlds, and the Monster Manual will expand upon the selection of monsters to include iconic D&D monsters.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the PHB will include the standard fantasy monsters and then all the Creations made for D&D like Beholders, Mind Flayers, and the like'll show up in the Monster Manual. I think it's safe to expect monster creation and advancement rules to show up in the Monster Manual as well.

Also, if your trigger finger is itching and you can't wait until August, the Starter Set has a small collection of monsters available.I believe 4e had all books released simultaneously, and, as you mentioned for PF, the assumption was that you could still continue to play with 3.5 monsters, until they released the Bestiary.

On the other notes, I do agree that it seems the DMG will mainly consist of Optional Rules, and the standard "How to run an RPG" style tips and tricks that you tend to find in any modern RPG Gamemaster book, and thus will be more optional. I disagree, however that the PHB will include any monsters or such, as we haven't seen any indication of that, only that the Basic Rules will have an update to include a "Small Bestiary" for DM use, in August (though what that means isn't all that clear. I'm guessing we'll see something around the size of the Starter set Appendix).

It seems to me that what they want to do is stretch the launch out over a long enough period of time that they can continue to draw in people, especially new players. But acknowledging that they can't just release a PHB with no MM or DMG, they're using the free Basic Rules, to try to supplement it's lack.

[da_chicken]

I would still swear that 4e had books released on a staggered schedule. Was just the PHB available at GenCon?

[Tholomyes]

I'm not sure. To be honest I wasn't all that interested in 4e when it came out, since my group was already in a couple ongoing games around the time, so, at most we'd just do a one shot, if anything. But from all that I've read, it seems all three books were released June 6 2008, which would be before Gen Con.

[RedWarlock]

I would still swear that 4e had books released on a staggered schedule. Was just the PHB available at GenCon?

Nope, 4e was the only one with a simultaneous release. They specifically did it with a "Why should you wait to play the whole game?" justification, citing the challenging and even frustrating staggered release as a bad thing.

Yet another 4e-ism thrown to the wind.. I thought it made perfect sense.

[obryn]

Yet another 4e-ism thrown to the wind.. I thought it made perfect sense.
I dunno, as a 4e player, I feel like all three books could have used a few more months of playtesting and editing. That's part of the reason for the staggered release of 5e.

[RedWarlock]

I dunno, as a 4e player, I feel like all three books could have used a few more months of playtesting and editing. That's part of the reason for the staggered release of 5e.

Sure, but if you're going to delay something because it might not be done, delay the whole, not part. I may peek at the PHB and such, but I'm not dropping a single cent until the whole thing comes out. If they're making me wait for the whole package, they can wait for my money in turn.

[1337 b4k4]

Sure, but if you're going to delay something because it might not be done, delay the whole, not part. I may peek at the PHB and such, but I'm not dropping a single cent until the whole thing comes out. If they're making me wait for the whole package, they can wait for my money in turn.

Which I'm sure they're fine with. In the mean time, all the people that don't share your concerns will be paying them now. That's something I never really got about the complaints about the staggered release schedule. If we take them at their word that they are continuing to work on the books as each one is released, then those that don't want a staggered schedule would still have to wait until Nov. to buy the product. So what exactly is wrong with them providing what is finished now?

[RedWarlock]

Which I'm sure they're fine with. In the mean time, all the people that don't share your concerns will be paying them now. That's something I never really got about the complaints about the staggered release schedule. If we take them at their word that they are continuing to work on the books as each one is released, then those that don't want a staggered schedule would still have to wait until Nov. to buy the product. So what exactly is wrong with them providing what is finished now?

Because when they release part of it that *might* be done now, they prevent themselves from fixing problems that occur, as they evolve the rest, in that original material. If, in the course of developing that material in the DMG, they find there was a major error or omission in the content for the PHB, they have no way to fix that, short of errata (which everybody loves after 4e), and hoping people buy the second printing and take it as canon.

[Inevitability]

[QUOTE=RedWarlock;17789916]If, in the course of developing that material in the DMG, they find there was a major error or omission in the content for the PHB, they have no way to fix that, short of errata (which everybody loves after 4e)/QUOTE]

I agree that 4e went a little overboard with its errata, but I don't want to get 3.5's 'if we errata it, we admit we were wrong!' mentality.

So WOTC, fix the broken stuff, leave the strong stuff alone, how about it?

[Tholomyes]

I agree that 4e went a little overboard with its errata, but I don't want to get 3.5's 'if we errata it, we admit we were wrong!' mentality.

So WOTC, fix the broken stuff, leave the strong stuff alone, how about it?Hell, even Pathfinder erratas stuff, and it's the inheritor of 3.5's legacy. 4e may have gone overboard, but it's hard to find a publisher, nowadays, of any decent size, who doesn't attempt to solve issues using errata or FAQs or what have you. It'd be a shame for 5e to have the same head-in-the-sand mentality, in a world where it's increasingly becoming the norm to errata broken stuff to a more sane version.

[Knaight]

Because when they release part of it that *might* be done now, they prevent themselves from fixing problems that occur, as they evolve the rest, in that original material. If, in the course of developing that material in the DMG, they find there was a major error or omission in the content for the PHB, they have no way to fix that, short of errata (which everybody loves after 4e), and hoping people buy the second printing and take it as canon.

In practice, finishing up one book, then another book, then another book works out much easier from a work flow perspective, and will probably actually minimize errors.

[JediSoth]

In practice, finishing up one book, then another book, then another book works out much easier from a work flow perspective, and will probably actually minimize errors.

It minimizes error on the part of the editors, the layout team, and the printer to do a staggered release. When you produce three books simultaneously, there is a LOT of room for confusion. I guarantee you the people at the printer are not going to know the difference between the interior files of the PHB vs. the MM vs. the DMG. Normal workflow at those places doesn't allow for the files to be name in any way to allow at-a-glance identification by a lay person. So then you'd get into having to send someone from the WotC production team for press checks. Depending on where it's being printed that might be really impractical.

There are a TON of reasons not to do a simultaneous release that have nothing to do with letting gamers have all three books at Gen Con.

context: I am a production coordinator for a company that publishes catalogs.