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lonewolf23k
2007-02-28, 09:43 PM
Just wondering if anyone has worked on optional rules for crippling and dismembering opponents in combat..

I was thinking of maybe combining the Sunder rules with the DMG's rules for "damage to specific areas" (in DMG p27) for it, provoking an attack of opportunity if trying to strike an opponent's limbs. The result would cause a -2 penalty to certain actions connected to that bodypart.

A critical hit with this system would actually remove the targeted limb, causing a -4 or -6 penalty (undecided as of yet).

Thomar_of_Uointer
2007-02-28, 09:57 PM
A rule I might use, if the players and I agreed on it, would be to cause a serious injury on a successful critical hit. The type of damage would determine the exact nature of the injury (slashing dismembers, piercing causes nerve damage, and bludgeoning breaks bones), and the body part affected would be based on a d6 roll, for right arm, right leg, left leg, left arm, head, or torso. Rather than have head be an insta-kill, it would either blind (slashing and piercing) or deafen (bludgeoning). Torso would be more interesting, probably forcing the character to act as disabled at all times.

Clementx
2007-02-28, 09:59 PM
Sundering a Limb- AC = Creature's AC. HP = Creature's HP. Translation = kill the creature. Lopping off limbs is rarely a good idea, because Regeneration is an annoying spell to acquire when goblins are tearing off your appendages on natural 20s at lvl2.

On the less snarky side, I allow players to dismember, blind, deafen, or otherwise maim (1d6 ability damage) on Coup de Graces, instead of killing (same save). Being helpless and undefended is a really bad situation fitting of gross disfigurement, unlike having a low AC.

magic8BALL
2007-02-28, 10:48 PM
Hows this? Its a bit long winded, but is fairly simple.

Attack a limb:
Make an attack, but declair that you are aiming at a particular arm or leg.
Any damage dealt to that limb counts as damage to the characters total HP, in addition to going towards disableing that limb.
Limb AC = 10 + Dex + Size modifier (as 2 sizes smaller) + 1/2 armor + natural armor + dodge +deflection + 2 x insight ( + 2 x shield if it is the shield arm)
Deal damage as normal. (except note that it is to that particular limb)
Each limb has HP equal to the limb bareres HP divided by 8.
If the limb is reduced to 0, it is disabled, and cannot be used. (it has been lopped off, all the bones broken, nerves all severed, completely chared (as per a ranged touch spell) or the likes)

Head shot:
Make an attack, but declair that you are aiming at the head.
Damage to the head is counted towards the characters total HP.
Head AC = 10 + Dex + Size modifier (as 3 sizes smaller) + natural armor + dodge + deflection + insight + shield + 1 (small helmet) or 2 (full helm)
If a helmet is part of a magical suit of armor, add the armors enhancemernt to the protection provided by the helmet.
Ignore the natural armor and helmets for a touch attack.
A hit deals x2 damage.
A crit deals +1 to the multiplier. (x4 on a x3 weapon for instance)
If you take more than 1/2 your current hit points to the head, treat as massive damage.

Peregrine
2007-02-28, 10:49 PM
Your idea basically comes down to called shots, which have been done many times in ways that mostly don't really work for one reason or another. One of those reasons is true strike -- most systems up the AC for things like head shots, which might offer a near-instakill if you hit. True strike or other strong to-hit boosters pretty much negate the AC penalty and make one-hit kills much more attainable. Too attainable.

One system I do like is Mongoose Publishing's called shot idea (I think it was in Quintessential Fighter). Basically, all normal hits just do normal HP damage; critical hits actually hit well enough to do the sort of crippling you're talking about. Critical hits default to striking the torso, which just deals more HP damage than normal (i.e. a normal crit in every way), but when you threaten one, you can call it as threatening to injure something else. You then make your confirm role at a penalty, and if you hit, you apply an effect. Each target also carries a BAB minimum to be able to strike at effectively.

It's OGC, so I can post the numbers if you want.

magic8BALL
2007-02-28, 11:51 PM
Yes but true strike to me represents the ability to hit what you want to hit. True Stirke allows you to strike true. I dont see this as a problem. If a wizard cast it on one round, and then aims three scorching rays at you the next, he should hit you where he wants, and you should cop it to the face and die becouse he has spend two rounds to deliver one attack. (in the meantime if you have cut off his arm he can no longer cast scorching ray, and is a sitting duck).

Remember that true strike is a Sor/Wiz1 spell with a personal target. It's not that unbalancing despite the +20 to attack.

Peregrine
2007-03-01, 12:45 AM
Yes, yes, we know that if a wizard wants to kill you, you die. :smalltongue: Called shot rules just have a bad tendency to make this even easier, by giving some sort of ability to make fatal (or crippled-and-you-die-soon-anyway) injuries at a penalty to hit. Penalties to hit just do not balance out such an ability, because those penalties are too readily overcome. They also make things much deadlier for PCs.

A true strike-boosted attack should not make it easy to deal significantly more powerful damage or effects than you could do in two rounds anyway.

I like the rules I described because they don't actually make it easier to kill an opponent. The fastest way to kill something is usually still to just whack it with a normal crit. A called shot is useful to hamper it, slow it down, or make it easier to whack next time around. In other words, to beat it without killing it.

Portent
2007-03-01, 06:01 AM
Black Company Campaign Setting has an awesome chart for just this sort of thing. Essentially, any time a character suffers a critical hit or goes over their massive damage threshold, and the character fails their save against this "grievous wound" (as BCCS calls them), a percentile die is rolled, which describes what happens (thematically, based on bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage), and gives example effects.

For example, the 84-88 line is a pretty bad blow to one's arm. A bludgeoning wound would break the arm, a piercing wound is a "punctured arm," and a slashing would leads to the loss of d4 fingers. The mechanical result is one heck of a penalty to Climb, Craft, and some other skills.

For those who have BCCS, the chart is on page 130.

The book doesn't talk about actually making called shots to certain locations to specifically generate these effects; the grievous wounds come from critical hits and massive damage, and represent more "attacks that just so happened to be particularly well landed" than someone who can consistently crank out these types of wounds. Now, you can try to make these attacks land more often (pumping up your damage output, taking feats like Improved Critical, etc.) but otherwise, the book doesn't address a specific called shot system.

I recommend taking the chart from BCCS and spinning up some system to actually make the attack rolls. Maybe make a small percentile chart or a damage based chart (higher damage roll = more crippling effect) for each body part.

For example, the "Head" chart, again using examples from the BCCS chart, might have inside of it the potential to damage Jaw, Face, Nose, Ear, Eye. The "Torso" chart might have things like Broken ribs, punctured chest wound, evisceration.

However, now that I think of this, it's already sounding pretty complicated. Personally, I'd just look at the BCCS chart, come up with an attack roll penalty one would willingly take to generate the example effects, and run with it; maybe an amount equal to the lowest number on the percentile die divided by 10, rounded down. So, for example, if I wanted to inflict a wound on the 84-88 line, I'd willingly take a -8 penalty to my attack, or something. Definitely needs to be hammered out more, since the chart doesn't go up by 10's, but I hope this gives you some ideas.

edit: Hey, I found the Open Game License in the back of the book. Does this mean it's legal for me to scan the Grievous Injury chart and post it here? I don't want to go around breaking any rules or anything, and I really want to show off just how cool BCCS can be, heh. Best RPG book I ever got.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-01, 08:43 AM
Well, we use critical fumbles, and our barbarian had been nearly killed by a troll's rend attack shortly before a crit fumble. Rather than actually hitting himself, like normal, his arm fell off from a wild swing.

alchemy.freak
2007-03-01, 12:21 PM
i think it the rules vary vastly for different situations. usually i have two kinds of combat, Cinematic, where actions outside the rules take place, one on one combats are ideal as they can seem a little slow, cinematic combat quickens the pace and i purposely fudge rolls for more or less damage (depending on what happens) as well as apply other damage like crippling, just to keep things interesting.

but then there is standard combat, usually with the entire party against a few monsters. here things like crippling would unnecessarily complicate things if just anyone could do it, in this case i would not allow it as it could really slow down combat.

Orzel
2007-03-01, 12:31 PM
I'd make it a modified trip attempt but with the attacker's Str vs the defender's Con. -4 to the Str check for crippling, -8 to dismember.

Arms and Legs only. Head shots are normal shots.

And there's also the NWN called shot. :(

Annarrkkii
2007-03-01, 12:35 PM
I think the option to hit body parts is really hard to balance. I love the idea of critical hits or massive damage causing permanent injury—I'd like to see this chart somehow, someday—and it's how I've always imagined it working.

However, if "called shots" are just hard to balance. If you give them high AC, that's easy to overcome. There's no real point if they have high hp, but if they have low hp it becomes to easy to slowly incapacitate dangerous foes.

I think that non-career-ending permanent injury is a great plan for critical hits/massive damage, and maybe even say that "if they receive a heal spell (perhaps even just a cure) within x rounds, the permanent damage is reduced, as if the d% die had been rolled y% less, if they get the effect within z minutes, then they treat the roll as if it had been y/2% less, and if its within w hours, its treated as y/4% less."

That should be complicated enough.

Szatany
2007-03-01, 12:46 PM
Just wondering if anyone has worked on optional rules for crippling and dismembering opponents in combat..

I was thinking of maybe combining the Sunder rules with the DMG's rules for "damage to specific areas" (in DMG p27) for it, provoking an attack of opportunity if trying to strike an opponent's limbs. The result would cause a -2 penalty to certain actions connected to that bodypart.

A critical hit with this system would actually remove the targeted limb, causing a -4 or -6 penalty (undecided as of yet).
I did some feats that allow stuff like that. They are based on a mechnics that doesn't matter here, but you can read what they do just fine. Some examples:

Crippling Strike [Murder]
Prerequisites: Calculated Kill or Sneak Attack class feature, Hide or Move Silently 13 ranks.
Benefit: An opponent that takes extra damage from your calculated kill or sneak attack also suffers 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability.

Gouge [Murder]
Prerequisites: Calculated Kill or Sneak Attack class feature, Hide or Move Silently 15 ranks.
Benefit: You can attempt to remove eyes of a foe. Make a melee attack with a piercing or slashing weapon as a full-round action with a -4 penalty to hit. If you deal at least one point of damage, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + half your character level + your Dex modifier + 1 for every 5 murder feats you have) or lose eyes and become blind as a result. Creatures immune to sneak attack or critical hits are immune to this ability. Lost eyes can be restored by spells that regrow lost body parts, such as regenerate, or by polymorphing.

Mutilate [Murder]
Prerequisites: Calculated Kill or Sneak Attack class feature, Slice, Hide or Move Silently 12 ranks.
Benefit: An opponent that takes extra damage from your calculated kill or sneak attack also suffers -5 penalty to one of his speed types. Types of speed based on supernatural, spell, or spell-like abilities can not be affected. Speed penalties from multiple attacks are cumulative. Creature with its speed reduced to zero falls prone, but can still usually crawl.

Peel Skin [Murder]
Prerequisites: Calculated Kill or Sneak Attack class feature, Slice, Hide or Move Silently 15 ranks.
Benefit: An opponent that takes extra damage from your calculated kill or sneak attack also has its Damage Reduction lowered by 1 point, and extra 1 for every 4 murder feats you have. If the target has more than one type of DR, all types are affected. Peeling effects from multiple attacks are cumulative.
Effects that remove Constitution damage also remove lowered DR at the same ratio.

Rupture [Murder]
Prerequisites: Calculated Kill or Sneak Attack class feature, Hide or Move Silently 12 ranks.
Benefit: An opponent that takes extra damage from your calculated kill or sneak attack also begins to bleed for 1 point of damage, and extra 1 point for every 3 murder feats you have, per round. Bleeding effects from multiple attacks are cumulative. Bleeding stops as soon as the character is healed at least 1 point of damage.

Slice [Murder]
Prerequisites: Calculated Kill or Sneak Attack class feature, Hide or Move Silently 9 ranks.
Benefit: An opponent that takes extra damage from your calculated kill or sneak attack also suffers a -2 penalty on all Foritude saves.
If you have 5 murder feats, you also cause same penalty on Relfex saves.
Penalty to saves goes away at the rate of 1 point per day for each save. Save penalties from multiple attacks are cumulative. Effects that remove Dexterity damage also remove Reflex penalty at the same ratio. Effects that remove Constitution damage also remove Fortitude penalty at the same ratio.

Behead [Epic, Murder]
Prerequisites: Dex 23, Cold Blood, remorseless.
Benefit: Whenever you gain benefits of remorseless, every slashing weapon you wield is treated as if it had vorpal enchantment.
If you have 3 epic murder feats, creatures with regeneration you behead cannot regenerate lost heads.

Dismember [Unarmed]
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +16, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple.
Benefit: While grappling an opponent whose Constitution or Strength (whichever he has more of) is lower by at least 6 points than you Strength, you can break one of his arms, hands, or legs as an attack action. The victim must make Fortitude save (DC 10 + half your character level + your Str modifier + 1 for every 5 unarmed feats you have) to ignore the penalty. See Dungeon Master Guide, page 27 for the effects of damaged body parts.
If you have 9 unarmed feats, and your Strength is 12 points higher while pinning your opponent, you can instead tear the member off. This multiplies penalties by 10, adds +10 to the Fortitude DC, deals 2d6 points of Constitution damage, and causes bleeding for 5 hit points per round until magical healing is administered.

Matthew
2007-03-01, 07:08 PM
These sort of wounds seem like they should only be inflicted when Characters reach 0 Hit Points, take Massive Damage or suffer a Coup de Grace.

Evil Pilotfish
2007-03-01, 10:45 PM
Black Company Campaign Setting has an awesome chart for just this sort of thing. Essentially, any time a character suffers a critical hit or goes over their massive damage threshold, and the character fails their save against this "grievous wound" (as BCCS calls them), a percentile die is rolled, which describes what happens (thematically, based on bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage), and gives example effects.


I would suggest using the Disabling Critical Hits option from Green Ronin's Advanced Gamemaster's Guide instead, it is done by the same company that did Black Company but it is balanced more for the standard D&D game than the more lethal combat system of the Black Company Campaign Setting.