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Foxer
2007-02-28, 06:28 AM
Preamble

I've been following the PCs vs Army thread, and I am interested in persuing the idea further. I'm posting this as a new thread, partially because there's already about a zillion conflicting arguements going on over there, and I'd like to talk about a specific - if hypothetical - scenario, which I will outline below.

Just for the sake of clarity, here's a summary of my position on the subject:

In a base-line D&D game, an army should be able to defeat a bunch of PCs, regardless of how powerful they are. NPC-classed troops are weak compared to PCs, and will take heavy casualties, but the army's natural 20s and the PCs natural 1s would rapidly stack up until the the PCs fell or were forced to flee the field. Thus the answer to the OP was "no, PC classes do not make armies irrelevant."

That's a base-line assumption. I did say that there were arguments for the DM running things the other way, in a different setting, and I used the Iliad as an example (though not everyone agreed, obviously).

Okay... ramble over. Here is a hypothetical PC vs Army situation. I'd like to know (A) what readers would do as the attacking NPC army, (B) what readers would do as the defending PC party, and (C) how, as a DM / referee, you would see the battle panning out. NB: just to keep things simple, I've restricted the player and non-player classes to the ones in the PH and DMG.

Scenario

The forest nation of Cherrywood has long been at peace with its neighbour, the Duchy of the Iron Hills. Cherrywood is (since I'll try to keep things simple) a square nation with borders fifty miles along each side (200 miles total). It has a population of 15,000, split more-or-less evenly between humans, elves and halflings. Cherrywood maintains no army, relying on a cadre of Rangers for protection and law-enforcement, along with a number of powerful spellcasters. Since Cherrywood is peaceful, its entire population, other than the rangers and spellcasters, is made up of level 1-5 commoners, who have no weapons other than hunting bows and knives. The population is scattered throughout the area, with no settlement larger than 1,000 people to be found within its borders. The country as a whole consists of densely wooded hills, crisscrossed with small streams and brooks.

Since Cherrywood is entirely within the borders of the larger Duchy of the Iron Hills, it can be surrounded, but it cannot be starved into submission. Its defensive forces are as follows:

One (1) level 20 human druid
One (1) level 10 human druid, the designated successor to the above.
One (1) level 5 human druid, student of the above.
One (1) level 3 human druid, student of the above.
One (1) level 1 human druid, student of the above.

One (1) level 20 halfling wizard
One (1) level 10 halfling wizard

One (1) level 20 elf general (Arcane Archer 10, Ranger 6, Sorcerer 4)
One (1) level 10 elf ranger

Fifty (50) other rangers, evenly split between levels 1-5.

TOTAL NUMBER OF DEFENDERS: 59

The Duchy of the Iron Hills has long resented the existence of an independent, non-taxable enclave within its borders, and Duke William has decided to "rationalise" matters. He has levied an impressive army over the course of about six months (so the defenders will know he's coming). He has a population of 150,000 to draw upon, and no external threats to his rule.

The attacking forces are as follows:

Duke William (level 10 warrior, level 5 aristocrat)
Duke William's bodyguard (ten level 2 warriors)
Bishop Odo, William's brother (level 5 warrior, level 5 adept)
Bishop Odo's staff (ten level 2 adepts)

William's knights (500 mounted warriors of level 5, equipped with platemail, large shields and heavy warhorses)
Freebooter knights (500 mounted warriors of level 3, equiped with chainmail, large shields and light warhorses)
Mounted scouts (500 mounted warriors of level 1, equipped with leather armour, shortbows and riding horses)

Foresters (200 warriors of level 2, equipped with leather armour and longbows)
Heavy foot (1,000 warriors of level 1, equipped with platemail, large shields and half-spears)
Light foot (1,000 warriors of level 1, equipped with leather armour and shortbows)
Mercenary foot (1,000 warriors of level 2, equipped with chainmail and heavy crossbows)
Levy foot (3,000 commoners of level 1, equipped with padded armour, small shields and half-spears)
Settlers (3,000 commoners of level 1, armed with shortbows and cudgels)

Company of sappers (300 experts of level 3, mainly artisans, alchemists and engineers)

TOTAL NUMBER OF ATTACKERS: 11,022

Both sides may draft extra level one commoners to serve in the fighting, but William has ten times the number of commoners to call upon.

How do people think this will this play out?

Winterking
2007-02-28, 07:11 AM
As William, the first thing I would do would be to sent the Freebooter knights, the Light foot, and a great many Settlers to overrun the Borders of Cherrywood. That's ~3000, and I'd make sure to advise them to stay in bands of less than thirty. So, 100 or more bands of combatants, with instructions to "loot what you can, don't kill anyone who's on our side, and have a good time."

With the dispersed population and irregular terrain of Cherrywood, the defenders would have to expend considerable effort to catch and destroy all 100 bands of attackers. They'd have less than one PC per two groups, and even thirty level one commoners would have an okay chance against a level 1 or 2 ranger. I'd probably lose most of this wave, eventually, but it would occupy the attention of the defending forces. Most importantly, I'd sent those folks a-raiding well before the rest of my army was ready to go--everything the enemy 'casters did to me and my preparations would mean more devastation on the home front.
Assuming I survived six months of enemy awareness, I'd gather the more mobile, lighter elements of the army, and follow a similar pattern of devastationon a larger scale. My bodyguards, Odo's staff, and my knights would lead columns of ~400 men, staggered around Cherrywood's borders. Any village the forces would encounter would be given a choice: join my duchy, or be burned. If they joined, they'd get a garrison, some gold (people like gifts, and money makes a good gift), and the column would move along. If they refused to join my duchy, I'd take their food, burn their homes, and keep moving. When a column came under serious attack, either by one of the Wizards or one of the Druids, they'd retreat and/or scatter. "Run away" is not a hard order to follow.

In the end, it's entirely possible that each of the columns would be scattered by the casters and rangers--however, the result of each such 'victory' would be the creation of more bandits hiding out in the hills, waiting for a chance to get more loot and/or sneak back home. Cherrywood's isolated settlements would be easy prey, and many of them would be damaged. Attrition would take a heavy toll on Cherrywood's defenders, and even the lvl20s would get tired of day after day after week after week of "Find a band of enemies. Attack them. Spend all day chasing them through thickets after they scatter. Sleep. Wake up. Repeat."

In exchange for becoming a part of my territory, I would call off the raiders, and end the raids, offering the protection of my armies, and food supplies/reconstruction payments for towns that surrendered.

The biggest problem William faces is that Cherrywood's population is so dispersed--there's little in the way of centers to take and hold, so there's limited point in concentrating the army. Better to spread everybody out, use the advantage of numbers, and do my utmost to destroy the little nation. If I take away their livelihood, wreck their crops, and burn their homes, their ability to resist my forces will dwindle greatly. The effect will be more pronounced if, in places that agree to submit to my rule, I treat the inhabitants well, even preferentially to my home territories.

Winterking
2007-02-28, 07:17 AM
As Cherrywood, on the other hand, I'd do two things.
1) Concentrate the population. I'd have the inhabitants find some relatively fortified spot, bring food supplies, etc, and gather there. Maybe 5 spots, each with 3,000. I'd make sure that William knew where they were.

When his armies moved towards the new population centers, the rangers would ambush and lay traps; the wizards would teleport in, launch some fireballs, and pop out. The Iron Hills army would be no real match for a repeated magical barrage, stretched over the 2-3 days it would take them to march to my fortifications. Then there's the attack; again, the spellcasting power of the wizards and druids could deal a ridiculous amount of casualties, demoralizing the army, and getting rid of the better-trained, better-equipped warriors.

2) once I learned William was planning to invade, start raiding his territory, through weekly wizard-'porting, wild-shaped-druid infiltration, etc. Hurt him as much as I could BEFORE he invaded. Possibly even have the chief wizard try to take out William himself. Basically, make the invasion as expensive and unpleasant an activity as possible.

Sardia
2007-02-28, 07:25 AM
Personally, were I defending, I wouldn't bother with fighting in the field. Either off the Duke in such a manner as to impress his successor, or mind control him, or something equally likely to motivate a change of foreign policy.

Swordguy
2007-02-28, 07:28 AM
Headhunter mission: The halfling wizard teleports the wildshaped Druid (in bird or some other innocuous form) into the general viscinity of the Duke's castle. The druid then proceeds to infiltrate the castle and hit the Duke in his chambers. A War10/Aristo5 (plus maybe 5 lvl 2 warriors - the other 5 being off-duty) vs a lvl 20 Druid? Yeah, no contest. War's over.

Foxer
2007-02-28, 08:07 AM
Headhunter mission: The halfling wizard teleports the wildshaped Druid (in bird or some other innocuous form) into the general viscinity of the Duke's castle. The druid then proceeds to infiltrate the castle and hit the Duke in his chambers. A War10/Aristo5 (plus maybe 5 lvl 2 warriors - the other 5 being off-duty) vs a lvl 20 Druid? Yeah, no contest. War's over.

Yeah. I was thinking that something like that would be possible, and William really wouldn't stand a chance against any of Cherrywood's big guns. But the problem with assassinating the enemy leader is that it leaves you nobody to negotiate with. Plus, William's successor (most likely his brother or another kinsman) will probably be out for revenge. The spell-casters might be better off standing William's forces off and negotiating a settlement, than facing his brother's vengeful crusade. Assassinations are like chemical and nuclear weapons in the real world - effective, but nobody wants to use them first.

Subotei
2007-02-28, 08:18 AM
Got to agree with Sardia and sword guy - Attacking William and his support services on home territory would be best. William has little magical support so that is his vulnerability, also his supply chain, as he's not equipped with magical means of suppling all his food needs.

Cherrywood's priorities would be:
Hide the population (nobody with tracking skills in William's Army?)
Headhunter attack as mentioned above.
Attacks on supply convoys, depots, and any juicy, expensive and under-defended targets on Williams territory.
Attacks on any targets of opportunity presented by the invaders (foraging troops etc.)


Williams priorities would be:
Sacking the low level warriors and get in some magical support for protection.


To be honest, Cherrywood should win easily as its stands - William is extremely vulnerable to the wizard(s) (locate him, teleport in, improved invisibility, fly, followed by an array of death-dealing spells, them teleport home in time for happy hour down the Orc's Head). There is probably no need to target his army at all.

Swordguy
2007-02-28, 08:22 AM
Yeah. I was thinking that something like that would be possible, and William really wouldn't stand a chance against any of Cherrywood's big guns. But the problem with assassinating the enemy leader is that it leaves you nobody to negotiate with. Plus, William's successor (most likely his brother or another kinsman) will probably be out for revenge. The spell-casters might be better off standing William's forces off and negotiating a settlement, than facing his brother's vengeful crusade. Assassinations are like chemical and nuclear weapons in the real world - effective, but nobody wants to use them first.

Given the forces arrayed, the OPFOR has no way to effectively counter-assassinate Cherrywood leadership - largely owing to the high PC levels of said leadership.

I would also point out, that in an open field battle, Cherrywood's non-caster defenders would fall. If nothing else, you'd have all the mooks taking the "assist other" action for thier squad sergeant to make an attack against a PC-type. The trick here is for Cherrywood to never get into an open field battle. We are, of course, also assuming there is no wizard cheezery like wishing the Duke to abandon all present and future plans of conquest. Or massive numbers of summoned creatures/outsiders pulling an infinite gate routine on the Druid's behalf.

If it matters, I've actually gamed this sort of thing out in the old D&D Mass Battle system for 2nd ed. Other guys around the table had uber-elite PC builds, or dragons, or vampire, or beholder squadrons. I had 62 feet of 1st-level fighters. I was utterly massacred. High-level magic makes up for a lot of numerical disparity. Heck, just the Earthquakes alone, cast under the army's command elements...

If you top the PC level stuff out in the 14-16 area, it gets a little more reasonable.

Sardia
2007-02-28, 08:44 AM
Yeah. I was thinking that something like that would be possible, and William really wouldn't stand a chance against any of Cherrywood's big guns. But the problem with assassinating the enemy leader is that it leaves you nobody to negotiate with. Plus, William's successor (most likely his brother or another kinsman) will probably be out for revenge. The spell-casters might be better off standing William's forces off and negotiating a settlement, than facing his brother's vengeful crusade. Assassinations are like chemical and nuclear weapons in the real world - effective, but nobody wants to use them first.
Cherrywood doesn't actually have to assassinate, though, at least not at first. Dominate Person by that 20th level wizard gives 20 days where the Duke dances to Cherrywood's tune.
More than enough time to screw everything humanly possible with the invasion, including the food supply. In the ideal world, within the duration you should be able to have eleven thousand angry soldiers looting and burning inside the Duke's main city/castle as they carry on a grudge-settling series of battles among themselves.
Sure, someone's going to notice that the Duke's acting funny. What are they going to do about it that doesn't start a civil war, though?

Edit: Oh, and if you can convince the army commanders that you have a secret weapon-- a wizard of your own who has agreed to cast a teleportation circle which will allow a surprise attack into the heart of the enemy's territory...it's just a matter of seeing how many circles you'll need to cast to send eleven thousand troops to the bottom of the nearest ocean or a someplace a few hundred miles away and a few hundred feet in the air.

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-28, 08:52 AM
My post assumes access to the Spell Compendium

As Cheeywood
To make sure that you knwo when the enemy is invading the wizard (1 day per week or so) prepares 3-4 contact other planes and asks "Is cheerywood going to be attacked in the next year?" (suitably lawyered up to avoid mistakes). Assuming that you get a yes then you prepares some more CoP the next day and get some more detailed infromation. Once you find out the invasion date to within a week or so (should take 2-3 days) then you start preperations.

You send the wizard out to scout out teh terrain so that he can teleport to it. You send out the rangers to find likely attack routes and you plan ambushes and the like. Setting up a couple of Teleportation Circles (permanent) in strategic locations is a good bet as well.

Remeber, all of the animals and a lot of the plants in the forest are your eyes and ears. With a level 20 ranger and a level 20 druid you can get the birds and animals to spy for you with little trouble. You will know where every enemy solider is at all times. Ambushes and the like are incredible easy.

Assuming you have the money you can call dragons (a 9th level spell in the SC gives yo ua 21 HD one for like 20 thousand GP and it will carry out 1 task for you (destroy the enemy army) is a valid mission for it. Cast it 5 times and you have a force the invaders will be unable to defeat. But lets assume that we are constrained to core.

With a rod of maximize a druid can change the weather in a 3 mile radius circle to whatever he wants and it lasts 4 days. Even at the base 4 7th level spells per day that druid can make a 12 mile radius circle have the worst weather (blizzards for 4 days or torrential rain make an invasion very hard).

Antipathy can be cast by both the wizard and druid and makes it so a low level character can't even approach an area that is quite large (20 10 foot cubes). The invaders will never make the save and it lasts 40 hours. Use it on a ford and the invaders are stopped. Or to cut off retreat. Or to keep them from a specific path.

All of the above is if you don't just assassinate the duke and tell his replacement that if he tries to invade the same thing will happen to him.

EDIT: Another good idea is permanent Alarm spells. Most of the rangers can cast it and you have 2 wizards that can make it permanent. Used on strategic locatiosn and the invaders will never be able to ambush your forces.

And various other spelsl can be used to trick the enemy forces.

EDIT 2: The Druid spel lcommune with nature cast by a 20th level druid has a radius of 20 miles. 2 castings covers your entire kingdom. And it can be used to let you know the state of your kingdom (like when you are invaded)

As the invaders
You find some way to get magical support or you are screwed.

Foxer
2007-02-28, 09:08 AM
Given the forces arrayed, the OPFOR has no way to effectively counter-assassinate Cherrywood leadership - largely owing to the high PC levels of said leadership.

I would also point out, that in an open field battle, Cherrywood's non-caster defenders would fall. If nothing else, you'd have all the mooks taking the "assist other" action for thier squad sergeant to make an attack against a PC-type. The trick here is for Cherrywood to never get into an open field battle. We are, of course, also assuming there is no wizard cheezery like wishing the Duke to abandon all present and future plans of conquest. Or massive numbers of summoned creatures/outsiders pulling an infinite gate routine on the Druid's behalf.

If it matters, I've actually gamed this sort of thing out in the old D&D Mass Battle system for 2nd ed. Other guys around the table had uber-elite PC builds, or dragons, or vampire, or beholder squadrons. I had 62 feet of 1st-level fighters. I was utterly massacred. High-level magic makes up for a lot of numerical disparity. Heck, just the Earthquakes alone, cast under the army's command elements...

If you top the PC level stuff out in the 14-16 area, it gets a little more reasonable.

Although the attacking force can't counter-assassinate Cherrywood's leaders, they can use their overwhelming numbers to slaughter hordes of Cherrywood's population, so they do have a response to a decapitation strike.

Assassinating William and Odo might not end the war. Their troops and successors will likely be out for blood, and, worse, with their leaders gone the Duchy might collapse into banditry and petty-warlordism. I'm not saying you're wrong - William is very vulnerable - just that assassination might open up a worse can of worms for all concerned.

Mind control magic is almost certainly a better bet, on reflection, and, like you say, the really big spells, like wish, are obvious war-winners.

Speaking just for myself, if I was in William's shoes I'd grab plenty of hostages early on, and make it known that if I die - or start acting "funny" - they die too. Of course, it's no defense against an enemy as ruthless as I am. They'd just chalk up the hostages as acceptable losses and job me anyway.

Whilst I haven't played Mass Battle, I've played a lot of Warhammer in my time. In Warhammer, I've found, good rank-and-file tended to beat heroes every time, though the balance was shifting the other way when I finally bailed on the game (around 4th/5th edition).

Can I ask, though, what would you do in William's position? Can he beat the level disparity?

Dervag
2007-02-28, 10:35 AM
In William's position, I'd make peace. It's not worth the risk.

There's at least a chance that he could succeed using raiding tactics like the ones described above. If I were crazy enough to take that chance:

There are only five or six people in Cherrywood (the senior PCs) that could realistically hope to stand off an entire raiding party singlehandedly; and if the Cherrywooders start taking casualties among their rangers their ability to defend themselves against raiders drops even lower than it already is. Therefore, they can't stop that many raiding parties in one day, and it would only take a few weeks for thousands of raiders to make the Cherrywooders miserable.

I would not bunch up my army if humanly possible. I would spend a truly insane amount of money on devices designed to protect me, personally, from scrying and attack, because I'd know very well that the enemy has two to four casters that could eat me for breakfast if they were so inclined. I might very well spend the next several weeks with a ring of invisibility on at all times, just to make it that much harder for the wizards to find me.

However, while these tactics might work, or at least have a better chance of working than any other plan I'm likely to come up with, they're not good enough. From the perspective of a non-caster in a low-magic environment like the Duchy of Normandy (er, Iron Hills), a L20 wizard or druid is almost indistinguishable from a demigod. I'd put up with the enclave's existence simply because the L20 wizard, alone, could cause far more damage to my duchy than I could hope to recoup by conquering Cherrywood.

Lapak
2007-02-28, 10:40 AM
From the perspective of a non-caster in a low-magic environment like the Duchy of Normandy (er, Iron Hills), a L20 wizard or druid is almost indistinguishable from a demigod. I'd put up with the enclave's existence simply because the L20 wizard, alone, could cause far more damage to my duchy than I could hope to recoup by conquering Cherrywood.This is an excellent point. Could he conquer Cherrywood? Quite possibly. But all that would do is unleash several extremely upset one-man guerrilla armies on his own territory. They could single-handedly savage towns and settlements covering a much greater area than what I gain before I tracked them down, if I even ever could. They would make it a lose-lose proposition.

martyboy74
2007-02-28, 10:55 AM
Switzerland is a good example here, when they were the invincible island of peace.

Person_Man
2007-02-28, 04:00 PM
Having played virtually every tabletop miniature game out there for the last ten years, its my opinion that D&D is a very poor combat system for large scale encounters. Once you get above a few dozen or so pieces, one round can take an hour, players will wait forever until their turn comes around, and things get really boring and even more confusing.

Heroes of Battle gives some great small scale scenarios for war themed campaigns (rescue POWs, defend a bridge, spy on a general). But attempting to play or even to model any large scale combat with D&D, even hypothetically, is a bad idea in my opinion. The mechanics just aren't built to handle them.

Jacob Orlove
2007-02-28, 05:02 PM
You wouldn't even have to model this with in-combat rounds, because the best options for the spellcasters are out of combat spells. Setting up Walls of Stone would take about 42,000 castings to surround the country with a 20' wall, but Shambling Mound would take only 3200 castings to protect the whole border (unfortunately, with a duration of merely 7 months, you can't get a full defense going). There are probably better defensive spells than those, too. If you can centralize the population, it would be trivial to set up ideal defenses in a matter of days.

Dark_Wind
2007-02-28, 05:15 PM
Personally, I like the basic idea behind all this, but here's the problem:

20th level Druid. 20th level Wizard.

Cherrywood wins.

I would argue that PC classes don't, in fact, make armies obsolete. Howevever, they can completely crush any army that is entirely formed of non-magic NPC classes. True, your average battlefield mook is probably a warrior at absolute best, but most armies aught to have at least a small group of people who are strronger than that.

Clerics of war dieties, fighters, warmages, the occasional wizard, someone capable of tracking and scouting, heck, even bards (think about it. A single fourth level singing bard with resounding voice can be heard out to 400ft. Inspirational boost makes the bonus from inspire courage to +2. Let's see now: All my troops in a 400ft. radius get a +2 on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saves against fear? 4th level isn't very high. Surely a well funded army can afford to train a few bards, at least for its elite regiments).

Trying to fight a war in D&D without any magic at all (and if you only have NPC classes, that's what you'll be doing) is like trying to fight a modern war without firearms. It isn't going to happen.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-28, 05:19 PM
Yeah, basically, everyone except the level 20 wizard and level 20 druid become irrelevant. Between them they can make Cherrywood entirely unfindable (Mirage Arcana, say, plus Illusionary Terrain, et cetera), and then just pick off hundreds or thousands of troops at a time.

Jacob Orlove
2007-02-28, 05:22 PM
Honestly, the best plan for the Wizard and Druid is probably just to conquer the surrounding Duchy. That should protect Cherrywood pretty effectively.

ravenkith
2007-02-28, 05:44 PM
1. Assasinations:
Sorry, but assasinations are suprisingly effective, especially when used merely as a means to buy time. Even if the enemy decides to continue attacking you, killing key members of their leadership will leave them in disarray, and unable to respond rapidly.

It's very simple: you keep killing all of the enemy's leaders until you get to one who stops attacking you.

Worse, a level 20 wizard can get it done without ever seeing his enemy.

2. Theft:
Alternatively, rob the enemy kingdom of all it's gold. Shortly the enemy leader will be unable to pay for supplies, or meet the salaries of his men.

3. Direct conflict:

A level 20 wizard can kill an entire army of low level individuals with little or no risk to himself.

Anybody who says differently simply hasn't done their research.

Thanks to such useful spells as otiluke's resilient sphere and otilukes telekinetic sphere, especially when used in conjunction with summoning spells and spells that cause effects to appear at the target, rather than having to travel from the caster to the target, a wizard can happily kill thousands of enemies (as long as they are below level five) with next to no risk.

The Manyjaws spell (spell compendium) in particular seems tailor made for this kind of environment.

If it's got to be over relatively quickly, Combine with the druid's capability to manipulate the weather (Control Winds, Control Weather), and this game is over right after it's begun (about 20 minutes elapsed). Look up the rules on hurricanes sometimes.

Given that ol' Iron Pants doesn't have any druids, it looks like it's going to be a very bad day for him and his men as they all get picked up in the air by hurricane force winds and tossed around repeatedly for 20d6 falling damage each time.

Sardia
2007-02-28, 05:49 PM
Honestly, the best plan for the Wizard and Druid is probably just to conquer the surrounding Duchy. That should protect Cherrywood pretty effectively.

Yeah, but then you have to run the place. Find the Duke, tie him down, and cast Geas: "You will protect Cherrywood from invasion by any force, including your own."
Let him worry about the rest of it.

okpokalypse
2007-02-28, 06:03 PM
If I'm Cherrywood, I change the battle to be on my terms.

First, the contingency plans:

The L20 Wizard finds a suitable place for the 15,000 or so inhabitants to relocate to for a short duration. It shouldn't take more than a week or so of scouting via high movement-rate flight & teleportation to accomplish this. Then, set up a pair of permanent teleportation circles for immediate back and forth transit at the main settlement. These would be in a locale created via the Druid' Stone Shaping spells (underground) and that locale is only know to the Druids / Rangers / Wizards right now. The populace will be made aware that if an attack happens, to retreat to this settlement, and seek any of the aforementioned PC classes for direction for escape.

Then, start setting up a place that can hold up for a month or two, and be made permanent if absolutely necessary. Only a small hand-picked few settlers should be utilized in doing this - mostly those who tend livestock and population supplies for sustenance. The rest doing this are the low-level rangers and druids. This is accomplished in about a month most likely. If there's no game there, we can take wildlife through and start breeding them. Yay!

The lower-level wizard's sole job is to scry on Lord Wilhelm and keep abreast of movements and readiness.

Next, the Offensive:

Then, once the escape route for the populace is in place and the destination readied (1 month maybe?) the two high level casters go on the offensive v. Wilhelm's men.

While the L10 is scrying, he's got a Telepathic Bond set up with the two L20's who are utilizing ShapeChance to assume Great Wyrn Red-Dragon Forms. These last for 200 Minutes. During this time they have:

Flight (200'), 41 AC, Frightful Presence (DC 38), Breath Weapon (Fire - 24d10, DC 40), DR 20 / Magic, SR 32.

They both, communicating with the L10 Wizard, go right for Wilhelm, Bishop Odo and their immediate bodyguard / staff. I think this is quick and painless for the L20s. Wilhelm, with great stats and magical equipment likely has an attack roll of +20 or worse. Meaning he only hits 5% of the time. The Dragon's inherited SR cannot be overcome by any casters. It's a slaughter.

Then, with the time left, they take out any local knights and heavy foot. They attempt to keep non-military citizens out of hams ways if possible, but don't not take the chance to roast a squad of knights or something if a few innocent bystanders are caught in it. Such is war.

In those few hours they should decimate the command, take out a large portion of the enemy's elite units and break the morale of the 7,000 mercenaries & commoner conscripts. If this doesn't end it there, I'd be surprised.

Utilizing the Contingency:

Just in case there's a counter-offensive planned, runners (rangers) are on watch during this (as they always should be) and instructed to raise an alarm and speed back to the L10 Wizard. The Telepathic Bond is then already in place to immediately communicate this to the Wizard and he returns via teleport and wreaks havoc on the insurgence back home while everyone begins to flee to a safe region via the teleportation circle he's arranged.

If, by some astounding chance the counter-offensive is successful in reaching the primary settlement, the L20 Wizard waits as long as he can, and then Dispels his Permancy & Teleportation Circle to the remote location - then teleports there himself. There, he and the L20 Druid prepare for another assault to remove the insurgents and/or destroy the agressive army altogether. Citizen casualties at this point are not a concern.

Beyond the first Assault:

Whenever a new leader is appointed, they will be given notice that they have 1 week to sign a declaration of peace. If they fail to do so, the same thing's gonna happen, or maybe it'll be mixed up to Elder Elementals or something. Who knows... If they do sign it, they will be made aware that scrying will continue until we can be sure of their commitment to peace. In fact, we'll be happy to send rangers to help them rebuild the damage we've done - provided during that time they're not mobilizing for war, and the ranger's safety is guaranteed. If those terms are violated, it starts all over again.

Anything I missed?

okpokalypse
2007-02-28, 06:06 PM
Yeah, basically, everyone except the level 20 wizard and level 20 druid become irrelevant. Between them they can make Cherrywood entirely unfindable (Mirage Arcana, say, plus Illusionary Terrain, et cetera), and then just pick off hundreds or thousands of troops at a time.

Ohh, I like that tactic... Quicker and less overhead than the Permanent Teleportation circles... Hell, utilize both, just in case they somehow get through it :).

Dausuul
2007-02-28, 06:21 PM
Assuming that neither side gets significant time to prepare, it's pretty much a no-win scenario. The Duke levies a whole heap of commoners and orders his army to split up into lots of tiny warbands, savage the countryside of Cherrywood for three months while living off the land, and disregard all other orders they receive during that time (this prevents Cherrywood from dominating the Duke and giving the order to withdraw). Even if the Cherrywood population gets evacuated, their crops and towns are laid waste. The Cherrywood PCs cannot stop all those thousands of little raiding parties in time--the Cherrywood firepower is too heavily concentrated.

What the Cherrywood PCs can do is annihilate the Duke and all the ranking nobles of the Duchy. The end result is that Cherrywood ends up as a bunch of rulers without a realm, and the Duchy ends up as a realm without rulers.

Edit: Didn't see the bit where Cherrywood gets six months' advance notice. In that case, the Duke is screwed. As soon as they get the word that the invasion is coming, the defenders of Cherrywood kill, dominate, or otherwise dissuade him, and the invasion is called off. Even if they don't do that for some reason, the Cherrywood casters have six months to prepare defenses along a mere two hundred miles of border.

I have to say that this scenario isn't quite fair to the Duke. He has to spend six months getting his army ready to march, while the Cherrywooders can have their "army" ready to go in one day--they get six months of free raiding. A fairer match would assume that relations between the two nations had been good for a long time, the Duke had carefully concealed his intentions and mustered his army for some other purpose, and then turned on Cherrywood with no warning. Or that the Cherrywood PCs were first level six months ago and spent the intervening time putting in some heavy adventuring.

kellandros
2007-02-28, 06:33 PM
Looking over previous responses, most people vote towards Cherrywood having strong advantages. They want to avoid a straightforward fight- where numbers most come into play, and appear to have the means to do so: rangers and druids have good advantages in the wild, and can distract and delay large marching forces. Wizards, well, are wizards.

I think where the scenario breaks down is the choices available to each character. High level characters, spellcasters especially, have a huge range of actions they can take(from the suprise attack on the enemy leaders through teleport and invisibility to domination/mind control to mass destruction). Cherrywood also has about 9 mid to high level spell casters, plus the low level rangers, versus 3 low level adepts(max spellcaster level 5). Just the difference in healing magic available would make some difference between skirmishes.

Low level fighters pretty much just attack once each round. It would be pretty hard to force a battle in a situation where the sheer numbers come into effect- you want 20:1 odds or better, based on rolling natural twenties. This heavily implies ranged combat. If the rangers are smart and can take any form of cover, the extra miss chances take the odds of anyone hitting them even lower.

The ways that the Iron Hills can fight effectively are not strongly addressed by the D&D rules. The most crucial advantage a trained army has is tactics and formations, things that can be hard to pull off well in D&D combat. Traditional formations, like shield walls, charging lines, and phalanxes become quite hazardous around area of effect spells. Their purpose is to let soldiers work together, fighting in mutual support. Soldiers should also fight as defensively as possible in melee- no individual heroics. Instead of fighting a single soldier of equal level, you want to defend and stay alive until 2-3 shieldmates can join you on picking off that one guy.

Tactics generally are clever ways to take away an advantage your opponent has by using one of yours. What advantages do we need to negate?
- Area effect spells- spread out troops into smaller groups, but not spread far enough that they can be ambushed and destroyed seperately.
- Surprise teleportation assasination- disguise checks: avoid looking unique by either blending in with normal soldiers or making body doubles. Probably high enough magic can overcome this.
- Mental domination- as previously suggested, hostages and multiple trusted assistants to watch for "funny" behavior.
- Stealth/camoflauge- Scorched earth campaign. Destroy everything as you pass. Make sure there is no thicket to hide under, tree to climb, dark shadows to slip amongst. Have about half the troops as guards, ready to respond to any attacks, while the rest destroy. Bonus effect of intimidation, but may just strengthen depth of resistance.
- Teleportation- be in too many different places.

You probably can't prevent any magic effect fully, but you can make it cost them more spells and time to try.

If we took just the three level 20 leaders and their three level 10 assistants, how many low level soldiers would technically make a CR level challenge for them?

If you cut the levels of everybody in half(level 10 leaders and specialists versus level 5 leader and low level army), I think it would be more balanced. Level 20 is pretty outrageously powerful. And the big army of the iron hills could use a cadre of low level clerics to keep the numerical superiority thing going. Not sure how many would avoid being unbalancing, but maybe cut down the number of mercenaries or heavy foot?

Dark
2007-02-28, 07:00 PM
Honestly, the best plan for the Wizard and Druid is probably just to conquer the surrounding Duchy. That should protect Cherrywood pretty effectively.
But where do you stop? Now you need to protect your Duchy.

Jack_Simth
2007-02-28, 08:40 PM
Ohh... forested area? The whole place? Six Months to prepare?

Let's see....

Wizard takes his time to Call things. A peaceful, nature-based society, defending it's own borders? Shouldn't be too difficult to Greater Planar Bind a bunch of Hound Archons to patrol (as scouts), and some Planetars to deal with invaders (have fun stopping a Fly-90(good) with DR 10/Evil, Regeneration 10, and Holy Smite at will; Holy Smite to remove all the neutral or Evil soldiers in the army, DR and Regeneration to survive; then mop up any good opponents it can't convince to give up the unjust war with the +3 Greatsword or the Slam - and that's discounting the Cleric-17 spellcasting). Wizard has six months to pull these up, but open-ended tasks are limited to Caster Level days. Two castings of Greater Planar Bingind each day gets three Hound Archons and one Planetar (four castings of Magic Circle against Good, Dimensional Anchor, and Moment of Prescience... potentially; there's ways around the need for them, depending on the DM, but let's assume they're still needed for the time being).

Wizard does this for the entire six months (as well as using various means to spy on the army). Planetars (average of about 18 on any given day after day 20) go around using Wall of Stone a lot. Cover borders, wall villages, and so forth - the populace needs reasonable temporary retreat locations where a quickly patrolling Hound Archon (average of about 54 on any given day at day 20+) can Teleport off (Greater Teleport, at will is FUN) to fetch a Planetar or two to deal with any problems that show up.

Deals with both scattered raiders and a concentrated army; populace flees from a raider and alerts a hound (with say, 400 villages, a Hound Archon can be by every 4-8 rounds on a regular patrol - at will Greater Teleport is FUN) which can then fetch one of the Planetars (and Hound Archons in canine form - wolf, say - have a +16 to follow tracks; a Hound Archon, taking 10 in wolf form, traveling at a normal pace for a -5 modifier to the check, makes DC 21 - following tracks for a lone medium individual on hard ground the day after; the forest is mostly firm ground (base DC 15). If you raid in groups of 10 with small creatures deliberatley hiding their trail (total Survival DC 18), a raiding party WILL be found (and quickly - wolf has a move of 50, Planetar flies along behind). If you bunch up an army, the Hound Archons report that, too, and the defenders bunch up the Planetars to compensate.

Purely defensive measures. You're unlikely to tick off any of the outsiders you're calling overly much. At the end of 6 months, it's not too hard to conceive of a forest that's totally Walled off, 10 feet high, with all villages having a decent sized retreat where opponents basically have to come in one at a time vs. spread out peasant archers.

If the Wiz-20 actually gets angry, well.... a Wizard can call things like Pit Fiends the same way, and have them go do mean things to Iron Hills. How hard, really, is it to convince a Lawful Evil pit fiend to, say, kill X people in a particular geographic area? I mean really - Greater Teleport and Fireball at will, fly-60, DR 15/Good and Silver, Regeneration-5? Kinda hard to stop the mayhem. For spying, little beats Succubi's loadout. And the Wizard can get three of them with a single casting of Greater Planar Binding.

I'm sorry, I can't easily picture the Iron Hills winning by anything other than surrender or Wizard laziness/stupidity. Wiz never needs to encounter his opponents at all.

Edit:
Oh, wait - there's other defenders too?

Hmm... well, Wiz-10 can... umm... lesser planar bind hound archons. Maybe. General can organize the outsiders. Druid... umm... heavy artilary when needed? Meh. Doesn't matter too much.

Winterking
2007-02-28, 09:15 PM
Better idea:
William forms a non-aggression/alliance pact with other, nearby duchies--duchies which have their own casters. The only important terms of the pacts are that if the Iron Hills are attacked, the allies will join the conflict.

has his army dig a deep ditch and build a tall wall around Cherrywood. He stations his best troops at the entrances (one or two per side of the territory). The others patrol along the wall. Teams of sappers and soldiers continually move around the wall, repairing damage.
He then increases the tariffs on all goods moving into or out of Cherrywood, particularly bulk materials. His soldiers enforce this, and it is his soldiers who receive all the profits from the tariffs. Basically, they're able to demand whatever price they want on exports, and keep it all. Further, anyone wanting to emigrate out of Cherrywood would be given a large gift--cash, land, titles, etc.

Within a year or two, Cherrywood will start to suffer shortages of materials such as metal, grain, non-native stone, etcetera. Sure, the wizard can import a lot, make gates, teleport circles, and similar transportation devices But not for free; material components and XP costs will eventually cause problems. Additionally, the travel spells are not well suited for the transport of bulk materials--say, thirty wagons' worth of grain, or several tons of ore. Cherrywood will start to run out of materials--food first; they're all forest, so they aren't raising grain crops; and with the wall there, animals will not migrate into the territory and any creature killed for food is a permanent loss. The common inhabitants will start to leave for places with better resources.
Now, the Iron Hills has not conducted any overt acts of war--the wall and ditch are on their own territory, and they're only charging tariffs, which any country has a right to do. An attack by the Wizard/Druid, or even a teleport + mind control would trigger William's alliances, and the magical odds would become more even. Additionally, even if William was Charmed, his underlings are not likely to stop collecting tariffs that line their own pockets. (greed is a powerful tool). Eventually, economic pressure would drive most of Cherrywood's inhabitants to settle in the Iron Hills, and Cherrywood would cease to be as a political entity.

This would work even better if first, bandits are allowed to spring up along Cherrywood's border, raiding across--then William could claim the wall was for everyone's protection.




One problem with the planar bindings that people are discussing: you're assuming that the Planetars and other powerful beings are perfectly willing to help the sniveling human/elven wizard defend his tiny patch of forest. Even if they like the idea, high level Outsiders likely have many more important things to do with their time, things like keeping the Upper Planes safe from Demons and Fiends, or conquering other planes, or just hanging out and communing with their deity of choice. If you summon/bind a lot, eventually one or two will break free, decide that they're kind of upset at your impertinence, and do William's work for him. Oops. And the Evil outsiders are worse--yes, they may go wreck the Iron Hills, but after that they might come back and butcher a village or two before returning to the Evil Dimensions. And if you're calling up hordes of demonic badness to lay waste to your neighbor's land, you'll be attracting the attention of some upset Good outsiders.

Winterking
2007-02-28, 09:21 PM
Or, William could not raise the huge army, but instead send messengers (peaceful ones) to all of Cherrywood's towns, saying that, if they submit to him as their overlord, he'll give them X amount of shiny, shiny gold, build them Y new buildings, and grant their children Z special tax exemptions/titles/non-monetary incentives. Some will. And then he has a right to protect those--after all, the people chose freely to have him as their leader. And once he is seen to follow through, and the submitted towns are seen to grow faster and make more money* that the 'free' areas, the latter will start to switch sides. Pretty soon, Cherrywood belongs to William, without any war or cause for the PCs to intervene. It's simple, Good, governance.


*Neither of which would be too difficult, if William dedicates a portion of the rest of the duchy's funds (say, half of the war budget), to boosting infrastructure and such.

Sardia
2007-02-28, 09:27 PM
The most crucial advantage a trained army has is tactics and formations, things that can be hard to pull off well in D&D combat. Traditional formations, like shield walls, charging lines, and phalanxes become quite hazardous around area of effect spells.

And they also don't work too terribly well in forests-- trees keep getting into the way.

Sardia
2007-02-28, 09:30 PM
Or, William could not raise the huge army, but instead send messengers (peaceful ones) to all of Cherrywood's towns, saying that, if they submit to him as their overlord, he'll give them X amount of shiny, shiny gold, build them Y new buildings, and grant their children Z special tax exemptions/titles/non-monetary incentives. Some will. And then he has a right to protect those--after all, the people chose freely to have him as their leader. And once he is seen to follow through, and the submitted towns are seen to grow faster and make more money* that the 'free' areas, the latter will start to switch sides. Pretty soon, Cherrywood belongs to William, without any war or cause for the PCs to intervene. It's simple, Good, governance.infrastructure and such.

Freely picking your own leaders wasn't a big thing in a middle-ages style society, though. Someone else deciding to forego their duties to their lords and pick a new guy was treason or rebellion, not just an exercise of democratic rights.
And the increasing growth and development in the previously rustic Cherrywood might well serve to give the Druids cause for complaint.

Jack_Simth
2007-02-28, 09:46 PM
One problem with the planar bindings that people are discussing: you're assuming that the Planetars and other powerful beings are perfectly willing to help the sniveling human/elven wizard defend his tiny patch of forest. Even if they like the idea, high level Outsiders likely have many more important things to do with their time, things like keeping the Upper Planes safe from Demons and Fiends, or conquering other planes, or just hanging out and communing with their deity of choice. If you summon/bind a lot, eventually one or two will break free, decide that they're kind of upset at your impertinence, and do William's work for him. Oops. And the Evil outsiders are worse--yes, they may go wreck the Iron Hills, but after that they might come back and butcher a village or two before returning to the Evil Dimensions. And if you're calling up hordes of demonic badness to lay waste to your neighbor's land, you'll be attracting the attention of some upset Good outsiders.

There's a reason I mentioned an average of 18 Planetars and 54 Hound Archons after day 20.

I'm assuming some of the spells don't work.

A Wiz-20 has probably arranged so that you're looking at a nat-20 clause for the Planetar not to come into the trap. Moment of Prescience deals with basically anything other than the nat-1 clause of negotiation (especially if you tack on, say, a Cloak of Charisma and a Circlet of Persuasion or some such). 95% come, of those that come, 95% are convinced. Statistically, slightly over 90% are Bound to your side for the duration. About every 20 days, *one* Planetar will break loose (and one will simply fail to show). One Quickened Dispel Magic to remove the Dimensional Anchor, and one Dismissal later, those that won't work with you are home. If that fails, well, you've got qutie a few Planetars already bound to long-term defense. Your subject is outnumbered. Have a few assisting you with Dismissal handy. The goal is to send them home, not kill them.

Depending on sources, you have a Greater Celerity and Foresight up - the "I go first" button. And they're only CR 16. Maybe keep the Druid handy in case you can't handle one by some bizzare stretch.

Plus, they're good aligned. While they might decide Wiz-20 deserves a spot on the 7th plane of the Abyss and work towards that end, they aren't going to raid the countryside.

And yeah, Evil outsiders can be a problem. Potentially - when the DM steps in with the Forces of Good to combat the Evil menace. Of course, that gets into fairly heavy DM fiat territory, which goes both ways quite handily.

Talyn
2007-02-28, 10:00 PM
I have to concur that the 20 druid and the 20 wizard could more or less take out the entire Iron Duchy army singlehandedly.

Also, an entire kingdom where the only spellcaster is a level 5 adept right next to a kingdom that has multiple PC-classed spell casters, a substantial number of them level 10 or higher? The DM obvious batched his Craft: believable campaign world check.

Black Swan
2007-02-28, 10:18 PM
I'd have to come down in favor of the Iron Duchy.

First, with as large a tax base as their duke has, he can probably afford items to protect him from a decapitation strike. For that matter, he probably has already.

Second, cutting off their supply lines won't hurt as bad as one might think.
Private 1: "Sarge, we're out of food!"
Sergeant: "We're in a forest, shoot something."
Private 2: "Hey, there's someone's home there. Let's see if they have anything to eat. Or valuables for me to toss in my ruck. Either way."
-afterwards-
Private 2: "Oh look! We can use this house to start cooking fires too."
If you don't think trying to cut the Iron Duchy's supply lines would result in 'on the spot procurement' (looting and pillaging), I have to disagree.

Third, location, location, location. Cherryvale is mostly forest, right? Those can burn, if it really comes to it.

Fourth, the Duchy army can make it pointless to defend Cherryvale by killing everyone in it. They probably have the troop strength to do it. Also relating to troop strength, if the Duchy army can trade troops at a ridiculous rate then they still win, because a war of attrition only helps them. Cherryvale's defenders can't afford any losses, and aside from the high-level casters, they really can't do more than annoying little pinpricks.

Finally, Cherryvale has no effective means of striking back.

No, really, they don't.

Okay, let's say they assassinate the head honchos up until they find one who'll make a deal. That'll cause bad blood, and they'll get to fight the same war over again soon enough. Given enough time, the defenders of Cherryvale are going to screw up once.

Let's say they try to take the Iron Duchy army outside of Cherryvale. Then they're going into hostile territory, the druids don't have their usual woodlands advantages, and they might not be in a forest so they could possibly be forced into pitched battle, which is quite possibly the worst possible outcome for the defenders of Cherryvale. If they do successfully invade, as one person proposed, how do they hold the land? They can't. One needs infantry to hold territory, and Cherryvale just doesn't have the raw numbers for the job.

The defenders of Cherryvale might hold on to their land this time, and maybe even next time, but they can't manage it in the long run.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-28, 10:28 PM
"No effective means of striking back"? How about Control Weather for a hurricane and tornadoes, coupled with a Storm of Vengeance or three, a gated in Epic monster *seeing* which makes one make a DC 40+ Will save or die, while Cherryvalue is protected by an Antipathy spell and a Screen spell?

MandoFTR
2007-02-28, 10:39 PM
The Cherry peeps have two distinct advantages:
Powerful spellcasters and spread out populace.
Can you say "Guerilla warfare with magic that can easily devastate a squad"?

MeklorIlavator
2007-02-28, 10:48 PM
The Cherry peeps have two distinct advantages:
Powerful spellcasters and spread out populace.
Can you say "Guerilla warfare with magic that can easily devastate a squad World"?
I think you had a typo there...

Black Swan
2007-02-28, 10:55 PM
@Bears: Time still isn't on their side. They can't take and hold the Iron Duchy. That's what I meant. And assuming they do all that, so what? It's not a permanent solution. They'll fight this war again, and realistically, their land will be ravaged again. They can afford that less than their foe.

So yes. They have no effective means of striking back. Not in a sense that matters at any rate.

@Mando: who cares about squads? Really. The Iron Duchy can trade companies for a handful of rangers and come out ahead in the arithmetic of war.

One thing that hasn't been taken into consideration enough is the civilian populace of Cherryvale. Will the casters continue to fight if the civilian population is crushed? The populace may be spread out, but they have to form communities of some sort. The land won't fare well either.

I'm not saying the Duke should advocate torture, looting, pillaging, etc. but you have to keep in mind that a soldier who just watched some thing, and that's what anything summoned in is going to be to him, eat his buddy's face or watched his squadmate get caught in a spell or something is going to be panicked. He's going to be angry. He's going to take it out on anyone close at hand.

The Iron Duchy can afford heavy losses. Cherryvale can't afford any losses, and they can't afford damage to their land or population.


Although truth told, I kinda wonder why Duke whatever wants to conquer these guys. Better be for some kinda artifact or something. It's probably not a straight-out economic issue.

Winterking
2007-02-28, 10:57 PM
Freely picking your own leaders wasn't a big thing in a middle-ages style society, though. Someone else deciding to forego their duties to their lords and pick a new guy was treason or rebellion, not just an exercise of democratic rights.

But then, L20 wizards, Elven generals, and uber-powerful druids were not exactly big things in a middle-ages style society. If the rules change to let magical potentates walk around, why can't someone come up with the idea of choosing to change sides nonviolently? Maybe it is treason--if so, and the Wizard or Druid restore their rule by force....congratulations, that's one village that now has no reason to support the magic-users who just killed their friends and family, and that's several fewer peasants that William needs to worry about. Not to mention the steps that the Wizard/Druid has just taken on the road to tyranny.


And for what it's worth, the idea of semi-democratic/free-choice rule was around with the Greeks and Romans, while the Vikings of Iceland elected judges to govern them. Then there's the Declaration of Arbroath, in which Scottish nobles declare their desire and their right to live free from the authority of the English kings. (quite possibly strongarmed by Robert the Bruce, but the rhetoric was there) Plus you've got citizen communes and semi-popular government in Renaissance Italian cities, and the election of Holy Roman Emperor by elector-Kings in Germany. Medieval society was not the monolithic, absolute-monarchy-all-the-time, despotic political system it is portrayed as.

MeklorIlavator
2007-02-28, 11:02 PM
The Iron Duchy can afford heavy losses. Cherryvale can't afford any losses, and they can't afford damage to their land or population.

Wizard level 20 repeatedly casting cloudkill in barracks (No save, all creatures below a certain HD die). There goes the army. Or any tactic that has been previously mentioned.

Oh, and killing a leader will halt the army till succession is decided, and if the Duke has a couple heirs, well then civil war is almost certain.

Winterking
2007-02-28, 11:02 PM
Jack_Smith:
You don't just have to worry about the Planetars that you summoned. If I, as a planetar, start to have trouble keeping the hordes of hell off my doorstep because some stupid mortal wizard has summoned several dozen of my buddies, I'm probably going to be upset, and I might well get some of my other planetar buddies, drop down to the material plane, boot el Wizardo into another place, get my pals back, and return home, to kick some fiendish posterior. And even if we don't cause any collateral damage to Cherrywood, their L20 wizard is still gone.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-28, 11:02 PM
@Bears: Time still isn't on their side. They can't take and hold the Iron Duchy. That's what I meant. And assuming they do all that, so what? It's not a permanent solution. They'll fight this war again, and realistically, their land will be ravaged again. They can afford that less than their foe.
They can kill any army that is sent against them. Regularly. Without blinking twice or leaving a tip. That sort of thing will make people think invasion might be a bad idea.
As for taking and holding the iron duchy, dominating (mmm, Disjunction, Chain Dispel, etc--what protective items?) all the important leaders should be good enough.


The Iron Duchy can afford heavy losses. Cherryvale can't afford any losses, and they can't afford damage to their land or population.

Cherryvale's fine, because with the right spells protecting it, the army can't even *find* it. No damage.

Black Swan
2007-02-28, 11:18 PM
Dominating the leaders won't be enough.
"He's acting funny. Now's my chance!" *stab* And that's only one possible scenario. God forbid anyone finds out what actually happened (the domination piece, I mean), then it's a national blood feud. It's an interesting idea, granted, but you need something more concrete.

As for killing the army, I'm not sure I agree. Troop dispersal and converging vectors of attack, while overly complex for the setting perhaps, ought to allow the Duke to do at least a fair amount of damage, and in the long term that's what really counts.

As for the spells...let's say I can't actually find Cherryvale, but I know it used to be somewhere around here. Will the spells in question protect Cherryvale from a flashfire set nearby? (No, really. Would it? I've never had an occasion to look at phantasmal terrain or whichever spell you mean.)

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-28, 11:24 PM
Uh, dominated creatures can act perfectly normally. Nobody's gonna stab someone just because they're dominated. They can act subtly, too--over the course of days act worried, and eventually "decide" to make peace. Even if there is internal strife, that'll likely stop the war if it gets bad enough.
And if the next guy decides to try things again, it's easy for the wizard to just do it again. Popping on over and dominating the duke and a general or five isn't a complex master plan--it's just something the Wizard is easily capable of doing on eight hours' notice, between breakfast and lunch.

Spells could easily protect Cherryvale from a fire; Druid, remember? Control Weather? Bam! Rain and wind strong enough to put the fire out. That same druid, with another spell slot, could make life in the capital of his enemy hell by keeping a constant hurricane going. Mmm, destructive tornadoes.

Troop dispersals are all well and good, but if they're in small enough groups the level 10s can whack'em without being in danger (especially the wizard), or just area-of-effect damage spells like Fire Storm, and if they're in large enough groups Storms of Vengeance and the like will do them in.

This is without even mentioning the morale issue. How on earth do you keep troops fighting against an enemy they can't possibly see or find, and who can turn the very earth, forest, and sky against them, and snuff out hundreds or even thousands of lives on a moment's notice? Every day, the Druid can send Earthquake and Whirlwind spells raging through enemy forces, while a hurricane is raging and spawning its own tornadoes, Elemental Swarms kill hundreds of people, and Antipathy keeps enemy troops from approaching anything he doesn't want them to, ever (cast it every other day--2 hours/level duration).
And that's without any non-core spells.

Edit: and we haven't even touched on level 20 PC wealth. Not that it matters, since the level 20s can do all of this at absolutely no cost to themselves except time.

Jacob Orlove
2007-02-28, 11:29 PM
But where do you stop? Now you need to protect your Duchy.
You stop once your borders include at least two nations or high level spellcasters. Two nations lets you work out a mutual defense agreement that lets the spellcasters go do magic stuff instead, and two high level enemy casters is enough to enforce MAD.

Scalenex
2007-02-28, 11:33 PM
A rational conquerer would make a big show of force, send an envoy and communicate a willingness to use the force. Then demand modest tribute (maybe even make the Cherryvale leader a vassal or something). The net gain of this would be better than the net gain of taking the forest.

If that doesn't work, one quick victory over a small settlement might create peace talks. Neither side has to eliminate the other. In order to win they need to just convince the other side that giving up will cost less than continuing to fight.

Now if there was a full invasion, it would be costly for everyone. Sun Tzu said that you need 20 people at home to support one fighting man on the front. This means that the army is already about 4,000 people too big, so they will have no choice but to loot immediately. This will be bad for both sides, because the Cherryvale civilians will suffer and the invading army would still have something of a dearth of supplies. At best, you'll have hungry grumbling troops, at worst you'll have desertions. Maybe the fact that Cherryvale is completely enclosed by their rival could mean that the invaders would need fewer people supplying them but I figure the low level rangers cancel that out because they excell at messing up supply lines.

LotharBot
2007-03-01, 12:58 AM
Only an idiot would opt for full-scale war in this scenario. Especially from the "army" side. It's like trying to fight a modern war without air power -- it's simply stupid. You need to use different tactics.

The "army" side would be best served via suberfuge. You don't want a costly war and a bunch of dead soldiers; you want to be able to collect taxes from all these civilians. Instead of declaring war, just send a lot of your civilians migrating into Cherryvale to "visit". Most of them are harmless -- families with kids who don't know anything about your plans -- but some are trained military. Get your own troops and your own civilians mixed in with the opposing populace. (If Cherryvale closes their borders, make a big diplomatic show of it. Try to get their own civilians mad at them for cutting them off from the outside world, and use one of the plans from above.)

Next, have your planted civilians start making a big deal out of crimes (real or imagined) that happened to them, and complain that the government of Cherryvale is doing nothing to protect their guests, your friendly citizens. So you're sending some help -- just some small squads of troops to help police. If Cherryvale's casters decide to attack, well, they're slaughtering your *innocent police force*, and your civilians within their borders are going to get very upset.

Pretty soon, you've annexed 90% of Cherryvale, and whatever they try to do to fight back, they'll have to contend with your (mostly innocent) civilians in their cities who aren't happy that you killed their leader or their friends and family or whatever. Unless they're willing to go to the "evil" end of the alignment spectrum and just start wiping out innocents, they're going to have a very difficult insurgency to deal with... or they could just opt to pay taxes/tribute.

Dervag
2007-03-01, 01:30 AM
@Bears: Time still isn't on their side. They can't take and hold the Iron Duchy. That's what I meant. And assuming they do all that, so what? It's not a permanent solution. They'll fight this war again, and realistically, their land will be ravaged again. They can afford that less than their foe.

So yes. They have no effective means of striking back. Not in a sense that matters at any rate.Yes they do. Eventually, they can very easily teach the Duchy that if you mess with Cherrywood, all you'll get is sorry and sore. Your treasures will be expended or destroyed, many of your people will be killed, and (this is the important part) for what? You can't conquer Cherrywood; all you can do is devastate it. Even that is hard, and you'll lose a lot of people. What army would march into Cherrywood to loot, knowing that half the soldiers who go under those trees never walk out again? What ruler would try to conquer Cherrywood, knowing that his capital city will be reduced to ashes by demons or elementals in the process?


@Mando: who cares about squads? Really. The Iron Duchy can trade companies for a handful of rangers and come out ahead in the arithmetic of war.No, they can't. If they start losing entire companies to kill one guy, they're going to start getting desertions. Their army is composed primarily of mercenaries and conscripts, not kamikazes.


One thing that hasn't been taken into consideration enough is the civilian populace of Cherryvale. Will the casters continue to fight if the civilian population is crushed? The populace may be spread out, but they have to form communities of some sort. The land won't fare well either.We've already heard some very good proposals for making the population of Cherrywood safe from attack. And the druid and wizard have enough power that they can probably restore the land through wishes and nature magic.


I'm not saying the Duke should advocate torture, looting, pillaging, etc. but you have to keep in mind that a soldier who just watched some thing, and that's what anything summoned in is going to be to him,What if it's a planetar? Planetars are angels. Good-aligned soldiers won't want to fight them; neutral and evil-aligned soldiers don't get paid enough to die charging an angel with a flaming sword that turns every way.


The Iron Duchy can afford heavy losses. Cherryvale can't afford any losses, and they can't afford damage to their land or population.The Iron Duchy's ability to take losses is still finite; and the senior casters can cause an almost unlimited amount of damage if they feel so inclined.


Jack_Smith:
You don't just have to worry about the Planetars that you summoned. If I, as a planetar, start to have trouble keeping the hordes of hell off my doorstep because some stupid mortal wizard has summoned several dozen of my buddies, I'm probably going to be upset, and I might well get some of my other planetar buddies, drop down to the material plane, boot el Wizardo into another place, get my pals back, and return home, to kick some fiendish posterior. And even if we don't cause any collateral damage to Cherrywood, their L20 wizard is still gone.What makes you think that the survival of the Upper Planes is noticeably threatened by the summoning of a few dozen planetars? The planes are huge. Planetars are powerful, sure. But I doubt it would cause a serious weakening of the defenses to summon the handful needed to guard Cherrywood (much smaller than the Seven Heavens) against a mortal army (much weaker than the legions of the abyss).

Sardia
2007-03-01, 01:54 AM
Instead of declaring war, just send a lot of your civilians migrating into Cherryvale to "visit".

Not a bad idea, provided this was a much more populous and modern world. A large number of people wandering in suddenly would likely not be readily accepted and integrated, particularly if there's a large druidic/ranger influence-- more people means more disruption of the wildlife, etc.

kpenguin
2007-03-01, 03:04 AM
Alright, let's say Cherryvale assassinates the Duke. If I were Cherryvale, I would first talk to whoever is next in the line of sucession and barter a deal with him/her. Cherryvale is spared the invasion and the way is clear for the new Duke/Duchess.

Winterking
2007-03-01, 04:12 AM
Basically, the scenario is stacked disproportionately to the PC side--even using NPC classes, none of the Iron Hills' soldiers nears the level of the mightiest PCs. It's clear that there's no way the Iron Hills numbers will be able to counteract the hugely destructive spells they will be facing, at least in open battle, and if (as is apparently the case) Outsiders have nothing they'd like to do more than putz about on the material plane doing something which is vaguely "Good", the numerical advantage that William enjoys starts to slip away too. And that doesn't even begin to consider the destruction that could be caused by wizards finding and dominating/killing/corrupting/charming/etc-ing Duke William, who, despite having this wealthy duchy, can't purchase a few protective/hide-me-now-please magic items.

The only options for the Iron Hills is nonconventional struggle--either sustained guerilla raiding to destroy the land of Cherrywood, or, more cleverly, some sort of subterfuge and/or economic strangulation.
Still, Cherrywood would not in any way be able to conquer the Iron Hills--they just don't have the manpower to police the population, so the Duke's lands are safe.


Actually, another good strategy for William to use would be to try and play Cherrywood's guardians off one another. If they are all perfect, shining examples of Happy Angelic Good, it won't work, but real people are flawed. Real people, especially real people with power, can be provoked (carefully...this would not be an easy gambit) or bribed or befriended. Maybe WIlliam promises to move the population out of Cherrywood, and turn the whole thing (plus another chunk of his own land) into a nature reserve for the druids/rangers. Maybe he persuades the wizard that more and better arcane and temporal power would be his if he got rid of that meddling divine caster--then the wizard could run all the experiments he wanted on the trees/animals/plants. Maybe the Elven general could be convinced to help out, in exchange for greater elven influence/authority/settlement in Cherrywood. Maybe the wizard 10 and druid 10 could be convinced to ninja their mentors--after all, the temptation of succession applies to all positions of power, and a wizard 20 is sure to have some dandy loot.

Vik
2007-03-01, 04:43 AM
What makes you think that the survival of the Upper Planes is noticeably threatened by the summoning of a few dozen planetars? The planes are huge. Planetars are powerful, sure. But I doubt it would cause a serious weakening of the defenses to summon the handful needed to guard Cherrywood (much smaller than the Seven Heavens) against a mortal army (much weaker than the legions of the abyss). I agree with that. However, while Planar Ally is fine, trying to bind creatures is dangerous, as it will get attention from upper planes if done massively (Dm's call).
Now the problem is that casting Planar Ally costs xp ; but you effectively need only very few planar allies to take care of the whole army.

dorshe1
2007-03-01, 09:56 AM
Since the duchy has some magic users the duke would be advised of the overwhelming magic power of Cherrywood so he would have to use different tactics.

High level people have to sleep, especially casters. All you need to get is find about 3 people who live in Cherrywood who would like to considerably increase their wealth (or their families wealth since there is a high liklihood they will be killed). The wizards and druids are going to have commoners who take care of them (do their laundry, serve them drinks, etc...) All you need to do is get one of them to cut the throats of the high level casters while they are sleeping, or poison their drink (fort DC 30 or die).

If you get even one of the high level casters they would be crippled, and they would have a new distrust for the people they have working for them which could hamper them otherways.

After any assassination attempt, I'd be sure that any of my people who could be scryed should talk about 'our secret agents within the borders' and start dropping names of the mid-level casters.

Barring that with a country that is completely enclosed you can start dumping poison and toxic waste into the water that goes into Cherrywood. If you are lucky you can kill of a few thousand before they even know what is happening.

Foxer
2007-03-01, 10:11 AM
Duke William, who, despite having this wealthy duchy, can't purchase a few protective/hide-me-now-please magic items.

Although I didn't specify them in the scenario I described, I see no reason why William can't have magic items, as has been suggested by other posters. He has 15 NPC levels, so should have a commensurate level of personal wealth on top of whatever he gets for running his Duchy. Off the top of my head that comes to about 50,000gp's worth of stuff, which could conceivably include magic items, rings of invisibility or anti-scrying charms. These wouldn't necessarily prevent direct attacks on his person, but would make the task harder.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-01, 12:02 PM
High level people have to sleep, especially casters. All you need to get is find about 3 people who live in Cherrywood who would like to considerably increase their wealth (or their families wealth since there is a high liklihood they will be killed). The wizards and druids are going to have commoners who take care of them (do their laundry, serve them drinks, etc...) All you need to do is get one of them to cut the throats of the high level casters while they are sleeping, or poison their drink (fort DC 30 or die).
Have you ever tried to assassinate a high level caster in game (when the DM was actually playing the caster as it should be played)?

Making yourself unkillable as a high level caster is easy.


If you get even one of the high level casters they would be crippled, and they would have a new distrust for the people they have working for them which could hamper them otherways.
Start giving ways to assassinate a level 20 wizard. He sleeps in a Magnificent Mansion every night


After any assassination attempt, I'd be sure that any of my people who could be scryed should talk about 'our secret agents within the borders' and start dropping names of the mid-level casters.
Why woudl you use scrying liek that? Cherrywood is much better served with the wizard casting Contact Other Planes. All the wizard has to do is ask 'Is XXX loyal to me?" Maybe cast it twice to be safe.


Barring that with a country that is completely enclosed you can start dumping poison and toxic waste into the water that goes into Cherrywood. If you are lucky you can kill of a few thousand before they even know what is happening.

Remember about the contact other planes and the druids commune with nature.

It is impossible for the duke to achieve either strategic or tactical surprise.

dorshe1
2007-03-01, 01:11 PM
You are right. I mean, a 20th level wizard that spends his entire day worrying about whether or not his kingdom is about to be ravaged by a larger duchy, making sure that all of the people he's upset while attaining that amount of power, making sure to keep a delicate balance with his status on other planes is surely going to spend countless spells divination spells every day to make sure every single servant they have isn't plotting to poison them.

Remember, All I have to do is get lucky once. One servant, one greedy apprentice, one villager who was hocked off because the wizard was off seeking treasure and he allowed their father to die, etc....

I'm sure that a high level person has enough hp to survive a coup de grace, but if your DM plays it right they will determine that no matter how many hit points they have a character can't breathe if their windpipe is cut. When I DM, or any of the DMs that I've had, a coup de grace is a death cut as long as the person is helpless (such as sleeping, unconsious, etc) regardless how many hit points they may have.

Divination spells are not fool proof. Answers should be cryptic at best and true statements does not mean that you can even understand them. Not to mention that you can't ask about everything, every time, and every day. there are 11,000 people in the wood. You can't ask 'is he loyal to me' for every single person twice a day. And how would an extraplanar person define loyal? What if you asked that and you got the answer 'no' does that mean he will poison you? Or does that mean that he won't loan you 50 gp to buy that lovely broach you wanted? Either would be tests of loyalty.

I think that the Duchy is in deep trouble with this particular scenario, but they aren't defenseless. Of course, if the wood people are good they'd just pay taxes and shut up about it. The only reason they can exist with no army is because the duchy does it for them.

Subotei
2007-03-01, 02:42 PM
Lets not forget the amount of Gold (albeit in the form of equipment) possessed by the average 20th level character - the wizard/druid etc could practically buy Williams army outright.

<thunk! sound of coins rolling>

"You work for us now. String him up!"

spotmarkedx
2007-03-01, 03:09 PM
I'm sure that a high level person has enough hp to survive a coup de grace, but if your DM plays it right they will determine that no matter how many hit points they have a character can't breathe if their windpipe is cut. When I DM, or any of the DMs that I've had, a coup de grace is a death cut as long as the person is helpless (such as sleeping, unconsious, etc) regardless how many hit points they may have.
You know, bringing up house rules in a debate like this is almost akin to invoking Godwin's Law. It is almost inevitable in any debate, and the one who brings it up pretty much automatically loses the dabate. Debating house rules is inefficient at best, and more likely impossible. Besides, you can pull things out of nowhere whenever you want. "My DM allows high-level characters to have a 6th sense to danger, since they obviously have lived so long, so they notice the commoner assassin before he tries his murder attempt". *shakes head*

Jacob Orlove
2007-03-01, 03:56 PM
Um, 20th level casters can bring people back from the dead, no problem. It'll cost them a fraction of their personal wealth, and possibly their original race (but not a level, assuming they have access to non-core spells), but they can fix that. So, even if you succeed in killing them (which you will not do, if they take any precautions whatsoever), all you've done is made them mad, at which point they scry and teleport.

Jack_Simth
2007-03-01, 04:52 PM
Jack_Smith:
You don't just have to worry about the Planetars that you summoned. If I, as a planetar, start to have trouble keeping the hordes of hell off my doorstep because some stupid mortal wizard has summoned several dozen of my buddies, I'm probably going to be upset, and I might well get some of my other planetar buddies, drop down to the material plane, boot el Wizardo into another place, get my pals back, and return home, to kick some fiendish posterior. And even if we don't cause any collateral damage to Cherrywood, their L20 wizard is still gone.

The Twin Planes of Bytopia are defined as Infinite, and use the Heavenly Encounters table. The Heavenly Encounters table has an entry for Planetars. Bytopia thus has a Planetar density above 0. As the plane is infinite, this also means there are an infinite number of Planetars. The individual Planetars might be annoyed, but 18 aren't exactly expected to turn the tide of the eternal war.

Meanwhile, Mr. L20 Wizard isn't hurting them, is potentially paying them something for their time (possibly with spellcasting services; an L20 Wizard can't be all that common), has the Knoweledge(The Planes) check to know what they want, has the Charisma check to be extremely persuasive when they follow his Call (by way of Moment of Prescience, mostly), and is having them do something not out of line with their alignment (defending a peaceful nation).

To top it off, if one of them does get annoyed afterwards and come for justice, he still doesn't kill them. He Dismisses them. Just like he does with anyone who he doesn't reach an agreement with right away.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-01, 05:13 PM
You are right. I mean, a 20th level wizard that spends his entire day worrying about whether or not his kingdom is about to be ravaged by a larger duchy, making sure that all of the people he's upset while attaining that amount of power, making sure to keep a delicate balance with his status on other planes is surely going to spend countless spells divination spells every day to make sure every single servant they have isn't plotting to poison them.
Assassinating an awake, high level wizard who has spells is about as likely as you winning the lottery tomorrow. It just doesn't happen.

And with 1 7th level spell you are safe while you sleep. Magnificent Mansion keeps you completely safe.


Remember, All I have to do is get lucky once. One servant, one greedy apprentice, one villager who was hocked off because the wizard was off seeking treasure and he allowed their father to die, etc....
Remember, the chance those people succeed is smaller then you winning the lottery tomorrow.


I'm sure that a high level person has enough hp to survive a coup de grace, but if your DM plays it right they will determine that no matter how many hit points they have a character can't breathe if their windpipe is cut. When I DM, or any of the DMs that I've had, a coup de grace is a death cut as long as the person is helpless (such as sleeping, unconsious, etc) regardless how many hit points they may have.
Houserule and how exactly would you get the level 20 caster helpless?


Divination spells are not fool proof. Answers should be cryptic at best and true statements does not mean that you can even understand them. Not to mention that you can't ask about everything, every time, and every day. there are 11,000 people in the wood. You can't ask 'is he loyal to me' for every single person twice a day. And how would an extraplanar person define loyal? What if you asked that and you got the answer 'no' does that mean he will poison you? Or does that mean that he won't loan you 50 gp to buy that lovely broach you wanted? Either would be tests of loyalty.
*Sigh*

The 4 steps to preventing assassination:
Step 1: Every Monday cast contact other planes twice and ask the following question Will anyone or anything attempt to assassinate me within the next year?. Since you do this step every week you will know the date of the assassination to within 2 weeks (at most)

Step 2: Use Contact other planes to find out the exact day that the assassination will happen. This takes 5-7 castings of CoP (1 for each day of the week).

Step 3: Use CoP a bit more to narrow it down to a 3-4 hour range for the assassination attempt.

Step 4: Now that you are aware of the assassination plan and know roughly what time it will occur at you can catch the assassin easily.




I think that the Duchy is in deep trouble with this particular scenario, but they aren't defenseless. Of course, if the wood people are good they'd just pay taxes and shut up about it. The only reason they can exist with no army is because the duchy does it for them.
The Duchy as a land isn't defenseless and would be a pain in the ass for Cherrywood to conquer and rule but it is lacking in any offensive power.

Now the Duke is defenseless. Both the wizard and druid go and shapechange into dragons and go and lay waste to the Duke if he every threatens Cherrywood. They then tell teh Dueks replacement that he will leave Cherrywood alone if he wants to survive very long.

Arbitrarity
2007-03-01, 09:39 PM
At L20, with a grey elf, with fully buffed stuff (or MoP, to save the time), you can never fail an ability check for intermediate deity's with CoP.

73% chance of sucess. Do it each week, and you got yourself odds that are in the 99.999999999999999999999999997% odds of sucess. (Calc.exe :D)

Winterking
2007-03-01, 11:53 PM
Emperor Tippy:
A couple of problems with your foolproof method of avoiding assassinations:
1) you are asking about assassination attempts. It is not at all unbelievable to think that a mystical Outsider, with an Outsider's outlook and mindset, would interpret your request differently than you intend it. Asking "will anyone attempt to assassinate me in the next year" is not the same as asking "will anyone assassinate me in the next year". A successful assassination is, by definition, not an attempt (it succeeded, after all), and you might not get any warning of such occurrence. You'd learn about all the attempts, and because you learned of them, be able to keep them merely as attempts. But you'd miss the one that ended up killing you, because he didn't try to do so, but succeeded.
2)You assume that Destiny is fixed--that even if I decide on the spur of the moment today to attack you, without any forethought, that you would have been able to predict it a year ago. I don't think the RAW says anything about this, but a fixed Destiny basically invalidates the possibility of free will/individual choice. If, on the other hand, there is free will, it's entirely possible that your query which reveals "yes, you will have an attempt made on your life within the year" isn't referring to someone who is planning an attack one year from now, but rather to Al, the grumpy, magic-hating farmer who just today decided that he wants to kill you when you visit his town tomorrow.

Jacob Orlove
2007-03-02, 12:34 AM
I don't know why the wizard would even bother with sketchy Contact Other Plane questions (which are basically an appeal to DM fiat), when he could just set up adequate protections and rely on those.

By level 20, it's not hard to get Foresight running for all his waking hours if he really wants to be paranoid. Greater Rod of Extend is only 24,500 gp, and makes two castings last over 13 hours--he can spend the rest of his time in the MMM, or burn a third 9th level slot. Even if you ignore the warnings of imminent danger feature, never being flatfooted or surprised means you can take immediate actions at any time. Celerity is the most cheesy, but there are plenty of other options that can buy you enough time to not get killed (especially against random peasants).

Even without Foresight, he can set up basic stuff like Empowered/Maximized False Life, (Greater) Mage Armor, assorted miss chance effects, and just generally get to the point where level 5 guys can't do anything meaningful to him.

Gralamin
2007-03-02, 12:56 AM
I'm just gonna point this out:
The Druid 20 can become an air elemental and summon some, and start tearing through the army due to Damage Reduction.

Yes they could be eventually taken down, and the country more then likely will fall, but the number of causalities will be huge. I'll do some math to figure out how huge in a second

The druid could tear through the army, as a greater air elemental, 20 hours a day. Each round they may make one attack as a slam. this will do an average of 14 damage - enough to kill most enemies. Its DR 10 means that even on a natural 20, very little damage is taken (Scythe does a maximum of 32, for 22 damage, not including variable strengths. there is a ([1/4]^8 = 1/65536 of a [1/20]^2 = 1/400 chance of this, or a 1/26214400. That means for every 2.5 million scythe attacks, he takes 22 damage. Average amount is 10 damage.)
Assuming he fights all day he makes
(1 attack / 1 round) * (10 rounds / 1 minute) * (60 minutes/ 1 hour) * (20 hours/1 wildshape) = 12000 attacks / wildshape, with most damage negligible due to DR. Within the course of a few days, with proper healing he can take down the army himself.

Be aware he can always back up and cast healing spells on himself, whenever he get below say, 100 hp.

kpenguin
2007-03-02, 01:32 AM
Er... with DR 10/-, a huge elemental would decimate William's army. Why? Because there would be no way for them to do more than 10 dmg to the elemental. Assuming nonelite array, the most the average soldier could do is 8damgage. Remember, no crits on an elemental. If the druid were to elemental swarm William's army, William would have a choice between retreat or route. Same goes for an Iron Golems the wizard would build. Without any crits on a construct, the Golem would tear through any group of soldiers it wants.

If I were Cherryvale, I would start building up defenders.

The Wizard should start constructing an Iron Golem. This should take around 4-5 months, depending on how well the Craft checks are. He should then start animating objects with permanancy. His apprentice should help his master on the golem and then do the same. The Druid should start using Wild Empathy and awakening animals . The week before the invasion, the Druid should use liveoak to make a bunch of treants. If the druid fills up his spellslots with liveoak from lvl 6 and up, he should have about 20 treants each day. If he does this every day of the week on the week up until the invasion, the druid will have 140 treant defenders that will last from 13-20days. The apprentices should start using Wild Empathy to make animal friends.

After the initial clash, which I believe will end in success for Cherryvale, the leaders of Cherryvale should offer Iron Hills surrender, threatening to march and raze the capital city if they don't. If Iron Hills should not surrender, Cherryvale should make good on that promise.

Gralamin
2007-03-02, 01:57 AM
Er... with DR 10/-, a huge elemental would decimate William's army. Why? Because there would be no way for them to do more than 10 dmg to the elemental. Assuming nonelite array, the most the average soldier could do is 8damgage. Remember, no crits on an elemental. If the druid were to elemental swarm William's army, William would have a choice between retreat or route. Same goes for an Iron Golems the wizard would build. Without any crits on a construct, the Golem would tear through any group of soldiers it wants.

If I were Cherryvale, I would start building up defenders.

The Wizard should start constructing an Iron Golem. This should take around 4-5 months, depending on how well the Craft checks are. He should then start animating objects with permanancy. His apprentice should help his master on the golem and then do the same. The Druid should start using Wild Empathy and awakening animals . The week before the invasion, the Druid should use liveoak to make a bunch of treants. If the druid fills up his spellslots with liveoak from lvl 6 and up, he should have about 20 treants each day. If he does this every day of the week on the week up until the invasion, the druid will have 140 treant defenders that will last from 13-20days. The apprentices should start using Wild Empathy to make animal friends.

After the initial clash, which I believe will end in success for Cherryvale, the leaders of Cherryvale should offer Iron Hills surrender, threatening to march and raze the capital city if they don't. If Iron Hills should not surrender, Cherryvale should make good on that promise.

I forgot about no crits, but the maximum damage is 12, for 2 damage to the elemental, using greataxes or greatswords.

edit: also, Animate Objects is not on the Wizard's list.

kpenguin
2007-03-02, 02:10 AM
It's on the spell list and the conditions make no mention of what spells are on the Wiz's book. As for greatswords/axes, the soldiers are equipped with shields, so I assume they don't have two-handed weapons. If limited only to one-handed/light melee weapons, then we have 1d8+str score dmg. With nonelite array, that str dmg is +1. So max, 9 dmg.

Vance_Nevada
2007-03-02, 02:41 AM
Here's a very weak argument on the Duchy's part:

William threatens the Druid - kill the Wizard and place Cherrywood under my rule, with you helping me, or I'll get rid of every bit of nature in Cherrywood (burning forests, polluting rivers, etc).

The Druid either kills the Wizard and surrenders, or he refuses to, thus violating the 'must protect nature' clause of the Druid's oaths, and loses all his abilities. Now he's just a big melee fighter with good BAB, poor weapon proficiencies, and some solid hit points. Half the problem is solved.

Of course, the Druid could immediately talk to the Wizard and proceed to just kill off William, but this plan requires an idiot DM who rules that doing so proves the Druid isn't protecting nature and thus falls.

dorshe1
2007-03-02, 02:43 AM
Oh, and if you ask 'will anyone assassinate me this year' and the outsider says 'yes' all you can do, according to you since they are infallable, is make your last will and testament.

kamikasei
2007-03-02, 11:35 AM
If, on the other hand, there is free will, it's entirely possible that your query which reveals "yes, you will have an attempt made on your life within the year" isn't referring to someone who is planning an attack one year from now, but rather to Al, the grumpy, magic-hating farmer who just today decided that he wants to kill you when you visit his town tomorrow.

If you cast CoP last week and were told there was no danger in the next year, and you cast it this week and are told there is, then the danger is in the period covered by the second and not the first - that is, the single week one year away.

Of course, this only works if you have one negative response to start with. If you make your first CoP casting and are told "yes, someone will try to assassinate you in the next year", you have a *lot* more work to do to pin that down.

Foxer
2007-03-02, 12:11 PM
If you cast CoP last week and were told there was no danger in the next year, and you cast it this week and are told there is, then the danger is in the period covered by the second and not the first - that is, the single week one year away.

Of course, this only works if you have one negative response to start with. If you make your first CoP casting and are told "yes, someone will try to assassinate you in the next year", you have a *lot* more work to do to pin that down.

That would only be true if destiny is fixed. If you cast CoP and asked whether anyone is planning to assassinate you in the next year, the answer would be "no", because nobody currently has any reason to want to do such a thing. If you hack off ten people over the next week, they might well decide to off you as soon as possible, so when you cast your next weekly CoP you get told that, yes, you are in danger of assassination over the course of the next year. That doesn't mean that you're safe for the remaining 51 weeks covered by the first CoP. Both spells gave an accurate result at the time of casting, but utterly contradictory results nevertheless.

spotmarkedx
2007-03-02, 12:35 PM
So you word it "Is anyone planning an attempt to assassinate me within the next year..." first, and if yes, you start narrowing down from there. If nobody has a plan in place, then you're golden. If your answer changes from "no" to "yes" some week, you know pretty well when they started the plot, and as it is in beginning stages, you should have plenty of time to ferret out both the person performing the act, as well as the person planning it.

And unless someone makes a plan to assasinate you, and implements it in under a week, you've got pretty good forewarning.

kamikasei
2007-03-02, 01:06 PM
That would only be true if destiny is fixed. If you cast CoP and asked whether anyone is planning to assassinate you in the next year, the answer would be "no", because nobody currently has any reason to want to do such a thing. If you hack off ten people over the next week, they might well decide to off you as soon as possible, so when you cast your next weekly CoP you get told that, yes, you are in danger of assassination over the course of the next year. That doesn't mean that you're safe for the remaining 51 weeks covered by the first CoP. Both spells gave an accurate result at the time of casting, but utterly results nevertheless.

The question asked is not does anyone currently plan to assassinate me within the next year, but:


Will anyone or anything attempt to assassinate me within the next year?If a CoP can't accurately predict the future then, sure, using it to predict the future is obviously worthless. But if I can ask will anyone try to assassinate me and be told no, and someone then try to assassinate me because they decided to the day after I asked the question, the spell is broken for this purpose without bringing "destiny" into it. The spell simply shouldn't be able to predict the future at all, then.

edit: I note however that the spell description says nothing about predicting the future in the first place. I wouldn't allow Tippy's use of it.

Foxer
2007-03-02, 01:36 PM
edit: I note however that the spell description says nothing about predicting the future in the first place. I wouldn't allow Tippy's use of it.

Fair enough, then. I would, personally, but with the understanding that destiny isn't fixed, and the gods/extra-planar beings don't know all the answers. That would stop players abusing it.

LotharBot
2007-03-02, 02:40 PM
Question for several posters who've given Cherryvale tactics:

Why do you assume Iron Hills is going to invade via conventional means? Just because they have a big conventional army doesn't mean they'll run soldiers at you in big, easy-to-destroy-by-polymorphing-into-a-dragon groups.

Question for the OP:

What alignment are the casters? In particular, would they have an issue with doing things like killing thousands of soldiers or thousands of civilians over what, according to the original scenario, amounts to MONEY? If the duke doesn't threaten the forests or the people, just threatens to collect taxes, as a DM I'd give a serious alignment shift (to evil) for some of the tactics given. If they're already evil, hey, no big deal, but if the wizard is good and the druid is true neutral, "wipe out the army" probably isn't a viable tactic.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-02, 02:42 PM
Lothar: because without magic, there's only so much they can do, and certain things they can *never* do.

Foxer
2007-03-02, 05:28 PM
What alignment are the casters? In particular, would they have an issue with doing things like killing thousands of soldiers or thousands of civilians over what, according to the original scenario, amounts to MONEY? If the duke doesn't threaten the forests or the people, just threatens to collect taxes, as a DM I'd give a serious alignment shift (to evil) for some of the tactics given. If they're already evil, hey, no big deal, but if the wizard is good and the druid is true neutral, "wipe out the army" probably isn't a viable tactic.


To be honest, I really hadn't considered alignments. They seemed an added complication to what I was trying to keep a simple scenario. In so far as I'd thought about it at all, I had everybody as baseline neutral - self-interested and a little selfish, but not out-and-out evil.

I see now that the scenario was flawed in that William's vast weight of numbers really doesn't stack up against against near-epic caster levels. I'd write things differently if I did it again.

LotharBot
2007-03-02, 07:26 PM
Lothar: because without magic, there's only so much they can do, and certain things they can *never* do.

Which means the only thing they *will* do is run headlong into open battle and certain defeat?

I think people are playing the Iron Hills side in an overly stupid manner, making them use their superior numbers in such a way as to fall right into the hands of what near-epic casters are best suited to deal with. We have some real-world examples of how to be effective in military situations where you have inferior air support, intel, etc. and I'd think Iron Hills could come up with some of the same strategies.

If you're going to play the "what if" game, at least play both sides as well as you can. Look at what both sides have and think about how they could neutralize the other side's advantages, instead of just looking at one side's advantage and declaring you are teh win.


I had everybody as baseline neutralHow evil are they willing to be? Are they willing to, say, kill off thousands of soldiers they know don't intend to do anything but collect (illegal) taxes? Are they willing to kill large numbers of civilians with small numbers of soldiers intermixed? If Iron Hills uses an "invasion via demographics" how ruthless would the casters be in response?

And how evil are the Iron Hills soldiers willing to be? Are they willing to raze villages, or the whole forest, if they're met with nonviolent resistance? What percentage of them would be willing to kill children as part of a terror campaign?

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-02, 07:43 PM
If you're going to play the "what if" game, at least play both sides as well as you can. Look at what both sides have and think about how they could neutralize the other side's advantages, instead of just looking at one side's advantage and declaring you are teh win.

What advantages? Their numbers mean nothing(can't find the place). So list any advantages that you find.



How evil are they willing to be? Are they willing to, say, kill off thousands of soldiers they know don't intend to do anything but collect (illegal) taxes? Are they willing to kill large numbers of civilians with small numbers of soldiers intermixed? If Iron Hills uses an "invasion via demographics" how ruthless would the casters be in response?

And how evil are the Iron Hills soldiers willing to be? Are they willing to raze villages, or the whole forest, if they're met with nonviolent resistance? What percentage of them would be willing to kill children as part of a terror campaign?
well, people in the real world do it all the time. Its this thing called WAR. The other side is usually full of good people, yet soldiers still go to war.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-02, 08:04 PM
Which means the only thing they *will* do is run headlong into open battle and certain defeat?
No. But, at some point, there'll be a large number of men gaterhed together, right?


I think people are playing the Iron Hills side in an overly stupid manner, making them use their superior numbers in such a way as to fall right into the hands of what near-epic casters are best suited to deal with. We have some real-world examples of how to be effective in military situations where you have inferior air support, intel, etc. and I'd think Iron Hills could come up with some of the same strategies.
Those strategies just don't work. Cherryvale becomes completely unfindable (Screen) and unapproachable (Antipathy), and there's no way for the army to hurt a smart Wizard or Druid 20.


If you're going to play the "what if" game, at least play both sides as well as you can. Look at what both sides have and think about how they could neutralize the other side's advantages, instead of just looking at one side's advantage and declaring you are teh win.
The army CAN'T neutralize the casters' advantage. That'd take magic.


And how evil are the Iron Hills soldiers willing to be? Are they willing to raze villages, or the whole forest, if they're met with nonviolent resistance? What percentage of them would be willing to kill children as part of a terror campaign?
They can't raze villages or the whole forest, though.

Sardia
2007-03-02, 08:41 PM
What alignment are the casters? In particular, would they have an issue with doing things like killing thousands of soldiers or thousands of civilians over what, according to the original scenario, amounts to MONEY? If the duke doesn't threaten the forests or the people, just threatens to collect taxes, as a DM I'd give a serious alignment shift (to evil) for some of the tactics given. If they're already evil, hey, no big deal, but if the wizard is good and the druid is true neutral, "wipe out the army" probably isn't a viable tactic.

The Duke's threatening to invade to collect taxes, which shifts it a bit. Cherrywood is essentially defending itself from a large body of armed robbers.
Would killing the enforcement goons who work for an organized crime racket be evil? Particularly when you're killing them as they're preparing to go on a knee-breaking venture?

LotharBot
2007-03-03, 02:35 PM
What advantages? Their numbers mean nothing

Yes they do. Just not in open warfare against high-level casters. So if you're Iron Hills, the intelligent thing to do is not declare war at all -- just attempt to absorb Cherryvale through demographics (ie, fill their borders with your citizens.)


LotharBot asked: "are they willing to kill... lots of civilians, soldiers whose leader hasn't declared war, etc.?"

well, people in the real world do it all the time. Its this thing called WAR. The other side is usually full of good people, yet soldiers still go to war.Of course people go to war. And if Iron Hills' soldiers come rampaging and killing, I have no doubt the high-level casters would be willing to kill them in droves. But what if they don't come rampaging and killing? What if they come in a scenario like I posted above -- in groups with their wives and children, as "peaceful immigrants"?


at some point, there'll be a large number of men gaterhed together, right?

Why would there be?


Cherryvale becomes completely unfindable (Screen) and unapproachable (Antipathy), and there's no way for the army to hurt a smart Wizard or Druid 20.1) Cherryvale doesn't become unfindable/unapproachable until the casters decide they don't want it to be findable or approachable. The Duke can neutralize this simply by not doing anything overt enough to make Cherryvale's casters take such a drastic step. (EDIT: the original scenario did specify that he'd levied a large army, but IMO that's a mistake on his part... and, in any case, he can decide to "disband" it and "not invade" and then wait for the defensive spells to wear out and engage in what I describe below. "Disbanding" the army make those guys lose their skills.)

2) Neither Screen nor Antipathy last longer than a couple days or cover more than a few hundred feet radius. Metamagic can increase both of those by a little, but neither say they can be made permanent.

3) Why would the army even attempt to hurt the wizard or druid? The Duke wants to collect taxes, and he can set himself up to do so without ever declaring war or having any soldiers attack anything.


The army CAN'T neutralize the casters' advantage. That'd take magic.I didn't say "overpower", I said "neutralize". You need magic to overpower magic. But you can neutralize an advantage like magic simply by creating a scenario where it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how much death and destruction high-level casters could cause to a low-level army if they never fight. It doesn't matter how many guys you can kill with an area-effect spell if you're never going to use them because the guys you want to kill are mixed in with women and children from both sides.

That's what the Iron Hills side needs to consider -- can they manage to do something such that Cherryvale can't really directly fight them without doing something utterly abominable to them? Can they, essentially, make Cherryvale's high-level casters decide that it's better for their populace to submit to taxes than to fight? It might be possible or it might not -- but so far, nobody has even considered it.


The Duke's threatening to invade to collect taxes

Why would he need to threaten to invade? Why not use this plan:

1) send civilians as innocent immigrants with a few scattered provocateurs in their numbers. (Would Cherryvale turn them away? Would they use force to do so?) Have the provocateurs stage crimes against your people and generate fake crime reports.

2) send small "police forces" (made up of people from your "disbanded" army) to protect your civilians because Cherryvale's authorities "aren't doing a very good job", and make a very public deal out of this. Only let a small percentage of your "police" in on your actual plan. (Would Cherryvale kill your police forces?)

3) Levy taxes in order to cover the expense of maintaining your police force. By this point, the populations should be so intermixed that Cherryvale would have a hard time evicting all of your people.

4) If Cherryvale fights you, publicly denounce their aggression. Have your skilled provocateurs stir up sentiment against their "vile government" in their own towns. If it comes to all-out war, a small percentage of your people know to start burning villages and forests. Cherryvale's government may decide it's easier to pay the taxes than to risk it. (They may, of course, also send assassins, and make a deal with Iron Hills' next leader to repeal the taxes or face the same fate...)

OK, so maybe it's not a perfect plan. Maybe you've got a counter to it. And maybe there's a counter to your counter, and so on. But let's at least use this as a starting point, instead of continuing to assume Iron Hills will do something stupid like "run the soldiers straight ahead, lose 5000 of them in the first 10 minutes, and be unable to even find Cherryvale with the survivors."

Jacob Orlove
2007-03-03, 02:49 PM
Okay, that's great, except a Wizard 20 has spells like Greater Scrying, Detect Thoughts, Discern Location, and Charm Person. They should have no problem finding the initial provocateurs, and uncovering the entire plan, at which point they can start whatever countermeasures they like (such as teleporting all the Duke's "police force" back to the Duchy).

Edit: this really would be a lot more interesting if the spellcasters were more numerous and lower in level. Maybe something like one 5th level guy/town, and some 6th-10th level ones as you move up to the top of the hierarchy.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-03, 02:53 PM
If your country is completely surrounded by another country, doesn't it make sense for you to spy on the bigger country? The casters probably are constantly scrying on the Duke, so they would have plenty of warning before the duke does anything.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-03, 03:03 PM
The casters prolly keep the Duke perpetually dominated, along with various other government officials. Dominate Person is a 5th level spell and lasts 20 days at CL 20. No one in the Dutchy will make the DC 30+ save with any reliability and once they fail once you can order then to fail all future saves. So once dominated they stay dominated forever.

Here is how the scenario would actually work:
Druid: Hey Mr. Wizard, isn't it time to go dominate all the dukes people for the month?
Wizard: Again? I'll be back in about an hour (mental command for all the dominated people to go to their rooms or to a central location)
*teleport**dominate person**teleport Home*
Wizard: There done. Is dinner ready?

Jacob Orlove
2007-03-03, 05:11 PM
The Sense Motive check to notice a Dominate is only DC 15--the Wizard *could* do that, but they'd catch on pretty quickly. It's quite possible that you'd see complete anarchy in the Duchy at that point, as people stop obeying any kind of leadership. That's incidentally pretty bad for Cherrywood, especially since there's much less the casters can do to fight random bandits and settlers who are all acting independently.

martyboy74
2007-03-03, 05:47 PM
Also, pointing out that the topic of this is that there will be war, and whether the PC classes make the normal amries irrelevant. Don't try and get around fighting by absorbing them; it's against the point of the topic.

Jack_Simth
2007-03-03, 06:46 PM
The casters prolly keep the Duke perpetually dominated, along with various other government officials. Dominate Person is a 5th level spell and lasts 20 days at CL 20. No one in the Dutchy will make the DC 30+ save with any reliability and once they fail once you can order then to fail all future saves. So once dominated they stay dominated forever.

Here is how the scenario would actually work:
Druid: Hey Mr. Wizard, isn't it time to go dominate all the dukes people for the month?
Wizard: Again? I'll be back in about an hour (mental command for all the dominated people to go to their rooms or to a central location)
*teleport**dominate person**teleport Home*
Wizard: There done. Is dinner ready?

If I'm DMing, an order to deliberately fail your save against a spell from the person dominating you falls under the "Obviously self-destructive" clause (at least, in most cases).

goat
2007-03-03, 07:35 PM
Polymorph abuse.

You DO have a high level wizard and cleric after all.

A few soldiers in the midst of groups PaO'd into rust monsters will give a great example of how well they can fight without weapons and armour.

Flesh to stone, symbol of X, Swarms.

Oh GOD, the potential swarm abuse.

Zangor
2007-03-04, 01:01 AM
Why would he need to threaten to invade? Why not use this plan:

1) send civilians as innocent immigrants with a few scattered provocateurs in their numbers. (Would Cherryvale turn them away? Would they use force to do so?) Have the provocateurs stage crimes against your people and generate fake crime reports.

2) send small "police forces" (made up of people from your "disbanded" army) to protect your civilians because Cherryvale's authorities "aren't doing a very good job", and make a very public deal out of this. Only let a small percentage of your "police" in on your actual plan. (Would Cherryvale kill your police forces?)

3) Levy taxes in order to cover the expense of maintaining your police force. By this point, the populations should be so intermixed that Cherryvale would have a hard time evicting all of your people.

4) If Cherryvale fights you, publicly denounce their aggression. Have your skilled provocateurs stir up sentiment against their "vile government" in their own towns. If it comes to all-out war, a small percentage of your people know to start burning villages and forests. Cherryvale's government may decide it's easier to pay the taxes than to risk it. (They may, of course, also send assassins, and make a deal with Iron Hills' next leader to repeal the taxes or face the same fate...)


Easy for Cherryvale to counteract, though.

Cherryvale:You have no jurisdiction here. Sending your soldiers, for any reason, to our territory without permission is an act of war. We will gladly pay for any settlers who wish to move out of these lands, if they truly feel that it is unsafe here.

Most likely, few people will actually want to leave, since the crime never touches them. (Since it doesn't actually exist; it's just the complaining of the spies.)

Additionally, the wizard could easily contact neighboring states and convince them to join his side. He'd easily stress how peaceful Cherryvale is, and how belligerent Iron Hills has been. (Most rulers like peaceful neighbors, remember.)

Even if Iron Hills uses the "spread out" tactic, all the wizard has to do is scry on the place where the whole army is mustered, equipped, and trained, before the orders are given. As soon as the actual order for war is given, he and the druid teleport in and wipe out the army single-handedly. They then, along with some of the rangers, march on Iron Hills' capital, capture the Duke, and put a geas on him as follows:
He shall never engage in war against, nor threaten the sovereignty of, the nation of Cherryvale. Furthermore, he shall pledge his full might to protect the sovereignty of said state. He shall also pass it into law that Cherryvale has the right to send a delegate to the coronation ceremony of any new leader, as symbol of the newly declared alliance that they shall inform him they are now a part of.
At any coronations, the geas is then recast on the new duke.

Gralamin
2007-03-04, 01:37 AM
It's on the spell list and the conditions make no mention of what spells are on the Wiz's book. As for greatswords/axes, the soldiers are equipped with shields, so I assume they don't have two-handed weapons. If limited only to one-handed/light melee weapons, then we have 1d8+str score dmg. With nonelite array, that str dmg is +1. So max, 9 dmg.
Umm no its not:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateObjects.htm

I did forgot about the shields, however they may have exotic weapon proficiency (Bastard Sword) which does 1d10+str = 11 max damage in your example.

LotharBot
2007-03-05, 03:18 AM
the topic of this is that there will be war, and whether the PC classes make the normal amries irrelevant. Don't try and get around fighting by absorbing them; it's against the point of the topic.

Wars can be won and lost in very unconventional ways. Since we all know Iron Hills stands exactly zero chance of winning in any conventional way, I figure we should look at unconventional scenarios. Is there any way they can win?


The casters probably are constantly scrying on the Duke

It was assumed the Duke has a fair bit of magical equipment. I imagine he'd have at least one nondetection / non-scrying item.


The casters prolly keep the Duke perpetually dominated, along with various other government officials....

Certainly a possibility, though based on post #1 I think it's fair to say this isn't the policy Cherryvale has pursued thus far. And if you make a habit of dominating foreign leaders who haven't yet made any hostile moves against you in a campaign I'm DM'ing, your alignment shifts to evil, I take your character sheets away, and you become a plot hook for the next group of good adventurers.


Cherryvale:You have no jurisdiction here. Sending your soldiers, for any reason, to our territory without permission is an act of war. We will gladly pay for any settlers who wish to move out of these lands, if they truly feel that it is unsafe here.

Iron Hills can make the argument that "you're trying to drive our people away!" "How dare you force our people out?" and such.

And what happens if the people don't say they want to leave? Does Cherryvale start killing them? Do they just kill the police forces coming in? If they do, remember, some of the settlers already in Cherryvale are evil-aligned criminal types, so it's likely there will be a serious crime wave (lots of random murders) if Cherryvale responds in a hostile manner. And, of course, needless slaughter is an evil act.

Essentially, Iron Hills has set up a scenario where Cherryvale's best move is not to use force.


the wizard could easily contact neighboring states and convince them to join his sideThis just leaves more room for Iron Hills' propaganda. "You're stirring up sentiment against us! You've contacted our enemies asking them to fight us! How dare you?" The people of Iron Hills, especially those innocents already within Cherryvale's borders, get upset. Is Cherryvale willing to start killing them or forcibly relocating them?

Iron Hills should NEVER muster an army against Cherryvale. Orders should filter down to small groups of trained soldiers/police that "you've been ordered to police [name of village] because Cherryvale's government is abusing our people." Again, the vast majority of these soldiers are innocent; is Cherryvale really going to slaughter them?


capture the Duke, and put a geas on him as follows:
He shall never engage in war against, nor threaten the sovereignty of, the nation of Cherryvale.See, now this is smart. I concede, I have no response for this.

Interesting to see that it comes down to this: Iron Hills has no reason to fight an open war with Cherryvale because they'd lose; their best bet is excessive use of innocents as shields... and Cherryvale has no reason to fight an open war with Iron Hills because there's no reason to kill thousands of soldiers; their best bet is to target Iron Hills' leadership directly.

-----

OK, so here's a new question: what level would you have to drop Cherryvale's casters to in order to make this an even fight? Would Iron Hills be able to invade (via either conventional or nonconventional means) if Cherryvale's casters were level 16? 14? 12? How far down do you have to go to make it so that either side could win if they're slightly more clever than the other side?