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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Other Amkii the Ineffable (3.5 Deity; If I stat it, you CAN'T kill it!)



Jormengand
2014-07-07, 01:57 PM
AMKII originally stood for Achaekek MK 2, referring to the nearly-unkillable Mantis God from Pathfinder. The original Achaekek was only supposed to die to the attacks of deities, but there were ways of killing him - not least standing in an Anti-magic field and hitting him with a stick. Even Pathfinder's take on the tarrasque could be bypassed by hard cheese which caused it to lose even its own Ex ability. Worse, people could steal one or other of the abilities, and become immune to practically everything.

Sure, the Lady of Pain is all very well, but what if you want players actually to be able to fight, or at least avoid, the thing in question? Well, let's see what happens if we...



Amkii The Ineffable

Huge Outsider (Deity)
Hit Dice: 20d8+200 (290 hp)
Initiative: +8 (+4 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 100 ft, fly 400 ft (perfect)
AC: 66 (+4 Dex, -2 size, +31 natural, +13 +5 full plate +10 deflection)
Attacks: Greatsword +5 +34/+29/+24/+19 melee
Damage: Greatsword +5 4d6+21
Face/Reach: 10 ft by 10 ft/15 ft
Special Attacks: Spells, Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Divine qualities, superior low-light vision, true immortality, darkvision 120 feet
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +18, Will +25
Abilities: Str 32, Dex 18, Con 30, Int 30, Wis 37, Cha 20
Skills: Concentration +33, Diplomacy +28, Heal +36, Intimidate +28, Knowledge (Arcana, Architecture and Engineering, History, Nature, Psionics, Religion and The Planes) +33, Listen +36, Move Silently +27, Search +33, Sense Motive +36, Spellcraft +33, Spot +36, Psicraft +33
Feats: Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
Challenge Rating: 35
Alignment: Lawful neutral

Combat

Darkvision
Amkii's darkvision extends out to 120 feet.

Divine Qualities
Amkii has a divine rank of 0, with all that entails.

Superior Low-Light Vision
Amkii can see five times as far as a human in poor lighting.

True Immortality
Amkii has Regeneration 100, and cannot be harmed by any form of attack (though he still takes non-lethal damage as normal). It cannot, in any way, die. If Amkii would take lethal damage, it always takes non-lethal damage instead, even if the specific effect states that this is not so. Even if Amkii somehow did take lethal damage, it would treat it instead as non-lethal damage.

Amkii ignores nonlethal damage in excess of 10,000 points. Dealing further damage to it does nothing. Further, if Amkii is unconscious for over 20 minutes, it immediately wakes up with full hit points. In this case, Amkii is immune to all damage whatsoever for 1 round.

If an effect would kill Amkii, it doesn't. It instead sets Amkii's nonlethal damage total either to its current total, or to a value equal to his total hit points +10, whichever is higher.

If an effect would trap Amkii's soul, not only does the effect not work because it is an outsider, but the vessel which would hold its soul shatters.

If an effect would remove Amkii's True Immortality or Regeneration, it doesn't. Instead, Amkii doesn't remove 100 points of nonlethal damage during the next turn.

If an effect would cause another creature to gain True Immortality (including by creating a creature with True Immortality), it doesn't. Instead, any creature who dares attempt to replicate Amkii's awesome might (The creature who used the ability, not necessarily the one who might have been given True Immortality) is subject to the effects of an Imprisonment spell (DC 32). Even if a creature did gain True Immortality in this way, it would immediately lose it again.

If an effect would allow another creature to, in any respect, control Amkii's actions (which is to say, force Amkii to take actions against its will), it doesn't. Instead, Amkii gains control of the creature who used this ability (again, not necessarily the one who might have controlled it) for the duration, and to the extent, given in the original ability's description.

If an effect would teleport Amkii, or cause him in any way to move, he can choose whether or not he is affected by this. If an affect somehow stops Amkii from performing actions, or a specific type of action (such as a Temporal Stasis spell), this only remains the case for a maximum of 20 minutes. He is then immune to the effect for a further 20 minutes.

If an effect would cause Amkii to lose divine immunities or its divine ranks, it doesn't. Instead, it causes Amkii to lose the spell resistance and deflection bonus to AC, and nothing else.

If Amkii is called upon to make a roll regarding True Immortality, he passes it without having to roll. Similarly, other creatures always fail such a roll.

If one could kill Amkii, doing so would still be completely pointless as it would be resurrected again immediately and at full capacity, even if it it had been completely erased from time, space and existence itself, such as through an Unname spell. In any case, Amkii can, once per day and by concentrating for 1 minute, reform itself, undamaged, anywhere on any plane.

Spells

Amkii casts spells in exactly the same manner as a Solar Angel, except using the Protection and Law domains instead of choosing from those listed. It typically reserves its domain spells, as well as the extra spell slots for having higher Wisdom than the Solar, for spells useful against its specific target each day.

Spell-Like Abilities

At will: Discern Location, Dimension Door, Dimensional Anchor, Gate (Planar travel only), Greater Dispel Magic, 3/day: Greater Teleport, Heal, Mage's Disjunction 1/Day: Imprisonment (DC 32), Plane Shift

The following abilities are always active on Amkii’s person, as the spells (caster level 20th)
Detect chaos, detect snares and pits, discern lies (DC 27), see invisibility, true seeing. They can be dispelled, but Amkii can reactivate them as a free action.

In both cases, the save DCs are wisdom-based.



Okay, I'm pretty sure you can't kill it, though there might be a way to keep it down forever (except for 1 round every 20 minutes - not long enough to do anything -) with non-location-based DoT in excess of 100 damage/round. One thing I'm not really sure about is the CR. Clearly, it's trivial for a level 35 party to defeat, if not actually kill, but I don't feel comfortable giving an immortal 20th level cleric much lower, especially when it can just get back up a little later and walk through a gate or two to get back to you. Even the CR 57 Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires) would have a hard time keeping it down - pretty much having to full attack it every few rounds just to keep it in negatives.

If you actually want to get on with your life, having this thing going after you is going to make it seriously tough, but actually defeating it in the first instance isn't too hard. I guess the DM could just decide "Amkii gets bored and stops trying to kill you," but it could take down most spellcasters just by wasting their spell slots. I dunno.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-07, 03:29 PM
I fail to see how your true immortality effect is any different from just leaving it unstated. You basically just wrote "Does not follow the rules, all effects run on DM fiat, player action is irrelevant."

ben-zayb
2014-07-07, 03:38 PM
I'm not sure I follow the logic. If a game uses homebrew, then killing this thing will be just as easy. :smallconfused:

EDIT: You give immunity piercing and piercing-piercing (i.e. the stuff that blocks Searing Spell and the like), and only so few and so specified at that. What's stopping any other homebrew piercing effects from targeting everything else about the deity that isn't specifically described to be piercing-piercing.

Jormengand
2014-07-07, 03:53 PM
I fail to see how your true immortality effect is any different from just leaving it unstated. You basically just wrote "Does not follow the rules, all effects run on DM fiat, player action is irrelevant."

No, I wrote "Does not die. No, not even THEN." Sure, you can knock it out for however long, but it will get back up and it will do a set amount of damage, either with its greatsword or 20th-level cleric casting. It will not go all Lady of Pain on you and kill you before you can even say contingent raise dead. You can fight and defeat it.

It's like PF's tarrasque, or what PF's tarrasque was supposed to be anyway. You can't kill it, ever. You can fight it, knock it out and shove it somewhere where it can't hurt you for a while, but you can't actually kill the damn thing. Same with the original Achaekek, assuming the players are not in fact gods.


I'm not sure I follow the logic. If a game uses homebrew, then killing this thing will be just as easy. :smallconfused:

EDIT: You give immunity piercing and piercing-piercing (i.e. the stuff that blocks Searing Spell and the like), and only so few and so specified at that. What's stopping any other homebrew piercing effects from targeting everything else about the deity that isn't specifically described to be piercing-piercing.

I'm assuming the DM won't allow homebrew effects which say "This can kill Amkii the Ineffable, and when it does it stays down." You'd have to write something painfully specific to kill it (id est, you would have to write that it did lethal damage even to things with regeneration, and that damage was always treated as lethal damage even if an effect said it wasn't, and that when it did kill something that something couldn't be resurrected, ever, which I wouldn't allow anyway) and the DM can always say "No".

Amechra
2014-07-07, 04:08 PM
The Teramach can kill it. Or, at least, has a similarly comprehensive method of bypassing immortality.

And they can get that power by 14th level at the earliest.

Also, hey, Greymantle says hi. Greymantle says hi, and LAUGHS!

Jormengand
2014-07-07, 04:16 PM
The Teramach can kill it. Or, at least, has a similarly comprehensive method of bypassing immortality.

And they can get that power by 14th level at the earliest.

Also, hey, Greymantle says hi. Greymantle says hi, and LAUGHS!

Could you link to those two things and tell me how they do it?

Tacitus
2014-07-07, 04:22 PM
DvR 0 adds Charisma to AC as Deflection, which is missing from your AC line.

Primal Fury
2014-07-07, 04:29 PM
Could you link to those two things and tell me how they do it?
I don't know what Greymantle is, but the Teramach has an ability that well... here it is:


Death-is-Death Conclusion: When you reduce a creature to -10 hit points, or below 0 hit points if they do not possess negative hit points, or inflict nonlethal damage in excess of -10 hit points if they have Regeneration or a similar trait, or otherwise destroy a creature's form, they die. This only functions in a Rage. Specific examples follow.

Creature who reconstitute themselves after death, such as Liches, Ghosts, and Gods, do not reconstitute themselves; they just die.

Creatures who cannot be killed, such as the Tarrasque, are killed anyway.

Creatures whose life force return to their home plane after death, to become one with its planar energies, such as most Outsiders, do not achieve cosmic one-ness; they just die.

Creatures who can survive past their normal threshold for death, such as by the effects of a Delay Death spell, do not survive past this threshold; they just die.

When you kill a Summoned creature, its real self dies.

When you kill a creature who is projected from somewhere else, such as by an Astral Projection spell, their real self dies.

When you kill a creature whose death is interrupted by an effect that does not require an action to perform, such as a Vampire's automatic gaseous form, or a contingent spell, that effect does not activate; they just die.

I'm sure you get the gist; killing things kills them. Extrapolate as necessary.
It seems like these sorts of conflicts are simply up to DM fiat, since both seem similarly all-encompassing.

Player: He's dead.

DM: No he's not.

Player: Yeah he is.

DM: No he's not!

Player: Yeah huh!

DM: Nuh uh!

Ad infinitum.

Amechra
2014-07-07, 04:30 PM
Greymantle doesn't kill it. It's a 5th level Necromancy spell that renders living creatures incapable of removing negative levels or healing from damage or ability damage. It also suppresses Regeneration and Fast Healing for the duration as part of its function. It would only suppress the Regeneration part of True Immortality, and doesn't remove it entirely, thus bypassing that clause right there. You can find it on Page 107 of the Spell Compendium.

And, well... Death-is-Death Conclusion, a power up of Protagonism-Devouring Legend Singularity. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15387479&postcount=4) They also get an ability to ignore immunities in their Excellencies.

Note how it says that if they creature can't die, it dies anyway.

There's also a number of homebrew abilities that bypass Regeneration without suppressing it or removing it entirely.

Also the "cannot be controlled" clause is way too vague, especially since at extremes that can be extended to trying to talk to it. Clarify what you mean, please.

To make this more challenging, I suggest any further critiques ignore purposefully vague clauses like the "cannot be controlled" one, mainly because clauses like that aren't cricket, mate.

Not cricket at all.

Jormengand
2014-07-07, 04:45 PM
DvR 0 adds Charisma to AC as Deflection, which is missing from your AC line.
Ah, good point. That's why I shouldn't use creature builders. >.>

I don't know what Greymantle is, but the Teramach has an ability that well... here it is:


It seems like these sorts of conflicts are simply up to DM fiat, since both seem similarly all-encompassing.

Player: He's dead.

DM: No he's not.

Player: Yeah he is.

DM: No he's not!

Player: Yeah huh!

DM: Nuh uh!

Ad infinitum.

It's fine: this is what happens:

- Amkii dies at 300 NL damage from Teramach's effect.
- Amkii's ability ("It cannot, in any way, die.") activates.
- Teramach's effect ("Creatures who cannot be killed, such as the Tarrasque, are killed anyway") activates.
- Amkii's ability ("If an effect would kill Amkii, it doesn't.") activates.
- Amkii is set to 300 NL damage.
- Note that even if Amkii had been killed, he would have come back to life anyway. His death is not "Interrupted by an effect that does not require an action to perform"; he dies, sure, and then comes back afterwards.

As for Greymantle, it can shrug that off 1/day (that said, I'd probably better specify what "Undamaged" means). "Control Amkii" has been cleared up a little.

General Patton
2014-07-07, 05:25 PM
- Amkii's ability ("If an effect would kill Amkii, it doesn't.") activates.

That looks an awful lot like an immunity, which is much more convenient for the Teramach to overcome than large finitely powerful resistances, thanks to Obstreperous Shell-Cracking Mien.


While in a Rage, whenever one of your rolls would be opposed by a perfect effect (Such as rolling fire damage against a creature immune to fire, or attempting to grapple a character under the effects of Freedom of Movement - an effect with no direct way of circumvention. So, fire resistance would not apply in the former case, since it can be circumvented by dealing more damage.), you may make an opposed roll against it. Roll a d20 and add your class level and Strength modifier. The opposition rolls a d20, and adds a relevant level modifier (such as caster level for a spell or the properties of a magic item, meldshaping level for the effects of a Soulmeld, class level if it is the direct effect of a class feature, etc) and a relevant ability modifier (such as Intelligence for a Wizard's spell, Constitution for a Soulmeld, or Charisma for a Paladin's immunity to fear; use your best judgment). If you succeed, your roll transpires as if the offending perfect effect did not exist, and any ongoing effects of your roll are similarly unhindered (so, a grappled character with Freedom of Movement would not suddenly become ungrappled later, nor would they be immune to being pinned or constricted in the same grapple, although letting go of them, and then attempting to grapple them a second time, would require another opposed roll).

So that should synergize with Death-is-Death Conclusion and punch through the immunity to death-immunity-piercing. And of course this ability has to punch through immunity to itself.


- Note that even if Amkii had been killed, he would have come back to life anyway. His death is not "Interrupted by an effect that does not require an action to perform"; he dies, sure, and then comes back afterwards.

Death-is-Death Conclusion is an extension of Protagonism-Devouring Legend Singularity, which does this.


When you kill or destroy a creature while in a Rage, their individuality and essence is absorbed into your mythos, and bound their by the authority you have proven by killing it. If an affected creature has a soul, it proceeds onward to its afterlife as usual, but is dull and almost inanimate; any petitioner or other Outsider created from one is lifeless and insensate, and those planar contraptions that extract soul-energy (such as the Maggot Pits of Avernus) find them to be dry and worthless.

Such creatures may still be returned to life/undeath/etc by appropriate magics, but the thing that appears is a mindless doll without purpose or agency, capable of neither thought nor action.

The one potential solution is this, impossible as it may seem. If you should be killed, all the essence that you have consumed is released back into the multiverse, giving back mind and potency to those souls, bodies, lives, and so on, that you have preyed upon.

So, the Teramach momentarily kills Amkii, performs a soul-lobotomy without actually trapping the entire soul, and then a comatose Amkii is revived.

Jormengand
2014-07-07, 05:37 PM
That looks an awful lot like an immunity, which is much more convenient for the Teramach to overcome than large finitely powerful resistances, thanks to Obstreperous Shell-Cracking Mien.
The ability doesn't work. Not just for killing Amkii, I mean it just plain doesn't work against anything that's not a spell or class feature. You're rolling against something modified by a non-existent level modifier and a non-existent ability score modifier - it makes less sense than asking for a ghost's constitution modifier.

Also, it doesn't work because it only triggers when one of your rolls is opposed by a perfect effect, and you're not rolling to kill Amkii.


Death-is-Death Conclusion is an extension of Protagonism-Devouring Legend Singularity, which does this.



So, the Teramach momentarily kills Amkii, performs a soul-lobotomy without actually trapping the entire soul, and then a comatose Amkii is revived.

Ehh, not quite.

"If an effect would trap Amkii's soul, not only does the effect not work because it is an outsider, but the vessel which would hold its soul shatters."

Poor Teramach. :smalleek:

Nanoblack
2014-07-07, 08:21 PM
It looks like you may not be reading through the Teramach abilities thoroughly enough. In the case of Obstreperous Shell-Cracking Mien, if you don't have a modifier, you find one. I imagine in this case, your critter would be using its HD + highest ability modifier in a roll-off vs the Teramach level + Teramach Strength modifier. Now if I know my high level Teramachs like I think I do, I would bet on the Teramach every time in this fight.

In regards to Protagonism-Devouring Legend Singularity, it neither unmakes, destroys, nor traps a soul. It dissipates the creatures essence and prevents it from re-attaching to a physical form. To simplify, it slaps Amkii's hand away everytime he makes an attempt to reform. This is all in addition to the fact that you never mention that your creature has any capacity to take action while it's dead, and it requires 1 minute of concentration to revive. As written, it physically cannot use its own revival ability.

ben-zayb
2014-07-07, 10:14 PM
I think this bears repeating
Player: He's dead.

DM: No he's not.

Player: Yeah he is.

DM: No he's not!

Player: Yeah huh!

DM: Nuh uh!

Ad infinitum.

One of these days, I'm really gonna make a class named "Special Snowflake".

SS: I use X effect on you!
AtI: Nuh uh. Immune to X due to Y!
SS: Yeah huh! My X is specially different! X doesn't count as that effect and bypasses that!
AtI: Nuh uh! My Y is specially different! Y doesn't count as that effect and bypasses that!
SS: Yeah huh! My X is specially different! Outright Immunities don't work!
AtI: Nuh uh! My Y is specially different! Outright Piercing effects don't work!
SS: Yeah huh! My X is specially different! It bypasses ALL Immunities, you see, including that!
AtI: Nuh uh! My Y is specially different! Iy bypasses ALL Piercing effects, you see, including that!
SS: Yeah huh!
AtI: Nuh uh!

Ad Infinitum

With homebrew, it's not about finding a specific effect that will render you moot. It's about the time it takes to search the internetz for that combination of preexisting abilities that will render you moot. If TO characters can do it, then it's likely only a matter of time and effort for homebrew to do it too with mechanically more elegant methods.

As it is, this creature has no "Special Snowflake"-type of Immunity (it means it bypasses that thing that bypasses that thing that... you get the point) to:
Ability Damaged / Ability Drained / Ability Burned / Energy Drained (yeah, DvR is run of the mill immunity in this case)
Blinded/Deafened, or any other condition relying on disruption of senses (oh, boy, homebrew loves to explore this one too!)
Confused (the mind**** variety where such effect is never against your will, for some reason)
Grappling / Pinned / Staggered / Cowering / Dazed / Paralyzed / Stunned / Immobilized / Nauseated, or any other action denial, really
Panicked / Frightened (never against your will when you want to flee)
Mind-Affecting effects that "changes the way her mind works" (directly lifted from the Compulsion subschool, no less)
Attacks that target your HD
Attacks that target your Speed or your ability to move that isn't forced movement
Attacks that target your spellcasting/SLA/magical abilities
Attacks that target your attack and damage options (and ability to even make attacks or deal damage)
Attacks that target your divine qualities themselves
Attacks that target your True Immortality itself
Attacks that target your saves (and ability to even do saves)
Attacks that target your ability score (not limited to damage/drain/burn)
Attacks that target your skills, ranks, modifiers (and ability to even do skills)
Attacks that target your feats (and ability to use those feats)
Attacks that target your alignment
Temporal clone shenanigans to precede the AtI and be the one with the True Immortality (that's even possible without homebrew, I think)


And that's barring all creative stuff that the playground comes up with (e.g. your attacks/etc. target yourself instead, your soul ceases/vanishes (not trapped,):smallwink:

So, yeah. Sad reality is that you got the idea in reverse. If you stat it with actual values, you just gave someone that ticket to kill it! That's why you're more likely to see people asking help on how to kill gods than Lady of Pain

Jormengand
2014-07-08, 07:48 AM
You know, rather than actually trying to make Amkii truly immortal, it's more tempting never actually to use it in a game, and just use him as a ban list (if it can kill Amkii, you're not allowed to use it!)

But what the hell, let's do this:

Shell-cracking: Doesn't work; only triggers when a roll you make is opposed by Amkii, Death-is-Death doesn't require a roll. I could add that Amkii automatically passes any test he is called upon to make regarding True Immortality.
Protagonism-Devouring: While True Immortality specifically calls out Unname, I think it's more than reasonable to assume that "Even if it it had been completely erased from time, space and existence itself" means it doesn't stop it resurrecting at full capacity.

Also, if an effect would prevent Amkii from taking an action, (note that it normally creates a lifeless clone of Amkii, incapable of acting) surprisingly enough, it works... for 20 minutes, after which Amkii gets bored of it. ("If an affect somehow stops Amkii from performing actions, or a specific type of action (such as a Temporal Stasis spell), this only remains the case for a maximum of 20 minutes. He is then immune to the effect for a further 20 minutes.")

Special Snowflake: Again, I'm assuming we aren't allowing classes whose sole purpose is killing Amkiii.

Ability damaged/drained: If you did manage this, Amkii could shrug it off 1/day by taking a minute to do so (which, for the record, is the point of that ability). If you knocked it comatose, it'd stay down for 20 minutes, then be immune to the coma for 20 minutes - ample time to reform itself.

Blinded/Deafened: Last 20 minutes, before he gains 20 minutes' immunity from them. Assuming the cause of the blindness/deafness isn't reinstated, it's back to full capacity.

Confused: As Blindness/Deafness, also how is confusion not mind-affecting, which deities are immune to?

Grappling and co: Doesn't stop him in the long term.

Panicked: Deity, also only lasts maximum 20 minutes.

Mind-affecting stuff: Uh, DEITY?

Attacks that make me lose HD, I guess?: Wait, these exist? And DMs allow them? That's fine, because even if you do kill Amkii with them, it comes back in perfect health instantly, and if you don't, it can shrug them off with its one-minute reformation ability.

Attacks that reduce speed: Last 20 minutes; Amkii knows D door and Greater Teleport, has ridiculous fly speed, can shrug them off with reforming ability.

Attacks targeting ability to do stuff: Last 20 minutes, then it's immune for 20 more.

Attacks targeting divine qualities: This might be a good point, and I'll write it in.

Attacks targeting True Immortality: Fail; either stop Amkii removing 100 NL damage next round or imprison the user depending on nature.

Attacks targeting saves: Don't matter if you can't do anything when its saves are down.

Attacks targeting ability score: Can be shrugged off with reformation.

Attacks targeting other things: Can be shrugged off with reformation; don't actually stop Amkii from hitting you with a stick.

Temporal Clone: Amkii was the first cause and is eternally existing. "Before Amkii existed" does not exist.

The point here is yes, you can stop Amkii for a while. We know that (knock it out, shove it in lava, leave for a while). But you can't actually kill the bastard, or permanently impair it. It will be back.

ben-zayb
2014-07-08, 08:15 AM
The point here is yes, you can stop Amkii for a while. We know that (knock it out, shove it in lava, leave for a while). But you can't actually kill the bastard, or permanently impair it. It will be back.The point here is we'll be moving goalposts for eternity given people would be willing to. Someone suggests a way, Amkii gets edited. As I said before, it's homebrew. It's a matter of time and effort to counter this. You might as well say Schrodinger's monster. :smallamused:

Case-in-point: Auto-repeating, SR-bypassing, immunity-piercing, maddening scream (Yep, mind-affecting). Immunity? Pierces. It. All.
AtI: Nuh uh!
SS: Yuh uh!
Ad Infinitum.

Primal Fury
2014-07-08, 08:20 AM
I just want to point out that, without actually meaning to, I totally predicted this conversation. It really DID devolve into "Yuh huh! Nuh uh!", albeit a more articulate form of it. :smalltongue:

ben-zayb
2014-07-08, 08:21 AM
I just want to point out that, without actually meaning to, I totally predicted this conversation. It really DID devolve into "Yuh huh! Nuh uh!", albeit a more articulate form of it. :smalltongue:

And that's two post + 1 repost, to boot. I guess we need to post some version of that again, because the message apparently still isn't sent across. *shrugs*

Jormengand
2014-07-08, 08:22 AM
The point here is we'll be moving goalposts for eternity given people would be willing to. Someone suggests a way, Amkii gets edited. As I said before, it's homebrew. It's a matter of time and effort to counter this. You might as well say Schrodinger's monster. :smallamused:

Now, see, I think there's a misconception or two here:

- DM is using unofficial monster implies that players are allowed to use some homebrew.
- Players are allowed to use some homebrew implies that players are allowed to use all homebrew, ever.

As I've said before, things designed just to kill Amkii are all very well, but not actually relevant. I certainly wouldn't allow the Teramach in my game, having read what it does, for example.

ben-zayb
2014-07-08, 08:28 AM
Now, see, I think there's a misconception or two here:

- DM is using unofficial monster implies that players are allowed to use some homebrew.
- Players are allowed to use some homebrew implies that players are allowed to use all homebrew, ever.

As I've said before, things designed just to kill Amkii are all very well, but not actually relevant. I certainly wouldn't allow the Teramach in my game, having read what it does, for example.Hmm... I'm not sure where you're getting that "designed just to kill Amkii". I doubt Xefas have an idea who that deity was when making his Teramach. Mythos classes are powerful, as do many other famous brews, but they aren't explicitly for deity hunting purposes.

If the goal was to prevent those players without these homebrews from killing Amkii, then yeah. They have to pull some TO shenanigans, but other than that, you're in the clear.

Primal Fury
2014-07-08, 08:56 AM
If you are so against this creature dying, then why even stat it out? A thing doesn't explicitly NEED stats to be used in a game.

Jormengand
2014-07-08, 08:57 AM
If you are so against this creature dying, then why even stat it out? A thing doesn't explicitly NEED stats to be used in a game.
So you can fight it, but not kill it. And it can fight you too. As I said before:

"Sure, you can knock it out for however long, but it will get back up and it will do a set amount of damage, either with its greatsword or 20th-level cleric casting. It will not go all Lady of Pain on you and kill you before you can even say contingent raise dead. You can fight and defeat it."


Hmm... I'm not sure where you're getting that "designed just to kill Amkii". I doubt Xefas have an idea who that deity was when making his Teramach. Mythos classes are powerful, as do many other famous brews, but they aren't explicitly for deity hunting purposes.

If the goal was to prevent those players without these homebrews from killing Amkii, then yeah. They have to pull some TO shenanigans, but other than that, you're in the clear.

The teramach wasn't who I was thinking of so much as your hypothetical "Special Snowflake" when I wrote "Designed to kill Amkii." Still, the teramach is clearly designed with killing the unkillable in mind.

Primal Fury
2014-07-08, 09:06 AM
So you can fight it, but not kill it. And it can fight you too. As I said before:

"Sure, you can knock it out for however long, but it will get back up and it will do a set amount of damage, either with its greatsword or 20th-level cleric casting. It will not go all Lady of Pain on you and kill you before you can even say contingent raise dead. You can fight and defeat it."

Okay, cool. But why does it matter whether or not you can kill it permanently?

Jormengand
2014-07-08, 09:10 AM
Okay, cool. But why does it matter whether or not you can kill it permanently?

Because, RAW, a high-level party can go around and kill all the gods of pretty much any of the settings, basically screwing over all divine casters and completely ruining everything.

Plus, the idea of something that you can get rid of temporarily but not kill is potentially a useful plot device.

Primal Fury
2014-07-08, 09:14 AM
Because, RAW, a high-level party can go around and kill all the gods of pretty much any of the settings, basically screwing over all divine casters and completely ruining everything.
That seems an odd thing to be worried about, considering that can only happen if the DM actually lets it happen.


Plus, the idea of something that you can get rid of temporarily but not kill is potentially a useful plot device.
Fair enough.

Nanoblack
2014-07-08, 09:22 AM
At this point why even give this ability to a specific creature? You've basically got "plot armor, the creature". Why not make it a spell or an item? Seems like it would be more flexible of a concept that way.

Jormengand
2014-07-08, 11:32 AM
At this point why even give this ability to a specific creature? You've basically got "plot armor, the creature". Why not make it a spell or an item? Seems like it would be more flexible of a concept that way.

Amkii is more of a conceptual thing than something I'm going to throw straight into a game. That's why I pretty much gave it 20 HD, high stats, Solar casting and a big sword as well as the number of feats/skills appropriate for its HD/HD and INT, and then spent the rest of my time making the True Immortality thing.

The trouble with a spell is that if it's an Xth level spell, the PCs will learn it as soon as they hit 2X-1'th level. If you make it a ninth-level spell and the PCs are only 1st level and not going to get much higher, then one might wonder why said person isn't just Astrally Projecting themselves and throwing a fireball at the party rather than making a low-level guy immortal and sending him at the party until kingdom come.

As for an item, it's basically the same as making it a creature only you have to safeguard against it being taken off. I mean, if I want it to be applied to another creature, I can apply it to another creature.

Nanoblack
2014-07-08, 12:25 PM
I may have misrepresented my point. It seems at this point, you're more homebrewing the true immortality ability and the rest of the creature is moot. Even then, the ability amounts to "the dm doesn't want this creature to die" and so it wont. Anything less than that and it's inevitable that determined players will find a way to kill it, and that's exactly how you wind up with a series of pointless revisions as portrayed in the "nuh-uh, yes-huh" situations above.

Jormengand
2014-07-08, 12:37 PM
I may have misrepresented my point. It seems at this point, you're more homebrewing the true immortality ability and the rest of the creature is moot. Even then, the ability amounts to "the dm doesn't want this creature to die" and so it wont. Anything less than that and it's inevitable that determined players will find a way to kill it, and that's exactly how you wind up with a series of pointless revisions as portrayed in the "nuh-uh, yes-huh" situations above.

If a player has an ability that allows them to kill Amkii, I probably wasn't allowing them access to it in the first place. Again, I can change the rest of the creature - of course the True Immortality is the important bit: like I said Amkii itself is just a thought experiment.

Yes, there is quite likely something, somewhere, that can kill Amkii. However, if it's actually written out in a way better than "Amkii can't die. No, even if you have an ability that says it can. Look here, I'm the DM and I say it can't die," then it's more likely to be taken seriously.

ben-zayb
2014-07-08, 01:43 PM
The teramach wasn't who I was thinking of so much as your hypothetical "Special Snowflake" when I wrote "Designed to kill Amkii." Still, the teramach is clearly designed with killing the unkillable in mind.Again, I'm not sure where you're getting that "designed to just kill Amkii". SS is a parody of horrible self-gratifying homebrews, if you will. It's "Yeah uh", the class; it will pierce anything not because it's meant to specifically target it, because it simply pierces anything. The fun part is that it can do that with any method of attack. Yes, that attack too, and it can't be stopped by that. No, not even then. Not even that.

Yes, there is quite likely something, somewhere, that can kill Amkii. However, if it's actually written out in a way better than "Amkii can't die. No, even if you have an ability that says it can. Look here, I'm the DM and I say it can't die," then it's more likely to be taken seriously.Eh..But that's what you just did. It's actually better written that way, since despite not actually putting that exact phrase in print, the abilities are pretty much summarized like that anyway (only much more confusing, loopholed, and goalpost-moving). I don't have stats for the ocean, yet I sure can see someone furiously punching or swinging his greataxe through it. He sure felt the waters parting and splashing, but he isn't really doing anything significant to "harm" the ocean.

Maybe it would be far better writing if, in addition to just singling out each possible "Nuh uh"s, there's an actual attempt at making some grand fluff description behind each of those clauses... something the characters can at least digest, appreciate, or bask at in sheer awesomeness. That definitely sounds like better writing to me.

Otherwise, it just looks like Amkii the Ineffable-because-I-anticipated-most-of-your-attack-points-and-will-retroactively-add-other-clauses-on-its-true-immortality-in-case-you-figure-out-a-method-that-will-make-true-immortality-not-so-true-after-all.

Jormengand
2014-07-08, 01:49 PM
Otherwise, it just looks like Amkii the Ineffable-because-I-anticipated-most-of-your-attack-points-and-will-retroactively-add-other-clauses-on-its-true-immortality-in-case-you-figure-out-a-method-that-will-make-true-immortality-not-so-true-after-all.

Editing is a valuable skill, and one that people need to do more; if something doesn't work, then you change it. It's not cheating, it's just fixing things that don't work.

Adam1949
2014-07-08, 01:50 PM
Reading through this, it seems that Amkii was created... mostly as a mental exercise? I am confused by the overall reason for his existence.

If he is meant to be able to be fought, but not killed, then as many people have said previously it is much easier to give GM Fiat against their killing abilities.

If he is meant to be a benchmark against characters, than it is unfair; "Oh my, the Teramach can do this one thing that can kill a technically-unkillable being, better ban the class! O hai wizard, I didn't see you there!"

In my personal opinion, it seems that the only purpose of Amkii is as a collection of rules, a list of how characters in 3.5 can slay something and thus how to counter it. If that is your goal, Jormengand, then you can simply have stated that as your goal; otherwise you seem to be antagonistic to the rest of the thread for finding loopholes. As for the rest of the thread, it also sounds antagonistic for Jormungand finding ways to counter said ideas that could be used.

That is my two cents.

ben-zayb
2014-07-08, 02:27 PM
Editing is a valuable skill, and one that people need to do more; if something doesn't work, then you change it. It's not cheating, it's just fixing things that don't work.It largely depends on whether one edits stat in the middle of combat, which is possible since a smart player can still resort to some TO RAW things that can apparently pierce through, as demonstrated by the Terminator derived suggestion

Jormengand
2014-07-08, 02:49 PM
It largely depends on whether one edits stat in the middle of combat,
Does this look like the middle of combat to you? You're fighting a Jormengand, roll initiative?

which is possible since a smart player can still resort to some TO RAW things that can apparently pierce through, as demonstrated by the Terminator derived suggestion

The what now suggestion?

Debihuman
2014-07-08, 03:23 PM
He can be eradicated with a thought by any deity with higher divine rank. He doesn't die, he's just removed from existence.

Silly people trying to stat up gods.

Debby

Jormengand
2014-07-08, 03:28 PM
He can be eradicated with a thought by any deity with higher divine rank. He doesn't die, he's just removed from existence.

Silly people trying to stat up gods.

Debby

I'm not seeing this in the divine rules. Where are you reading it?

Debihuman
2014-07-08, 04:18 PM
Rank 21+: "These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god."

An overdeity could simply renege consent on Amkii's divine ranking.

Amkii only has Divine Rank 0 so technically he shouldn't have ANY salient abilities. He doesn't get them until he is Rank 1.

Debby

Jormengand
2014-07-08, 04:23 PM
In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god."

An overdeity could simply renege consent on Amkii's divine ranking.

Debby

First, not all pantheistic systems. Second, nowhere does it say that they can withdraw consent once they've given it. Even if they could, this would be an effect which caused Amkii to lose its divine rank, which is negated (or at least, the effects lessened).

Regarding the edit, who said that TI was an SDA any more than normal regen, or indeed the special qualities found on normal monsters are?

Debihuman
2014-07-08, 04:36 PM
I haven't bothered to read up on deity rules so I presumed that True Immortality was a salient ability. If not, then it's just a DM fiat and probably doesn't fit in with anyone else is doing.

If you want to put that in your homebrew, that's fine, but it's a bit much to expect anyone else to want it.

BTW, I've seen people ask for creatures with infinity in stats too. Same bad design feature. If the PCs can't kill it and it's not going to affect them, why bother? If it is going to affect them, then your PLAYERS have an absolute right to complain that you are cheating. Either way, it's not going to be fun.

Debby

Jormengand
2014-07-08, 04:39 PM
I haven't bothered to read up on deity rules so I presumed that True Immortality was a salient ability. If not, then it's just a DM fiat and probably doesn't fit in with anyone else is doing.
You're in the homebrew design sub-forum. That's like saying that because some creatures have an ability that no other creature has, that's "Cheating".



If you want to put that in your homebrew, that's fine, but it's a bit much to expect anyone else to want it.

BTW, I've seen people ask for creatures with infinity in stats too. Same bad design feature. If the PCs can't kill it and it's not going to affect them, why bother? If it is going to affect them, then your PLAYERS have an absolute right to complain that you are cheating. Either way, it's not going to be fun.

Debby

As I said, a creature that can be fought and defeated but not killed might make for an interesting plot device. Or maybe there is a way of defeating it, and you have to get to such-and-such an artifact, but when it's fighting you on every step of your journey, it becomes that much harder to get to it.

Primal Fury
2014-07-08, 05:33 PM
First, not all pantheistic systems. Second, nowhere does it say that they can withdraw consent once they've given it. Even if they could, this would be an effect which caused Amkii to lose its divine rank, which is negated (or at least, the effects lessened).
Okay wait. So if a creator deity, likely the most powerful force in the multiverse, came along and said "Amkii. You have been found guilty of being way too OP. I revoke your status as a deity," Amkii's response would be "Lolnope :smalltongue:"? Is that what you're saying?

Jormengand
2014-07-08, 05:36 PM
Okay wait. So if a creator deity, likely the most powerful force in the multiverse, came along and said "Amkii. You have been found guilty of being way too OP. I revoke your status as a deity," Amkii's response would be "Lolnope :smalltongue:"? Is that what you're saying?

Well, It'd lose its SR and CHA deflection to AC for the duration of the effect (id est, forever). But basically, yes.

Debihuman
2014-07-08, 05:51 PM
You're in the homebrew design sub-forum. That's like saying that because some creatures have an ability that no other creature has, that's "Cheating".

No, I'm saying that a creature that has an ability that makes it unkillable, all-knowing, or all-powerful is kinda cheating to your players. I don't care for those OMGYOUCAN'TPOSSIBLYBEATTHIS kinda creatures. They're only interesting to the DM creating it. And yes, when you give a creature infinity in a skill or ability, that is "cheatiing." It also happens to make it the antithesis of fun to unleash on pretty much everyone. They're not fun to critique either.


As I said, a creature that can be fought and defeated but not killed might make for an interesting plot device. Or maybe there is a way of defeating it, and you have to get to such-and-such an artifact, but when it's fighting you on every step of your journey, it becomes that much harder to get to it.

Interesting for a very short time. Fun, probably not. A little frustration is good. Big frustration with no payoff -- now that's just like torture. It's like slogging through mud for days to find Al Capone's Secret Vault (when the big reveal was that it was EMPTY). It sucks all the joy out of the entire experience.

Debby

1pwny
2014-07-08, 08:31 PM
Listen, we've decided that I-don't-even-care-what-his-name-is is unkillable. Yay! Can we do something interesting now, instead of being stuck here, wasting our collective time?

:smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongu e::smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue::smallton gue::smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue::smallt ongue::smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue::smal ltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:

I love small tongues!

Primal Fury
2014-07-08, 08:44 PM
Well, It'd lose its SR and CHA deflection to AC for the duration of the effect (id est, forever). But basically, yes.
So... even entities explicitly more powerful than Amkii cannot kill it. I'm not sure I understand the point of that. I get why mortals shouldn't be able to kill it, but why does this apply to other deities as well?

Fizban
2014-07-09, 04:34 AM
A nice phrase to use here is "deal with the problem at the source."^ If you have a problem with players being able to kill everything at high levels, then use fiat to say that it can't be killed without the mcguffin. If you refuse to use fiat then you should stop playing dnd at such high levels, because the system breaks down and can only be controlled by fiat. Being able to fight the creature in some other way is irrelevant, as there are already other creatures that are intended to be dealt with the same way and they can appear at any level when the encounter is "stave off this guy and then go find the mcguffin." This Amkii is just a higher level Tarrasque with a longer list of immunities, but they serve the same role aside from the Tarrasque being meant for a lower level where the game is slightly less bonkers.

Regarding Teramach vs. Amkii, Teramach wins. This is because weather you like it or not, both the unkillable-ness and the kill anything-ness are written as absolute abilities that will automatically move the goalposts or edit themselves for any new situation. When this sort of rules conflict appears in any game, specific trumps general. Immunity to dying is more general since it applies to anything that would try to kill you, which could be anything, while killing anything regardless of immunities is more specific as few things are immune to killing. Alternatively, the aggresive ability wins because it struck first and when the infinite loop ends it's either destruction 1 point ahead or tied (you could say the Teramach is 50% effective then, but I'm sure he has more than 1 attack per round). One could also take the entropy approach where in any clash of perfect destruction and defense the destruction wins because reality is inherently moving towards destruction. I'm pretty sure most dnd settings include some form of this end of time return to chaos elder evils whatever so it's applicable enough.

If you wish it to be destroyable only by a specific thing, then the easiest way to end any arguments is to say what that is in the description (or whatever means the party is supposed to use to deal with it permanently). Without that the monster is unfinished. The only reason I can think of to not do so is because you assume that the players will find some way and don't want to give them ideas, but that's terrible game design*. One does not write a mystery without leaving clues (multiple redundant clues in fact, preferably several times what you think the players will notice because they won't), one does not write a puzzle without a solution, one does not write a puzzle monster without a solution.

^which I'm going to over-use until I forget about it

*If it is assumed the players can read the statblock. . . don't let them read the statblock? The only reason the Tarrasque and other unkillable monsters can be exploited so easily by specific tactics is because people just read all the books and found the loopholes. If a group of players with no knowledge of the statblock or access to the internet engaged the Tarrasque in-game they would not have an easy time dealing with it. "If it has stats we can kill it. . .. if we're allowed to read the stats and cross-reference all rule-books with a forum discussion."

Jormengand
2014-07-09, 04:47 AM
A nice phrase to use here is "deal with the problem at the source."^ If you have a problem with players being able to kill everything at high levels, then use fiat to say that it can't be killed without the mcguffin. If you refuse to use fiat then you should stop playing dnd at such high levels, because the system breaks down and can only be controlled by fiat. Being able to fight the creature in some other way is irrelevant, as there are already other creatures that are intended to be dealt with the same way and they can appear at any level when the encounter is "stave off this guy and then go find the mcguffin." This Amkii is just a higher level Tarrasque with a longer list of immunities, but they serve the same role aside from the Tarrasque being meant for a lower level where the game is slightly less bonkers.
And Amkii is designed to be a Tarrasque-equivalent which actually works.


Regarding Teramach vs. Amkii, Teramach wins. This is because weather you like it or not, both the unkillable-ness and the kill anything-ness are written as absolute abilities that will automatically move the goalposts or edit themselves for any new situation. When this sort of rules conflict appears in any game, specific trumps general. Immunity to dying is more general since it applies to anything that would try to kill you, which could be anything, while killing anything regardless of immunities is more specific as few things are immune to killing. Alternatively, the aggresive ability wins because it struck first and when the infinite loop ends it's either destruction 1 point ahead or tied (you could say the Teramach is 50% effective then, but I'm sure he has more than 1 attack per round). One could also take the entropy approach where in any clash of perfect destruction and defense the destruction wins because reality is inherently moving towards destruction. I'm pretty sure most dnd settings include some form of this end of time return to chaos elder evils whatever so it's applicable enough.
Uhm... you're philosophising, but none of what you're saying is supported by how the descriptions of the rules are actually written out.

When you say "Destruction one point ahead or tied," that's nonsense. If I use an ability once, and you stop it once, that's "Tied" but it's clear that you've stopped the ability. "Tied" here means "Amkii wins." And it's clear from the text that for each thing the teramach can do, Amkii has a way of stopping him.



If you wish it to be destroyable only by a specific thing, then the easiest way to end any arguments is to say what that is in the description (or whatever means the party is supposed to use to deal with it permanently). Without that the monster is unfinished. The only reason I can think of to not do so is because you assume that the players will find some way and don't want to give them ideas, but that's terrible game design*. One does not write a mystery without leaving clues (multiple redundant clues in fact, preferably several times what you think the players will notice because they won't), one does not write a puzzle without a solution, one does not write a puzzle monster without a solution.

Amkii is in thought-experiment stage at the moment. I haven't decided what terrible evil artifact of doom-doom is required to kill it.


^which I'm going to over-use until I forget about it

*If it is assumed the players can read the statblock. . . don't let them read the statblock? The only reason the Tarrasque and other unkillable monsters can be exploited so easily by specific tactics is because people just read all the books and found the loopholes. If a group of players with no knowledge of the statblock or access to the internet engaged the Tarrasque in-game they would not have an easy time dealing with it. "If it has stats we can kill it. . .. if we're allowed to read the stats and cross-reference all rule-books with a forum discussion."

See, people play teramachs and things-that-can-kill-the-tarrasque anyway, so I might as well make Amkii immune to them.

ben-zayb
2014-07-09, 05:58 AM
Does this look like the middle of combat to you? You're fighting a Jormengand, roll initiative?Of course not, but this seems like a very good simulation of what will likely happen. Because, tell me, what will you actually do if you used your Pre-Retcon Amkii (aka AMKII the not-so-Ineffable) after one of your players actually managed to use one of the already RAW suggestions (and more, if they can TO enough) and put the deity in its place?

The what now suggestion?Temporal shenanigans. Of course, you're "the first cause" Retcon doesn't match up with the fluff of being Achaekek II, not to mention the actual "in the beginning there was only Chaos" (hi there, LN god!) that is legit 3.5 fluff. But sure... DM fiat can also mean "I'll change any established fluff to suit my pet's needs for True Immortality, because reasons"! :smallwink:

By the way, cloning still works, because the creature doesn't actually gain True Immortality when it already exists with the ability in the first place. Though feel free to DM fiat a retcon if you must, while the players aren't looking! :smallwink:

If I use an ability once, and you stop it once.Any RAW citations? There is none, because 3.5 doesn't have any of those "i'm immune. yes, even if you bypass this I'm still immune". This is "Thicket of Blades vs Tumble" all over again. We already told you, these are absolute abilities that will atuomatically move goalposts, and the only way you can resolve that is with... wait for it... DM fiat

Jormengand
2014-07-09, 06:03 AM
Of course not, but this seems like a very good simulation of what will likely happen. Because, tell me, what will you actually do if you used your Pre-Retcon Amkii (aka AMKII the not-so-Ineffable) after one of your players actually managed to use one of the already RAW suggestions (and more, if they can TO enough) and put the deity in its place?
Temporal shenanigans. Of course, you're "the first cause" Retcon doesn't match up with the fluff of being Achaekek II, not to mention the actual "in the beginning there was only Chaos" (hi there, LN god!) that is legit 3.5 fluff. But sure... DM fiat can also mean "I'll change any established fluff to suit my pet's needs for True Immortality, because reasons"! :smallwink:

By the way, cloning still works, because the creature doesn't actually gain True Immortality when it already exists with the ability in the first place. Though feel free to DM fiat a retcon if you must, while the players aren't looking! :smallwink:

Amkii is only Achaekek MK II with the whole "Not dying" thing. Also, I was more likely to use it in my own setting - I mean, in legit 3.5 fluff, Amkii doesn't exist in the first place.

If you create something, then it gains any qualities it has by virtue of you creating it - before you created it, it didn't have those qualities, and now it does.

ben-zayb
2014-07-09, 06:26 AM
Amkii is only Achaekek MK II with the whole "Not dying" thing. Also, I was more likely to use it in my own setting - I mean, in legit 3.5 fluff, Amkii doesn't exist in the first place.Oh, kinda like DM fiat! Now I get it!


If you create something, then it gains any qualities it has by virtue of you creating it - before you created it, it didn't have those qualities, and now it does.Again... can we please have a RAW citation for that?

Jormengand
2014-07-09, 07:52 AM
Oh, kinda like DM fiat! Now I get it!
Oh, kinda like a homebrew setting! Now I get it!

Seriously, 3.5 fluff has no more bearing on Amkii than it does on the God-Emperor of Mankind, and I have no idea why you keep saying it does.


Again... can we please have a RAW citation for that?

If something is created, it gains any qualities it has because it's just been created. I mean, that's like saying that humans don't contain water just because the description of humans doesn't say they do. There are no rules suggesting whether or not things gain qualities when you create them, because that should be blindingly obvious from the fact that they didn't have them before, and now they do. I mean, that's the freaking definition of gaining something.

ben-zayb
2014-07-09, 09:28 AM
Oh, kinda like a homebrew setting! Now I get it!

Seriously, 3.5 fluff has no more bearing on Amkii than it does on the God-Emperor of Mankind, and I have no idea why you keep saying it does.At least you are finally aware that what your trying to do is just a needlessly complicated DM fiat. That cleared up a lot of things.

If something is created, it gains any qualities it has because it's just been created.Circular logic. That is, in addition to no RAW citation.

I mean, that's like saying that humans don't contain water just because the description of humans doesn't say they do.Non sequitur? "Water" isn't a special quality, it's a component of humans. Not to mention fantasy game rules don't even necessarily have to subscribe to RL rules.

There are no rules suggesting whether or not things gain qualities when you create them, because that should be blindingly obvious from the fact that they didn't have them before, and now they do. I mean, that's the freaking definition of gaining something.So, they gain qualities when you create them, because they only gain qualities when you create them. That's really your explanation why the clone, being a clone, didn't just have the abilities of its original all along? I already pointed out the circular logic, didn't I?



Jormengand, you can twist it any way you like, but what you're doing is still DM fiat. It's not a dirty phrase, the same way "house rule" isn't. So I really don't see any reason to deny its existence. It doesn't even hinder RPing opportunities, like at all.

Jormengand
2014-07-09, 09:34 AM
At least you are finally aware that what your trying to do is just a needlessly complicated DM fiat. That cleared up a lot of things.
All homebrew is DM fiat. It's just written down in a pre-agreed manner such that it's meaningless actually to call it that.

Circular logic. That is, in addition to no RAW citation.
Non sequitur? "Water" isn't a special quality, it's a component of humans. Not to mention fantasy game rules don't even necessarily have to subscribe to RL rules.
So, they gain qualities when you create them, because they only gain qualities when you create them. That's really your explanation why the clone, being a clone, didn't just have the abilities of its original all along? I already pointed out the circular logic, didn't I?

Okay, let me break this down:

When an action is performed such that something has a quality it did not have before, it is said to have "Gained" this quality
Before AMKIII is created, it doesn't have a quality.
After AMKIII is created, it has a quality.
Therefore an action has been performed such that AMKIII has a quality that it did not have before.
Therefore AMKIII has gained a quality.

That, good sir, is not circular logic.

ben-zayb
2014-07-09, 09:49 AM
Yes, we've been through that. Your players agreed on DM fiat that the deity can't be vanquished. Good that you are aware.

When an action is performed such that something has a quality it did not have before, it is said to have "Gained" this quality
Before AMKIII is created, it doesn't have a quality.
After AMKIII is created, it has a quality.Before AMKIII is created, nothing doesn't have a quality. There's no it, because there's obviously no AMKIII.
After AMKIII is created, it has a quality.

Jormengand
2014-07-09, 10:01 AM
Yes, we've been through that. Your players agreed on DM fiat that the deity can't be vanquished. Good that you are aware.
For someone who says it's not a bad thing, you sure are zealous in your attempts to use it aggressively.

Before AMKIII is created, nothing doesn't have a quality. There's no it, because there's obviously no AMKIII.
After AMKIII is created, it has a quality.

And it's precisely because it doesn't exist that it doesn't have a quality. Things which don't exist, by definition, don't have any qualities.

Primal Fury
2014-07-09, 10:09 AM
All homebrew is DM fiat. It's just written down in a pre-agreed manner such that it's meaningless actually to call it that.
Then by that logic, all the game rules are DM fiat, since the DM decided to let them work that way instead of changing them to fit his or her own wishes.

This is a weird conversation. :smallconfused:

ben-zayb
2014-07-09, 10:12 AM
For someone who says it's not a bad thing, you sure are zealous in your attempts to use it aggressively.Yup. And?
And it's precisely because it doesn't exist that it doesn't have a quality. Things which don't exist, by definition, don't have any qualities.Logically, yes. But in D&D, doesn't work that way. Because there's no it yet. Before AMKIII existed, it's not yet a creature, it's just AMKIII the idea, and so wouldn't count for the purpose of the "another creature" that didn't originally have the ability. The moment that it becomes a creature (defined by the rules) via cloning, it simply has the quality.

Jormengand
2014-07-09, 10:20 AM
Then by that logic, all the game rules are DM fiat, since the DM decided to let them work that way instead of changing them to fit his or her own wishes.

This is a weird conversation. :smallconfused:

Yeah, I know. But it's the only logic by which Amkii could possibly be conceived to be DM fiat, so I'm rolling with it.


Yup. And?
And... that's pretty self-contradictory and hypocritical?

Logically, yes. But in D&D, doesn't work that way. Because there's no it yet. Before AMKIII existed, it's not yet a creature, it's just AMKIII the idea, and so wouldn't count for the purpose of the "another creature" that didn't originally have the ability. The moment that it becomes a creature (defined by the rules) via cloning, it simply has the quality.
If an effect caused a creature with true immortality to appear, that creature would have gained true immortality through its creation. I could edit Amkii again to make this point even more blindingly obvious, but then you'll accuse me of DM fiat, even though that makes no sense and is totally irrelevant here.

If you actually came here with any reason other than to accuse me of random things which are completely irrelevant to the situation, state your purpose. Otherwise, please leave.

ben-zayb
2014-07-09, 10:35 AM
And... that's pretty self-contradictory and hypocritical?Did I say DM fiat is bad? I'm merely reiterating what everyone else is saying about the ability being needlessly complicated to begin with, when it can simply be stated as DM Fiat anyway.

If an effect caused a creature with true immortality to appear, that creature would have gained true immortality through its creation. I could edit Amkii again to make this point even more blindingly obvious, but then you'll accuse me of DM fiat, even though that makes no sense and is totally irrelevant here.The creature would simply have True Immortality through its creation, so retconning is actually suggested. It wouldn't be an accusation, it would be a statement of a simple fact.

If you actually came here with any reason other than to accuse me of random things which are completely irrelevant to the situation, state your purpose. Otherwise, please leave.Nobody is accusing you of anything, although plenty are talking about not-so-random things that are relevant to the situation.

Primal Fury
2014-07-09, 12:13 PM
Yeah, I know. But it's the only logic by which Amkii could possibly be conceived to be DM fiat, so I'm rolling with it.
Well... It kind of is DM Fiat though. You could replace most of the text in that ability with "He doesn't die because I say so," and leave most things unchanged. If you can do that, it is going to sound a lot like DM Fiat.

Jormengand
2014-07-09, 01:11 PM
Well... It kind of is DM Fiat though. You could replace most of the text in that ability with "He doesn't die because I say so," and leave most things unchanged. If you can do that, it is going to sound a lot like DM Fiat.

That's like saying that "Hekatonkheires have 100 arms because I say so" is DM fiat. I only say so because it's written in the damn monster description.

Primal Fury
2014-07-09, 01:35 PM
That's like saying that "Hekatonkheires have 100 arms because I say so" is DM fiat. I only say so because it's written in the damn monster description.
The one hundred arms of the Hekatonkheires do not prevent other characters killing them or affecting them in most significant ways, they just make it very difficult. What you've made here is a creature that cannot be killed or controlled, even by the most powerful beings in existence (which I still find weird and silly). That sounds a lot more like "You can't do X because I said so. Neener neener neener." than having a bunch of extra arms does.

I question even making a stat block to begin with. Why not say all efforts against him are fruitless until the characters possess the artifact, THEN his stats come into play, and they can meaningfully affect him?

Jormengand
2014-07-09, 01:39 PM
The one hundred arms of the Hekatonkheires do not prevent other characters killing them or affecting them in most significant ways, they just make it very difficult. What you've made here is a creature that cannot be killed or controlled, even by the most powerful beings in existence (which I still find weird and silly). That sounds a lot more like "You can't do X because I said so. Neener neener neener." than having a bunch of extra arms does.

I question even making a stat block to begin with. Why not say all efforts against him are fruitless until the characters possess the artifact, THEN his stats come into play, and they can meaningfully affect him?

Tell me, if I knocked you out for 20 minutes, would you say I had not "Meaningfully affected" you (or, if you had been trying to kill me, your attempts to do so)?

Primal Fury
2014-07-09, 02:48 PM
Tell me, if I knocked you out for 20 minutes, would you say I had not "Meaningfully affected" you (or, if you had been trying to kill me, your attempts to do so)?
Little ol' me? Sure. That must have been a pretty good punch. But for an immortal super-god? 20 minutes isn't a particularly long amount of time, so no, I wouldn't call that "meaningful". Which reminds me... why did you choose 20 minutes?

Jormengand
2014-07-09, 03:14 PM
Little ol' me? Sure. That must have been a pretty good punch. But for an immortal super-god? 20 minutes isn't a particularly long amount of time, so no, I wouldn't call that "meaningful". Which reminds me... why did you choose 20 minutes?

20 minutes was just a convenient amount of time - long enough for you to wipe the floor with any Clerics of Amkii floating about, shove yourself onto another plane and protect yourself from Amkii's Discern Location, but not enough for you to go out and save the world while Amkii's not looking.

The_Final_Stand
2014-07-09, 05:09 PM
It's worth noting that "Cannot be killed" does not mean "cannot be dealt with". It is likely that he still feels pain. And healing a broken bone in an instant simply means it can be broken again that much quicker.

I imagine something like Molag Bal's quest in Skyrim, wherein you hit a guy with a mace until he dies, then is resurrected by aforementioned Daedric Prince until he gives in.

Possibly stake him like a vampire. Can't heal the hole in your heart until the thing in the heart has been removed. Or add more stakes until he's nailed to a mountain.

Create an Elixir of (Almost but Not Quite) True Immortality, drink it (or give it to a sufficiently disaffected minion), and watch the eternal war.


Wow I have issues.

Jormengand
2014-07-09, 05:19 PM
Create an Elixir of (Almost but Not Quite) True Immortality, drink it (or give it to a sufficiently disaffected minion), and watch the eternal war.

"So what now, Jack Sparrow, would we be two immortals locked in an epic battle until judgement day and the trumpet sounds?" (http://youtu.be/GrXBnMF9Hf4?t=1m14s)


I imagine something like Molag Bal's quest in Skyrim, wherein you hit a guy with a mace until he dies, then is resurrected by aforementioned Daedric Prince until he gives in.

"Or you could surrender."

Fizban
2014-07-10, 07:11 PM
And Amkii is designed to be a Tarrasque-equivalent which actually works.
The Tarrasque already works. As I pointed out at the end of the post, the only reason people can kill the Tarrasque is because the players have already read the statblock, so they can metagame kill it without any effort. If the characters in game actually gathered together every known method off afflicting a creature and tested them one-by one until they found ability drain via Allip summoning or another missed immunity, then they just earned that kill, same as if they managed to trap it in some other way. Denying them the kill at that point is DM fiat. I'd personally give them a hefty bonus on whatever search methods or divinations they tried to find the mcguffin so that their research time spent testing attacks on the Tarrasque wasn't wasted.

Uhm... you're philosophising, but none of what you're saying is supported by how the descriptions of the rules are actually written out.
The first part is based on the rules of Magic: The Gathering, the only competitive game I'm familiar with that includes unstoppable vs. immovable arguments and infinite loops (and is judged by a person rather than a computer). Since DnD is not competitive and all but a few books are written with complete disregard for the others, there are no rules written for this situation. MtG is quite thorough about it and Specific Trumps General can be applied to an unstoppable vs. immovable argument from any game so rejecting it is tantamount to saying "no, DM fiat." The second is a perfectly reasonable result for terminating an infinite loop: tally up how many times each ability triggered compared to the other and assign a percentage based on it. The third is philosophising for people that don't like MtG or want something "higher" than a rule.

When you say "Destruction one point ahead or tied," that's nonsense. If I use an ability once, and you stop it once, that's "Tied" but it's clear that you've stopped the ability. "Tied" here means "Amkii wins." And it's clear from the text that for each thing the teramach can do, Amkii has a way of stopping him.
Actually backing up a bit for more detail on this: you're switching feet here. First it's "I" (Amkii) using the un-killable ability and the Teramach stopping it, then you reverse and say it's the Teramach using kill-anything and Amkii stopping it. This is why you can't just declare the infinite loop ending and get an actual result: you just changed the order of events to suit your preferences. The correct order of events is: Amkii has un-killable as a passive ability and the Teramach pierces it, triggering an infinite loop as both abilities re-write themselves to win. The Teramach started it and since the abilities trigger back and forth once each and the loop is arbitrarily stopped, he will never "lose," at worst he will tie. Since the Teramach can repeat the attack next round, if there is any fairness in the percantage or a tiebreaker he will eventually succeed (assuming he doesn't get interrupted by dying himself). If the infinite-loop is always stopped and always ties and the Teramach always loses the tiebreaker than it's not following a fair set of rules for resolving rules conflicts, it's just DM fiat (which as has been pointed out is perfectly fair, as long as you admit it-otherwise you're claiming to follow a rule and then ignoring it, which would be cheating, at DnD).

See, people play teramachs and things-that-can-kill-the-tarrasque anyway, so I might as well make Amkii immune to them.
You've already said that you'd ban Teramachs and any other effect that could kill your Amkii, so why are you writing it assuming that those classes are allowed?

For dealing with Tarrasque-class foes, some amount of experimention (in live combat!) will always be required to figure out what will work for "dealing" with them. Someone mentioned grappling pretty quickly and I like that quite a bit: big creatures usually don't have Freedom of Movement since they win grapples to begin with, and Amkii has no natural weapons or grapple abilities. A golem of some sort with DR 20 and a grapple check of +50 will pin it to the ground forever, all it needs is a dead magic area/antimagic field and there's no way out. A Stone Colossus has all these and more, a CR 24 construct craftable by a level 25 caster.

1pwny
2014-07-10, 08:43 PM
As I said before;

Listen, we've decided that I-don't-even-care-what-his-name-is is unkillable. Yay! Can we do something interesting now, instead of being stuck here, wasting our collective time?
Yeah, can we just - I don't know - solve world hunger?

BTW, what does "DM Fiat" actually mean/stand for? :smallconfused:

Adam1949
2014-07-10, 08:53 PM
BTW, what does "DM Fiat" actually mean/stand for? :smallconfused:

"Fiat" is Latin for 'let it be done', and in a debate essentially means 'let us ignore the feasibility of this event occurring, and instead focus on what would happen should it occur'. In the case of tabletop games, "DM fiat" is when the DM (or GM, Storyteller, what-have-you) decides on an action without the use of dice, coins, cards, or any other sort of in-game mechanism. It's a polite shorthand for 'because the DM said so, it goes even without him having to back it up'.

An example of good DM fiat is when the DM lowers the amount of damage a critical hit does against a PC to the point it doesn't instantly kill him; technically it isn't what happened, but the DM said it should go like that.

A bad example is when the DM claims that you fail an attack, or a skill check, or some other thing, without giving any mechanical reason why. "You failed because the lock has a DC 300, see it's printed right here" isn't fiat, but "you failed because I said you failed" IS fiat.

Primal Fury
2014-07-10, 09:57 PM
Yeah, can we just - I don't know - solve world hunger?
Why? Talking about mechanics and ideas is interesting. I'm sure there's no ill will here, just people talking. I don't see the problem. :smallsmile:

Adam1949
2014-07-10, 10:08 PM
I'm sure there's no ill will here...

I wouldn't say that... from an outsider's view, this thread actually looks quite caustic.

Primal Fury
2014-07-10, 10:16 PM
20 minutes was just a convenient amount of time - long enough for you to wipe the floor with any Clerics of Amkii floating about, shove yourself onto another plane and protect yourself from Amkii's Discern Location, but not enough for you to go out and save the world while Amkii's not looking.
Okay then. What is Amkii's purpose? Is he like an Inevitable? Is he meant to prevent some sort of world-changing action, or protect something incredibly important? What's the in-setting reason for this all-encompassing immortality?


I wouldn't say that... from an outsider's view, this thread actually looks quite caustic.
We must have very different definitions of "caustic." While the debate may seem a bit heated, I'm not sensing much vitriol. Of course... that might be due to the strictness of the forum moderators... and the profanity filters. :smalltongue:

JKTrickster
2014-07-10, 11:53 PM
Honestly, this sounds more like a force of nature than a God.... it kind of just exists. Things it does...it just does. There's really nothing else to it.


On a different tangent...

I think there's kind of a romance behind "slaying a God" no? Like they're almighty and everything, but sometimes it's fun to knock them down a peg or two. Kind of like why the God of War series was so popular, no?

Magma Armor0
2014-07-11, 12:02 AM
Kill? no. Moderately inconveniece? probably.

Option 1: obtain several thousand reloading traps that deal blablabla damage every 20 minutes. This option, quite frankly, is dumb, and just plain annoying.

Option 2: Amkii is, in fact, huge. Knock him unconscious for 20 minutes. Using obnoxious amounts of magic, seal him in adamantium. Then have lots of persisted antimagic fields set up, preventing a full disjunction for escaping.
Voila: can't move. He's still alive, we just encased him in carbonite like Han Solo.

Also, isn't there a mind swap ability somewhere? that technically doesn't control his actions, and therefore gets around the line
"If an effect would allow another creature to, in any respect, control Amkii's actions (which is to say, force Amkii to take actions against its will), it doesn't. Instead, Amkii gains control of the creature who used this ability (again, not necessarily the one who might have controlled it) for the duration, and to the extent, given in the original ability's description."

Also still loses to a diplomacy check to make it your friend. But that's because diplomacy is dumb.

Also unclear how polymorph interacts with Amkii. Does it turn him into an immortal toad or whatever?

Jormengand
2014-07-11, 08:44 AM
I don't have the willpower to respond to every post separately, but I'm just going to point out that D&D is not, in fact, Magic the Gathering, and does not actually use the same rules.


Okay then. What is Amkii's purpose? Is he like an Inevitable? Is he meant to prevent some sort of world-changing action, or protect something incredibly important? What's the in-setting reason for this all-encompassing immortality?
See, I was thinking something similar to the original Achaekek; having an assassin of the gods might be quite a cool idea.


Kill? no. Moderately inconveniece? probably.

Option 1: obtain several thousand reloading traps that deal blablabla damage every 20 minutes. This option, quite frankly, is dumb, and just plain annoying.

Amkii will, if knocked out for 20 minutes, become immune to damage for 1 round and D door out. If it becomes conscious during that time, it will still D door out.


Option 2: Amkii is, in fact, huge. Knock him unconscious for 20 minutes. Using obnoxious amounts of magic, seal him in adamantium. Then have lots of persisted antimagic fields set up, preventing a full disjunction for escaping.
Voila: can't move. He's still alive, we just encased him in carbonite like Han Solo.
It can teleport anywhere it likes as an Ex ability 1/day.


Also, isn't there a mind swap ability somewhere? that technically doesn't control his actions, and therefore gets around the line

I think that an ability that literally allows you to step into someone's body and use it as your own counts as "Controlling" that person.


Also still loses to a diplomacy check to make it your friend. But that's because diplomacy is dumb.
Yeah, diplomacy is dumb, though Amkii is never actually specified to speak or understand any languages. Would probably use Rich's fix anyway.



Also unclear how polymorph interacts with Amkii. Does it turn him into an immortal toad or whatever?

Only if it wants to be turned into an immortal toad, otherwise the effect fails. It would probably stop him removing 100 points of non-lethal damage because "If an effect would remove Amkii's True Immortality or Regeneration, it doesn't. Instead, Amkii doesn't remove 100 points of nonlethal damage during the next turn."

Primal Fury
2014-07-11, 09:06 AM
I don't have the willpower to respond to every post separately, but I'm just going to point out that D&D is not, in fact, Magic the Gathering, and does not actually use the same rules.
Well you've gotta look somewhere when novel mechanics the game was never meant to deal with pop up. :smalltongue:


See, I was thinking something similar to the original Achaekek; having an assassin of the gods might be quite a cool idea.
You mean for killing other gods? Or things that make the gods angry?

I feel like Amkii would make more sense as a powerful Inevitable, because that's basically what it sounds like. Even if he would be destroyed beyond all repair, he is rebuilt again. That way, even the Teramach's ability would have no effect on him because it's essentially a new character. Just an idea though.

Jormengand
2014-07-11, 09:16 AM
Well you've gotta look somewhere when novel mechanics the game was never meant to deal with pop up. :smalltongue:


You mean for killing other gods? Or things that make the gods angry?

I feel like Amkii would make more sense as a powerful Inevitable, because that's basically what it sounds like. Even if he would be destroyed beyond all repair, he is rebuilt again. That way, even the Teramach's ability would have no effect on him because it's essentially a new character. Just an idea though.

Yeah, but "In another game" is not the best place for it, methinks. :smalltongue:

I meant the latter, though there's no reason that this couldn't include the former.

Mm, perhaps. Like I said, the actual statblock attached to this thing is temporary, and subject to change when I actually need to use it for something.

Fizban
2014-07-12, 05:06 AM
I don't have the willpower to respond to every post separately, but I'm just going to point out that D&D is not, in fact, Magic the Gathering, and does not actually use the same rules.

Well you've gotta look somewhere when novel mechanics the game was never meant to deal with pop up.
Yeah, but "In another game" is not the best place for it, methinks.

If you can quote an actual rule from a DnD book or even an FAQ that covers infinite loops and impossible abilities then by all means use it, I've never seen one (and I've read the Rules Compendium several times for fun). The only rule DnD has for that stuff is DM fiat, which you have consistently refused to admit is the only way to make a creature fully invincible against all possible homebrew. If you want to do it within the rules you're gonna need rules to deal with his infinitely self re-writing ability. As I said, MtG is the only competitive non-computer game I know of that has infinite loops and other shenanigans (other TCGs might but it's also the most popular), and it uses a number of widely applicable common sense rules for dealing with them. Where else are you going to borrow rules from if it's not another game? Hire a lawyer to write them? :smallsigh:

I'm also taking back my agreement that mentioning entropy was philosophising. Entropy is not a philosophy, it's more a physical property of the universe. I was gonna leave some room for magic, but if fluff keeps bringing it up then they must figure magic runs out eventually and is subject to entropy like everything else. So it's not a philosophical argument, it's a physical principle with which you can justify a rule in game. Just like how falling and swords to the face deal damage.

I'd also like to go on record that I don't think Teramach is really appropriate for a player class. Even the fluff itself suggests that you're not really supposed to be in control of the power, and are more a manifestation of rage and destruction in the universe. Searching out a powerful Teramach and luring it into proximity of an un-killable creature would also be a valid method of "dealing" with it, with the bonus of having to survive close proximity to two hugely destructive forces instead of one. But having one on the team rather defeats the purpose of those monsters and the DM would not be encouraged to make them the center of the campaign.

In any case I'm more focused on the lack of rules argument here. You said yourself that you wouldn't allow Teramach, but continued arguing that the Teremach's kill-anything ability wouldn't work. Instead, you could make a better statement by simply prefacing the statblock with "Not suitable for games that include abilities meant for killing un-killable targets, because that would be silly :smalltongue:" But you can't win on a rules basis when it's perfectly legal to write more abilities that are just as arbitrary as Amkii: someone already wrote it for the Teramach. The game has no rules for dealing with two arbitrary effects like this, and the closest rules are ignored because they're not DnD, so nothing happens until DM fiat.

Oh, and thanks to Adam above for explaining "DM fiat," we do love our trade slang around here and there can be a lot to learn. I'll admit to being a little peeved at the moment: I think I've been reasonable in all my arguments and I love me some high level rules discussion, but I feel that Jor has ignored my arguments without giving them due consideration. I presented three different rules and rather than a rule-based response was given the brush-off. Jor, if you do not intend to respond to my arguments then please be more direct so that I know when to leave. If you wish to edit Amkii's abilities to deal with every possibility, the above preface is the fastest one you could make. :smallamused:

Jormengand
2014-07-12, 05:42 AM
If you can quote an actual rule from a DnD book or even an FAQ that covers infinite loops and impossible abilities then by all means use it, I've never seen one (and I've read the Rules Compendium several times for fun). The only rule DnD has for that stuff is DM fiat, which you have consistently refused to admit is the only way to make a creature fully invincible against all possible homebrew. If you want to do it within the rules you're gonna need rules to deal with his infinitely self re-writing ability. As I said, MtG is the only competitive non-computer game I know of that has infinite loops and other shenanigans (other TCGs might but it's also the most popular), and it uses a number of widely applicable common sense rules for dealing with them. Where else are you going to borrow rules from if it's not another game? Hire a lawyer to write them? :smallsigh:

I've already written out why I think Amkii wins against the Teramach, and you haven't even responded to it. MtG's rules on infinite loops have nothing to do with D&D, and therefore you have to look at the actual wording of the rules in question (which in any case do not actually form an infinite loop, but then I didn't expect you to realise that).

And I'm pretty sure I categorically stated that I wasn't necessarily going to be using homebrew and Amkii in the same game anyway. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17738664&postcount=19)

Fizban
2014-07-12, 09:58 AM
My apologies, I thought it would go without saying that if I was weighing in on that side of the argument I agreed with the previous posters. Amechra, General Patton, Nanoblack, and Ben-Zayb covered why the wording of the Teramach's ability should already trump that of Amkii's immortaility, and how all both sets of abilities are written if not explicitly then with the clear intent of re-writing themselves until they get their way.
I had intended to not re-quote from the first page but very well- Your direct response of:

Shell-cracking: Doesn't work; only triggers when a roll you make is opposed by Amkii, Death-is-Death doesn't require a roll. I could add that Amkii automatically passes any test he is called upon to make regarding True Immortality.
Protagonism-Devouring: While True Immortality specifically calls out Unname, I think it's more than reasonable to assume that "Even if it it had been completely erased from time, space and existence itself" means it doesn't stop it resurrecting at full capacity.
is the only bit I see where you directly refuted the Teramach's abilities, but. . . you didn't. Shell-cracking applies against any absolute effect that you can't overwhelm normally, which absolutely includes an ability that goes on for paragraphs about how it can't be stopped not even then. Protagonism-devouring had a quite clever soul-wasting setup that from the sounds of it you hadn't originally accounted for. I see you have since edited in a line where he automatically passes any check and revives at "full capacity," but this is once again a perfect effect that shell-cracking will bypass by setting up a second roll that ignores that line and Death-is-Death Conclusion's "extrapolate as neccesary" is far more honest about re-writing the rules as needed. Assuming the DM/Amkii would re-write his abilities during combat (otherwise he would die), we have an infinite loop. This is when I joined in and suggested my 3 rules/reasons for why the Teramach should be winning this conflict, based on specific vs general, terminating infinite loops, and the law of entropy. I was late to the party though so I can understand why it looked out of place.


MtG's rules on infinite loops have nothing to do with D&D
The list below looks quite a bit like what happens when a series of abilities trigger in MtG, I think I can apply them just fine, although the assumption that the DM will edit Amkii mid-combat is admittedly not a real ability.

I believe the point which incensed me most was when Ben-Zayb was quoting Primal Fury, who said that the player and DM would go back and forth ad infinitum. Your response:

It's fine: this is what happens:

- Amkii dies at 300 NL damage from Teramach's effect.
- Amkii's ability ("It cannot, in any way, die.") activates.
- Teramach's effect ("Creatures who cannot be killed, such as the Tarrasque, are killed anyway") activates.
- Amkii's ability ("If an effect would kill Amkii, it doesn't.") activates.
- Amkii is set to 300 NL damage.
- Note that even if Amkii had been killed, he would have come back to life anyway. His death is not "Interrupted by an effect that does not require an action to perform"; he dies, sure, and then comes back afterwards.
This is ignoring the fact that the Teramach's abilities are every bit as arbitrary and self-editing as Amkii's, actually even more so. Amkii is not set to 300 damage because the Teramach kills it anyway, and Amkii does not come back to life because the Teramach said no in whatever increasingly convoluted way was necessary after Amkii's latest update. You never properly refuted this, and the argument was dropped because you made it clear that no game including Amkii would have such abilities or that any such abilities would in fact be DM fiat'd into not working.

Which was actually said as far back as post #4, so. . . why hasn't it been added to the first post? The thread title delivers a challenge, Ben-Zayb immediately noted homebrew status invites existing homebrew to show up in post #3, the first post has been edited to counter various tactics from much farther down the thread, but the main conceit of
I'm assuming the DM won't allow homebrew effects which say "This can kill Amkii the Ineffable, and when it does it stays down."
is still absent. Without that qualifier the monster is entirely killable and the thread is just a discussion of it's long list of immunities, as Nanoblack said, "you're more homebrewing the true immortality ability and the rest of the creature is moot." Perhaps more importantly, every single person who shows up is going to immediately think the same arguments from page 1 and either repeat them again down the line or see that they've been done and lose interest. I don't expect you to convince me you can out-lawyer the Teramach because it's better written. However, I do hope you can at least agree that putting your own core assumptions in the first post so people know what the thread is actually going to be about is a good idea.

TL;DR

I've already written out why I think Amkii wins against the Teramach, and you haven't even responded to it. MtG's rules on infinite loops have nothing to do with D&D, and therefore you have to look at the actual wording of the rules in question (which in any case do not actually form an infinite loop, but then I didn't expect you to realise that).
It seems you are correct, there are no infinite loops involved. The Teramach already won because his abilities are written to be more encompassing and will already penetrate all of Amkii's immunities, so I don't need to bring up any rules precedents to resolve it. Please update the OP to reflect the assumption that Teramachs and other immortal-killing powers do not exist alongside Amkii.

Tanuki Tales
2014-07-14, 06:31 AM
Wouldn't all of this have been done simply (and thus these arguments prevented) by slapping a modified Soul-Locked creature template onto something sufficiently built to combat a party? I mean, that quasi-template literally runs on fiat. Just switch to Pathfinder's Ghost Rejuvenation rules, shorten the time spent dead and just continually tell the players they can't divine the "one true method" to put it down.

1pwny
2014-07-14, 07:51 PM
Wouldn't all of this have been done simply (and thus these arguments prevented) by slapping a modified Soul-Locked creature template onto something sufficiently built to combat a party? I mean, that quasi-template literally runs on fiat. Just switch to Pathfinder's Ghost Rejuvenation rules, shorten the time spent dead and just continually tell the players they can't divine the "one true method" to put it down.

Hindsight is 20/20. Unless you're Chuck Norris, in which case its 9001/20. :smallsmile:

ImNotTrevor
2014-07-15, 03:05 PM
So if I understand correctly, I'm-a-key is supposed to be:
"Unkillable juggernaut-monster that the DM will use to demonstrate that he is infinitely more clever than those dirty Players."

Uh...ok. Consider your ego stroked?

The best way to handle it is to change the wording of his ability, and possible its name:

Deus Ex Machina: I'm-a-Key is a plot-device and as such will railroad the characters into finding the mcguffin instead of creatively solving problems. Thus, I'm-a-Key does not die and is not harmed or stopped in any way unless the DM allows it to occur.

Jormengand
2014-07-15, 03:12 PM
So if I understand correctly, I'm-a-key is supposed to be:
"Unkillable juggernaut-monster that the DM will use to demonstrate that he is infinitely more clever than those dirty Players."

A pity, really, that you do not in fact understand correctly.


As I said, a creature that can be fought and defeated but not killed might make for an interesting plot device. Or maybe there is a way of defeating it, and you have to get to such-and-such an artifact, but when it's fighting you on every step of your journey, it becomes that much harder to get to it.

ImNotTrevor
2014-07-15, 03:45 PM
A pity, really, that you do not in fact understand correctly.

Please read the Deus-Ex-Machina ability. It does what you want, with simpler language, joking attitude aside. He is a plot device and cannot be surmounted until the players complete your plot as you desire them to.

Railroading your players means removing their ability to choose. They can either find the mystic thing, or lose. It's bad DM policy.

Nanoblack
2014-07-15, 09:42 PM
Knock him out using your preferred means of disposal, put him in a box made of walls of force, put box in permanent antimagic field. Problem solved.

ImNotTrevor
2014-07-15, 10:40 PM
The above solution also works. According to RAW, anti magic fields suppress supernatural and spell-like abilities as well. There is also no saving throw against it.

A sufficiently optimized Psion with the right powers could also move him to a plane or demi plane of their own creation(via Genesis) that does not have functioning Time. Since no time passes within the space, Amkii would remain in a frozen stasis, unable to take any action since there is no time within which he can take actions. Even instantaneous effects require at least the time it takes for the thought to form and the decision to use the ability to be made.

According to Amkii's stats as written, both of those would shut him down effectively.

Deus-Ex-Machina as his only ability, however, nullifies that solution entirely. Without any changes to it. It is the ultimate ability. It trumps every other ability.
I have solved your monster problem. Have a great day.

Kazyan
2014-07-15, 10:47 PM
I'm surprised at how bothered people are getting at Amkii.

ImNotTrevor
2014-07-15, 11:27 PM
I'm surprised at how bothered people are getting at Amkii.

I'm not particularly bothered by the concept itself, but rather the demand that we take it seriously as a thing. The DM wants it to be the ultimate threat. Ok, it is. Creating unbeatable monsters as a DM isn't impressive. It's not even cool. It makes most of the people here roll their eyes and say, "DM fiat" because it is a simpler solution. Same results. No headache. Doing it by the book (except this bit I made up) is just intellectual self-gratification. Proving a point that does not need proving. "The DM can make an unkillable creature with stats!" Yes they can. Your point?

After that it devolved into bickering about whether or not his exercise was childish, except nobody was so callous as to say that directly. Until now, anyways.

Basically, Amkii is pointless. He serves no purpose other than to prove that OP is good at making SCP-682 for D&D. You did it. Golf clap. Everyone go home. OP did a good job making the unkillable thing. He gets a pat on the back. Good job, buddy.

I'm pretty sure that was the real point. To be congratulated for being so clever as to make a thing that doesn't die, without using pure DM powers and no reasoning. Good job. You did it. We are proud of you. It still has a few kinks to iron out, but they are not severe.

Otherwise, good job OP. You made the unkillable thing.

Adam1949
2014-07-16, 01:08 AM
-snip-

I thought of it more as an exercise in 'hmm, what are the many ways a PC can near-effortlessly defeat a target, and how many can we list'? I don't think Jormungand means for this to be taken seriously (unless he does, in which case I apologize to him), and while your ability does get the job done, both it and the replies you have made are needlessly inflammatory and impolite.

No one has called anyone stupid or foolish in this thread. Thus, this thread is fine (although I will agree that it seems to be akin to an escalating arms-race). Your comments, however, circumvent the game that we are playing and ruin the game... because, really, that's all this thread is, in my eyes; a game to figure out what can be used to defeat a foe, and thus putting it on the list.

Long story short, you're being rude.

Fizban
2014-07-16, 02:36 AM
A sufficiently optimized Psion with the right powers could also move him to a plane or demi plane of their own creation(via Genesis) that does not have functioning Time..
Genesis specifically forbids you from altering the time trait of your demiplane, I think you needed the 3.0 spell version to do that. But there's another idea: drop him in a vat of Quintessence. Bonus points if you use a spell to shrink him first so you don't need as much. An epic spell for reducing the target to fine size would make the required amount of quintessence quite small indeed. Might be cheaper than the Stone Colossus, depending on how much epic spell cheese you need to get the spell to land.

And always remember: for permanent disposal of anything small, you can bag of holding-> stab bag of holding. All contents are lost forever, have fun being a Vestige (I think it's pretty popular for people that get nixed that way to wind up as vestiges if they were interesting enough).

ImNotTrevor
2014-07-16, 08:26 AM
Long story short, you're being rude.

I'll accept that feedback. You're right, I was being unnecessarily combative.

Not sure what got into me.

Sorry, peoples. I was being a jerkface. I promise I am not usually a jerkface.

Note to self: perhaps not wise to post after work.

Carl
2014-07-16, 08:56 AM
The simplest answer would probably be an ability that renders him an invalid target for any effect that would remove any of X abilities or features. If you can't target it with anything like the Teremach's class features they can't kill it.

Jormengand
2014-07-16, 02:35 PM
Knock him out using your preferred means of disposal, put him in a box made of walls of force, put box in permanent antimagic field. Problem solved.

Ex teleport.


The simplest answer would probably be an ability that renders him an invalid target for any effect that would remove any of X abilities or features. If you can't target it with anything like the Teremach's class features they can't kill it.

That would work, except that some things like the Teramach don't target Amkii, they just make the Teramach's attacks kill it when they kill it. Saying Amkii is an invalid target for any attack that would kill it doesn't work either, because you might not know whether or not it's dead until damage is rolled.

Carl
2014-07-16, 05:22 PM
That would work, except that some things like the Teramach don't target Amkii, they just make the Teramach's attacks kill it when they kill it. Saying Amkii is an invalid target for any attack that would kill it doesn't work either, because you might not know whether or not it's dead until damage is rolled.

Except that the attack only has to have to potential to kill it for it to be disallowed if you choose the wording right. Add in a line that allows PC's to voluntarily deactivate any such abilities/spell sub effects/weapon enchantments/e.t.c. even if not normally allowed to do so, just so that they can make attack or use other spell effects without the rule kicking in.

Fizban
2014-07-17, 04:46 AM
Ex teleport.
I see a list of spell-like abilities that includes teleport, spell like abilities are not Ex.

That would work, except that some things like the Teramach don't target Amkii, they just make the Teramach's attacks kill it when they kill it. Saying Amkii is an invalid target for any attack that would kill it doesn't work either, because you might not know whether or not it's dead until damage is rolled.
Dnd has no rules about targeting actually, you can target anyone with anything, it just might not work. MtG has rules about targeting, but you've already said you don't want MtG in your DnD.

Jormengand
2014-07-17, 06:23 AM
I see a list of spell-like abilities that includes teleport, spell like abilities are not Ex.

Dnd has no rules about targeting actually, you can target anyone with anything, it just might not work. MtG has rules about targeting, but you've already said you don't want MtG in your DnD.

"In any case, Amkii can, once per day and by concentrating for 1 minute, reform itself, undamaged, anywhere on any plane."

Also, read the description of any spell, ever. It has a "Target" line, to specify the target, whom you must target with the spell.

Fizban
2014-07-17, 07:21 AM
"In any case, Amkii can, once per day and by concentrating for 1 minute, reform itself, undamaged, anywhere on any plane."

If one could kill Amkii, doing so would still be completely pointless as it would be resurrected again immediately and at full capacity, even if it it had been completely erased from time, space and existence itself, such as through an Unname spell. In any case, Amkii can, once per day and by concentrating for 1 minute, reform itself, undamaged, anywhere on any plane.
The language preceeding the line you quoted, and on all lines above it, implies this effect happens if he is killed and not just whenever: even if I can't say it's wrong, it is sloppy, and should be called out more specifically just like the core premise of not being used in a campaign with abilities that kill un-killable creatures. Nevermind how planar travel is an extraordinary ability other than just because.

Speaking of which, was it ever explained how a dead creature would concentrate without actions, or was that line always meant for use before death? I've also not seen any responses to freezing his time, I assume he just concentrates out of that with non-actions as well. Similarly, excising him via the destruction of a Bag of Holding does not erase or kill him but renders him "lost forever," a fairly conclusive phrase, but I assume you will quote the same line against it anyway and at least in that case it makes some sense (as gating home fixes being lost, though you have to be able to reach the multiverse).

Interestingly, this actually brings my Stone Colossus back to the top of solutions I've seen here. Amkii will never succeed in preventing the Colossus from punching him in the face (grapple check), nor will he succeed on the concentration check to continue his ability (unless he also conveniently ignores the concentration rules, which he currently does not). Just like the Tarrasque though, it's only so easy because I can read the statblock, it would take some proper in-character testing to get to this method and a considerable amount of time to craft the Colossus, so accomplishing it would surely earn the "kill," even if it wasn't what the DM had in mind. Edit: scratch that, re-check the Colossus damage and it is technically possible for the Colossus to roll low enough and Amkii to roll high enough to succeed. I'm not calculating the probability, but extending into infinity it could eventually pull it off against a Stone Colossus. An Iron Colossus does have enough minimum damage on it's slam attack to prevent Amkii's concentration indefinitely, and enough DR to be immune to it's grapple damage (not that it would ever fail a grapple check). Iron's not much more expensive but it does require a level 35 caster, so by that route Amkii might earn his CR.

Also, read the description of any spell, ever. It has a "Target" line, to specify the target, whom you must target with the spell.
Yes, I was just about to edit my post regarding that. I should say rather that the DnD rules regarding targeting are almost non-existant, because they apply only to the caster choosing a target. You will find there are no creature types, spells, or other abilities that prevent targeting, which is the important part for refuting Carl's argument. No, not even an Antimagic Field. The only way to find out if a creature is an invalid target is by casting the spell at the target and watching it fail, which happens after you choose a target.

Even giving Amkii a unique ability preventing targeting would be easily avoided by using an area effect. DnD actually does have a precedent for replacing effects based on targeted spells in Spell Turning, so borrowing MtG rules is not required in this instance. Of course it should be obvious I agree with the stance that the whole creature is better written as "DM fiat," but Carl's use of "invalid target" wouldn't do the job. I'd be interested to know if Carl was thinking of MtG, since in MtG you are actually not allowed to cast a spell at an invalid target, unlike in DnD: that card is stuck in your hand until you have a valid target or find some other way to get rid of it.

Carl
2014-07-17, 09:22 AM
Your forgetting the item rules. You cannot, (for example), target a weapon, shield, or other carried item with an attack, you have to use the special sunder rules, and there are no rules on the SRD (at least under combat, i really need to do a search to check i'm not forgetting anything), for targeting unattended objects or the environment.

So whilst there's no big section titled "targeting" anywhere in the rules, the concept of targeting clearly applies on some level, it's just dealt with on a case by case basis, there would be no problem with such a hypothetical rule including a case relevant statement of what counts as targeting.

Angelalex242
2014-07-17, 09:38 AM
If all else fails, throw this guy up against Pun Pun and see how long he 'lives'.

Alternatively, throw him in the sun.

He takes 1000d6 of fire damage. Okay, fine, it's all nonlethal...but everytime he regenerates with full hp, he takes another 1000d6 fire damage, and thus experiences a fate worse then death.

Bottom of the ocean might work too. He can breathe underwater? Fine, but he can't survive the 200d6 water pressure damage down there...

Option 3:Teleport him to Sigil. Let the Lady of Pain deal with him. Grin evilly.

ImNotTrevor
2014-07-17, 10:28 AM
Spell-Like Abilities

At will: Discern Location, Dimension Door, Dimensional Anchor, Gate (Planar travel only), Greater Dispel Magic, 3/day: Greater Teleport, Heal, Mage's Disjunction 1/Day: Imprisonment (DC 32), Plane Shift



Anti-magic fields disable Spell-like abilities. His teleportation is a spell-like ability, not an Extraordinary Ability.
(Those are two distinct and different things in D&D rules and vernacular, as far as I am aware.)

If you want him to be able to teleport under an anti-magic field, then you have to move one of his teleports to be an Extraordinary ability.


You could also do an ability something like...

Not Of Your World
Amkii is not part of this reality. He has the ability to decide which aspects of your world he will willingly interact with. Amkii effectively treats all attacks, effects, and abilities as illusions which he can believe or disbelieve at will.

(Though worded better than this rushed mess)

This ability means that if the Teramach attacks him, he "disbelieves" in the Teramach. The Teramach is now treated as if he is a disbelieved illusion for the purpose of attacking Amkii. Meaning he does nothing.

Faced with an antimagic field while locked in walls of force? Disbelieve in them. Stroll out of there like a boss.

Wanna kill that guy? Believe in him and smack him around for a while.

Keep his other abilities on top of that and you have something pretty scary.

The artifact is a piece of Amkii's reality that was brought to our world. If you touch Amkii with it, he loses the True Immortality and Not Of Your Word traits. Done. He's killable. Still effing powerful, but killable.

Not sure how that changes the equation, but I'm sure people here will be able to fill me in on technicalities that I'm missing.

Jormengand
2014-07-17, 10:30 AM
If all else fails, throw this guy up against Pun Pun and see how long he 'lives'.

Alternatively, throw him in the sun.

He takes 1000d6 of fire damage. Okay, fine, it's all nonlethal...but everytime he regenerates with full hp, he takes another 1000d6 fire damage, and thus experiences a fate worse then death.

Bottom of the ocean might work too. He can breathe underwater? Fine, but he can't survive the 200d6 water pressure damage down there...

Option 3:Teleport him to Sigil. Let the Lady of Pain deal with him. Grin evilly.

Pun pun: Pazazu and Amkii don't even exist in the same setting. If you're trying some kind of Pazazu-less Pun-pun, fair enough, but... seriously, any problem whose only solution is "Pun-pun" has, for all intents and purposes, no solution.

Throw it in the sun/ocean: "Further, if Amkii is unconscious for over 20 minutes, it immediately wakes up with full hit points. In this case, Amkii is immune to all damage whatsoever for 1 round." and at-will teleportation/plane shifting.

Lady of pain: Still can't actually kill Amkii. Can technically keep knocking it out, but why bother? You also can't teleport Amkii to Sigil. Lady of Pain doesn't exist in the same setting as Amkii. Sigil doesn't exist in the same setting as Amkii.


Anti-magic fields disable Spell-like abilities. His teleportation is a spell-like ability, not an Extraordinary Ability.
(Those are two distinct and different things in D&D rules and vernacular, as far as I am aware.)

If you want him to be able to teleport under an anti-magic field, then you have to move one of his teleports to be an Extraordinary ability.
True Immortality already contains within the text an ex teleport.

Incidentally, NOYW would take away the defeatable-but-not-killable idea, so you may as well give the Lady of Pain a base attack bonus and damage bonus and call it a day.

Angelalex242
2014-07-17, 01:15 PM
Lady of Pain doesn't have to kill him. She can throw his butt in the Mazes. Good luck getting out. Even gods can't get out of the Mazes.

Jormengand
2014-07-17, 01:29 PM
Lady of Pain doesn't have to kill him. She can throw his butt in the Mazes. Good luck getting out. Even gods can't get out of the Mazes.

The Lady of Pain and Amkii both have to exist at the same time, though. :smalltongue:

Adam1949
2014-07-17, 02:48 PM
The Lady of Pain and Amkii both have to exist at the same time, though. :smalltongue:

That's completely arbitrary, though.

Let us say that a prospective GM wishes to use both in their setting; perhaps one is the ultimate symbol-deity of Existence (Amkii) and the other is the ultimate symbol-'deity' of Elimination (LoP). If this were to occur (again, assuming that anyone BESIDES you and your arbitrary decisions on what can and cannot exist together), then what would happen if the two met and gained the other's ire? You need to account for EVERY option, even if it's not an option which 'exists in this theorycrafted setting of mine in which Amkii truly is invincible'. If the LoP and Amkii did meet, what would happen? And don't say 'they never would'; you yourself said that a GM might use Amkii as a plot device, and thus this potential GM might also choose to include the LoP. So, tell us... what WOULD happen?

Jormengand
2014-07-17, 03:05 PM
That's completely arbitrary, though.

Let us say that a prospective GM wishes to use both in their setting; perhaps one is the ultimate symbol-deity of Existence (Amkii) and the other is the ultimate symbol-'deity' of Elimination (LoP). If this were to occur (again, assuming that anyone BESIDES you and your arbitrary decisions on what can and cannot exist together), then what would happen if the two met and gained the other's ire? You need to account for EVERY option, even if it's not an option which 'exists in this theorycrafted setting of mine in which Amkii truly is invincible'. If the LoP and Amkii did meet, what would happen? And don't say 'they never would'; you yourself said that a GM might use Amkii as a plot device, and thus this potential GM might also choose to include the LoP. So, tell us... what WOULD happen?

Far as I can tell, the LoP is not actually statted up enough that she actually does anything to stop Amkii getting out RAW-wise.

Adam1949
2014-07-17, 03:14 PM
Far as I can tell, the LoP is not actually statted up enough that she actually does anything to stop Amkii getting out RAW-wise.

Fair enough, that is a reasonable response.

1pwny
2014-07-17, 05:42 PM
Have we discussed the question: WWIAD?

For those of you not in the know, that means "What Would and Ice Assassin Do?"

If we have discussed it, no need to be extraordinarily literate in your response. I probably won't check back on this in a while, so just putting it out there.

Jormengand
2014-07-17, 05:57 PM
Have we discussed the question: WWIAD?

For those of you not in the know, that means "What Would and Ice Assassin Do?"

If we have discussed it, no need to be extraordinarily literate in your response. I probably won't check back on this in a while, so just putting it out there.

Create an ice assassin only with no TI. The caster would take a DC 32 Imprisonment to the face.

Primal Fury
2014-07-17, 05:58 PM
I just wanted to make it known that all this talk made me want to create a unique Inevitable who fights the characters using the power of Bureaucracy and Rules Lawyering. So there's that. :smalltongue:

Angelalex242
2014-07-17, 06:34 PM
Actually...what happens if you hit this guy with Sanctify the Wicked? Can we at least make him Lawful Good?

ImNotTrevor
2014-07-17, 11:14 PM
Incidentally, NOYW would take away the defeatable-but-not-killable idea, so you may as well give the Lady of Pain a base attack bonus and damage bonus and call it a day.

I disagree. He already isn't defeatable. Only slow-downable. You are going way out of your way to show he can't be defeated even via methods that aren't killing him.

So in actual reality, it made him harder to slow down. However, distracting him with alternative targets or getting him to waste time on one of you while others go after the Magic Stick is just another method of "slow him down a bit" but doesn't require that you hit him at all. It's just as effective as any "knock him out miraculously for 20 minutes which is enough time for you to...have 20 minutes before he appears in front of you anyways because he teleports."

Fizban
2014-07-18, 12:27 AM
Alternatively, throw him in the sun.
Oh nice, hadn't considered that. There's no official damage for the sun of course, but a high enough damage environment will similarly prevent concentration so all you need is the antimagic field to stop the 1 action abilities. Does need to be big enough he can't just move out of it, but if we're using the sun from real life he's pretty borked.

That's completely arbitrary, though.

Let us say that a prospective GM wishes to use both in their setting; perhaps one is the ultimate symbol-deity of Existence (Amkii) and the other is the ultimate symbol-'deity' of Elimination (LoP). If this were to occur (again, assuming that anyone BESIDES you and your arbitrary decisions on what can and cannot exist together), then what would happen if the two met and gained the other's ire? You need to account for EVERY option, even if it's not an option which 'exists in this theorycrafted setting of mine in which Amkii truly is invincible'. If the LoP and Amkii did meet, what would happen? And don't say 'they never would'; you yourself said that a GM might use Amkii as a plot device, and thus this potential GM might also choose to include the LoP. So, tell us... what WOULD happen?
This is why I keep saying those assumptions need to be in the first post.

Jormengand
2014-07-18, 08:16 AM
I disagree. He already isn't defeatable. Only slow-downable. You are going way out of your way to show he can't be defeated even via methods that aren't killing him.

So in actual reality, it made him harder to slow down. However, distracting him with alternative targets or getting him to waste time on one of you while others go after the Magic Stick is just another method of "slow him down a bit" but doesn't require that you hit him at all. It's just as effective as any "knock him out miraculously for 20 minutes which is enough time for you to...have 20 minutes before he appears in front of you anyways because he teleports."

But the whole point is that you should be able to knock him out...


Oh nice, hadn't considered that. There's no official damage for the sun of course, but a high enough damage environment will similarly prevent concentration so all you need is the antimagic field to stop the 1 action abilities. Does need to be big enough he can't just move out of it, but if we're using the sun from real life he's pretty borked.

So basically, in order to defeat Amkii, you're sticking the sun in a homebrewed giant AMF, and also a wall which is immune to the sun so that Amkii can't just fly out of the AMF (or failing that, the sun) and try again?

I would love to see how you propose to actually do this.

Fizban
2014-07-18, 08:54 AM
So basically, in order to defeat Amkii, you're sticking the sun in a homebrewed giant AMF, and also a wall which is immune to the sun so that Amkii can't just fly out of the AMF (or failing that, the sun) and try again?

I would love to see how you propose to actually do this.
No, I've been suggesting a Colossus, but it's pretty much iron-clad (ha, pun!) and I wanted to give props for the 'ol throw 'em into the sun trick. I think everyone's been so wrapped up in mechanics and/or assuming he'll just handwave any environments they hadn't stopped to consider them: props on Angelalex for going there.

And actually if I'm assuming a sun similar to our real world sun, the gravity would be enough that the AMF wouldn't need to be any more than standard size. Shouldn't be hard to make a cheap epic spell for that small of an area and lock it on the target, especially since you're probably using an epic spell to throw him into the sun in the first place. The Colossus just doesn't require any epic spell rulings.

Tanuki Tales
2014-07-18, 09:45 AM
I hate to jump into this...but why are we assuming that Amkii could resist the gravitational pull of a star with its movement speed?

Jormengand
2014-07-18, 10:11 AM
I hate to jump into this...but why are we assuming that Amkii could resist the gravitational pull of a star with its movement speed?

Because of the way that D&D rules for flight work. Which is why this:


And actually if I'm assuming a sun similar to our real world sun, the gravity would be enough that the AMF wouldn't need to be any more than standard size. Shouldn't be hard to make a cheap epic spell for that small of an area and lock it on the target, especially since you're probably using an epic spell to throw him into the sun in the first place. The Colossus just doesn't require any epic spell rulings.

...is utter nonsense. D&D is no more the real world than it is Magic: The Gathering.

Tanuki Tales
2014-07-18, 12:01 PM
Because of the way that D&D rules for flight work. Which is why this:

The normal rules for flight assume a planet with the same gravitational pull as our own Earth. That's why there are explicitly different gravitational plane traits that work differently than the standard rules.

Ergo, with a regular flight speed, Amkii would need to rely on Greater Teleport to get out. Which he'd need to make sure he successfully pulls off before the first minute elapses, at which point he has to save against ~23 million d6 pressure damage (it would probably be way more since the core of the sun is double the magnitude of the ocean's depths).

Angelalex242
2014-07-18, 03:07 PM
So...current strategy so far is equip him with antimagic shackles and throw him in the sun. His one round of invincibility gives him 6 second to appreciate his terror before being roasted at unreasonable temperatures, again.

Network
2014-07-18, 05:57 PM
Gods are immune to Anti-Magic Fields created by mortals. That's in the spell's description. So using that spell won't work against Achaekek in the first place.

Since your point seems to have stats for an unkillable god I keep wondering : why didn't you use good 'ol Elder Evils' trick? Don't have the PCs fight Amkii. They'll find a way to win, you can count on that. If they don't kill Amkii, they'll at the very least find someone who can. The Multiverse is that big. Even if they never plane shift to the plane of shadow, a well of many worlds will ensure they can change setting at will. Instead, the 'stated' Amkii is actually just an aspect, a small fraction of his essence given physical shape. In many cases, elder evils have no game stats and cannot be killed, but their aspects can. Since you don't seem too familiar with the concept, let me explain.

In actuality, Amkii never leaves his divine realm. He tears a small part of himself and sends it against the PCs. They kill it? Fine, that part of himself returns to him and he can send another 20 minutes later. Else, if they succeed at trapping it or similar, the aspect disintegrates either willingly or automatically after a couple hours. The PCs can't kill Amkii ; even if they were to find him in his realm, he would simply curb-stomp them like they were nothing. Other gods may or may not be capable of killing him for true, as may certain artifacts (if that was to happen, stat him as a slightly evolved aspect which only the god/artifact can harm). But, the PCs can keep defeating the aspects, and he's too occupied dealing with things more important than puny little humans. If he's really worried about them, he can just send two, or ask his followers to do the job. That way, the PCs can thwart whatever plans Amkii has for them or for what they try to protect. When they are tired of destroying his aspect, they can ask the help of another deity or negociate their way out. Attacking the god directly is just stupid and will get them killed ; they should be aware of that.

Case in point, the PCs can't kill Asmodeus. Or Atropus. Hell, before epic level they can't even kill Tiamat. They can still stop them from destroying the world, or at least slow them down by a couple millenia.


Lady of pain: Still can't actually kill Amkii. Can technically keep knocking it out, but why bother? You also can't teleport Amkii to Sigil. Lady of Pain doesn't exist in the same setting as Amkii. Sigil doesn't exist in the same setting as Amkii.
There is no official information on the combat potential of LoP. For all we know she's more powerful than Ao, who we at least know to be immune to damage, and she can change the D&D cosmology on a whim for all we know. If she doesn't kill Amkii (or anyone else for that matter, with precious few exceptions), it's because she doesn't want to and nothing else.

Angelalex242
2014-07-18, 07:00 PM
Most of the balance of power of the Gods is that if one god starts being a jackass, all the other gods get to send avatars of their own to remove the jackass.

In short, if this guy sent his avatar to the Prime more then once, he can eventually count on avatars of Heironeus, Pelor, Kord, Bahamut, Elhonna, and everyone else shoving their own divine weapons up his hindquarters. The gods of light are very good at working together as a cohesive team, after all.

If he attacks the evil gods...well, they don't work together well, it's true...but then, they're also EVIL Gods, so the shenanigans pulled in revenge probably won't make him too happy.

It's only a matter of time till this becomes god vs. god. And when that happens...he's only divine rank 0, so far. Ya know what happens to divine rank 0 if they get hit by annihilating strike from a stronger deity?

Even he's done. All his 'unkillable' stuff won't save him from other gods.

Tanuki Tales
2014-07-18, 07:02 PM
Are epic spells pre-epic on the table? Because they could just use a Seed: Dispel or a version of Spell Worm that affects Amkii before dumping him in the sun.

Fizban
2014-07-19, 04:22 AM
Gods are immune to Anti-Magic Fields created by mortals. That's in the spell's description. So using that spell won't work against Achaekek in the first place.
Ah, good catch, but I wouldn't say he gets off so easy if you consider the range of divine rank. Amkii as he is currently presented has only divine rank 0, that of a quasi-deity, hero-deity, or a half-mortal half-deity child. He is unable to grant divine spells nor does he have any salient abilities, and his divine rank isn't even high enough to grant immunity to death effects (DvR1) or imprisonment (DvR6). He cannot send divine visions and has no godly realm, has no more divine power than an Einherjar or Valkyrie, and is unable to function as a god in any real capacity. Weather or not he ignores Antimagic Field depends on weather you consider DvR 0 an actual diety, and while I'll admit that the RAW is technically on his side due to the broad use of the term "deity," I think it's obvious even the OP didn't consider that or he'd have mentioned it by now.

For DMs intending to run epic level games that's a pretty important bit to think about: what exactly do you want divine rank 0 to account for, particularly in regards to Antimagic Fields and other spells that mention "deific" interference? If you want gods to still be a high level goal, DvR0 probably shouldn't count for ignoring stuff that mentions deities. If you want deities to appear and be confrontable in even a mid level game then you could rule that DvR0 does mess with things, and introduce a Hercules character that isn't even level 20 but ignores those effects.

With the RAW that technically even DvR0 is still a deity and thus would ignore Antimagic Field, the Iron Colossus. . . actually I'm pretty sure the Iron Colossus is still the best bet. It doesn't actually need Antimagic Field to interrupt concentration on every single ability, and Amkii's 100 points of regeneration actually hurt him, since he'll never fall unconscious from the Colossus's punching him in the face, and thus never trigger the 1 round of even more invulnerability. Just grabbed up in a giant fist of metal, punched in the face for all eternity.

Wait, let's be safe: two Collosi, one to hold and one to punch, since come to think of it you probably can't ready an action while pinning someone (the holder can be Stone though, it's cheaper and will do the job). Actually the fact that dice are involved brings back the limit->infinity problem, where eventually the Colossi will roll high enough damage long enough (via critical hits) to trigger the "unconcious 20 min->1 round invulnerable" ability. Don't know when, but eventually, and that means they still need epic spell support to block a plane shift, or some sort of probability warp/custom crafting to make the puncher have set damage 54<X<100. Just forcing it to average or even minimum damage would work (Iron was chosen specifically because it's minimum damage of 47 break's Amkii's max concentration check). Heh, using an epic curse on your own Colossi to rig the odds, nice.

Are epic spells pre-epic on the table? Because they could just use a Seed: Dispel or a version of Spell Worm that affects Amkii before dumping him in the sun.
Doesn't need to be pre-epic with CR35. I've been ignoring them since I can't be bothered to calculate and it's too easy: epic magic will of course solve any problem that's not an actual deity (with actual salient abilities), so yeah that'd work. Jor has already stated that that the Sun's gravity is nonsense though. Following the same logic, the Sun will either deal no damage or will deal a max of 20d6, like lava, in which case you'll need to add some epic damage spells to hold him down instead. Although at that point it's probably easier to just build an epic-spell box of force and planar-travel blocker to go with the damage for concentration breaking. You'll need 88 continuous damage per round to break his concentration check without fail: that plus planar travel blocking to stop the 1 SLAs during the 1 round of invulnerability after he falls unconscious (he can't deal enough damage to keep himself unconscious for 20 min, but eh), will prevent concentration on the 1 minute Ex one (though that's still planar travel which would be blocked anyway?).

Or just replace the Colossi with epic spells to immobilize and break concentration. Use three immobilizers with staggered overlapping re-triggering effects to avoid the "no action-prevention" clause: he becomes immune to one but not the next two, and the first re-triggers after his 20 minute immunity wears off. They'll probably have to be researched independently so they're not the exact same effect, rather than three instances of the same spell. A triggered damage spell only needs 44 points to beat concentration, so his regeneration will keep him up. I'm sure the Colossi are much cheaper though, and they don't require any more DM approval than other constructs.

Also, for those of us wondering what the point of the thread was a couple pages ago, it does have one stated goal of evaluating the CR. I'm not familiar with the resultant numbers in epic play because they're so variable, but I've presented a combination CR33/24 monster pair that can be crafted by players and defeats the design goal of making it untouchable at least 1 round out of every 20 minutes. Granted, this is easily defeated by Freedom of Movement, but as of posting it stands. The challenge in the thread title is meaningless since it's backed up by assumed DM fiat banning other homebrew or even established setting personages that might exist, but the next best goal of blocking even that 1 round every 20 minutes is complete.

Network
2014-07-19, 09:38 AM
Ah, good catch, but I wouldn't say he gets off so easy if you consider the range of divine rank. Amkii as he is currently presented has only divine rank 0, that of a quasi-deity, hero-deity, or a half-mortal half-deity child. He is unable to grant divine spells nor does he have any salient abilities, and his divine rank isn't even high enough to grant immunity to death effects (DvR1) or imprisonment (DvR6). He cannot send divine visions and has no godly realm, has no more divine power than an Einherjar or Valkyrie, and is unable to function as a god in any real capacity. Weather or not he ignores Antimagic Field depends on weather you consider DvR 0 an actual diety, and while I'll admit that the RAW is technically on his side due to the broad use of the term "deity," I think it's obvious even the OP didn't consider that or he'd have mentioned it by now.
I wasn't suggesting Amkii was immune to AMF. I was rather suggesting that the premise of the thread (Achaekek can be killed easily, especially in an AMF) is wrong. Thus, Amkii is an immortal substitute for an already immortal entity, which is kind of silly.

Of course, I also think the premise that the Tarasque isn't immortal enough to be invincible ignores the fridge logic of it being the standard monster that every PC group kill when they reach high level. Somehow it dies permanently quite frequently. Hadn't the OP ever wondered how it kept coming back?

Tanuki Tales
2014-07-22, 02:01 PM
Jor has already stated that that the Sun's gravity is nonsense though. Following the same logic, the Sun will either deal no damage or will deal a max of 20d6, like lava, in which case you'll need to add some epic damage spells to hold him down instead.

Just because he said something, doesn't mean he's right.

I already pointed out there are rules for pressure damage that have no cap (meant to be used for deep sea excursions), which (depending where our target gets dropped) could potentially be in the millions of d6s. And that's ignoring the fact that the pressure of the sun is around eight magnitudes greater than that of the deepest spot in our oceans. It's also lowballing handwaving to try and say that the sun would do the same level of damage as lava, when that peaks out at 1100C usually and the surface of the sun is a little over five times that.

Jormengand
2014-07-22, 02:25 PM
Just because he said something, doesn't mean he's right.

I already pointed out there are rules for pressure damage that have no cap (meant to be used for deep sea excursions), which (depending where our target gets dropped) could potentially be in the millions of d6s. And that's ignoring the fact that the pressure of the sun is around eight magnitudes greater than that of the deepest spot in our oceans. It's also lowballing handwaving to try and say that the sun would do the same level of damage as lava, when that peaks out at 1100C usually and the surface of the sun is a little over five times that.

The point remains that unless you can put a wall in the sun(presumably capable of withstanding millions of d6s of damage), Amkii can, RAW, just fly out of the sun. It will take it a while, but then there's the question of how you got it there without teleporting it, which it's immune to.

ImNotTrevor
2014-07-22, 03:09 PM
The point remains that unless you can put a wall in the sun(presumably capable of withstanding millions of d6s of damage), Amkii can, RAW, just fly out of the sun. It will take it a while, but then there's the question of how you got it there without teleporting it, which it's immune to.

Just for giggles, let's calculate how long said "while" is going to take.

The diameter of the sun is 92,960,000 miles.
A mile is 5280 feet.
The sun is 490,828,800,000 feet across.
if Amkii is placed in the center of the sun, he must go half that to reach the surface of the sun and potentially stop taking massive damage every 6 seconds and have enough time to teleport out.
So he must travel 245,409,400,000 feet. His fly speed is 400 feet. Meaning he needs 613,523,500 rounds to escape the sun. If each round is 6 seconds, then 10 rounds is one minute. Meaning Amkii would take 61,352,350 minutes to escape the sun or 1,022,539 hours. Which is 116 years. Except...every other round will actually take 20 minutes because he will be knocked out due to being in the mother effing SUN. Which is the same (my math probably got wonky here but whatever it's for giggles) as adding another 6,135,235,000 rounds. or 613,523,500 minutes. Or even better put, another 1,167 years.
So approximate total "while" that it would take for Amkii to reach the SURFACE of the sun, is 1,283 years.

Yup. If you can devise a way to deposit him in the Sun, then you have successfully defeated Amkii for several lifetimes before he becomes an issue again. By which point you will be long dead, and he won't be your problem anymore.

Granted, Jor made Amkii immune to Teleportation, so you would have to find another way to get him there. But as it stands, "chuck him into the sun" is the best idea we currently have, other than "Colossus Punches Forever."

Network
2014-07-22, 03:14 PM
The point remains that unless you can put a wall in the sun(presumably capable of withstanding millions of d6s of damage), Amkii can, RAW, just fly out of the sun. It will take it a while, but then there's the question of how you got it there without teleporting it, which it's immune to.
Easy : create a porous dome of force that would let light, heat and radiation pass through but not gaz. Create a modified Magnificent Mansion spell that lets you gate inside of it, or otherwise find a way to create a demiplane/extradimensional space that isn't affected by environmental conditions outside the portal and can be gated in. Gate inside the demiplane and trick Amkii into following you. Destroy the demiplane, this will pull Amkii inside the sun, even though he technically didn't teleport. Depending on whether you can take Amkii down or not, you may need to sacrifice a 1st-level wizard apprentice in the process. You can resurrect her later if needed.

Or, if you want to make it even easier, create a custom dome of force spell which lets you change the permeability of the dome at will. Bump the dome into the sun. Gate inside and trick Amkii into following you. Make the dome porous. No need for a demiplane.

For extra protection, dimensional lock, if made permanent, can even block extraordinary teleportation. Even a temporary one will block Amkii for days.

Edit: So, simply, it can be resumed as "if you can't teleport Amkii into the sun, trick him inside".

Edit 2: Oh, and since we're at it, you could simply trap him in a demiplane. dimensional lock can be dispelled though, so you better find a way to prevent divine spellcasting (so he can't dispel it). Once done, this method cannot be undone short of destroying the demiplane. For extra protection, trap Amkii in a demiplane inside the demiplane of dread. Amkii, being only divine rank 0, can't escape Ravenloft ; after all, Vecna had to become a lesser deity to do it. If you believe the Dark Powers have reasons to cast him out, do random evil acts until you become a dark lord, and trick the Dark Powers into making Amkii part of your curse. Batman Gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BatmanGambit) on a cosmic scale.

afroakuma
2014-07-22, 03:34 PM
What is even the point of this thread? Why is this being indulged? There's absolutely no merit to what's presented here, it's just the written-out equivalent of a flowchart where all arrows point to "no."

Jormengand
2014-07-22, 04:06 PM
What is even the point of this thread? Why is this being indulged? There's absolutely no merit to what's presented here, it's just the written-out equivalent of a flowchart where all arrows point to "no."

Which is funny, because you obviously thought it was worth your time to respond to it.

afroakuma
2014-07-22, 04:18 PM
Which is funny, because you obviously thought it was worth your time to respond to it.

I'm hoping there's something more to it than what I'm seeing, which is why I posed a question. It was not rhetorical. That said, your response seems to confirm my suspicions.

Tanuki Tales
2014-07-22, 05:29 PM
The point remains that unless you can put a wall in the sun(presumably capable of withstanding millions of d6s of damage), Amkii can, RAW, just fly out of the sun. It will take it a while, but then there's the question of how you got it there without teleporting it, which it's immune to.

Except there's no RAW that supports you. The Heavy Gravity planar trait assumes that the gravity is only twice the normal gravity and affects movement speed as such. The gravity of a star is far greater than that. And even assuming his speed wasn't completely negated, Trevor already showed it'd take over a millennia for Amkii to get out under his own power through his flight speed.

And he's not immune to teleportation, he can just ignore it as an action (an action you don't specify), but if he's already taken care of where he can't negate it, then he's sent into a star.

At this point, I'm going to chime in with not seeing the point of Amkii mechanically. You should just take the suggestion of making Amkii something even gods can't deal with, but who is otherwise impotent outside of making avatars at his leisure. That way you can just have a tough, but defeatable creature for a party to fight, but which can resurrected by a force that's not going away any time soon.

Jormengand
2014-07-22, 05:44 PM
And he's not immune to teleportation, he can just ignore it as an action (an action you don't specify), but if he's already taken care of where he can't negate it, then he's sent into a star.

No, it can choose whether or not it's affected, which takes no longer than choosing to fail a save when you're allowed to.

In any case, the avatar idea does seem to be better than the actually unkillable idea, not least because it stops adventurers trying to stick it in the sun.

ImNotTrevor
2014-07-22, 06:06 PM
But the avatar idea also breaks the thread title point.

Amkii itself remains unstatted. His avatar has stats and is killable.

If it is statted...you can kill it. Or at least, throw it in the sun and wait for it to come back 1000 years later.

Tanuki Tales
2014-07-22, 06:35 PM
But the avatar idea also breaks the thread title point.

There's no real point to the thread title, which is why this thread has devolved into pointless, barbed arguing.


Amkii itself remains unstatted. His avatar has stats and is killable.

And? Jorm wanted something to harrow the PCs as a plot engine, first and foremost. He wanted something that the players could fight if they wanted to, but could also avoid.


If it is statted...you can kill it. Or at least, throw it in the sun and wait for it to come back 1000 years later.

Amkii would just be able to dissolve and reform the avatar where ever it wanted.

ImNotTrevor
2014-07-22, 07:37 PM
The reply was all one cohesive thought.

ie, the thread title and essential original purpose was "create a thing with stats that cannot be killed or defeated." With the purpose of using said thing to antagonize PC's.

If he wanted to know how to do just the latter of the two goals, he probably could have just asked. Instead he put forth a challenge of "kill my unkillable thing" with the purpose of finding loopholes in his strategy.

Not a terrible idea, really.

Funnily enough, so many loopholes have been found that the easiest thing to do is to make it killable, but respawn very quickly. It amuses me, to be honest.
How do you make the unkillable thing? Don't give it stats, but stat the avatar and let the PC's fight tons of the dang things for fun and profit.

I just find the ultimate conclusion to be somewhat humorous, given the rest of the thread.

1pwny
2014-07-22, 08:37 PM
We should get jedipotter to DM a game with Amkii. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbi ggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Jormengand
2014-07-23, 06:47 AM
We should get jedipotter to DM a game with Amkii. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbi ggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

So, the fighter tries to draw his sword... no! He draws Amkii! The cleric tries to hide from Amkii... no, he hides behind Amkii! And the rogue on the other side of town, buying a drink... how about a nice frothing mug of Amkii?

Amkii is now Orcus. GG.

ImNotTrevor
2014-07-23, 11:25 AM
So, the fighter tries to draw his sword... no! He draws Amkii! The cleric tries to hide from Amkii... no, he hides behind Amkii! And the rogue on the other side of town, buying a drink... how about a nice frothing mug of Amkii?

Amkii is now Orcus. GG.

Silly Jor.

Amkii was Orcus THE WHOLE TIME

http://gifs.gifbin.com/1232550297_Dramatic%20chipmunk.gif

ThatOneGuy79
2014-07-24, 02:04 PM
First, a disclaimer: There will be spoilers in here to my homebrew game. Please, if anyone on here just happens to be part of the Naura world, in the Requiem campaign, PLEASE turn away now.

...


That being said, I'm curious how Amikii would stack up against the BBEG in my 'vicious epic' campaign. It's Pathfinder. All the characters are CR 40. Any homebrew anywhere is allowed. The force that they're up against? Imagine the heart of the TARDIS combined with the Infinity Gauntlet. With a malevolent intellect. It has an ability called Rewrite Reality. In short, it changes ALL of existence to give itself the ability to overcome any challenge. If someone is born/created/always existed that could possibly have a negative impact on the entity, that someone never exists. Anywhere. Ever. And the more powerful something is, the more likely that something falls under the entity's power.

So how do the PCs even face such a thing? Well... in the first session will have a spell cast on them that will protect them. In order for the spell to succeed, it's going to cost the lives and full power of all but three of the deities of my world. And basically all of the dragons.

That being said... how would Amikii fare against it?

Jormengand
2014-07-24, 02:09 PM
That being said... how would Amikii fare against it?

Amkii should be able to ignore it handily, but then it can ignore Amkii ignoring it, and because it can do whatever it likes, it can essentially keep on one-upping Amkii until it succeeds. Yes, literally omnipotent beings can kill Amkii; it's not surprising.

Irk
2014-07-24, 04:57 PM
Is Amkii immune to bull rushing?

Jormengand
2014-07-24, 05:03 PM
Is Amkii immune to bull rushing?

No... *Wonders where this is going.*

Irk
2014-07-24, 07:53 PM
No... *Wonders where this is going.*
So you could push him back with a successful bull rush? (this'll get good, I promise.)

Jormengand
2014-07-25, 06:58 AM
So you could push him back with a successful bull rush? (this'll get good, I promise.)

Aye, that you could. And?

Irk
2014-07-25, 08:28 AM
Well, if I had to kill Amkii, I would have him bull rushed through a gate leading to the Spire (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Outlands). There, he loses all godly abilities, and could be killed by either an ubercharger or the power found at the base of the spire, which is said to prevent life itself. If he loses all godly powers when he is close to the spire, he will no longer be invulnerable. Subverting that would cause some entity like the Lady of Pain to come down and simply remove or imprison him.

Alternatively, one could escape Amkii by moving to Sigil, where he is unable to enter. Then just chill there.

Jormengand
2014-07-25, 08:38 AM
Well, if I had to kill Amkii, I would have him bull rushed through a gate leading to the Spire (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Outlands). There, he loses all godly abilities, and could be killed by either an ubercharger or the power found at the base of the spire, which is said to prevent life itself. If he loses all godly powers when he is close to the spire, he will no longer be invulnerable. Subverting that would cause some entity like the Lady of Pain to come down and simply remove or imprison him.

Alternatively, one could escape Amkii by moving to Sigil, where he is unable to enter. Then just chill there.

Amkii chooses whether or not your gate affects it. You literally bull rush it from one side of a floating circle to the other. Anyway, it ignores any effect that would remove true immortality, or indeed its divine ranks (And even if you did remove its divine ranks, it would still have true immortality). In fact, Amkii is perfectly capable of chilling out in the base of the spire, because it's immune to it removing it immortality even if it did, and also immune to dying because it's immortal.

One could also go to Sigil, sure. But then, Amkii isn't going to be a major plot device if the plot is in Sigil, is it? (Also, this is a case where the DM could just adapt Amkii so as not to be a god, in a similar manner to the original Achaekek who's not a god even though it's called one. Amkii's actual stat block is Not Really The Point.)

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-25, 08:45 AM
Amkii's actual stat block is Not Really The Point.)

That seems to, violently, fly in the face of the title and stated premise of this thread.

Jormengand
2014-07-25, 08:52 AM
That seems to, violently, fly in the face of the title and stated premise of this thread.

Except that no it doesn't. The point of Amkii is that you can take the True Immortality, apply it to anything from a goblin to Boccob himself, and have a creature who:

- Has stats
- Can't be killed.

What those stats are doesn't really matter until Amkii finds itself actually being used in a game. If you want someone who is immortal in Sigil, you make someone who isn't a god, and is immortal, and is in Sigil. If Sigil doesn't exist, then sure you can go ahead and use Amkii as written.

Irk
2014-07-25, 09:37 AM
At this point Amkii is just subverting the very nature of reality (which is, in this case, not something a god ought to really be doing).

You don't really need "True Immortality" to be unkillable, you just have to have a clever entity with contingencies relying on contingencies relying on contingencies (not necessarily the spell). A reasonably intelligent deity can prevent itself from ever being killed by the players, and I noticed you took precautions to make him unbeatable by Pun Pun even, but no one is going to play Pun-Pun. This is just as easy as saying "DM says" and being finished with it. If I truly wanted to prevent my characters from killing an entity, I 'd rather use conventional rules and cunning to defeat them.

However, it is an interesting idea, but it escalates the DM v. PCs arms race to such an extent that will ultimately end in bitterness.

Tanuki Tales
2014-07-25, 04:02 PM
Amkii is immune to bullrushing, by the by.

Omoikane13
2014-07-29, 05:46 AM
"Look at my everything-proof shield! Isn't it a pretty everything-proof shield. What's that? Everything-proof shields are no fun and made of fiat?
...
It's just a thought experiment."

Jormengand
2014-07-29, 07:09 AM
"Look at my everything-proof shield! Isn't it a pretty everything-proof shield. What's that? Everything-proof shields are no fun and made of fiat?
...
It's just a thought experiment."

Your logical fallacy is... (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman)

Omoikane13
2014-07-30, 03:11 PM
How am I misrepresenting Amkii? Honestly, please show me if I'm being short-sighted. I was really just aiming for a humourous summation of a thread.

Tanuki Tales
2014-07-31, 09:55 AM
How am I misrepresenting Amkii? Honestly, please show me if I'm being short-sighted. I was really just aiming for a humourous summation of a thread.

It was kind of mean-spirited though, if you intended to just be making a joke.

Just my two coppers.

...
2014-07-31, 10:47 AM
Throw it in the sun/ocean: "Further, if Amkii is unconscious for over 20 minutes, it immediately wakes up with full hit points. In this case, Amkii is immune to all damage whatsoever for 1 round." and at-will teleportation/plane shifting.


1. Put it in the sun, put the sun in an antimagic field. Done.

2. Create an Aleax of Amkii. Have them fight forever. If Amkii escapes, the Aleax finds him/her/it. Done.

3. Trick Amkii into going into the plane of mirrors. Have the duplicate Amkii and the original one fight forever. If Amkii escapes, the dupe finds him/her/it. Done.

Tanuki Tales
2014-07-31, 10:56 AM
1. Put it in the sun, put the sun in an antimagic field. Done.

This has already been covered. Amkii is explicitly a deity in its rule text (though Divine Rank 0 by itself does not necessarily grant this distinction) and as such is immune to the Antimagic Field spell. You would need Epic level magic specifically to pull this off, which we also covered and agreed would effectively deal with Amkii for a few thousand years if it couldn't pull off teleportation magic of some kind.


2. Create an Aleax of Amkii. Have them fight forever. If Amkii escapes, the Aleax finds him/her/it. Done.

Are there even rules for making an Aleax? Getting even a Divine Rank 1 deity to intercede on your behalf for something more mundane than that is already circumspect.


3. Trick Amkii into going into the plane of mirrors. Have the duplicate Amkii and the original one fight forever. If Amkii escapes, the dupe finds him/her/it. Done.

I've honestly never heard of the Plane of Mirrors, so can't really comment.

Jorm has already agreed that Amkii would work better as an immortal, unassailable force that is otherwise impotent in affecting the Great Wheel directly. Thus, it would simply create avatars to interact with the Great Wheel which are simply tough to beat, but can be created ad naseum. So it'd be like fighting the biggest, baddest Inevitable ever.

Jormengand
2014-07-31, 10:59 AM
1. Put it in the sun, put the sun in an antimagic field. Done.

2. Create an Aleax of Amkii. Have them fight forever. If Amkii escapes, the Aleax finds him/her/it. Done.

3. Trick Amkii into going into the plane of mirrors. Have the duplicate Amkii and the original one fight forever. If Amkii escapes, the dupe finds him/her/it. Done.

1 fails because Amkii's a god and also how are you getting a personal spell in the sun, 2 and 3 fails and in the former case you get hit with imprisonment because that's how TI works.

...
2014-07-31, 06:41 PM
-snip-
If an effect would cause another creature to gain True Immortality


If a Amkii goes into the plane of mirrors, its dupe has True Immortality from the start, so it never "gains" it. Also, we have to define the definition of "creature." Is an outsider a creature? I assume it is, but it's up to discussion. You will probably say that getting TI from the start still means gaining it, but this is the second, most relevant definition, if we are using dictionary.com.

to acquire as an increase or addition

Here's the definition of acquire:

to come into possession or ownership of; get as one's own

If you come into possession of something, you don't already have it. For example, a person cannot acquire life, they had it for their whole lives. Same goes for the TI. The mirror opposite wouldn't acquire it, it had it from its creation.

Also, as many people have pointed out, I can't find a way to use Amkii other than as a railroad plot device.

EDIT: Okay, so if you use him to send out minions to fight you, and isn't able to influence the planes directly, how does he function differently than a deity? At least they can change divinely morphic planes, the only thing Amkii can do is tell things to do other things, also known as the clericial system.

druid91
2014-07-31, 07:40 PM
Beseech Lord Ao.

Lord Ao kills him.

...
2014-07-31, 07:45 PM
Beseech Lord Ao.

Lord Ao kills him.

Lord Ao can kill anything he wants. After all, he made all of it.

druid91
2014-07-31, 07:53 PM
Lord Ao can kill anything he wants. After all, he made all of it.

Exactly. Lord Ao has the following ability.

I win (Ex)
Anything attempted by Lord Ao automatically succeeds.

...
2014-07-31, 07:59 PM
Exactly. Lord Ao has the following ability.

I win (Ex)
Anything attempted by Lord Ao automatically succeeds.

Better wording:

I win (Ex)

Anything Lord Ao wants to happen happens automatically as a free action. No exceptions.

EDIT: This includes existing in your campaign setting.

Network
2014-07-31, 10:13 PM
Lord Ao can kill anything he wants. After all, he made all of it.
The Lady of Pain can block Ao from entering Sigil. Further Ao is not known to be omnipotent : he's immune to damage, can win against a concerted attack of all the gods in the Forgotten Realms simultaneously, and can create divine avatars of the same power level as the god they originate from and capable of surviving that god's death, but he has his own superior, an unnamed greater power (I don't make any of this up). Even better : according to Elder Evils, the gods (and presumably Ao, or even Ao's creator) are the creations of Atropus.

Talking about which, Atropus could almost certainly be convinced to eat Amkii to absorb his raw positive energy. There are more than enough reasons to justify why Atropus can kill Amkii permanently, and it (or him, if you prefer) has been known to travel from world to world, so he could exist in Golarion.

Jormengand
2014-08-01, 05:11 AM
If a Amkii goes into the plane of mirrors, its dupe has True Immortality from the start, so it never "gains" it.

Before it was created, it didn't have it. Now it does. It's gained it. I could go back and make that even more obvious, but apparently I'm not allowed to edit the stat block because that would be cheating.

All of everyone's other suggestions are kinda funny, because everyone's been accusing me of DM fiat. Ao can't kill Amkii, Atropus can't kill Amkii, because in reality they do not actually have the ability to do so.

But feel free to DM fiat it. But then, only dirty cheating rudisplorkers could possibly use DM fiat.

Tanuki Tales
2014-08-01, 08:41 AM
The Plane of Mirrors never specifies that it works on Gods; the entire entry for it in the Manual of the Planes reads like it is assuming that mortal adventurers are being dealt with.

Jormengand
2014-08-01, 08:50 AM
The Plane of Mirrors never specifies that it works on Gods; the entire entry for it in the Manual of the Planes reads like it is assuming that mortal adventurers are being dealt with.

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure I want to think about something that can duplicate deities.

Though, the idea of a few thousand copies of Amkii running around is hilarious.

"So, about your proposed 'solution' to the Amkii problem..."

...
2014-08-01, 08:53 AM
Before it was created, it didn't have it. Now it does. It's gained it. I could go back and make that even more obvious, but apparently I'm not allowed to edit the stat block because that would be cheating.

All of everyone's other suggestions are kinda funny, because everyone's been accusing me of DM fiat. Ao can't kill Amkii, Atropus can't kill Amkii, because in reality they do not actually have the ability to do so.

But feel free to DM fiat it. But then, only dirty cheating rudisplorkers could possibly use DM fiat.

Wait a second... If Amkii was "created" and has TI, then Amkii 1) shouldn't have TI and 2) Should be Imprisoned. Those are the rules of TI, are they not? If you say Amkii always existed, then that raises a whole bunch of other questions.

Jormengand
2014-08-01, 09:57 AM
Wait a second... If Amkii was "created" and has TI, then Amkii 1) shouldn't have TI and 2) Should be Imprisoned. Those are the rules of TI, are they not? If you say Amkii always existed, then that raises a whole bunch of other questions.

"If an effect would cause another creature..."

Amkii is not another creature. Amkii is Amkii.

Network
2014-08-01, 12:00 PM
Ao can't kill Amkii, Atropus can't kill Amkii, because in reality they do not actually have the ability to do so.
Not so fast! Atropus can deal 66 vile damage per day to all deities on the same plane as it simultaneously. Vile damage cannot be healed. Of course you can always say "Amkii dies, but then returns", which by RAW it can still do... unless you awaken Leviathan, the only Elder Evil from the book to have True Death, which would kill Amkii's soul along with his body. Since Elder Evils are meant to kill gods, TD>TI.

Of course, as you have noticed, most of my tricks rely on getting more powerful entities to do the job for the players. Getting Leviathan to help you can be troublesome, though, since you have to have it sufficiently awakened so his malefic properties activate, but not enough as to destroy you (and it doesn't understand what you tell it... unless you're a monk). A better idea would be to make Atropus gain TD, or to create an human-crafted Elder Evil with TD to ally with it.

lunasmeow
2015-07-25, 04:53 AM
Really? Nobody chose the obvious answer? Okay, I'm going to repeat two or three things that were already stated, then add in the one key thing that kills Amkii.

The sun will kill Amkii infinitely due to gravity stopping his movement, so no flying out.

Even if the DM allows Amkii to move, (which would be blatantly against RAW since it has rules for double gravity, and the sun has MUCH more than that, so the DM would be blatantly "cheating" to allow Amkii to move while in the sun) keeping him gone for over 1000 years, the sun will do the job and you just keep sending him there.

The DM has accepted that the sun will "kill" Amkii, but continues to decide that Amkii can move while there, despite Gravity having rules. Fine. The big problem was, how to get Amkii to the sun.

People kept saying teleport, but unfortunately, while Amkii is not immune to teleportation (or else his own EX Teleport wouldn't work) he still chooses whether your teleport works on him or not.

Wait... Amkii chooses?

Well! Knock Amkii out with the golems! He is unconscious for 20 minutes. Once he is unconscious, he can't choose anything, because he's unconscious and so your teleport spell works! Simple. Done.

Use this "impossible" victory over Amkii to gain enough Glory to become a God, choose "Sun" as one of your profiles, a double at that, (allowing you to travel to and from the sun at will as well as know everything about the Sun and all things on it if the DM is logical at all...) and re-teleport him every few years, during a time when he is unconscious because of sun damage. Amkii never leaves the sun. He never even gets close. No more Amkii.


Not to mention the failure to call this DM on definition shenanigans. Amkii did not "gain" True Immortality. It always had it. A trait that a creature/being/whatever has from the moment it is created is not "gained". It is a part of the base creature. Saying that it didn't have the trait before it was created does not change this. No creature/being/whatever has a trait before it exists. And yet mirror copies, clones, etc have the traits these creatures have. Also, sayying that Amkii is not a creature, Amkii is Amkii, is just ridiculous. Childish even in it's logic. He is quite obviously using rules when he wants to, and interpreting things *how* he wants to. In this he's like a cultist with a holy scripture!

If he wants to now say Amkii was created without True Immortality, and somehow gained it after his creation, simply travel through time and kill him after creation but before he gains it, by using Greater Celerity to interrupt whatever action caused him to gain this ability. Done again.

Network
2015-07-25, 09:26 AM
Hi Lunasmeow. I'll try to answer your concerns to the best of my abilities.

Really? Nobody chose the obvious answer? Okay, I'm going to repeat two or three things that were already stated, then add in the one key thing that kills Amkii.

The sun will kill Amkii infinitely due to gravity stopping his movement, so no flying out.

Even if the DM allows Amkii to move, (which would be blatantly against RAW since it has rules for double gravity, and the sun has MUCH more than that, so the DM would be blatantly "cheating" to allow Amkii to move while in the sun) keeping him gone for over 1000 years, the sun will do the job and you just keep sending him there.
Not so fast! This was discussed at length before and Jormengand settled the issue by giving Amkii the ability to teleport by concentrating for 1 minute. Amkii will still be unconscious in the sun, but there's nothing RAW saying you can't take purely mental actions when helpless, which is what unconsciousness entails. Doing it twice in the same day could still slow Amkii down for a single day.

If one could kill Amkii, doing so would still be completely pointless as it would be resurrected again immediately and at full capacity, even if it it had been completely erased from time, space and existence itself, such as through an Unname spell. In any case, Amkii can, once per day and by concentrating for 1 minute, reform itself, undamaged, anywhere on any plane.


The DM has accepted that the sun will "kill" Amkii, but continues to decide that Amkii can move while there, despite Gravity having rules. Fine. The big problem was, how to get Amkii to the sun.
So you'd... kill Amkii with radiation sickness? Non-lethal damage certainly won't be enough, and suffocation is a mere hindrance, so you got to be talking about radiation poisoning. Amkii will get out of the sun soon enough to avoid dying from radiation.Even if he did, he could just teleport out. He explicitely can concentrate on teleporting even when dead.

People kept saying teleport, but unfortunately, while Amkii is not immune to teleportation (or else his own EX Teleport wouldn't work) he still chooses whether your teleport works on him or not.

Wait... Amkii chooses?

Well! Knock Amkii out with the golems! He is unconscious for 20 minutes. Once he is unconscious, he can't choose anything, because he's unconscious and so your teleport spell works! Simple. Done.
No, unconsciousness doesn't equal inability to choose. I'm quite sure that the part about unconscious people always being consensual is an effect-specific clause, so if an effect doesn't say it treats unconscious people as consensual, it treats them as whatever the player wants the PC to be (or whatever the GM wants the NPC to be). Unconscious people can still make Fortitude or Will saves, and they can still choose to fail them. So even if unconscious, Amkii could just decide "Hell no" and not teleport.

So far the best way I've seen in this thread to reasonably put Amkii in the sun is to convince him to go there himself (ok, nobody suggested it until now, but it'd be frickin' awesome!) or demi-plane closing abuse (you still need to get Amkii in the demi-plane to begin with to pull this one off).

Use this "impossible" victory over Amkii to gain enough Glory to become a God, choose "Sun" as one of your profiles, a double at that, (allowing you to travel to and from the sun at will as well as know everything about the Sun and all things on it if the DM is logical at all...) and re-teleport him every few years, during a time when he is unconscious because of sun damage. Amkii never leaves the sun. He never even gets close. No more Amkii.
Divine abilities... don't work that way. Nor does apotheosis for that matter. If you are following Deities & Demigods rules, then a sun god can do nothing sun-related beyond domain abilities, sun precognition, sun postcognition and a bunch of salient divine abilities he chooses to be sun-related (or not). None of these things give teleportation at will to a sun god or resistance to untyped damage from the sun's rays (most light spells don't deal fire damage, so why should the sun?). Also, Amkii never gets unconscious for more than 20 minutes at a time.

If you are using the Immortal Handbook rules, then you still don't get the ability to teleport to the sun last time I checked, and Divine Recall was one of the few salient divine abilities to not have been transfered to the Immortal Handbook.

Not to mention the failure to call this DM on definition shenanigans. Amkii did not "gain" True Immortality. It always had it. A trait that a creature/being/whatever has from the moment it is created is not "gained". It is a part of the base creature. Saying that it didn't have the trait before it was created does not change this. No creature/being/whatever has a trait before it exists. And yet mirror copies, clones, etc have the traits these creatures have. Also, sayying that Amkii is not a creature, Amkii is Amkii, is just ridiculous. Childish even in it's logic. He is quite obviously using rules when he wants to, and interpreting things *how* he wants to. In this he's like a cultist with a holy scripture!
Whatever. Just hand-wave Amkii as having the Archetypal Shape ability of a sharn and be done with it. I'm pretty sure there are some clauses in the core rules stating you can't shapeshift into a god anyway. I remember Pun-Pun used god simulacrums to get divine ranks, but simulacrums have the abilities of a normal creature of their HD right? I mean, if I made a simulacrum of a 20th-level barbarian, it would be a 10th-level barbarian, not a 20th-level barbarian with 10 HD? If that's how the GM handles it there's no chance an Amkii simulacrum will have true immortality, since it pushes its ECL so much an Amkii monster class couldn't reasonably have acquired true immortality at 1st level (this applies to a solar's wish as well for that matter). Now if your game master has some other ruling the issue is with the ruling, not Amkii.

Simulacrums are so 13th level anyway. Ice assassin is strictly better, wasn't it for the fact that you can't let one go past a mile of you without it trying to kill you (it's original is its nemesis after all, but chances are if you want to dispose of the original in the first place you're close second in the ice assassin's eyes). And even if you use it, true immortality won't save your pitiful attempt to kill Amkii since 1. The ice assassin does not technically dies when it melts away/explodes 2. Amkii is good at staying alive but doesn't have much in the way of offensive abilities (CL 20 cleric spellcasting on a CR 35 creaeture? Irrelevant).

If you mean an opposite alignment clone from a mirror-based effect (the magic item or the Plane of Mirror), you'll at best get little result anyway (you have no control over Chaotic Neutral Amkii clone) and at worst double the number of unkillable enemies. You could probably shred the part of Atropus's being that is the negative energy opposite of Amkii, but all you'll get is a Lawful Evil undead monstruosity that doesn't even have regeneration since it is reserved to creatures with a Constitution score. You could find another type of god-clone if your GM uses the 2nd edition plot twists and hidden secrets, but knowing about it is the refuge in audacity of metagaming. It's almost be on par with knowing the Dark Powers' true nature or Asmodeus's (hidden) hidden hidden agenda, for instance.

If he wants to now say Amkii was created without True Immortality, and somehow gained it after his creation, simply travel through time and kill him after creation but before he gains it, by using Greater Celerity to interrupt whatever action caused him to gain this ability. Done again.
No, Amkii can explicitely resurrect if erased from the timeline. Amkii's immortality is ripple-proof.

lunasmeow
2015-07-25, 09:45 AM
Hi Lunasmeow. I'll try to answer your concerns to the best of my abilities.

Not so fast! This was discussed at length before and Jormengand settled the issue by giving Amkii the ability to teleport by concentrating for 1 minute. Amkii will still be unconscious in the sun, but there's nothing RAW saying you can't take purely mental actions when helpless, which is what unconsciousness entails. Doing it twice in the same day could still slow Amkii down for a single day.



He's not helpless though... Not just physically anyway as if he had lost his dex or something. He literally is unconscious. As in not conscious, as in he can't think because that requires consciousness. The DMG doesn't have to explain a definition... right? Because that's horrible if he tried that.



So you'd... kill Amkii with radiation sickness? Non-lethal damage certainly won't be enough, and suffocation is a mere hindrance, so you got to be talking about radiation poisoning. Amkii will get out of the sun soon enough to avoid dying from radiation.Even if he did, he could just teleport out. He explicitely can concentrate on teleporting even when dead.

No, just the damage that the sun would give from the crazy heat/force/etc that was already explained in the first couple posts saying to put him there.



No, unconsciousness doesn't equal inability to choose. I'm quite sure that the part about unconscious people always being consensual is an effect-specific clause, so if an effect doesn't say it treats unconscious people as consensual, it treats them as whatever the player wants the PC to be (or whatever the GM wants the NPC to be). Unconscious people can still make Fortitude or Will saves, and they can still choose to fail them. So even if unconscious, Amkii could just decide "Hell no" and not teleport.


How can you choose when unconscious? I'd love to hear an explanation for that, that could fly past an unbiased DM. Fort and Will saves can be decided as reflexes, that the body still has. No as conscious decisions which are a different thing. In this instance, it'd be like: A slow easily dodged punch is coming. It can't pass your DR. Do you dodge, or take it? Conscious you could choose to either dodge or take it, unconscious your DR would have to suffice. As such, he'd get the automatic chance to save VS teleportation, but not the conscious choice to negate it.



So far the best way I've seen in this thread to reasonably put Amkii in the sun is to convince him to go there himself (ok, nobody suggested it until now, but it'd be frickin' awesome!) or demi-plane closing abuse (you still need to get Amkii in the demi-plane to begin with to pull this one off).

Divine abilities... don't work that way. Nor does apotheosis for that matter. If you are following Deities & Demigods rules, then a sun god can do nothing sun-related beyond domain abilities, sun precognition, sun postcognition and a bunch of salient divine abilities he chooses to be sun-related (or not). None of these things give teleportation at will to a sun god or resistance to untyped damage from the sun's rays (most light spells don't deal fire damage, so why should the sun?). Also, Amkii never gets unconscious for more than 20 minutes at a time.

If you are using the Immortal Handbook rules, then you still don't get the ability to teleport to the sun last time I checked, and Divine Recall was one of the few salient divine abilities to not have been transfered to the Immortal Handbook.


When I said "teleport to the Sun" in that instance, I meant that being a Sun Deity would render you impervious to Sun based damages and such. Allowing you to teleport there, via the spell or other ability, at will without worrying about dying. What kind of Sun god can't freely move on the sun? Or not take damage from it? Could have been more clear I guess.



Whatever. Just hand-wave Amkii as having the Archetypal Shape ability of a sharn and be done with it. I'm pretty sure there are some clauses in the core rules stating you can't shapeshift into a god anyway. I remember Pun-Pun used god simulacrums to get divine ranks, but simulacrums have the abilities of a normal creature of their HD right? I mean, if I made a simulacrum of a 20th-level barbarian, it would be a 10th-level barbarian, not a 20th-level barbarian with 10 HD? If that's how the GM handles it there's no chance an Amkii simulacrum will have true immortality, since it pushes its ECL so much an Amkii monster class couldn't reasonably have acquired true immortality at 1st level (this applies to a solar's wish as well for that matter). Now if your game master has some other ruling the issue is with the ruling, not Amkii.


But he doesn't have it. Key point there.



Simulacrums are so 13th level anyway. Ice assassin is strictly better, wasn't it for the fact that you can't let one go past a mile of you without it trying to kill you (it's original is its nemesis after all, but chances are if you want to dispose of the original in the first place you're close second in the ice assassin's eyes). And even if you use it, true immortality won't save your pitiful attempt to kill Amkii since 1. The ice assassin does not technically dies when it melts away/explodes 2. Amkii is good at staying alive but doesn't have much in the way of offensive abilities (CL 20 cleric spellcasting on a CR 35 creaeture? Irrelevant).

If you mean an opposite alignment clone from a mirror-based effect (the magic item or the Plane of Mirror), you'll at best get little result anyway (you have no control over Chaotic Neutral Amkii clone) and at worst double the number of unkillable enemies. You could probably shred the part of Atropus's being that is the negative energy opposite of Amkii, but all you'll get is a Lawful Evil undead monstruosity that doesn't even have regeneration since it is reserved to creatures with a Constitution score. You could find another type of god-clone if your GM uses the 2nd edition plot twists and hidden secrets, but knowing about it is the refuge in audacity of metagaming. It's almost be on par with knowing the Dark Powers' true nature or Asmodeus's (hidden) hidden hidden agenda, for instance.

No, Amkii can explicitely resurrect if erased from the timeline. Amkii's immortality is ripple-proof.

Only because he was previously stated to have True Immortality shenanigans immediately upon creation. In which case his Ice Assassin (included in the "etc" grouping I made of mirror creatures and clones) would have his same shenanigans, and thus the earlier method to kill him should work that the OP denied by claiming that Amkii gained these traits with false definitions.

Carl
2015-07-25, 09:49 AM
You two do know this thread is ten months old...

Jormengand
2015-07-25, 11:36 AM
Screw it, I'm the author of this homebrew thread: COMMAND UNTHREAD!

What I want to know is how you think you're getting Amkii to the sun, or actually knocking it out long enough to stick it there, but there we go.

Network
2015-07-25, 06:54 PM
He's not helpless though... Not just physically anyway as if he had lost his dex or something. He literally is unconscious. As in not conscious, as in he can't think because that requires consciousness. The DMG doesn't have to explain a definition... right? Because that's horrible if he tried that.
The rules say an unconscious person is helpless. There technically are penalties to skill checks as well, but there's nothing stating you can't take actions when unconscious. It's not RAW.

No, just the damage that the sun would give from the crazy heat/force/etc that was already explained in the first couple posts saying to put him there.
Non-lethal damage cannot kill. Constitution damage (from radiation sickness) could kill, but non-lethal damage definitely cannot, and all damage is converted to non-lethal through regeneration.

How can you choose when unconscious? I'd love to hear an explanation for that, that could fly past an unbiased DM. Fort and Will saves can be decided as reflexes, that the body still has. No as conscious decisions which are a different thing. In this instance, it'd be like: A slow easily dodged punch is coming. It can't pass your DR. Do you dodge, or take it? Conscious you could choose to either dodge or take it, unconscious your DR would have to suffice. As such, he'd get the automatic chance to save VS teleportation, but not the conscious choice to negate it.
See 1. Because unconscious causes you to be helpless you have a Dexterity of 0, so you cannot move. But there's nothing saying you cannot choose.

When I said "teleport to the Sun" in that instance, I meant that being a Sun Deity would render you impervious to Sun based damages and such. Allowing you to teleport there, via the spell or other ability, at will without worrying about dying. What kind of Sun god can't freely move on the sun? Or not take damage from it? Could have been more clear I guess.
It's not an innate ability of deities. A god is immune to ability damage or drain (and thus radiation poisoning), has fire resistance 5 + divine rank, and that's about it. If he selects the Extra Energy immunity divine ability, he is immune to fire damage. But the sun could as well cause searing fire damage, in which case immunity to fire only reduces the damage by half. The sun could also deal pressure damage (from Stormwrack) and untyped damage (like a Sunburst spell or similar), which the god doesn't get resistance against.

The answer, then, is all sun gods. Being a sun god gives you no special resistance to the damage from the sun. You'd have to be immune to fire, immune to light, immune to pressure, possibly immune to force as well, and immune to Constitution damage. Gods only get two out of five.

But he doesn't have it. Key point there.
I'm not even sure you can shapeshift into an unique creature (let alone a deity) in the first place anyway. If you can, then you could take one who actually has useful special abilities and a divine rank. If it's really an issue, I think Jormengand could add the ability anyway.

Only because he was previously stated to have True Immortality shenanigans immediately upon creation. In which case his Ice Assassin (included in the "etc" grouping I made of mirror creatures and clones) would have his same shenanigans, and thus the earlier method to kill him should work that the OP denied by claiming that Amkii gained these traits with false definitions.
True immortality says nothing about what happens if Amkii is turned into a puddle of water, and ice assassin says nothing about the ice assassin dying in the process. And if it did return, the ice assassin would just want to kill you anyway as long as it is at least 1 mile away from you. Having access to 20th-level cleric casting, I'm sure it could find a way out.

Jormengand
2015-07-25, 06:59 PM
Okay, let me break this down:

When an action is performed such that something has a quality it did not have before, it is said to have "Gained" this quality
Before AMKIII is created, it doesn't have a quality.
After AMKIII is created, it has a quality.
Therefore an action has been performed such that AMKIII has a quality that it did not have before.
Therefore AMKIII has gained a quality.

That, good sir, is not circular logic.

This bears repeating.

necroon
2015-07-25, 08:26 PM
Really? Nobody chose the obvious answer? Okay, I'm going to repeat two or three things that were already stated, then add in the one key thing that kills Amkii.

The sun will kill Amkii infinitely due to gravity stopping his movement, so no flying out.

Even if the DM allows Amkii to move, (which would be blatantly against RAW since it has rules for double gravity, and the sun has MUCH more than that, so the DM would be blatantly "cheating" to allow Amkii to move while in the sun) keeping him gone for over 1000 years, the sun will do the job and you just keep sending him there.

The DM has accepted that the sun will "kill" Amkii, but continues to decide that Amkii can move while there, despite Gravity having rules. Fine. The big problem was, how to get Amkii to the sun.


I am still trying to find what 3.5 Sourcebook defines the conditions of "The Sun" as it is on any / all given Plane. Since we are, of course, discussing RAW.

lunasmeow
2015-07-26, 12:38 AM
You two do know this thread is ten months old...

It was quoted in another thread, which I followed the link here, and posted before I realized how old it actually was. *Shrugs*

lunasmeow
2015-07-26, 12:52 AM
The rules say an unconscious person is helpless. There technically are penalties to skill checks as well, but there's nothing stating you can't take actions when unconscious. It's not RAW.

Non-lethal damage cannot kill. Constitution damage (from radiation sickness) could kill, but non-lethal damage definitely cannot, and all damage is converted to non-lethal through regeneration.


Except that the creator already said that the Sun WOULD do this to Amkii, so...yeah.



See 1. Because unconscious causes you to be helpless you have a Dexterity of 0, so you cannot move. But there's nothing saying you cannot choose.


And I quote:



Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.


That line right there states that unconsciousness and helplessness are different things. When you cannot think, you are unconscious. You are helpless as a result of being unconscious. They are two different conditions.

If Amkii is unconscious, he cannot think, and therefore cannot choose. He is not just physically helpless. Thank RAW for the creators having some actual sense. Also, considering that the creature is homebrew of the worst kind, the minimal homebrew you tried to claim I was making up with unconsciousness should have literally been handwaived, even if you had been correct.

Basically, you can be helpless and conscious, still capable of thought, but NOT the other way around.



It's not an innate ability of deities. A god is immune to ability damage or drain (and thus radiation poisoning), has fire resistance 5 + divine rank, and that's about it. If he selects the Extra Energy immunity divine ability, he is immune to fire damage. But the sun could as well cause searing fire damage, in which case immunity to fire only reduces the damage by half. The sun could also deal pressure damage (from Stormwrack) and untyped damage (like a Sunburst spell or similar), which the god doesn't get resistance against.

The answer, then, is all sun gods. Being a sun god gives you no special resistance to the damage from the sun. You'd have to be immune to fire, immune to light, immune to pressure, possibly immune to force as well, and immune to Constitution damage. Gods only get two out of five.


You can become immune to fire damage with an enchanted item, absorbing fire damage instead of being immune. Also, Gods with the fire portfolio, eventually absorb that damage. You just need to rank up a bit. Gods get more than two divine abilities, by either ranking up, or stealing the abilities of other gods. Which is possible. Or stealing their portfolios. Also possible. If said character is a force dragon, they are immune to force. You now just need immunity to light and pressure, which you can get as a god. The con damage thing can be gotten rid of by stealing a profile that gives that benefit automatically.

Even without all that, if he can homebrew TI into this, a Sun-god can inherently not take damage from the very thing that symbolizes their power. That's like a god of fire taking fire damage, or an ice god taking cold damage. It's ridiculous. A divine ability is worth 6 feats, meaning that they are 6x more powerful. Therefore if there is a feat for fire does what piercing cold does for cold damage, it loses to divine fire immunity. Piercing cold might work on a normal creature immune to cold, or on a God using a Cold spell on another God, but not anything else using cold on an ice god. Divine abilities always trump feats.

Lastly, you don't really need to go to the Sun. You can do the gate thing once Amkii is unconscious due to the above.

If *any* homebrew is being used (which also is what allows the Tremach that was argued earlier) this makes more sense than the previous, which is why I previously stated that an unbiased DM would be required. With a biased DM, you simply get the same "DM-fiat" that was argued from the beginning. If you are going to allow homebrew, then it's allowed. If it's not allowed, then the monster would need to go by RAW as well.



I'm not even sure you can shapeshift into an unique creature (let alone a deity) in the first place anyway. If you can, then you could take one who actually has useful special abilities and a divine rank. If it's really an issue, I think Jormengand could add the ability anyway.

True immortality says nothing about what happens if Amkii is turned into a puddle of water, and ice assassin says nothing about the ice assassin dying in the process. And if it did return, the ice assassin would just want to kill you anyway as long as it is at least 1 mile away from you. Having access to 20th-level cleric casting, I'm sure it could find a way out.

Sure, but that mirror creature part earlier would be perfectly valid. Which is what I should have referenced earlier, but I was half asleep and said Ice Assassin from reading your post. My bad.

Network
2015-07-26, 12:59 AM
I am still trying to find what 3.5 Sourcebook defines the conditions of "The Sun" as it is on any / all given Plane. Since we are, of course, discussing RAW.
The only official rule on the matter (that I know of) is D20 Future's amount of radiation according to a star's classification. There are no actual rules for adventuring on the star or into it, AFAIK.

The book also has rules about going in a vacuum. It's like normal suffocation, except you take 1 point of Constitution damage for every round you hold your breath. In case the sun doesn't have an atmosphere.

Except that the creator already said that the Sun WOULD do this to Amkii, so...yeah.
I didn't say the sun couldn't kill Amkii, I said it could only kill him through radiation sickness as opposed to hit points damage. Even if Amkii did die from Constitution damage, it could just reform itself.

That line right there states that unconsciousness and helplessness are different things. When you cannot think, you are unconscious. You are helpless as a result of being unconscious. They are two different conditions.

If Amkii is unconscious, he cannot think, and therefore cannot choose. He is not just physically helpless. Thank RAW for the creators having some actual sense. Also, considering that the creature is homebrew of the worst kind, the minimal homebrew you tried to claim I was making up with unconsciousness should have literally been handwaived, even if you had been correct.
It's very childish to blame me on something and then do it yourself.

I was not mistaken, there is still no rule stating you cannot think when unconscious. Unconsciousness causes you to be helpless, but you can be helpless without being unconscious, AND being unconscious has NO other effect than also being helpless. It's the RAW straight from the SRD. Had you read even one line further, you could have seen having an Intelligence score of 0 is only one way of being unconscious, and unconsciousness doesn't cause you to lose Intelligence. You could also become unconscious (and thus, helpless) with a Charisma of 0, in which case there is nothing RAW saying you cannot think.

You can become immune to fire damage with an enchanted item, absorbing fire damage instead of being immune. Also, Gods with the fire portfolio, eventually absorb that damage. You just need to rank up a bit. Gods get more than two divine abilities, by either ranking up, or stealing the abilities of other gods. Which is possible. Or stealing their portfolios. Also possible. If said character is a force dragon, they are immune to force. You now just need immunity to light and pressure, which you can get as a god. The con damage thing can be gotten rid of by stealing a profile that gives that benefit automatically.
The rules for gods from the Immortal Handbook (which you are familiar with) are not the same as the rules for gods from the SRD (which apparently you are not). But neither give sun gods any resistance to the sun by virtue of being sun gods. They are forced to get them from other sources. Even a non-IH god could be an half-golem (of IKEA Tarrasque fame), for example. But so could a moon, or an ocean god (there is actually a water-based domain that makes you immune to pressure damage in Stormwrack). Being a sun god gives none of these things, and all of these things can be gained by being a mortal, so why are you denying what I say?

Even without all that, if he can homebrew TI into this, a Sun-god can inherently not take damage from the very thing that symbolizes their power. That's like a god of fire taking fire damage, or an ice god taking cold damage. It's ridiculous. A divine ability is worth 6 feats, meaning that they are 6x more powerful. Therefore if there is a feat for fire does what piercing cold does for cold damage, it loses to divine fire immunity. Piercing cold might work on a normal creature immune to cold, or on a God using a Cold spell on another God, but not anything else using cold on an ice god. Divine abilities always trump feats.
Ridiculous hun? Well you are using the same arguments a Craig Cochrane. In case you didn't know, he also thought it was ridiculous for a fire elemental to not take fire damage from the sun. Or for a creature immune to fire to swim in magma without taking damage. Go figure.

Lastly, you don't really need to go to the Sun. You can do the gate thing once Amkii is unconscious due to the above.
Or you could trap him in a closing demiplane. These are ways to get him in the sun, not to dispose of him permanently (come to think of it, trapping him in a plane where 1 round = 1 million years may be a better idea. He'll stay there for 0.1 billion years at least).

If *any* homebrew is being used (which also is what allows the Tremach that was argued earlier) this makes more sense than the previous, which is why I previously stated that an unbiased DM would be required. With a biased DM, you simply get the same "DM-fiat" that was argued from the beginning. If you are going to allow homebrew, then it's allowed. If it's not allowed, then the monster would need to go by RAW as well.
The Game Master is free to accept some homebrews and ban others. It's an implicit rule on all game tables, except those of the "anything goes" variety, of course. Jormengand explicitely said he would not allow homebrews with a perma-kill ability at his gaming table.

Sure, but that mirror creature part earlier would be perfectly valid. Which is what I should have referenced earlier, but I was half asleep and said Ice Assassin from reading your post. My bad.
No. The double created by a mirror of opposition disappears (does not die, disappears) when the original is slain. So Amkii dies, but it just returns at full health, and his double is not going to come back unless you create another. The double only slows Amkii down, and you cannot actually control it.

The double from the Plane of Mirror, on the other hand, is a different creature that happens to have reverse chirality and alignment. Even if that double does exist (and I think I read somewhere earlier in this thread that Amkii doesn't have a mirror double), it's just a 2nd Amkii, not something the players can control (any more than they control Amkii, anyway).

lunasmeow
2015-07-26, 05:45 AM
The only official rule on the matter (that I know of) is D20 Future's amount of radiation according to a star's classification. There are no actual rules for adventuring on the star or into it, AFAIK.

The book also has rules about going in a vacuum. It's like normal suffocation, except you take 1 point of Constitution damage for every round you hold your breath. In case the sun doesn't have an atmosphere.

I didn't say the sun couldn't kill Amkii, I said it could only kill him through radiation sickness as opposed to hit points damage. Even if Amkii did die from Constitution damage, it could just reform itself.


Okay, you're completely misunderstanding almost everything I have written. Again, the Future book doesn't matter here, nor does any other rules about the sun since the creator of the being said that the sun would kill the being. That's pretty much end of that, since he defines the creature being it's creator. It doesn't matter whether it's radiation damage or not. Creator says creature meets sun, creature dies. It just comes back from TI. That ends that, whether you choose to accept it or not.



It's very childish to blame me on something and then do it yourself.


What are you even talking about? You throw an accusation without stating what the accusation is? Wow. Starting to think your just a Troll.



I was not mistaken, there is still no rule stating you cannot think when unconscious. Unconsciousness causes you to be helpless, but you can be helpless without being unconscious, AND being unconscious has NO other effect than also being helpless. It's the RAW straight from the SRD. Had you read even one line further, you could have seen having an Intelligence score of 0 is only one way of being unconscious, and unconsciousness doesn't cause you to lose Intelligence. You could also become unconscious (and thus, helpless) with a Charisma of 0, in which case there is nothing RAW saying you cannot think.


Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.

Uh, actually, it basically says that 0 Int - means you cannot think, because you cannot think, you are unconscious, because you are unconscious, you are helpless. It just does so in less words. It's plain English...

example:
This is the internet, which means that English may not be your primary language, and "Network" may not realize the implicit understanding of the given reading.
Which says, in less words:
Although, to be fair, this is the internet. Because this is the internet, English may or may not be your first language. Because English may not be your first language the implied order of things may or may not be readily apparent. This could cause you to misunderstand.

I never stated that you lose Int points from unconsciousness, that would be retarded. I was saying that he couldn't think because he was unconscious, a thing that the writers of RAW understood was simple English, because conscious thoughts requires consciousness. Which is why they worded the Int rule as they did. That's plain SRD. This would be a case of a player attempting to twist RAI by saying, it doesn't say that explicitly so it can't possibly mean that. Good thing this isn't a court of law, or it might actually fly. This is why you need DM's. To knock nonsense right out the window. Which is what thinking while unconscious is. At least about anything real and not something that your subconscious is dreaming while you're out.

A better example is to say, well it says to roll the die and lose on a 1, but because the SRD doesn't define what a 1 is, you can't say I failed!



The rules for gods from the Immortal Handbook (which you are familiar with) are not the same as the rules for gods from the SRD (which apparently you are not). But neither give sun gods any resistance to the sun by virtue of being sun gods. They are forced to get them from other sources. Even a non-IH god could be an half-golem (of IKEA Tarrasque fame), for example. But so could a moon, or an ocean god (there is actually a water-based domain that makes you immune to pressure damage in Stormwrack). Being a sun god gives none of these things, and all of these things can be gained by being a mortal, so why are you denying what I say?


I am actually familiar with both, but was choosing to use IH rules simply I am more familiar with that one, and can recall things off-hand without looking in the book for reference. I plainly stated that the Sun-god being immune to sun damage was homebrew, so I don't see where you're even going with this, as that would be homebrew no matter which rule-set I used. You're talking in circles and ignoring parts of what I said.



Ridiculous hun? Well you are using the same arguments a Craig Cochrane. In case you didn't know, he also thought it was ridiculous for a fire elemental to not take fire damage from the sun. Or for a creature immune to fire to swim in magma without taking damage. Go figure.


Yes, ridiculous. Because unlike with Craig Cochrane, the example isn't fire damage or a fire elemental. It was a sun god. I didn't in any way compare fire to magma, except to make the sun god immune to the fire damage the YOU claimed they would take from the sun. Or did you forget that you said that with all this obvious hostility in your writing? Even though the original posters of the sun idea already clearly mentioned that it wouldn't be fire damage? I just showed that the being could easily be immune to what YOU claimed it would take. I never asserted fire. You did. So... you're insulting yourself.



Or you could trap him in a closing demiplane. These are ways to get him in the sun, not to dispose of him permanently (come to think of it, trapping him in a plane where 1 round = 1 million years may be a better idea. He'll stay there for 0.1 billion years at least).


Yeah that would work as well, but that wasn't the option already discussed. My point in initially posting was that he could be "killed" with methods already discussed.



The Game Master is free to accept some homebrews and ban others. It's an implicit rule on all game tables, except those of the "anything goes" variety, of course. Jormengand explicitely said he would not allow homebrews with a perma-kill ability at his gaming table.


Of course he is. The Game Master is also required to be fair or have his players leave his table and find a better GM. One who allows homebrew, but doesn't allow logical homebrew, of which the inability to think still is not, as shown above again. Which is why I already stated, multiple times, that you need a fair DM for such a creature to work. Otherwise it's back to DM fiat.



No. The double created by a mirror of opposition disappears (does not die, disappears) when the original is slain. So Amkii dies, but it just returns at full health, and his double is not going to come back unless you create another. The double only slows Amkii down, and you cannot actually control it.


Except when Amkii "dies", he doesn't die. He falls unconscious for 20 minutes. So the creature remains. You also don't need to control it, since it tries to kill Amkii by virtue of the mirror of opposition.



The double from the Plane of Mirror, on the other hand, is a different creature that happens to have reverse chirality and alignment. Even if that double does exist (and I think I read somewhere earlier in this thread that Amkii doesn't have a mirror double), it's just a 2nd Amkii, not something the players can control (any more than they control Amkii, anyway).
[/QUOTE]

The second double however, still wants to kill Amkii, which means the player doesn't need to control it.

Unless I am remembering wrong. To be fair I may be on that.

Now, maybe if you stop getting angry over imagined slights, or at the very least misinterpreted ones, then you might make a better response to the whole thing about thought while unconscious. Because guess what? Dictionaries are a thing. Unconscious means not conscious. If you aren't conscious, you aren't capable of conscious thought, by sheer definition. Just because the authors of RAW didn't feel the need to educate us on definitions, doesn't make the rule exempt. Sorry that they figured we were smart enough to know what unconscious means. Any DM that lets you get away with that kind on shenanigan either really values your friendship and is worried that it'll be lost over this, is insane, or is way too nice. Or possibly planning to just get you for it later because they don't feel like wasting time with ridiculous arguments like this one.

If you were a Psionic character with a second mind that might work, except for you to actually be conscious while unconscious you'd need at least one of the minds to be conscious. But at least then you'd have a leg to stand on.

Jormengand
2015-07-26, 05:56 AM
What I want to know is how you're keeping Amkii unconscious when it has an ability which prevents you from doing that. It will be awake and immune at least one round, and it will teleport its butt out of there in that round.

AmberVael
2015-07-26, 06:56 AM
Trying to think of unusual and difficult to avoid attack methods is something I'm fond of, so since this thread popped back up I've been pondering it. I feel like if Amkii has a major weakness, its probably in this clause:


If an effect would teleport Amkii, or cause him in any way to move, he can choose whether or not he is affected by this. If an affect somehow stops Amkii from performing actions, or a specific type of action (such as a Temporal Stasis spell), this only remains the case for a maximum of 20 minutes. He is then immune to the effect for a further 20 minutes.

Now, your wording is a bit vague here, so its hard to tell exactly what would be needed, but the thought this provokes from me is that bypassing this is as simple as finding two different methods of preventing Amkii from performing actions, preferably ones that reassert themselves. As soon as he recovers from one, the other kicks in again as immunity leaves him, leaving Amkii continually actionless.

I imagine one of the more effective pieces for such an Inaction Device would be submersing him in quintessence. Its tricky to get him into it in the first place, but if you can disable him via some other method first, even temporarily (which seems more possible), then you could do it. Once submersed Amkii would be subjected to stasis, eventually gain immunity to it- but assuming a second force again rendered him actionless, he would remain in quintessence until his immunity would run out, at which point it would lock him in stasis again.

The Temporal Stasis spell might work as the other half, though depending on the exact nature of True Immortality it might be ended rather than simply suppressed. I assume that's probably the case, anyway, given that otherwise Temporal Stasis would end with Amkii spending half his time as a very life-like statue for the rest of eternity. There's probably a way you could set up automatic recastings of Temporal Stasis though. A trap of some kind, perhaps? Might be difficult to get working with Amkii encased in quintessence.

lunasmeow
2015-07-26, 07:28 AM
What I want to know is how you're keeping Amkii unconscious when it has an ability which prevents you from doing that. It will be awake and immune at least one round, and it will teleport its butt out of there in that round.

I think this was stated way back on page... 3-ish? When they first talked about putting him on the sun in the first place?

I also assume that by asking this question you aren't going to try and assert that conscious thought can be done while unconscious like Network is?

Ah, right. The permanent anti-magic field. That does it. Which is why you talked about him flying out of the sun. Because he couldn't teleport. The issue was getting him there. Which is solved if he can't choose to make teleport not affect him, due to being unconscious.

Honestly, you don't even need to teleport him. He's unconscious. Just pull gate shenanigans, and drag him through, while unconscious so he doesn't have a choice to negate that either. That way you don't have the chance of failing the teleport. The biggest flaw he has is that he goes unconscious, thereby removing his thought ability shenanigans, when he "dies" however temporarily. That allows people to put him wherever they wish, including in the center of a supermassive black hole, where time is effectively frozen, or even a demi-plane where time is frozen, so as to stop him from getting his 1 round action to ever return during the lifetime of their entire world. Problem solved.

nikkoli
2015-07-26, 08:12 AM
I may have missed it but can the Veteran kill him?

Jormengand
2015-07-26, 08:18 AM
Just pull gate shenanigans, and drag him through, while unconscious so he doesn't have a choice to negate that either.

Amkii can always choose whether to be affected or not. Always. Even then.

Also, didn't we go over the whole deities are immune to AMF thing?


I may have missed it but can the Veteran kill him?

No, but the veteran can certainly do quite a number on it. Given that Mortal Wounds can only be healed naturally, that's gonna take a while for Amkii to heal, though it's treated as nonlethal by Amkii.

Network
2015-07-26, 04:54 PM
What are you even talking about? You throw an accusation without stating what the accusation is? Wow. Starting to think your just a Troll.

That line right there states that unconsciousness and helplessness are different things. When you cannot think, you are unconscious. You are helpless as a result of being unconscious. They are two different conditions.
Stating I said unconsciousness and helplessness were the same condition, and then stating yourself that having an Intelligence of 0 and unconsciousness were the same thing, and then denying you did.

I never stated that you lose Int points from unconsciousness, that would be retarded. I was saying that he couldn't think because he was unconscious, a thing that the writers of RAW understood was simple English, because conscious thoughts requires consciousness. Which is why they worded the Int rule as they did. That's plain SRD. This would be a case of a player attempting to twist RAI by saying, it doesn't say that explicitly so it can't possibly mean that. Good thing this isn't a court of law, or it might actually fly. This is why you need DM's. To knock nonsense right out the window. Which is what thinking while unconscious is. At least about anything real and not something that your subconscious is dreaming while you're out.
Association fallacy. The only place in the SRD to make any connection between unconsciousness and the inability to think is about Intelligence damage. If it's true for one way to be unconscious, it doesn't need to be true for all ways.

Now, maybe if you stop getting angry over imagined slights, or at the very least misinterpreted ones
Of the two, I don't consider myself to be the angry one. I was responding to your own aggressive tone.

The Mentalist
2015-07-27, 08:36 AM
Popped in on this (after reading through the first three pages) to say that I understand the whole plot-device of it and very much appreciate the non Lady of Pain style plot armor. I think that it is kind of a weird thing to try and hammer out. IMHO it's almost worse to kludge the effects together like this as a player, it feels like you're just putting more effort into "Just No" but as a DM I understand the wanting solid mechanics of it so you know in advance what you can do with it and correspondingly how your players can defeat (not kill, defeat) this thing.

I do have one thing though...

So much cooler as a template...

Bob the Dirt Farmer has been wishing for death since the day Emperor Claus Von Murder's soldiers came and slaughtered his family... alas it will never come.

It would also make a good "Elder Evil in a Can" sort of thing.

Obviously player do not get this template but I find that many MM monsters can become much more unique with a template or two and a re-skin. This is in a more general sense obviously but I hope my point is understood.

But yeah, Template. Totally should be a thing.

Network
2015-07-27, 04:09 PM
So much cooler as a template...

Bob the Dirt Farmer has been wishing for death since the day Emperor Claus Von Murder's soldiers came and slaughtered his family... alas it will never come.

It would also make a good "Elder Evil in a Can" sort of thing.

Obviously player do not get this template but I find that many MM monsters can become much more unique with a template or two and a re-skin. This is in a more general sense obviously but I hope my point is understood.

But yeah, Template. Totally should be a thing.
Heroes of Horror does have the soul-locked creature template, which does just that (well, almost). It functions by giving a ghost's rejuvenation ability on any creature, and as long as the creature is not killed in a specific way (one of the examples given is being killed with a gold weapon), it has a chance to return (though not necessarily as a living creature). The respawn time is somewhat longer than for a ghost (4d10 days), but enough of it is left at the GM discretion that he could decide that a soul-locked soul cannot be trapped, or that the creature respawns anywhere the plot demands (not necessarily close to the body).