Feats that scale by level: "Evolving Feats" [Feats.. obviously]

[Yuki Akuma]

I've heard many people (well.. Fax) cry out for feats that scale with level, instead of feat chains. So, I have devised a little system to allow certain feats to gain more power as you do; I call them "evolving feats".

Each feat has a "growth number". This number specifies how many Base Attack Bonus points (for Warrior feats) or caster levels (for Caster feats) you must gain after choosing the feat for the feat to improve.

It is possible to spend XP in order to make the feats improve faster; the cost is equal to 100 times the "growth number", times your character level. This decreases the feat's 'growth number' by 1; you may do this multiple times. Once the 'growth number' becomes low enough for the feat to improve, you gain the improvement and the 'growth number' resets to its original value. In order to do this, you must spend one day times the feat's 'growth number' training, spending eight hours each day doing nothing but training the feat.

Some growth abilities will have "growth levels". The feat must have been improved at least as many times as the growth level in order to gain that growth ability.

Characters who gain bonus feats may spend these bonus feats in order to improve one of their evolving feats for free. Some classes may only allow a character to improve a specific feat, or one from a short list.


Conjuration Focus [Evolving Caster]
Benefit: The save DCs for all conjuration spells you cast is increased by 1.
Growth Number: 3
Growth: Increase save DCs by a further 1. This stacks with all previous bonuses.
Alternatively, you may choose from the follow special abilities:
Augment Summoning (growth level 1): Any creature you summon using a Conjuration (summoning) spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to both its Strength and Constitution scores.
Augment Healing: (growth level 1): When casting a Conjuration (healing) spell your caster level is improved by 1, and you heal 1 extra point of damage per spell level. This growth abilty can be taken up to a maximum of 5 times; its effects stack.
Skilled Traveller (growth level 2): You may take an extra willing creature of up to Medium size with you when you cast a transportation spell of the Conjuration school, or an extra 50 lb of inanimate, unattended objects. If the spell does not normally allow you to bring passengers, this growth ability only functions on inanimate, unattended objects.
Planar Diplomat (growth level 3): You gain a +4 competence bonus on all Charisma-based checks when dealing with creatures called by your Conjuration (calling) spells.
Expert Traveller (growth level 4): When casting any Conjuration spell that transports you to another location (such as Teleport spells), if there is a chance of missing your target, you may roll twice and take the better of the two rolls. Additionally, any damage taken from teleporting into a solid object is halved for you, but not any creatures you take with you.

Evocation Focus [Evolving Caster]
Benefit: The save DCs for all evocation spells you cast is increased by 1.
Growth Number: 3
Growth: Increase save DCs by a further 1. This stacks with all previous bonuses.
Alternatively, you may choose from the follow special abilities:
Energy Substitution (growth level 2): choose either acid, cold, electricity or fire. You may prepare or cast (if you are a spontaneous spellcaster) any spell dealing energy damage as a spell of that type. This growth ability may be taken multiple times; each time, a different energy type must be chosen.
Energy Admixture (growth level 3): you may prepare or cast (if you are a spontaneous spellcaster) any spell that deals one of the four energy damages listed as two energy types. The damage dealt by the spell is half the original type and half the new type chosen. You cannot prepare a spell with half of an energy type you do not have Energy Substitution for, unless the spell was originally of that type.
Sonic Substitution (growth level 4): you may prepare or cast (if you are a spontaneous caster) any acid, cold, electricity or fire-damaging spell as a sonic spell. The die size is decreased by 1 step (d8 becomes d6, d6 becomes d4, d4 becomes d3, and so on).

Toughness [Evolving Warrior]
Prerequisite: Con 13
Benefit: You gain 3 hit points.
Growth Number: 2
Growth: Gain a further 2 hit points.

Two-Weapon Fighting [Evolving Warrior]
Prerequisite: Dex 15
Benefit: The penalty for fighting with two weapons is reduced by 2 for your on-hand, and by 6 for your off-hand.
Growth Number: 4
Growth: Choose either of the following abilities.
Defense: You gain a +1 shield bonus to AC when wielding two weapons. If you take this ability more than once, these bonuses stack.
Speed: You gain an additional off-hand attack. You may not make more off-hand attacks in a round than you make on-hand attacks.

Weapon Focus [Evolving Warrior]
Benefit: Choose one weapon you are proficient with. When attacking with the chosen weapon, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls.
Growth Number: 2
Growth: You gain an additional +1 bonus to attack rolls, and a +1 bonus to damage rolls. These effects stack with each other.

(This isn't all I have planned, but my lunch break just ended. If you have any comments, criticisms, threats, suggestions or insults, feel free to post them.)

[Jalil]

If I'm reading this correctly, then a 20'th level fighter who took this Weapon Focus at lvl 1 should have a +10 to hit from this one feat, correct? Seems powerful, but not brokenly so. I'm no home brewer, so you'll need to get other replies for balance, but I enjoy the flavor.

[magic8BALL]

Its not the fighter Im worried about... Its now the barabarian.

Weapon focus at level 1.

By level 20, +10 to attack, +9 to damage. Now the greataxe (with monkey grip, of cause) is a very deadly weapon: +28 (plus strength and magic) to attack and 3d6+9 (plus 1 1/2 strength and magic). Ouch.

[Yuki Akuma]

At least he's only using Monkey Grip, instead of a good feat.

Monkey Grip is, by the way, one of the feats I was planning on changing.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

First:
Monkey grip does not exist.

I really, really like this idea- it excited me when I first heard Fax mention it...but I do have some questions regarding it.

If I understand correctly, then if you're willing to be patient, these feats essentially improve passively; after six caster levels, for instance, the Conjuration focus I took allows me the benefits of augment summoning and augment healing, without my having to take the feat again/choose an additional feat. This is great for me, of course.

However, in my view, the primary cost of a feat is the opportunity cost of not taking other feats- the choices you didn't make. 'Evolving feats' keep the prerequisite cost of the Feat the same, but drastically decrease its opportunity cost, which will result in more powerful characters, perhaps unacceptably so.

Again, if I understand correctly.
Please tell me why/if I'm wrong, because I'd love to use this.

Also, minor thing: do growth levels reset? Or is it just that you have to improved it that many times since you got it?

[Yuki Akuma]

Firstly: I agree. Monkey Grip is a myth.

You're right there; that's precisely how it works. Well, as long as you decide you want both augment summoning and augment healing instead of the additional +2 to DCs.

Yes, this makes characters more powerful. It does, however, give fighters a much-needed boost; as long as I can come up with enough evolving feats to fill out their bonus feat list, at least.

The last one.. I'm not sure what you mean.

[elliott20]

I would think that a better idea would be instead of coming up with new feats, you would just rewrite the old feats into an evolving version.

[Yuki Akuma]

Because that's not exactly what I'm already doing or anything.

[elliott20]

umm... yes... exactly...

I'll just... go over there now and be quiet.

*goes sits in the corner*

[Fax Celestis]

That's basically what he's doing.

Dodge
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to armor class
Growth Factor: 3
You gain an additional +1 dodge bonus to armor class.
Optionally, you may gain any of the following abilities:
Combat Mobility: (Growth Factor 2) You receive a +2 dodge bonus to armor class to avoid attacks of opportunity while moving.


Anyway: not how I would have done it, but this is actually probably better.

[Yuki Akuma]

..Aww. :smallredface:

How would you have done it?

Also: "Growth Factor" is a better term than "Growth Number".

[Kalessin]

Nice system, but much more feats should be given the scaling ability. And maybe even do it with flaws, so that theyr penaltys lessen.

[The Great Skenardo]

Two-Weapon Fighting is prime ground for this sort of thing.

[Fax Celestis]

..Aww. :smallredface:

How would you have done it?

Also: "Growth Factor" is a better term than "Growth Number".

Probably just "take the feat, this is how it scales."

Either that, or a point-investiture system akin to Incarnum.

[Szatany]

Each feat has a "growth number". This number specifies how many Base Attack Bonus points (for Warrior feats) or caster levels (for Caster feats) you must gain after choosing the feat for the feat to improve.


And monks are shafted, again. What about classes that get neither good BAB or caster level? Monks and rogues have those feats grow much slower.
Wouldn't it be better if feats were categorized into combat feats, magic feats, skill feats, etc. and have them improve depending on how many of those you have? That makes them equally powerful for all characters (more for fighters since they have bonus feats obviously).

Toughness, TWF and Weapon Focus, for example, could look like this:

Toughness [Vitality]
Benefit: You gain +3 hit points for every vitality feat you have.

Two-Weapon Fighting [Agility, Weaponry]
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced by 1 for every agility and/or weaponry feat you have (in any combination) until they reach 0.

Weapon Focus [Weaponry]
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Choose one weapon for every weaponry feat you have. You gain a +1 bonus on all attack and damage rolls you make using the selected weapon(s).


Probably just "take the feat, this is how it scales."
Either that, or a point-investiture system akin to Incarnum.
THis is also a cool idea. Give all classes some number of feat points (fighters get most). They can spend those points to permanently improve feats they have. Obviously, each feat has to state what happens when you invest points in it.

[Fax Celestis]

And monks are shafted, again. What about classes that get neither good BAB or caster level? Monks and rogues have those feats grow much slower.
Wouldn't it be better if feats were categorized into combat feats, magic feats, skill feats, etc. and have them improve depending on how many of those you have? That makes them equally powerful for all characters (more for fighters since they have bonus feats obviously).

Toughness, TWF and Weapon Focus, for example, could look like this:

Toughness [Vitality]
Benefit: You gain +3 hit points for every vitality feat you have.

Two-Weapon Fighting [Agility, Weaponry]
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced by 1 for every agility and/or weaponry feat you have (in any combination) until they reach 0.

Weapon Focus [Weaponry]
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Choose one weapon for every weaponry feat you have. You gain a +1 bonus on all attack and damage rolls you make using the selected weapon(s).

Here's how you fix the monk in that situation: A class abilty that reads: "A monk treats his BAB as equal to his class level for the purposes of evolving feats."

For Rogues and skill feats, perhaps basing it off of skill points earned?

[Yuki Akuma]

I was thinking about skill feats, actually. If it was based off of skill points earned, obviously they would have to have very high Growth Factors.

I was also going to do this to psionic and incarnum feats, once I think I've done enough with the general feats.

[Fade]

Or you could change it to levels by class...

i.e. If you take a feat that has a Growth Factor of 3 as a rogue, then gain 3 levels of Rogue, the feat scales. If, however, you take a PrC or multiclass after your second level of rogue, then the feat doesn't scale until you take a 3rd level of rogue.

For Dodge, though, I think you should add the option of adding your dodge bonus to more targets, instead of only keeping it at one and increasing the AC bonus. Also, to add in Mobility somewhat breaks the system, allowing the player to both take Mobility as a normal feat, and get the benefit from Dodge.

For Weapon Focus, I think you should remove the bonus to damage, primarily since there are feats that add to weapon damage already: Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization. Not only, in adding the damage to Weapon Focus, is a first level feat with minimal prerequisites better than a feat with more prerequisites, but you allow for a class-specific feat to be taken, in essence, by another class. Also, to help scale more for feat dependant classes (e.g. Fighters) You could favor them somewhat, by changing the growth factor to 3 for any class other than a Fighter, but leave it at 2 for specifically Fighters.

So with a few changes:

Dodge [General]
Benefit: During your action, you designate an opponent and recieve a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks from that opponent.
Growth Factor: 3
Growth: You gain an additional +1 dodge bonus when you designate an opponent. Alternatively, you can choose one of the following abilities:
Split Focus: You can designate more than one opponent and recieve a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks from all opponents you designate.

Weapon Focus [General]
Benefit: Choose a weapon you are proficient with. You gain +1 to attacks using that weapon.
Growth Factor: 2
Growth: You gain an additional +1 to attacks using your selected weapon.

Weapon Specialization [General]
Benefit: Choose a weapon that you have Weapon Focus with. You gain a +2 to damage rolls using that weapon.
Growth Factor: 3
Growth: You gain an extra +1 to damage rolls using your selected weapon.

Point Blank Shot [General]
Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls against targets within 30 ft.
Growth Factor: 3
Growth: You get an additional +1 on either attack or damage rolls against targets within 30 ft.
Alternatively, you can extend the range of Point Blank Shot by 5 ft.

[Yuki Akuma]

The whole point of this system was to remove feat chains. Weapon Specialisation and its ilk have been rolled into Weapon Focus.

[Nahal]

It wouldn't need to be all that high if they're tied to RELEVANT skill points earned (e.g. ranks in hide and/or move silently boost the Stealthy feat)

[Fade]

Sorry, misread. The one disadvantage of this system, then, is to reduce overall feat options... Either that or remove prerequisites for higher level feats, or drastically reduce the size of feat trees. Take, for example, the dodge tree. Spring attack is essentially cut out of the entire bargain, becoming impossible to really obtain. Although, personally, I don't think that's too much of a problem, the issue still remains that what's happening is the players are losing character options. Avoiding that would either require the addition of prerequisite growth (which would be atrocious, and essentially a more complicated way of having feat trees) or simply reducing the feat trees by adding in growths. Take for example, Dodge. The dodge growth would still exist, +1 to AC, but remove the mobility growth (+2 against AoOs) and keep Mobility, putting Spring Attack in as a growth for Mobility. Also, you could add in little addendums to the feats where if the feat grows past a certain amount, i.e. you gain +4 by advancing Dodge twice, then the next growth becomes essentially Spring Attack.
I think it is a good idea to try and remove feat chains, but cutting down player options because the system gets simplified greatly... I'm not sure that's the best idea.

[Yuki Akuma]

I haven't finished. I'm going to completely overhaul most feats, eventually. And I need to tweak most of the classes, too. Really, I'm looking for ideas to expand, or critique of the general idea..

Evolving feats would be nice, too.

[Fax Celestis]

Ooh, Evolving Metamagic!

[Gralamin]

Some Possible ones:
Battle Caster [Evolving Caster]
Benefit: You get a +4 bonus on Concentration checks made to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability while on the defensive or while you are grappling or pinned.
Growth Factor: 3
Growth: receive an additional +2 to your concentration checks.
Alternatively, you may choose from the follow special abilities:
Armored Caster (growth level 2): You can cast in Light Armor without Arcane Spell Failure.
Extra Slot (growth level 3): As the feat in complete Arcane
Battle-Ready Caster (growth level 4): You may Cast in medium armor without Arcane Spell Failure, you must of taken armored caster.
Battle-Scared Caster (growth level 5): You may cast in Heavy armor without Arcane Spell Failure, you must of taken Battle-ready Caster.

Invocation Master [Evolving Caster]
Benefit: Learn an additional invocation of one grade less then highest grade.
Growth Factor: 3
Growth: You gain an additional invocation of one grade less then highest grade.
Alternatively, you may choose from the follow special abilities:
Arcane Mastery [growth level 2]: You may take 10 on caster level checks.
Eldritch Blast Focus [growth level 3]: Your Eldritch blast gains an additional +1d6 damage.
Extra Invocation limit [growth level 4]: You may gain invocations of your highest grade. You gain an invocation.

[Legoman]

If feat-chains have been rolled into evolving feats, then why be a fighter beyond level 2 (And possibly 1?) What ends up happening is that the fighter can take his first two bonus feats, sink them into evolving feats, and then multiclass to something useful while he sits on top of his passive bonuses.

I would much rather have seen something like this: (Simplified, of course.)

Weapon Focus: [Fighter]
Your attack rolls and damage rolls with the selected weapon gain a +1 bonus.

Weapon Specialization: [Fighter]
Your damage rolls with the selected weapon gain a +2 bonus. In addition, the bonus granted to you from Weapon Focus increases to +2.

Weapon Supremacy: [Fighter]
Whenever you threaten a critical with a the selected weapon, you gain a +4 bonus to confirm that critical. In addition, the weapon's threat range is increased by one.

Your bonus from Weapon Focus increases to +3.
Your bonus from Weapon Specialization increases to +4.

Weapon Devastation: [Fighter]
Whenever you confirm a critical with the selected weapon, your victim must make a Fortitude save, DC Damage Dealt, or instantly be slain.

Your bonus from Weapon Focus increases to +4.
Your bonus from Weapon Specialization increases to +6.
Your bonus from Weapon Supremacy increases to +8.

See what I mean? Your feats scale as you take more feats in the tree! This rewards fighters for having extra bonus feats! Without something like this, there's no reason why a character can't take a bunch of baseline feats across the board, and then wait to level up dramatically.

Note that this is more focused on the fighters, but there's no reason that casters couldn't get something like this as well.

[Fax Celestis]

If feat-chains have been rolled into evolving feats, then why be a fighter beyond level 2 (And possibly 1?) What ends up happening is that the fighter can take his first two bonus feats, sink them into evolving feats, and then multiclass to something useful while he sits on top of his passive bonuses.

I would much rather have seen something like this: (Simplified, of course.)

Weapon Focus: [Fighter]
Your attack rolls and damage rolls with the selected weapon gain a +1 bonus.

Weapon Specialization: [Fighter]
Your damage rolls with the selected weapon gain a +2 bonus. In addition, the bonus granted to you from Weapon Focus increases to +2.

Weapon Supremacy: [Fighter]
Whenever you threaten a critical with a the selected weapon, you gain a +4 bonus to confirm that critical. In addition, the weapon's threat range is increased by one.

Your bonus from Weapon Focus increases to +3.
Your bonus from Weapon Specialization increases to +4.

Weapon Devastation: [Fighter]
Whenever you confirm a critical with the selected weapon, your victim must make a Fortitude save, DC Damage Dealt, or instantly be slain.

Your bonus from Weapon Focus increases to +4.
Your bonus from Weapon Specialization increases to +6.
Your bonus from Weapon Supremacy increases to +8.

See what I mean? Your feats scale as you take more feats in the tree! This rewards fighters for having extra bonus feats! Without something like this, there's no reason why a character can't take a bunch of baseline feats across the board, and then wait to level up dramatically.

Note that this is more focused on the fighters, but there's no reason that casters couldn't get something like this as well.

The point here, though, is to eliminate trees. A deforestation of feats, if you will.

But perhaps adding a Fighter level prereq for the growth of particular feats might be appropriate.

[Legoman]

What, exactly, is the problem with feat trees? The alternative is a sea of low-powered feats that get higher-powered with level, so that you can eventually take everything you want, and have the power level fall into place later.

I'm just afraid you'll end up with cookie-cutters.

EDIT: I can undestand the concern with something like Two-Weapon-Fighting, it's a massive feat investment for not enough return. But, I'd suggest better benefits to the tree, instead of giving someone the option of taking two feats at first level and having perfect TWF and Weapon Focus +10 as a result. Could get really nasty, really fast, and doesn't give the fighter anywhere to drop his feats.

[Fax Celestis]

What, exactly, is the problem with feat trees? The alternative is a sea of low-powered feats that get higher-powered with level, so that you can eventually take everything you want, and get it all when you want to.

I'm just afraid you'll end up with cookie-cutters.

There's no problem with feat trees themselves, it's just that the majority of them don't have to be (or shouldn't be) trees (like TWF). Other feats don't have trees and are nearly worthless at higher levels (like Stealthy). By making feats scale with level, you remove that problem.

[Legoman]

Right, TWF... what about something like this:

Two Weapon Fighting:
The penalties for your off-hand weapon is reduced to -4, and your main-hand, -2, when Two-weapon fighting. The off-hand penalty can be further reduced by using a light weapon, bringing it down to -2/-2.

Improved Two Weapon Fighting:
You may gain an off-hand attack on your first iterative attack.
In addition, the penalties for fighting two-handed are reduced to -1/-1.
In addition, you gain a +1 shield bonus when fighting with two weapons.

Greater Two Weapon Fighting:
You gain an off-hand attack on your first and second iterative attacks.
In addition, the penalties for fighting two-handed are eliminated: (-0/-0)
In addition, your shield bonus from ITWF increases to +2.
In addition, you gain a rend attack: Whenever your main-hand and off-hand attacks hit, you deal an additional 2d6 damage.

Good? Bad? Ugly?

Skill-boosting feats, sure, I can understand that... It's just the feats that are already in tree-form that I'm inclined to think are in tree-form for a reason.

[Fax Celestis]

See, you can be a good one-handed or two-handed fighter with one feat: Power Attack.

But in order to be a good TWFer, you need three, four, or even five feats.

Making Two-Weapon Fighting into one feat that grew with the character would make it a viable option and would make TWF a viable, non-feat consuming option for non-ranger, non-fighter characters.

[Yuki Akuma]

The problem with the game as it is is that certain fighting style require a single feat, or maybe just two, while others require every single feat your character gets and forces you into one niche.

As it is, all fighters are Power Attacking two-handed-weapon wielders. Giving them more viable options will not make them cookie-cutter fighters. Quite the opposite.

Oh, and, to reiterate something I've said quite a few times: there will be more feats. I'm not done yet. There will be more than five feats. Stop complaining about there being five feats.

[Fax Celestis]

Oh, and, to reiterate something I've said quite a few times: there will be more feats. I'm not done yet. There will be more than five feats. Stop complaining about there being five feats.

You know, we may want to hold off on publicizing these until they're complete. Work on them on a second location, like via email or on my wiki, and then publicize them when done, so that people won't bitch in the meantime.

[Yuki Akuma]

You know, we may want to hold off on publicizing these until they're complete. Work on them on a second location, like via email or on my wiki, and then publicize them when done, so that people won't bitch in the meantime.

Bah, logic...

[Krellen]

One small point: part of the reason TWF takes more feats than Power Attack is because two-weapon fighting is more powerful. Those feats effectively double your attacks at the point you can take them, while Power Attack does not double your damage output at any point.

This, obviously, is something that needs to be kept in consideration when designing evolving feats to replace both Two-Weapon Fighting and Power Attack.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

You know, we may want to hold off on publicizing these until they're complete. Work on them on a second location, like via email or on my wiki, and then publicize them when done, so that people won't bitch in the meantime.
I'm really excited about these, so I hope I can still get a good look at the work-in-progress on that wiki of yours- if it's done in time for my upcomin' campaign (and knowing my usual rate of progress, it will be) I'd love to use it.

I've already been playing around with reworking magic (not rebalancing necessarily, but reworking) and a bit of reworking for Fighters wouldn't go amiss.

[Yuki Akuma]

One small point: part of the reason TWF takes more feats than Power Attack is because two-weapon fighting is more powerful. Those feats effectively double your attacks at the point you can take them, while Power Attack does not double your damage output at any point.

It never ceases to amaze me that people actually think this. I bet you think the monk's flurry of blows is a good ability, too, right?

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

It never ceases to amaze me that people actually think this. I bet you think the monk's flurry of blows is a good ability, too, right?
Say it with me now, folks.
Are all iterative attacks...equally accurate?
No, they aren't!
Is it remotely useful to have a massive round of possible attacks, if only one or two of them hit?
Noooot particularly.

Sic semper twoweaponfightius; it's not overpowered. It is the opposite of that.

I just have to back up anyone who's debunking that.

[Fax Celestis]

This is why the Thri-Kreen MWF Monk (whose attack pattern looks like +15/+10/+5/+13/+8/+3/+13/+8/+3/+13/+8/+3/+10/+15) isn't really all that bad.

[elliott20]

It never ceases to amaze me that people actually think this. I bet you think the monk's flurry of blows is a good ability, too, right?
if I recall, I've seen no less than half a dozen occasions where people have proven TWF to be inferior to THF through statistical data.

[Yuki Akuma]

if I recall, I've seen no less than half a dozen occasions where people have proven otherwise statistically.

But people do the same with Monkey Grip, and everyone still seems to think it's a good feat.

Speaking of...

Monkey Grip [Evolving Warrior]
Prerequisite: Strength 13
Benefit: You may wield weapons one size category larger than you are with the same amount of effort they were designed to be wielded with. You still take the normal -2 penalty to attack rolls for fighting with an improperly sized weapon. This does not apply to your off-hand.
Growth Factor: 3
Growth: Choose from one of the following abilities.
Oversized Weapon Focus: The penalty for fighting with a weapon sized innapropriately for you is lessened by 1. This growth ability may be taken multiple times; its effects stack.
Off-Hand Strength: You may apply the normal effects of Monkey Grip to your off-hand.
Improved Monkey Grip (growth level 3): You may wield weapons two size categories larger than you with less effort than you normally would, albeit at a -4 penalty. You may wield light weapons as if they were one-handed instead of two-handed, and may wield one-handed weapons as if they were two-handed. You may not wield two-handed weapons that are more than one size category larger than you are.
Greater Monkey Grip: (growth level 4; requires Improved Monkey Grip) You may wield light weapons three size categories larger than you are in both hands, at a -6 penalty to hit.

[Legoman]

The one 'style' of power-attacking is good with one feat, but it only really starts getting powerful with leap attack + shock trooper, etc, with maybe a dip to ranger for favored power attack.

So you're still looking at 3-4 feats to 'round out' the style.

TWF's problem is not that it requires a lot of feats, it's that the feats don't do enough.

[Fax Celestis]

The one 'style' of power-attacking is good with one feat, but it only really starts getting powerful with leap attack + shock trooper, etc, with maybe a dip to ranger for favored power attack.

So you're still looking at 3-4 feats to 'round out' the style.

TWF's problem is not that it requires a lot of feats, it's that the feats don't do enough.

Core-only fighters' THF-Power Attack still far outstrips TWF and is less feat intensive.

[Krellen]

It never ceases to amaze me that people actually think this. I bet you think the monk's flurry of blows is a good ability, too, right?
Once he gets to the point he gets a free, penalty-free attack? Absolutely.

-2 isn't that big an obstacle to overcome in exchange for a doubling of damage output - especially when the Power Attacker has to take an equal or greater hit to accuracy to utilise his feat.

So while Improved and Greater Two Weapon Fighting (and Perfect, if you go that far) may not each be worth an individual feat, the first level of Two Weapon Fighting is still vastly superior to Power Attack; giving them the rest of the tree for free without any change to Power Attack would suddenly make the two-handed fighter as rare as you're bemoaning the two-weapon fighter is.

Example: Bob and Joe are half-orc fighters. Both have 16 Strengths. Bob decides to take Power Attack, while Joe picks Two Weapon Fighting. Bob opts to use a Greataxe, while Joe takes a Orc Double Axe. Bob has an attack bonus of +4, dealing 1d12+4 damage - +3 for 1d12+6 if he utilises his feat. Joe has an attack bonus of +2/+2, dealing 1d8+3/1. Initially, Bob has the advantage, mostly because his weapon does more damage natively.

Let's give them a few levels - up to 4th. They have both taken Weapon Specialisation with their chosen weapon now. Joe's attack bonus is now +6/+6, with damage output of 1d8+5/3: effectively the same as a +6 attack for 2d8+8, once all things are averaged. Bob now has an attack bonus of +8, and deals 1d12+6 damage - or he can Power Attack to match Joe, dropping to a +6 attack bonus dealing 1d12+10. Pretty balanced, since Joe isn't getting any dual-wielding penalties reduced. If he got them reduced by one, Bob would only be able to do 1d12+8 with the same attack bonus, which is slightly inferior to Joe.

What if they were 8th level? Now they have Greater Weapon Focus, for a further accuracy bonus, and 18 Strengths. Joe also picked up Greater Two Weapon Fighting - Bob doesn't have another feat in his chain to pick (other than Cleave and Great Cleave, which don't really affect his damage output.) Joe fights with bonuses of +12/+12/+7/+7, dealing 1d8+6/4 with his attacks; statistically the same as +12/+7 for 2d8+10. Bob's matching attack routine is +12/+7 for 1d12+12 - again about balanced. Of course, if Joe didn't have any penalties to his two weapon fighting any more, he'd have an attack routine of +14/+14/+9/+9 for the same damage, while Bob would go down to a matching routine of +14/+9 for 1d12+8 - clearly inferior.

Of course, if magic comes into the picture, all bets are off; though he has to pay twice as much, Joe can get a +2d6 to damage for every +1d6 Bob enjoys, throwing the parity far out of whack. If both had +1 frost weapons (Joe buying it twice, once for each head), the damage would become 1d12+1d6+13 vs. 2d8+2d6+12. No contest. (At that point, even if Joe used Short Swords and Bob a greatsword, it's 3d6+13 vs. 4d6+12. Still an advantage for Joe. The higher the enhancement bonus, the more grossly uneven the weapons become.)

Note that throughout, Bob's biggest advantage has been the higher base damage of his weapon. If both characters were using d8 weapons, we'd have a very different story.

So currently, the biggest balance is the -2 for Two Weapon Fighting, which had been proposed to be eliminated. If that is eliminated, Power Attack is clearly an inferior choice.

So really, what I'm saying is that Power Attack needs growth too.

[Orzel]

I almost liked the idea...
then you added Monkey Grip

You SOILED it!!

*mind erases*
Great idea. Growing feats.

[Fax Celestis]

Once he gets to the point he gets a free, penalty-free attack? Absolutely.

-2 isn't that big an obstacle to overcome in exchange for a doubling of damage output - especially when the Power Attacker has to take an equal or greater hit to accuracy to utilise his feat.

So while Improved and Greater Two Weapon Fighting (and Perfect, if you go that far) may not each be worth an individual feat, the first level of Two Weapon Fighting is still vastly superior to Power Attack; giving them the rest of the tree for free without any change to Power Attack would suddenly make the two-handed fighter as rare as you're bemoaning the two-weapon fighter is.

Example: Bob and Joe are half-orc fighters. Both have 16 Strengths. Bob decides to take Power Attack, while Joe picks Two Weapon Fighting. Bob opts to use a Greataxe, while Joe takes a Orc Double Axe. Bob has an attack bonus of +4, dealing 1d12+4 damage - +3 for 1d12+6 if he utilises his feat. Joe has an attack bonus of +2/+2, dealing 1d8+3/1. Initially, Bob has the advantage, mostly because his weapon does more damage natively.

Let's give them a few levels - up to 4th. They have both taken Weapon Specialisation with their chosen weapon now. Joe's attack bonus is now +6/+6, with damage output of 1d8+5/3: effectively the same as a +6 attack for 2d8+8, once all things are averaged. Bob now has an attack bonus of +8, and deals 1d12+6 damage - or he can Power Attack to match Joe, dropping to a +6 attack bonus dealing 1d12+10. Pretty balanced, since Joe isn't getting any dual-wielding penalties reduced. If he got them reduced by one, Bob would only be able to do 1d12+8 with the same attack bonus, which is slightly inferior to Joe.

What if they were 8th level? Now they have Greater Weapon Focus, for a further accuracy bonus, and 18 Strengths. Joe also picked up Greater Two Weapon Fighting - Bob doesn't have another feat in his chain to pick (other than Cleave and Great Cleave, which don't really affect his damage output.) Joe fights with bonuses of +12/+12/+7/+7, dealing 1d8+6/4 with his attacks; statistically the same as +12/+7 for 2d8+10. Bob's matching attack routine is +12/+7 for 1d12+12 - again about balanced. Of course, if Joe didn't have any penalties to his two weapon fighting any more, he'd have an attack routine of +14/+14/+9/+9 for the same damage, while Bob would go down to a matching routine of +14/+9 for 1d12+8 - clearly inferior.

Of course, if magic comes into the picture, all bets are off; though he has to pay twice as much, Joe can get a +2d6 to damage for every +1d6 Bob enjoys, throwing the parity far out of whack. If both had +1 frost weapons (Joe buying it twice, once for each head), the damage would become 1d12+1d6+13 vs. 2d8+2d6+12. No contest. (At that point, even if Joe used Short Swords and Bob a greatsword, it's 3d6+13 vs. 4d6+12. Still an advantage for Joe. The higher the enhancement bonus, the more grossly uneven the weapons become.)

Note that throughout, Bob's biggest advantage has been the higher base damage of his weapon. If both characters were using d8 weapons, we'd have a very different story.

So currently, the biggest balance is the -2 for Two Weapon Fighting, which had been proposed to be eliminated. If that is eliminated, Power Attack is clearly an inferior choice.

So really, what I'm saying is that Power Attack needs growth too.

And it will. This takes time, you know.

[Krellen]

And it will. This takes time, you know.
Oh, I know. I just wanted to make sure it was kept in mind, and then someone laughed at me for bringing it up, so, you know, I had to back myself up. No harm, right? :smallbiggrin:

[Indon]

You know, if you upgrade some feats to this, you're going to need to upgrade most if not all of them, or they won't be able to compete.

I'm not sure on the level of power for this one, I think it might still be a bit weak (mostly due to the growth number). But, oh, well.

I'd like to propose a third category of Evolving traits, based on hit die/class level progression: Generic feats.

Iron Will [Evolving Generic]
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Will saving throws.
Growth Number: 4
Growth: You get an additional +1 bonus on all Will saving throws.
Alternatively, you may choose from the following special abilities:
Magical Resistance: (growth level 1): You gain a +2 bonus to all will saving throws against spells or spell-like effects.
Fearless: (growth level 1): You gain a +3 bonus to saving throws against fear effects.
Self-Command: (growth level 2): You gain a +3 bonus to saving throws against Compulsion spells and effects.
Resolution: (growth level 2): You gain a +3 bonus to saving throws against Charm spells and effects.
Resolute Constitution: (growth level 3): You may make saving throws against poisons as Will saves, rather than Fortitude saves.

[Fax Celestis]

You know, if you upgrade some feats to this, you're going to need to upgrade most if not all of them, or they won't be able to compete.

That's the plan.

[Evil Pilotfish]

You guys may want to check out Iron Heroes and The Book of Iron Might for inspiration if you haven't yet as they both have similar scaling or evolving feats.

[Szatany]

Self-Command: (growth level 2): You gain a +3 bonus to saving throws against spells and effects from the Compulsion subschool of the Enchantment school.


You don't have to make it so convulted. You can just say:

Self-Command: (growth level 2): You gain a +3 bonus on saving throws against compulsion effects.

Same with charm of course.

[Yuki Akuma]

Generic feats. Good idea. Thanks Indon!

[Orzel]

What about the less "straight numbers" feats?

Combat Expertise [Evolving Generic]
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit
When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.
Growth Number: 3
Growth: Choose from one of the following abilities
Improved Disarm: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to disarm an opponent, nor does the opponent have a chance to disarm you. You also gain a +4 bonus on the opposed attack roll you make to disarm your opponent.
Improved Feint:You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action.
Improved Trip: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.
Whirlwind Attack: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack special attack, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
Greater Combat Expertise: You gain a +2 bonus on the opposed attack rolls you make to disarm your opponent, Strength checks to trip your opponent, and Bluff checks to feint in combat.

Special
At 6th level, a monk may select Improved Trip as a bonus feature, even if she does not have the prerequisites.


Bwah?

[Yuki Akuma]

Combat Expertise really should be a Warrior feat...

[akira72703]

Monte Cook has a system for evolving feats in his Iron Heroes System that covers all of the basic feats in the Players Handbook you might wanna check it out for inspiration etc.

[jlousivy]

Krellen--remember if you weild the weapon 2 handed he gets a 2:1 ratio for dmg:penalty to hit, and he can apply 1.5x his str bonus to damage. In addition the TWF person needs a base dex of 19 in order to get to GTWF so he probably won't have such a nice stat in STR. The higher the STR Bonus the further and further THF trumps TWF. (sure ranger can ignore dex requirements, but it is generally concidered an underpowered class)
That is the argument for THF>TWF. However yes, if you have several very high stats so you may have a high dex and str (and still have some for con) TWF is a decent/good choice. Also if your DM allows enhancement bonuses of over +5 TWF becomes more useful
As for Power Attack scaling, maybe take a note from the frenzied barbarian with the 1:1--> 1.5:1 --> 2:1, however by doing this you remove one of the main features of the class.

As for TWF just have it cost one feat for all 3. Now there isn't the complaint of it taking three feats in order to stay close-to-par with the THF.

[Krellen]

I'd also argue for lowering the dex requirements for TWF, because, honestly, 15/17/19 is ridiculous.

But I know why those are in place. They're to keep dual-wielding rogues in check, who gain nearly infinite more benefit from the extra attacks over fighters. TWF can't just be balanced for fighter vs. fighter; it also needs to be balanced for fighter vs. rogue.

[Fax Celestis]

I'd also argue for lowering the dex requirements for TWF, because, honestly, 15/17/19 is ridiculous.

But I know why those are in place. They're to keep dual-wielding rogues in check, who gain nearly infinite more benefit from the extra attacks over fighters. TWF can't just be balanced for fighter vs. fighter; it also needs to be balanced for fighter vs. rogue.

Except, with his lower BAB, the rogue hits far less.

But lets save the debate for elsewhere.

[Deepblue706]

Neato idea, Yuki. I look forward to seeing more.